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Nancy Grace

Nancy Grace for Tuesday, June 7, 2005, CNNHN

Aired June 07, 2005 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, the search turns desperate for an 18- year-old American girl who took her senior trip with classmates to Aruba and vanished into thin air. Tonight, police and FBI agents descend on the tiny island of Aruba desperately searching for the 18-year-old Alabama girl, Natalee Holloway.
Update, the two hotel security guards suspected in her disappearance lost their jobs just one day before Natalee went missing.

And tonight, a horrific case of murder. A man`s body, cut into pieces, washed ashore in three separate pieces of his own designer suitcases.

And day three of deliberations for a California jury. We are in a verdict watch in the Michael Jackson child molestation trial.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. And I want to thank you for being with us tonight.

The Michael Jackson jury deliberates a second full day. If convicted of child molestation, Jackson faces years behind bars.

And a murder mystery ensued after a gruesome discovery. A man`s body washes ashore in three -- that`s right, one body -- three of his own designer suitcases.

And Aruba is under siege as FBI, police and even their own citizens bear down on the search for 18-year-old Natalee Holloway. And tonight, two suspects still in police custody.

Tonight, in Aruba, defense attorney for one of the two arrested men, Chris LeJuez; in Santa Barbara, defense attorney Debra Opri; in New York, defense attorney Jason Oshins, psychologist Dr. Jeff Gardere.

But first, let`s go to Aruba, and CNN correspondent Karl Penhaul. Welcome back, friend. Karl, bring me up-to-date.

KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Another day of intense searching, Nancy. There have been search-and-rescue teams out there. We understand the FBI divers have been in the water, too, for the first time.

And also U.S. tourists are continuing to join this search, Nancy. They`ve been joining rescue teams looking along the north coast of the island, putting some of the -- sacrificing the Pina Coladas and white, sandy beaches for rocky, thorny scrub hunting. But so far, no further clues, Nancy.

GRACE: Karl Penhaul, what can you tell us about these two men that are still in custody? Are there formal charges yet?

PENHAUL: It would be best to describe these as formal accusations, Nancy. As you know, the Dutch system of legal system here is very different from the U.S. system.

But we can describe these as formal accusations. And the formal accusations, we understand, that are being leveled at these men are murder, homicide, and kidnap leading to death.

GRACE: Karl, if they don`t have a body of this girl, how are they coming up with a murder accusation? Why have they charged them with murder?

PENHAUL: That is the big question. That`s the big question the legal experts are answering. And when, today at an afternoon news conference, the public prosecutors said that they would remand those two suspects in custody for a further eight days, they declined to reveal publicly any of the evidence that they may have gathered against them. So we can`t answer that right now. And the legal experts, we don`t think, were in a position to answer that right now, either.

GRACE: With us also tonight, the defense attorney for one of these two men in custody, arrested in the connection with the disappearance of Natalee Holloway, everyone, as you recall, the 18-year-old Alabama girl who went missing on her senior trip in Aruba.

Chris LeJuez, thank you for being with us. What is the evidence by which they`re holding your guy in custody?

CHRIS LEJUEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I have not seen the evidence as yet. All that I know is that they`re -- apparently there have been people who have described them as possible suspects, but I don`t know anything of a body. I don`t know anything of anyone being dead in this case. So it`s a very strange thing that they have been accused as of now of these charges.

GRACE: What are the official charges against these two men, Chris?

LEJUEZ: Well, I wouldn`t call them formal charges. We will call them accusations for the time being, until the trial is at hand. The charges -- the formal accusations would be murder, that would be a premeditated homicide, premeditated murder, accomplice or accessory to murder, and then also homicide, which would be the same thing without the premeditation, and also being accessory to homicide and the next one would be kidnapping with a fatal consequence.

GRACE: Mr. LeJuez, with were told last night that your client is being uncooperative with police. Why won`t he give a full statement?

LEJUEZ: I don`t know where you got that information from. I don`t know from both these people, because I spoken with both of the persons who are detained right now, they both have stated to me very clearly that they gave a very ample statement to the police. I have seen them at the police station where they were giving their statements. So I have no reason to believe that they did not cooperate with the police.

GRACE: Mr. LeJuez, did either of the two men, to your knowledge, come in contact with Natalee Holloway the night she went missing?

LEJUEZ: I didn`t really quite catch your question. Would you please repeat the question?

GRACE: Sure. Did your client come in contact with the girl the night she went missing?

LEJUEZ: Well, I can assure you that both the people who are in detention right now here in Aruba for this case have denied ever having any contact with Natalee Holloway. They both say they know her only from the press.

GRACE: Mr. LeJuez, were they -- was your client still working at the Allegra Hotel the night Natalee went missing as a security guard?

LEJUEZ: They are not working for this hotel. They are working for a security company. They were dismissed a few days after that, dismissed in the sense that they are not working at the hotel right now. They were going probably to be placed at some other place for this security company.

GRACE: I understand. So you`re telling me, Mr. LeJuez, they did not work for the hotel, they worked for a separate security company? Did that security company provide security to the Allegra Hotel?

LEJUEZ: That`s correct.

GRACE: Did they work at the Allegra Hotel?

LEJUEZ: They were working at the Allegra Hotel for some time now.

GRACE: And Mr. LeJuez, how far away is the Allegra Hotel from the Holiday Inn where Natalee was staying?

LEJUEZ: Approximately two hotels further down, down the beach.

GRACE: Let`s go back to CNN correspondent Karl Penhaul. Karl, do you have any idea what the forensic evidence is, what the evidence is at all, that leads officials to keep these two guys in custody?

PENHAUL: We don`t, at this stage, Nancy. Although, talking again to senior police officials, they have also described to me that there`s tremendous political pressure in this case.

You must remember that Aruba is highly dependent on tourism. This kind of case is really out of character for the island, which traditionally has had a very low crime rate, and none of that crime has traditionally affected the foreign tourists here.

And so there is tremendous political pressure to resolve this case, and even the police are saying that they are feeling that pressure. And so, also, for that reason, prosecutors are playing cards very close to their chest. They haven`t presented any of the forensic evidence.

Yes, earlier in the week, we heard of this mattress stained with blood. That was ruled out, turned out to be dog`s blood. We also heard earlier today about a security company t-shirt stained with blood. But again, that seems to be ruled out, or at least police don`t seem to be making too much of that discovery. And certainly that security company t- shirt wasn`t anything to do with the security company that the two suspects were working for, Nancy.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAUL REYNOLDS, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S UNCLE: We`re doing well. It`s an overwhelming outpouring of support and concern from the island, everyone in the States, the authorities. It`s an amazing series of events, and we`re just touched as to how Natalee has reached people`s lives.

GEORGE "JUG" TWITTY, STEPFATHER OF MISSING GIRL: I hope, I pray to God that she walks through that door or that we find her somewhere. I don`t care if she`s, you know, in a crack house somewhere and she`s been drugged up for, you know, seven days or whatever. We can work with that. We can fix her. We can do whatever to get her back.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Just to hear him say, "We can fix her," back to Chris LeJuez. Sir, are you the defense attorney for one of the suspects or both of them?

LEJUEZ: I have been the defense attorney for both of them for the last two days. But as of tomorrow, I will be only for one of them, because apparently there will be a conflict of interest in defending them both. This has been told to me by the public prosecutor, so I will be resigning from one of the cases. I have no evidence yet that, that is the case, but I do take her word for it.

GRACE: Very quickly, let`s go to Jason Oshins, defense attorney. Jason, you know what that means, that writing is on the wall. If there is a conflict of interest, that means one is turning on the other. That means somebody clearly knows something.

JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, at least one would hope that, from the prosecutor`s perspective. I mean, clearly the fact that there is so much political pressure on this tiny little island, the prosecutor has got to tread very, very carefully and needs to look out for things in advance of what could be a problem. So, yes...

GRACE: Jason...

OSHINS: Yes, Nancy?

GRACE: ... I asked you what it means when there is a conflict of interest between two defendants. It means one is going rat on the other or else Mr. LeJuez could represent both.

OSHINS: Well, no, either way -- yes, you`re right, with respect to that, if that`s what the end result, that one is going to flip on the other, or at the very least, the prosecutor wants to lean on one of the defendants, not knowing which one they`re going to lean on. So that possibly, if there is that flipping, as you say, that information could come out without having already been a conflict that would taint any of the evidence.

GRACE: Very quickly, back to defense attorney Chris LeJuez. He is representing tonight both of the men in custody in Aruba. Sir, do your clients know these three guys that escorted Natalee Holloway away from the Carlos and Charlie`s bar that evening?

