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American Morning

Massive Underground Insurgent Hideout Destroyed in Central Iraq; Justified Shooting?

Aired June 06, 2005 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Al Qaeda's suspected number three is in U.S. custody. Pakistani officials say they've handed over Abu Farraj Al Libbi. He's wanted in connection with two assassination attempts against Pakistan's president. Some say he has close ties to Osama Bin Laden.
Out in California, the first full day of jury deliberations starts this morning in the Michael Jackson trial. According to Jackson's spokeswoman, the pop star was briefly hospitalized over the weekend for back pain, but he's back at home this morning. Court is said to be back in session in the next three hours.

And actor Russell Crowe is due in court today. New York police say Crowe was arrested early this morning after he allegedly threw a telephone at a hotel employee. Police say the actor was really angry that he couldn't place a call to Australia. The employee needed stitches to repair a cut on his face because of the phone throwing. Crowe is in New York promoting his latest movie "Cinderella Man." Lots of interest in this. I just checked CNN.com. It is the most popular story of all.

ALI VELSHI, CNN ANCHOR: Really?

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Doesn't surprise me at all. I mean, it's bizarre.

VELSHI: It was moving up in interest. But when it first came out, it sort of made the top 10 and started to edge up.

COSTELLO: Well, it just came out overnight. The interesting thing about this, though, is during the movie "Cinderella Man," they were instructed to be brutal. The two actors really didn't like fake it. So maybe this just carried over.

O'BRIEN: At least that's how his publicists are spinning it today, Carol. Thanks.

Let's get back to Iraq now. A massive underground insurgent hideout has been destroyed in central Iraq. A Marine patrol discovered a bunker the size of nine football fields last Thursday. Nobody was there, but there were stockpiles of weapons and living quarters inside of it too.

CNN military analyst retired Brigadier General David Grange live with us this morning from Oak Brook in Illinois this morning.

Nice to see you, General. Thanks for talking with us.

This obviously is huge. I mean, half a million square feet full of ammo and lots of things. How important is this find, do you think?

BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, I think it's very important. Even if there was no people found at the site at the time, I think they probably moved out -- they were tipped off and moved out ahead of time.

But, again, this is a site that possibly could have hid many insurgents, terrorists during the Fallujah operations, both of them. Or a launch site for terrorist attacks throughout Iraq. And going underground, subterranean, is a technique that the Saddam regime has used for years.

O'BRIEN: So when we go through the litany of what they were able to find -- and I'll just read it: machine guns, mortars, rockets, artillery rounds, black uniforms, ski masks, compasses, log books, night-vision goggles, fully charged cell phones. What does all of this reveal to you about the insurgents?

GRANGE: All about the continuing of an operation to support resourcing of an operation, both terrorist and insurgency, throughout Iraq. And I would not be surprised if there was other complexes like this that have not been found throughout Iraq.

O'BRIEN: No actual insurgents, as you have pointed out, just a moment ago. Does this signify to you then that, once again, the insurgents are a step ahead of the U.S. military and the Iraqi forces as well?

GRANGE: I don't know if they're a step ahead, but again, this type of a complex is very similar to what you would find -- well, you found things like this in Vietnam, where they had whole hospitals underground. There were things like this in North Korea. North Korean military, for a good part, their equipment, their capability is subterranean. And I would say Iran is probably very much like this as well.

I just think this took away a sanctuary that they would use when they needed it. It doesn't mean they're a step ahead, but that there's still a lot of things to be found in Iraq to suppress the enemy forces.

O'BRIEN: It's unclear exactly how the underground tunnel part of it all was found. I mean, we've seen pictures of the above-ground building part. Do you have any speculation on that? Would you say someone tipped off U.S. forces? they just stumbled across it? would it be possible to do that?

GRANGE: Well, I haven't seen the official results yet, but I would say it could happen either way, that a lot of times something like this is found by just an inquisitive GI, or it could have been an Iraqi soldier working with the coalition forces that received a tip- off from a local. And it's very -- you know, it's kind of matter of fact. What's that door lead to? And, boom, there you go. And then they found a whole series of tunnel complexes and cache sites, and that's usually how it happens.

O'BRIEN: When you look at the living spaces, I mean, there are showers and a working air-conditioner. Does that give you any sense of how organized these insurgents are?

