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Aired May 30, 2005 - 20:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: If your loved one goes missing, or worse, becomes a crime victim and police hit a dead-end, what do you do to solve the mystery? Just how far would you go? Would you seek out a psychic?
Tonight, incredible stories of psychics who crack cases and solve crimes when police give up.
Like most lawyers, when I try cases, I want the cold hard facts. And if you`re like most of us, you`re skeptical about psychics. But when police hit a dead-end, when the trail goes cold, they turn to psychic detectives. The results, incredible.
One of them, Peggy Goble`s sister, raped and bludgeoned to death 1987. When police were stumped, psychic Nancy Weber helped them catch a killer.
Welcome, ladies. Thank you for being with us.
First of all, I want to go straight to our so-called psychic, Nancy Weber. When did you first believe or realize that you are psychic?
NANCY WEBER, PSYCHIC DETECTIVE: I didn`t use that term as a child. I didn`t know. I knew it as an adult when I worked in an acute psychiatric unit in the South Bronx.
GRACE: As a nurse?
WEBER: As a nurse. I ran the unit and it was a wonderful group that let me do it.
GRACE: You were a nurse that ran a unit.
WEBER: In acute crisis intervention for psychotic breaks.
GRACE: You know, Nancy, so many people -- have you ever read Harry Potter?
WEBER: I love Harry Potter.
GRACE: I love Harry Potter. Do you remember the teacher in Harry Potter that teaches how to cast spells and read the future? Woo, crazy. That`s what I think of when I think of a psychic. When you walked in, in a business suit, I nearly fell over.
WEBER: Well, that`s what I used to think psychics were, and that` why I was terrified of it. And I didn`t want to be part of that world. So I never labeled it.
When I worked as a young nurse, before I got into psychiatric nursing, the doctors were wonderful to me. So if I had a patient in a medical unit brought in, and they were rolled in, and the doctor`s writing orders, and the doctor writes a diagnosis of congestive heart failure, and I go, "I`m 19 years old," and I look at him, I go, "Wrong orders."
He goes, "What?" I said, "He doesn`t have congestive heart failure." Do an upper G.I. He has got a hiatal hernia. And he goes, "Really?" And I go, "Absolutely." And he goes, "OK." Orders it, comes back, and he goes, "Thanks." And he goes, "How did you know?" And I said, "You don`t see it?"
GRACE: Now, you said that you grew up just thinking everybody else felt and saw the same thing.
WEBER: There`s no way a child knows that you`re different. If you`re deaf when you`re a child, you don`t know the other people can hear. When you can see things others cannot see, you don`t know others cannot see it. How would you know? The only way I knew it...
GRACE: What was your first experience that you can recall? Like most people, you ask them, what`s the first thing you remember? And they remember, you know, the Christmas tree or trick-or-treating. You probably remember a psychic vision.
WEBER: You`re psychic yourself, because you know that.
GRACE: What`s the first thing?
WEBER: The first thing I recall, I was about two-and-a-half years old. My mother had a friend visiting her. And I looked at her, and I saw in her belly a little thing. I didn`t know what it was.
And this voice said to me, "It`s a baby." And I went, "Baby." And the woman looks at my mother and said, "I haven`t told my husband yet. How does she know?" And I never forgot that because my mother`s response to that was, "Go in your room!" And I thought, "But it`s a baby."
GRACE: Well, lucky for the rest of us, you didn`t stop your career right then and there at, what, age 3 or 4?
WEBER: Thank you, Nancy.
GRACE: Then what happened?
WEBER: I continued blurting out things for quite a while. Everyone backed away every so often I would blurt out. And I saw death a lot.
And when I saw "Sixth Sense," I identified with him very much, the little boy, other than he had a mom who understood. And my mom was very frightened of it. My father didn`t say anything about it.
And when my sister was pregnant with her second child, I must have been about 15, that was the last incident. When I looked at her, I woke up in the morning, ran to see my sister and my brother-in-law and I said, "You`re going to give birth tomorrow" -- that was Monday morning -- "at 2:56 p.m. to a 7-pound-11-and-a-half blonde boy." And they said, "Oh, good, because they believed me."
And she went to the doctor that day and came home. She said, "You`re wrong. I`ve got weeks to go." And so Tuesday morning, her water broke and she rushed to the hospital.
