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Nancy Grace

Nancy Grace for June 8, 2005, CNNHN

Aired June 08, 2005 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news in the case of an 18-year- old Alabama girl who went on her senior trip to Aruba and vanished into thin air. Tonight, two men suspected in the case court-ordered to remain behind bars. Could Natalee Holloway still be alive somewhere in Aruba?
And jury deliberations rage on in the Michael Jackson child sex trial. We are on a verdict watch.

And the jury speaks in the case of two jet pilots on trial in Florida for drinking all night and then crash-landing in the cockpit of a jumbo jet full of passengers.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. And I want to thank you for being with us tonight.

Two jet pilots on trial for getting a snootful (ph), then crash- landing in the cockpit of a jetliner, have a date with Lady Justice in a Florida courtroom today. A Florida jury handing down a guilty verdict.

And it`s day four in the Jackson jury deliberations in California. We are in a verdict watch in the Michael Jackson child sex trial.

But first, to Aruba. Eighteen-year-old Natalee Halloway still missing, day ten. Tonight, two men, Anthony John and Abraham Jones, ordered behind bars, as evidence appears to mount that they were involved with Natalee`s disappearance. Could the girl be alive? Natalee, where are you?

Tonight, in Aruba, we`ll be bringing the lawyers of both the suspects to you. With us tonight, Noraina Pietersz and Chris LeJuez; in Santa Maria, California, defense attorney Debra Opri; in San Francisco, defense attorney Daniel Horowitz; in New York, psychotherapist Lauren Howard.

But first, let`s go to Aruba and CNN correspondent Karl Penhaul. Welcome, Karl. There was an appearance today. I would have thought a court appearance. But wasn`t it there in the police station? What was the point of the hearing?

KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It was in the police station, Nancy. And it was a closed-door appearance. There was no media nor any of the relatives allowed into that hearing.

The judge went to the police station to hear evidence from prosecutors and make a decision whether they were able to remand these two suspects in custody for a further eight days. The judge gave the affirmative on that. And the two suspects will remain in separate police cells on opposite sides of the island for the coming eight days.

GRACE: Karl, you said separate police cells on opposite sides of the island. They`re not even in the same jail house?

PENHAUL: They`re not in the same jail house. One`s being held in a police station on the northern part of the island. And the other, we understand, on the eastern side of the island. This seems to be a procedural matter here on the island of Aruba. And the prosecutors and police are taking no chances that the men can confer in any shape or form. It`s a procedural matter, so that they don`t compare notes.

GRACE: A question regarding the two men. Their families were not allowed at the hearing today?

PENHAUL: Their families weren`t allowed inside the hearing. The mother of one of the defendants, of Abraham Jones, appeared at the courtroom expecting her son to appear there and for her to catch a glimpse. She wasn`t able to see him there, and she maintains that he is innocent, that her son wouldn`t do anything like that. Also, his girlfriend was there, and she maintains that she was with her boyfriend on the night that Natalee Holloway disappeared.

We`ve also talked to the mother of Mickey John, the second suspect. And she also has been talking to us a little about his character.

GRACE: Well, Karl Penhaul, I understand the girlfriend of one of the suspects says she was with him the night before -- they went to a concert, I believe -- and that he reported to work the next morning. But just last night, his then-attorney said that he was between assignments, that he didn`t have a place to report to.

PENHAUL: What we actually have been told by the attorney, and what my recollection of last night`s conversation is, Nancy, is that the assignment as security guard at the Allegro Hotel was due to finish later in the week, either Tuesday or Wednesday, because the Allegro is up for refurbishment and that the security company there is a contract company, not permanently assigned to that hotel. So they would have either then been moved out of the security company altogether or that contract would then have been assigned somewhere else.

GRACE: Last night, we met the defense counsel for one of the men, Abraham Jones. That attorney, Chris LeJuez. Tonight, we are joined by the attorney for the other young man. With us tonight, Noraina Pietersz. She is defense attorney for Antonius John.

Welcome ma`am. Thank you for being with us.

NORAINA PIETERSZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, Nancy, thank you.

GRACE: Tell me what happened at the hearing today.

PIETERSZ: Well, this morning, my client, Mr. John, Antonius John is his name, he had to appear in front of the prosecutor, also in front of the judge of instructions. As well, the prosecutor decided that, according to her, there has to be done more investigation. So she decided to prolong the detention with eight more days.

GRACE: Now, how long can your client be held behind bars while prosecutors get their case together?

PIETERSZ: Can you repeat that question, please?

GRACE: Yes. How long can your client be held in jail while prosecutors get evidence against them?

PIETERSZ: Well, actually, at this moment, he`s not in jail. He`s in police detention. He`s by the police station. And basically, he could be held as long as ten days.

The prosecutor has the authority to prolong his detention with eight days. She`s authorized to do that by law. There`s no legal problem with that. So if within those eight days there`s no hard evidence, or at least more indication of guilt, which at this moment there`s very little indication or none, at all, according to the defense, she will have to ask, in case she wants to keep them longer in detention, she will have to ask the judge of instruction`s permission for that.

GRACE: With us, Noraina Pietersz. She is the attorney for Antonius John.

Ma`am, you`re saying he`s not in jail. Is he free to leave?

PIETERSZ: Excuse me? I cannot hear you.

GRACE: Is your client free to leave?

PIETERSZ: He`s not free to leave. At this moment, not. He will have to stay by the police station until next Wednesday.

GRACE: Ma`am, when you say he is by the police station, what kind of a structure is he in?

PIETERSZ: Well, it`s not -- actually, it`s an administration office. And in the back, they have several cells. And the suspect will kept in those cells for the ten days. No longer than that.

GRACE: So he`s in a cell. He can`t leave. Police are holding him. But you say he`s not in jail?

PIETERSZ: Well, the thing is that the judge of instructions, when we appeared in front of him, he decided that a detention of my client was legal. And while he did that, that means that he will have, for now, stay there by the police station.

Of course, there are legal measures that we can take as defense. But we have to see if that will be practical, yes or no. Since the maximum time he will have to stay there are ten days, for the prosecutor to prolong that or to ask for prolongation, we will have to appear in front of the judge of instructions, and he will have to gave his (UNINTELLIGIBLE) for that.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: OK, let me quickly go to defense attorney Daniel Horowitz standing by. Daniel Horowitz, this is basically bass-ackwards from the way that it works in America. Because you don`t arrest somebody and put them in a cell of an administration building by the jail unless you`ve got a case against them. You don`t get arrested while the state, while the prosecutor, tries to put together a case.

DANIEL HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Exactly, Nancy. And there`s a problem with this, also. It focuses on these two men so much, and it doesn`t give them the freedom to be out and prove their innocence or gather evidence on their own behalf.

You know, Nancy, these guys could be patsies. I`m concerned about those three rich kids who were with this young lady and supposedly dropped her off at a hotel and then she just vanishes. I don`t like the idea of the focus on these two guys alone.

GRACE: Let me go back to Karl Penhaul on that very issue. Karl Penhaul, CNN correspondent, is with us in Aruba. Karl, there are murmurings to that exact issue, that these two security guards are being targeted while the actual guys that were with her, that took her away from the restaurant, have been set free.

Explain. Why are these two being held? Did they run into the girl after the other three let her go? I mean, why are they being held and the other three have been let go? Is it true they are from rich or influential families, while these two are not?

PENHAUL: That`s the question on a lot of people`s lips right now, Nancy. We`ve been talking around. We`ve also been talking to the suspects` families. A number of answers to that.

The three young men last seen in the company of Natalee Holloway outside Carlos and Charlie`s, we understand, were never arrested, were never detained by police. Yes, they were interviewed. But the police in a press conference earlier this week have said that no evidence in terms of the car that they all drove away in was confiscated at any stage.

Meanwhile, the two suspects, three of their vehicles have been confiscated. One of the suspect`s mother`s cars, a cousin`s car, I believe, and one of the cars belonging to one of the suspects. Those are being looked at, even though there`s nothing, apparently, according to the defense attorneys, in any witness statement to suggest that Natalee Holloway was ever seen in the company of these two suspects, let alone got in their cars.

As far as the identities of the three people, the young men that are being named or were named as persons of interest, indeed, they do seem to be from influential families, certainly middle-class families, a little difficult in this context to spell out exactly whom they are.

But what the mother of Mickey John -- Antonius John, but Mickey his mother calls him -- what she says is that here what is at stake, or one part of the problem is, is that there`s a race issue here, because the people, the three young men are of influential, middle-class, largely white families, descendents of the Dutch colonizers that once came here, whereas the two suspects are from black immigrant families who maybe have been here for many years but nevertheless are still regarded as immigrants.

And so the mother of one of the defendants says that she believes that there is a color, a race issue here at stake, as well.

