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Nancy Grace

Investigation Continues in the Case of Missing Alabama Teen; On the Verge of a Verdict for Jackson Trial;

Aired June 06, 2005 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, when an 18-year-old American girl went on her senior trip to Aruba, her dream turned into a nightmare. As two men are taken into custody, and the FBI moves in on the tiny island, the question hangs in the air tonight: Natalee Holloway, where are you?
And Michael Jackson lands back in the hospital over the weekend. That`s the third time during this one trial. But the headline is, we are in a verdict watch. And we are taking you live for the latest in the Michael Jackson child sex trial.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. And I want to thank you for being with us tonight.

Day 67, we are on a verdict watch in the Michael Jackson child sex trial. Tonight, the case is with the jury for the first full day of deliberations.

But first, the entire nation of Aruba looking for Natalee Holloway. Tonight, as the search grows, two men in custody in connection with Natalee`s disappearance. Back in Natalee Holloway`s hometown in Alabama, family and friends praying around the clock for Natalee to come home.

Tonight, in Aruba, family spokesperson for Natalee Holloway`s family, Carla Caccavale; in Santa Maria, California, Jackson family attorney Debra Opri; here in New York, defense attorney Dino Lombardi and psychologist Dr. Robi Ludwig.

But first, let`s go to Aruba and CNN correspondent Karl Penhaul. Karl, bring me up-to-date, friend.

KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Nancy, this afternoon there`s been a large-scale search. Some 500 government employees, we`re told, joined a search alongside Dutch marines on the wind-swept eastern tip of the island. We`ve seen them going through mangroves, through cactus, and through thorny scrub with poles looking for clues as to Natalee`s whereabouts.

This eastern tip of the island is not far from the town of San Nicolas, and that`s where the two suspects were arrested yesterday. Also, police officials have told me that in the course of the day those two suspects have been undergoing further interrogations but they`re saying they haven`t been that cooperative so far, Nancy.

GRACE: Well, here`s my question, Karl. What`s there not to be cooperative about? These two guys that are in police custody tonight that are being questioned, they are security guards for a nearby hotel, correct?

PENHAUL: That`s correct. That`s what we`re told. One is 28-years- old. The other is 30-years-old. We`re not being told much more about the rest of their backgrounds. But, yes, we are told that they were security guards at a hotel which really is only about 300, 400 yards from the Holiday Inn. And that`s at the opposite end of the island where they live and right close to the hotel where Natalee Holloway was staying during her stay here.

GRACE: With us in Aruba, CNN correspondent Karl Penhaul. Karl, OK, these two guys, these two security guards, age 28, age 30, worked for the Allegro, correct, the Allegro Hotel?

PENHAUL: That is correct. And over the weekend, the Allegro Hotel was searched. Now, that hotel has been under refurbishment for about the last month. There are a lot of open spaces there. There are several hundred rooms in that hotel. But nothing, we understand, was found. That hotel is still undergoing refurbishment. None of the work was stopped there.

GRACE: OK, Karl, let me ask you, were these two on duty the night that Natalee went missing?

PENHAUL: That we don`t know. We haven`t been told that. What we do understand, though, is that the three young men who were seen in Natalee`s company as she left the Mexican bar Carlos and Charlie`s, we understand they in interviews with the police did speak of seeing two men in the vicinity of the Holiday Inn. And that, we believe, is the link with the two suspects that were arrested.

GRACE: Now, Karl, those three young locals that were at the Carlos and Charlie restaurant bar, they have been cleared. They apparently gave the girl a ride home from the bar that evening and apparently went down on the beach?

PENHAUL: Not necessarily cleared, Nancy. I don`t think it`s fair to say that at this stage. Police are playing their cards fairly close to their chest. They are still describing those three men as persons of interest.

What they are also saying, in the course of the interrogations today, that the police are really trying to establish very firmly what the link may be between the two people that were arrested and these three young men.

Yes, you`re correct that they in their interviews with police say that they did go to the beach with Natalee and they do say that they dropped her off outside the Holiday Inn. But talking to hotel management here, they say there`s no sign on those video cameras that Natalee ever returned to the Holiday Inn.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BETTY TWITTY, MOTHER OF MISSING TEEN: She is an amazing 18-year-old girl. And Natalee is truly an angel. She`s a member of the National Honor Society. She`s a straight-A student. She`s proud of her 4.0 GPA. And, yes, she would argue that it`s much higher than that. Full University of Alabama academic scholarship recipient, a passionate dancer, as a matter of fact, she`s a Dorian. She`s the most devoted and loving friend.

GEORGE "JUG" TWITTY, STEPFATHER OF MISSING TEEN: I`m not sure we are prepared. I mean, we -- we`ve talked about different things, you know. But we still believe in our hearts that she`s out there, she`s alive, somebody`s holding her somewhere. Because mine and Beth`s thoughts are, if she is alive out there, she`s certainly alive and being held, you know, by somebody. She`s not out there because she wants to be out there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Here in the studio with me, Dr. Robi Ludwig. I was telling the story the other night about, just briefly, my mom was missing here in New York on one of her first visits up here, and what this family must be going through. What emotionally and psychologically are they going through right now?

DR. ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: It`s torturous. I mean, not knowing is almost worse than knowing. And I`m sure that the worst possible scenario is playing through their head. And they`re just thinking about all the various possibilities. So, of course, this is a living nightmare for the family.

GRACE: Well, I`ve got to ask you a question. The other night after Natalee`s mother was on with us, Mrs. Twitty, I got tons of e-mail saying she seemed to have very flat affect, showing no emotion.

You know, I imagine she is numb right now. She has gone to Aruba, everybody. She swears she`s not leaving until she brings Natalee home. I did not find that unusual at all. It`s a miracle to me the woman can even speak.

LUDWIG: No, absolutely. I mean, she is probably in shock. We don`t know if she was prescribed anything to help her get through this. So again, people who look on the outside can always make judgments. But it`s very difficult for these family members.

GRACE: Back to Karl Penhaul, CNN correspondent joining us tonight from Aruba. What led police to these two security guys, I`m guessing the three guys that picked her up from the bar?

PENHAUL: That certainly seems to be the indication. It seems to be that these arrests were based on information provided in those interviews by the three young men. We do understand that they were talking about seeing two men dressed in black or in dark uniforms in the vicinity of the Holiday Inn.

But as I say, those three men are still being regarded by police as persons of interest, because on the hotel video cameras, the security cameras here, there is no sign that Natalee ever actually came back through the lobby of the Holiday Inn.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LIZ SANONER, MISSING TEEN`S BIBLE STUDY LEADER: This is someone who, if she wasn`t going to be at bible study, would call before, say she couldn`t, make an appointment at a different time, sometimes 7:00 A.M. Friday morning, to come recite, you know, her scripture memory for the week.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Today, the Aruba government allowed all government employees to leave work a half-day early and join in the search for Natalee.

To Carla Caccavale -- she`s the spokesperson for Natalee`s family. I`m sure that gave a lot of strength and inspiration to Natalee`s family today.

CARLA CACCAVALE, SPOKESPERSON FOR HOLLOWAY FAMILY: Absolutely. Today was one of the better days for the family. Just the fact that so many people across the island were looking for Natalee, a, provided comfort, because there was more hands on deck helping out, and b, it just showed the support of the people of Aruba to Beth and the rest of the family.

GRACE: Carla, what can you tell us about this girl, about Natalee Holloway?

CACCAVALE: From what I -- I talk to Beth often. And one of the things she said to me before I was coming on camera today for numerous interviews, she said, "Carla," she said, "You have to make Natalee proud, because when she sees these tapes, she`s going to criticize you and critique you."

So it seems like she`s a really smart girl, straight-A student, they said a passionate dancer, just someone who was reliable. I mean, just an all-around, you know, Miss Perfect.

GRACE: To Dino Lombardi, defense attorney joining me. Dino, let`s take what we know right now and try to piece it together. We know she was at Carlos and Charlie`s restaurant bar. It`s kind of like an Applebee`s- type thing. And we know she left with these three locals. They were young. There were 18, too.

What was it, Karl? How old were the three that she left with?

PENHAUL: The three of aged between 18 and 25.

GRACE: OK. She left with them. People saw her leave. And then they said they went for a walk on the beach.

And Dino, I`ve been doing a little research. This hotel, this empty hotel that`s under renovation, the Allegro, is only a couple of hundred feet -- well, a couple of hundred yards from the Holiday Inn where she was staying.

Dino, I can see them walking along the beach right to where these two security guards are, grown men, 28 and 30. Now, you put that together, with these two allegedly being uncooperative, and now they`re looking in the water and in the scrub brush. What do you think, Dino? Put it together.