WEBER: Yes. And the only thing I heard was that the doctor ran out and said, "Burn your sister at the stake, she`s a witch." So do you think you`d rush in and do all this?
I went into nursing. It was nice, and practical, and grounding, and safe. And I am so grateful I became a nurse first.
GRACE: Here on the set with me is Peggy Goble. Peggy is a crime victim. Her sister was raped and bludgeoned to death back in 1987.
This a shot of the victim, Elizabeth Cornish (ph). She was just 42- years-old, in the prime of her life. And catch this. Elizabeth had five kids left behind after her death.
PEGGY GOBLE, HELPED BY PSYCHIC DETECTIVE: Thank you.
GRACE: How did you hook up with Nancy?
GOBLE: I had my own housecleaning business back then. And one of the ladies that I cleaned for, her name was Gloria, gave me Nancy`s name. Nancy, you lived in Flanders (ph) at that time. And I called her up, set up an appointment.
GRACE: But why?
GOBLE: To help, because after my sister was murdered, they didn`t know who murdered her. We were all scared. You know, my family, my nieces, we were all scared to death.
GRACE: What were the facts surrounding Elizabeth`s disappearance? Well, her murder, because they found her fairly quickly, right?
GOBLE: Well, she was killed anywhere between 11:00 and 2:00 in the morning. And they didn`t find her until her boyfriend found her the next day.
GOBLE: In the evening.
GRACE: So the mystery was not where is she, what became of her? Instead, the mystery was, who killed her?
GRACE: Was this before DNA?
GOBLE: Before DNA, yes.
GRACE: Right, I thought so. Because I was trying cases in `87, and DNA was not advanced to the point where it was being used in rape cases.
GRACE: She was raped and bludgeoned to death.
GOBLE: Yes, she was.
GRACE: And that DNA would have easily matched up to the defendant, but it didn`t exist then.
GOBLE: No, it didn`t.
GRACE: So why were police stumped? Normally, they start with the husband, the boyfriend, the grocery boy. What happened?
GOBLE: Well, that`s what they did. That`s what they did. But it just -- it seemed like forever. You know what I mean? Just every day would go by, did they catch him yet? I would call everyday, did they get him yet? Did they get him yet? Did they get him yet?
So that`s why I went to Nancy. And she was just so helpful to me. And she helped solve the crime.
GRACE: What did police think when you told them you were going to seek out a psychic detective?
GOBLE: Well, they knew Nancy. So they were very pleased with it.
GRACE: Had you worked with the police before?
WEBER: Five years before, the same police officers. The prosecutor`s office in Warren County on a still-unsolved-until-today case.
GRACE: Wow. So they thought she had a good reputation?
GRACE: When you told cops you were calling her, they went along?
GOBLE: Absolutely, yes.
GRACE: How soon after contacting Nancy Weber was the case solved?
GOBLE: I don`t even remember.
GRACE: Do you remember?
GOBLE: I don`t recall.
GRACE: Hold on.
GRACE: I`ll give you -- a couple of days?
GRACE: I`m going to give you a moment to percolate. We`ll check back into it.
We`re taking a quick break. But I want to tell you quickly, if you are a crime victim, if you know of an injustice or a case that needs the spotlight, please call 1-888-GRACE-01, 888-472-2301, or e-mail us at Nancygrace@CNN.com. Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WEBER: My comment, immediately, as soon as I hear those words, is "Don`t give me any information." That way, I know that whatever I am getting is coming from intuitive and psychic faculties and not assumptions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WEBER: Let me describe the murderer to you. He`s got reddish brown hair, about 5`10". He`s got a scar on the right cheek, wears a western belt buckle. That`s special for him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Tonight, unsolved crimes, missing people, when the case goes cold, no leads, no witnesses, no fingerprints, no DNA, where do you go? What do you do?
Well, there is sometimes a last resort, so-called psychic detectives. Are they working miracles or just plain frauds?
Welcome back to NANCY GRACE. Let`s go straight to a so-called psychic detective here in the studio with me, not only Peggy Goble, a crime victim who lost her sister many years ago at the hands of a murderer, and psychic Nancy Weber.
Nancy, back to that time, back to 1987, when Peggy first contacted you, what do you do first?
