Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Live Today

Deep Throat Comes Forward

Aired May 31, 2005 - 11:40   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: This news coming out of Iraq, as well. The president tells CNN that Saddam Hussein's war crimes trial may begin as early as this summer. Jalal Talabani's prediction is at odds with Iraqi prosecutors and their U.S. advisers. They say a trial is unlikely before 2006. Talabani says there's a growing desire among Iraqis to have Saddam executed if convicted.
Live Aid. It made musical history. An impressive mix of singers and rock bands on stage one more time for one concert. We're going to hear from one of its organizers, Bono, just ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAGAN: And this has to do with Watergate and Deep Throat, one of the best kept secrets in the history of journalism. A man now coming forward, admitting to "Vanity Fair" magazine, saying he, indeed, was Deep Throat. The man who 25 years ago continued to give a series of clues to "Washington Post" reporters, Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein as they broke the Watergate story.

That man, Mark Felt, W. Mark Felt. He's now 91 years old. At the time, he was the number two man at the FBI. He is now coming forward, once again, and saying to "Vanity Fair" magazine and giving his story, saying he was the man who spoke to Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein. It is a story and a secret that they have kept to themselves all these years. There have been of guesses over the years.

And, in fact, the guess of it being W. Mark Felt has come up a number of times. But now for the first time he's stepping forward and telling his story, saying he is the one who was Deep Throat. So once again, that's the breaking news. It has to do with one of the best kept secrets in the history of journalism. This man, the guy who was number two at the FBI at this time of Watergate breaking, saying he was Deep Throat.

Our Jeff Toobin, our legal analyst, knows a lot about the story, also this man. Joins us now on the phone to tell us more about what he knows. Jeffrey -- oh, you're there in person. Hello.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Hi, Daryn, how you doing? Here I am.

KAGAN: So do you know W. Mark Felt or you know of him?

TOOBIN: Oh, I know of him. I don't know him. He's been retired for a long time. He's in his 80s. KAGAN: He's 91 -- 91 now.

TOOBIN: Oh, is he 91?

KAGAN: Yes.

TOOBIN: But he has been a long-term suspect of being Deep Throat, I mean, of the people who have studied this. And I consider myself a modest Deep Throat buff, not a great expert. But, you know, remember, the person who is Deep Throat was somewhat an outsider to the Nixon administration. That's why the suspects did not include many people who were in the inner circle in the White House.

And Mark Felt, as the number two person in the FBI, had access to a lot of information, but he was not a Nixon loyalist. So that's why he was a prime candidate from the very beginning.

KAGAN: Well, and interesting that you used the word suspect, because here is a man who was giving this government information to the two "Washington Post" reporters, Carl Bernstein and Bob Woodward. But were any crimes broken in what he did?

TOOBIN: Well, I don't think so. I mean, it's not a crime to leak information that is not classified. And Watergate didn't have much to do with classified information. It certainly was a violation of government procedures. But, you know, we reporters rely on people to leak to us and give us information that their bosses don't want them to do. So I use suspect not in a negative sense of criminal wrongdoing, but suspect in terms of just this guessing game of who was the person who played such an important role in the Watergate story and thus in Richard Nixon's resignation from office.

KAGAN: It was a story that brought down a presidential administration. And once again, it was the Nixon's administration's effort, this massive campaign to cover up the obstruction of justice of the Watergate break-in.

TOOBIN: Right. And if you remember -- and this is particularly vividly portrayed in the great movie version of "All The President's Men," where you'll recall Hal Holbrook played Deep Throat. And the thing that he always said to Woodward and Bernstein was, follow the money, follow the money. And it was through the control of the slush funds that Woodward and Bernstein uncovered, you know, how they -- they learned who controlled the slush funds that ultimately went to pay the Watergate burglars and pay for the various cover-ups. That was how the story was broken, and it was Deep Throat who kept pressing Woodward and Bernstein to follow the money.

KAGAN: And again, this would be I think the classic example of the cover-up being worse than the crime.

TOOBIN: Absolutely. I mean, one of the many mysteries of Watergate that have never been really solved -- and it's funny, people always forget about this -- is -- you know, everybody remembers there was the Watergate break-in. But no one really knows to this day what they were looking for. It was the office of the Democratic National Committee in the Watergate office building. It was the office of Lawrence O'Brien, who was then the chairman of the DNC, who didn't even use that office very much.

