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Nancy Grace for June 9, 2005, CNNHN
Aired June 9, 2005 - 20:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news: 18-year-old American girl, Natalee Holloway, goes on her high school senior trip to Aruba, disappears into thin air. Now, three new additional arrests made just a few hours ago in the Natalee Holloway case, bringing the total number of arrestees to five. Could Natalee still be alive?
And we go live to California. It is day five of jury deliberations in the Michael Jackson child sex trial. While they deliberate, Jackson P.R. people pontificate, and Jackson rehabilitates. That`s right. It`s back to the hospital for Michael Jackson.
Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. And I want to thank you for being with us tonight.
We are in a verdict watch in the Michael Jackson child molestation trial, day five jury deliberations.
And tonight, five men now behind bars in connection with the disappearance of this girl, an 18-year-old high school beauty, Natalee Holloway. Tonight, in addition to two former security guards, the three men who escorted Natalee from a local bar in custody. Tonight, we`ll be speaking to the mother of one of the first suspects in custody, Ann John.
Also with us from Aruba, Mickey John`s lawyer, Noraina Pietersz; and Abraham Jones` lawyer, Chris LeJuez; in Palm Beach, Florida, defense attorney Michelle Suskauer; in Atlanta, defense attorney Renee Rockwell; L.A., psychoanalyst Bethany Marshall.
But first, let`s go to Aruba and CNN correspondent Karl Penhaul. Karl, more arrests, bring me up-to-date, friend.
KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: There were those three arrests. Those three arrests, Nancy, took place before dawn this morning. The houses were also searched. Two houses were raided. Some property was taken away, among the property, a computer and also a car.
Two of the suspects were brothers. They are 18- and 19-years-old, we`re told. And the third suspect is a 17-year-old. What prosecutors have told us is that there`s evidence that Natalee met the 17-year-old in the casino at the Holiday Inn the night before she disappeared and those are the three men that she was last seen in their company outside Carlos and Charlie`s bar.
GRACE: Karl Penhaul, you say that their cars were taken and computers. What do police hope to gain from their computers?
PENHAUL: Police have not said to us what they expect to gain from the items. In fact, they haven`t officially mentioned that they have taken a computer. But we have seen on videotape taken at the scene, we do see investigators taking away the hard drive of a computer.
But all options, as the prosecutor say, are open. They`re looking at all scenarios, in their words. So presumably, what they`re going to do is troll through that hard drive and see if there is anything on it that can give them any clues, Nancy.
GRACE: Karl Penhaul, the car that they impounded could have a lot of significance. Explain.
PENHAUL: This car seems to have been the car that Natalee Holloway got into along with those three men and drove off from Carlos and Charlie`s bar. Now, we`re obviously 11 days after Natalee`s disappearance. And I asked the police today as to why they hadn`t confiscated his car to start with.
They do say, however, that they did investigate the car initially shortly after Natalee`s disappearance but they didn`t seize it. They didn`t confiscate it. Obviously, I put it to them now, that a lot of any evidence, possible evidence in that car, could have been contaminated. But they say the confiscation at this point was a tactical decision, Nancy.
GRACE: Tactical decision?
Renee Rockwell, if you were looking for DNA evidence, fiber evidence, like what she was wearing that night, hair, fingerprints, you`ve got to move in quick. This is 11 days old. Why didn`t the cops seize it the day after?
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: And you can certainly imagine that it could be contaminated, Nancy. But the thing that concerns me the most is we don`t even know that this young lady is dead. I mean, there is no body. There is no blood, that we know of yet.
This is a situation where, god forbid, if she`s just gone missing, doesn`t sound like the kind of girl that would do that. After all, Nancy, she`s an honor roll student. The night before she`s about to go back home, she`s packed, she`s got her passport out. And she`s got a full scholarship to do a premed program at the University of Alabama. This doesn`t look like a girl...
GRACE: Renee, what`s your point? No offense, but what`s your point? We don`t have a body yet, so we shouldn`t be investigating? Are you siding with the cops, 11 days, a day late and a dollar short, grabbing this car and this computer?
ROCKWELL: I`m saying, Nancy, that they`re certainly under world pressure to find this young lady. This is an island that survives off of tourism. Over 650,000 people a year are visiting this island. And they`re certainly trying to find something to satisfy the world. But we don`t know if she`s dead. I was just saying that she doesn`t sound like a young lady that is just going to go missing.