WEBER: She came to me. I didn`t know what she was coming about. I tell people, "Don`t tell me." I sat opposite her, and I felt overwhelmed by horrible feelings of grief.
So the first thing I did was say to her that I felt that there was a tragedy in her family, recent loss, and it happened in a horrible way. And Peggy started crying. And we spoke.
I don`t remember the words I said to her or the words she said. But I talked about the idea that the suspect, the chief suspect, would be her boyfriend, but he was not guilty, and that I could not tell her anything else about the...
GRACE: The chief suspect would be victim Elizabeth`s boyfriend?
GRACE: OK. Was he the chief suspect at the time?
GRACE: That`s not unusual. Police normally look at husband, boyfriend, lover.
WEBER: And I told her that I could not tell her anything about the case itself, that if she would please go back and speak to whoever`s working the case, and I will give her police references and names for them to call and verify who I am, because they didn`t know who it would be, and that I would be happy to help out.
And I got a call immediately, I think the next day, from then-Captain David Heater out of the prosecutor`s office. And I recognized the voice and the name from five years before, when I worked on a case of an unsolved murder.
GRACE: And then what happened?
WEBER: And he asked me if I would come out. And I went to the crime scene. It was still a crime scene. And as I walked in, it was a first- floor apartment. And at the landing to the first floor, I looked up the staircase and I said, "The murderer lives upstairs." And he looked at me and he said, "Well, there`s a 19-year-old." I said, "No, it`s a not him. There`s an adult"...
GRACE: Wait, wait. You walked into the building...
WEBER: The apartment building, the landing. And I saw up the stairs a sense of a murderer. I didn`t see anything. I saw energy that told me, "It`s the murderer up there." And then I got a vision, as I walked into Elizabeth`s living room, where I saw 5`10", reddish brown hair, scar on his right cheek, western belt buckle.
And I went to the bedroom -- I didn`t tell them at the time -- went to the bedroom where she was murdered. And I described the rape and the murder in details. And they looked at me, and true to how sometimes they would speak, they would say, "Confirm. Confirm. Confirm."
I said, "OK, let`s go back to headquarters and talk." So we went back. And I went over what I felt was the murderer. And I said, "He killed her probably around 3:00 a.m. or so." And they said, "No, she was killed around 11:00." I said, "No, she was killed around 3:00."
And they looked at me and said, "Well, there`s a man living upstairs." I said, "First name John?" They said, "Yes." I said, "Last name begins with the letter r, single syllable?" They said Reece (ph) is his last name. I said, "That`s him."
And they looked at me and said, "Do you remember speaking about him before?" I said, "No, but he`s a serial murderer, and he`s tried to kill before and he`s killed before."
GRACE: Now, what she could not possibly know at the time is that Reece passed a polygraph.
GOBLE: He did. Yes, he passed a polygraph.
GRACE: He passed a polygraph, but you believed he was a killer. And listen, I`m a great believer in polygraphs. OK, go ahead.
WEBER: And they were, too, because they had the expert in the state, Jerry Luggs (ph), who had never made a mistake. And he was wonderful. And they said, "But he passed a polygraph."
GRACE: But let me guess. Based on the incorrect time of death, they asked the wrong questions, so he could give a truthful answer and pass the polygraph?
WEBER: Exactly. Exactly. And then Dave or somebody else looked at me and said, "You`re describing him again, for the second time in five years." I said, "Well, he is." And I said, "But it`s him." And they said, "Well, he doesn`t have a scar here. He doesn`t wear a western belt buckle."
And I looked at them and I said, "You`re blind. Go back and look." I said, "And if he does, then think about what I just said, please." So they went back and looked, and saw the scar and saw the western belt buckle. And then the autopsy came back -- it was about ten days after death -- and it showed she died, I think, at 3:15 a.m. And they looked at each other.
GRACE: And of course, they determine that by the last meal or degree of morbidity in the limbs?
WEBER: Right. Exactly. And so Dave Heater and Sergeant Tom Trainer (ph) from the state police decided to bring him back in. And they brought him back in. They videoed it. They had no evidence.
I told them that there would be a hammer that she was killed with and that it would be in a swamp. I drew where the swamp was. They went and found a hammer with blood on it. It wasn`t her blood. Nobody ever did anything to find out if it matched anything else.