GRANGE: Absolutely. These places, it's just like living above ground underground. The complexes are very, very elaborate. You know, you can think back in the last Fallujah offensive, when many of the insurgency supposedly left town before the fighting started. You could speculate that maybe many of them assembled here to then leave or to reinforce Fallujah, who knows? It depends on how tight the cordon was around Fallujah at the time. And there were some reports that there were places insurgents could slip out of Fallujah. So it could have been used for that. Since then, it was probably used for support all over Iraq.

O'BRIEN: A pretty remarkable find. Brigadier General David Grange joining us this morning. Nice to see you as always. Thanks -- Ari.

VELSHI: Thanks, Soledad.

There is a question in Tucson, Arizona today about whether police needed to shoot a 14-year-old boy. The boy is in critical condition. Allegedly, he stole an 80,000-pound earth-mover on Thursday. You're looking at pictures from that chase. He led police 15 miles at speeds up to 30 miles an hour. Now the officers say they made a split-second decision to shoot when he backed the earth-scraper toward them.

The lawyer for the 14-year-old boy, Greg Kuykendall, is in Tucson. He joins us this morning.

Greg, thanks for being with us.

GREG KUYKENDALL, TEENAGER'S ATTY.: Thanks for talking with me.

VELSHI: Let's get the latest update, first of all, on the boy's condition.

KUYKENDALL: It's pretty bad right now. He's in a drug-induced coma. His lung is collapsed, and he's going to be permanently paralyzed.

VELSHI: You believe it might have been two shots. Police are saying that they shot him once?

KUYKENDALL: I can't personally see bullet holes, but my understanding, from talking with the folks at the hospital, is he took a bullet about right here, which basically just went through him, and then another bullet that went under the armpit, and that's the one that did the damage.

VELSHI: Before we hear what the police had to say, I want to ask you what you understand to be the motivation for this. It's a very unusual situation. I mean, kids that go on joyrides often take a vehicle that's a little more nimble. This is a big vehicle. He was 14 years old. I've seen references to you mentioning that he may have been in an altered state because of something he did or may have been upset by something. What do you understand to be his motivations for doing this?

KUYKENDALL: Well, I honestly don't know what his motivations were. He's a kid, and a very immature kid. It's summer, and you know, around here, about half a dozen kids every summer lick Colorado river toads for enjoyment. There's some kind of hallucinogenic effect, and they end up going to the hospital. I mean, kids do stupid things.

And for me, what's important is not so much what stupid thing the kid did, but why the police had this child cornered in the desert and chose to use lethal force when there were so many other options available.

VELSHI: All right. Let's find out what the police have to say about that. The assistant chief of the Tucson police wasn't able to join us. But here's how he explained what happened when they reached this dead end, and they expected him to jump out of the vehicle.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ASST. CHIEF KERMIT MILLER, TUCSON, ARIZ. POLICE DEPT.: The two officers are now in front of the vehicle, as it's backing towards the other cars, made a split-second decision. There are officers in those cars. They're no match for an 80,000-pound piece of equipment. Somebody is going to get seriously injured or killed, and they made a split-second decision to end it there, and they fired.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELSHI: Greg, as you said, you feel like he was backed in. He was in that corner. The police cars were around him. They were able to get the officers sort of at least away, in your words. Tell me why you think the police did the wrong thing.

KUYKENDALL: Well, if what the police chief said were entirely accurate, then it would be different. But it's not accurate. What happened is everybody bailed out of their police cars as soon as they pulled up, and the earth-mover came to a stop. So everybody was out of their cars. And at that point, the earth-mover either was in reverse or began to roll backwards. When it began to roll backwards, the police decided to shoot, and really the only thing that was at risk at that point was police equipment, not police lives. Because everybody was out of their cars, and anybody can sidestep a tractor. This isn't like a car or a motorcycle or anything that moves really, really rapidly.

VELSHI: Greg, real quick, what happens next? Do the police charge the boy, and does the boy's family sue the police?

KUYKENDALL: Well, the police are waiting to charge the boy. A time limit starts clicking. The clock starts running once they charge him, and because he's such -- in such grave medical condition right now, they're waiting to charge him. And whether the family decides to sue the police or not is something that they've got to decide on their own.

VELSHI: Greg Kuykendall is joining us from Tucson, Arizona. He is the attorney for the boy who was shot by police as a result of that chase.

Greg, thanks for joining us -- Soledad.

KUYKENDALL: Thanks.

(WEATHER REPORT)

The nation's biggest discount retailer goes upscale. Andy's going to tell us about that in "Minding Your Business."