GRACE: Very quickly, Karl Penhaul, before we go to break, let me just put race and money out of the picture. And tell me this: The cars belonging to the three guys that took her from the hotel have been searched and released. What about the cars belonging to these two security guards? Have the cars been released or do the police still have them impounded?

PENHAUL: The police, we understand, still have them impounded. We talked to Mickey John`s mother just a few hours ago. Her car is still impounded. She has been unable to go to work for the last three days. She has no transport.

GRACE: We`re about to go to break.

But very quickly, to attorney Debra Opri, if they still have these guys` cars, now that`s a whole different matter. If they release the other car, they`re holding onto this one, that suggests maybe they found some forensic evidence in it.

DEBRA OPRI, JACKSON FAMILY LAWYER: You know, Nancy, look at it this way. I don`t believe in this instance with the eyes of the world watching Aruba that there`s going to be any preferential treatment. I do believe, if they follow the leads that they`ve gotten, or including the forensic evidence, it may lead to, in fact, Aruba being a way station for some sort of activity in drugs or prostitution movement to 17 miles away to a country called Colombia. And I think that`s going to be more evident in future days.

GRACE: Quick break, everybody. We are live in Aruba with the defense attorneys for both of these young men, men that are being held in suspicion of the disappearance of an 18-year-old American girl from Alabama. She was on her high school senior trip, Natalee Holloway. Please stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CYNTHIA JONES, MOTHER OF ONE OF SUSPECTS: Abraham is a very quiet guy. No child is a saint, but Abraham goes to his work. He goes out with his girlfriend. Marta (ph) was (UNINTELLIGIBLE) you know, he goes to the place. Yes, you understand?

But God do it so, God put it so, that that night when this thing happened my child was in his house with his woman. But God is above. God is above. God knows my son is innocent. And I will go down for it. My son is innocent.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CYNTHIA DE GRAF, SUSPECT`S GIRLFRIEND: We went to the soul beach festival together. Me, Abraham and my friend, Bernadine (ph).

QUESTION: So you know he wasn`t there?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He wasn`t there. He was with me. He was with Bernadine (ph). We went and picked up our daughter by my mom. We went home. He was even sick. He got up in the morning, went to work. And now they`re going to put it on him? Come on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back, everybody.

Her boyfriend is in custody tonight along with another man in connection with the disappearance of 18-year-old Natalee Holloway, an Alabama student on her high school senior trip. She disappeared about ten days ago. This is a shot of her and her mother, her family distraught, vowing not to leave Aruba without Natalee.

Tonight, let`s go straight back down to Aruba. Joining us, Abraham Jones` lawyer, Chris LeJuez.

Thank you for being with us again, Chris.

Still with us, CNN correspondent Karl Penhaul. Very quickly to Karl Penhaul, Karl, did either of the three young men who took Natalee from the bar that night ever tell police that they had slept with her, had sex with her?

PENHAUL: We haven`t heard that directly because the evidence here and the witness statements here are highly confidential. The defense attorneys have seen some of those witness statements, I understand. But I do understand that, in the file, there are not three witness statements. I understand there are possibly only two witness statements.

We do hear from police sources, however, that the three men, at least one of them, says that they did go to the beach with Natalee and had some fun. The interpretation of that, I`m not aware of, Nancy.

GRACE: Now, is this coming from the defense attorneys?

PENHAUL: That "fun" bit of information was from a police source, that the three men or one of the three men, at least, had said that they`d gone to the beach with Natalee after leaving Carlos and Charlie`s and "had some fun." They didn`t specify what "had some fun" meant, but the beach where the two had gone or where the group had gone have been searched. That, I believe, is called Arashi Beach.

GRACE: You know, Debra Opri, I have been assigned several rape-murder cases, all right? You handle felony prosecutions, you`re going to get one of those, at least one. Normally, the guy that had sex with the woman just before her death is somehow involved in the death. It`s just common sense, OK?

If that is in the defense file, from one of these three guys, this is a very, very unusual arrest of two other suspects. What do you think, Debra?

OPRI: I have to tell you, I just don`t think this is a rape-murder case. I don`t. My gut is telling me this is part of a transport, a prostitution business with the country of Colombia. I hear too many stories. I know too many people who have gone down to Aruba...

GRACE: Oh, good God, Debra, you heard a story? That is the basis of this theory?

OPRI: Nancy, Nancy, let me finish. There are many instances where women will go down there, that age, that type, blonde-haired, and they are drugged and transported to Colombia, period, bottom line. Those are what the investigation and the facts tell you, and those are the stories.

Now, looking at a potential rape-murder, we don`t have any evidence. We don`t have anything to give us that result. That`s just your opinion based upon your experience.

I believe, because there`s no evidence at this point in time, no body, I`m going to pull away from a murder and go with kidnapping and transport to Colombia.

GRACE: Well, Debra, I don`t entirely disagree with you.

Hey, Elizabeth, can we show...

OPRI: No, I know. We`re in agreement.

GRACE: Can you show us the picture of the island, Elizabeth?

I mean, so far, Karl Penhaul, the island is 19.6 miles long. It`s six miles wide. It has been searched by police, by the FBI, by the citizens. They were given a half a day holiday to look for Natalee. And you would think that in this geographic area, if a body was there, it would have been found, although it`s sitting right in the middle of the ocean. There`s that possibility, too, Karl.

PENHAUL: Well, there have been a number of developments on the search front, in fact, Nancy. Because the FBI specialist dive team, you`ll remember that that was requested, and that was going to be brought in. It was brought in, but those divers never dived. And those divers have now left, according to our FBI contact. And the reason they left is because no area was ever pinpointed for them to search.

We`ve also talked to Aruba search-and-rescue teams. And they say today they have been doing their own thing, basically. Normally, they take the lead from the government in order to pinpoint certain areas where they can search. But the government ministries are no longer providing them with any area to search because most of the public areas have now been searched. So that throws up the question, where to search now?

GRACE: Karl, wait a minute. You told me the divers left without putting a toe in the water? Is that correct?

PENHAUL: Not a toe, not a flipper, Nancy. They haven`t been in the water.

GRACE: OK, wait a minute. Wait. Wait. And you`re saying it`s because they don`t know which part of the beach to search? Why don`t they try starting with the beach where the guys say they took her?

PENHAUL: Again, I`m not privy to that kind of information. But what one of the search-and-rescue team members did explain is that he would have expected the dive teams to be diving off some of the craggy shorelines where the currents are strongest, the currents that are being channeled in through that narrow stretch of sea between the southern coast of Aruba and the northern coast of Venezuela.

But again, they`re also here as guests of Aruba. They can`t operate independently. And the FBI contacts have said it`s because the government of Aruba hasn`t pinpointed the areas where they should be searching. That`s why they didn`t go in the water. That`s why they`ve now left, Nancy.

GRACE: Quick break, everybody. We`re going back live to Aruba.

But first, to "Trial Tracking." Tonight, as you know, we have been looking for Patrick Welsh. Welsh, the 22-year-old college student who disappeared in April during a trip to New York City. His body was found last week in New York`s Hudson River. His family was contacted just last night.

Patrick was a writing major. He had planned to graduate in December. No word on Patrick`s cause of death. As of tonight, what happened to Patrick remains a mystery.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Natalee Holloway went on her senior trip. She`s a beautiful Alabama girl. She looks like a beauty queen, full scholarship to University of Alabama. She has not been seen since.

Welcome back. Let`s go straight to Aruba. Two men in custody tonight.

Let`s go to Chris LeJuez. He`s defense counsel for Abraham Jones.

Chris, do you have any idea what the evidence is against your client?

CHRIS LEJUEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The evidence is that someone said that they have seen my client around that hour, the hour of 2:30 in the morning, when Natalee probably disappeared, down at the pool area of the hotel. That is basically all the evidence that they do have.

GRACE: And what is your client`s alibi?

LEJUEZ: My client states very categorically that he has been with his wife and a friend at a sun beach soul festival. He met people there. After that, he went to pick up his son at his mother`s house. They took the friend home, and they went home to sleep.

The next morning, he went to work at around 8 o`clock. So he has a perfect alibi. He has several witnesses to the fact.

GRACE: Chris LeJuez, what is the penalty, the maximum penalty in Aruba for murder?

LEJUEZ: For murder, the maximum would be 20-to-life. I can assure you that we have -- I have not seen any kind of evidence that murder has been committed (UNINTELLIGIBLE) that somebody is dead anywhere, with regard to this case.

GRACE: Thank you, sir.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAY LENO, HOST, "TONIGHT" SHOW: This trial has been taking up so much of Michael`s time, he`s been neglecting his duties at the Neverland ranch. In fact -- in fact (INAUDIBLE) I don`t know, has anyone even checked the traps at the Neverland ranch? Have we -- Alan (ph), can we see -- can you check the traps at the Neverland ranch? Oh, look at that! Yes, see? There you go right there.