GRACE: But they found the hammer?
WEBER: And he lived upstairs.
GRACE: Did he ever confess?
WEBER: Fully, on video.
GRACE: OK. Just taking a psychic`s word of her own abilities, if I did that, I would not be a good trial lawyer.
GRACE: Let`s corroborate. Trust, but confirm. True?
GRACE: Had you ever used a psychic before?
GRACE: Did you even believe in psychics before?
GOBLE: Some what.
GRACE: If you`re like me, I really don`t know what to believe, because as a trial lawyer, I knew that evidence would not come into trial anyway. So I never concerned myself with it. But thank god, in this case, Peggy Goble did concern herself with seeking out a psychic in the murder case of her sister, Elizabeth Cornish. It was solved.
Stay with us for more incredible stories.
GRACE: Welcome back to NANCY GRACE. Thank you for being with us tonight.
Listen, I know it`s a tough pill to swallow that psychics really existed. In all the years I tried case, I never once put a psychic on the stand, didn`t even consider it. But if you don`t believe the ladies I`ve already introduced to you, crime victim Peggy Goble, whose sister was bludgeoned to death after a sexual assault, and the psychic, Nancy Weber, that cracked the case, maybe you`ll listen to a retired detective sergeant from Morris County, New Jersey.
Joining me now, retired Detective Sergeant Lou Masterbone. Thank you for being with us, sir.
LOU MASTERBONE, FMR. DETECTIVE SERGEANT, MORRIS COUNTY SHERIFF`S DEPARTMENT: Thank for having me, ma`am. It`s an honor.
GRACE: You know what? I think I along with a lot of other Americans have a hard time believing psychics are the real deal. What about you?
MASTERBONE: I didn`t believe in them at all.
GRACE: What changed your mind?
MASTERBONE: We found three kids in Honolulu, Hawaii.
GRACE: In where? Hold on. Hold on. What?
MASTERBONE: We found three children from a missing -- parental abduction case in Honolulu, Hawaii.
GRACE: What happened? Now, was this the case you worked with Nancy Weber?
MASTERBONE: Yes, it is.
GRACE: From the beginning, what happened?
MASTERBONE: Well, the mother called me and said, would I go to a psychic? And I was very skeptical about it, because I didn`t believe in them. And I said, "Well, we`ve done everything else. We have to do this."
So I called a couple of friends of mine who were police officers who had used her before. And they gave me the green light and said, yes, they would recommend her. So the mother and I went up to the house and went upstairs. And I`m saying, "What am I doing here?" And we walked into this room and...
GRACE: Now, wait a minute. You said the mother and you. Was Nancy Weber with you?
MASTERBONE: Yes, well, she -- we went to Nancy`s house.
GRACE: Oh, OK. OK.
MASTERBONE: I`m sorry. We went to Nancy`s house. She took us upstairs, and we sat on a couch. And she brought the children`s shoes, and a piece of -- and some photographs, and some clothing. And we just sat there, and talked, and talked.
GRACE: Hey, you know what, Detective? That must have been heartbreaking for the mom, to be holding her kids` clothing and shoes, and you`re to a point where you have to seek out a psychic. You know, it`s your last resort. You`re hanging on to a thread there, when you hand over a shoe to a psychic.
MASTERBONE: Absolutely. I mean, we went everywhere. We couldn`t -- there`s nothing left to do.
GRACE: So then what happened?
MASTERBONE: So we started talking and talking. And I`m really skeptical of this whole thing. And then she started talking about, that she found -- she says, "I see them in Ulysses, Texas."
And I looked at her and I said...
GRACE: Ulysses, Texas? I`ve never even -- look, I`m from Macon, Georgia, and I have not heard of Ulysses, Texas. Go ahead.
MASTERBONE: Well, we had a -- we were following the kids` school records, OK? And it stopped in Ulysses, Texas. And I almost fell out of the chair.
GRACE: When she nailed Ulysses, Texas, OK.
MASTERBONE: I fell right out of the chair. And then she said to me, "From there, they went to California. And it starts with an r." And I said, "Nancy, you know, California`s a big state. I`m sure there`s many cities with r`s." And I asked her three or four times. She was getting aggravated at me at that time.
