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DIPLOMATIC LICENSE
Current Events at the United Nations
Aired June 3, 2005 - 21:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The AIDS epidemic is a long-term one. It will not somehow disappear one fine day.
KOFI ANNAN, U.N. SECY.-GEN.: It is now clear that the epidemic continues to outrun our efforts to contain it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We looked at the evidence regarding Mr. Stefanides (ph). Our decision was made on him, on his actions, that there was a series breach of staff rules, and dismissal then ensued.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD ROTH, CNN ANCHOR: What Broadway theater production title best captures the fight against AIDS by U.N. member countries? Promises, promises.
Welcome to DIPLOMATIC LICENSE. My name is not Deep Throat but Richard Roth.
Do you realize 39 million people are living with AIDS? The United Nations leader this week says despite global efforts the disease is racing ahead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANNAN: Last year saw more new infections and more AIDS-related deaths than ever before. Indeed, HIV and AIDS expanded at an accelerating rate on every continent. Treatment and prevention efforts were nowhere near enough.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROTH: Kofi Annan addressed a one-day review session of where things stand in the fight against AIDS. Five years ago, world leaders pledged to start reversing the AIDS threat by 2015.
In a candid admission this week, the chief U.N. AIDS warrior, Peter Piot, conceded it's unlikely AIDS reduction targets will be met by that time in several parts of the world.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETER PIOT, UNAIDS: Until and unless we control this epidemic, it will continue to expand and worsen for decades, killing unbelievably large numbers of people and wrecking entire societies.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROTH: Did you know that some $8 billion is expected to be spent in the fight against AIDS this year? This week, CNN observed its 25th anniversary. One issue that slowly came into public view during that quarter century is AIDS.
There are many angles to AIDS in the year 2005. To help assess, some guests. 25 percent of the adults in Zimbabwe have the HIV virus. Joining us at the United Nations with Zimbabwe's Ministry of Health is Dr. Elizabeth Kaba.
Kofi Annan says more money is needed, and not just from the usual donors but from countries effected in the private sector. With us from the Global Business Coalition of HIV/AIDS is Executive Director Trevor Nielson.
The world's second largest population infected with HIV is in India. Not a bad time to have India's minister of science and technology; Kapil Sibal is here with us.
Mr. Minister, tell us what you think is the responsibility of these governments and why they haven't exactly lived up to their promises despite all the great talk over the years. And you're in a country with, you know, a very significant growth rate.
KAPIL SIBAL, INDIAN MIN. OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Well, I think the biggest problem is commitment, political commitment at all levels amongst various governments and commitment of the world community. Unless there is that commitment that we are going to get rid of it -- and then commitment is just not enough. What you need behind that is money.
Once you have the commitment, then the international community must put money on the table to develop technologies to get rid of HIV and AIDS and that means putting more money into vaccines. That means getting all countries who are afflicted by the disease. That means south-south cooperation, south-north cooperation. That's just not happening.
ROTH: As we get everybody's initial assessment here, speaking of money, Trevor Nielson, what about the business community? Tell us how the efforts of your coalition are going and what's needed.
TREVOR NEILSON, GLOBAL BUSINESS COALITION ON HIV/AIDS: Well, businesses have done far too little in the fight against AIDS, and I think the problem is that CEOs, just like heads of state, aren't treating this like the emergency that it is.
Imagine if tomorrow, the day after and the day after that, 300 fully loaded Boeing 747s crashed in every corner of the world. That's the death toll of AIDS every single day. I think the world would treat that as an emergency and yet we seem to think that AIDS is something that we should just tolerate.
It's time that we all step up and do something about this and business leaders need to be right there at the table with other heads of state and ministers around the world.
ROTH: All right. And from Africa, the assessment there, Dr. Elizabeth Kaba, with the Ministry of Health. Zimbabwe's current situation?