(LAUGHTER)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: I hope the jury knows they`re not supposed to be watching. That`s comedian Jay Leno on the "Tonight" show. He testified for the defense at the Jackson trial, but many court watchers believe he turned into a state`s witness on cross-exam.

Welcome back, everybody. Let`s go straight out to Jane Velez- Mitchell, standing by at the courthouse, with "Celebrity Justice." Jane, what`s going on in the jury deliberation room?

JANE-VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": Well, I have to tell you, it was another crazy day here in the Jackson trial. The jury deliberated all day long, did not even ask one question of the court.

But the big question outside court is, Who is in charge in the Jackson camp? Because there seems to be a lot of mixed signals and there seems to be some sort of tug-of-war developing. We`ve been hearing for days now that defense attorney Tom Mesereau was not happy with the Reverend Jesse Jackson appearing here at court and holding news conferences while the jury was deliberating. But he was back again today, and this time, the Reverend Jackson said that the jury was being subjected to psychological warfare because of all the media reports. Then Jackson publicist and spokeswoman Raymone Bain held another news conference. She said she wanted to dispel a lot of false rumors.

Well, shortly after that, there was a buzz. We heard word that a statement was coming down. The media converged. Tom Mesereau issued a statement saying he has not authorized anyone to hold any news conferences and reminding everybody that there is a gag order in place. And then a statement came from Michael Jackson and the Jackson family, essentially echoing that, saying that the only people authorized to speak are the attorneys.

So it seems to have come full circle. It seems clear that Mesereau and the family don`t want these news conferences. We`ll have to see what happens tomorrow.

GRACE: To Debra Opri -- does that leave Raymone Bain out in the cold? We`ve been getting news conferences from her every day. There was a long one today.

DEBRA OPRI, ATTORNEY FOR JACKSON`S PARENTS: Well, I absolutely respect Tom Mesereau. He`s the boss. And the Jackson family -- it`s their lives. I`m telling you, I`m not speaking for Tom Mesereau. Tom Mesereau and Raymone Bain and the Jackson family know who Tom Mesereau is talking about. And they should follow his advice very closely, in my opinion.

GRACE: Well, I`ve got the two suspects on the screen right now. Raymone Bain and Jesse Jackson are the only people that have been speaking out. The family has remained fairly quiet. These two have been at the courthouse speaking quite often.

You know, let me quickly go to Daniel Horowitz. Dan, does it muddle up a case when family and friends blab to a microphone?

DANIEL HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I don`t think so, Nancy. I mean, we do have a 1st Amendment. There`s some aspect of public education by having some sort of discourse. We`ve got Debbie Opri who is advocating for Michael Jackson, but she`s a family attorney. I don`t know how Raymone Bain gets around the order, but she has for months. And Jesse Jackson`s been over the top, grabbing the headlines. But so what? This is America. We get to talk.

I reject any judicial interference with the right of the press to cover this trial, and Nancy, there`s been lot of interference, not just with gag orders, but the press itself has been stopped from covering this trial in many ways, and we just haven`t talked about it that much..

GRACE: Very quickly, to Anne Bremner. Anne what do you make of the jury deliberation length?

ANNE BREMNER, TRIAL ATTORNEY: That -- I`m sorry, the jury -- the link?

GRACE: Jury deliberation -- somebody`s been drinking the Kool-Aid at the courthouse! The length of jury deliberations.

BREMNER: Thank you. No, I`ve -- honest, Nancy, I haven`t. The jurors, you know, I think they`re steady as they go. She just cracks me up sometimes! They -- you know, they dressed up a little bit today, so we thought maybe they`d have a verdict. Now, they have a half day tomorrow. They`re going to be done at 11:00 and -- because it`s graduation day at the high school. It`s -- the Santa Maria Saints is the high school here. And so would they have a verdict tomorrow? We`re hoping. They seemed to be very purposeful when they left court today. No questions. No readbacks. No exhibits.

So I think they`re probably getting close to something. And no one`s out there yim-yammering anymore outside of the jury room and right outside, where they take their breaks.

GRACE: Well, Anne...

BREMNER: So maybe they can concentrate more and reach a verdict.

GRACE: Well, maybe not right now...

BREMNER: I know.

GRACE: ... but just a few hours ago, take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUESTION: Tom Mesereau is very furious that you`re even here, also furious at Reverend Jackson for showing up. He wants this thing buttoned up, to make this as quiet and professional as possible. So why are you here, when he, in fact, I`m told...

RAYMONE BAIN, MICHAEL JACKSON`S SPOKESPERSON: If Mr. Mesereau...

QUESTION: ... doesn`t want you out there?

BAIN: ... didn`t want me here, I wouldn`t be here, so don`t listen to so many rumors. I never speak to the media without talking to Tom Mesereau because I understand, quite unlike many of you, that this is a serious situation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Here`s a statement by lead attorney Tom Mesereau. "I have not authorized anyone to speak or hold any press conferences on behalf of Michael Jackson or his family. A gag order is in effect, which the defense team will continue to honor."

To Lauren Howard, here in the studio with me, psychotherapist, if there was so much to say, why didn`t Jackson say it in the courtroom?

LAUREN HOWARD, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, we know why Jackson didn`t say it in the courtroom, because Michael Jackson does not come across well. He does not come across as someone who can defend himself as being a normal, fine father and appropriate adult. So that`s why he didn`t say anything. But you know, what you`ve got here, Nancy, are all of these people who want their 15 minutes of fame. Everybody wants to be a movie star. Everybody wants to say something and talk about it all. Enough! Let the jury decide the case.

GRACE: Well, speaking of everybody wanting to be a movie star in this case, I`m stunned, Jane Velez-Mitchell, that there is a lady juror who already has a book deal in place, and nobody is moving to throw her off the jury. Now, the judge can`t just step in suisponte (ph) on his own and throw a juror off because then -- catch this -- if there`s a conviction, then Mesereau will scream to high heaven, Oh, I wanted that juror. She would have made the difference. You threw her off over my objection. Nobody asked you to. So one of the lawyers has got to make a motion to get her thrown off. What`s the lowdown on the juror writing a book? We don`t even have a verdict yet!

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Exactly. But I think it was mostly her granddaughter doing the talking and saying at the very beginning -- exactly when she was selected as a juror, she seemed to indicate that she might like to write a book, and then nothing more was discussed. And then the granddaughter took it upon herself to contact a co-author, who has apparently already started writing this book, but never contacted the juror herself.

So it`s a fine distinction. Where do you draw the line? If the juror simply made one statement, like, Oh, yes, I`d like to write a book about this, and never discussed it again, and then proceeded to go just through her duties as a juror, and the granddaughter`s off as a satellite, doing something, I don`t know if that`s grounds for throwing her off, at this point.

GRACE: To Seattle lawyer Anne Bremner. Anne, the jury comes out to have a smoke and get out of the jury deliberation room at a little patio that is right on the border...

BREMNER: Right.

GRACE: ... of where all the media are and where...

BREMNER: Right.

GRACE: ... all the Jackson fans are chanting very, very loudly. Is it true that the judge has started piping in Muzak when the jurors go out there, so they can`t hear the fans?

BREMNER: Exactly. You know, there`s a federal judge that used to do that at sidebars (INAUDIBLE) lawyers -- he didn`t like what they said, he would just -- he would put on the music and just turn up the volume and drown them out. But that`s exactly what he`s doing. You have people screaming "Michael`s innocent, Michael`s innocent," you know, "Fight, Michael, fight." And fans, they go all day, all the time, the chants. And these press conferences are right nearby, too, you know, with Jackson on Jackson, it`s either Jackson on Jesse Jackson or Jesse Jackson on Michael Jackson. This one we just talked about, and then we heard with Raymone Bain, talking about how Michael -- you know, how he`s doing and his children and his health and his innocence. You know, that`s all just got to stop, and the music is the barrier. I think it`s just great what the judge did.

GRACE: Anne Bremner, how many Michael Jackson look-alikes showed up at the courthouse today?

BREMNER: There`s so many of them. I think probably...

GRACE: Don`t these people have jobs? Don`t they have to go to work?

BREMNER: Well, you know, the main fan, B.J., that we see out there, that, you know, does the peace sign and has the loud voice and he`s the leader of everybody? He has a job now at the mall. But they gave him hours so he could be at the Jackson trial, too. So you know...

GRACE: Wait. Did you say...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Wait. Did you just say his name is B.J.?

BREMNER: Yes.

GRACE: OK.

BREMNER: And he has job at the mall, but -- he yells at everybody, but at least with me, he just gives me the peace sign. He yells "Anne" at me when I go to court, and then he just says, "You know Michael`s innocent." But a lot of people get a lot worse than that as they walk into the courtroom.

GRACE: Anne, I`m glad to hear you`re making so many friends there at the courthouse.