LEJUEZ: Both of these persons have told me -- these clients have told me that they don`t know the three people who have brought them to the hotel that evening.

GRACE: Everyone, we are live in Aruba with the latest regarding the disappearance of 18-year-old Natalee Holloway. Please stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Our family isn`t really focusing on the fact that there are dive teams. They`re just focusing on the fact that it`s more help, and the more help the better. And if they don`t turn anything up in the water, that`s great news, because they believe that Natalee is still here on island, alive, somewhere on island.

And that is the family`s belief right now. They are not considering any other option. And they are remaining very, very strong. And they have a great support system here on island from family, from friends, from the local community, and, of course, the U.S. government sending in help is a huge, huge, you know, relief for them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BETH TWITTY, MOTHER OF MISSING GIRL: Our primary goal is to bring Natalee back home. We will do whatever it takes. As I`ve said from the beginning, I`m not leaving Aruba without her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That`s Natalee Holloway`s mother speaking out. She is in Aruba with many other family members tonight, along with Aruban citizens and tourists helping the FBI and police scour the island for 18-year-old Natalee Holloway. She went on her senior trip to Aruba, well-chaperoned, and vanished into thin air. In fact, yesterday, the government gave government employees half a day off to help find Natalee Holloway.

Let`s go straight back out to Chris LeJuez. He is the defense attorney for both suspects that are in custody tonight. Mr. LeJuez, I understand that you`re telling us tonight you represent both of them. Tomorrow, you`re going represent one of them. Which one are you going to represent?

LEJUEZ: Well, one of the Js. They`re both called J, with their initial. And I will be representing J-1.

GRACE: OK, so are their names not public?

LEJUEZ: They might be, but I don`t public names. You might try to get them from the prosecutor`s office.

GRACE: No, that`s fine. Sir, you`re choosing to represent J-1 or are you assigned J-1?

LEJUEZ: I chose to represent one of the two.

GRACE: Why did you choose him over the other one?

LEJUEZ: It`s not really one over the other. But one of the two, not both of them.

GRACE: Do you believe that your client is less culpable than the other client?

LEJUEZ: I have no reason to believe so, because both of them have given extensive statements to the police that they are not implicated in this case whatsoever. And I have no -- you`ve mentioned just now they would be ratting, one would be ratting on the other. I have no reason to believe that is the case. I do have reason to believe that their stories don`t match exactly.

GRACE: Well-put.

To Karl Penhaul, CNN correspondent there in Aruba. Karl, when will these two men be having their first court appearance?

Karl, are you with me? OK, for some reason our satellite is down on Karl Penhaul.

Elizabeth, let me know when we get Karl back.

To Chris LeJuez, sir, when will your client and the co-suspect have their first court appearance?

Darn. Both gone. We`ll let you know when we get them back.

To Jason Oshins, let`s talk another moment about why LeJuez has chosen one client over the other. You`ve been in that predicament before as a defense attorney. Explain.

OSHINS: Well, clearly, as you`re looking at a case there, as he indicated, there could be conflicts between the two. He said there is some inconsistencies in the story. You don`t want to jeopardize one client`s ability to have a not-guilty verdict if that`s the direction it is going to go. You need to be certain about not impeding one or the other`s ability to have a clear defense.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LIZ SANDNER, MISSING GIRL`S BIBLE STUDY LEADER: This is someone who, if she wasn`t going to be at bible study, would call before, say she couldn`t, make an appointment at a different time, sometimes 7:00 a.m. Friday morning, to come recite, you know, her scripture memory for the week.

We just want everybody to keep praying for Natalee because we know she`s going to come home. She`s a strong girl, and she`ll get through this. And she knows that we`re all praying for her. And we`re here for her, waiting for her to come back.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Debra Opri, what`s your take on these breaking developments regarding a conflict?

DEBRA OPRI, JACKSON FAMILY LAWYER: I`m looking at the big picture, Nancy. Obviously, there is guilt. There is a lot of culpability. This individual attorney out there, he`s representing one, the other one. They will turn against each other.

And listen, I`m like the rest of the citizenry listening to this case. Let`s get the girl alive. And if we can`t get her alive, let`s get the evidence to put these people away for a long time.

GRACE: To Dr. Jeff Gardere. Jeff, what`s your take on this?

DR. JEFF GARDERE, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, my take on this is, from what we`ve heard from the relatives of Natalee Holloway, this is a young woman who does things by the book, she does things the right way, she`s a good girl. So if something happened to her, it was probably something against her will.

She may are gone off voluntarily. We don`t know. But if she was taken, she was taken against her will because her pattern is not one to just drift off and...

GRACE: Gone off voluntarily? The girl was leaving the next morning. Here bags were packed. The room was neat.

GARDERE: Nancy, what I`m talking about is when she was at the nightclub, she met a few people. She might have talked with them. But from her profile, her history, she`s not one to just be carefree.

Therefore, if something happened to her, it probably happened to her against her will. And I fear there may have been some violence in this, looking at her psychological profile.

GRACE: Jeff, I`ve got to agree with you.

Quick break, everybody. We are headed to "Trial Tracking." Today, closing arguments in the trial of two pilots accused of getting a (UNINTELLIGIBLE) full and crash landing in the cockpit of a jet full of people. The defense? The pilots were not actually operating the jumbo jet. It hadn`t quite taken off.

Neither pilot took the stand. Both face five years behind bars if convicted.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BETSY RODRIGUEZ, ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY: These two defendants demonstrated on July 1, 2002, when they took the lives of 117 people under their wing, under their wings, they took those lives, representing that they would act responsibly.

But instead, ladies and gentlemen, they demonstrated careless and reckless behavior by getting into that cockpit under the influence of alcohol.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re sending out much love. We try, you know, to be positive.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please do the right thing. Set Michael free.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stay strong and keep fighting. This will all soon be over.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Keep your head up, and you`ve got to be strong. Jacksons are always strong.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: OK, no, this is not a circus. This is not a street festival. That is the courthouse at the Michael Jackson trial.

Let`s go straight out to the courthouse. Jury deliberations raging on. Let`s go to Santa Maria, California. Standing by, trial attorney out of the Seattle jurisdiction, Anne Bremner. In New York, entertainment columnist Diane Clehane.

But first, to "Celebrity Justice" correspondent, Jane Velez-Mitchell. Jane, I`m afraid to ask, but bring me up-to-date, friend.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": You should be afraid to ask, Nancy. It`s a crazy circus here in Santa Maria as the waiting game continues. And it is getting more and more nerve-wracking.

A whole lot going on. But we know very little about what`s going on inside the courthouse. They have deliberated these jurors for two full days. They`ve logged about 13 hours, but we don`t know very much about how they`re doing it or what they`re doing.

We know they asked one question yesterday. That was about a minor procedural matter. They reportedly asked no questions today. We do know the identity of the jury foreman that they have selected, a 63-year-old retired Latino male, a former counselor. He has a Masters degree. He has two grown children.

When he filled out his jury questionnaire, he said he had read very little about this case. He also said that he thought child witnesses were generally trustworthy, although they could twist the truth a little bit under pressure.

I have watched him since the start of this trial. And I`ve got to tell you, he`s very serious and he takes a lot of notes.

GRACE: I`m feeling sick. I hear there is an ambulance standing by at the time of the verdict. Explain, Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, as we`ve seen, Michael Jackson has gone ill at least four times during the course of this trial. He wobbles in and out of court. And I think, certainly, they want to have an ambulance standing by in case, if it`s bad news, he might faint, he might collapse. I think it`s a very, very real possibility that we could see him coming out on a stretcher.

GRACE: We have got 45 seconds, Diane Clehane. Since you`re the one groaning the loudest, you go first.

DIANE CLEHANE, ENTERTAINMENT REPORTER: I think everything that he has done throughout this entire trial has been a performance, from showing up in his pajamas, to sort of, you know, feeble-minded sort of going...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Do you want this?

CLEHANE: No, I think I`ll pass on that, thank you. But I think that we`re really seeing his performance at a peak. I mean, he is the ultimate performer. Everything he`s done has been a performance to date. And I`m sure, regardless of what the verdict is, something completely bizarre, even for him, is about to occur.

GRACE: Ambulance on the standby outside the courthouse getting ready for the Jackson verdict to come down.

Quick break, everybody. As we go to break, I want to remind you that we here at NANCY GRACE want very much to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Take a look at 47-year-old Kent Jacobs. Kent disappeared from Fayetteville, North Carolina, March 2002, just one week before his 43rd birthday.