There's been all shorts of wild conjecture about what the burglars were actually looking to do -- bugging that office, but know one really knows for sure. So even though this is probably the sexiest mystery of Watergate, you know, who was Deep Throat, there's still a lot of things that remain unknown.

KAGAN: You know, looking at this "Vanity Fair" article, because we do have an advanced copy here, the writer, John O'Connor, talks about W. Mark Felt. He was an older man. He had retired to California, living with his daughter. And goes back as far as 1999, when all the reporters were knocking on his daughter's door. Because it was the 25th anniversary at that time of Watergate. And people were like, you know, like, just checking again, are you sure you don't want to talk? Are you sure it wasn't you?

As we've been saying, he's coming forward now, talking to John O'Connor in "Vanity Fair," saying yes, indeed, I was Deep Throat, according to the magazine. But all these years denying it. What would be the impetus -- I think now coming forward because you're older, want to get it out because you're still alive -- but of keeping it secret all those years?

TOOBIN: You know, and his family had some fun with this over the years. You know, at one point, the suspicions grew so great -- he lives with his daughter now -- that his daughter changed the answering machine message on their home that if you'd like to message for Mark or Deep Throat, you know, wait for the beep. I mean, so they've had some fun with this. And I think the impetus has got to be -- look, he's 91 years old. This is a historically significant role that he had. I guess he doesn't feel any shame in the fact that he apparently violated some confidences, and he felt that it was, by and large, a good thing, that the story of Nixon's -- that he played a role in Nixon's departure from office. So what the heck? What are they going to do to him? He's 91 years old.

KAGAN: Yes, looking at some of the information as this story breaks and develops, that Richard Nixon, his guess of who Deep Throat was, was Mark Felt.

TOOBIN: As I said, I didn't know Nixon's guess was Felt, but a lot of people had guessed Felt over the years. I mean, there had been people speculating it was Henry Kissinger and Alexander Hague, and all sorts of celebrated and uncelebrated suspects, but Felt was, if not suspect one, certainly one of the top suspects. John Dean, who obviously had an important role in Watergate himself, I believe he suspected Felt for a long time. So this doesn't come as a great surprise.

But interesting, I think it's worth noting that Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein have always said, they would not disclose the name of Deep Throat while Deep Throat was still alive. And as various figures have died, and they have not identified Deep Throat, the suspicion has focused even more on Mark Felt. But it's also interesting note, as we think about, you know, two Washington reporters now are looking to going to prison, Matt Cooper of "Time" magazine and Judith Miller of "The New York Times," over refusing to identify their sources in a criminal investigation, it's important to remember that it wasn't Woodward and Bernstein who identified Bernstein, it was Deep Throat himself. So this business of protecting reports is something that's very sacrosanct among journalists.

KAGAN: Right, and showing you how times have changed. I don't think there was a time, was there, to Woodward and Bernstein, that they could go to jail if they didn't reveal who their source was?

TOOBIN: No, they were never criminally or otherwise investigated that I'm aware of, but just as a matter of honor, as a matter of journalistic integrity, they were going to protect the it identity of their sources. However they always said the editor at the time, the editor of "The Washington Post," Ben Bradley, has always known who Deep Throat was, and consistent with sound journalistic practice, editors should know who anonymous sources are, but Bradley has kept the secret, just as Woodward and Bernstein have.

KAGAN: It will be interesting to see as the day goes on if we hear from any of those three men.

Jeff, we're going to have you standoff by. Our Bill Schneider is standing by in Washington D.C. with his thoughts about this news -- Bill.

WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POL. ANALYST: There has been a long train of suspicion that Mark Felt might very well be Deep Throat. There was an article in the "Atlantic Monthly" in May 1992 by James Mann (ph), saying that Mark Felt he was the leading suspect, if you want to call it that, the person suspended of being Deep Throat. There was also a book in May 1992 by Ronald Kessler, "The Bureau: The Secret History of the FBI," in which he indicated his view that Mark Felt was, in fact, Deep Throat, and there was even a mention on the White House tapes from October 1972 that H.R. Haldemann (ph), a Nixon aide, telling Nixon that most of the leaks seemed to be coming from Felt at the FBI.