GRACE: I agree, Renee. Never has left home like this before. Straight-A student, parents waiting on her, full scholarship waiting for her at the University of Alabama. I agree with you, Renee Rockwell.
Let`s go now back down to Aruba. Joining us, one of the defense attorneys for the first two suspects arrested, Chris LeJuez. He is the defense attorney for Abraham Jones.
Chris, thank you for being with us tonight. Tonight, three more arrests go down for the three young men who escorted Natalee Holloway out of the bar that night. Chris, have you seen the statements of these three men?
CHRIS LEJUEZ, ATTORNEY FOR ABRAHAM JONES: Nancy, I have seen only the statements of two of the three men. The evidence that I got, the documentation, the files that I received from the prosecutor`s office contained only two of the statements.
My colleague has asked the prosecutor why only the two, not the one of the Dutch boy? She was told by the prosecutor, at least by the prosecutor`s office, that that statement would not be relevant to the case of her suspect, her client.
GRACE: You know what? If all three of these young men were in the car, I don`t see how one of them is irrelevant.
But back to Chris LeJuez, the defense attorney for Abraham Jones, what was in the statement?
LEJUEZ: We know only what was in the statement of the other two boys. We do not know what was in the statement of the third boy.
GRACE: Right, what was in those two statements? What did they say?
LEJUEZ: That they met her at Carlos and -- at the tropical nightclub here in Aruba. I would prefer not to mention the name. And then they took her in the car. She went with them.
She met some friends alongside the road, nearby the mall, shopping mall. The friends said to her if she got out of the car and continue with them. She refused. She actually preferred to go with these boys.
They went all the way to the other side of the island behind a lighthouse. They spent some time there. She was kissing with one of the boys. And after that, they took her to the hotel where they dropped her off right at the front door of the front lobby.
GRACE: Kissing? Kissing where? In the car, on the beach, just kissing?
LEJUEZ: In the car, for sure. It`s a little more than kissing.
GRACE: Chris, a girl is missing tonight. She could be dead.
GRACE: These three claim one of them were in the car kissing and a little bit more than kissing this young girl, this young American girl, and now she`s gone missing. Did they say they dropped her off at the hotel? What happened then?
LEJUEZ: Well, both the statement that I`ve read from two of this young boys state very clearly that they dropped her off at the hotel at approximately 2 o`clock in the morning. She got out of the car. She was under the influence of alcohol. And then they saw her walk through the front door of the hotel inside the lobby.
At that point -- and perhaps that`s interesting to know -- at that point, they state they saw a man dressed in a black pair of trousers with a black t-shirt and, like, a walkie-talkie in his hand come to her, speak to her, and that`s when they left.
GRACE: Well, does this man they claim that they saw approaching her at the hotel bear any resemblance to your client?
LEJUEZ: The fact that they are of the black color, skin color, may be a resemblance. Not otherwise. My client never wears a t-shirt.
GRACE: OK, that`s what I was going to ask you. Was that his type of security uniform? I know your guy was a security guard. What did his security uniform look like?
LEJUEZ: Black trousers with a white shirt, and sometimes he would wear a black or dark blue jacket. They would never wear a black t-shirt. And they stated specifically more than once that he wore a black t-shirt.
GRACE: Now, have the police searched your client`s home, his vehicle? Have they found a black t-shirt belonging to him?
LEJUEZ: No. As far as I know, they have not. They have not shown me everything they have yet, and they do not have the obligation yet.
GRACE: To Karl Penhaul, CNN correspondent there in Aruba, Karl, do we have any more details about what happened the night Natalee went missing?
PENHAUL: Few more details than that. As Chris LeJuez has just said, the three men who were arrested today say that they dropped Natalee off and that after that they did see this other man on the scene here. But beyond that, nothing more about her whereabouts. And the prosecutors today have admitted that they have no evidence as to whether Natalee is alive or dead.