If you have any information on this man, Kent Jacobs, please call the Carole Sund Carrington Foundation toll-free, 888-813-8389. Please, help us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAY LENO, "TONIGHT" SHOW: The next big question, will Michael Jackson be Robert Blake`s new golf partner or Scott Peterson`s new girlfriend? That`s what we`re waiting to find out. (INAUDIBLE) Waiting on that one.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That`s comedian Jay Leno on the "Tonight" show. He testified for the defense in the Jackson trial, but on cross-examination, he kind of turned into a prosecution witness.

Let`s take a look at other jury deliberations, how long they were out. Can you show me that, Elizabeth, please? O.J. Simpson jury was out for about three hours and 45 minutes before they came back with a whopper that stunned the country. Scott Peterson, seven hours and 14 minutes.

Martha Stewart, about 12 hours to come back with a guilty verdict. Robert Blake, 9 days for that debacle. Not guilty. Puff Daddy Combs, three days for a not guilty by Ben Bronfman, Johnnie Cochran. Jayson Williams, 23 hours to hang on the top count. Not guilty on the lesser counts. Williams looking at a retrial in the jurisdiction of New Jersey.

Very quickly, to Debra Opri. Debra, if Jackson is convicted, A, will he need the ambulance, and B, what will life be like for him behind bars? Can he survive?

DEBRA OPRI, ATTORNEY FOR JACKSON`S PARENTS: OK, first, we have to give him the benefit of the doubt. There has to be some sincerity in his suffering. That ambulance? That ambulance is not only there for Michael, it`s also there for Katherine and Joe, if people must know. There are serious concerns. And what`s going to happen to any of them? Well, you know, shock takes many forms, Nancy, and we`re into day three of the verdict tomorrow, the jury deliberations. And with all the hours of jury deliberations you gave in the other cases, I`m telling you, 20 to 25 hours should be what we need with Michael Jackson.

GRACE: Dr. Jeff Gardere, regarding the ambulance, regarding -- we were just out here, you and I and Diane, making a list of all the times Jackson has had a sick-out. You had the rehab stint in 1993. He was out of the country when he found out an indictment was looking at him. He went to rehab. Cochran got him out of that one.

Elizabeth, do you have that shot of Michael Jackson and his spider bite? This was over a contract dispute, when Jackson claimed he was ill over a spider bite. It affected only his foot. OK. Then we had the flu at the beginning of trial, during jury selection, the projectile vomiting during the case, the back pain, I think he had to go to the hospital. Yes, that was pajama day. Then Friday, it was dehydration day. Over the weekend, it was back pain again. Thoughts?

JEFFREY GARDERE, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, my thought on this is Debbie`s absolutely correct. Michael Jackson is a very sensitive individual, a person who does have some mental health issues, I believe. I believe when his -- when he gets in trouble like this, his emotional immune system starts to lower. So even though he may have some very minor physical problems, they become overly exacerbated by the psychological issues and the stress. The bottom line is, he`s standing trial for his life here, and I believe that he could faint. It could be a real problem, and so the ambulance should be there. And I don`t think it`s a joking matter.

GRACE: OK. Could you show that picture of the spider bite again, please, Elizabeth? Every time there is a crisis in a courtroom or a crisis in a case, we have a sick-out. Now, is it a joke? No. It`s not a joke. You know why? It costs the taxpayers a lot of money to put on a trial! It costs these jurors days out of work, days away from their family! It`s three alleged child molestation victims waiting on a verdict. You`re darn right it`s not a joke to sick-out during a felony jury trial, Dr. Gardere!

GARDERE: I`m not quite sure it is about a sick-out. Here we are Sunday. He went into the hospital for back pains. That`s not about a sick-out. This is about a person who had a legitimate back injury, from what we`ve seen in medical records, and again it has been exacerbated by this incredible stress that he is experiencing in this trial. This can happen to anyone who is being accused of child molestation, kidnapping and other charges.

GRACE: You know what? Out of all the child molestation cases I ever prosecuted, I never had a single person ask for a court delay over a spider bite. But you know what? You`re entitled to your opinion.

GARDERE: But you never had a Michael Jackson.

GRACE: No.

GARDERE: And Michael Jackson is a unique individual. That we must give him.

GRACE: Correct me if I`m wrong, but doesn`t Lady Justice wear a blindfold, so she does not know the difference between white or black, rich or poor, uneducated or educated? Did I miss something?

GARDERE: And those who have mental health issues and those who do not.

GRACE: Oh, you`re saying it`s mental health? OK.

Diane Clehane, if he is acquitted, what happens?

DIANE CLEHANE, ENTERTAINMENT COLUMNIST: I think it`s going to be really interesting to see what happens. I mean, he -- he`s finished if he`s convicted. If he`s acquitted, he`s all but finished. He has to really look at where he can go and perform and try to get some semblance of his career back. It`s very, very doubtful that he`ll ever really recapture any of his stardom.

GRACE: Diane, there are rumors floating right now that he is planning an American or a world tour, putting the band back together again with the Jackson Five.

CLEHANE: Right. I think that it`s very unlikely he`d do an American tour. A world tour is more likely because he`d want to get out of the country. And Jesse Jackson actually also said that he was interested in going to Africa because he was thinking about doing a theme park for kids. I mean, if I were his adviser, that`s the last thing he needs to do is go anywhere near anything that has to do with kids again.

GRACE: To Anne Bremner, trial lawyer standing by at the courthouse. Explain to me the procedure. What happens if ~he is found guilty? Where does he go? What happens?

ANNE BREMNER, TRIAL ATTORNEY: Well, in California, Nancy, he does not have to be taken immediately into custody, as in some other jurisdictions, like mine, in Seattle. On sexual assault felonies, one does not pass go or collect $200. They go directly to jail, no right to bail. He will be considered for bail. And the question is, you know, to what extent is he convicted on the prison counts or just probation-type counts?

So the judge has the discretion, as you know, Nancy, from trying so many cases, to decide at that point whether or not he would be remanded or have his bail revoked and he would go directly into custody. That is a possibility, especially with some of the issues in this case, where he`s come in in his pajamas or there`s been issues about, you know, his attendance, and of course, potential for flight, potential for danger to children. So that`s the scenario.

And it could be astonishing for him, that day, to be put in cuffs and taken out not in an ambulance, but in, basically, a paddy wagon. And so, of course, the ambulance, for him, would be preferable indeed. But that`s the scenario. Or he be could just released on bail and be back at Neverland...

GRACE: Back to Jane Velez-Mitchell.

BREMNER: ... on a jury bond.

GRACE: Jane, we know there was a note from the jury. We understand it was non-material to the trial. What`s your bet? Scheduling? What?

JANE-VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": Well, it`s really a mystery, and I think it would be sheer speculation. It was a minor procedural matter. That`s all we have been told. We really know only what we can sort of deduce from the jury instructions, which is they`re supposed to go through each of these 10 counts one by one. They have separate verdict forms for each count. When they reach a decision on one count, they`re supposed to put it in an envelope, set it aside, and go to the next count.

And they probably start at the beginning of the conspiracy charge, which is incredibly complicated. Now, that is the weakest of all of the charges. That`s the general consensus. So if they decided to throw that aside and say, OK, none of us buy the conspiracy charge, let`s move on to the more serious lewd conduct charges, then they`re going to get really into the heart of the matter. Then they have to go back to the past acts and consider the past acts phase of the trial.

So it`s extraordinarily complicated. Even law students might look at these jury instructions and have a hard time with them. So I think they might be struggling in there a little bit. But there`s a sense that tomorrow could be a day when they might break through a logjam.

GRACE: Back to Debra Opri. What Jackson family members will be there in the courtroom when the verdict is read?

OPRI: My understanding, Nancy, is everyone, every single member of the immediate family, if the judge lets them into the courtroom.

GRACE: Jason Oshins, we know who the foreperson is. We know that he is a retired juror, has got children. What do you think the selection of this juror as foreperson means?

JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, depends how you`re interpreting it. Obviously, for the defense, you`re having a mature man who might be able to discern between the real testimony of a child and maybe the hyperbole. Obviously, for each side, there`s something that you want to hold on to for who the jury foreperson is. Obviously, neither one -- either side knocked them out. So obviously -- you know, the defense and the prosecution are hoping that, you know, whatever the attributes of this 63-year-old man are work in their favor.

GRACE: Diane Clehane is an entertainment columnist with us tonight. Are his records still actually selling?

CLEHANE: Well, it`s interesting. He sold close to a million album last year. This year to date, he`s sold about 250,000, which is a huge drop. And it`s even a more incredible drop when you think of "Thriller" was the biggest-selling album of all time.

GRACE: You know, if he is found guilty, do you think Jackson will become some sort of a martyr figure for his fans?