GRACE: Yes, I have already picked up she`s got a little mean streak. OK, go ahead.
MASTERBONE: A little bit. Not big. So the dog came in. And it just so happened the dog`s name was Ramona. It was weird. The dog sat on her lap and on her feet. She says, "Ramona, California."
GRACE: Had you ever met the dog?
WEBER: I had a dog named Ramona. And she was sleeping...
GRACE: Your dog -- your dog came in?
WEBER: Right. And he kept asking me, what town? What town? I gave him the name of a street.
WEBER: No, I didn`t even get that. And it was about...
GRACE: East street? East street?
WEBER: Again with an e, the letter e. And I could see water and sand. And about four hours into this, I`m like, "Would they all leave?" And he asks me one more time. And Ramona looks up at me. And I go, "Ramona," thinking she needed something. He goes, "Ramona? Ramona, California?" And I look at her, and I look at him, and I said, "Right, Ramona, California."
GRACE: What happened then, Detective?
MASTERBONE: Well, the next morning I got on the phone. And I called the San Diego Police Department, the sheriff`s department. And they did nothing.
I believe the mother called. And then I called again. And they went over. And they went out to the -- and they found this house, 1225 East Street. And it just so happens they talked to a neighbor, and the neighbor gave them a forwarding address to them for Honolulu, Hawaii. I almost fell on the floor.
And with that, I went to Judge Shelton, one of our judges in Morris County Courthouse, who`s a wonderful human being. And he knew about this case in the beginning. And I said, "Judge, I need a warrant to extradite for Hawaii."
GRACE: And it`s all based on a psychic?
MASTERBONE: Yes, ma`am.
GRACE: How did the judge react to that surprise?
MASTERBONE: He was a little shocked. He looked at me and said, "Are you sure, Louie?" I said, "Your honor, I have got the address in Honolulu." With that, he wrote out the warrant.
And I called out to Hawaii and spoke to Angel Yurimato (ph). I`ll never forget the man`s name. And he said, "You will extradite?" And I said, "Yes, sir. I will." And we (INAUDIBLE) him over the warrant.
GRACE: Did you get the kids back?
MASTERBONE: Yes, ma`am.
GRACE: Wow, Detective Masterbone, don`t move. You remind me of every homicide detective and investigator I ever worked with, every good thing about them. Don`t you move.
Quick break. Here at NANCY GRACE, we want desperately to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Tonight, take a look at Robert Armfield, 38-year-old long-haul trucker from Loutowissie, Georgia (ph). Armfield shot dead inside his truck, November 8, 2002, Illinois.
If you have any information on Robert Armfield, please call the Carole Sund Carrington Foundation, 1-888-813-8389. Could be a reward in connection to the Armfield case. Please help us.
GRACE: If you`re like most of us, you may be skeptical about psychics. Well, maybe tonight, you`ll change your mind. And listen, I don`t have a dog in the fight, no skin in the game. So when you hear these stories, they will at least make you stop and wonder.
Joining us now, two new guests. A family friend of a set of victims, Vashti Apostol-Hurst is with us. She was to a point she felt that it was necessary to call on a psychic, Laurie McQuary. Thank you for being with us, ladies. Let me quickly go to Vashti Apostol-Hurst. Tell me what happened.
VASHTI APOSTOL-HURST, HIRED PSYCHIC TO HELP LOCATE PLANE CRASH VICTIMS: Hi. Thank you, Nancy, for addressing this important and critical topic. In the spring of 1992, Lila Fehler (ph) and Alan Hernandez (ph) and their son, Jonathan, experienced the unimaginable tragedy of losing the three -- other three children in the family and Lila`s brother in a plane accident.
GRACE: So the three kids and their uncle?
APOSTOL-HURST: Yes. The uncle had flown in from California to visit the family, and the children had wanted to go up in the plane with him. And when they didn`t return, obviously, the panic started to set in. And they went through ten grueling days with dozens of friends and hundreds of individuals, family and people they didn`t even know, the Flathead Indian tribe, police, helicopters, searchers, hikers desperately trying to find the plane that went down in the treacherous mountains of Saint Ignatius, Montana.
GRACE: So the search ensued. No one could find the plane, the uncle, the three kids. And they just went up basically for a joyride, a sight- seeing trip to have fun with the uncle, who was a pilot, right?