BREMNER: I`ve made so many new friends out here!

GRACE: You and B.J.

OK, quick break, everybody. Let`s go to tonight`s "All Points Bulletin." FBI and law enforcement across the country on the lookout for this man, Donald Crawford, take a look, wanted in connection with the 2002 sex abuse of a 12-year-old little girl. Crawford is 63, 6-2, 190 pounds, gray hair, hazel eyes. If you have information on Crawford, please call the FBI, 503-224-4181.

Local news next for some of you, but we`ll all be right back. And remember, live coverage of the Jackson verdict watch tomorrow, 3:00 to 5:00 eastern on Court TV`s "Closing Arguments." Please stay with us as we remember Staff Sergeant Joseph W. Stevens (ph), just 26 years old, an American hero.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LENO: You know, a lot of people are saying that Michael Jackson will not be able to cope with life in prison. I don`t know. Do you think that`s true? Well, I don`t think so. You see, I think you`re wrong. I mean, look. He lives in a high-security compound now, right? He doesn`t go anywhere. He doesn`t like being in the sun. He doesn`t like sleeping with females. And he enjoys taking showers with young men. He`ll fit right in!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Comedian Jay Leno on the "Tonight" show. He made an appearance in the courtroom, as well.

Welcome back, everybody. Straight back out to the Santa Maria courthouse. Jane Velez-Mitchell, huge article today in "The Wall Street Journal," and it says, "Business thriller, Jackson`s other battle, staving off financial disaster." What role does that play? I mean, a $270 million debt? No wonder he`s losing weight and he looks pale and can barely walk.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I will say that Michael Jackson is probably under more stress than anybody else on the planet right now, not only this very, very serious criminal case, but all these looming financial questions that are so complex. You had forensic accountants testifying for hours on end. And there were still people who disagreed about what exactly they were saying. But to simplify it in kind of cartoon terms, he has at least $270 million in debt, and he`s in precarious financial situation. It`s threatening two of his catalogs, the Sony ATV (ph) catalog, of which he owns half, and then his My Jack (ph) catalog, which is his songs and his publishing rights. And we`ll have to see what happens, especially if he`s convicted.

GRACE: To Lauren Howard, psychotherapist. You know, I was reading this article, and it outlines how Jackson spent thousands of dollars to maintain his menagerie of zoo animals, the lavish spending, the spending sprees. What does that suggest in relation to this trial?

HOWARD: Well, this is a man of great impulses, great, gaping holes that he needs to fill with, you know, sugar shopping, drinking, dropping, whatever. Molesting. I mean, this is somebody whose self-identity is very thwarted and not well adjusted. And so he`s trying to fill -- I mean, who has a Neverland, you know? But so it`s the least of his problems are his money problems, at this point. His future -- if nothing else, he needs to -- if he`s found innocent, he needs to reel it back in and lead a smaller life.

GRACE: And very quickly, Anne Bremner, only a few seconds left. His appearance has actually changed drastically since day one of the trial. Today, Raymone Bain went to great lengths to tell us how healthy he is. He`s been to the hospital four times in one trial.

BREMNER: Right. You had pajama day during jury selection, and then now...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: How does he look?

BREMNER: Well, he`s -- I mean, skinny. He looks sickly. He looks stricken. He looks like there`s palpable fear. And that`s -- that`s how he looks. And it doesn`t take a doctor to look at him and say there`s something wrong with him in terms of his health. You know, you can see it with your own eyes, your non-lyin` eyes, you know?

GRACE: We will be right back with verdict watch tomorrow night. The jury`s still in jury deliberations. They`re only deliberating until 11:00 AM tomorrow. The jurors have graduation celebrations to go to. Don`t know how likely it is there will be a verdict tomorrow, but we will be there.

Very quickly, let`s go straight down to Miami and WIOD radio reporter Al Warnell. That`s right, we`re talking about the two pilots that got a tankful and then tried to fly a plane. Al, verdict. Tell me about it quickly.

AL WARNELL, WIOD: Well, the jury didn`t buy the notion that they were in control -- or they were not in control of the airplane at the time that they were in the cockpit, and they were found guilty today.

GRACE: Al, the jury never found out that one of them had a prior DUI, did they.

WARNELL: No, they didn`t.

GRACE: Al, what do you think the sentence is going to be? Are they in custody? When will they be sentenced?

WARNELL: Well, immediately after they were found guilty, they were processed, fingerprinted in the courtroom, and then handcuffed and taken off to the local jail.

GRACE: What was the response in court, Al?

WARNELL: Well, what happened was the fact that Mr. Hughes was more emotional than Mr. Cloyd (ph). He actually started weeping in court, and he was embraced by his relatives, his wife, as well as Mr. Cloyd`s wife, before they were processed. And they walked out of the jail (SIC) with a couple of officers, headed to the jail.

GRACE: Al, you said the sentence was five years behind bars, maximum?

WARNELL: Well, the maximum sentence, five years behind bars. But I spoke to the prosecutor today. She says that she`s going to ask for jail time. I think the judge is going to actually sentence them to some jail time because he`s going to say, you know, This -- we want to make this an example, plus the fact that you endangered 124 people and three flight attendants.

GRACE: Right. Al, it`s my understanding in the Florida jurisdiction that you basically have to do about 85 percent of your jail time. So 85 percent of five, we`re looking at four years and two months. What do you think was the biggest factor in the jury`s guilty verdict?

WARNELL: I think the fact that when the...

GRACE: That they were on video drinking until 4:30 AM?

WARNELL: Well, that, and the fact, too, that during the closing arguments, the prosecutor implied, or she stated that they did a pre-flight check for 30 minutes prior to the tug pushing the aircraft away from the gate. So they essentially were in control. Also, too, when the arresting officer questioned them, they asked them who was in control of the airplane. They said, We were.

GRACE: So you think that`s what turned the tide? I mean, this jet was full of innocent passengers with no idea security had just caught their pilots smelling like booze, going through the security line.

WARNELL: True. Also during closing arguments, the prosecutor laid out 12 mugs and -- before the jury and basically implied the fact that these pilots had drunk that much beer. Actually, it was 14 bottles of beer on the wall.

GRACE: Al Warnell with us, WIOD radio, joining us out of Miami.

Everybody, quick break. As we go to break, tonight, I want to remind you that after becoming a victim of violent crime myself, prosecuting violent felonies, I have an objection about how Lady Justice tricked and treated in our justice system. Part of the proceeds from "Objection" go to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. We`ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. We at NANCY GRACE want very much to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Take a look at 15- year-old Brittney Huff. She went missing from her home, Grass Valley, California, April 19. If you have any information on Brittney, please contact the Nevada County sheriff, 530-265-7880 or go on line, Beyondmissing.com. Please help us.

Very quickly, out to Santa Maria, California. Jane Velez-Mitchell, prediction?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. I don`t have a crystal ball, Nancy. You know, the O.J. jurors deliberated just a couple hours and came back with an acquittal. But the Blake jurors deliberated for several days and came back with acquittal.

GRACE: In this case. This case.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, there are people who say the fact that they haven`t just taken Tom Mesereau`s suggestions...

GRACE: OK...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... discount the whole thing because the family`s a pack of liars.

GRACE: Let me quickly go to Debra Opri. Prediction?

OPRI: After her spiel, I predict you`re going to tell me to wrap. I really think it`s to easy to call. I`m hoping by Friday, at this point. I thought it would have been today. I`m still holding out for an acquittal across the board.

GRACE: Anne Bremner?

BREMNER: I say -- I stand by what I`ve said, which is split the baby, Nancy, which is a conviction on the molestations and the alcohol. And I think it`s any day now. I thought it was going to be today. They`re all dressed up. But I also thought so at any...

GRACE: Split the baby. That`s the prediction. Got it. Daniel Horowitz?

HOROWITZ: Nancy, prosecutor Ron Zonen put perfume on a pig. But that`s going to (INAUDIBLE) The stink of those liars is going to come through. Not guilty this Friday.

GRACE: OK. Lauren Howard, 15 seconds.

HOWARD: I think Anne Bremner`s right. I hope Anne Bremner`s right. But not guilty.

GRACE: OK, Jane Velez-Mitchell, I love you dearly. Second strike.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hung jury.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: OK, she`s out on a limb. She`s being firm. Hung jury. Well, you know what, Jane? You`ve been in the courtroom from the get-go, friend. Thank you, everybody. What? Oh, I`ve got 15 seconds left. What?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK, Hung jury, but I think that there could be a conviction on the two counts that involve the actual accuser.

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: I`m going to give you another shot tomorrow night. Jane Velez Mitchell with "Celebrity Justice."

I want to thank all of my guests tonight, but my biggest thank you is to you for being with us tonight, inviting all of us into your home. Coming up, headlines from around the world, Larry on CNN. I`m Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. I hope to see you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 o`clock sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.

