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CNN LARRY KING LIVE
Search for Natalee Holloway Continues
Aired June 10, 2005 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, still no sign of 18-year-old Natalee Holloway. 12 days after the straight-A student vanished from her senior class trip to Aruba. And now, three more suspects are in custody; that's five total. But the three new suspects were already questioned and released right after her disappearance. Why arrest them now?
We've got all the latest from Aruba with Chris LeJuez, the attorney for one of the first suspects to be held. And reporting from the scene, CNN's Karl Penhaul.
Plus in Miami, Florida, the assistant state's attorney, Stacey Honowitz. The renowned criminologist, Casey Jordan, and the child protection advocate, Marc Klaas. His own 12-year-old daughter, Polly, abducted and murdered 12 years ago.
They're all next on LARRY KING LIVE.
OK, we're having difficulty contacting in Aruba, and as soon as we make that contact, we'll go right to it.
So, Stacey Honowitz, our prosecutor, what do you make of this arrest, non arrest -- they were arrested -- bring them back in. Is this a case -- do you think maybe they were premature with the first two?
STACEY HONOWITZ, ASSISTANT FLORIDA STATE ATTORNEY: Well, I can't say for sure if they were premature for the first two. The only thing that I can tell you as a prosecutor is, you know, I'm sure most people were shocked that they brought these three in. They were the last ones to be actually physically with her that everybody knew about. That witnesses knew about.
So, what I think happened is they asked them a couple of questions, heard some stories. They brought these two in, maybe something's been going on; maybe some talking has been going on while these two were in custody. But I think what happened is the authorities thought to themselves, "we need to ask them more questions. We need to bring them in, bring them into custody, because they are the last three that people saw them with."
So was it premature to call the other two in? I don't think so. I'm sure people think that, but I think, now with all five in custody you're going to hear if there was a link between the three original boys, and the two suspects that were originally taken in. KING: Karl Penhaul, we can now connect to Aruba. Our CNN correspondent on the scene. Bring us up-to-date on the latest developments.
KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the clock is ticking on the custody times. The three young men that were taken into custody yesterday: a judge will have to decide whether they can be kept in custody for a further eight days or some period over the weekend. Police are telling us that they've been undergoing interrogations in the course of the day, and the effort is still continuing to gather more evidence, because there's still no clue as to exactly where Natalee Holloway is, Larry.
KING: Casey Jordan, our criminologist who teaches at Western State University, is a consultant with the police as well. Is there an aspect of this beginning to look like Keystone Cops?
CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: You have to keep in mind that Aruba, while a developed island in terms of tourism, is unaccustomed to such disappearances. As we've established, they have a very low crime rate and I doubt that their law enforcement has any experience in conducting the sorts of investigations that we're accustomed to in the United States with our comparatively high crime rate.
So, I think it's reassuring that the FBI have been called in as consultants, and I think they're working behind the scenes with Aruban law enforcement and authorities. I don't know that it's Keystone Cops. I think that they are just trying to get the story straight. And I think that there are probably a lot of stories being told that are not matching up.
So, they did what they thought was right at the time. They've circled the wagons again, and they're trying to keep all five under close scrutiny while they get the stories on paper and decide what to do next.
Back to Aruba -- Chris LeJuez is the defense attorney for Abraham Jones, one of two former security guards being held on suspicion in connection with this case.
What does your client say to you about all this, Chris?
CHRIS LEJUEZ, ATTNY. FOR 1 OF 5 SUSPECTS IN HOLLOWAY CASE: Well, my client is still stating that he's innocent. I would like to correct something I heard just now. We have a very competent police force. They do a great job and they do solve most of the crimes here in Aruba.
KING: So you don't see any fault there, but yet, they've arrested your client.
LEJUEZ: Yes, they have. They must have had probable cause. I disagree with the prosecutor regarding the amount of proof needed to arrest someone, but the judge is the one who rules. That's the rule of law. We have a very good judicial system and it works right.
KING: What information, Chris, have they given you, that meets the necessary fact for your client to be held?
What have they told you?
LEJUEZ: Only circumstantial evidence. They have said that somebody saw my client walking in the pool area of the beach -- of the hotel, approximately at the hour that the girl reached the hotel in the middle of the night, or 2:00 in the morning.
KING: And your client denies that?
LEJUEZ: My client not only denies it, there is -- he has an alibi. He has people who saw him somewhere else. For instance, his wife. He went home with her and stayed there until the next morning, when he went to work.