CLEHANE: I mean, certainly, for his fans. I mean, they`ll sort of put him up on that pedestal. I mean, as you said many times, there are people that sort of consider him a deity. You know, there`s someone outside the courtroom waiting to release doves if he`s found not guilty. So there will be people that will consider him a martyr..

GRACE: What about his assets, his finances? Has Neverland been sold?

CLEHANE: Neverland has not been sold. And what we think is going to happen is that he probably will sell his stake in the Beatles catalog, which could fetch him close to $500 million.

GRACE: OK, everybody. Quick break. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On May 5, 11 and 16 of 2004, on each of those dates, suitcases -- a suitcase washed up on the shores of Virginia Beach, Virginia, just near the Chesapeake Bay bridge and tunnel. The suitcases contained body parts.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. A horrific crime, gruesome discovery. one man`s body in three different suitcases, designer suitcases that belonged to him. Tonight, Peter Harvey, the New Jersey attorney general prosecuting this case, is with us. Rick Malwitz is also with us. He`s covering the story for "The Home News Tribune."

Welcome, Rick. Bring us up to date, friend.

RICK MALWITZ, "HOME NEWS TRIBUNE": Well, what`s happened so far is that the sisters came up from Virginia to take the children. And Melanie McGuire (ph), the woman who is accused of this crime -- she got released from prison today. There was an issue over her passport that did not allow her...

GRACE: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Take it from the top. I`m more concerned about three suitcases washing up with one body between them.

MALWITZ: Well, what happened is that they closed on a house in late April, and the body started washing up in early May. And what she said in the divorce complaint she filed on May the 25th, she said that he had threatened to disappear. He was going change his name, get a new Social Security number. And all this time, she figured that he was going to be at the bottom of the sea, never to be seen again. And then what happens is that the bodies start washing up ashore. And they showed her photo -- they did a composite of the man`s photo. And friends of his down in Virginia recognized it. They gave Virginia authorities a name. And then what happened was they put the name to the man and realized it was Mr. McGuire.

GRACE: Well, it`s not every day three pieces of luggage wash up with one body between them. Here in the studio with us, we are proud to have the New Jersey attorney general, Peter Harvey. You know, normally, the local district attorney prosecutes a case like this? Why did it go to AG`s office?

PETER HARVEY, NJ ATTORNEY GENERAL: Commonwealth attorney in Virginia Beach sent it to us in September of 2004, asked us to investigate it. We put together a team, state troopers, Division of Criminal Justice investigators, headed by assistant AG Patricia Precioso (ph) and deputy AG Lou Corngat (ph). And they began putting the case together. This is a forensic case, and we`ve always viewed it as a forensic case.

GRACE: Is long story short, sir, nobody knows where the body -- where the murder happened or where the body was dismembered?

HARVEY: We believe we can prove that Mr. McGuire was killed in New Jersey and dismembered in New Jersey. He was shot in the head. He was also shot in the chest, 38-caliber weapon.

GRACE: You found the bullet in the head, right?

HARVEY: That`s correct.

GRACE: Did she buy -- the wife buy a 38-caliber weapon under an assumed name a few before the murder?

HARVEY: Her name -- April 26, 2004, Melanie McGuire purchased a 38- caliber weapon in Pennsylvania, using her name but a false address.

GRACE: Now, I know that looking at your hands, it`s not your pattern to buy fingernail polish, but you may want to become an expert in it after this case. Explain.

HARVEY: True. The body parts, as you know, were found in three separate suitcases. In those suitcases were the body parts, wrapped in garbage bags, wrapped in tape. On one of the pieces of tape, we found a paint chip that`s consistent with nail polish.

GRACE: I want to meet that forensic specialist and that crime tech that found one chip of paint that I assume is tying back to fingernail poll in her home?

HARVEY: The matter is still under investigation. And as we`ve said publicly, look, she`s presumed innocent, and we want to be sure she gets a fair trial. But we also want to be sure that the victim here, William McGuire, also gets a fair day in court, as well, because our system, as you know, is set up to vindicate the rights of the victim.

GRACE: That is certainly true. Very quickly, back to Rick Malwitz, reporter with "The Home News Tribune." Rick, is it true that the wife started giving away her husband`s possessions before the body even washed up? Nobody even knew he was dead?

MALWITZ: Yes. In fact, when she gave away the possessions, there was -- she gave them away in a garbage bag, and there were three garbage bags that were found in the three suitcases, and part of that forensic study said that the same manufacturer came from the same lot, those garbage bags that were -- the body was in, and were found in the clothes that he gave away.

GRACE: Rut-ro (ph). Elizabeth, do I still have Jason Oshins? Jason, you practice in New Jersey. I`ve had cases where you can track back the Hefty bag or the Ziploc bag. You can tell the manufacturer, the brand and the batch -- the batch. Was this little bag made at the same time as the bags in the home? That hurts.

OSHINS: Sure, it does. I mean, certainly, as you know, Nancy, from all your experience, forensic evidence can be overwhelming sometimes to a defense case if done in the right way. And obviously, with the attorney general involved, showing the weight of the case and his staff, clearly, it`s a high-profile case. It involves the body washing up in Virginia. And he`s taking great pains to make sure that he`s working the case as best that he can.

GRACE: Got 45 seconds. Go to Jeff Gardere. I`m all for the presumption of innocence, sir, but could she have at least waited until after the body washed up to give away his clothes and possessions?

GARDERE: Well, she could actually say, well, the reason she gave it away was because he said he was leaving her. But I think, Nancy, as we look at this...

GRACE: OK. That`s true. That`s true.

GARDERE: Yes. As we look at this case, I think we may see a battered woman`s syndrome here. This is -- the victim was a person who had a long history of violence. And we know whatever happened was a severe violence against this man, if it was by this woman.

GRACE: Severe violence? His body was in three separate suitcases.

GARDERE: Shot him in the head, in the chest.

GRACE: Quick break, everybody.

Tonight, after being a victim of violent crime myself and prosecuting violent felonies, I have an objection about how Lady Justice is treated in our justice system! Part of the proceeds from "Objection" going to National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. One man`s body turns up in three separate suitcases. Think about it. Straight back out to Rick Malwitz, reporter with "The Home News Tribune." You know, I was going to ask you for the tip line. But what I don`t get is how this woman, charged with murder, body dismembered, got bail.

MALWITZ: Well, it is -- the state argued that she shouldn`t get bail because they`re actually considering perhaps making it a death penalty case. She didn`t have a record. She had no criminal record. She had roots in the community. And so the judge, in his...

GRACE: Wisdom?

MALWITZ: ... her wisdom...

GRACE: What judge was that?

MALWITZ: What judge was that?

GRACE: Oh, I stumped you!

MALWITZ: Middlesex County.

GRACE: The first night you`ve been on my show, I stumped you!

MALWITZ: Oh!

GRACE: I`m going to give you a chance to look in that little reporter`s notebook I know you`ve got going on there. Bail? Just because she doesn`t have a prior...

MALWITZ: New Jersey...

GRACE: What was in what suitcase, number one? Was the head in one, the torso, and then the legs in the other?

HARVEY: Still subject to our investigation. But remember...

(CROSSTALK)

HARVEY: New Jersey does not have a preventive detention statute. We have a constitutional right, under our state constitution, to bail. So bail must be set. As to whether or not the defendant can meet it is another question.

GRACE: What was the bail in this case?

HARVEY: It was $750,000 cash.

GRACE: So she basically had to put up $7,500.

HARVEY: Not 10 percent cash alternative here. But remember...

GRACE: What did she have to put up?

HARVEY: Well, family members have assets and...

GRACE: Oh, and collateral...

HARVEY: ... people can post it.

GRACE: OK. Back to Rick Malwitz. Do you know the name of the judge? Because I want to know who set bond at -- basically, she could make it $7,500 or a neighbor could put -- a family member could put up the house.

MALWITZ: I`ll probably have to get a 96 on this test. I don`t know the name of the judge for right now.

GRACE: I`m going to have you back on this...

MALWITZ: Oh, OK.

GRACE: ... because it`s very rare, Rick, that one body turns up in three designer suitcases.

Of the victim`s suitcases -- very quickly, I`ve only 30 seconds left - - Peter Harvey, what`s the status of the investigation?

HARVEY: Ongoing investigation. It`s subject to grand jury proceedings right now. We know people saw things, and we`re urging people to come forward and share with us information. We know that there`s information out there that could be had.

GRACE: And look on the screen. There`s the tip line the attorney general is talking about. Thank you to both of you gentlemen, and also to all of my guests tonight.