END


Aired June 8, 2005 - 20:00:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news in the case of an 18-year- old Alabama girl who went on her senior trip to Aruba and vanished into thin air. Tonight, two men suspected in the case court-ordered to remain behind bars. Could Natalee Holloway still be alive somewhere in Aruba?
And jury deliberations rage on in the Michael Jackson child sex trial. We are on a verdict watch.

And the jury speaks in the case of two jet pilots on trial in Florida for drinking all night and then crash-landing in the cockpit of a jumbo jet full of passengers.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. And I want to thank you for being with us tonight.

Two jet pilots on trial for getting a snootful (ph), then crash- landing in the cockpit of a jetliner, have a date with Lady Justice in a Florida courtroom today. A Florida jury handing down a guilty verdict.

And it`s day four in the Jackson jury deliberations in California. We are in a verdict watch in the Michael Jackson child sex trial.

But first, to Aruba. Eighteen-year-old Natalee Halloway still missing, day ten. Tonight, two men, Anthony John and Abraham Jones, ordered behind bars, as evidence appears to mount that they were involved with Natalee`s disappearance. Could the girl be alive? Natalee, where are you?

Tonight, in Aruba, we`ll be bringing the lawyers of both the suspects to you. With us tonight, Noraina Pietersz and Chris LeJuez; in Santa Maria, California, defense attorney Debra Opri; in San Francisco, defense attorney Daniel Horowitz; in New York, psychotherapist Lauren Howard.

But first, let`s go to Aruba and CNN correspondent Karl Penhaul. Welcome, Karl. There was an appearance today. I would have thought a court appearance. But wasn`t it there in the police station? What was the point of the hearing?

KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It was in the police station, Nancy. And it was a closed-door appearance. There was no media nor any of the relatives allowed into that hearing.

The judge went to the police station to hear evidence from prosecutors and make a decision whether they were able to remand these two suspects in custody for a further eight days. The judge gave the affirmative on that. And the two suspects will remain in separate police cells on opposite sides of the island for the coming eight days.

GRACE: Karl, you said separate police cells on opposite sides of the island. They`re not even in the same jail house?

PENHAUL: They`re not in the same jail house. One`s being held in a police station on the northern part of the island. And the other, we understand, on the eastern side of the island. This seems to be a procedural matter here on the island of Aruba. And the prosecutors and police are taking no chances that the men can confer in any shape or form. It`s a procedural matter, so that they don`t compare notes.

GRACE: A question regarding the two men. Their families were not allowed at the hearing today?

PENHAUL: Their families weren`t allowed inside the hearing. The mother of one of the defendants, of Abraham Jones, appeared at the courtroom expecting her son to appear there and for her to catch a glimpse. She wasn`t able to see him there, and she maintains that he is innocent, that her son wouldn`t do anything like that. Also, his girlfriend was there, and she maintains that she was with her boyfriend on the night that Natalee Holloway disappeared.

We`ve also talked to the mother of Mickey John, the second suspect. And she also has been talking to us a little about his character.

GRACE: Well, Karl Penhaul, I understand the girlfriend of one of the suspects says she was with him the night before -- they went to a concert, I believe -- and that he reported to work the next morning. But just last night, his then-attorney said that he was between assignments, that he didn`t have a place to report to.

PENHAUL: What we actually have been told by the attorney, and what my recollection of last night`s conversation is, Nancy, is that the assignment as security guard at the Allegro Hotel was due to finish later in the week, either Tuesday or Wednesday, because the Allegro is up for refurbishment and that the security company there is a contract company, not permanently assigned to that hotel. So they would have either then been moved out of the security company altogether or that contract would then have been assigned somewhere else.

GRACE: Last night, we met the defense counsel for one of the men, Abraham Jones. That attorney, Chris LeJuez. Tonight, we are joined by the attorney for the other young man. With us tonight, Noraina Pietersz. She is defense attorney for Antonius John.

Welcome ma`am. Thank you for being with us.

NORAINA PIETERSZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, Nancy, thank you.

GRACE: Tell me what happened at the hearing today.

PIETERSZ: Well, this morning, my client, Mr. John, Antonius John is his name, he had to appear in front of the prosecutor, also in front of the judge of instructions. As well, the prosecutor decided that, according to her, there has to be done more investigation. So she decided to prolong the detention with eight more days.

GRACE: Now, how long can your client be held behind bars while prosecutors get their case together?

PIETERSZ: Can you repeat that question, please?

GRACE: Yes. How long can your client be held in jail while prosecutors get evidence against them?

PIETERSZ: Well, actually, at this moment, he`s not in jail. He`s in police detention. He`s by the police station. And basically, he could be held as long as ten days.

The prosecutor has the authority to prolong his detention with eight days. She`s authorized to do that by law. There`s no legal problem with that. So if within those eight days there`s no hard evidence, or at least more indication of guilt, which at this moment there`s very little indication or none, at all, according to the defense, she will have to ask, in case she wants to keep them longer in detention, she will have to ask the judge of instruction`s permission for that.

GRACE: With us, Noraina Pietersz. She is the attorney for Antonius John.

Ma`am, you`re saying he`s not in jail. Is he free to leave?

PIETERSZ: Excuse me? I cannot hear you.

GRACE: Is your client free to leave?

PIETERSZ: He`s not free to leave. At this moment, not. He will have to stay by the police station until next Wednesday.

GRACE: Ma`am, when you say he is by the police station, what kind of a structure is he in?

PIETERSZ: Well, it`s not -- actually, it`s an administration office. And in the back, they have several cells. And the suspect will kept in those cells for the ten days. No longer than that.

GRACE: So he`s in a cell. He can`t leave. Police are holding him. But you say he`s not in jail?

PIETERSZ: Well, the thing is that the judge of instructions, when we appeared in front of him, he decided that a detention of my client was legal. And while he did that, that means that he will have, for now, stay there by the police station.

Of course, there are legal measures that we can take as defense. But we have to see if that will be practical, yes or no. Since the maximum time he will have to stay there are ten days, for the prosecutor to prolong that or to ask for prolongation, we will have to appear in front of the judge of instructions, and he will have to gave his (UNINTELLIGIBLE) for that.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: OK, let me quickly go to defense attorney Daniel Horowitz standing by. Daniel Horowitz, this is basically bass-ackwards from the way that it works in America. Because you don`t arrest somebody and put them in a cell of an administration building by the jail unless you`ve got a case against them. You don`t get arrested while the state, while the prosecutor, tries to put together a case.

DANIEL HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Exactly, Nancy. And there`s a problem with this, also. It focuses on these two men so much, and it doesn`t give them the freedom to be out and prove their innocence or gather evidence on their own behalf.

You know, Nancy, these guys could be patsies. I`m concerned about those three rich kids who were with this young lady and supposedly dropped her off at a hotel and then she just vanishes. I don`t like the idea of the focus on these two guys alone.

GRACE: Let me go back to Karl Penhaul on that very issue. Karl Penhaul, CNN correspondent, is with us in Aruba. Karl, there are murmurings to that exact issue, that these two security guards are being targeted while the actual guys that were with her, that took her away from the restaurant, have been set free.

Explain. Why are these two being held? Did they run into the girl after the other three let her go? I mean, why are they being held and the other three have been let go? Is it true they are from rich or influential families, while these two are not?

PENHAUL: That`s the question on a lot of people`s lips right now, Nancy. We`ve been talking around. We`ve also been talking to the suspects` families. A number of answers to that.

The three young men last seen in the company of Natalee Holloway outside Carlos and Charlie`s, we understand, were never arrested, were never detained by police. Yes, they were interviewed. But the police in a press conference earlier this week have said that no evidence in terms of the car that they all drove away in was confiscated at any stage.

Meanwhile, the two suspects, three of their vehicles have been confiscated. One of the suspect`s mother`s cars, a cousin`s car, I believe, and one of the cars belonging to one of the suspects. Those are being looked at, even though there`s nothing, apparently, according to the defense attorneys, in any witness statement to suggest that Natalee Holloway was ever seen in the company of these two suspects, let alone got in their cars.

As far as the identities of the three people, the young men that are being named or were named as persons of interest, indeed, they do seem to be from influential families, certainly middle-class families, a little difficult in this context to spell out exactly whom they are.

But what the mother of Mickey John -- Antonius John, but Mickey his mother calls him -- what she says is that here what is at stake, or one part of the problem is, is that there`s a race issue here, because the people, the three young men are of influential, middle-class, largely white families, descendents of the Dutch colonizers that once came here, whereas the two suspects are from black immigrant families who maybe have been here for many years but nevertheless are still regarded as immigrants.

And so the mother of one of the defendants says that she believes that there is a color, a race issue here at stake, as well.