DINO LOMBARDI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think the focus is correctly on these two individuals. And what we don`t know here is whether these two individuals have any kinds of a record or anything in their background that may suggest involvement in inappropriate behavior or even criminal behavior.

But clearly, the nexus in time and place hands off from the three young men at Carlos and Charlie`s to these two individuals, who were apparently at the end of their shift or something like that, and they`re then seen in the vicinity of the...

GRACE: Yes.

LOMBARDI: They may have said something, despite how uncooperative they were, to authorities in the initial retention period, which is justified holding on to them and looking more closely at them.

But it`s just a very difficult thing. I think this family and we all can take some encouragement from the fact that the FBI is very much involved. And my understanding of our relationship with Aruba is that we have a very good, tight relationship with them.

GRACE: And Elizabeth, can you show us the map that we made of Aruba for the viewers? It`s only 19.6 miles in length, 6 miles across. There you see Carlos and Charlie`s right at the tip of the island, the Holiday Inn.

And like many of these little dive islands, diving islands, all the big hotels are right along the beach, right on the beach in one big, long row, to make it convenient for people that want to just walk in and start diving.

You know, Debra Opri, Dino brings up a very good point. These two security guards that were in that vicinity may very well, for all we know, have just been walking the grounds. But what raises up the hair on the back of my neck is that they`re being uncooperative. Why?

DEBRA OPRI, JACKSON FAMILY LAWYER: Well, something to hide. If I were the police investigators, I would initially start with, what leads can they give us? And they obviously have given a significant amount of leads, Nancy, because they`re now looking with divers in the water.

We have one thing that`s inherent here. We have to find evidence. And if a body is evidence, or if a girl in transport to Colombia for the drug trade prostitution is evidence, we`ve got to find something, because at this point in time, the greatest fear is leading to a dead-end.

GRACE: Everybody, we are live in Aruba with all of the latest regarding the mysterious disappearance of an 18-year-old Alabama girl. The FBI has landed on the tiny island of Aruba trying to find Natalee Holloway. Stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BETH TWITTY: Our primary goal is to bring Natalee back home. We will do whatever it takes. As I`ve said from the beginning, I`m not leaving Aruba without her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GERALD DOMPIG, ARUBA POLICE CHIEF: You could say three theories. One is, as you all know, these persons of interest might have done something wrong to Natalee. That`s one area. The other area is that this person is just missing, in terms of somewhere else, for whatever reason. And the last theory is, of course, a kidnapping. But as law enforcement, you cannot exclude anything.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. We are live in Aruba with the latest on a missing Alabama girl, just 18-years-old. She went along with about 150 -- wasn`t it 150, Ellie? About 100 of her students -- her fellow students that went away for graduation. About 40 chaperones and parents went along with them. That`s quite a bit of chaperones.

Long story short, she disappeared the night before they were to leave to come back. In her hotel room in the Holiday Inn, they found the girl`s bags neatly packed. They found her pocketbook, her passport, everything. One thing was missing that they know of, only her driver`s license. And let`s talk about that for a moment.

Karl Penhaul, a CNN correspondent, is in Aruba. Karl, has her driver`s license been found?

PENHAUL: No, according to prosecutors and police investigators, none of Natalee`s possessions or any of her clothing has been found. The two suspects arrested yesterday, their homes were thoroughly searched by police. And police did take away bags of possessions and also confiscated three cars.

But they`ve been very specific. Nothing of Natalee`s has been found. The reason why she may have taken her driving license out with her is for some form of official I.D. Here, unlike the States, 18-years-old, like under European law, is the legal age for drinking and such like, and in many of the bars here, you have to provide some form of I.D. so that you`re allowed to enter and allowed to consume beer or any other alcohol. So that`s quite likely the reason why Natalee took along her driving license.

GRACE: So it sounds to me, Karl, like she packed to leave before she went to Carlos and Charlie`s for dinner or whatever, had everything ready, so when she came back, it would be ready for her in the morning, taking only her driver`s license and probably some cash to go to the bar. Has her credit card been used whatsoever since this time?

PENHAUL: Those kind of details haven`t been provided by investigators, but so far there`s nothing that would indicate that.

GRACE: You know what`s interesting, Karl, is, in this country under our justice system, you simply can`t be arrested and then you say, for what? And they say, "Well, we`ll tell you tomorrow." No, you have to have a formal cause of arrest here. But there in Aruba, not so. Isn`t it true that a suspect can be held for at least two days without finding out why they`re arrested?

PENHAUL: Yes and no. Dutch law is very different from U.S. law. It`s similar to law in other parts of Europe, as well. And obviously, Aruba is a Dutch dependency.

From what we talked to the prosecutors for, essentially, in this case, these two men, being suspects and being formally arrested, they are, in fact, charged but rather than level specific charges at them, they`re presented with a kind of a menu of charges, if you like. And then as the investigation gets narrowed down, then items on that menu of charges will be either included or excluded.

But there are very strict habeas corpus laws, in terms of that they have to be presented to prosecutors or judges within a certain amount of time. One of those deadlines, the 48-hour deadline, comes up tomorrow. At that point, prosecutors and judges will have to decide whether to keep these men in custody or whether to release them.

GRACE: OK, Karl, let me get this straight. Yes, no, are they in custody?

PENHAUL: They are in custody. They are arrested.

GRACE: OK. Yes, no, do we know what the charges are?

PENHAUL: Crimes relating to the disappearance of Natalee Holloway.

GRACE: Do we know what the crime is?

PENHAUL: Not the specific charges of the crime.

GRACE: OK, interesting. Now, what time were they taken into custody?

PENHAUL: About 7:00 a.m. yesterday. And we`re on the same time here in Aruba as Eastern time USA.

GRACE: 7:00 a.m. yesterday, so by 7:00 a.m. tomorrow, Tuesday, they`ve got to either be formally charged or cut loose?

PENHAUL: They are formally charged. But it`s actually 1:00 p.m. Because, first of all, they were arrested at 7:00 a.m. There was a six- hour detention period there. At the end of that six-hour detention period, another 48-hour detention period begins. So 1:00 p.m. tomorrow.

GRACE: OK.

Back out to Carla Caccavale. She is the family spokesperson for Natalee Holloway`s family. How is the family holding up tonight?

CACCAVALE: They`re really strong. Today, like I said, was a good day for them. They were out, and they were positive. They were briefed by the police this morning. Unfortunately, no additional information is available at this time.

And like I said, they found a lot of support in last night`s prayer vigil that was held on island and also a great deal of support today from the search operation conducted by the government employees across the island. About 500 to 600 people showed up, they said.

GRACE: Karl Penhaul, CNN correspondent in Aruba, a lot of interest was stirred today because a mattress was discovered with blood on it. It has since turned out not to even be human blood, correct?

PENHAUL: That`s correct. That mattress was discovered yesterday on the eastern tip of the island. FBI agents were called in to help with some more sophisticated tests on the mattress. Very quickly, that blood sample was ruled out. It was actually the blood of a dog.

GRACE: Everyone, we are going to break. We are live in Aruba tonight with all of the latest on a missing 18-year-old Alabama girl on her high school graduation trip. An honor student, Natalee Holloway, was last seen leaving a restaurant there in Aruba and has seemingly vanished off this tiny island.

As we go to break, to "Trial Tracking." Brandi Stahr, Texas A&M student, disappeared into thin air seven years ago, found. Apparently she ran away after a fight with her mother over bad grades. She`s been working at a Sam`s Club in Kentucky ever since.

The kicker, Brandi was working under her real name, with her own Social Security number. But for seven years, cops said they couldn`t find her. They gave the excuse they couldn`t access her IRS records.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Michael Jackson, starring on a stage before his most recent starring role in a courtroom. Welcome back, everybody.

It is day 67 in the Michael Jackson child sex trial. And we are in a verdict watch. Thank you for being with us.

Let`s go straight out to Santa Maria, California. Trial attorney Anne Bremner there.

But first, to "Celebrity Justice" correspondent Jane Velez-Mitchell. Bring me up-to-date, Jane.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": Nancy, another really, really bizarre day in the Michael Jackson trial. As jurors were inside the courthouse doing their first full day of deliberations, outside the courthouse, chaos, absolute chaos, erupted when Joe Jackson, Michael Jackson`s father, was suddenly spotted walking down the street toward the courthouse.

Mobbed by fans, mobbed by the media -- you must realize at this point there are more than 2,000 credentialed members of the media from all over the world. He literally had to fight, and push, and shove his way to get to the main gate.