GRACE: Everybody, we are live in Aruba with the latest on the missing person case of 18-year-old Natalee Holloway. Scrubbed in sunshine, this girl, straight-A student, never had a bit of trouble out of her, full scholarship waiting on her in the fall. Where is Natalee? Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BETH TWITTY, MOTHER OF MISSING GIRL: Our primary goal is to bring Natalee back home. We will do whatever it takes. As I`ve said from the beginning, I`m not leaving Aruba without her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAREN JANSSEN, CHIEF ARUBA PROSECUTOR: The suspicion for these two suspects range from murder, to homicide, to kidnapping with death as a result. We also have complicity or accessory to those two criminal acts.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live in Aruba trying to find out the latest regarding a missing American girl, 18-year-old Natalee Holloway. Imagine you send your kid off on a senior trip and she vanishes into thin air. This is a girl who never gave anybody a minute`s trouble, straight-A student, in the dance corps, full scholarship waiting on her when she got back home.
Tonight, let`s go back to Aruba. Now joining us, one of the suspect, Mickey John`s mother is with us, Ann John.
Also with his, his lawyer, Noraina Pietersz.
Ladies, thank you for being with us tonight. First to Ann John. This is Mickey John`s mother. Where was your son the night Natalee went missing?
ANN JOHN, MOTHER OF MICKEY JOHN: My son, I think he was home at night in his bed, in his bed.
GRACE: OK, you said you think. Do you know?
JOHN: Well, I think, in the morning, my son went to work with me in the morning. From 6:00 to 2:00 (UNINTELLIGIBLE) back home. But due to my son is a grown man, sometimes he goes in his bed and lie down. So I didn`t know if it was (UNINTELLIGIBLE) but I think he was in his bed sleeping.
GRACE: Did you see him come in that night?
JOHN: No. Did I -- excuse me?
GRACE: Did you see him when he came home that night?
JOHN: Yes, I saw him when he came home this night. Mostly, he...
GRACE: What time did he get home?
JOHN: Well, this time I`m sleeping already, because he`s a grown man. Sometimes he`s out (UNINTELLIGIBLE) street with the guys and comes in. Sometimes he calls me. Sometimes he don`t.
GRACE: Miss John, what I`m trying to get at is the night that Natalee went missing, what time, when, approximately, did you see your son come home?
JOHN: When Natalee was missing that night, I didn`t hear anything about that. The next day I heard that this little lady was missing. The night I didn`t know what she was missing. And then the other day I heard her.
GRACE: Well, let me ask you one more time, Miss John. The night Natalee went missing, what time did you see your son come home?
JOHN: Well, that Sunday to the Monday morning, my son went to me to work -- we went to work 6 o`clock to 2 o`clock in the afternoon. And he came home back with me at 2 o`clock. And he was home for the day. We was home for the day.
GRACE: OK. I understand.
Let me go to Mickey John`s defense attorney, Noraina Pietersz. Ms. Pietersz, thank you for being with us.
Ma`am, from what I get, what I`m hearing, Ann John`s son, who`s now being held in connection with Natalee`s disappearance, got up with her the following morning after Natalee`s disappearance at 6:00 a.m. Is that your understanding?
NORAINA PIETERSZ, MICKEY JOHN`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes. He was actually that night visiting the Holiday Inn, to make that clear. He didn`t work that night. It was not his shift, but he was visiting.
And according to his statement, he left the Holiday Inn around 12:00 p.m. And after that, he went straight home. He might have stopped somewhere nearby his house, but further than that, he didn`t do anything else than go home.
GRACE: OK, 12:00 p.m. And Natalee went missing later, say, you know, ten hours later. I`m trying to get the time frame here.
PIETERSZ: Around 1:30. She was missing officially around 1:30.
GRACE: OK, 1:30 a.m. You`re telling me that your client was at home at that time or at the Holiday Inn?
PIETERSZ: No, he was not at the Holiday Inn that time. He left already. He was not working. He was just visiting. He went there approximately at 9:00 p.m. and he left around 12:00 p.m.
And according to the statement of the two witnesses, the two guys now suspect, that they said they saw a security guard walking up to Natalee around, I assume, 2 o`clock. And that never could be my client because he wasn`t even working. So he was not wearing a uniform.
GRACE: Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUTH MCVAY, MISSING GIRL`S FRIEND: She is most responsible, smart, beautiful, incredible friend that I`ve ever known. This is out of her character. And all we want to stress is that it`s of the utmost importance to pray as much as you can because she is such a wonderful person and we know she`s coming back.