DR. ELIZABETH KABA, ZIMBABWEAN MINISTRY OF HEALTH: The problem of HIV and AIDS in Zimbabwe is like any other in the southern region. As you know, we are the epicenter of the disease. We are making all efforts to it, but I agree with my other partners that the private sector has to come in and the international partnership, multilevel and bilateral partners have to come in and participate in the entire fight, otherwise we'll lose the battle.
And I agree with what Peter Piot is saying. I also agree with what Secretary Kofi Annan is saying, that the ravaging is much faster than what we are putting in.
ROTH: Your government says it's not getting enough money because countries are very concerned about the Mugabe administration. Can you elaborate on that?
KABA: It is true and it is known that we, the Zimbabwean people, our people for each person will receive $3 per capita per year, when you compare with colleagues within the region devastated by the disease who are getting up of $100 U.S. per capita per year.
And we in Zimbabwe look at HIV and AIDS just like we look at the tsunami. When you look at the tsunami disaster which ravaged Asia a couple of months ago, it is people that will die. It is people that were made homeless. And in my country it is the same people ravaged by disease, and therefore I challenge the international community that it is the people that need assistance. It's people that are dying. It's people that are ill. And, therefore, HIV and AIDS should be seen as a humanitarian crisis, it should be managed like one.
SIBAL: In fact, I agree entirely with Elizabeth. It's not just a one-time tsunami. It's a tsunami that's happening every day.
14,000 people are being infected on a daily basis and you're going to have 4 million people every year.
ROTH: But we know this. We've known this for years.
SIBAL: And yet the international community has not responded in the manner it ought to have responded.
ROTH: But the people in these countries, that live in a lot of these countries, don't seem to be challenging their leaders on this issue -- Trevor.
NEILSON: I would agree. With all due respect, Madam Minister, the Mugabe regime is a large part of the problem.
One reason that Zimbabwe spends $3 per person living with AIDS but Zambia pays $200 per person living with AIDS is that Robert Mugabe has not made this a priority. Instead he's sought to control his people in a nondemocratic process and as a result health systems are failing.
You ask that the private sector engage with the government of Zimbabwe. Many companies would like to, but they're fearful of doing business there. They're fleeing the country. In fact, half of the people in Zimbabwe who are on antiretroviral treatment are on treatment provided by the private sector.
KABA: I'll come in and just say to you that Zimbabwe is just the only country in the region that has a national trust fund. We have a levy in my country and most of the way we are managing the disease is because we have a levy that we have put in place that you must see as --
NEILSON: Madam Minister, with all due respect, if less money were being spent propping up the Mugabe regime, there would be more money for the people of Zimbabwe. Zimbabwe was once a great economic miracle of southern Africa. It is a wonderful country. The country can do so much better on health issues, but not unless the government makes it a priority.
KABA: Let me just say to you that we have generally said that everybody else is politicizing the issue of HIV/AIDS and we are also saying that the example you are giving of other countries, it would be not practical for me to talk about other countries, but I'm just saying those countries that are doing what they're doing is because they have been given money through Bill Clinton, through Bill Gates, through the Petford (ph) funds, and that's why they have those funds, but I must say to you --
(CROSSTALK)
SIBAL: I don't think, Richard, we should trivialize the seriousness of the debate. The issue is not whether a country is spending more or spending less.
ROTH: What is trivializing it?
SIBAL: Because even if you were to spend more, it's not going to get rid of HIV and AIDS. What we need to do is decide where you're going to spend the money, and the way to go about it is invest more money into technology, into vaccines, because that's the prevention that's ultimately going to win the battle.
NEILSON: Mr. Minister, you wouldn't argue that vaccine research and development is what should take place in Zimbabwe. You would argue that prevention, education --
(CROSSTALK)
ROTH: Well, that is your main issue as science and tech man, but in Zimbabwe, and we're not trying to --
(CROSSTALK)
KABA: We will not argue about personal opinions. The political situation in my country is because we have put a program where we are redistributing land to the owners of the land, and that is a political stance that we have taken. And as a result of that, individuals have decided on that basis that they will demonize our country, and the people of that country will then not receive what is considered international funds.