GRACE: Very quickly, Karl Penhaul, before we go to break, let me just put race and money out of the picture. And tell me this: The cars belonging to the three guys that took her from the hotel have been searched and released. What about the cars belonging to these two security guards? Have the cars been released or do the police still have them impounded?

PENHAUL: The police, we understand, still have them impounded. We talked to Mickey John`s mother just a few hours ago. Her car is still impounded. She has been unable to go to work for the last three days. She has no transport.

GRACE: We`re about to go to break.

But very quickly, to attorney Debra Opri, if they still have these guys` cars, now that`s a whole different matter. If they release the other car, they`re holding onto this one, that suggests maybe they found some forensic evidence in it.

DEBRA OPRI, JACKSON FAMILY LAWYER: You know, Nancy, look at it this way. I don`t believe in this instance with the eyes of the world watching Aruba that there`s going to be any preferential treatment. I do believe, if they follow the leads that they`ve gotten, or including the forensic evidence, it may lead to, in fact, Aruba being a way station for some sort of activity in drugs or prostitution movement to 17 miles away to a country called Colombia. And I think that`s going to be more evident in future days.

GRACE: Quick break, everybody. We are live in Aruba with the defense attorneys for both of these young men, men that are being held in suspicion of the disappearance of an 18-year-old American girl from Alabama. She was on her high school senior trip, Natalee Holloway. Please stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CYNTHIA JONES, MOTHER OF ONE OF SUSPECTS: Abraham is a very quiet guy. No child is a saint, but Abraham goes to his work. He goes out with his girlfriend. Marta (ph) was (UNINTELLIGIBLE) you know, he goes to the place. Yes, you understand?

But God do it so, God put it so, that that night when this thing happened my child was in his house with his woman. But God is above. God is above. God knows my son is innocent. And I will go down for it. My son is innocent.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CYNTHIA DE GRAF, SUSPECT`S GIRLFRIEND: We went to the soul beach festival together. Me, Abraham and my friend, Bernadine (ph).

QUESTION: So you know he wasn`t there?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He wasn`t there. He was with me. He was with Bernadine (ph). We went and picked up our daughter by my mom. We went home. He was even sick. He got up in the morning, went to work. And now they`re going to put it on him? Come on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back, everybody.

Her boyfriend is in custody tonight along with another man in connection with the disappearance of 18-year-old Natalee Holloway, an Alabama student on her high school senior trip. She disappeared about ten days ago. This is a shot of her and her mother, her family distraught, vowing not to leave Aruba without Natalee.

Tonight, let`s go straight back down to Aruba. Joining us, Abraham Jones` lawyer, Chris LeJuez.

Thank you for being with us again, Chris.

Still with us, CNN correspondent Karl Penhaul. Very quickly to Karl Penhaul, Karl, did either of the three young men who took Natalee from the bar that night ever tell police that they had slept with her, had sex with her?

PENHAUL: We haven`t heard that directly because the evidence here and the witness statements here are highly confidential. The defense attorneys have seen some of those witness statements, I understand. But I do understand that, in the file, there are not three witness statements. I understand there are possibly only two witness statements.

We do hear from police sources, however, that the three men, at least one of them, says that they did go to the beach with Natalee and had some fun. The interpretation of that, I`m not aware of, Nancy.

GRACE: Now, is this coming from the defense attorneys?

PENHAUL: That "fun" bit of information was from a police source, that the three men or one of the three men, at least, had said that they`d gone to the beach with Natalee after leaving Carlos and Charlie`s and "had some fun." They didn`t specify what "had some fun" meant, but the beach where the two had gone or where the group had gone have been searched. That, I believe, is called Arashi Beach.

GRACE: You know, Debra Opri, I have been assigned several rape-murder cases, all right? You handle felony prosecutions, you`re going to get one of those, at least one. Normally, the guy that had sex with the woman just before her death is somehow involved in the death. It`s just common sense, OK?

If that is in the defense file, from one of these three guys, this is a very, very unusual arrest of two other suspects. What do you think, Debra?

OPRI: I have to tell you, I just don`t think this is a rape-murder case. I don`t. My gut is telling me this is part of a transport, a prostitution business with the country of Colombia. I hear too many stories. I know too many people who have gone down to Aruba...

GRACE: Oh, good God, Debra, you heard a story? That is the basis of this theory?

OPRI: Nancy, Nancy, let me finish. There are many instances where women will go down there, that age, that type, blonde-haired, and they are drugged and transported to Colombia, period, bottom line. Those are what the investigation and the facts tell you, and those are the stories.

Now, looking at a potential rape-murder, we don`t have any evidence. We don`t have anything to give us that result. That`s just your opinion based upon your experience.

I believe, because there`s no evidence at this point in time, no body, I`m going to pull away from a murder and go with kidnapping and transport to Colombia.

GRACE: Well, Debra, I don`t entirely disagree with you.

Hey, Elizabeth, can we show...

OPRI: No, I know. We`re in agreement.

GRACE: Can you show us the picture of the island, Elizabeth?

I mean, so far, Karl Penhaul, the island is 19.6 miles long. It`s six miles wide. It has been searched by police, by the FBI, by the citizens. They were given a half a day holiday to look for Natalee. And you would think that in this geographic area, if a body was there, it would have been found, although it`s sitting right in the middle of the ocean. There`s that possibility, too, Karl.

PENHAUL: Well, there have been a number of developments on the search front, in fact, Nancy. Because the FBI specialist dive team, you`ll remember that that was requested, and that was going to be brought in. It was brought in, but those divers never dived. And those divers have now left, according to our FBI contact. And the reason they left is because no area was ever pinpointed for them to search.

We`ve also talked to Aruba search-and-rescue teams. And they say today they have been doing their own thing, basically. Normally, they take the lead from the government in order to pinpoint certain areas where they can search. But the government ministries are no longer providing them with any area to search because most of the public areas have now been searched. So that throws up the question, where to search now?

GRACE: Karl, wait a minute. You told me the divers left without putting a toe in the water? Is that correct?

PENHAUL: Not a toe, not a flipper, Nancy. They haven`t been in the water.

GRACE: OK, wait a minute. Wait. Wait. And you`re saying it`s because they don`t know which part of the beach to search? Why don`t they try starting with the beach where the guys say they took her?

PENHAUL: Again, I`m not privy to that kind of information. But what one of the search-and-rescue team members did explain is that he would have expected the dive teams to be diving off some of the craggy shorelines where the currents are strongest, the currents that are being channeled in through that narrow stretch of sea between the southern coast of Aruba and the northern coast of Venezuela.

But again, they`re also here as guests of Aruba. They can`t operate independently. And the FBI contacts have said it`s because the government of Aruba hasn`t pinpointed the areas where they should be searching. That`s why they didn`t go in the water. That`s why they`ve now left, Nancy.

GRACE: Quick break, everybody. We`re going back live to Aruba.

But first, to "Trial Tracking." Tonight, as you know, we have been looking for Patrick Welsh. Welsh, the 22-year-old college student who disappeared in April during a trip to New York City. His body was found last week in New York`s Hudson River. His family was contacted just last night.

Patrick was a writing major. He had planned to graduate in December. No word on Patrick`s cause of death. As of tonight, what happened to Patrick remains a mystery.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Natalee Holloway went on her senior trip. She`s a beautiful Alabama girl. She looks like a beauty queen, full scholarship to University of Alabama. She has not been seen since.

Welcome back. Let`s go straight to Aruba. Two men in custody tonight.

Let`s go to Chris LeJuez. He`s defense counsel for Abraham Jones.

Chris, do you have any idea what the evidence is against your client?

CHRIS LEJUEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The evidence is that someone said that they have seen my client around that hour, the hour of 2:30 in the morning, when Natalee probably disappeared, down at the pool area of the hotel. That is basically all the evidence that they do have.

GRACE: And what is your client`s alibi?

LEJUEZ: My client states very categorically that he has been with his wife and a friend at a sun beach soul festival. He met people there. After that, he went to pick up his son at his mother`s house. They took the friend home, and they went home to sleep.

The next morning, he went to work at around 8 o`clock. So he has a perfect alibi. He has several witnesses to the fact.

GRACE: Chris LeJuez, what is the penalty, the maximum penalty in Aruba for murder?

LEJUEZ: For murder, the maximum would be 20-to-life. I can assure you that we have -- I have not seen any kind of evidence that murder has been committed (UNINTELLIGIBLE) that somebody is dead anywhere, with regard to this case.

GRACE: Thank you, sir.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAY LENO, HOST, "TONIGHT" SHOW: This trial has been taking up so much of Michael`s time, he`s been neglecting his duties at the Neverland ranch. In fact -- in fact (INAUDIBLE) I don`t know, has anyone even checked the traps at the Neverland ranch? Have we -- Alan (ph), can we see -- can you check the traps at the Neverland ranch? Oh, look at that! Yes, see? There you go right there.