O'BRIEN: And coming up next, easing your pain. We're "Paging Dr. Gupta" to find out why more Americans are turning to an ancient remedy.

A look at that's ahead on AMERICAN MORNING. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: It's been around for thousands of years, but there's still a fresh fascination with acupuncture. As Dr. Sanjay Gupta tells us, more adults are exploring this alternative treatment to ease chronic pain.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For 25 years, pain has been smoldering throughout 51-year-old Darrell Ortiz's body. Several major work injuries turned into a nagging sort of pain at first, but then basic things like walking, going to the grocery store, eventually even going to work, became impossible.

DARRELL ORTIZ, IN SUFFERER: Excruciating. I feels like I've gone through all of my injuries all over again, like they just happened. There's some times where I almost want to give up completely, you know. The pain just takes over.

GUPTA: Pain also appears in the sharp hues and images born of Ortiz's palette. Each day, with each glide of his brush on canvas, he could paint away the dull painful throb. But eventually pain would invade even that.

ORTIZ: Just lifting my arm like this, you know, to paint, sometimes I couldn't do it. I'd paint for a half hour and have to go to bed, you know.

GUPTA: That was the last straw. He tried everything, potent pain drugs like Oxycotin and Percoset, exercise. Nothing worked over the long term.

ORTIZ: I was to the point where I was desperate. I was willing to try anything.

GUPTA: He swallowed his fear of needles and tried acupuncture.

(on camera): Studies seem to be stacking up in favor of acupuncture, according to the World Health Organization. They say inserting little needles like these can be effective for treating arthritis, headache, menopausal symptoms, low back pain, dental pain even. The theory is this: You have energy or chi flowing through natural channels in your bodies. Any interruption of those channels can cause tension, and subsequently cause disease. It's acupuncture that can help restore that throw flow.

DR. WEI HUANG, EMORY UNIV.: The theory of traditional Chinese medicine focuses on the whole body, and there's a harmony inside the body. The flow of the chi should be very fluid in order to maintain health.

GUPTA: Historically Western doctors may have been reluctant to use this 2,000-year-old practice, but the landscape is changing slowly.

DR. PETER JOHNSTONE, EMORY UNIV.: There are some things that we still don't do well, and there are things that we still don't understand well. And in an attempt to hopefully relieve suffering, we need to, I think, be open to the fact that there may be other avenues besides those that we were taught in medical school.

GUPTA: Mainstream options alone weren't helping Darrell Ortiz. He says using acupuncture as a complement to other therapies has made his life livable. A series of treatments keeps him pain free for months at a time.

ORTIZ: Since I've been doing the acupuncture, I've been having to take less drugs.

GUPTA: Fewer drugs, but more importantly, the ability to paint away his pain and to live a normal life.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: According to a recent poll by ABC News, "USA Today," and Stanford University, five percent of adults have used acupuncture for pain treatment.

Ahead this morning, Wal-Mart hoping a makeover is going to lure some new customers as company executives admit they made some mistakes.

Andy's got those stories as he minds your business, up next on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: Welcome back, everybody.

JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Wal-Mart's on the defensive of late. Andy Serwer with that and the demise of the K-Mart cafes. "Minding Your Business." I didn't even know they had cafes.

ANDY SERWER, "FORTUNE" COLUMNIST: Yes, well, have a second of silence for that.

CAFFERTY: Can you get like a window table there?

SERWER: Yes, well, you could, right over the parking lot.

CAFFERTY: There you go.

SERWER: Beautiful stuff.

Let's talk about Wal-Mart, first of all, Jack. The biggest company in the world holding its annual meeting in Fayetteville, where the university is, right down the road from Bentonville. Here it is in the basketball arena. 20,000 people go to this thing. I was there last year, and it is massive. People from all over the world come, employees, shareholders. Why, he must be from U.K..

And then, of course, there's celebs because the company likes to roll out pitch people. Yes, that's Garth Brooks. He was there. Jon Bon Jovi. And then, of course, Jessica Simpson. Is that Jessica Simpson? Sure is.

O'BRIEN: New hairdo.

SERWER: Tresses. Yes, exactly, Soledad.

CAFFERTY: She and Wal-Mart kind of go together, you know?

SERWER: It all works, Jack. These guys talked a little bit about some of the problems they've had over the years. The chairman, Rob Walton, said we've made mistakes. And then another really interesting development, I think, is they've decided to go a little bit upscale, they've announced.