APOSTOL-HURST: That`s right. And in these particular mountains, we were later told that there were downdrafts, and if you weren`t familiar with that, it was -- could be treacherous. And he -- we ended up finding, afterwards, that he got caught in a downdraft and the plane flipped and...
GRACE: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Are you telling me, basically, the whole family was -- they had three kids, and they were all gone?
APOSTOL-HURST: They had four children, and their eldest son, Jonathan, was not there at the time.
GRACE: So after the search ensued, Vashti, did people finally give up on a search?
APOSTOL-HURST: You know, it was -- it was amazing how Lila and Alan and Jonathan survived this. And the local authorities gave up much sooner than they did. And the helicopter that was hired to go up was $500 an hour, so there was a constant need for friends and family, as well as this Indian tribe, who was the first to donate $4,000 to get the helicopters up and actually sent members of their tribe to hike into these mountains and...
GRACE: So money became and issue, and the search was starting to end. What prompted you to seek out a psychic?
APOSTOL-HURST: Laurie McQuary has been doing this for years, and I commend her as being a pioneer in her field because she has brought comfort to hundreds of people who have, you know, tragically lost their loved ones. And we were all desperate to find these children. Of course, initially, there was hope that they would survive. It was in the spring. But there were also fears...
GRACE: So how did you find Laurie McQuary? What prompted you to finally seek out a psychic?
APOSTOL-HURST: Because there was -- no one was having any success. And I knew that this family could not survive putting closure on whatever happened to the children, if they weren`t found, without knowing what happened, and...
APOSTOL-HURST: And so I contacted Laurie.
GRACE: Let me go to Laurie McQuary. She`s joining us out of Portland. Laurie, do you remember getting that call?
LAURIE MCQUARY, PSYCHIC DETECTIVE: Oh, yes, I do.
GRACE: What happened?
MCQUARY: Well, what happened, of course, is that I gotten an immediate impression of where these children and their uncle might be. And being a mother myself, like any of us would, my compassion was at its height and I wanted so badly -- I wished I had lived closer. In fact, I was on my way, at one point, to go up there and physically help search, which I have done in many searches.
GRACE: So you get the phone call, and then what happened?
MCQUARY: Well, I talked to Steven Thomas (ph), who was one of the main searchers. And I had at that point been given a map of the area, and I marked it, told him where I thought that these children and their uncle might be. And as often happens, the people who were given the information said they`d searched that area, they couldn`t possibly be there because it was box canyon. The pilot too experienced to know to fly in there. And I just -- I have to stick to my guns. As most psychics will tell you, when we get our first impression, we know it`s generally right. So they didn`t go search that area immediately because the people who were in charge of the search decided that that area had been covered and there was no point...
GRACE: When you saw -- when you told them the area to go to, Laurie, what prompted you to name that? Did you have a vision? Did you hear a voice? What told to you tell them to go there?
GRACE: No, I see it more just like a replay of a television set in my head.
GRACE: What did you see??
APOSTOL-HURST: It`s a knowing. It`s a feeling. Well, I look at the map. And when I look at a map and I`m looking for a missing person, that area literally jumps out at me. And this was the St. Mary Lake area, and I told him immediately on the phone. I drew it on the map, and I said, This is where they`re at, period. And like I said...
GRACE: What happened...
APOSTOL-HURST: ... even though that had been checked, I said, Go back. You`ve missed them. And they didn`t do it for several days, and when they finally right back, that`s exactly where they found them.
GRACE: Vashti, were you surprised when the family was found? Were they dead or alive?
APOSTOL-HURST: What was amazing was it was -- I got a phone call, and they said, Vashti, they`re calling off the search. And I said, They can`t do that. Let me call Laurie again, and I`ll get right back to you. And I called Laurie, and I said, They`re going to call of the search. That can`t happen, Laurie, where are they?
And it was amazing. The specific instructions she gave me were exactly where the children were found. She said, Vashti, tell them to fly over St. Mary`s Lake. And the pilot -- the father was exhausted. The father and the son had been using this particular helicopter. The father was exhausted. And she said, The father will probably be too tired to go. The son will go with a co-pilot. And as he turns left -- as he turns, he will look left over his shoulder and see the sun gleaming off the wing of the plane.