So it really isn't a surprise. The big surprise, in my view, is how long this secret has been kept.

KAGAN: And especially in a town that doesn't like to keep secrets.

SCHNEIDER: That's right. Obviously it was Mark Felt's clear desire not to reveal that he was Deep Throat until recently. He is quite ill. He lives in Santa Rosa, California with his daughter. Apparently he was watching, according to "Vanity Fair's" report, he was watching with his daughter a documentary on Watergate, and his daughter asked him, in the third person, do you think Deep Throat wanted to get rid of Nixon? And she says, she tells the author in "Vanity Fair," that her father replied, "No, I wasn't trying to bring him down." He claimed instead that he was doing his duty. That's when the secret began to be revealed.

KAGAN: Some more background, Bill, on Mark Felt. He was the third highest official in the FBI at the time of Watergate. And as you were pointing out, there have been articles written where they've tried to pare down clues. It was definitely believed it had to be somebody from within the FBI. Do you know why that was at the time?

SCHNEIDER: Because they would have had access to all the information, all the charges, the investigations. He was in a position to know more information than just about anyone, which was why it was suspected that he might well be Deep Throat. He was also known to be someone who gossiped a great deal, who heard a lot of rumors, and in this case, his motives don't appear to have been political. He said, he told his daughter, that whoever Deep Throat was, and he later said I, wasn't trying to bring Richard Nixon down; he was trying to do his duty, and he advised Woodward and Bernstein to "follow the money," and that became the most important clue of all.

KAGAN: What are your recollections of that time in Washington, Bill.

HEMMER: Well, I wasn't in Washington at that time, but I remember that this was an obsessive story for months in Washington, around the country. How did this happen? It started off very small. My biggest recollection was that it took months and months and months for this story to build into a crisis. The break-in was in 1972, the Watergate story started in the beginning of 1973, and Nixon didn't resign until August of 1974. Look how long it took for this to build -- drip, drip, drip.

It is, in fact, a major case study in how not to do damage control, because every week, virtually, the story got bigger, and bigger and bigger, and implicated more people and more crimes were revealed. It just grew and grew. The first principle of damage control is let the worst information out first. That's exactly the opposite of what happened in Watergate.

KAGAN: Bill Schneider, thanks you for your thoughts.

Let's get back and bring Jeff Toobin again, this breaking news out of "Vanity Fair" magazine. Their next issue will have an article by John D. O'Connor, saying the man who is Deep Throat comes forward and admits that he was W. Mark Felt, a high-ranking official at the time of the Watergate break-in.

TOOBIN: Daryn, did you speak to me?

KAGAN: Yes.

TOOBIN: Well, you know, one of the reasons why the FBI was so much expected as a source, was that if you remember what the Watergate coverup was, it was an attempt to impede an investigation that was being done largely by the FBI, that was interfered with by the White House. In fact, the famous smoking gun tape of the -- of -- which really got Richard Nixon thrown out of office, which lost him all this support in the Senate, was Nixon saying to the aides, let's use the CIA to tell the FBI to back off on the Watergate investigation.

So the FBI was offended institutionally that they were being used by Nixon to try to cover up his political activities in -- with his -- with the break-in and what not. So the fact that the FBI was the source of this animosity, if not to Nixon generally, then this particular act, in Nixon's presidency, makes sense that Deep Throat was an FBI loyalist. That's the way he felt it was.

KAGAN: Jeff, let me get this in here, because when you and I were talking about how Carl Bernstein, and Bob Woodward, and Ben Bradley had all said that they would never say who Deep Throat is until that person died. Even in light of this news, we're getting this statement from Carl Bernstein, where he says, and he is standing by his policy, and I'm just going to read you what he has said to CNN. This from Carl Bernstein.

"As in the past, we're not going to say anything about this. There have been many books, articles and speculation about the identity of the individual known as 'Deep Throat.' We have said all along that when that person dies, we will disclose his identity and describe in context and great detail our dealings with him, with all our confidential sources. We agreed not to idea him until their death. Nothing has changed in that. No one has released us from any pledge, and we will not identify Deep Throat until his death. So even with this article in "Vanity Fair," Jeff, they are standing by their pledge. They're saying nothing.