They're going to be having boutiques in some of their stores, with -- here are some of the items. Giant plasma TVs, 550-thread count Egyptian sheets. I didn't know they could get that many threads. Not 540. That's a lot of threads. Cashmere cardigans, and they're going to put in hardwood floors in these areas. They've also introduced a New York City design center, which is going to be really interesting. So they're trying to go upscale.

Now, speaking of Wal-Mart, a giant competitor of theirs, obviously, K-Mart. As Jack indicated, it's going to be closing down some of its eateries. Jack, you didn't know they had eateries.

CAFFERTY: I was unaware of that.

SERWER: You didn't -- you go to CostCo, apparently, you were telling me?

CAFFERTY: I do eat hot dogs when I go to CostCo. They have pretty good hot dogs there. SERWER: Well, they're closing down 200 of the K-Mart cafes across the country, saying if they're not profitable, they're going to close them. That makes good sense.

Let's talk about the markets. Futures are down this morning. And last week was not a particularly good one. You can see here, the Dow ended down 80 points for the week. Most of the damage done on Friday, when the weak jobs report. You can see, we're at 10,500 forever. About 100 points, 120, 130 points down for the year. So we just keep on flatlining.

CAFFERTY: There you go. Thanks, Andy.

SERWER: You're welcome.

CAFFERTY: Time for "The Cafferty File." If you've got rhythm, maybe you ought to thank your parents. The journal "Science" reports movement to music plays an important role in helping wire babies' brains to hear rhythm. Researchers tested moms and babies dancing to different beats and found that even babies a few months old caught on quickly to variations in rhythm. Researchers noted parents in the study seldom sang to their babies without bouncing or rocking them. Supposedly, any kind of music works -- rock, jazz, Mozart...

SERWER: Jessica Simpson.

CAFFERTY: Rap.

Developers in Lubbock, Texas, creating the first neighborhood guaranteed to be sex offender free. Milwaukee Ridge is being marketed as a subdivision that promises safety, including a criminal background check for home buyers and no convicted sex offenders. The no offender plan puts the responsibility on the home builders, who will face financial repercussions even if they unknowingly sell a home to a convicted sex offender.

The developers in Milwaukee Ridge plan to build 665 homes. These things sell for between $100,000 and $150,000. There are 46,000 registered sex offenders in the state of Texas and 413 of them live in the town of Lubbock.

Don't be fooled by the title of the new book "Conversations with George Bush." The author, a Martha Boone Mattia, didn't actually interview the president. She talked to 25 people that have his name. It's a little strange. The -- she bent the rules by including three women. There's a Georgia Bush, a Georgette Bush and a Georgiana Bush.

Mattias said she wrote the book out of curiosity for the patriotic outburst that followed the September 11 attacks and felt she could better understand the American character by interviewing people named George Bush. Huh? Almost all the Bushes interviewed owned guns. Most favored some gun control. Almost all of them oppose same sex marriage, but some supported civil unions for gay couples.

VELSHI: And coming out next week, my life as Jack Cafferty.

CAFFERTY: Really?

VELSHI: Without being interviewed for it.

SERWER: Right.

VELSHI: Or I'm not Jack Cafferty.

O'BRIEN: That's kind of a strange...

VELSHI: It's a very strange...

SERWER: It's called a gimmick.

O'BRIEN: Are there only 25 George Bushes? Is that what her -- or she just picked 25?

CAFFERTY: I have no idea.

SERWER: Well did she do his father?

CAFFERTY: I haven't read the book and...

SERWER: That's the question.

VELSHI: And you're not likely to?

CAFFERTY: Probably ain't going to buy it any time soon.

O'BRIEN: OK. All right, Jack, thanks.

Coming up in just a moment, if Michael Jackson is acquitted, could he rebuild his music career? A top music executive will lay out a plan, ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: Still to come this morning, the search for a missing Alabama student intensifies in Aruba. We'll have the latest on the investigation into Natalee Holloway's disappearance. That's ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: Expanding the search for missing Alabama teenager Natalee Holloway, as police question two hotel guards arrested in the case. We've got the latest live from Aruba.

On the verdict watch and the health watch in the Michael Jackson trial. His fate now in the hands of a jury, as the singer makes another trip to the emergency room. A live report's ahead.