And at that point, he implored a sheriff`s deputy, "Where is my son? I need to be where my son is." The sheriff`s deputy informed him that the son was not at the courthouse, that he didn`t know where Michael Jackson was.

More chaos. Where is Michael Jackson? It turns out it may have been just a big case of mixed signals. We saw the video. Michael Jackson`s caravan was leaving Neverland just as his dad`s car was pulling up. Joe did a U-turn, tried to follow the caravan and race to the courthouse, mistakenly thinking it was a verdict.

Well, it turns out those SUVs were going, according to published reports, to the car wash to get washed. And this dad in a panic raced to be with his son. All a false alarm, but certainly an indication of the stress that the Jackson family is under right now.

GRACE: We`re live in Santa Maria, California. Standing by, Anne Bremner and Jane Velez-Mitchell. We`ll all be right back. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK

GRACE: Las Vegas, the place is up for grabs tonight, odds 2-to-1 Jackson will be convicted in one to five counts. Simpson (ph)

Welcome back, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us tonight.

Let`s go straight back out to Jane Velez-Mitchell. Jane, was Jackson in the hospital once or twice over the weekend? Clear that up for us, please.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, he was in the hospital toward the end of last week, and then he was in the hospital yesterday. And I have to tell you, speaking of bedlam, I was outside the hospital yesterday as he left, and another case of chaos. As the caravan of SUVs left, reporters apparently got too close or didn`t move out of the way fast enough. One found his videocamera confiscated and had to invoke the shield law to get it back. There was a scuffle that broke out between some still photographers and somebody who was purportedly a security guard. A camera smashed to the ground. I watched all of this.

Really, chaos wherever you turn here. The tension level is enormous. People in this area, in general, are kind of getting tired of the media circus, and tempers are flaring.

GRACE: Jane, it seems to me wherever there`s chaos, you happen to be right in the middle of it.

(LAUGHTER)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Is it me? I hope not! I`m just going where I`m assigned. I think the other person who was in the middle of it could possibly be Michael Jackson, or at least the issue is Michael Jackson. I mean, there`s a lot of drama around Michael Jackson. There always has been. In the case of his theatrical performances, it`s good drama. But then, of course, there`s something psychiatrists call negative excitement, and that is something that seems to surround him, as well.

GRACE: Debra Opri, Jackson family attorney, why was Jackson in the hospital this weekend?

DEBRA OPRI, ATTORNEY FOR JACKSON`S PARENTS: I spoke to Tom Mesereau earlier today, and Tom Mesereau and the Jackson family have asked all the friends and family members who are speaking to the press about Michael Jackson`s medical condition, his spiritual status, to just back off a little bit.

Michael Jackson is fine. Media reports that he had a back exacerbation are correct, but he did fine last night. He`s doing fine today. There is no medical issue.

The issues that remain right now is that Thomas Mesereau is asking all friends and family who are doing interviews to please stop and let the jury deliberation process go forth without interference in the media.

As well, Jackson family members are asking the court again to please allot enough seats so that all of Michael Jackson`s siblings and family members will be there for the verdict in the courtroom, rather than the hallway.

GRACE: Anne Bremner, what`s the deal with Jackson going back in the hospital at the end of last week -- I`m taking that to be Friday -- then over the weekend? This is another chapter in a long-standing history of getting sick whenever the heat turns on. What was it this time? Back ailment, dehydration? What?

ANNE BREMNER, TRIAL ATTORNEY: Exactly. Electrolytes. You know, you say what a coincidence, a coincidence in terms of the timing because, of course, we had pajama day in the midst of the accuser`s testimony, and then now we`ve got jury deliberations. And don`t forget, Nancy, that the first time he went to the hospital in this case and disrupted court, it was during jury selection. And now we have that machine outside of his house at Neverland. We kind of call it the "way back machine." Remember Sherman (ph) and Peabody (ph)? But it`s really for your blood, to stop your heart or do something to ease the heart.

Now, people get sick, you know, and they have issues, but the timing of these, I think some people have felt, has been suspect in terms of his hospitalizations in connection with this trial.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RANDY TAMBORELLI, MICHAEL JACKSON BIOGRAPHER: There have been instances when he`s had to perform on stage and he was upset about one thing or another, and he would have a panic attack and actually has been hospitalized. I can tell you from my own sources in the Jackson camp that he is very sick right now and has been for quite some time. It is the back. It`s not an exaggeration.

Vitiligo is a true condition. It`s not a made-up Michael Jackson fantasy. He was diagnosed back in the 1980s. He does have it, and you know, it is an issue in his life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Dr. Robi Ludwig, what do you make of the latest trip to the hospital? The jury doesn`t know about it.

ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Yes.

GRACE: It`s not going to affect deliberations.

LUDWIG: I think he really is struggling. His whole life is on the line. His career is on the line. His reputation is on the line. Michael Jackson likes attention, but you know, he`s under a lot of duress. He certainly doesn`t want to go to jail. And you can have a medical condition and it be psychologically exacerbated.

GRACE: To Dino Lombardi, defense attorney. Robi Ludwig is right, his career, his life on line. He could do hard jail time if he`s convicted on any of these felony counts. But Dino, the reality is, back in `93, Cochran, Johnnie Cochran, my old sparring buddy, got him out of an indictment. He did not have to face a jury trial.

DINO LOMBARDI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right.

GRACE: That should have been warning right there: Stop sleeping with little boys, right there, and he would not be in this predicament.

LOMBARDI: Should very much have been a wake-up call to him. But I would also say, too, that he should really be sensitive to the fact that while his life is on the line here, that the jury, family members of the jury, will see these coinkydinks (ph), as Anne said correctly, I think, as efforts to play to them and to seek their sympathy, and it could very badly backfire on him. So I don`t know where these ideas spring from, Michael or his supporters or his handlers, but I think it`s bad news for him to try and make these ploys and plays.

GRACE: Well, luckily, Dino, the jury doesn`t know what we know. They don`t know that he was back in the hospital twice within a couple of days again.

LOMBARDI: We`re making an assumption there, Nancy.

GRACE: Yes. You know what? You`re right.

LOMBARDI: Yes.

GRACE: Some of them may have read the news or seen the TV.

LOMBARDI: Of course.

GRACE: Let`s see. Let me count it up. Anne Bremner, there -- let me go to Jane Velez-Mitchell on this. Anne told us there was a time during jury selection he went in the hospital. We know the day that the boy accuser was to take the stand, he went to the hospital. Then at the end of last week and then over the weekend. That`s four, right? Am I missing one?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s about four, yes. To our estimation, it`s four times. And what`s interesting is there has never been a missed day of trial due to any kind of juror illness or lateness. This jury has a perfect record of showing up every single day on time and doing their duty. So it`s a stark contrast.

And I agree with your other guest who said that if word gets out, that this could backfire, because this is a small farming community and people talk over the picket fence. Hey, you know, neighbor, did you hear he`s back in the hospital, and that kind of thing. It might be impossible for them not to overhear this, and there may be resentment that builds up as they`re working so hard to go through this very, very complex case.

And I can show you right here, this is the jury instruction booklet. Take a look at that. That`s the size of a movie script, 98 pages. They`ve got more than 130 witnesses` testimony to go through, 700 exhibits. I mean, this jury has a lot of work to do. And if they get wind of this, it could really backfire.

GRACE: Take a listen to this, Jane.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP - "60 MINUTES")

MICHAEL JACKSON: If you`re going to be a pedophile, if you`re going to be Jack the Ripper, if you`re going to be a murderer, it`s not a good idea. That, I`m not. I didn`t sleep in the bed with the child. Even if I did, it`s OK. I slept on the floor.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That is from Jackson`s first public response to these current child molestation charges. There were other moments during the Bashir documentary where he basically bragged that he slept with children and that that was a sign of giving love. Dino Lombardi hit the nail on the head, Dr. Robi Ludwig, that he should have stopped...

LUDWIG: Yes.

GRACE: ... be it innocent or not innocent, sleeping with boys after Cochran got him out of the `93 felony charges. Why can`t he stop?

LUDWIG: And you and I know that he`s been advised to stop. He has --

GRACE: Yes, Maureen Orth told us that...

LUDWIG: That`s right.

GRACE: ... the other night, the "Vanity Fair" writer.

LUDWIG: And he rejected that. And it`s because he has an obsessive- compulsive disorder. He has a compulsion where he can`t not stop. And then in his own mind, much like alcoholism, he creates a reason for why he does what he does. So even if he were to promise to somebody that he would stop and change his ways, I don`t know if he`s truly capable of doing it because the underlying problem hasn`t been addressed yet.