KING: Stacey Honowitz, does it appear -- before we talk Marc Klaas's input -- does it appear strange that Chris's client is being held?
HONOWITZ: No, Larry, I don't think it seems strange at all. I think Casey's right. Nobody was trying to say that the police force in Aruba is not competent to do their job, but I think that they are not used to a story like this, or maybe a crime.
Of course, we don't know yet, and I think they do need help in carrying on an investigation. It is complicated. It is intense. There's forensics that could be involved. So, I'm not -- we're not saying that they're not competent, but they probably do need the help of the FBI. I don't think it was premature for these two men to go into custody. I think that what they're doing now is what every investigation happens -- you know, what's happening now is the normal procedure in investigation.
They're gathering evidence. They're taking statements, and it's very interesting, when people are in custody, and when arrests have been made, it's very interesting how much more evidence, or factual witnesses you might get. Because there might be people that know these three individuals that are in custody, that now will come forward, because they do have information.
Right now, it's a wait-and-see, and that's exactly what we're doing. I think having five suspects in custody is going to make a difference in this case.
KING: Marc Klaas, you've dealt with missing people for a long time, ever since the tragedy of your daughter. What's your read here?
MARC KLAAS, FOUNDER, KLAASKIDS: I'm the cynic in this group. I think these two guys were being scapegoated. I can't believe that these three fellows were let go on their word that they had dropped her off at the hotel, and that they were allowed to wander around for nine to ten days before they were picked up again.
I believe that if there was not such intense media scrutiny, and if the FBI was not involved in this, that these guys would probably go down for this. And these other three young gentleman wouldn't have been picked up again at all.
KING: What about the stories, Marc? But somebody is saying that she had sex with somebody?
KLAAS: Well, you know, they find her body, they are going to find -- if they find her body, and they find proof of the sexual assault, and find this fellow's DNA in her, then now he's got an alibi. Now he's explained himself away from that. I just -- I don't like this.
This was a straight-A student. This was a young girl who had a wonderful future. She was a responsible individual. I just find it very hard to believe that the stories that are being put out there about her, and her conduct that evening, are even true.
KING: Karl Penhaul, what are they saying there in Aruba about her conduct that night?
PENHAUL: The details that we've heard so far about her conduct, Larry, are based on from what we understand, two witness statements lodged in the dossier, presented against the first two suspects. Those two witness statements are from two of the men arrested yesterday, who have now become the three other suspects.
And what we understand from their statements, is that they say there was some fondling and kissing in the car after the group left the Carlos 'N Charlie's Mexican Bar, Larry.
KING: Fondling and kissing with all the boys involved?
PENHAUL: That's not what we understand. We understand that the fondling and kissing went on, from these witness statements, between Joran van der Sloot, the 17-year-old.
KING: We'll take a break and be back with more. We'll going to go to calls at the bottom of the hour. Everyone will jump in, and we'll get lots of time as we devote the full hour to this topic.
Mark Geragos -- we'll repeat that interview tomorrow night, and Bob Costas steps in and hosts LARRY KING LIVE on Sunday night. First time he's doing this. He's going to be our primary substitute host on this program when we vacation or get a night off. His subject will be depression.
We'll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVE HOLLOWAY, FATHER OF MISSING GIRL NATALEE HOLLOWAY: I don't know any of the details about any of these individuals. In fact, I don't even know their names. I came down here for one purpose, and that purpose was to find my daughter. And when I got here, our efforts were concentrated on search and rescue, and this is day 12. And that's where my efforts are continuing to be concentrated to.
(END VIDEO CLIP) (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANITA VAN DER SLOOT, MOTHER OF SUSPECT JORAN VAN DER SLOOT: I'm praying. I'm thinking about her, about her family. We're all thinking about her. And I don't know what to do more right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Casey Jordan, is there the hope, the possibility that she is being held somewhere? Or has, hopefully -- it's a weird kind of parents hope, run of with someone?
JORDAN: There's nothing wrong with hope. Statistically, no, the odds are tremendously against us recovering Natalee alive. But we had exceptions to that rule, and they're extremely rare, but I think we all remember Elizabeth Smart. And I think it's wise for the parents to keep their spirits up and hope.
As the days tick by, the hope about dwindle, but as Marc pointed out, if she has been murdered, the recovery of her body is going to be incredibly critical in solving this crime.