And that is exactly what happened. He went up. They didn`t want to go up again. They went up. As he turned left, he saw the sun glinting on a Cessna plane. I believe it was white. It was upside-down in the snow. The children and the uncle had died on impact and were still buckled in their seats.
And what was amazing, when some of the Indians, hikers, went back up along with the family members, they said that it was remarkable that the snow was so pristine, that there were no animal tracks around the plane.
GRACE: What an incredible story. As you are hearing from Laurie McQuary and Vashti Apostol-Hurst, the family was found. They died upon impact, but at least some closure was given to the children`s parents. Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP - COURT TV "PSYCHIC DETECTIVES")
MCQUARY: A psychic is a person who has the same abilities everybody else has. We all hear, taste, feel, but not very many people pay attention to that intuitive voice inside. My recognition of psychic gift, talent, however you want to put it, came to me pretty dramatically. At 18, I had a horse injury. I fell from a horse and cracked my head open, and I was in a semi-coma for three weeks. Coming out of that coma, I began having dreams about plane crashes that actually occurred three days after I dreamed about them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP - COURT TV "PSYCHIC DETECTIVES")
NOREEN RENIER, PSYCHIC: I need something to connect me with them, perhaps an item they used to wear or use, a hairbrush, a wallet. And I can sort of play back the film of what happened. But as a police psychic, I want to get information related to the crime, so I`ve programmed my mind, when I touch an object, what I need to see.
When I was young, I had no inclination to my intuitive ability. So when it did surface, it was just like landing on the moon. I had no idea that my mind could do such a thing. And I think I became obsessed with it, trying to see if it really would work.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It did. For over 25 years, psychic consultant Noreen Renier has cracked cases for law enforcement agencies around the country, including the FBI. And yet her sixth sense remains a history, even to her.
RENIER: The skeptics say, But how does it work? How does it work? And my answer usually to the skeptics is, You use your usual logical, rational thinking mind all the time. Tell me how it works, how you read, how you spell. You can`t, and neither can I. But I can use my mind, and so can you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can a psychic jump-start a stalled investigation?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. You may recognize the face and the voice of psychic Noreen Renier. She became well-known after the Scott Peterson trial, when Jackie Peterson hired Renier to find Laci Peterson. Unfortunately, the Peterson family didn`t like what Noreen Renier had to say.
Also with me, Joe Uribe, agent in the Montana Division of Criminal Investigation, Noreen Renier, psychic detective, and Janis Amatuzio, forensic pathologist from Minnesota.
Joe Uribe, how did you get connected to Noreen Renier? What happened in the case?
JOE URIBE, MONTANA DIVISION OF CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION: Well, I was involved in the case at the Montana state workers compensation employment auditor. He was going to audit a business up in Shelby, Montana, and he disappeared right after meeting with the client up there. Eight days later, his body was found nine miles out of Shelby. He was killed, put in his car and pushed off a cliff. And we were called in, initially, in 1989, to do the investigation, and I actually became involved in it in 1994.
GRACE: Wow. You got involved in `94. And what led you to Noreen Renier?
URIBE: Well, The case was well investigated by the local authorities and our previous agents who were down there. They did everything possible to try and find out what happened with Walter. They had a suspect. They had all the things, all the elements, but they didn`t have enough to quite make the case.
I had been involved and called back in to review the case. And when I did so, I thought the investigators did such a good job, I really didn`t know what more we could do. And by a fluke -- one night, I wasn`t feeling very good, I went home and I turned on the TV and I happened to see a television program. In our particular case, with our victim, he was murdered, put in the trunk of his state car and pushed over a cliff. Well, this program that I saw featured a psychic who solved a case about a man that was murdered, put in the trunk of a car and pushed over a cliff. And it just caught my attention, and I had to know more about this person.
GRACE: And that person Noreen Renier?
URIBE: That was Noreen Renier. She was the psychic involved in that.
GRACE: You contacted Noreen Renier. What did she do?
URIBE: Right. Well, I didn`t -- I didn`t believe in psychics. I never have believed in them. But as I said, this was so odd that I had to find out about it. So I called -- actually, it was "Unsolved Mysteries." I called them and got ahold of Noreen through them, and I asked her for some people I could contact to see what references, if you will. And in checking references, I checked six different agencies, and they all highly recommended her, so I contacted her.