GRACE: We are live in Santa Maria with the latest in the Michael Jackson trial. We`ll go straight back out when we get back.

But first, to tonight`s "All Points Bulletin." FBI and law enforcement across the country on the lookout for this man, William Barney, wanted in connection with sex acts on a 12-year-old boy in Vegas. Barney, 55, 5-9, 200 pounds -- take a look -- brown hair, blue eyes, scars on leg, forehead and chest. If you have information, call the FBI, 782-385-1281.

Local news is coming up for some of you, but we`ll all be right back. And remember, live coverage of the Jackson verdict watch tomorrow, 3: 00 to 5:00 Eastern on Court TV`s "Closing Arguments."

Please stay with us as we remember Captain Jeremy Fresques, 26 years old, an American hero.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAYMONE BAIN, MICHAEL JACKSON SPOKESPERSON: He is innocent of these false charges. He has a great confidence in the justice system, and he is hoping and believing that the jury is going to acquit him of these charges.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. We are live in Santa Maria in the case against Michael Jackson. We are waiting for the jury to hand down a verdict against the so-called "king of pop." Believe it or not, there are many people in this country and across the world that believe Michael Jackson is a deity. That`s right, a cross between a man and a god. You heard it right.

Straight out to Jane Velez-Mitchell. Jane, let`s talk about these jurors for just a moment. Everybody`s taking a look at what the jury is going to do. Let`s take a look at them for a moment. Elizabeth (ph), give me that screen, please, dear, of the jurors.

Juror one, male, age 62, civil engineer, three kids. Two, male, age 63, retired, post-grad degree, two sons. Three, female, 50, no kids. Four, female, 51, high school teacher, two kids. Five, female, age 79. She`s been seen shaking her head often, No, throughout the trial, widow, grandson registered sex offender. Juror six, 22-year-old woman, physical therapy aide. Juror seven, 42-year-old female, Air Force veteran, sister raped, two nieces molested. Number eight has caused quite a stir. We`ll get Jane Velez-Mitchell to tell us about that -- 39-year-old female. Nine, 45-year-old female. Works for the local supermarket, husband arrested for drunk driving. Ten, 20-year-old male, cashier, relative works for Jackson`s doctor. He has visited Neverland. Eleven, 21-year-old male, has cerebral palsy, visited Neverland age 6. And twelve, 44-year-old female, works at Department of Social Services, ex-husband police officer, one son. She knows all about Welfare cheats.

To Jane Velez-Mitchell, what can you tell me about this juror number eight? Is she the one that`s been winking at Katherine Jackson, Michael Jackson`s mom?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, there have been so many stories that have spread about various members of the jury. I haven`t heard that one. We`ve heard, of course, about one member of the jury -- one juror whose sister actually worked with somebody who testified in the case, a young man who said he was molested by Michael Jackson. There`s been word that one juror might have a book deal. We asked today to get comments from the court. By the way, it`s kind of windy and gusty out here, a farming community. We did not get any comment from the court on the possible book deal being reported.

And as for a wink -- there`s been a lot of interpretation of these jurors. What are they thinking? What are they doing? Every time one of them blows their nose, somebody reports that they`re crying. It`s really hard to read them. I can tell you that they`re relatively well educated. Most of them had some college. Three are seniors. Three are in their 20s. The rest are somewhere in the middle. We have a math teacher, a horse trainer.

It`s a diverse group -- three Latinos, an Asian, no African-Americans. But other than the fact that there are no African-Americans, in other ways, it is a very diverse group. One of the jurors is in a wheelchair. It`s a very interesting group of people.

GRACE: To Anne Bremner, what is this about a juror with a book deal already in place?

BREMNER: (INAUDIBLE) the 79-year-old grandmother, the one that some have -- including myself, have seen wink a couple of times at Katherine Jackson. She carries her own pillow and her blanket into the jury box when she comes in. And she`s very attentive, and sometimes she shakes her head and did a little tongue clucking when she heard Michael Jackson say in the outtakes that he was a messiah or a deity or a Gandhi replacement. She wasn`t buying that.

But she`s reportedly -- according to "The LA Times" and other reports, has a book deal or is going to have one. Her granddaughter has reported this. But she hasn`t indicated what she`s going to say. She hasn`t signed a contract. And there`s no indication from her that she`s leaning one way or the other in the case, and she made this decision before the trial actually commenced.

GRACE: Well, to Debra Opri, the Jackson family lawyer -- Debra, until one side or the other objects to a juror having a book deal, we can all deride it as much as we want to, but unless they object to it and put it on the record, it`s for naught.

OPRI: You`re absolutely correct. Of course, if the verdict doesn`t come down the way Tom Mesereau and the defense anticipate it would be, I`m sure this would be a great issue and ripe for appeal. As to the other deliberations, you know, look at the jurors. They had two hours on Friday to pick a foreman. They then had a full day today. And the attorneys were waiting patiently in that hallway. So the jurors, I think, are doing an outstanding job. They know their duties. And I don`t think any issue or rumor of a book deal will interfere with these deliberations.

GRACE: But Dino Lombardi, that`s not how objections work. You have to make the objection contemporaneously. When you find out a juror already has a book deal in place, you either object them or you waive it on appeal. You can`t wait and decide if you like the verdict and then make an objection, Dino.

LOMBARDI: Yes. In fact, I just had that in a major case here in New York. You have to object at the time you find out about it, especially when you`re talking about jury selection, because then that juror is seated and you can`t undo that. So if the defense knew about it, they had to record that objection somewhere.

GRACE: And also, Dino, the really is, they could object now because they`re just learning -- if they`re just learning about the book deal now. Maybe they don`t like the next alternate.

LOMBARDI: Right.

GRACE: Maybe each side thinks she`s on their side and they don`t want to (INAUDIBLE) about the book deal.

LOMBARDI: Exactly. So they`re only going to object if and when they learn about it and if they think that the guy or gal who replaces that juror is better or worse for them.

GRACE: Yes. OK, while I`ve got her, Jane Velez-Mitchell, go ahead. Go out on a limb. How long will jury deliberations go? What`s the verdict? You can change your mind tomorrow night, but as of tonight, what are you thinking?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, good. OK. Now that you`ve told me that -- well, again, this is sheer speculation. Who knows? but I would think by the end of the week -- I know when Friday rolls around here, everybody just is exhausted. So I would say by Friday, they`re going to be looking at each other, going, We want to get closure before the weekend.

GRACE: We are taking a quick break. And as we go to break -- you know, I tried felony cases, prosecuted them for many, many years in inner- city Atlanta and now have been analyzing them. And I realized I`ve got an objection to the way Lady Justice is being treated! Proceeds from the book going to National Center Missing Exploited Children.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: We at NANCY GRACE want very much to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Tonight, take a look at Shania Supanich, just 8 years old. Shania last seen in Auburn, Washington, April 2, 2004. Police say she may be in the company of a non-custodial father, Mark (ph) Supanich. There`s a police warrant for his arrest. If you have any information on Shania Supanich, please contact the Auburn Police Department, 253-931-3080, or go to BeyondMissing.com. Please help us.

Welcome back, everybody. Let`s quickly go a round robin. First of all, to you, Debra Opri. Time of deliberations, verdict.

OPRI: By Wednesday afternoon, it`ll be 20 hours. I think that`ll be enough for an acquittal, if they take out conspiracy early on and answer the question with the reasonable doubt laws that they don`t believe that Michael Jackson molested the child.

GRACE: Anne Bremner.

BREMNER: Tuesday, Wednesday at the latest, guilty molestation and alcohol.

GRACE: Dino Lombardi?

LOMBARDI: I`d say later. Thursday, Friday, guilty of molestation and alcohol.

GRACE: Robi?

LUDWIG: I say Friday, not guilty on all counts.

GRACE: Not guilty on all counts?

LUDWIG: Guilty on some, not all.

GRACE: You know what? Make up your mind, all right?

LUDWIG: Some, not all.

GRACE: OK. Lawyers on the panel, no Robi Ludwig on the jury, OK? She`s cracking right here on the set! OK, and finally to Jane Velez- Mitchell. Any change in the routine tomorrow? What time do they start deliberating?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: At 8:30 A.M. And they don`t drive in themselves anymore, they meet at a predetermined location and then they come in a van, and then they leave at 2:30.

GRACE: Man, how I`d like to be a fly on the wall in that van!