(LAUGHTER)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: I hope the jury knows they`re not supposed to be watching. That`s comedian Jay Leno on the "Tonight" show. He testified for the defense at the Jackson trial, but many court watchers believe he turned into a state`s witness on cross-exam.

Welcome back, everybody. Let`s go straight out to Jane Velez- Mitchell, standing by at the courthouse, with "Celebrity Justice." Jane, what`s going on in the jury deliberation room?

JANE-VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": Well, I have to tell you, it was another crazy day here in the Jackson trial. The jury deliberated all day long, did not even ask one question of the court.

But the big question outside court is, Who is in charge in the Jackson camp? Because there seems to be a lot of mixed signals and there seems to be some sort of tug-of-war developing. We`ve been hearing for days now that defense attorney Tom Mesereau was not happy with the Reverend Jesse Jackson appearing here at court and holding news conferences while the jury was deliberating. But he was back again today, and this time, the Reverend Jackson said that the jury was being subjected to psychological warfare because of all the media reports. Then Jackson publicist and spokeswoman Raymone Bain held another news conference. She said she wanted to dispel a lot of false rumors.

Well, shortly after that, there was a buzz. We heard word that a statement was coming down. The media converged. Tom Mesereau issued a statement saying he has not authorized anyone to hold any news conferences and reminding everybody that there is a gag order in place. And then a statement came from Michael Jackson and the Jackson family, essentially echoing that, saying that the only people authorized to speak are the attorneys.

So it seems to have come full circle. It seems clear that Mesereau and the family don`t want these news conferences. We`ll have to see what happens tomorrow.

GRACE: To Debra Opri -- does that leave Raymone Bain out in the cold? We`ve been getting news conferences from her every day. There was a long one today.

DEBRA OPRI, ATTORNEY FOR JACKSON`S PARENTS: Well, I absolutely respect Tom Mesereau. He`s the boss. And the Jackson family -- it`s their lives. I`m telling you, I`m not speaking for Tom Mesereau. Tom Mesereau and Raymone Bain and the Jackson family know who Tom Mesereau is talking about. And they should follow his advice very closely, in my opinion.

GRACE: Well, I`ve got the two suspects on the screen right now. Raymone Bain and Jesse Jackson are the only people that have been speaking out. The family has remained fairly quiet. These two have been at the courthouse speaking quite often.

You know, let me quickly go to Daniel Horowitz. Dan, does it muddle up a case when family and friends blab to a microphone?

DANIEL HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I don`t think so, Nancy. I mean, we do have a 1st Amendment. There`s some aspect of public education by having some sort of discourse. We`ve got Debbie Opri who is advocating for Michael Jackson, but she`s a family attorney. I don`t know how Raymone Bain gets around the order, but she has for months. And Jesse Jackson`s been over the top, grabbing the headlines. But so what? This is America. We get to talk.

I reject any judicial interference with the right of the press to cover this trial, and Nancy, there`s been lot of interference, not just with gag orders, but the press itself has been stopped from covering this trial in many ways, and we just haven`t talked about it that much..

GRACE: Very quickly, to Anne Bremner. Anne what do you make of the jury deliberation length?

ANNE BREMNER, TRIAL ATTORNEY: That -- I`m sorry, the jury -- the link?

GRACE: Jury deliberation -- somebody`s been drinking the Kool-Aid at the courthouse! The length of jury deliberations.

BREMNER: Thank you. No, I`ve -- honest, Nancy, I haven`t. The jurors, you know, I think they`re steady as they go. She just cracks me up sometimes! They -- you know, they dressed up a little bit today, so we thought maybe they`d have a verdict. Now, they have a half day tomorrow. They`re going to be done at 11:00 and -- because it`s graduation day at the high school. It`s -- the Santa Maria Saints is the high school here. And so would they have a verdict tomorrow? We`re hoping. They seemed to be very purposeful when they left court today. No questions. No readbacks. No exhibits.

So I think they`re probably getting close to something. And no one`s out there yim-yammering anymore outside of the jury room and right outside, where they take their breaks.

GRACE: Well, Anne...

BREMNER: So maybe they can concentrate more and reach a verdict.

GRACE: Well, maybe not right now...

BREMNER: I know.

GRACE: ... but just a few hours ago, take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUESTION: Tom Mesereau is very furious that you`re even here, also furious at Reverend Jackson for showing up. He wants this thing buttoned up, to make this as quiet and professional as possible. So why are you here, when he, in fact, I`m told...

RAYMONE BAIN, MICHAEL JACKSON`S SPOKESPERSON: If Mr. Mesereau...

QUESTION: ... doesn`t want you out there?

BAIN: ... didn`t want me here, I wouldn`t be here, so don`t listen to so many rumors. I never speak to the media without talking to Tom Mesereau because I understand, quite unlike many of you, that this is a serious situation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Here`s a statement by lead attorney Tom Mesereau. "I have not authorized anyone to speak or hold any press conferences on behalf of Michael Jackson or his family. A gag order is in effect, which the defense team will continue to honor."

To Lauren Howard, here in the studio with me, psychotherapist, if there was so much to say, why didn`t Jackson say it in the courtroom?

LAUREN HOWARD, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, we know why Jackson didn`t say it in the courtroom, because Michael Jackson does not come across well. He does not come across as someone who can defend himself as being a normal, fine father and appropriate adult. So that`s why he didn`t say anything. But you know, what you`ve got here, Nancy, are all of these people who want their 15 minutes of fame. Everybody wants to be a movie star. Everybody wants to say something and talk about it all. Enough! Let the jury decide the case.

GRACE: Well, speaking of everybody wanting to be a movie star in this case, I`m stunned, Jane Velez-Mitchell, that there is a lady juror who already has a book deal in place, and nobody is moving to throw her off the jury. Now, the judge can`t just step in suisponte (ph) on his own and throw a juror off because then -- catch this -- if there`s a conviction, then Mesereau will scream to high heaven, Oh, I wanted that juror. She would have made the difference. You threw her off over my objection. Nobody asked you to. So one of the lawyers has got to make a motion to get her thrown off. What`s the lowdown on the juror writing a book? We don`t even have a verdict yet!

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Exactly. But I think it was mostly her granddaughter doing the talking and saying at the very beginning -- exactly when she was selected as a juror, she seemed to indicate that she might like to write a book, and then nothing more was discussed. And then the granddaughter took it upon herself to contact a co-author, who has apparently already started writing this book, but never contacted the juror herself.

So it`s a fine distinction. Where do you draw the line? If the juror simply made one statement, like, Oh, yes, I`d like to write a book about this, and never discussed it again, and then proceeded to go just through her duties as a juror, and the granddaughter`s off as a satellite, doing something, I don`t know if that`s grounds for throwing her off, at this point.

GRACE: To Seattle lawyer Anne Bremner. Anne, the jury comes out to have a smoke and get out of the jury deliberation room at a little patio that is right on the border...

BREMNER: Right.

GRACE: ... of where all the media are and where...

BREMNER: Right.

GRACE: ... all the Jackson fans are chanting very, very loudly. Is it true that the judge has started piping in Muzak when the jurors go out there, so they can`t hear the fans?

BREMNER: Exactly. You know, there`s a federal judge that used to do that at sidebars (INAUDIBLE) lawyers -- he didn`t like what they said, he would just -- he would put on the music and just turn up the volume and drown them out. But that`s exactly what he`s doing. You have people screaming "Michael`s innocent, Michael`s innocent," you know, "Fight, Michael, fight." And fans, they go all day, all the time, the chants. And these press conferences are right nearby, too, you know, with Jackson on Jackson, it`s either Jackson on Jesse Jackson or Jesse Jackson on Michael Jackson. This one we just talked about, and then we heard with Raymone Bain, talking about how Michael -- you know, how he`s doing and his children and his health and his innocence. You know, that`s all just got to stop, and the music is the barrier. I think it`s just great what the judge did.

GRACE: Anne Bremner, how many Michael Jackson look-alikes showed up at the courthouse today?

BREMNER: There`s so many of them. I think probably...

GRACE: Don`t these people have jobs? Don`t they have to go to work?

BREMNER: Well, you know, the main fan, B.J., that we see out there, that, you know, does the peace sign and has the loud voice and he`s the leader of everybody? He has a job now at the mall. But they gave him hours so he could be at the Jackson trial, too. So you know...

GRACE: Wait. Did you say...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Wait. Did you just say his name is B.J.?

BREMNER: Yes.

GRACE: OK.

BREMNER: And he has job at the mall, but -- he yells at everybody, but at least with me, he just gives me the peace sign. He yells "Anne" at me when I go to court, and then he just says, "You know Michael`s innocent." But a lot of people get a lot worse than that as they walk into the courtroom.

GRACE: Anne, I`m glad to hear you`re making so many friends there at the courthouse.