PAUL REYNOLDS, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S UNCLE: We`re doing well. It`s an overwhelming outpouring of support and concern from the island, everyone in the states, the authorities. It`s an amazing series of events, and we`re just touched as to how Natalee has reached people`s lives.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Let`s go straight back down to Aruba. Standing by, one of the suspect`s mother is with us, Ann John.
Miss John, why you to believe police targeted your son?
JOHN: I doesn`t know. Up until now, I doesn`t know why they target him. I don`t know, because I tried to find out from the police. And they said to me it doesn`t know. So I don`t know why they target him.
GRACE: Miss John, your son is one of the two security guards that were first arrested, not one of the three young men that were last seen with Natalee. It`s my understanding that there is some belief a racial bias is happening. Do you think that?
JOHN: I do think so.
GRACE: Explain. I think you can hear me. Ann John, why do you think there is racial bias happening?
JOHN: Because for the first -- I understand that there was three guys, because I was watching on the TV and I understand there was three guys who they said went with the car with the girl. And I heard nothing else after that.
But afterwards, through my listening to the news, I heard -- I was in my work. I was in my job. And when they call me and tell me that police was at my house, and when I reach up, I thought it was something as maybe he cussed somebody or something. I didn`t think anything about that.
But then I reach and I went to the police station. I asked them, "What`s the matter?" And they tell me they don`t know. So up until now, I don`t know if it`s that (UNINTELLIGIBLE) because nobody told me. The police never told me that they had my son for that, so I don`t know what they has him for up until now. And since then, I haven`t seen my son as yet.
GRACE: Miss John, you haven`t gotten to even see your son?
JOHN: No. When I came from my work, my job, I rushed to reach home. I went to the police station. And I asked the police, "I understand you all have my son here." And he said to me, "We don`t know."
I said, "Sir, what my little son just told me that you all took my son." He said to me, "We don`t know." So I went back to my house. And I called the police station at (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and said to me, "You have to go back to (UNINTELLIGIBLE) because it`s in (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
When I went back to the same police, he was standing there. He said to me, "You come back here again? I tell you I don`t know where he is." So I tell him, "That`s all right. And I walk out of the police station."
And then I went to look. Because they already had my car already. So I got a lift, and I was on my way. And then I learned one of the police said to me, "Maybe he is in one of the different stations." And then they gave my son a phone call and he called home, while I was on the road. And he called me and told me -- my son said that he`s not in a police station. So when I reached...
GRACE: So still, as of now, you still have not seen him?
JOHN: No. When I reach (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to the police station, he said to me, the police said to me he`s there, but I may not talk to him.
GRACE: OK, hold on just a moment. I hate to interrupt you, but I have got to take a quick break, everyone.
We are live if Aruba trying to ferret through information. New arrests today in the disappearance of 18-year-old Natalee Holloway, an American girl.
Quickly, to "Trial Tracking," today, Jerry Hobbs pleads not guilty to the charge that he murdered his 8-year-old little girl, Laura, and her 9- year-old friend, Krystal Tobias. Police say Hobbs confessed on tape he killed the two girls.
The little girls, best friends, went missing on Mother`s Day. Police found their bodies in a park in Zion, Illinois, both girls brutally stabbed to death. Hobbs has a long criminal record, just released from prison for aggravated assault. Prosecutors have not yet announced whether they will seek the death penalty.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE "JUG" TWITTY, MISSING GIRL`S STEPFATHER: I hope, I pray to God that she walks through that door or that we find her somewhere. I don`t care if she`s, you know, in a crack house somewhere and she`s been drugged up for, you know, seven days or whatever. We can work with that. We can fix her. We can do whatever to get her back. That`s all we want. That`s all we`re asking.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That`s the father of Natalee Holloway.
Quickly, back down to Aruba. Before we go back to one of the suspect`s attorney, to Karl Penhaul, CNN correspondent.
The three men that were arrested today, I take it, were already questioned and released by police, right?
PENHAUL: That`s correct. Police have told us that shortly after the disappearance of Natalee Holloway, simply by virtue of the fact that these were the three young men last seen in her company, they were interviewed. When we got to the island, police were also saying that they continue to crosscheck their stories and that they had looked at their car but certainly not confiscated it.
But yes, certainly, they were known to police, Nancy.
GRACE: Now, are the three men currently detained as of today formally charged?