TOOBIN: Well, the usual journalistic practice, I think is to honor the request of a confidential source, unless that person specifically tells you that you are free to disclose their name. Perhaps, at least as my quick look at the "vanity Fair" story, suggest that he identified himself, but did not go back to Woodward and Bernstein and say, feel free to use my name. So they are, you know -- they are viewing their agreement with him strictly by the terms that they negotiated, and they're not disclosing it.

KAGAN: And it sounds like this was something done also through his family, through his daughter and his grandson, and that Mark Felt, at this point, at 91, is an older man. And Carl Bernstein until he hears from Deep Throat, he is not going to change saying anything.

But once again, to go back and talk about our breaking news, a man who was number two or three at the FBI at the time of the Watergate break-in, admitting to his family, and to a reporter for "Vanity Fair" magazine, saying he was Deep Throat. This is a man who has been on a long list of-- or actually a short list of people who have been suspected to possibly be Deep Throat, and yet a man who's never come forward before.

Do we still have Jeff with us?

TOOBIN: I'm here.

KAGAN: All right.

Jeff, and we were talking earlier, this is the best kept secret in the history of modern journalism because of three men or four men who know who it is who have never come forward before to this point. But as you were saying, no crime's committed here, even if it would be a high-ranking FBI official as somebody who had been feeding information to reporters at that time.

TOOBIN: Right. And, you know, I think one reason why there has been so much interest was that it was -- I mean, it's just such a great story. And, you know, even the name, Deep Throat.

The reason as I recall from "All the President's Men" is that, you know, the infamous porn movie "Deep Throat" had come out around that time, and that's where they got the name. And if you recall, when Woodward wanted to see Deep Throat, he would put a coffee pot in a planter, I believe, in his window by where he lived in Washington.

So this great cloak and dagger aspect of it made it especially enticing, but there are a lot of important Watergate stories. But Deep Throat has this majesty and resonance that nothing else has.

KAGAN: Right. Such a big story today.

Jeffrey Toobin, thank you.

Our thanks to Bill Schneider as well.

We're not going anywhere. We're just going to include our coverage now with our Suzanne Malveaux, who is in for Wolf Blitzer today in Washington, D.C.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired May 31, 2005 - 11:40   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: This news coming out of Iraq, as well. The president tells CNN that Saddam Hussein's war crimes trial may begin as early as this summer. Jalal Talabani's prediction is at odds with Iraqi prosecutors and their U.S. advisers. They say a trial is unlikely before 2006. Talabani says there's a growing desire among Iraqis to have Saddam executed if convicted.
Live Aid. It made musical history. An impressive mix of singers and rock bands on stage one more time for one concert. We're going to hear from one of its organizers, Bono, just ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAGAN: And this has to do with Watergate and Deep Throat, one of the best kept secrets in the history of journalism. A man now coming forward, admitting to "Vanity Fair" magazine, saying he, indeed, was Deep Throat. The man who 25 years ago continued to give a series of clues to "Washington Post" reporters, Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein as they broke the Watergate story.

That man, Mark Felt, W. Mark Felt. He's now 91 years old. At the time, he was the number two man at the FBI. He is now coming forward, once again, and saying to "Vanity Fair" magazine and giving his story, saying he was the man who spoke to Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein. It is a story and a secret that they have kept to themselves all these years. There have been of guesses over the years.

And, in fact, the guess of it being W. Mark Felt has come up a number of times. But now for the first time he's stepping forward and telling his story, saying he is the one who was Deep Throat. So once again, that's the breaking news. It has to do with one of the best kept secrets in the history of journalism. This man, the guy who was number two at the FBI at this time of Watergate breaking, saying he was Deep Throat.

Our Jeff Toobin, our legal analyst, knows a lot about the story, also this man. Joins us now on the phone to tell us more about what he knows. Jeffrey -- oh, you're there in person. Hello.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Hi, Daryn, how you doing? Here I am.

KAGAN: So do you know W. Mark Felt or you know of him?

TOOBIN: Oh, I know of him. I don't know him. He's been retired for a long time. He's in his 80s. KAGAN: He's 91 -- 91 now.

TOOBIN: Oh, is he 91?

KAGAN: Yes.

