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DIPLOMATIC LICENSE
Current Events at the United Nations
Aired June 10, 2005 - 21:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know about the transition of authority from the CPA --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One guy going out there and shaking hands ain't going to change the world out there. You know, we've seen it before. It's just -- what are you doing. You know, they're going to go, yeah, the U.S. guys came around today at the donut shop and shook hands with us. What's for dinner, you know. You got those RPGs in the basement still? Yeah, they didn't find them. Oh, good.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's not a natural disaster so to speak. It's a manmade disaster. It's a Kim Jong Il created disaster.
ADOLFO AGUILAR ZINSER, FMR. MEXICAN AMB. TO U.N.: I believe that I have always told the truth and things happened the way they happened this time, but I have always told the truth.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD ROTH, CNN ANCHOR: We're not Cannes or Sundance, but think of our program, DIPLOMATIC LICENSE, as a portal into another film festival.
Hello. I'm Richard Roth.
It's our annual look at the Human Rights Watch International Film Festival, which rolled into Manhattan this week. It's year 16 and, believe me, the world is not running out of human rights conflicts, and the filmmakers are not running out of video, or whatever they use to capture the injustices or struggles for dignity.
First up for us, "Occupation Dreamland," close-up with a group of American soldiers in Iraq, specifically the city of Fallujia in January of 2004.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I hope Al-Fallujia one day gets fixed. I just don't see it happening any time soon. It's -- I mean, how can it. You know, that's years and years and years of people like us going out there and getting blown up and getting shot at, and maybe getting a chance to shoot back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want some answers. I want some clarification on what we're doing. I feel that every day, every day. Especially on those big missions, and there are so many people, so many moving pieces, and it's kind of jumbled up, but I guess somebody smarter than me knows what's going on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROTH: I couldn't believe the bluntness of these U.S. soldiers throughout the film "Occupation Dreamland."
We have questions about this film, so we invited co-director Ian Olds to join us.
Ian, did the Pentagon give you permission and were they aware of how much you saw and heard of these young Americans?
IAN OLDS, "OCCUPATION DREAMLAND": We got permission once we were in Iraq, for people that are doing sort of independent small-scale projects, you can't set it up from here. And so we did a preliminary trip in August 2003 to see if it was possible, and then went back in December. And then it was a matter of going to the CPA and setting up a short-term imbed.
ROTH: But while you were filming, getting very honest answers from these soldiers, was there a Pentagon person with you?
OLDS: No, there never was, and the army unit never asked to see our footage or review it, and it was very, very open. It was surprisingly casual in terms of that.
ROTH: But the answers are somewhat devastating for someone watching this film.
OLDS: Yes, again, I mean, I don't know if it surprised the army. I know all the soldiers in the film love the movie. The army itself is a little uncertain, obviously, but --
ROTH: So what do you think your film captures, working with this team, part of the 82nd Airborne in Fallujia. You see them on patrols, talking to families in the middle of the night. You see them trying to relax in their own quarters there.
OLDS: Yes. I mean, this is -- as one of the soldiers says in the movie, you know, he says people want their steak, but they don't want to know how the cow gets butchered, and that's what this movie is in a sense. We wanted to see what it was like on the ground, what these guys did, how they carried out operations, and what they thought about it. So that's what it is. It's fairly simple, but we spent enough time with them that they could be open and honest and trust us, I guess.
ROTH: You were opposed to the war. Do you think that effected the way you shot it or edited it?
OLDS: I think it must have some, but at the same time, one thing that is important to us is that all the soldiers, whether they were on the right or the left, all loved the movie, who are in it. So we felt a certain obligation to them to treat them honestly, so regardless of my person opinion, there was no way that I could in good conscience just edit it to make it look a certain way, you know.
ROTH: For somebody watching this at home, all right, this film is in the International Human Rights Watch Film Festival, but whose human rights are being violated here? You're not showing anything of what Saddam did to these people. What's this picture?
OLDS: I always think of it in two ways, both for the Iraqis, but I also think of it about human rights for the U.S. soldiers, because not many people aren't actually giving them the time to actually see what they think about what they do. I mean, most people's response is that oh, the soldiers are just concerned about keeping their buddies safe and them safe.
Yes, this is true, but, of course, these are complex human beings and they have whole worlds inside, and so to give them a chance to speak is part of it as well.