PENHAUL: The Dutch system, which is the thing that`s been causing a little bit of problems to explain, is very different from the U.S. system. But at this stage, we best to say because they`re arrested, because they`re officially suspects, they are also formally accused. But it`s a little short of formally charged, Nancy.
GRACE: I understand. I get it.
With us in Aruba, Karl Penhaul, CNN correspondent. We`ll all be right back. Please stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE "JUG" TWITTY, MISSING GIRL`S STEPFATHER: Nobody understands, nobody would understand the highs and lows that we have been through, through the sightings and this and that. It just -- it`s really, really an emotional roller-coaster. Beth, my wife, is -- she`s a very strong person. I think people have seen that in some of the interviews she`s done. She plays that strong role. But when we get back to the room, it is totally -- you know, it is different. She`s very emotional.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. The search has turned desperate for Natalee Holloway, an 18-year-old American girl that went missing on her senior trip in Aruba. Straight back down to Aruba. Before we take you to the Michael Jackson trial, I want to go back to defense attorney for Abraham Jones, one of the young men in custody, Chris LeJuez. Chris, Do you know what evidence led police to arrest your guy?
LEJUEZ: Possibly, it would be the fact that these boys saw someone appear, like a security guard, and the fact that they have stated -- someone has stated that they saw two people walking on the area that night, and one of them appeared like to be my client.
GRACE: Now, who are these witnesses, Chris?
LEJUEZ: One of them is a kind of a person who is always on the beach, a beach bum, you could say, we call them here in Aruba. And the other one was a security guard of the Holiday Inn hotel.
GRACE: OK. To Noraina Pietersz, who is the security guard`s attorney. Do you believe that there is some type of a class bias against your client?
PIETERSZ: What -- can you repeat that question?
GRACE: Sure. Noraina, do you believe there is some type of a bias, be it racial or class bias, against your client, why your guy was arrested?
PIETERSZ: I don`t want to believe so. But as I said before, I thought the reason why they got to the security guard issue was because of the two now suspects, the two brothers. They said that when they dropped Natalee off by the Holiday Inn, they saw a black security man with a black uniform walk towards her in the lobby or in that area of the lobby. That`s how they got to my client, probably.
GRACE: Very quickly, Chris LeJuez, we heard the alibi for Mickey John. What is the alibi for your client, Abraham Jones?
PIETERSZ: Well, he has an alibi, but the problem is, he has nobody to verify it because his mother was at home. She was sleeping. And like she said, he`s a grown-up man. She doesn`t really control and check on the time he gets home. So he doesn`t have somebody that can say, Oh, yes, he was home at such time. That`s the only thing. But the fact is that he was not at the Holiday Inn. He was never seen at that time during the disappearance at the Holiday Inn. He was not working. He didn`t have a uniform, so it could never be him, the man that these two now suspects are talking about.
GRACE: Chris LeJuez, what`s your guy`s alibi?
LEJUEZ: I beg your pardon?
GRACE: What is your client`s alibi?
LEJUEZ: My client`s alibi he is that went to a soul music festival at another beach far away from the Holiday Inn hotel. He was there with his wife, with his friend, and he saw many friends there. They were together when he went home, and they spent the night together at home. The next morning, he woke up and went to work at around 7:00 o`clock in the morning, a very believable and confirmed alibi.
GRACE: I want to thank both lawyers with us tonight, the lawyers of the two security guard suspects first taken into custody in Aruba. Noraina Pietersz and Chris LeJuez, thank you. We will stay on the story.
Let`s shift gears and go out to Santa Maria, California, and the Michael Jackson trial. Trial attorney out of Seattle Anne Bremner is joining us. But first to "Celebrity Justice" correspondent Jane Velez- Mitchell. So Jane, do we have a verdict yet?
JANE-VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": We do not. And I have to tell you, Nancy, this verdict watch is turning into a real war of nerves. Everybody seems to be getting stressed out. Michael Jackson reportedly made yet another trip, a brief visit to the hospital, sometime last night for treatment of back spasms. We estimate this is now his fifth trip to the hospital since this trial began.
Meantime, everybody here -- we`re talking about the huge media contingent, the fans on the other side of the fence and the local townspeople -- everybody seems to be getting restless, itching to know what exactly is going on inside that jury room. They have deliberated for 23 hours now. They have only asked one minor procedural question in all of that time. They`ve asked for absolutely no readbacks. Now, they left early today so some could attend some high school graduations.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s a total mystery.