TOOBIN: But he has been a long-term suspect of being Deep Throat, I mean, of the people who have studied this. And I consider myself a modest Deep Throat buff, not a great expert. But, you know, remember, the person who is Deep Throat was somewhat an outsider to the Nixon administration. That's why the suspects did not include many people who were in the inner circle in the White House.

And Mark Felt, as the number two person in the FBI, had access to a lot of information, but he was not a Nixon loyalist. So that's why he was a prime candidate from the very beginning.

KAGAN: Well, and interesting that you used the word suspect, because here is a man who was giving this government information to the two "Washington Post" reporters, Carl Bernstein and Bob Woodward. But were any crimes broken in what he did?

TOOBIN: Well, I don't think so. I mean, it's not a crime to leak information that is not classified. And Watergate didn't have much to do with classified information. It certainly was a violation of government procedures. But, you know, we reporters rely on people to leak to us and give us information that their bosses don't want them to do. So I use suspect not in a negative sense of criminal wrongdoing, but suspect in terms of just this guessing game of who was the person who played such an important role in the Watergate story and thus in Richard Nixon's resignation from office.

KAGAN: It was a story that brought down a presidential administration. And once again, it was the Nixon's administration's effort, this massive campaign to cover up the obstruction of justice of the Watergate break-in.

TOOBIN: Right. And if you remember -- and this is particularly vividly portrayed in the great movie version of "All The President's Men," where you'll recall Hal Holbrook played Deep Throat. And the thing that he always said to Woodward and Bernstein was, follow the money, follow the money. And it was through the control of the slush funds that Woodward and Bernstein uncovered, you know, how they -- they learned who controlled the slush funds that ultimately went to pay the Watergate burglars and pay for the various cover-ups. That was how the story was broken, and it was Deep Throat who kept pressing Woodward and Bernstein to follow the money.

KAGAN: And again, this would be I think the classic example of the cover-up being worse than the crime.

TOOBIN: Absolutely. I mean, one of the many mysteries of Watergate that have never been really solved -- and it's funny, people always forget about this -- is -- you know, everybody remembers there was the Watergate break-in. But no one really knows to this day what they were looking for. It was the office of the Democratic National Committee in the Watergate office building. It was the office of Lawrence O'Brien, who was then the chairman of the DNC, who didn't even use that office very much.

There's been all shorts of wild conjecture about what the burglars were actually looking to do -- bugging that office, but know one really knows for sure. So even though this is probably the sexiest mystery of Watergate, you know, who was Deep Throat, there's still a lot of things that remain unknown.

KAGAN: You know, looking at this "Vanity Fair" article, because we do have an advanced copy here, the writer, John O'Connor, talks about W. Mark Felt. He was an older man. He had retired to California, living with his daughter. And goes back as far as 1999, when all the reporters were knocking on his daughter's door. Because it was the 25th anniversary at that time of Watergate. And people were like, you know, like, just checking again, are you sure you don't want to talk? Are you sure it wasn't you?

As we've been saying, he's coming forward now, talking to John O'Connor in "Vanity Fair," saying yes, indeed, I was Deep Throat, according to the magazine. But all these years denying it. What would be the impetus -- I think now coming forward because you're older, want to get it out because you're still alive -- but of keeping it secret all those years?

TOOBIN: You know, and his family had some fun with this over the years. You know, at one point, the suspicions grew so great -- he lives with his daughter now -- that his daughter changed the answering machine message on their home that if you'd like to message for Mark or Deep Throat, you know, wait for the beep. I mean, so they've had some fun with this. And I think the impetus has got to be -- look, he's 91 years old. This is a historically significant role that he had. I guess he doesn't feel any shame in the fact that he apparently violated some confidences, and he felt that it was, by and large, a good thing, that the story of Nixon's -- that he played a role in Nixon's departure from office. So what the heck? What are they going to do to him? He's 91 years old.

KAGAN: Yes, looking at some of the information as this story breaks and develops, that Richard Nixon, his guess of who Deep Throat was, was Mark Felt.

TOOBIN: As I said, I didn't know Nixon's guess was Felt, but a lot of people had guessed Felt over the years. I mean, there had been people speculating it was Henry Kissinger and Alexander Hague, and all sorts of celebrated and uncelebrated suspects, but Felt was, if not suspect one, certainly one of the top suspects. John Dean, who obviously had an important role in Watergate himself, I believe he suspected Felt for a long time. So this doesn't come as a great surprise.