But my biggest thank you is to you for being with us, inviting all of us into your home. Coming up, headlines from around the world. I`ll be joining Larry over on CNN. I`m Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. Hope to see you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 o`clock sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END


Aired June 7, 2005 - 20:00:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, the search turns desperate for an 18- year-old American girl who took her senior trip with classmates to Aruba and vanished into thin air. Tonight, police and FBI agents descend on the tiny island of Aruba desperately searching for the 18-year-old Alabama girl, Natalee Holloway.
Update, the two hotel security guards suspected in her disappearance lost their jobs just one day before Natalee went missing.

And tonight, a horrific case of murder. A man`s body, cut into pieces, washed ashore in three separate pieces of his own designer suitcases.

And day three of deliberations for a California jury. We are in a verdict watch in the Michael Jackson child molestation trial.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. And I want to thank you for being with us tonight.

The Michael Jackson jury deliberates a second full day. If convicted of child molestation, Jackson faces years behind bars.

And a murder mystery ensued after a gruesome discovery. A man`s body washes ashore in three -- that`s right, one body -- three of his own designer suitcases.

And Aruba is under siege as FBI, police and even their own citizens bear down on the search for 18-year-old Natalee Holloway. And tonight, two suspects still in police custody.

Tonight, in Aruba, defense attorney for one of the two arrested men, Chris LeJuez; in Santa Barbara, defense attorney Debra Opri; in New York, defense attorney Jason Oshins, psychologist Dr. Jeff Gardere.

But first, let`s go to Aruba, and CNN correspondent Karl Penhaul. Welcome back, friend. Karl, bring me up-to-date.

KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Another day of intense searching, Nancy. There have been search-and-rescue teams out there. We understand the FBI divers have been in the water, too, for the first time.

And also U.S. tourists are continuing to join this search, Nancy. They`ve been joining rescue teams looking along the north coast of the island, putting some of the -- sacrificing the Pina Coladas and white, sandy beaches for rocky, thorny scrub hunting. But so far, no further clues, Nancy.

GRACE: Karl Penhaul, what can you tell us about these two men that are still in custody? Are there formal charges yet?

PENHAUL: It would be best to describe these as formal accusations, Nancy. As you know, the Dutch system of legal system here is very different from the U.S. system.

But we can describe these as formal accusations. And the formal accusations, we understand, that are being leveled at these men are murder, homicide, and kidnap leading to death.

GRACE: Karl, if they don`t have a body of this girl, how are they coming up with a murder accusation? Why have they charged them with murder?

PENHAUL: That is the big question. That`s the big question the legal experts are answering. And when, today at an afternoon news conference, the public prosecutors said that they would remand those two suspects in custody for a further eight days, they declined to reveal publicly any of the evidence that they may have gathered against them. So we can`t answer that right now. And the legal experts, we don`t think, were in a position to answer that right now, either.

GRACE: With us also tonight, the defense attorney for one of these two men in custody, arrested in the connection with the disappearance of Natalee Holloway, everyone, as you recall, the 18-year-old Alabama girl who went missing on her senior trip in Aruba.

Chris LeJuez, thank you for being with us. What is the evidence by which they`re holding your guy in custody?

CHRIS LEJUEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I have not seen the evidence as yet. All that I know is that they`re -- apparently there have been people who have described them as possible suspects, but I don`t know anything of a body. I don`t know anything of anyone being dead in this case. So it`s a very strange thing that they have been accused as of now of these charges.

GRACE: What are the official charges against these two men, Chris?

LEJUEZ: Well, I wouldn`t call them formal charges. We will call them accusations for the time being, until the trial is at hand. The charges -- the formal accusations would be murder, that would be a premeditated homicide, premeditated murder, accomplice or accessory to murder, and then also homicide, which would be the same thing without the premeditation, and also being accessory to homicide and the next one would be kidnapping with a fatal consequence.

GRACE: Mr. LeJuez, with were told last night that your client is being uncooperative with police. Why won`t he give a full statement?

LEJUEZ: I don`t know where you got that information from. I don`t know from both these people, because I spoken with both of the persons who are detained right now, they both have stated to me very clearly that they gave a very ample statement to the police. I have seen them at the police station where they were giving their statements. So I have no reason to believe that they did not cooperate with the police.

GRACE: Mr. LeJuez, did either of the two men, to your knowledge, come in contact with Natalee Holloway the night she went missing?

LEJUEZ: I didn`t really quite catch your question. Would you please repeat the question?

GRACE: Sure. Did your client come in contact with the girl the night she went missing?

LEJUEZ: Well, I can assure you that both the people who are in detention right now here in Aruba for this case have denied ever having any contact with Natalee Holloway. They both say they know her only from the press.

GRACE: Mr. LeJuez, were they -- was your client still working at the Allegra Hotel the night Natalee went missing as a security guard?

LEJUEZ: They are not working for this hotel. They are working for a security company. They were dismissed a few days after that, dismissed in the sense that they are not working at the hotel right now. They were going probably to be placed at some other place for this security company.

GRACE: I understand. So you`re telling me, Mr. LeJuez, they did not work for the hotel, they worked for a separate security company? Did that security company provide security to the Allegra Hotel?

LEJUEZ: That`s correct.

GRACE: Did they work at the Allegra Hotel?

LEJUEZ: They were working at the Allegra Hotel for some time now.

GRACE: And Mr. LeJuez, how far away is the Allegra Hotel from the Holiday Inn where Natalee was staying?

LEJUEZ: Approximately two hotels further down, down the beach.

GRACE: Let`s go back to CNN correspondent Karl Penhaul. Karl, do you have any idea what the forensic evidence is, what the evidence is at all, that leads officials to keep these two guys in custody?

PENHAUL: We don`t, at this stage, Nancy. Although, talking again to senior police officials, they have also described to me that there`s tremendous political pressure in this case.

You must remember that Aruba is highly dependent on tourism. This kind of case is really out of character for the island, which traditionally has had a very low crime rate, and none of that crime has traditionally affected the foreign tourists here.

And so there is tremendous political pressure to resolve this case, and even the police are saying that they are feeling that pressure. And so, also, for that reason, prosecutors are playing cards very close to their chest. They haven`t presented any of the forensic evidence.

Yes, earlier in the week, we heard of this mattress stained with blood. That was ruled out, turned out to be dog`s blood. We also heard earlier today about a security company t-shirt stained with blood. But again, that seems to be ruled out, or at least police don`t seem to be making too much of that discovery. And certainly that security company t- shirt wasn`t anything to do with the security company that the two suspects were working for, Nancy.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAUL REYNOLDS, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S UNCLE: We`re doing well. It`s an overwhelming outpouring of support and concern from the island, everyone in the States, the authorities. It`s an amazing series of events, and we`re just touched as to how Natalee has reached people`s lives.

GEORGE "JUG" TWITTY, STEPFATHER OF MISSING GIRL: I hope, I pray to God that she walks through that door or that we find her somewhere. I don`t care if she`s, you know, in a crack house somewhere and she`s been drugged up for, you know, seven days or whatever. We can work with that. We can fix her. We can do whatever to get her back.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Just to hear him say, "We can fix her," back to Chris LeJuez. Sir, are you the defense attorney for one of the suspects or both of them?

LEJUEZ: I have been the defense attorney for both of them for the last two days. But as of tomorrow, I will be only for one of them, because apparently there will be a conflict of interest in defending them both. This has been told to me by the public prosecutor, so I will be resigning from one of the cases. I have no evidence yet that, that is the case, but I do take her word for it.

GRACE: Very quickly, let`s go to Jason Oshins, defense attorney. Jason, you know what that means, that writing is on the wall. If there is a conflict of interest, that means one is turning on the other. That means somebody clearly knows something.

JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, at least one would hope that, from the prosecutor`s perspective. I mean, clearly the fact that there is so much political pressure on this tiny little island, the prosecutor has got to tread very, very carefully and needs to look out for things in advance of what could be a problem. So, yes...

GRACE: Jason...

OSHINS: Yes, Nancy?

GRACE: ... I asked you what it means when there is a conflict of interest between two defendants. It means one is going rat on the other or else Mr. LeJuez could represent both.

OSHINS: Well, no, either way -- yes, you`re right, with respect to that, if that`s what the end result, that one is going to flip on the other, or at the very least, the prosecutor wants to lean on one of the defendants, not knowing which one they`re going to lean on. So that possibly, if there is that flipping, as you say, that information could come out without having already been a conflict that would taint any of the evidence.

GRACE: Very quickly, back to defense attorney Chris LeJuez. He is representing tonight both of the men in custody in Aruba. Sir, do your clients know these three guys that escorted Natalee Holloway away from the Carlos and Charlie`s bar that evening?

LEJUEZ: Both of these persons have told me -- these clients have told me that they don`t know the three people who have brought them to the hotel that evening.