ROTH: Recruitment is down. On Friday more statistics for the U.S. military, fourth straight month. And in your film you see a session where there are two commanders saying how many of you have gone to an official and said you don't want to reenlist, and almost the whole room raises their hands.
OLDS: Right. It's a very common process. When people get to a certain stage, I think it's several months before they're supposed to get out, there are these mandatory meetings, so that was happening all the time. And, yes, most people -- once you are over there, it's very confusing, even for the people that do fully support the war, and so, of course, uncertainty about going back for more.
ROTH: Well, Ian, the squad does see a commander get killed. The people of Iraq don't like their presence. It does take a toll, as we see in "Occupation Dreamland."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are -- that's the goal. That's what we (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm a pretty cynical guy. I'm a skeptic. But I don't, you know, my motivations aren't political. I don't care about any of that stuff. I do my job to the best of my ability. The people of this country that want to do damage and kill people in the United States, I think they're (EXPLETIVE DELETED). I hate them. I want to kill them. I hate them with everything that I got.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROTH: Well, you never told us what was the reaction from the military brass to this film?
OLDS: They've been intentionally not reacting too strongly. One of the commanders, I think, said if we had made a movie, we would have made it differently, was a direct quote. So I think they're hesitant to say too much, but I know that they're being very careful about how they speak about it, because they're uncertain how to take it. But, again, it's important to us that all the soldiers in the movie, they are fully behind it.
ROTH: I mean, they knew there was a camera on them, and then at some points they joke around, saying -- they use fictitious names. But you were there for a lot. How do you think your presence effected events on the ground there?
OLDS: I don't think our presence effected the events, per se, but I know they were very aware of us and their walls were up and guarded very often.
But at the same time, we spent so much time with them that over time I think we did get a lot of real natural --
ROTH: What do you think, based upon your two-month experience there, what is going to happen in Iraq?
OLDS: Oh, I don't know. The sense from being there, it was pretty devastating, because the sense of futility was sort of overwhelming. So I don't know. It was very painful to see, both for what was happening to the U.S. soldiers, their growing frustration, and the locals. So I just don't know, actually, what is going to happen.
ROTH: And this platoon is back home, you say in the film, waiting for deployment. What's happened? Have you kept up with them about the reentry into life here, after they're busting down doors in the middle of the night?
OLDS: We have kept up with them, and one of the soldiers is coming to the screening, actually, who will answer questions with us. But, yes, some of them reenlisted. Some of them didn't. Coming back, I know, was difficult for all of them.
ROTH: Do you think your film does a better job than the mass media of showing what's really happening on the ground in Iraq?
OLDS: Yes, I do.
ROTH: And why is that?
OLDS: It's context and it's time. When a news guy gets to go in, he spends three days, and the pressure to make a story, he has to sort of use pressure tactics with the soldiers, and they're not going to speak up because they know if they say something it's going to be broadcast the next day and they're going to be in trouble.
So, with us, we spent six weeks. They know it's not going to be broadcast for a little while longer. They also have a relationship to us that they know -- they trust us, and they said things that they knew we could take out of context, and they trusted us as people to provide the context. So that's what I think the advantage is.
ROTH: Ian Olds, co-director "Occupation Dreamland," your first film. You're editor, writer on "Cul-de-sac, The Suburban Story." Thank you very much for appearing here on DIPLOMATIC LICENSE.
OLDS: Thank you very much.
ROTH: The New York premier for "Occupation Dreamland" is this coming week, Tuesday, Wednesday and Friday. To say it's timely goes without explanation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(EXPLOSION)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I wish we could have just lit those two guys up. You saw a guy on the left.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, yeah.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) there's another guy on my --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We should have killed them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was just waiting for the word, too. Yeah. If you started firing, that was proof of that guy running. I'm telling you. I'm getting mad, man. This is --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That one and the one in front of the mosque was the biggest one. That one was the worst.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I should have (EXPLETIVE DELETED) killed him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That one was the worst one yet, without a doubt.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I should have (EXPLETIVE DELETED) killed him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The underground railroad today is a faint echo of the underground railroad that took place in the Civil War.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you come face to face with the realities of what the refugees have to tell us, suddenly that 2 million dead or 3 million dead in North Korea starts to penetrate to your heart and your conscience, and you realize you have to do something.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROTH: North Korean refugees making a desperate run for it, usually in China, trying to hop the fence of diplomatic compounds. It is the heart of "Seoul Train," another entry in this year's New York-based Human Rights Watch International Film Festival.