OK, thanks to everybody. I want to thank all of my guests tonight, but my biggest thank you, as always, is to you for being with all of us, inviting all of us into your home tonight. Coming up, headlines from all around the world, Larry on CNN. I`m Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. I hope to see you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 o`clock sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END


Aired June 6, 2005 - 20:00:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, when an 18-year-old American girl went on her senior trip to Aruba, her dream turned into a nightmare. As two men are taken into custody, and the FBI moves in on the tiny island, the question hangs in the air tonight: Natalee Holloway, where are you?
And Michael Jackson lands back in the hospital over the weekend. That`s the third time during this one trial. But the headline is, we are in a verdict watch. And we are taking you live for the latest in the Michael Jackson child sex trial.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. And I want to thank you for being with us tonight.

Day 67, we are on a verdict watch in the Michael Jackson child sex trial. Tonight, the case is with the jury for the first full day of deliberations.

But first, the entire nation of Aruba looking for Natalee Holloway. Tonight, as the search grows, two men in custody in connection with Natalee`s disappearance. Back in Natalee Holloway`s hometown in Alabama, family and friends praying around the clock for Natalee to come home.

Tonight, in Aruba, family spokesperson for Natalee Holloway`s family, Carla Caccavale; in Santa Maria, California, Jackson family attorney Debra Opri; here in New York, defense attorney Dino Lombardi and psychologist Dr. Robi Ludwig.

But first, let`s go to Aruba and CNN correspondent Karl Penhaul. Karl, bring me up-to-date, friend.

KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Nancy, this afternoon there`s been a large-scale search. Some 500 government employees, we`re told, joined a search alongside Dutch marines on the wind-swept eastern tip of the island. We`ve seen them going through mangroves, through cactus, and through thorny scrub with poles looking for clues as to Natalee`s whereabouts.

This eastern tip of the island is not far from the town of San Nicolas, and that`s where the two suspects were arrested yesterday. Also, police officials have told me that in the course of the day those two suspects have been undergoing further interrogations but they`re saying they haven`t been that cooperative so far, Nancy.

GRACE: Well, here`s my question, Karl. What`s there not to be cooperative about? These two guys that are in police custody tonight that are being questioned, they are security guards for a nearby hotel, correct?

PENHAUL: That`s correct. That`s what we`re told. One is 28-years- old. The other is 30-years-old. We`re not being told much more about the rest of their backgrounds. But, yes, we are told that they were security guards at a hotel which really is only about 300, 400 yards from the Holiday Inn. And that`s at the opposite end of the island where they live and right close to the hotel where Natalee Holloway was staying during her stay here.

GRACE: With us in Aruba, CNN correspondent Karl Penhaul. Karl, OK, these two guys, these two security guards, age 28, age 30, worked for the Allegro, correct, the Allegro Hotel?

PENHAUL: That is correct. And over the weekend, the Allegro Hotel was searched. Now, that hotel has been under refurbishment for about the last month. There are a lot of open spaces there. There are several hundred rooms in that hotel. But nothing, we understand, was found. That hotel is still undergoing refurbishment. None of the work was stopped there.

GRACE: OK, Karl, let me ask you, were these two on duty the night that Natalee went missing?

PENHAUL: That we don`t know. We haven`t been told that. What we do understand, though, is that the three young men who were seen in Natalee`s company as she left the Mexican bar Carlos and Charlie`s, we understand they in interviews with the police did speak of seeing two men in the vicinity of the Holiday Inn. And that, we believe, is the link with the two suspects that were arrested.

GRACE: Now, Karl, those three young locals that were at the Carlos and Charlie restaurant bar, they have been cleared. They apparently gave the girl a ride home from the bar that evening and apparently went down on the beach?

PENHAUL: Not necessarily cleared, Nancy. I don`t think it`s fair to say that at this stage. Police are playing their cards fairly close to their chest. They are still describing those three men as persons of interest.

What they are also saying, in the course of the interrogations today, that the police are really trying to establish very firmly what the link may be between the two people that were arrested and these three young men.

Yes, you`re correct that they in their interviews with police say that they did go to the beach with Natalee and they do say that they dropped her off outside the Holiday Inn. But talking to hotel management here, they say there`s no sign on those video cameras that Natalee ever returned to the Holiday Inn.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BETTY TWITTY, MOTHER OF MISSING TEEN: She is an amazing 18-year-old girl. And Natalee is truly an angel. She`s a member of the National Honor Society. She`s a straight-A student. She`s proud of her 4.0 GPA. And, yes, she would argue that it`s much higher than that. Full University of Alabama academic scholarship recipient, a passionate dancer, as a matter of fact, she`s a Dorian. She`s the most devoted and loving friend.

GEORGE "JUG" TWITTY, STEPFATHER OF MISSING TEEN: I`m not sure we are prepared. I mean, we -- we`ve talked about different things, you know. But we still believe in our hearts that she`s out there, she`s alive, somebody`s holding her somewhere. Because mine and Beth`s thoughts are, if she is alive out there, she`s certainly alive and being held, you know, by somebody. She`s not out there because she wants to be out there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Here in the studio with me, Dr. Robi Ludwig. I was telling the story the other night about, just briefly, my mom was missing here in New York on one of her first visits up here, and what this family must be going through. What emotionally and psychologically are they going through right now?

DR. ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: It`s torturous. I mean, not knowing is almost worse than knowing. And I`m sure that the worst possible scenario is playing through their head. And they`re just thinking about all the various possibilities. So, of course, this is a living nightmare for the family.

GRACE: Well, I`ve got to ask you a question. The other night after Natalee`s mother was on with us, Mrs. Twitty, I got tons of e-mail saying she seemed to have very flat affect, showing no emotion.

You know, I imagine she is numb right now. She has gone to Aruba, everybody. She swears she`s not leaving until she brings Natalee home. I did not find that unusual at all. It`s a miracle to me the woman can even speak.

LUDWIG: No, absolutely. I mean, she is probably in shock. We don`t know if she was prescribed anything to help her get through this. So again, people who look on the outside can always make judgments. But it`s very difficult for these family members.

GRACE: Back to Karl Penhaul, CNN correspondent joining us tonight from Aruba. What led police to these two security guys, I`m guessing the three guys that picked her up from the bar?

PENHAUL: That certainly seems to be the indication. It seems to be that these arrests were based on information provided in those interviews by the three young men. We do understand that they were talking about seeing two men dressed in black or in dark uniforms in the vicinity of the Holiday Inn.

But as I say, those three men are still being regarded by police as persons of interest, because on the hotel video cameras, the security cameras here, there is no sign that Natalee ever actually came back through the lobby of the Holiday Inn.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LIZ SANONER, MISSING TEEN`S BIBLE STUDY LEADER: This is someone who, if she wasn`t going to be at bible study, would call before, say she couldn`t, make an appointment at a different time, sometimes 7:00 A.M. Friday morning, to come recite, you know, her scripture memory for the week.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Today, the Aruba government allowed all government employees to leave work a half-day early and join in the search for Natalee.

To Carla Caccavale -- she`s the spokesperson for Natalee`s family. I`m sure that gave a lot of strength and inspiration to Natalee`s family today.

CARLA CACCAVALE, SPOKESPERSON FOR HOLLOWAY FAMILY: Absolutely. Today was one of the better days for the family. Just the fact that so many people across the island were looking for Natalee, a, provided comfort, because there was more hands on deck helping out, and b, it just showed the support of the people of Aruba to Beth and the rest of the family.

GRACE: Carla, what can you tell us about this girl, about Natalee Holloway?

CACCAVALE: From what I -- I talk to Beth often. And one of the things she said to me before I was coming on camera today for numerous interviews, she said, "Carla," she said, "You have to make Natalee proud, because when she sees these tapes, she`s going to criticize you and critique you."

So it seems like she`s a really smart girl, straight-A student, they said a passionate dancer, just someone who was reliable. I mean, just an all-around, you know, Miss Perfect.

GRACE: To Dino Lombardi, defense attorney joining me. Dino, let`s take what we know right now and try to piece it together. We know she was at Carlos and Charlie`s restaurant bar. It`s kind of like an Applebee`s- type thing. And we know she left with these three locals. They were young. There were 18, too.

What was it, Karl? How old were the three that she left with?

PENHAUL: The three of aged between 18 and 25.

GRACE: OK. She left with them. People saw her leave. And then they said they went for a walk on the beach.

And Dino, I`ve been doing a little research. This hotel, this empty hotel that`s under renovation, the Allegro, is only a couple of hundred feet -- well, a couple of hundred yards from the Holiday Inn where she was staying.

Dino, I can see them walking along the beach right to where these two security guards are, grown men, 28 and 30. Now, you put that together, with these two allegedly being uncooperative, and now they`re looking in the water and in the scrub brush. What do you think, Dino? Put it together.