GRACE: Everyone, we are live in Aruba with the latest regarding the disappearance of 18-year-old Natalee Holloway. Please stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Our family isn`t really focusing on the fact that there are dive teams. They`re just focusing on the fact that it`s more help, and the more help the better. And if they don`t turn anything up in the water, that`s great news, because they believe that Natalee is still here on island, alive, somewhere on island.

And that is the family`s belief right now. They are not considering any other option. And they are remaining very, very strong. And they have a great support system here on island from family, from friends, from the local community, and, of course, the U.S. government sending in help is a huge, huge, you know, relief for them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BETH TWITTY, MOTHER OF MISSING GIRL: Our primary goal is to bring Natalee back home. We will do whatever it takes. As I`ve said from the beginning, I`m not leaving Aruba without her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That`s Natalee Holloway`s mother speaking out. She is in Aruba with many other family members tonight, along with Aruban citizens and tourists helping the FBI and police scour the island for 18-year-old Natalee Holloway. She went on her senior trip to Aruba, well-chaperoned, and vanished into thin air. In fact, yesterday, the government gave government employees half a day off to help find Natalee Holloway.

Let`s go straight back out to Chris LeJuez. He is the defense attorney for both suspects that are in custody tonight. Mr. LeJuez, I understand that you`re telling us tonight you represent both of them. Tomorrow, you`re going represent one of them. Which one are you going to represent?

LEJUEZ: Well, one of the Js. They`re both called J, with their initial. And I will be representing J-1.

GRACE: OK, so are their names not public?

LEJUEZ: They might be, but I don`t public names. You might try to get them from the prosecutor`s office.

GRACE: No, that`s fine. Sir, you`re choosing to represent J-1 or are you assigned J-1?

LEJUEZ: I chose to represent one of the two.

GRACE: Why did you choose him over the other one?

LEJUEZ: It`s not really one over the other. But one of the two, not both of them.

GRACE: Do you believe that your client is less culpable than the other client?

LEJUEZ: I have no reason to believe so, because both of them have given extensive statements to the police that they are not implicated in this case whatsoever. And I have no -- you`ve mentioned just now they would be ratting, one would be ratting on the other. I have no reason to believe that is the case. I do have reason to believe that their stories don`t match exactly.

GRACE: Well-put.

To Karl Penhaul, CNN correspondent there in Aruba. Karl, when will these two men be having their first court appearance?

Karl, are you with me? OK, for some reason our satellite is down on Karl Penhaul.

Elizabeth, let me know when we get Karl back.

To Chris LeJuez, sir, when will your client and the co-suspect have their first court appearance?

Darn. Both gone. We`ll let you know when we get them back.

To Jason Oshins, let`s talk another moment about why LeJuez has chosen one client over the other. You`ve been in that predicament before as a defense attorney. Explain.

OSHINS: Well, clearly, as you`re looking at a case there, as he indicated, there could be conflicts between the two. He said there is some inconsistencies in the story. You don`t want to jeopardize one client`s ability to have a not-guilty verdict if that`s the direction it is going to go. You need to be certain about not impeding one or the other`s ability to have a clear defense.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LIZ SANDNER, MISSING GIRL`S BIBLE STUDY LEADER: This is someone who, if she wasn`t going to be at bible study, would call before, say she couldn`t, make an appointment at a different time, sometimes 7:00 a.m. Friday morning, to come recite, you know, her scripture memory for the week.

We just want everybody to keep praying for Natalee because we know she`s going to come home. She`s a strong girl, and she`ll get through this. And she knows that we`re all praying for her. And we`re here for her, waiting for her to come back.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Debra Opri, what`s your take on these breaking developments regarding a conflict?

DEBRA OPRI, JACKSON FAMILY LAWYER: I`m looking at the big picture, Nancy. Obviously, there is guilt. There is a lot of culpability. This individual attorney out there, he`s representing one, the other one. They will turn against each other.

And listen, I`m like the rest of the citizenry listening to this case. Let`s get the girl alive. And if we can`t get her alive, let`s get the evidence to put these people away for a long time.

GRACE: To Dr. Jeff Gardere. Jeff, what`s your take on this?

DR. JEFF GARDERE, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, my take on this is, from what we`ve heard from the relatives of Natalee Holloway, this is a young woman who does things by the book, she does things the right way, she`s a good girl. So if something happened to her, it was probably something against her will.

She may are gone off voluntarily. We don`t know. But if she was taken, she was taken against her will because her pattern is not one to just drift off and...

GRACE: Gone off voluntarily? The girl was leaving the next morning. Here bags were packed. The room was neat.

GARDERE: Nancy, what I`m talking about is when she was at the nightclub, she met a few people. She might have talked with them. But from her profile, her history, she`s not one to just be carefree.

Therefore, if something happened to her, it probably happened to her against her will. And I fear there may have been some violence in this, looking at her psychological profile.

GRACE: Jeff, I`ve got to agree with you.

Quick break, everybody. We are headed to "Trial Tracking." Today, closing arguments in the trial of two pilots accused of getting a (UNINTELLIGIBLE) full and crash landing in the cockpit of a jet full of people. The defense? The pilots were not actually operating the jumbo jet. It hadn`t quite taken off.

Neither pilot took the stand. Both face five years behind bars if convicted.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BETSY RODRIGUEZ, ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY: These two defendants demonstrated on July 1, 2002, when they took the lives of 117 people under their wing, under their wings, they took those lives, representing that they would act responsibly.

But instead, ladies and gentlemen, they demonstrated careless and reckless behavior by getting into that cockpit under the influence of alcohol.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re sending out much love. We try, you know, to be positive.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please do the right thing. Set Michael free.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stay strong and keep fighting. This will all soon be over.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Keep your head up, and you`ve got to be strong. Jacksons are always strong.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: OK, no, this is not a circus. This is not a street festival. That is the courthouse at the Michael Jackson trial.

Let`s go straight out to the courthouse. Jury deliberations raging on. Let`s go to Santa Maria, California. Standing by, trial attorney out of the Seattle jurisdiction, Anne Bremner. In New York, entertainment columnist Diane Clehane.

But first, to "Celebrity Justice" correspondent, Jane Velez-Mitchell. Jane, I`m afraid to ask, but bring me up-to-date, friend.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": You should be afraid to ask, Nancy. It`s a crazy circus here in Santa Maria as the waiting game continues. And it is getting more and more nerve-wracking.

A whole lot going on. But we know very little about what`s going on inside the courthouse. They have deliberated these jurors for two full days. They`ve logged about 13 hours, but we don`t know very much about how they`re doing it or what they`re doing.

We know they asked one question yesterday. That was about a minor procedural matter. They reportedly asked no questions today. We do know the identity of the jury foreman that they have selected, a 63-year-old retired Latino male, a former counselor. He has a Masters degree. He has two grown children.

When he filled out his jury questionnaire, he said he had read very little about this case. He also said that he thought child witnesses were generally trustworthy, although they could twist the truth a little bit under pressure.

I have watched him since the start of this trial. And I`ve got to tell you, he`s very serious and he takes a lot of notes.

GRACE: I`m feeling sick. I hear there is an ambulance standing by at the time of the verdict. Explain, Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, as we`ve seen, Michael Jackson has gone ill at least four times during the course of this trial. He wobbles in and out of court. And I think, certainly, they want to have an ambulance standing by in case, if it`s bad news, he might faint, he might collapse. I think it`s a very, very real possibility that we could see him coming out on a stretcher.

GRACE: We have got 45 seconds, Diane Clehane. Since you`re the one groaning the loudest, you go first.

DIANE CLEHANE, ENTERTAINMENT REPORTER: I think everything that he has done throughout this entire trial has been a performance, from showing up in his pajamas, to sort of, you know, feeble-minded sort of going...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Do you want this?

CLEHANE: No, I think I`ll pass on that, thank you. But I think that we`re really seeing his performance at a peak. I mean, he is the ultimate performer. Everything he`s done has been a performance to date. And I`m sure, regardless of what the verdict is, something completely bizarre, even for him, is about to occur.

GRACE: Ambulance on the standby outside the courthouse getting ready for the Jackson verdict to come down.

Quick break, everybody. As we go to break, I want to remind you that we here at NANCY GRACE want very much to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Take a look at 47-year-old Kent Jacobs. Kent disappeared from Fayetteville, North Carolina, March 2002, just one week before his 43rd birthday.