NEILSON: Madam Minister, how many people are on antiretroviral treatment being provided by the government of Zimbabwe?
KABA: The reason why we're asking for a figure is because we want to compare Zimbabwe with other countries. I just want to say to you, sir, that the commitment in my country of HIV and AIDS is not equal to but in most countries better than. The health system in my country has one of the best fabrics, if you want to compare with the rest of --
NEILSON: Madam Minister, there is no objective international system of measurement that would state that the government of Zimbabwe is spending enough money on AIDS or has equal health results with other countries in the region. I'm sorry.
KABA: You're entitled to your opinion --
NEILSON: This is not my opinion. It's the World Health Organization's opinion, the World Bank's opinion.
KABA: It's not the World Health Organization's opinion. And I think the director general will dispute that.
ROTH: Is politics in your opinion hurting in many countries?
SIBAL: Politics is hurting, and I think we ought not to politicize the issue at all. The issue is a development issue. It infects global security and we should look at it from that standpoint.
NEILSON: But at the end of the day --
SIBAL: And I think more can be done in many countries and we need not talk about a particular country. Even in my country more can be done, more should be done. But the fact of the matter is that we need a global strategy.
ROTH: We're going to return to other issues in a moment. All of our guests will remain there.
Let's say someone in our audience has the virus. You hear all the talk about the United Nations vowing to do something, but on a personal level you're really on your own. Take the case of Violetta Ross (ph). She is with the Bolivian Network of People Living With AIDS.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VIOLETTA ROSS (ph), BOLIVIAN NETWORK OF PEOPLE LIVING WITH AIDS: I myself have been living in Peru and Bolivia for the last two years, and in none of these countries I had access to treatment. Now I am on treatment, but how did I get this treatment? I had to ask some friends from Canada to please give me as a gift medications. And this is the way I got my treatment. And this is not the policy. And my treatment is not the responsibility of my friends in the United States or Canada. It's the responsibility of my country. It's the responsibility of the U.N. representatives in my country as well. So I am kind of disappointed. I'm sorry if I don't have very good news to tell you, but this is the reality.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROTH: Death by AIDS, funeral in Zimbabwe. Southern Africa, the hothouse of horrors.
I'm getting up to speed here on DIPLOMATIC LICENSE on where the world stands on the issue of AIDS five years after U.N. countries promised to start taking down this disease by the year 2015.
Let's ask our guests, Dr. Elizabeth Kaba, from Zimbabwe's Health Ministry. What do you think Zimbabwe needs the most, very briefly, to stop funerals like that from happening every minute?
KABA: What Zimbabwe needs is what other countries need. The kind of funeral music that you heard in Zimbabwe is the kind of music that you would have heard in Botswana, in South Africa and in other countries. As you know, at the moment Zimbabwe is fourth after the other three southern countries now, and what we need is commitment, global commitment, to the problem as a crisis, now.
ROTH: OK. Global commitment. And with me here now from India, the minister of science and technology, I want to know what new ways this fight can be won that you think can be achievable by 2015.
SIBAL: You have the G8 coming up. The United Kingdom has the presidency of the G8. The G8 must commit itself to billions of dollars being spent on not just vaccines but on care and treatment and other forms of help that can be given.
ROTH: More young women than men are being infected every day. That is a prediction that was made years ago that has come true. The United Nations top AIDS field envoy, Stephen Lewis, who wasn't exactly upbeat about G8 prospects. As usual, he had some straight talk on the world's response to the epidemic and women.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHEN LEWIS, U.N. SPECIAL ENVOY ON HIV/AIDS: The devastation, the disproportionate devastation of women, is incomprehensible, and the world has not rallied around. You must understand that there is a lethargy, an inertia and a paralysis in response to the vulnerability of women which a morally inexcusable, and it does not end.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROTH: Zimbabwe, Dr. Kaba, what is your country doing about women and AIDS?