DINO LOMBARDI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think the focus is correctly on these two individuals. And what we don`t know here is whether these two individuals have any kinds of a record or anything in their background that may suggest involvement in inappropriate behavior or even criminal behavior.

But clearly, the nexus in time and place hands off from the three young men at Carlos and Charlie`s to these two individuals, who were apparently at the end of their shift or something like that, and they`re then seen in the vicinity of the...

GRACE: Yes.

LOMBARDI: They may have said something, despite how uncooperative they were, to authorities in the initial retention period, which is justified holding on to them and looking more closely at them.

But it`s just a very difficult thing. I think this family and we all can take some encouragement from the fact that the FBI is very much involved. And my understanding of our relationship with Aruba is that we have a very good, tight relationship with them.

GRACE: And Elizabeth, can you show us the map that we made of Aruba for the viewers? It`s only 19.6 miles in length, 6 miles across. There you see Carlos and Charlie`s right at the tip of the island, the Holiday Inn.

And like many of these little dive islands, diving islands, all the big hotels are right along the beach, right on the beach in one big, long row, to make it convenient for people that want to just walk in and start diving.

You know, Debra Opri, Dino brings up a very good point. These two security guards that were in that vicinity may very well, for all we know, have just been walking the grounds. But what raises up the hair on the back of my neck is that they`re being uncooperative. Why?

DEBRA OPRI, JACKSON FAMILY LAWYER: Well, something to hide. If I were the police investigators, I would initially start with, what leads can they give us? And they obviously have given a significant amount of leads, Nancy, because they`re now looking with divers in the water.

We have one thing that`s inherent here. We have to find evidence. And if a body is evidence, or if a girl in transport to Colombia for the drug trade prostitution is evidence, we`ve got to find something, because at this point in time, the greatest fear is leading to a dead-end.

GRACE: Everybody, we are live in Aruba with all of the latest regarding the mysterious disappearance of an 18-year-old Alabama girl. The FBI has landed on the tiny island of Aruba trying to find Natalee Holloway. Stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BETH TWITTY: Our primary goal is to bring Natalee back home. We will do whatever it takes. As I`ve said from the beginning, I`m not leaving Aruba without her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GERALD DOMPIG, ARUBA POLICE CHIEF: You could say three theories. One is, as you all know, these persons of interest might have done something wrong to Natalee. That`s one area. The other area is that this person is just missing, in terms of somewhere else, for whatever reason. And the last theory is, of course, a kidnapping. But as law enforcement, you cannot exclude anything.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. We are live in Aruba with the latest on a missing Alabama girl, just 18-years-old. She went along with about 150 -- wasn`t it 150, Ellie? About 100 of her students -- her fellow students that went away for graduation. About 40 chaperones and parents went along with them. That`s quite a bit of chaperones.

Long story short, she disappeared the night before they were to leave to come back. In her hotel room in the Holiday Inn, they found the girl`s bags neatly packed. They found her pocketbook, her passport, everything. One thing was missing that they know of, only her driver`s license. And let`s talk about that for a moment.

Karl Penhaul, a CNN correspondent, is in Aruba. Karl, has her driver`s license been found?

PENHAUL: No, according to prosecutors and police investigators, none of Natalee`s possessions or any of her clothing has been found. The two suspects arrested yesterday, their homes were thoroughly searched by police. And police did take away bags of possessions and also confiscated three cars.

But they`ve been very specific. Nothing of Natalee`s has been found. The reason why she may have taken her driving license out with her is for some form of official I.D. Here, unlike the States, 18-years-old, like under European law, is the legal age for drinking and such like, and in many of the bars here, you have to provide some form of I.D. so that you`re allowed to enter and allowed to consume beer or any other alcohol. So that`s quite likely the reason why Natalee took along her driving license.

GRACE: So it sounds to me, Karl, like she packed to leave before she went to Carlos and Charlie`s for dinner or whatever, had everything ready, so when she came back, it would be ready for her in the morning, taking only her driver`s license and probably some cash to go to the bar. Has her credit card been used whatsoever since this time?

PENHAUL: Those kind of details haven`t been provided by investigators, but so far there`s nothing that would indicate that.

GRACE: You know what`s interesting, Karl, is, in this country under our justice system, you simply can`t be arrested and then you say, for what? And they say, "Well, we`ll tell you tomorrow." No, you have to have a formal cause of arrest here. But there in Aruba, not so. Isn`t it true that a suspect can be held for at least two days without finding out why they`re arrested?

PENHAUL: Yes and no. Dutch law is very different from U.S. law. It`s similar to law in other parts of Europe, as well. And obviously, Aruba is a Dutch dependency.

From what we talked to the prosecutors for, essentially, in this case, these two men, being suspects and being formally arrested, they are, in fact, charged but rather than level specific charges at them, they`re presented with a kind of a menu of charges, if you like. And then as the investigation gets narrowed down, then items on that menu of charges will be either included or excluded.

But there are very strict habeas corpus laws, in terms of that they have to be presented to prosecutors or judges within a certain amount of time. One of those deadlines, the 48-hour deadline, comes up tomorrow. At that point, prosecutors and judges will have to decide whether to keep these men in custody or whether to release them.

GRACE: OK, Karl, let me get this straight. Yes, no, are they in custody?

PENHAUL: They are in custody. They are arrested.

GRACE: OK. Yes, no, do we know what the charges are?

PENHAUL: Crimes relating to the disappearance of Natalee Holloway.

GRACE: Do we know what the crime is?

PENHAUL: Not the specific charges of the crime.

GRACE: OK, interesting. Now, what time were they taken into custody?

PENHAUL: About 7:00 a.m. yesterday. And we`re on the same time here in Aruba as Eastern time USA.

GRACE: 7:00 a.m. yesterday, so by 7:00 a.m. tomorrow, Tuesday, they`ve got to either be formally charged or cut loose?

PENHAUL: They are formally charged. But it`s actually 1:00 p.m. Because, first of all, they were arrested at 7:00 a.m. There was a six- hour detention period there. At the end of that six-hour detention period, another 48-hour detention period begins. So 1:00 p.m. tomorrow.

GRACE: OK.

Back out to Carla Caccavale. She is the family spokesperson for Natalee Holloway`s family. How is the family holding up tonight?

CACCAVALE: They`re really strong. Today, like I said, was a good day for them. They were out, and they were positive. They were briefed by the police this morning. Unfortunately, no additional information is available at this time.

And like I said, they found a lot of support in last night`s prayer vigil that was held on island and also a great deal of support today from the search operation conducted by the government employees across the island. About 500 to 600 people showed up, they said.

GRACE: Karl Penhaul, CNN correspondent in Aruba, a lot of interest was stirred today because a mattress was discovered with blood on it. It has since turned out not to even be human blood, correct?

PENHAUL: That`s correct. That mattress was discovered yesterday on the eastern tip of the island. FBI agents were called in to help with some more sophisticated tests on the mattress. Very quickly, that blood sample was ruled out. It was actually the blood of a dog.

GRACE: Everyone, we are going to break. We are live in Aruba tonight with all of the latest on a missing 18-year-old Alabama girl on her high school graduation trip. An honor student, Natalee Holloway, was last seen leaving a restaurant there in Aruba and has seemingly vanished off this tiny island.

As we go to break, to "Trial Tracking." Brandi Stahr, Texas A&M student, disappeared into thin air seven years ago, found. Apparently she ran away after a fight with her mother over bad grades. She`s been working at a Sam`s Club in Kentucky ever since.

The kicker, Brandi was working under her real name, with her own Social Security number. But for seven years, cops said they couldn`t find her. They gave the excuse they couldn`t access her IRS records.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Michael Jackson, starring on a stage before his most recent starring role in a courtroom. Welcome back, everybody.

It is day 67 in the Michael Jackson child sex trial. And we are in a verdict watch. Thank you for being with us.

Let`s go straight out to Santa Maria, California. Trial attorney Anne Bremner there.

But first, to "Celebrity Justice" correspondent Jane Velez-Mitchell. Bring me up-to-date, Jane.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": Nancy, another really, really bizarre day in the Michael Jackson trial. As jurors were inside the courthouse doing their first full day of deliberations, outside the courthouse, chaos, absolute chaos, erupted when Joe Jackson, Michael Jackson`s father, was suddenly spotted walking down the street toward the courthouse.

Mobbed by fans, mobbed by the media -- you must realize at this point there are more than 2,000 credentialed members of the media from all over the world. He literally had to fight, and push, and shove his way to get to the main gate.