And Iraq's military destroys a massive underground hide-out for insurgents near Fallujah. Is the city any safer? On this AMERICAN MORNING.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired June 6, 2005 - 08:30   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Al Qaeda's suspected number three is in U.S. custody. Pakistani officials say they've handed over Abu Farraj Al Libbi. He's wanted in connection with two assassination attempts against Pakistan's president. Some say he has close ties to Osama Bin Laden.
Out in California, the first full day of jury deliberations starts this morning in the Michael Jackson trial. According to Jackson's spokeswoman, the pop star was briefly hospitalized over the weekend for back pain, but he's back at home this morning. Court is said to be back in session in the next three hours.

And actor Russell Crowe is due in court today. New York police say Crowe was arrested early this morning after he allegedly threw a telephone at a hotel employee. Police say the actor was really angry that he couldn't place a call to Australia. The employee needed stitches to repair a cut on his face because of the phone throwing. Crowe is in New York promoting his latest movie "Cinderella Man." Lots of interest in this. I just checked CNN.com. It is the most popular story of all.

ALI VELSHI, CNN ANCHOR: Really?

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Doesn't surprise me at all. I mean, it's bizarre.

VELSHI: It was moving up in interest. But when it first came out, it sort of made the top 10 and started to edge up.

COSTELLO: Well, it just came out overnight. The interesting thing about this, though, is during the movie "Cinderella Man," they were instructed to be brutal. The two actors really didn't like fake it. So maybe this just carried over.

O'BRIEN: At least that's how his publicists are spinning it today, Carol. Thanks.

Let's get back to Iraq now. A massive underground insurgent hideout has been destroyed in central Iraq. A Marine patrol discovered a bunker the size of nine football fields last Thursday. Nobody was there, but there were stockpiles of weapons and living quarters inside of it too.

CNN military analyst retired Brigadier General David Grange live with us this morning from Oak Brook in Illinois this morning.

Nice to see you, General. Thanks for talking with us.

This obviously is huge. I mean, half a million square feet full of ammo and lots of things. How important is this find, do you think?

BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, I think it's very important. Even if there was no people found at the site at the time, I think they probably moved out -- they were tipped off and moved out ahead of time.

But, again, this is a site that possibly could have hid many insurgents, terrorists during the Fallujah operations, both of them. Or a launch site for terrorist attacks throughout Iraq. And going underground, subterranean, is a technique that the Saddam regime has used for years.

O'BRIEN: So when we go through the litany of what they were able to find -- and I'll just read it: machine guns, mortars, rockets, artillery rounds, black uniforms, ski masks, compasses, log books, night-vision goggles, fully charged cell phones. What does all of this reveal to you about the insurgents?

GRANGE: All about the continuing of an operation to support resourcing of an operation, both terrorist and insurgency, throughout Iraq. And I would not be surprised if there was other complexes like this that have not been found throughout Iraq.

O'BRIEN: No actual insurgents, as you have pointed out, just a moment ago. Does this signify to you then that, once again, the insurgents are a step ahead of the U.S. military and the Iraqi forces as well?

GRANGE: I don't know if they're a step ahead, but again, this type of a complex is very similar to what you would find -- well, you found things like this in Vietnam, where they had whole hospitals underground. There were things like this in North Korea. North Korean military, for a good part, their equipment, their capability is subterranean. And I would say Iran is probably very much like this as well.

I just think this took away a sanctuary that they would use when they needed it. It doesn't mean they're a step ahead, but that there's still a lot of things to be found in Iraq to suppress the enemy forces.

O'BRIEN: It's unclear exactly how the underground tunnel part of it all was found. I mean, we've seen pictures of the above-ground building part. Do you have any speculation on that? Would you say someone tipped off U.S. forces? they just stumbled across it? would it be possible to do that?

GRANGE: Well, I haven't seen the official results yet, but I would say it could happen either way, that a lot of times something like this is found by just an inquisitive GI, or it could have been an Iraqi soldier working with the coalition forces that received a tip- off from a local. And it's very -- you know, it's kind of matter of fact. What's that door lead to? And, boom, there you go. And then they found a whole series of tunnel complexes and cache sites, and that's usually how it happens.

O'BRIEN: When you look at the living spaces, I mean, there are showers and a working air-conditioner. Does that give you any sense of how organized these insurgents are?