He was a businessman and now a filmmaker. Jim Butterworth. We welcome the co-director of "Seoul Train."
Your film is a documentary with a rare look into the underground railroad of sorts. North Koreans wanting to get out of their basket case country.
Why did you do this film?
JIM BUTTERWORTH, "SEOUL TRAIN": I just felt inspired. My partner on the film and I, Lisa Sleeth (ph), just felt like we wanted to do something to help this crisis and what it lacked was awareness, so we hopped on Amazon.com, bought three books on how to make a documentary and two months later we were on plane to China.
ROTH: And what do you believe your film shows? What's the problem, the crisis, that is really not covered that well by general media?
BUTTERWORTH: Right, well, there are about 5 million of the 22 million population in North Korea that are starving to death. About 3 million people have died in the past two years. So they're just trying to survive. The only way out of North Korea is into China. It's a simple river you across. About a quarter of a million refugees are in China. The Chinese hunt them down, capture them, send them back to North Korea.
ROTH: Well, Jim, you include in your film some footage that was shot by a North Korean defector who returns to shoot some rare footage of the suffering with a hidden camera.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Many children suffer the most that really influences their growth. At the age of 7, most North Korea children and South Korean children have a 12 cm height difference. So, in inches probably it is about five or six inches difference at the age of 7. We are supposedly the same genetic population.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROTH: Tell us about the desperate flight to get out of North Korea, then China, to safety in Seoul. How many make it? What does your film show?
BUTTERWORTH: Well, there are about a quarter of a million, although no one knows for sure, because that's part of the problem. China will not allow any of the agencies, like the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees or any of the NGOs, to work with the refugees. So no one really knows how many refugees are there to begin with.
But estimates are anywhere from 50,000 to maybe as many as 300,000, and they're hiding out underground, because if they get caught and sent back, it's life or death.
ROTH: And the same for filmmakers. I mean, your film uses -- tell us about the footage from this defector and also footage that is taken throughout the film, trying to show people running.
BUTTERWORTH: Yes, well, I mean, certainly if that defector, who went back to North Korea, if he had been caught, he would have just been executed on the spot.
ROTH: Now, there are some very poignant personal stories in the film. Tell us about this man, Chun (ph), who leads the underground railroad express trying to get people out. What happened to him?
BUTTERWORTH: Well, you have to see the film. I'm just kidding.
ROTH: We don't joke on this show. A very serious program.
BUTTERWORTH: OK. I'll watch it.
Chun Ki Wan (ph) is actually responsible for about 10 percent, believe it or not, of all the North Koreans that have even made it to South Korea in 52 years, since the end of the Korean War. He's brought close to 500 North Korean refugees out of China to South Korea, and you have to go via a third country, like Mongolia.
But the problem is you have to dodge the Chinese authorities, and a lot of times you have North Korean spies that are part of your refugee group. And that was the case with him, and he got caught and spent eight months in a Chinese prison in Mongolia, Inner Mongolia.
ROTH: Before we take a look at the U.N. role in this, or lack of activity, let's look at another clip from "Seoul Train."
This bid for freedom by North Koreans attempting to get into the Japanese consulate of a Chinese city.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (IN KOREAN)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The embassy incident is just a reflection of how hard it had become for the refugees. Basically, those people took desperate actions to get into the embassy because there were no other options for them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROTH: What happened?
BUTTERWORTH: To this group? Well, they got caught at the gate, but the Japanese people, when they saw this footage, just went ballistic. Because the Chinese guards actually crossed into their --
ROTH: I noticed they crossed the line into the compound.
BUTTERWORTH: And it was only because of Japanese people and then the Japanese government confronted the Chinese government that the Chinese government finally let them go. But that is a valuable lesson. That is the lesson to this whole crisis. If you confront China and embarrass them, they will back down.
ROTH: And do you believe the United Nations is confronting China? The human rights, the activity -- the refugee agency, UNHCR.
BUTTERWORTH: Are you kidding me? No way. They are sitting in Beijing, enjoying their cushy expat life, and not doing a single thing about this. They have a mandate to protect refugees. I have the latest East Asia report from the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees. Not one mention -- not one mention -- of North Korean refugees.
ROTH: They say it's an intergovernmental organization, they can only do as much as these governments want to cooperate and help. What do you think they should be doing?
BUTTERWORTH: Well, they have the legal tools at their disposal to take China to arbitration and force China to allow them to go to the border and protect these refugees. At least interview the North Koreans to determine if they are refugees. But they're -- China is not allowing them to do that, nor is the UNHCR using the legal tools at its disposal to allow them to do that.