BREMNER: I`ve made so many new friends out here!

GRACE: You and B.J.

OK, quick break, everybody. Let`s go to tonight`s "All Points Bulletin." FBI and law enforcement across the country on the lookout for this man, Donald Crawford, take a look, wanted in connection with the 2002 sex abuse of a 12-year-old little girl. Crawford is 63, 6-2, 190 pounds, gray hair, hazel eyes. If you have information on Crawford, please call the FBI, 503-224-4181.

Local news next for some of you, but we`ll all be right back. And remember, live coverage of the Jackson verdict watch tomorrow, 3:00 to 5:00 eastern on Court TV`s "Closing Arguments." Please stay with us as we remember Staff Sergeant Joseph W. Stevens (ph), just 26 years old, an American hero.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LENO: You know, a lot of people are saying that Michael Jackson will not be able to cope with life in prison. I don`t know. Do you think that`s true? Well, I don`t think so. You see, I think you`re wrong. I mean, look. He lives in a high-security compound now, right? He doesn`t go anywhere. He doesn`t like being in the sun. He doesn`t like sleeping with females. And he enjoys taking showers with young men. He`ll fit right in!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Comedian Jay Leno on the "Tonight" show. He made an appearance in the courtroom, as well.

Welcome back, everybody. Straight back out to the Santa Maria courthouse. Jane Velez-Mitchell, huge article today in "The Wall Street Journal," and it says, "Business thriller, Jackson`s other battle, staving off financial disaster." What role does that play? I mean, a $270 million debt? No wonder he`s losing weight and he looks pale and can barely walk.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I will say that Michael Jackson is probably under more stress than anybody else on the planet right now, not only this very, very serious criminal case, but all these looming financial questions that are so complex. You had forensic accountants testifying for hours on end. And there were still people who disagreed about what exactly they were saying. But to simplify it in kind of cartoon terms, he has at least $270 million in debt, and he`s in precarious financial situation. It`s threatening two of his catalogs, the Sony ATV (ph) catalog, of which he owns half, and then his My Jack (ph) catalog, which is his songs and his publishing rights. And we`ll have to see what happens, especially if he`s convicted.

GRACE: To Lauren Howard, psychotherapist. You know, I was reading this article, and it outlines how Jackson spent thousands of dollars to maintain his menagerie of zoo animals, the lavish spending, the spending sprees. What does that suggest in relation to this trial?

HOWARD: Well, this is a man of great impulses, great, gaping holes that he needs to fill with, you know, sugar shopping, drinking, dropping, whatever. Molesting. I mean, this is somebody whose self-identity is very thwarted and not well adjusted. And so he`s trying to fill -- I mean, who has a Neverland, you know? But so it`s the least of his problems are his money problems, at this point. His future -- if nothing else, he needs to -- if he`s found innocent, he needs to reel it back in and lead a smaller life.

GRACE: And very quickly, Anne Bremner, only a few seconds left. His appearance has actually changed drastically since day one of the trial. Today, Raymone Bain went to great lengths to tell us how healthy he is. He`s been to the hospital four times in one trial.

BREMNER: Right. You had pajama day during jury selection, and then now...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: How does he look?

BREMNER: Well, he`s -- I mean, skinny. He looks sickly. He looks stricken. He looks like there`s palpable fear. And that`s -- that`s how he looks. And it doesn`t take a doctor to look at him and say there`s something wrong with him in terms of his health. You know, you can see it with your own eyes, your non-lyin` eyes, you know?

GRACE: We will be right back with verdict watch tomorrow night. The jury`s still in jury deliberations. They`re only deliberating until 11:00 AM tomorrow. The jurors have graduation celebrations to go to. Don`t know how likely it is there will be a verdict tomorrow, but we will be there.

Very quickly, let`s go straight down to Miami and WIOD radio reporter Al Warnell. That`s right, we`re talking about the two pilots that got a tankful and then tried to fly a plane. Al, verdict. Tell me about it quickly.

AL WARNELL, WIOD: Well, the jury didn`t buy the notion that they were in control -- or they were not in control of the airplane at the time that they were in the cockpit, and they were found guilty today.

GRACE: Al, the jury never found out that one of them had a prior DUI, did they.

WARNELL: No, they didn`t.

GRACE: Al, what do you think the sentence is going to be? Are they in custody? When will they be sentenced?

WARNELL: Well, immediately after they were found guilty, they were processed, fingerprinted in the courtroom, and then handcuffed and taken off to the local jail.

GRACE: What was the response in court, Al?

WARNELL: Well, what happened was the fact that Mr. Hughes was more emotional than Mr. Cloyd (ph). He actually started weeping in court, and he was embraced by his relatives, his wife, as well as Mr. Cloyd`s wife, before they were processed. And they walked out of the jail (SIC) with a couple of officers, headed to the jail.

GRACE: Al, you said the sentence was five years behind bars, maximum?

WARNELL: Well, the maximum sentence, five years behind bars. But I spoke to the prosecutor today. She says that she`s going to ask for jail time. I think the judge is going to actually sentence them to some jail time because he`s going to say, you know, This -- we want to make this an example, plus the fact that you endangered 124 people and three flight attendants.

GRACE: Right. Al, it`s my understanding in the Florida jurisdiction that you basically have to do about 85 percent of your jail time. So 85 percent of five, we`re looking at four years and two months. What do you think was the biggest factor in the jury`s guilty verdict?

WARNELL: I think the fact that when the...

GRACE: That they were on video drinking until 4:30 AM?

WARNELL: Well, that, and the fact, too, that during the closing arguments, the prosecutor implied, or she stated that they did a pre-flight check for 30 minutes prior to the tug pushing the aircraft away from the gate. So they essentially were in control. Also, too, when the arresting officer questioned them, they asked them who was in control of the airplane. They said, We were.

GRACE: So you think that`s what turned the tide? I mean, this jet was full of innocent passengers with no idea security had just caught their pilots smelling like booze, going through the security line.

WARNELL: True. Also during closing arguments, the prosecutor laid out 12 mugs and -- before the jury and basically implied the fact that these pilots had drunk that much beer. Actually, it was 14 bottles of beer on the wall.

GRACE: Al Warnell with us, WIOD radio, joining us out of Miami.

Everybody, quick break. As we go to break, tonight, I want to remind you that after becoming a victim of violent crime myself, prosecuting violent felonies, I have an objection about how Lady Justice tricked and treated in our justice system. Part of the proceeds from "Objection" go to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. We`ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. We at NANCY GRACE want very much to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Take a look at 15- year-old Brittney Huff. She went missing from her home, Grass Valley, California, April 19. If you have any information on Brittney, please contact the Nevada County sheriff, 530-265-7880 or go on line, Beyondmissing.com. Please help us.

Very quickly, out to Santa Maria, California. Jane Velez-Mitchell, prediction?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. I don`t have a crystal ball, Nancy. You know, the O.J. jurors deliberated just a couple hours and came back with an acquittal. But the Blake jurors deliberated for several days and came back with acquittal.

GRACE: In this case. This case.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, there are people who say the fact that they haven`t just taken Tom Mesereau`s suggestions...

GRACE: OK...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... discount the whole thing because the family`s a pack of liars.

GRACE: Let me quickly go to Debra Opri. Prediction?

OPRI: After her spiel, I predict you`re going to tell me to wrap. I really think it`s to easy to call. I`m hoping by Friday, at this point. I thought it would have been today. I`m still holding out for an acquittal across the board.

GRACE: Anne Bremner?

BREMNER: I say -- I stand by what I`ve said, which is split the baby, Nancy, which is a conviction on the molestations and the alcohol. And I think it`s any day now. I thought it was going to be today. They`re all dressed up. But I also thought so at any...

GRACE: Split the baby. That`s the prediction. Got it. Daniel Horowitz?

HOROWITZ: Nancy, prosecutor Ron Zonen put perfume on a pig. But that`s going to (INAUDIBLE) The stink of those liars is going to come through. Not guilty this Friday.

GRACE: OK. Lauren Howard, 15 seconds.

HOWARD: I think Anne Bremner`s right. I hope Anne Bremner`s right. But not guilty.

GRACE: OK, Jane Velez-Mitchell, I love you dearly. Second strike.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hung jury.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: OK, she`s out on a limb. She`s being firm. Hung jury. Well, you know what, Jane? You`ve been in the courtroom from the get-go, friend. Thank you, everybody. What? Oh, I`ve got 15 seconds left. What?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK, Hung jury, but I think that there could be a conviction on the two counts that involve the actual accuser.

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: I`m going to give you another shot tomorrow night. Jane Velez Mitchell with "Celebrity Justice."

I want to thank all of my guests tonight, but my biggest thank you is to you for being with us tonight, inviting all of us into your home. Coming up, headlines from around the world, Larry on CNN. I`m Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. I hope to see you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 o`clock sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.

END