GRANGE: Absolutely. These places, it's just like living above ground underground. The complexes are very, very elaborate. You know, you can think back in the last Fallujah offensive, when many of the insurgency supposedly left town before the fighting started. You could speculate that maybe many of them assembled here to then leave or to reinforce Fallujah, who knows? It depends on how tight the cordon was around Fallujah at the time. And there were some reports that there were places insurgents could slip out of Fallujah. So it could have been used for that. Since then, it was probably used for support all over Iraq.

O'BRIEN: A pretty remarkable find. Brigadier General David Grange joining us this morning. Nice to see you as always. Thanks -- Ari.

VELSHI: Thanks, Soledad.

There is a question in Tucson, Arizona today about whether police needed to shoot a 14-year-old boy. The boy is in critical condition. Allegedly, he stole an 80,000-pound earth-mover on Thursday. You're looking at pictures from that chase. He led police 15 miles at speeds up to 30 miles an hour. Now the officers say they made a split-second decision to shoot when he backed the earth-scraper toward them.

The lawyer for the 14-year-old boy, Greg Kuykendall, is in Tucson. He joins us this morning.

Greg, thanks for being with us.

GREG KUYKENDALL, TEENAGER'S ATTY.: Thanks for talking with me.

VELSHI: Let's get the latest update, first of all, on the boy's condition.

KUYKENDALL: It's pretty bad right now. He's in a drug-induced coma. His lung is collapsed, and he's going to be permanently paralyzed.

VELSHI: You believe it might have been two shots. Police are saying that they shot him once?

KUYKENDALL: I can't personally see bullet holes, but my understanding, from talking with the folks at the hospital, is he took a bullet about right here, which basically just went through him, and then another bullet that went under the armpit, and that's the one that did the damage.

VELSHI: Before we hear what the police had to say, I want to ask you what you understand to be the motivation for this. It's a very unusual situation. I mean, kids that go on joyrides often take a vehicle that's a little more nimble. This is a big vehicle. He was 14 years old. I've seen references to you mentioning that he may have been in an altered state because of something he did or may have been upset by something. What do you understand to be his motivations for doing this?

KUYKENDALL: Well, I honestly don't know what his motivations were. He's a kid, and a very immature kid. It's summer, and you know, around here, about half a dozen kids every summer lick Colorado river toads for enjoyment. There's some kind of hallucinogenic effect, and they end up going to the hospital. I mean, kids do stupid things.

And for me, what's important is not so much what stupid thing the kid did, but why the police had this child cornered in the desert and chose to use lethal force when there were so many other options available.

VELSHI: All right. Let's find out what the police have to say about that. The assistant chief of the Tucson police wasn't able to join us. But here's how he explained what happened when they reached this dead end, and they expected him to jump out of the vehicle.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ASST. CHIEF KERMIT MILLER, TUCSON, ARIZ. POLICE DEPT.: The two officers are now in front of the vehicle, as it's backing towards the other cars, made a split-second decision. There are officers in those cars. They're no match for an 80,000-pound piece of equipment. Somebody is going to get seriously injured or killed, and they made a split-second decision to end it there, and they fired.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELSHI: Greg, as you said, you feel like he was backed in. He was in that corner. The police cars were around him. They were able to get the officers sort of at least away, in your words. Tell me why you think the police did the wrong thing.

KUYKENDALL: Well, if what the police chief said were entirely accurate, then it would be different. But it's not accurate. What happened is everybody bailed out of their police cars as soon as they pulled up, and the earth-mover came to a stop. So everybody was out of their cars. And at that point, the earth-mover either was in reverse or began to roll backwards. When it began to roll backwards, the police decided to shoot, and really the only thing that was at risk at that point was police equipment, not police lives. Because everybody was out of their cars, and anybody can sidestep a tractor. This isn't like a car or a motorcycle or anything that moves really, really rapidly.

VELSHI: Greg, real quick, what happens next? Do the police charge the boy, and does the boy's family sue the police?

KUYKENDALL: Well, the police are waiting to charge the boy. A time limit starts clicking. The clock starts running once they charge him, and because he's such -- in such grave medical condition right now, they're waiting to charge him. And whether the family decides to sue the police or not is something that they've got to decide on their own.

VELSHI: Greg Kuykendall is joining us from Tucson, Arizona. He is the attorney for the boy who was shot by police as a result of that chase.

Greg, thanks for joining us -- Soledad.

KUYKENDALL: Thanks.

(WEATHER REPORT)

The nation's biggest discount retailer goes upscale. Andy's going to tell us about that in "Minding Your Business."

O'BRIEN: And coming up next, easing your pain. We're "Paging Dr. Gupta" to find out why more Americans are turning to an ancient remedy.