GRACE: Jane, I`m taking my own heartbeat, and I think I`m sick, too. Where is Jackson in the hospital tonight?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, he`s supposedly back home, at this point. He made a brief visit -- according to the Associated Press, he left at...
GRACE: Jane -- Jane...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... about 20 minutes after midnight. He was only there for about an hour.
GRACE: Jane -- I`m going to go to Anne Bremner. Anne, I`m feeling a little ill right now. I`m taking my -- yes, I have a heartbeat. Anne...
ANNE BREMNER, TRIAL ATTORNEY: The vapors.
GRACE: Is this the fourth -- the vapors! Is this the fourth or the fifth visit to the hospital for Jackson.
BREMNER: Five. It`s the fifth, Nancy. He went -- he went during jury selection. He had pajama day when he went to the same hospital the night after his accuser started testimony. And then, of course, his accuser is on the stand the next day. And then after that, he had another one during closing arguments, and then he`s had two now during deliberations. So it`s up to five.
GRACE: Renee Rockwell, I`m feeling sick. I`ve got a fever, too.
GRACE: What`s with this? Have you ever, ever, Renee, had a guy on trial for a felony like child molestation, that when the going gets rough, he gets going to the hospital?
ROCKWELL: I wonder why he`s going to the hospital. Although I wouldn`t feel too bad, if I were he. He is absolutely -- I don`t think he`s going to get convicted, Nancy. We`re going into a Friday deliberation. And you know how jurors are. They like to finish up at the end of the week. Now, the judge could certainly come to them and say, Do you want to keep deliberating? Do you want to go a little late? Do you want to come Saturday, Sunday? Are you close? Are you far apart? I think tomorrow afternoon, we`re going to see where the mix is and if there`s any possibility of a verdict.
GRACE: You know, she`s right, Michelle Suskauer. Very often, by the end of the first week, the judge will unofficially send the bailiff in there to nose around and say, You guys had a vote yet? Are you even close? What do you think, Michelle?
MICHELLE SUSKAUER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, I think that we are -- I totally agree. I think we`re going to hear something. If they don`t come to an agreement tomorrow, they may want to keep going on the weekend and finish and get back to their own lives. So I think that they want to finish with this. They want to be done. And Michael Jackson should probably spend as much time at home because I think his hospital visits are going to be limited to the infirmary at the jail.
GRACE: Well, there`s been a lot of talking going down outside the courthouse. I wonder if the jury`s heard it. There`s been so much activity, so much noise, so much chanting going on outside the courthouse, the judge actually has to pipe Muzak out to the patio where the jurors go take a smoke. I don`t know how they can`t hear this. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RAYMONE BAIN, MICHAEL JACKSON`S SPOKESPERSON: Michael has been very hands-on...
REVEREND JESSE JACKSON, RAINBOW/PUSH COALITION: Michael`s innocent.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Michael Jackson is not being charged with lewd conduct.
JACKSON: Presumed innocent until proven guilty.
BAIN: He`s been plagued with a back injury.
JACKSON: He`s also concerned about the political climate.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s eating (ph), but he`s having sleepovers.
JACKSON: Michael is an excruciating pain.
BAIN: When you drink carrot juice...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He has had these witnesses saying nothing happened.
BAIN: And you have celery juice.
JACKSON: The back is getting better.
BAIN: We`re not talking about celebrations.
JACKSON: His spirits have never been greater.
BAIN: We`re not talking about funerals. We`re not talking about defeat or victory.
JACKSON: ... to be with him (INAUDIBLE) until the verdict is determined.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s being charged with, I think, four counts of child molestation.
BAIN: Yesterday was not a great day, as I said, for him. His spirits weren`t that high.
JACKSON: ... want to see Michael grimacing...
BAIN: Michael Jackson sold over seven million compilation albums.
JACKSON: ... a sense of betrayal by those who he trusted the most.
BAIN: He`s going through a lot of emotions right now, relief that it`s over...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Well, it ain`t over just yet! Very quickly, back to Jane Velez-Mitchell with "Celebrity Justice." Am I crazy, or is there a gag order?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: There is a gag order. And you know, yesterday, Tom Mesereau, Jackson`s lead defense attorney, said a stern message saying he hadn`t authorized anyone to hold any news conferences. The family backed that up, the Jackson family, with their own missive. And today, guess what? No news conferences at all.