ROTH: And why do you think that is?
BUTTERWORTH: They, like you said, Richard, the United Nations, I think there is a popular misconception about what the United Nations is. It's an intergovernmental organization that's composed of member states, and China is a permanent member of the Security Council, and they don't want them to do it, so that's why they're not doing it.
ROTH: Should they have the Olympics, China, because of their activities you capture in this film?
BUTTERWORTH: Yes, we do, we raise that in the film, and, you know what, I don't want to answer that, because our film is about raising the questions. And it's up to everyone else to view the film, look at the debate and decide for themselves.
ROTH: How risky was this for you, in doing the film?
BUTTERWORTH: Well, we didn't get caught. I mean, if we had gotten caught, it probably would have been serious. But, more importantly, you know, we had to be really careful that no one we came in contact with got caught, because for them, it was life and death. If we had inadvertently led authorities to some of the refugees or activists that we were meeting with, they would have been in serious trouble.
ROTH: You know, we asked our last guest this. You're out there, a lot of the major media is doing other stories. What do you think the lesson is, in terms of getting the story? This is what it seems to be taking -- I mean, it happens with a lot of these entries in the Human Rights Watch Film Festival.
BUTTERWORTH: I enjoyed his answer, because Ian said the same thing that happened to us. I mean, we went, we lived with these people. We spent not just hours, we spent months living with these activists and the underground railroad. And it took that long to develop their trust, and when we finally did, that's when they warmed up and started to tell us their story and give us some of the footage that they had taken themselves.
And we were just two people, Lisa and I, and I think we were very genuine about our intentions and our purpose and that's why we were able to do it.
ROTH: Jim, thank you very much for being here on DIPLOMATIC LICENSE, telling your story.
BUTTERWORTH: Thank you, Richard.
ROTH: It's "Seoul Train," directed by Jim Butterworth. Sunday, Monday, Tuesday this week at the Human Rights Watch International Film Festival. This is a film in which the main characters don't always succeed, including this woman, whose fate is unknown now, believed to be in North Korea.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (SPEAKING KOREAN)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING SPANISH)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROTH: Acknowledgment from a country he infuriated, but it was too late. U.S. Secretary of State Rice calls for a moment of silence for former Mexican U.N. Ambassador Adolfo Aguilar Zinser, who died last weekend in a car crash in Mexico. Zinser had lobbied against the last Iraq War resolution in 2003.
Zinser was Mexico's man at the United Nations for nearly two years. He received kudos at the Security Council when he departed. He had also accused the United States of spying on the offices of nations whose votes were being sought in support of that Iraq resolution, but when Zinser said in a speech in Mexico that the United States treated his home country as its backyard, he was recalled as his country rep by President Fox, a man he worked with on his groundbreaking election.
After the news, shock back at the United Nations.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KOFI ANNAN, U.N. SECY.-GEN.: He has lots of friends here in this building. He is somebody who went about his work with wit, a sense of humor and intensity, which really endeared him to most of his friends here.
HERALDO MUNOZ, CHILEAN AMB. TO U.N.: I met him in the 1970s, when Chile was struggling for democracy and Mexico was a country that was very much in solidarity with our struggles, and we met in the academic and in the political worlds. So I think the international community has lost a great servant, a great man, committed to the idea of a sovereign United Nations, and we truly will miss him. This is shocking news, which underlies how feeble life is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROTH: Ambassador Zinser was liked by the U.N. press corps because he didn't hide behind his title. He offered badly needed analysis during the tense days before diplomacy failed to avert war. When Zinser appeared on DIPLOMATIC LICENSE as a private citizen in February of 2004, we discussed the role of diplomats at the United Nations.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROTH: Are ambassadors just supposed to be messengers?
ZINSER: I think that's the question, because ambassadors have to say things that represent the views of the countries based on facts and truths. That's the only way in which we are going to make peace, is when we talk to each other the truth. We don't have to be rude with each other, but we have to be diplomats. But always the truth, as it is said, has something good in it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROTH: Ambassador Zinser told me that day he would be writing a book and teaching. He also joined us on the television side as an analyst in Mexico. DIPLOMATIC LICENSE appreciated Adolfo Aguilar Zinser's candor and friendship.
That's our program. I'm Richard Roth, in New York. Thanks for watching.
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