A look at that's ahead on AMERICAN MORNING. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: It's been around for thousands of years, but there's still a fresh fascination with acupuncture. As Dr. Sanjay Gupta tells us, more adults are exploring this alternative treatment to ease chronic pain.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For 25 years, pain has been smoldering throughout 51-year-old Darrell Ortiz's body. Several major work injuries turned into a nagging sort of pain at first, but then basic things like walking, going to the grocery store, eventually even going to work, became impossible.

DARRELL ORTIZ, IN SUFFERER: Excruciating. I feels like I've gone through all of my injuries all over again, like they just happened. There's some times where I almost want to give up completely, you know. The pain just takes over.

GUPTA: Pain also appears in the sharp hues and images born of Ortiz's palette. Each day, with each glide of his brush on canvas, he could paint away the dull painful throb. But eventually pain would invade even that.

ORTIZ: Just lifting my arm like this, you know, to paint, sometimes I couldn't do it. I'd paint for a half hour and have to go to bed, you know.

GUPTA: That was the last straw. He tried everything, potent pain drugs like Oxycotin and Percoset, exercise. Nothing worked over the long term.

ORTIZ: I was to the point where I was desperate. I was willing to try anything.

GUPTA: He swallowed his fear of needles and tried acupuncture.

(on camera): Studies seem to be stacking up in favor of acupuncture, according to the World Health Organization. They say inserting little needles like these can be effective for treating arthritis, headache, menopausal symptoms, low back pain, dental pain even. The theory is this: You have energy or chi flowing through natural channels in your bodies. Any interruption of those channels can cause tension, and subsequently cause disease. It's acupuncture that can help restore that throw flow.

DR. WEI HUANG, EMORY UNIV.: The theory of traditional Chinese medicine focuses on the whole body, and there's a harmony inside the body. The flow of the chi should be very fluid in order to maintain health.

GUPTA: Historically Western doctors may have been reluctant to use this 2,000-year-old practice, but the landscape is changing slowly.

DR. PETER JOHNSTONE, EMORY UNIV.: There are some things that we still don't do well, and there are things that we still don't understand well. And in an attempt to hopefully relieve suffering, we need to, I think, be open to the fact that there may be other avenues besides those that we were taught in medical school.

GUPTA: Mainstream options alone weren't helping Darrell Ortiz. He says using acupuncture as a complement to other therapies has made his life livable. A series of treatments keeps him pain free for months at a time.

ORTIZ: Since I've been doing the acupuncture, I've been having to take less drugs.

GUPTA: Fewer drugs, but more importantly, the ability to paint away his pain and to live a normal life.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: According to a recent poll by ABC News, "USA Today," and Stanford University, five percent of adults have used acupuncture for pain treatment.

Ahead this morning, Wal-Mart hoping a makeover is going to lure some new customers as company executives admit they made some mistakes.

Andy's got those stories as he minds your business, up next on AMERICAN MORNING.

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O'BRIEN: Welcome back, everybody.

JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Wal-Mart's on the defensive of late. Andy Serwer with that and the demise of the K-Mart cafes. "Minding Your Business." I didn't even know they had cafes.

ANDY SERWER, "FORTUNE" COLUMNIST: Yes, well, have a second of silence for that.

CAFFERTY: Can you get like a window table there?

SERWER: Yes, well, you could, right over the parking lot.

CAFFERTY: There you go.

SERWER: Beautiful stuff.

Let's talk about Wal-Mart, first of all, Jack. The biggest company in the world holding its annual meeting in Fayetteville, where the university is, right down the road from Bentonville. Here it is in the basketball arena. 20,000 people go to this thing. I was there last year, and it is massive. People from all over the world come, employees, shareholders. Why, he must be from U.K..

And then, of course, there's celebs because the company likes to roll out pitch people. Yes, that's Garth Brooks. He was there. Jon Bon Jovi. And then, of course, Jessica Simpson. Is that Jessica Simpson? Sure is.

O'BRIEN: New hairdo.

SERWER: Tresses. Yes, exactly, Soledad.

CAFFERTY: She and Wal-Mart kind of go together, you know?

SERWER: It all works, Jack. These guys talked a little bit about some of the problems they've had over the years. The chairman, Rob Walton, said we've made mistakes. And then another really interesting development, I think, is they've decided to go a little bit upscale, they've announced.