GRACE: Well, hello! Wait just a minute! I believe I saw the Reverend Jesse Jackson on "AMERICAN MORNING" on CNN.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I mean, he may have given interviews privately, but he wasn`t here at what they call the "green monster"...
GRACE: CNN? Hello! Cable News Network! It goes all around the globe!
VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. You make a very good point. I`m saying here at the courthouse, at the green monster, where people hold their big news conferences for the massive media, the 2,000 or so that have converged here, to have this big, giant conference that the jurors might overhear -- there was none of that today.
GRACE: OK. Maybe they saw it only in Tibet. I don`t know. Jane Velez-Mitchell there at the courthouse, we`ll all be right back.
But very quickly, to tonight`s "All Points Bulletin." FBI and law enforcement across the country on the lookout for this man, Michael Marks, wanted in connection with a 2003 Pennsylvania robbery where the victim was beaten mercilessly, his wife forced to the watch. The wife then died of a heart attack. Marks, armed and dangerous, 51, 5-7, 240 pounds, black hair, brown eyes. If you have info, call the FBI, 412-432-4000.
And tonight, I want to thank you. Last night, you helped put fugitive and alleged child molester Donald Crawford where he belongs, behind bars. The FBI in Seattle received a call from one of our viewers that led them directly to Donald Crawford. Thank you.
Local news next for some of you, but we`ll all be right back. And remember, live coverage of the Jackson verdict watch tomorrow, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern on Court TV.
Please stay with us as we remember Sergeant Miguel A. Ramos, 39, an American hero.
GRACE: Whoa! I`m getting dizzy! No, it`s not a circus, it`s not a festival, and that`s not Debbie Rowe. These are the fans outside the Jackson courthouse. "Japan loves you," "Free Michael."
OK, let`s go live to the courthouse. Standing by, Jane Velez- Mitchell. Jane, try to describe for us what is going on out there.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, it`s a circus. And I know that is a cliche, but that`s the best way to describe it. When you`re here -- more than 2,000 media members here from all over the world -- I was interviewed by a gentleman from Peru yesterday, a very delightful man. Then on the other side, you have all these fans, at least 100, 200 on any given day. Yesterday they released doves. There`s chanting. There`s screaming. There`s singing. A child`s choir came here and was serenading us the other day. People holding signs, obviously. And then sometimes, it can get very peaceful with prayer vigils. And other times, it can get quite belligerent. In fact, one reporter had to obtain a restraining order against a particular fan that she felt was harassing her and verbally attacking her.
GRACE: Apparently, a fan that grabbed her by the shoulder, I might add. Very quickly, let me go Seattle trial lawyer Anne Bremner. Anne, all of this can go on until the cows come home, as far as I`m concerned. All I want to know is, is Melville managing to keep this away from the jury? That`s all that matters. They can have as many posters and chants and prayer chains and throw-downs (ph) as they want to. All that matters is those 12 in the box.
BREMNER: They can have monkeys with cymbals and the dancing bears, and we`ve also had -- besides the doves, people dressed like panda bears and men, grown men in diapers out front, and people bringing their dogs and walking them, their babies and, you know, everything else, Nancy.
But that`s what he`s doing, pumping that Muzak out in their area where they take their break so they can`t hear it, bringing them in the back. And they`ve got the two white vans, just like Michael Jackson has the two black SUVs that he comes in on. And I think the judge is doing a great job of just keeping them isolated from this. But it is an unbelievable circus out here. We have doubled the media that we had before in the last week. It`s wild.
GRACE: Very quickly, to Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, joining us from LA. Bethany, Jackson back in the hospital again. This is the fifth time during this trial. What do you think?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: I think Michael Jackson has never, ever taken responsibility for himself. He hasn`t taken responsibility for his debt, for his spending. When he lived in Encino and he had that big zoo and it smelled up the neighborhood and the neighbors asked him to clean it up, he didn`t take responsibility for that. He`s not taking responsibility for the fact that it`s wrong to sleep with children.
So what happens is that as the trial progresses and he`s successively being asked to take responsibility and take a look at himself and his own behavior, he is falling apart. And what`s going to happen when he has to take the ultimate act of responsibility, which could be going to jail? He may fall apart in the ultimate kind of way, committing suicide.