If you have any information on this man, Kent Jacobs, please call the Carole Sund Carrington Foundation toll-free, 888-813-8389. Please, help us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAY LENO, "TONIGHT" SHOW: The next big question, will Michael Jackson be Robert Blake`s new golf partner or Scott Peterson`s new girlfriend? That`s what we`re waiting to find out. (INAUDIBLE) Waiting on that one.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That`s comedian Jay Leno on the "Tonight" show. He testified for the defense in the Jackson trial, but on cross-examination, he kind of turned into a prosecution witness.

Let`s take a look at other jury deliberations, how long they were out. Can you show me that, Elizabeth, please? O.J. Simpson jury was out for about three hours and 45 minutes before they came back with a whopper that stunned the country. Scott Peterson, seven hours and 14 minutes.

Martha Stewart, about 12 hours to come back with a guilty verdict. Robert Blake, 9 days for that debacle. Not guilty. Puff Daddy Combs, three days for a not guilty by Ben Bronfman, Johnnie Cochran. Jayson Williams, 23 hours to hang on the top count. Not guilty on the lesser counts. Williams looking at a retrial in the jurisdiction of New Jersey.

Very quickly, to Debra Opri. Debra, if Jackson is convicted, A, will he need the ambulance, and B, what will life be like for him behind bars? Can he survive?

DEBRA OPRI, ATTORNEY FOR JACKSON`S PARENTS: OK, first, we have to give him the benefit of the doubt. There has to be some sincerity in his suffering. That ambulance? That ambulance is not only there for Michael, it`s also there for Katherine and Joe, if people must know. There are serious concerns. And what`s going to happen to any of them? Well, you know, shock takes many forms, Nancy, and we`re into day three of the verdict tomorrow, the jury deliberations. And with all the hours of jury deliberations you gave in the other cases, I`m telling you, 20 to 25 hours should be what we need with Michael Jackson.

GRACE: Dr. Jeff Gardere, regarding the ambulance, regarding -- we were just out here, you and I and Diane, making a list of all the times Jackson has had a sick-out. You had the rehab stint in 1993. He was out of the country when he found out an indictment was looking at him. He went to rehab. Cochran got him out of that one.

Elizabeth, do you have that shot of Michael Jackson and his spider bite? This was over a contract dispute, when Jackson claimed he was ill over a spider bite. It affected only his foot. OK. Then we had the flu at the beginning of trial, during jury selection, the projectile vomiting during the case, the back pain, I think he had to go to the hospital. Yes, that was pajama day. Then Friday, it was dehydration day. Over the weekend, it was back pain again. Thoughts?

JEFFREY GARDERE, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, my thought on this is Debbie`s absolutely correct. Michael Jackson is a very sensitive individual, a person who does have some mental health issues, I believe. I believe when his -- when he gets in trouble like this, his emotional immune system starts to lower. So even though he may have some very minor physical problems, they become overly exacerbated by the psychological issues and the stress. The bottom line is, he`s standing trial for his life here, and I believe that he could faint. It could be a real problem, and so the ambulance should be there. And I don`t think it`s a joking matter.

GRACE: OK. Could you show that picture of the spider bite again, please, Elizabeth? Every time there is a crisis in a courtroom or a crisis in a case, we have a sick-out. Now, is it a joke? No. It`s not a joke. You know why? It costs the taxpayers a lot of money to put on a trial! It costs these jurors days out of work, days away from their family! It`s three alleged child molestation victims waiting on a verdict. You`re darn right it`s not a joke to sick-out during a felony jury trial, Dr. Gardere!

GARDERE: I`m not quite sure it is about a sick-out. Here we are Sunday. He went into the hospital for back pains. That`s not about a sick-out. This is about a person who had a legitimate back injury, from what we`ve seen in medical records, and again it has been exacerbated by this incredible stress that he is experiencing in this trial. This can happen to anyone who is being accused of child molestation, kidnapping and other charges.

GRACE: You know what? Out of all the child molestation cases I ever prosecuted, I never had a single person ask for a court delay over a spider bite. But you know what? You`re entitled to your opinion.

GARDERE: But you never had a Michael Jackson.

GRACE: No.

GARDERE: And Michael Jackson is a unique individual. That we must give him.

GRACE: Correct me if I`m wrong, but doesn`t Lady Justice wear a blindfold, so she does not know the difference between white or black, rich or poor, uneducated or educated? Did I miss something?

GARDERE: And those who have mental health issues and those who do not.

GRACE: Oh, you`re saying it`s mental health? OK.

Diane Clehane, if he is acquitted, what happens?

DIANE CLEHANE, ENTERTAINMENT COLUMNIST: I think it`s going to be really interesting to see what happens. I mean, he -- he`s finished if he`s convicted. If he`s acquitted, he`s all but finished. He has to really look at where he can go and perform and try to get some semblance of his career back. It`s very, very doubtful that he`ll ever really recapture any of his stardom.

GRACE: Diane, there are rumors floating right now that he is planning an American or a world tour, putting the band back together again with the Jackson Five.

CLEHANE: Right. I think that it`s very unlikely he`d do an American tour. A world tour is more likely because he`d want to get out of the country. And Jesse Jackson actually also said that he was interested in going to Africa because he was thinking about doing a theme park for kids. I mean, if I were his adviser, that`s the last thing he needs to do is go anywhere near anything that has to do with kids again.

GRACE: To Anne Bremner, trial lawyer standing by at the courthouse. Explain to me the procedure. What happens if ~he is found guilty? Where does he go? What happens?

ANNE BREMNER, TRIAL ATTORNEY: Well, in California, Nancy, he does not have to be taken immediately into custody, as in some other jurisdictions, like mine, in Seattle. On sexual assault felonies, one does not pass go or collect $200. They go directly to jail, no right to bail. He will be considered for bail. And the question is, you know, to what extent is he convicted on the prison counts or just probation-type counts?

So the judge has the discretion, as you know, Nancy, from trying so many cases, to decide at that point whether or not he would be remanded or have his bail revoked and he would go directly into custody. That is a possibility, especially with some of the issues in this case, where he`s come in in his pajamas or there`s been issues about, you know, his attendance, and of course, potential for flight, potential for danger to children. So that`s the scenario.

And it could be astonishing for him, that day, to be put in cuffs and taken out not in an ambulance, but in, basically, a paddy wagon. And so, of course, the ambulance, for him, would be preferable indeed. But that`s the scenario. Or he be could just released on bail and be back at Neverland...

GRACE: Back to Jane Velez-Mitchell.

BREMNER: ... on a jury bond.

GRACE: Jane, we know there was a note from the jury. We understand it was non-material to the trial. What`s your bet? Scheduling? What?

JANE-VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": Well, it`s really a mystery, and I think it would be sheer speculation. It was a minor procedural matter. That`s all we have been told. We really know only what we can sort of deduce from the jury instructions, which is they`re supposed to go through each of these 10 counts one by one. They have separate verdict forms for each count. When they reach a decision on one count, they`re supposed to put it in an envelope, set it aside, and go to the next count.

And they probably start at the beginning of the conspiracy charge, which is incredibly complicated. Now, that is the weakest of all of the charges. That`s the general consensus. So if they decided to throw that aside and say, OK, none of us buy the conspiracy charge, let`s move on to the more serious lewd conduct charges, then they`re going to get really into the heart of the matter. Then they have to go back to the past acts and consider the past acts phase of the trial.

So it`s extraordinarily complicated. Even law students might look at these jury instructions and have a hard time with them. So I think they might be struggling in there a little bit. But there`s a sense that tomorrow could be a day when they might break through a logjam.

GRACE: Back to Debra Opri. What Jackson family members will be there in the courtroom when the verdict is read?

OPRI: My understanding, Nancy, is everyone, every single member of the immediate family, if the judge lets them into the courtroom.

GRACE: Jason Oshins, we know who the foreperson is. We know that he is a retired juror, has got children. What do you think the selection of this juror as foreperson means?

JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, depends how you`re interpreting it. Obviously, for the defense, you`re having a mature man who might be able to discern between the real testimony of a child and maybe the hyperbole. Obviously, for each side, there`s something that you want to hold on to for who the jury foreperson is. Obviously, neither one -- either side knocked them out. So obviously -- you know, the defense and the prosecution are hoping that, you know, whatever the attributes of this 63-year-old man are work in their favor.

GRACE: Diane Clehane is an entertainment columnist with us tonight. Are his records still actually selling?

CLEHANE: Well, it`s interesting. He sold close to a million album last year. This year to date, he`s sold about 250,000, which is a huge drop. And it`s even a more incredible drop when you think of "Thriller" was the biggest-selling album of all time.

GRACE: You know, if he is found guilty, do you think Jackson will become some sort of a martyr figure for his fans?