GRACE: What happened?
URIBE: And I ended up going down to Florida for a psychic consultation, I guess you call them. And what we did during our consultation was, the first thing I wanted her to do, because I had seen on one of these programs, to have -- possibly pick out a picture of our killer. And we brought some pictures along that weren`t our suspect and put them all face down. And sure enough, she picked out the picture of the individual who was our prime suspect.
GRACE: Hey, Joe? Joe?
GRACE: how many pictures did you show her?
URIBE: I believe -- well, there were, I think, six pictures face down on table. And she picked out the one that she -- I asked her, Which one do you think was our killer, and she picked out the right picture.
GRACE: Now, question to you, Joe...
URIBE: That got my attention.
GRACE: Joe Uribe, it`s almost like a card game. You put the pictures of your suspects -- what did you say, five or six of them?
GRACE: ... face down and asked her to pick the right one. Did you...
URIBE: That`s correct.
GRACE: Did you give her any item belonging to the suspect to hold or consider?
URIBE: She asked us to bring something from the victim. I brought a watch and key from his state car. And as soon as she took hold of these items, she started seeing visions. And what we were going to do is try and ask her what happened, and we basically knew what had happened...
URIBE: ... but we wanted to see if she could confirm it.
GRACE: Very quickly, Joe Uribe...
URIBE: And she immediately started having visions.
GRACE: Very quickly, did you get the killer?
URIBE: We did.
URIBE: She led us to information that only -- I don`t know how she knew these things.
URIBE: In fact, she was ribbing me because I wouldn`t give her any information about the case, and she started laughing. And she says, Well, I guess I`ll have to tell you what happened. And she did. She literally told us about an ambush that took place. There were three people involved in the ambush. Our victim was beaten badly. He had a crescent wrench hit along the side of his head. She had a pain her head during the consultation. And then she said, I was put down on my knees, and now I`m hurting in the back of my head. Well, our victim was in a position down on his knees, and he was shot in the back of the head.
GRACE: The things she was saying was just incredible.
GRACE: Incredible story. Joining me, Joe Uribe, along with Noreen Renier. Very quickly, when we come back, we`re going to Janis Amatuzio. She is a forensic pathologist, believe it or not, a scientist who believes in psychics. Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Florida psychic Noreen Renier has abilities that defy explanation.
RENIER: I feel the pain they feel. One day, it was an arson case. A body was found, and I was the body, and I was alive and I was being burned, and I couldn`t stop.
Sometimes people ask me how many crimes or how many cases I`ve solved. And I always tell them I don`t solve crimes, the police do.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With the case in jeopardy, detectives turn to an unusual source.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: So you still don`t believe in psychic detectives. OK, we`re going to a scientist, Janis Amatuzio out of Minnesota, a forensic pathologist. Tell me why you believe psychics can help a criminal investigation.
JANIS AMATUZIO, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: I think we don`t always know everything yet. I think it`s really important for us to keep an open mind. I always say to my investigators, Make observations, not judgments. There`s so many stories. There`s so many cases that have been discussed. I think that sometimes we have to take the information, trust it and confirm it, as the attorney said earlier today.
GRACE: You know, Janis, it`s so narrow to believe that we, as scientists or lawyers, know everything under the sun. I only knew I couldn`t introduce it into evidence, under the rules of evidence. But to have a narrow mind and not entertain the possibility of what could be, to me, is ridiculous!
AMATUZIO: It`s true. You know, Albert Einstein wrote, The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. And he made some of the greatest discoveries on earth. So I think it`s really important for us to keep that open mind.
GRACE: And Janis, what exactly do you do as a forensic pathologist?
AMATUZIO: I direct death investigation systems for five counties in Minnesota.
GRACE: OK. You know what? If you don`t believe the psychic detectives, if you don`t believe these veteran criminal investigators, homicide investigators, and now a forensic pathologist that believe psychics detectives can help in criminal cases, I give up. I rest my case tonight.
I`m Nancy Grace, signing off for tonight. Thank you to all of my guests. Aren`t they fantastic? Thank you for being with us tonight and inviting us into your homes.
Up next, the news from Headline Prime. But I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp, here on NANCY GRACE. And until then, good night, friend.