GRACE: Michelle Suskauer, you know, so far, Jackson has weathered quite a bit. I somehow don`t see -- I don`t know that I agree with Bethany on this one tonight. But let`s talk about this jury for a moment. You know, on Friday, they were only back there long enough to elect a foreperson. I`m not so sure that their deliberations aren`t too long, at this juncture. And also, it`s giving the defense a perfect claim on appeal, the circus going on outside the courtroom, unless Melville is keeping them from it.
SUSKAUER: You know, I think that the judge may have made a mistake in not sequestering this jury because again, this is a very, very unique situation. We wouldn`t see this -- if it wasn`t Michael Jackson, we would be running after someone charged with these crimes with torches and pitchforks. But it`s Michael Jackson, and this -- because of this media circus, because of all of the media, because of all the fans, maybe he should have sequestered them. So we don`t know -- to answer your question, we don`t know how productive their deliberations have been. We really don`t know how long this is going to go on. And again, it can go on next week, it can go on longer. And it`s very, very hard to disregard everything that`s going on. And although I`m sure they`re trying to not watch television, to not...
GRACE: Very quickly to Renee Rockwell -- Renee, do you believe you can read a jury and figure out which way they`re headed? I do.
ROCKWELL: Well, especially when they`re coming out to maybe ask a question. You want to see if the foreman -- or any of the jurors are looking at the defense or looking at the prosecution. But talk about sequestering a jury -- Nancy, these jurors are going home every night. They`re talking to their husbands, their boyfriends. Somebody with some pillow talk is telling them about what`s going on outside that courthouse. They can`t possibly...
GRACE: And you know what else, Renee? If it`s pillow talk, there is no way anybody`s ever going to find out about it.
Quickly, to break. We`ll all be right back.
After becoming a victim of violent crime myself and prosecuting violent felonies, I have an objection about how Lady Justice is tricked and treated in our system. Part of the proceeds from "Objection" go to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. Please stay with us.
GRACE: We at NANCY GRACE want very much to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Take a look at Alfred Glass, shot and killed in his own Atlanta driveway, August, 1998. If you have any information on Glass, please call the Carole Sund Carrington Foundation toll-free, 888-813-8389. Please help us.
Welcome back, everybody. Straight back out to Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst. Bethany, all of this ruckus going down outside the courthouse, all of the pressers about Jackson`s back and his health -- if one of these alleged victims hears all this, what impact will it have on them?
MARSHALL: I think if the alleged victims hear about this -- and even what if the jury -- the jurors have access to this? They`re going to take a look and say, Gee, this guy has strange bedfellows. He has the Reverend Jesse Jackson, who`s already announcing that Michael Jackson wants to build a theme park in Africa. He has Raymone Bain, who is living in the same upside-down world that Michael Jackson`s living in. And they`re going to look at this situation, the jurors are going to look at the situation and say, Could he have done it?
GRACE: I always wonder about the impact the alleged victim will have when they see all of this surrounding -- all this concern and support and ruckus surrounding the defendant. Nothing about them.
MARSHALL: They`re going say, Why does Michael Jackson get all the attention, and why didn`t anyone attend to me and protect me? That`s what they`re going to say.
GRACE: Guys, I`ve got 30 seconds left. Renee Rockwell, verdict?
ROCKWELL: Hung jury this time.
GRACE: You know what? That`s a miracle for a lawyer to say that short, beautiful. Michelle Suskauer, can you top that?
SUSKAUER: It`s going to be split. He`s going to be acquitted on the conspiracy charge and found guilty of a few others.
GRACE: Anne Bremner?
BREMNER: Split the baby, same thing. But alcohol, too.
GRACE: And Jane Velez-Mitchell, I`ll see you bright and early tomorrow. What time do we get started with deliberations?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: At 8:30 AM, and it`s a full day we expect tomorrow.
GRACE: Jane, I`ll see you tomorrow, friend, on the airwaves.
I want to thank all of my guests tonight, but as always, my biggest thank you to you for being with all of us here and inviting all of us into your homes. Coming up, headlines from around the world, Larry on CNN. I`m Nancy Grace, signing off for tonight. I hope to see you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 o`clock sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.