CLEHANE: I mean, certainly, for his fans. I mean, they`ll sort of put him up on that pedestal. I mean, as you said many times, there are people that sort of consider him a deity. You know, there`s someone outside the courtroom waiting to release doves if he`s found not guilty. So there will be people that will consider him a martyr..

GRACE: What about his assets, his finances? Has Neverland been sold?

CLEHANE: Neverland has not been sold. And what we think is going to happen is that he probably will sell his stake in the Beatles catalog, which could fetch him close to $500 million.

GRACE: OK, everybody. Quick break. Stay with us.

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On May 5, 11 and 16 of 2004, on each of those dates, suitcases -- a suitcase washed up on the shores of Virginia Beach, Virginia, just near the Chesapeake Bay bridge and tunnel. The suitcases contained body parts.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. A horrific crime, gruesome discovery. one man`s body in three different suitcases, designer suitcases that belonged to him. Tonight, Peter Harvey, the New Jersey attorney general prosecuting this case, is with us. Rick Malwitz is also with us. He`s covering the story for "The Home News Tribune."

Welcome, Rick. Bring us up to date, friend.

RICK MALWITZ, "HOME NEWS TRIBUNE": Well, what`s happened so far is that the sisters came up from Virginia to take the children. And Melanie McGuire (ph), the woman who is accused of this crime -- she got released from prison today. There was an issue over her passport that did not allow her...

GRACE: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Take it from the top. I`m more concerned about three suitcases washing up with one body between them.

MALWITZ: Well, what happened is that they closed on a house in late April, and the body started washing up in early May. And what she said in the divorce complaint she filed on May the 25th, she said that he had threatened to disappear. He was going change his name, get a new Social Security number. And all this time, she figured that he was going to be at the bottom of the sea, never to be seen again. And then what happens is that the bodies start washing up ashore. And they showed her photo -- they did a composite of the man`s photo. And friends of his down in Virginia recognized it. They gave Virginia authorities a name. And then what happened was they put the name to the man and realized it was Mr. McGuire.

GRACE: Well, it`s not every day three pieces of luggage wash up with one body between them. Here in the studio with us, we are proud to have the New Jersey attorney general, Peter Harvey. You know, normally, the local district attorney prosecutes a case like this? Why did it go to AG`s office?

PETER HARVEY, NJ ATTORNEY GENERAL: Commonwealth attorney in Virginia Beach sent it to us in September of 2004, asked us to investigate it. We put together a team, state troopers, Division of Criminal Justice investigators, headed by assistant AG Patricia Precioso (ph) and deputy AG Lou Corngat (ph). And they began putting the case together. This is a forensic case, and we`ve always viewed it as a forensic case.

GRACE: Is long story short, sir, nobody knows where the body -- where the murder happened or where the body was dismembered?

HARVEY: We believe we can prove that Mr. McGuire was killed in New Jersey and dismembered in New Jersey. He was shot in the head. He was also shot in the chest, 38-caliber weapon.

GRACE: You found the bullet in the head, right?

HARVEY: That`s correct.

GRACE: Did she buy -- the wife buy a 38-caliber weapon under an assumed name a few before the murder?

HARVEY: Her name -- April 26, 2004, Melanie McGuire purchased a 38- caliber weapon in Pennsylvania, using her name but a false address.

GRACE: Now, I know that looking at your hands, it`s not your pattern to buy fingernail polish, but you may want to become an expert in it after this case. Explain.

HARVEY: True. The body parts, as you know, were found in three separate suitcases. In those suitcases were the body parts, wrapped in garbage bags, wrapped in tape. On one of the pieces of tape, we found a paint chip that`s consistent with nail polish.

GRACE: I want to meet that forensic specialist and that crime tech that found one chip of paint that I assume is tying back to fingernail poll in her home?

HARVEY: The matter is still under investigation. And as we`ve said publicly, look, she`s presumed innocent, and we want to be sure she gets a fair trial. But we also want to be sure that the victim here, William McGuire, also gets a fair day in court, as well, because our system, as you know, is set up to vindicate the rights of the victim.

GRACE: That is certainly true. Very quickly, back to Rick Malwitz, reporter with "The Home News Tribune." Rick, is it true that the wife started giving away her husband`s possessions before the body even washed up? Nobody even knew he was dead?

MALWITZ: Yes. In fact, when she gave away the possessions, there was -- she gave them away in a garbage bag, and there were three garbage bags that were found in the three suitcases, and part of that forensic study said that the same manufacturer came from the same lot, those garbage bags that were -- the body was in, and were found in the clothes that he gave away.

GRACE: Rut-ro (ph). Elizabeth, do I still have Jason Oshins? Jason, you practice in New Jersey. I`ve had cases where you can track back the Hefty bag or the Ziploc bag. You can tell the manufacturer, the brand and the batch -- the batch. Was this little bag made at the same time as the bags in the home? That hurts.

OSHINS: Sure, it does. I mean, certainly, as you know, Nancy, from all your experience, forensic evidence can be overwhelming sometimes to a defense case if done in the right way. And obviously, with the attorney general involved, showing the weight of the case and his staff, clearly, it`s a high-profile case. It involves the body washing up in Virginia. And he`s taking great pains to make sure that he`s working the case as best that he can.

GRACE: Got 45 seconds. Go to Jeff Gardere. I`m all for the presumption of innocence, sir, but could she have at least waited until after the body washed up to give away his clothes and possessions?

GARDERE: Well, she could actually say, well, the reason she gave it away was because he said he was leaving her. But I think, Nancy, as we look at this...

GRACE: OK. That`s true. That`s true.

GARDERE: Yes. As we look at this case, I think we may see a battered woman`s syndrome here. This is -- the victim was a person who had a long history of violence. And we know whatever happened was a severe violence against this man, if it was by this woman.

GRACE: Severe violence? His body was in three separate suitcases.

GARDERE: Shot him in the head, in the chest.

GRACE: Quick break, everybody.

Tonight, after being a victim of violent crime myself and prosecuting violent felonies, I have an objection about how Lady Justice is treated in our justice system! Part of the proceeds from "Objection" going to National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.

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GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. One man`s body turns up in three separate suitcases. Think about it. Straight back out to Rick Malwitz, reporter with "The Home News Tribune." You know, I was going to ask you for the tip line. But what I don`t get is how this woman, charged with murder, body dismembered, got bail.

MALWITZ: Well, it is -- the state argued that she shouldn`t get bail because they`re actually considering perhaps making it a death penalty case. She didn`t have a record. She had no criminal record. She had roots in the community. And so the judge, in his...

GRACE: Wisdom?

MALWITZ: ... her wisdom...

GRACE: What judge was that?

MALWITZ: What judge was that?

GRACE: Oh, I stumped you!

MALWITZ: Middlesex County.

GRACE: The first night you`ve been on my show, I stumped you!

MALWITZ: Oh!

GRACE: I`m going to give you a chance to look in that little reporter`s notebook I know you`ve got going on there. Bail? Just because she doesn`t have a prior...

MALWITZ: New Jersey...

GRACE: What was in what suitcase, number one? Was the head in one, the torso, and then the legs in the other?

HARVEY: Still subject to our investigation. But remember...

(CROSSTALK)

HARVEY: New Jersey does not have a preventive detention statute. We have a constitutional right, under our state constitution, to bail. So bail must be set. As to whether or not the defendant can meet it is another question.

GRACE: What was the bail in this case?

HARVEY: It was $750,000 cash.

GRACE: So she basically had to put up $7,500.

HARVEY: Not 10 percent cash alternative here. But remember...

GRACE: What did she have to put up?

HARVEY: Well, family members have assets and...

GRACE: Oh, and collateral...

HARVEY: ... people can post it.

GRACE: OK. Back to Rick Malwitz. Do you know the name of the judge? Because I want to know who set bond at -- basically, she could make it $7,500 or a neighbor could put -- a family member could put up the house.

MALWITZ: I`ll probably have to get a 96 on this test. I don`t know the name of the judge for right now.

GRACE: I`m going to have you back on this...

MALWITZ: Oh, OK.

GRACE: ... because it`s very rare, Rick, that one body turns up in three designer suitcases.

Of the victim`s suitcases -- very quickly, I`ve only 30 seconds left - - Peter Harvey, what`s the status of the investigation?

HARVEY: Ongoing investigation. It`s subject to grand jury proceedings right now. We know people saw things, and we`re urging people to come forward and share with us information. We know that there`s information out there that could be had.

GRACE: And look on the screen. There`s the tip line the attorney general is talking about. Thank you to both of you gentlemen, and also to all of my guests tonight.

But my biggest thank you is to you for being with us, inviting all of us into your home. Coming up, headlines from around the world. I`ll be joining Larry over on CNN. I`m Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. Hope to see you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 o`clock sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END