KABA: This is very interesting. The issue of women and HIV requires that women are empowered, especially the young girls. We know that the issue of gender and gender inequality and discrimination is candid within most of our population, even in Africa, even in the region. And that unless we attend to the issue of the young girls and the women and their empowerment, we will lose it given the fact that culturally they have this influence of the population.
ROTH: All right, Trevor Neilson, your views on Zimbabwe's views, or your own views.
NEILSON: Let me say this, the world can stop AIDS if we have the political commitment necessary, and there are three big things that need to happen at the upcoming G8 conference.
One is we need debt relief for the heavily indebted nations that are spending more money servicing their debt than they are on their entire health budgets.
Two, we need more aid. We need more money to go to Africa and other heavily impacted parts of the world.
Three, we need the removal of protectionist trade barriers that don't allow Africa to compete fairly with Europe and the United States.
But, finally, the last thing we need is accountability. We need leaders, like President Mugabe and others in Africa, to spend this money well. It's not enough to just spend more money. We need to do that, but we also need the money to be spent well.
ROTH: All right, now, Mr. Sibal, I tried to set you up there. What about vaccines? What about -- what is new, what should be done?
SIBAL: That's exactly what should by done. And I'm sorry that that's not part of the agenda that Trevor is talking about.
You can spend as much money as you like. You can give as much aid as you like, but it's not going to get rid of the problem.
NEILSON: But, Mr. Sibal, you and I both --
SIBAL: Unless you're able to spend that money on preventive technology apart from the fact that you do other things as well --
NEILSON: Minister Sibal, the search for a vaccine is incredibly important --
(CROSSTALK)
SIBAL: -- you do work for care and treatment. You have legislation, you avoid discrimination. You make sure that people are dealt with. You empower women. All that should be done, but without a vaccine --
NEILSON: We agree. We agree on the search for a vaccine and I'm very involved with the International AIDS Vaccine Initiative and helped, in fact, create it when I worked for Gates Foundation.
But I'll tell you this, we're not going to have an effective AIDS vaccine probably for the next 10 or 15 years, and unless we want 100 million people to die, we need to put in place effective prevention, testing and treatment campaigns in the meantime. I completely agree with you that the need for a vaccine is the only thing that will end the pandemic.
SIBAL: The point is, we won't have a 100 percent vaccine, but we can have a vaccine which is 50 percent effective and can save millions of lives.
NEILSON: I hope you're right. I hope you're right.
ROTH: How is that going to work? What should a women know? What's coming?
SIBAL: First of all, women must be empowered. They must be --
ROTH: But what, technically, is going to be --
SIBAL: There is a microbicide, which is not effective 100 percent. She can use it. She can empower herself. That's a fact. That's a fact.
NEILSON: But we don't have that microbicide today.
SIBAL: Exactly, so we must put in money at the moment.
ROTH: Female condoms? What are we talking about?
SIBAL: How much money has been spent by the global community since --
NEILSON: Not enough. I agree.
SIBAL: Not enough. And for the last 20 years -- after 20 years --
ROTH: I hear a lot of talk about money, but I don't hear about practical purposes here.
SIBAL: Richard, after 20 years, only one vaccine has gone on trial.
NEILSON: India has played a very serious leadership role on this front. The Indian government should be proud of the efforts it's made to expand access to high quality generics -- not all generics are high quality, but we know that there is good work being done in India by Ranbaxe (ph), Cipla (ph), Aspen (ph) and others on this front.
SIBAL: And we are the ones who are committed to providing drugs for Africa --
KABA: I agree with --
SIBAL: -- the antiretroviral drugs to Africa at affordable prices.