And at that point, he implored a sheriff`s deputy, "Where is my son? I need to be where my son is." The sheriff`s deputy informed him that the son was not at the courthouse, that he didn`t know where Michael Jackson was.

More chaos. Where is Michael Jackson? It turns out it may have been just a big case of mixed signals. We saw the video. Michael Jackson`s caravan was leaving Neverland just as his dad`s car was pulling up. Joe did a U-turn, tried to follow the caravan and race to the courthouse, mistakenly thinking it was a verdict.

Well, it turns out those SUVs were going, according to published reports, to the car wash to get washed. And this dad in a panic raced to be with his son. All a false alarm, but certainly an indication of the stress that the Jackson family is under right now.

GRACE: We`re live in Santa Maria, California. Standing by, Anne Bremner and Jane Velez-Mitchell. We`ll all be right back. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK

GRACE: Las Vegas, the place is up for grabs tonight, odds 2-to-1 Jackson will be convicted in one to five counts. Simpson (ph)

Welcome back, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us tonight.

Let`s go straight back out to Jane Velez-Mitchell. Jane, was Jackson in the hospital once or twice over the weekend? Clear that up for us, please.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, he was in the hospital toward the end of last week, and then he was in the hospital yesterday. And I have to tell you, speaking of bedlam, I was outside the hospital yesterday as he left, and another case of chaos. As the caravan of SUVs left, reporters apparently got too close or didn`t move out of the way fast enough. One found his videocamera confiscated and had to invoke the shield law to get it back. There was a scuffle that broke out between some still photographers and somebody who was purportedly a security guard. A camera smashed to the ground. I watched all of this.

Really, chaos wherever you turn here. The tension level is enormous. People in this area, in general, are kind of getting tired of the media circus, and tempers are flaring.

GRACE: Jane, it seems to me wherever there`s chaos, you happen to be right in the middle of it.

(LAUGHTER)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Is it me? I hope not! I`m just going where I`m assigned. I think the other person who was in the middle of it could possibly be Michael Jackson, or at least the issue is Michael Jackson. I mean, there`s a lot of drama around Michael Jackson. There always has been. In the case of his theatrical performances, it`s good drama. But then, of course, there`s something psychiatrists call negative excitement, and that is something that seems to surround him, as well.

GRACE: Debra Opri, Jackson family attorney, why was Jackson in the hospital this weekend?

DEBRA OPRI, ATTORNEY FOR JACKSON`S PARENTS: I spoke to Tom Mesereau earlier today, and Tom Mesereau and the Jackson family have asked all the friends and family members who are speaking to the press about Michael Jackson`s medical condition, his spiritual status, to just back off a little bit.

Michael Jackson is fine. Media reports that he had a back exacerbation are correct, but he did fine last night. He`s doing fine today. There is no medical issue.

The issues that remain right now is that Thomas Mesereau is asking all friends and family who are doing interviews to please stop and let the jury deliberation process go forth without interference in the media.

As well, Jackson family members are asking the court again to please allot enough seats so that all of Michael Jackson`s siblings and family members will be there for the verdict in the courtroom, rather than the hallway.

GRACE: Anne Bremner, what`s the deal with Jackson going back in the hospital at the end of last week -- I`m taking that to be Friday -- then over the weekend? This is another chapter in a long-standing history of getting sick whenever the heat turns on. What was it this time? Back ailment, dehydration? What?

ANNE BREMNER, TRIAL ATTORNEY: Exactly. Electrolytes. You know, you say what a coincidence, a coincidence in terms of the timing because, of course, we had pajama day in the midst of the accuser`s testimony, and then now we`ve got jury deliberations. And don`t forget, Nancy, that the first time he went to the hospital in this case and disrupted court, it was during jury selection. And now we have that machine outside of his house at Neverland. We kind of call it the "way back machine." Remember Sherman (ph) and Peabody (ph)? But it`s really for your blood, to stop your heart or do something to ease the heart.

Now, people get sick, you know, and they have issues, but the timing of these, I think some people have felt, has been suspect in terms of his hospitalizations in connection with this trial.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RANDY TAMBORELLI, MICHAEL JACKSON BIOGRAPHER: There have been instances when he`s had to perform on stage and he was upset about one thing or another, and he would have a panic attack and actually has been hospitalized. I can tell you from my own sources in the Jackson camp that he is very sick right now and has been for quite some time. It is the back. It`s not an exaggeration.

Vitiligo is a true condition. It`s not a made-up Michael Jackson fantasy. He was diagnosed back in the 1980s. He does have it, and you know, it is an issue in his life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Dr. Robi Ludwig, what do you make of the latest trip to the hospital? The jury doesn`t know about it.

ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Yes.

GRACE: It`s not going to affect deliberations.

LUDWIG: I think he really is struggling. His whole life is on the line. His career is on the line. His reputation is on the line. Michael Jackson likes attention, but you know, he`s under a lot of duress. He certainly doesn`t want to go to jail. And you can have a medical condition and it be psychologically exacerbated.

GRACE: To Dino Lombardi, defense attorney. Robi Ludwig is right, his career, his life on line. He could do hard jail time if he`s convicted on any of these felony counts. But Dino, the reality is, back in `93, Cochran, Johnnie Cochran, my old sparring buddy, got him out of an indictment. He did not have to face a jury trial.

DINO LOMBARDI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right.

GRACE: That should have been warning right there: Stop sleeping with little boys, right there, and he would not be in this predicament.

LOMBARDI: Should very much have been a wake-up call to him. But I would also say, too, that he should really be sensitive to the fact that while his life is on the line here, that the jury, family members of the jury, will see these coinkydinks (ph), as Anne said correctly, I think, as efforts to play to them and to seek their sympathy, and it could very badly backfire on him. So I don`t know where these ideas spring from, Michael or his supporters or his handlers, but I think it`s bad news for him to try and make these ploys and plays.

GRACE: Well, luckily, Dino, the jury doesn`t know what we know. They don`t know that he was back in the hospital twice within a couple of days again.

LOMBARDI: We`re making an assumption there, Nancy.

GRACE: Yes. You know what? You`re right.

LOMBARDI: Yes.

GRACE: Some of them may have read the news or seen the TV.

LOMBARDI: Of course.

GRACE: Let`s see. Let me count it up. Anne Bremner, there -- let me go to Jane Velez-Mitchell on this. Anne told us there was a time during jury selection he went in the hospital. We know the day that the boy accuser was to take the stand, he went to the hospital. Then at the end of last week and then over the weekend. That`s four, right? Am I missing one?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s about four, yes. To our estimation, it`s four times. And what`s interesting is there has never been a missed day of trial due to any kind of juror illness or lateness. This jury has a perfect record of showing up every single day on time and doing their duty. So it`s a stark contrast.

And I agree with your other guest who said that if word gets out, that this could backfire, because this is a small farming community and people talk over the picket fence. Hey, you know, neighbor, did you hear he`s back in the hospital, and that kind of thing. It might be impossible for them not to overhear this, and there may be resentment that builds up as they`re working so hard to go through this very, very complex case.

And I can show you right here, this is the jury instruction booklet. Take a look at that. That`s the size of a movie script, 98 pages. They`ve got more than 130 witnesses` testimony to go through, 700 exhibits. I mean, this jury has a lot of work to do. And if they get wind of this, it could really backfire.

GRACE: Take a listen to this, Jane.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP - "60 MINUTES")

MICHAEL JACKSON: If you`re going to be a pedophile, if you`re going to be Jack the Ripper, if you`re going to be a murderer, it`s not a good idea. That, I`m not. I didn`t sleep in the bed with the child. Even if I did, it`s OK. I slept on the floor.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That is from Jackson`s first public response to these current child molestation charges. There were other moments during the Bashir documentary where he basically bragged that he slept with children and that that was a sign of giving love. Dino Lombardi hit the nail on the head, Dr. Robi Ludwig, that he should have stopped...

LUDWIG: Yes.

GRACE: ... be it innocent or not innocent, sleeping with boys after Cochran got him out of the `93 felony charges. Why can`t he stop?

LUDWIG: And you and I know that he`s been advised to stop. He has --

GRACE: Yes, Maureen Orth told us that...

LUDWIG: That`s right.

GRACE: ... the other night, the "Vanity Fair" writer.

LUDWIG: And he rejected that. And it`s because he has an obsessive- compulsive disorder. He has a compulsion where he can`t not stop. And then in his own mind, much like alcoholism, he creates a reason for why he does what he does. So even if he were to promise to somebody that he would stop and change his ways, I don`t know if he`s truly capable of doing it because the underlying problem hasn`t been addressed yet.