But interesting, I think it's worth noting that Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein have always said, they would not disclose the name of Deep Throat while Deep Throat was still alive. And as various figures have died, and they have not identified Deep Throat, the suspicion has focused even more on Mark Felt. But it's also interesting note, as we think about, you know, two Washington reporters now are looking to going to prison, Matt Cooper of "Time" magazine and Judith Miller of "The New York Times," over refusing to identify their sources in a criminal investigation, it's important to remember that it wasn't Woodward and Bernstein who identified Bernstein, it was Deep Throat himself. So this business of protecting reports is something that's very sacrosanct among journalists.

KAGAN: Right, and showing you how times have changed. I don't think there was a time, was there, to Woodward and Bernstein, that they could go to jail if they didn't reveal who their source was?

TOOBIN: No, they were never criminally or otherwise investigated that I'm aware of, but just as a matter of honor, as a matter of journalistic integrity, they were going to protect the it identity of their sources. However they always said the editor at the time, the editor of "The Washington Post," Ben Bradley, has always known who Deep Throat was, and consistent with sound journalistic practice, editors should know who anonymous sources are, but Bradley has kept the secret, just as Woodward and Bernstein have.

KAGAN: It will be interesting to see as the day goes on if we hear from any of those three men.

Jeff, we're going to have you standoff by. Our Bill Schneider is standing by in Washington D.C. with his thoughts about this news -- Bill.

WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POL. ANALYST: There has been a long train of suspicion that Mark Felt might very well be Deep Throat. There was an article in the "Atlantic Monthly" in May 1992 by James Mann (ph), saying that Mark Felt he was the leading suspect, if you want to call it that, the person suspended of being Deep Throat. There was also a book in May 1992 by Ronald Kessler, "The Bureau: The Secret History of the FBI," in which he indicated his view that Mark Felt was, in fact, Deep Throat, and there was even a mention on the White House tapes from October 1972 that H.R. Haldemann (ph), a Nixon aide, telling Nixon that most of the leaks seemed to be coming from Felt at the FBI.

So it really isn't a surprise. The big surprise, in my view, is how long this secret has been kept.

KAGAN: And especially in a town that doesn't like to keep secrets.

SCHNEIDER: That's right. Obviously it was Mark Felt's clear desire not to reveal that he was Deep Throat until recently. He is quite ill. He lives in Santa Rosa, California with his daughter. Apparently he was watching, according to "Vanity Fair's" report, he was watching with his daughter a documentary on Watergate, and his daughter asked him, in the third person, do you think Deep Throat wanted to get rid of Nixon? And she says, she tells the author in "Vanity Fair," that her father replied, "No, I wasn't trying to bring him down." He claimed instead that he was doing his duty. That's when the secret began to be revealed.

KAGAN: Some more background, Bill, on Mark Felt. He was the third highest official in the FBI at the time of Watergate. And as you were pointing out, there have been articles written where they've tried to pare down clues. It was definitely believed it had to be somebody from within the FBI. Do you know why that was at the time?

SCHNEIDER: Because they would have had access to all the information, all the charges, the investigations. He was in a position to know more information than just about anyone, which was why it was suspected that he might well be Deep Throat. He was also known to be someone who gossiped a great deal, who heard a lot of rumors, and in this case, his motives don't appear to have been political. He said, he told his daughter, that whoever Deep Throat was, and he later said I, wasn't trying to bring Richard Nixon down; he was trying to do his duty, and he advised Woodward and Bernstein to "follow the money," and that became the most important clue of all.

KAGAN: What are your recollections of that time in Washington, Bill.

HEMMER: Well, I wasn't in Washington at that time, but I remember that this was an obsessive story for months in Washington, around the country. How did this happen? It started off very small. My biggest recollection was that it took months and months and months for this story to build into a crisis. The break-in was in 1972, the Watergate story started in the beginning of 1973, and Nixon didn't resign until August of 1974. Look how long it took for this to build -- drip, drip, drip.

It is, in fact, a major case study in how not to do damage control, because every week, virtually, the story got bigger, and bigger and bigger, and implicated more people and more crimes were revealed. It just grew and grew. The first principle of damage control is let the worst information out first. That's exactly the opposite of what happened in Watergate.