KABA: I agree with what you said about India. We have benefitted from Ranbaxe (ph). We have -- in our country we have a company now which a producing generic drugs and these are complimented by drugs that are coming from Ranbaxe (ph), and I think India should be proud of continuing to pioneer that kind of supply to assist countries like our country and other countries in the region.
ROTH: How do the people get these drugs, though? It's difficult to - -
KABA: No, it's not difficult --
ROTH: I'm asking Dr. Sibal here. Dr. Sibal --
KABA: It's not difficult --
ROTH: It's not difficult? I mean --
(CROSSTALK)
SIBAL: That's one of the big problems. You see, you may have the antiretroviral but the distribution system has to be put in place. You have to have effective mechanisms so that those antiretrovirals reach people.
NEILSON: 90 percent of those who are infected don't know that they're infected because we've had ineffective access to even testing for the disease. So if we expand access to testing, expand access to prevention services, expand access to treatment and find a vaccine, we can beat this disease, but it's going to require an enormous amount of political will around the world.
KABA: That's true. That's true.
SIBAL: At least let's start with diagnostics and see that you have easy access of diagnostics that can then lead to easy testing.
NEILSON: That's right.
ROTH: We'll leave it there. Thank you very much, Mr. Sibal, from India, the science and technology minister, here for the one-day -- it never ends, really -- one-week -- it shouldn't end -- the AIDS Millennium Development Review Conference over at the United Nations. Dr. Elizabeth Kaba with Zimbabwe's Ministry of Health. And Trevor Neilson of the Global Coalition in the Fight Against HIV/AIDS, the business community. Secretary-General Annan calling on more from everybody.
The United Nations is upset about the spread of AIDS, but this week the U.N.'s own Security Council condemned it's very own for conduct that certainly heightens the potential for the risk of transmission. For the first time, the Council criticized the blue-helmeted peacekeepers for sexual abuse on the very missions the Council authorizes. Congo was the latest country where international peacekeepers had sex with adults, young girls and boys, who in some cases traded sex for money and food to survive.
Jordan's ambassador, Prince Zeid al-Hussein is the U.N.'s point man on the problem.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PRINCE ZEID AL-HUSSEIN, JORDANIAN AMB. TO U.N.: For a peacekeeper to exploit the vulnerabilities of a wounded population already the victim of all that is tragic and cruel in war is really no different than a physician who would violate the patient entrusted to their care or the lifeguard who drowns the very people in need of rescue.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We would like to have our brothers in Syria to do more to prevent a movement of extremist elements from entering our country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROTH: Iraq's foreign minister at the United Nations this week, urging neighboring Syria to do more to keep out insurgents.
Hoshyar al-Zabari also asked the Security Council for renewed approval of the U.S.-led coalition to be in Iraq, though some will say where was that approval in 2002.
Since we're talking the United Nations and Iraq, want to hear some Oil For Food news?
Kofi Annan dismissed a U.N. official because of conduct related to the scandal in the humanitarian program. Joseph Stefanides (ph) had been suspended. Now he's out, and appealing the decision. Stefanides (ph) was accused by the Paul Volcker-led inquiry of tainting the bidding process for a country to inspect goods going into Iraq. He denies it and says whatever he did was at the behest of his superiors.
Stefanides (ph) is out, but former Oil For Food program coordinator Benon Sevan is still officially with the United Nations on a renewed dollar a year basis despite being suspected of major conflicts of interest by that U.N.-approved Volcker panel.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHANE DUSABRIC (ph), U.N. SPOKESMAN: There is no double standard. The Volcker committee continues to look into the activities of Mr. Sevan and, therefore, it was decided that the United Nations own internal administrative proceedings against Mr. Sevan will be suspended until the Volcker committee concluded it's work on Mr. Sevan.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROTH: Sometime in July or August we expect a large scale Volcker report which may put an end to all of the investigations into Oil For Food. Nah.
That's DIPLOMATIC LICENSE. I'm Richard Roth, in New York, thanks for watching.
END
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