They're going to be having boutiques in some of their stores, with -- here are some of the items. Giant plasma TVs, 550-thread count Egyptian sheets. I didn't know they could get that many threads. Not 540. That's a lot of threads. Cashmere cardigans, and they're going to put in hardwood floors in these areas. They've also introduced a New York City design center, which is going to be really interesting. So they're trying to go upscale.

Now, speaking of Wal-Mart, a giant competitor of theirs, obviously, K-Mart. As Jack indicated, it's going to be closing down some of its eateries. Jack, you didn't know they had eateries.

CAFFERTY: I was unaware of that.

SERWER: You didn't -- you go to CostCo, apparently, you were telling me?

CAFFERTY: I do eat hot dogs when I go to CostCo. They have pretty good hot dogs there. SERWER: Well, they're closing down 200 of the K-Mart cafes across the country, saying if they're not profitable, they're going to close them. That makes good sense.

Let's talk about the markets. Futures are down this morning. And last week was not a particularly good one. You can see here, the Dow ended down 80 points for the week. Most of the damage done on Friday, when the weak jobs report. You can see, we're at 10,500 forever. About 100 points, 120, 130 points down for the year. So we just keep on flatlining.

CAFFERTY: There you go. Thanks, Andy.

SERWER: You're welcome.

CAFFERTY: Time for "The Cafferty File." If you've got rhythm, maybe you ought to thank your parents. The journal "Science" reports movement to music plays an important role in helping wire babies' brains to hear rhythm. Researchers tested moms and babies dancing to different beats and found that even babies a few months old caught on quickly to variations in rhythm. Researchers noted parents in the study seldom sang to their babies without bouncing or rocking them. Supposedly, any kind of music works -- rock, jazz, Mozart...

SERWER: Jessica Simpson.

CAFFERTY: Rap.

Developers in Lubbock, Texas, creating the first neighborhood guaranteed to be sex offender free. Milwaukee Ridge is being marketed as a subdivision that promises safety, including a criminal background check for home buyers and no convicted sex offenders. The no offender plan puts the responsibility on the home builders, who will face financial repercussions even if they unknowingly sell a home to a convicted sex offender.

The developers in Milwaukee Ridge plan to build 665 homes. These things sell for between $100,000 and $150,000. There are 46,000 registered sex offenders in the state of Texas and 413 of them live in the town of Lubbock.

Don't be fooled by the title of the new book "Conversations with George Bush." The author, a Martha Boone Mattia, didn't actually interview the president. She talked to 25 people that have his name. It's a little strange. The -- she bent the rules by including three women. There's a Georgia Bush, a Georgette Bush and a Georgiana Bush.

Mattias said she wrote the book out of curiosity for the patriotic outburst that followed the September 11 attacks and felt she could better understand the American character by interviewing people named George Bush. Huh? Almost all the Bushes interviewed owned guns. Most favored some gun control. Almost all of them oppose same sex marriage, but some supported civil unions for gay couples.

VELSHI: And coming out next week, my life as Jack Cafferty.

CAFFERTY: Really?

VELSHI: Without being interviewed for it.

SERWER: Right.

VELSHI: Or I'm not Jack Cafferty.

O'BRIEN: That's kind of a strange...

VELSHI: It's a very strange...

SERWER: It's called a gimmick.

O'BRIEN: Are there only 25 George Bushes? Is that what her -- or she just picked 25?

CAFFERTY: I have no idea.

SERWER: Well did she do his father?

CAFFERTY: I haven't read the book and...

SERWER: That's the question.

VELSHI: And you're not likely to?

CAFFERTY: Probably ain't going to buy it any time soon.

O'BRIEN: OK. All right, Jack, thanks.

Coming up in just a moment, if Michael Jackson is acquitted, could he rebuild his music career? A top music executive will lay out a plan, ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.

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O'BRIEN: Still to come this morning, the search for a missing Alabama student intensifies in Aruba. We'll have the latest on the investigation into Natalee Holloway's disappearance. That's ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.

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O'BRIEN: Expanding the search for missing Alabama teenager Natalee Holloway, as police question two hotel guards arrested in the case. We've got the latest live from Aruba.

On the verdict watch and the health watch in the Michael Jackson trial. His fate now in the hands of a jury, as the singer makes another trip to the emergency room. A live report's ahead.

And Iraq's military destroys a massive underground hide-out for insurgents near Fallujah. Is the city any safer? On this AMERICAN MORNING.

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