GRACE: We are live in Santa Maria with the latest in the Michael Jackson trial. We`ll go straight back out when we get back.

But first, to tonight`s "All Points Bulletin." FBI and law enforcement across the country on the lookout for this man, William Barney, wanted in connection with sex acts on a 12-year-old boy in Vegas. Barney, 55, 5-9, 200 pounds -- take a look -- brown hair, blue eyes, scars on leg, forehead and chest. If you have information, call the FBI, 782-385-1281.

Local news is coming up for some of you, but we`ll all be right back. And remember, live coverage of the Jackson verdict watch tomorrow, 3: 00 to 5:00 Eastern on Court TV`s "Closing Arguments."

Please stay with us as we remember Captain Jeremy Fresques, 26 years old, an American hero.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAYMONE BAIN, MICHAEL JACKSON SPOKESPERSON: He is innocent of these false charges. He has a great confidence in the justice system, and he is hoping and believing that the jury is going to acquit him of these charges.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. We are live in Santa Maria in the case against Michael Jackson. We are waiting for the jury to hand down a verdict against the so-called "king of pop." Believe it or not, there are many people in this country and across the world that believe Michael Jackson is a deity. That`s right, a cross between a man and a god. You heard it right.

Straight out to Jane Velez-Mitchell. Jane, let`s talk about these jurors for just a moment. Everybody`s taking a look at what the jury is going to do. Let`s take a look at them for a moment. Elizabeth (ph), give me that screen, please, dear, of the jurors.

Juror one, male, age 62, civil engineer, three kids. Two, male, age 63, retired, post-grad degree, two sons. Three, female, 50, no kids. Four, female, 51, high school teacher, two kids. Five, female, age 79. She`s been seen shaking her head often, No, throughout the trial, widow, grandson registered sex offender. Juror six, 22-year-old woman, physical therapy aide. Juror seven, 42-year-old female, Air Force veteran, sister raped, two nieces molested. Number eight has caused quite a stir. We`ll get Jane Velez-Mitchell to tell us about that -- 39-year-old female. Nine, 45-year-old female. Works for the local supermarket, husband arrested for drunk driving. Ten, 20-year-old male, cashier, relative works for Jackson`s doctor. He has visited Neverland. Eleven, 21-year-old male, has cerebral palsy, visited Neverland age 6. And twelve, 44-year-old female, works at Department of Social Services, ex-husband police officer, one son. She knows all about Welfare cheats.

To Jane Velez-Mitchell, what can you tell me about this juror number eight? Is she the one that`s been winking at Katherine Jackson, Michael Jackson`s mom?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, there have been so many stories that have spread about various members of the jury. I haven`t heard that one. We`ve heard, of course, about one member of the jury -- one juror whose sister actually worked with somebody who testified in the case, a young man who said he was molested by Michael Jackson. There`s been word that one juror might have a book deal. We asked today to get comments from the court. By the way, it`s kind of windy and gusty out here, a farming community. We did not get any comment from the court on the possible book deal being reported.

And as for a wink -- there`s been a lot of interpretation of these jurors. What are they thinking? What are they doing? Every time one of them blows their nose, somebody reports that they`re crying. It`s really hard to read them. I can tell you that they`re relatively well educated. Most of them had some college. Three are seniors. Three are in their 20s. The rest are somewhere in the middle. We have a math teacher, a horse trainer.

It`s a diverse group -- three Latinos, an Asian, no African-Americans. But other than the fact that there are no African-Americans, in other ways, it is a very diverse group. One of the jurors is in a wheelchair. It`s a very interesting group of people.

GRACE: To Anne Bremner, what is this about a juror with a book deal already in place?

BREMNER: (INAUDIBLE) the 79-year-old grandmother, the one that some have -- including myself, have seen wink a couple of times at Katherine Jackson. She carries her own pillow and her blanket into the jury box when she comes in. And she`s very attentive, and sometimes she shakes her head and did a little tongue clucking when she heard Michael Jackson say in the outtakes that he was a messiah or a deity or a Gandhi replacement. She wasn`t buying that.

But she`s reportedly -- according to "The LA Times" and other reports, has a book deal or is going to have one. Her granddaughter has reported this. But she hasn`t indicated what she`s going to say. She hasn`t signed a contract. And there`s no indication from her that she`s leaning one way or the other in the case, and she made this decision before the trial actually commenced.

GRACE: Well, to Debra Opri, the Jackson family lawyer -- Debra, until one side or the other objects to a juror having a book deal, we can all deride it as much as we want to, but unless they object to it and put it on the record, it`s for naught.

OPRI: You`re absolutely correct. Of course, if the verdict doesn`t come down the way Tom Mesereau and the defense anticipate it would be, I`m sure this would be a great issue and ripe for appeal. As to the other deliberations, you know, look at the jurors. They had two hours on Friday to pick a foreman. They then had a full day today. And the attorneys were waiting patiently in that hallway. So the jurors, I think, are doing an outstanding job. They know their duties. And I don`t think any issue or rumor of a book deal will interfere with these deliberations.

GRACE: But Dino Lombardi, that`s not how objections work. You have to make the objection contemporaneously. When you find out a juror already has a book deal in place, you either object them or you waive it on appeal. You can`t wait and decide if you like the verdict and then make an objection, Dino.

LOMBARDI: Yes. In fact, I just had that in a major case here in New York. You have to object at the time you find out about it, especially when you`re talking about jury selection, because then that juror is seated and you can`t undo that. So if the defense knew about it, they had to record that objection somewhere.

GRACE: And also, Dino, the really is, they could object now because they`re just learning -- if they`re just learning about the book deal now. Maybe they don`t like the next alternate.

LOMBARDI: Right.

GRACE: Maybe each side thinks she`s on their side and they don`t want to (INAUDIBLE) about the book deal.

LOMBARDI: Exactly. So they`re only going to object if and when they learn about it and if they think that the guy or gal who replaces that juror is better or worse for them.

GRACE: Yes. OK, while I`ve got her, Jane Velez-Mitchell, go ahead. Go out on a limb. How long will jury deliberations go? What`s the verdict? You can change your mind tomorrow night, but as of tonight, what are you thinking?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, good. OK. Now that you`ve told me that -- well, again, this is sheer speculation. Who knows? but I would think by the end of the week -- I know when Friday rolls around here, everybody just is exhausted. So I would say by Friday, they`re going to be looking at each other, going, We want to get closure before the weekend.

GRACE: We are taking a quick break. And as we go to break -- you know, I tried felony cases, prosecuted them for many, many years in inner- city Atlanta and now have been analyzing them. And I realized I`ve got an objection to the way Lady Justice is being treated! Proceeds from the book going to National Center Missing Exploited Children.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: We at NANCY GRACE want very much to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Tonight, take a look at Shania Supanich, just 8 years old. Shania last seen in Auburn, Washington, April 2, 2004. Police say she may be in the company of a non-custodial father, Mark (ph) Supanich. There`s a police warrant for his arrest. If you have any information on Shania Supanich, please contact the Auburn Police Department, 253-931-3080, or go to BeyondMissing.com. Please help us.

Welcome back, everybody. Let`s quickly go a round robin. First of all, to you, Debra Opri. Time of deliberations, verdict.

OPRI: By Wednesday afternoon, it`ll be 20 hours. I think that`ll be enough for an acquittal, if they take out conspiracy early on and answer the question with the reasonable doubt laws that they don`t believe that Michael Jackson molested the child.

GRACE: Anne Bremner.

BREMNER: Tuesday, Wednesday at the latest, guilty molestation and alcohol.

GRACE: Dino Lombardi?

LOMBARDI: I`d say later. Thursday, Friday, guilty of molestation and alcohol.

GRACE: Robi?

LUDWIG: I say Friday, not guilty on all counts.

GRACE: Not guilty on all counts?

LUDWIG: Guilty on some, not all.

GRACE: You know what? Make up your mind, all right?

LUDWIG: Some, not all.

GRACE: OK. Lawyers on the panel, no Robi Ludwig on the jury, OK? She`s cracking right here on the set! OK, and finally to Jane Velez- Mitchell. Any change in the routine tomorrow? What time do they start deliberating?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: At 8:30 A.M. And they don`t drive in themselves anymore, they meet at a predetermined location and then they come in a van, and then they leave at 2:30.

GRACE: Man, how I`d like to be a fly on the wall in that van!

OK, thanks to everybody. I want to thank all of my guests tonight, but my biggest thank you, as always, is to you for being with all of us, inviting all of us into your home tonight. Coming up, headlines from all around the world, Larry on CNN. I`m Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. I hope to see you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 o`clock sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END