KAGAN: Bill Schneider, thanks you for your thoughts.

Let's get back and bring Jeff Toobin again, this breaking news out of "Vanity Fair" magazine. Their next issue will have an article by John D. O'Connor, saying the man who is Deep Throat comes forward and admits that he was W. Mark Felt, a high-ranking official at the time of the Watergate break-in.

TOOBIN: Daryn, did you speak to me?

KAGAN: Yes.

TOOBIN: Well, you know, one of the reasons why the FBI was so much expected as a source, was that if you remember what the Watergate coverup was, it was an attempt to impede an investigation that was being done largely by the FBI, that was interfered with by the White House. In fact, the famous smoking gun tape of the -- of -- which really got Richard Nixon thrown out of office, which lost him all this support in the Senate, was Nixon saying to the aides, let's use the CIA to tell the FBI to back off on the Watergate investigation.

So the FBI was offended institutionally that they were being used by Nixon to try to cover up his political activities in -- with his -- with the break-in and what not. So the fact that the FBI was the source of this animosity, if not to Nixon generally, then this particular act, in Nixon's presidency, makes sense that Deep Throat was an FBI loyalist. That's the way he felt it was.

KAGAN: Jeff, let me get this in here, because when you and I were talking about how Carl Bernstein, and Bob Woodward, and Ben Bradley had all said that they would never say who Deep Throat is until that person died. Even in light of this news, we're getting this statement from Carl Bernstein, where he says, and he is standing by his policy, and I'm just going to read you what he has said to CNN. This from Carl Bernstein.

"As in the past, we're not going to say anything about this. There have been many books, articles and speculation about the identity of the individual known as 'Deep Throat.' We have said all along that when that person dies, we will disclose his identity and describe in context and great detail our dealings with him, with all our confidential sources. We agreed not to idea him until their death. Nothing has changed in that. No one has released us from any pledge, and we will not identify Deep Throat until his death. So even with this article in "Vanity Fair," Jeff, they are standing by their pledge. They're saying nothing.

TOOBIN: Well, the usual journalistic practice, I think is to honor the request of a confidential source, unless that person specifically tells you that you are free to disclose their name. Perhaps, at least as my quick look at the "vanity Fair" story, suggest that he identified himself, but did not go back to Woodward and Bernstein and say, feel free to use my name. So they are, you know -- they are viewing their agreement with him strictly by the terms that they negotiated, and they're not disclosing it.

KAGAN: And it sounds like this was something done also through his family, through his daughter and his grandson, and that Mark Felt, at this point, at 91, is an older man. And Carl Bernstein until he hears from Deep Throat, he is not going to change saying anything.

But once again, to go back and talk about our breaking news, a man who was number two or three at the FBI at the time of the Watergate break-in, admitting to his family, and to a reporter for "Vanity Fair" magazine, saying he was Deep Throat. This is a man who has been on a long list of-- or actually a short list of people who have been suspected to possibly be Deep Throat, and yet a man who's never come forward before.

Do we still have Jeff with us?

TOOBIN: I'm here.

KAGAN: All right.

Jeff, and we were talking earlier, this is the best kept secret in the history of modern journalism because of three men or four men who know who it is who have never come forward before to this point. But as you were saying, no crime's committed here, even if it would be a high-ranking FBI official as somebody who had been feeding information to reporters at that time.

TOOBIN: Right. And, you know, I think one reason why there has been so much interest was that it was -- I mean, it's just such a great story. And, you know, even the name, Deep Throat.

The reason as I recall from "All the President's Men" is that, you know, the infamous porn movie "Deep Throat" had come out around that time, and that's where they got the name. And if you recall, when Woodward wanted to see Deep Throat, he would put a coffee pot in a planter, I believe, in his window by where he lived in Washington.

So this great cloak and dagger aspect of it made it especially enticing, but there are a lot of important Watergate stories. But Deep Throat has this majesty and resonance that nothing else has.

KAGAN: Right. Such a big story today.

Jeffrey Toobin, thank you.

Our thanks to Bill Schneider as well.

We're not going anywhere. We're just going to include our coverage now with our Suzanne Malveaux, who is in for Wolf Blitzer today in Washington, D.C.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com