KING: Why such, Stacey, fragmentary information? We don't get what they have been accused of, what the charges might be, what the judge is looking into, none of that. Would that happen here?
HONOWITZ: You know what, Larry, this is a pending investigation. It is crucial that it remain amongst the judge and the lawyers that are involved. You don't want information seeping out to people. You don't want the investigation to be tainted.
So it's not unusual that we're not hearing all the facts of what the lawyers know and what the judge knows. And that's why, as we sit here, we can speculate all we want about the theory about what happened, we could talk about the legal, you know, procedure involved, but as far as knowing the actual facts, or what these men said in custody, or if they pointed the finger, or if their statements actually match up, we're not going to know the bits and pieces or that type of information. Not yet, at least.
KING: Chris LeJuez, are you annoyed that you, as an attorney for one of the accused or defendants, they're not accused yet. Are you annoyed that you don't have enough information?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: IFB is down. IFB is down.
KING: All right. Chris can't hear me.
Shouldn't he be annoyed, Marc Klaas.
KLAAS: Well, of course, he should be annoyed. And I think that her parents should be annoyed as well. I think that they should be sharing some information with her parents, as long as they aren't spreading that information around. These poor people are stuck in a no man's land now. They are completely dominated by fear. Their hope that started out as Mt. Everest is probably reduced to a speedbump at this point. And they are just absolutely, they seem to be hanging -- I feel so terribly badly for these people.
KING: Casey, isn't a lack of communi -- I know Stacey says it's understandable in an investigation, but shouldn't the lawyer know?
JORDAN: Well, I agree.
Again, the Aruban legal system is not the same as the U.S. system. One of the things that nobody has really brought up, which may be critical, is the fact that Mr. Van Der Sloot, one of the three young men in the car, the one who allegedly had sexual contact with her, his father is a very -- I understand -- prominent judge down in Aruba. And this could be one of the explanations why he was originally released.
But I think it gives us a great deal of faith in the Aruban legal system that he's in custody and that no ties with his father are going to change that.
KING: Chris, we had a miscommunication, and the IFB didn't work. Are you annoyed that you don't have all the information you should have?
LEJUEZ: I believe the explanation I just heard from the lady, I can't see her but she gave a good explanation regarding why they do not supply all the proof that they have at the beginning of the investigation. They have more investigation to do, and they will be doing that. And because of that, it's very normal, any criminal case that the police and the public prosecutor's office don't supply all the information that they have to the defense.
KING: So aren't you annoyed -- that may be the rule -- but you're you annoyed that you're left in the dark?
LEJUEZ: Well, I'm -- I -- they have certain rules here that they have regarding me regarding my client. I have to know what he is being accused of. And I have to have enough material in my possession to see if, at the moment that they have to extend the detention, if there is enough material to sustain that. And I haven't seen it up to now. I haven't seen it in the beginning. I have to challenged that, but the judge ruled that there was enough. And he's the one that's calling the shots.
KING: Is there any key information, Casey, that has erupted that points one way or the other to you?
JORDAN: I think that the story of the three young men in this car, and this is corroborated by Natalee's friends who saw her get in the car, they say willingly and voluntarily, I think this is really the key.
We don't know what about their stories is not matching up with one another's, or with the two security guards who were originally detained. But if the police can continue to hammer away at differences in the story, they can isolate those contradictions which are going on it the hinge as to what really happened.
You know did, these three young men really drop her off at the hotel? You know, there are cases where people hook up and go out voluntarily, and bad things happen, which are, no one planned. Sometimes accidents happen, maybe they went swimming. We can speculate about all kinds of things that happened, but clearly, somebody isn't telling the truth. We don't really know exactly who, but it's very important that the police try to figure out where the stories aren't matching up.
KING: And also Marc Klaas -- I'm sorry, you wanted say something Stacey?
HONOWITZ: Larry, what I was going to talk about was, Casey is 100 percent right. That's what we are talking about, speculating on what the theory as to what happened.
I'll tell you where there could be a major problem, is the car that these gentleman were in and that Natalee was in, was impounded 11 days after the fact. And so any kind of forensic evidence that we thought, or the police thought may maybe could lead to solving, if this was in fact, a crime might be gone by now or contaminated.
If there's hair in the car, certainly that doesn't lead to anything because hair transfers. We know that. But if there was blood, something of that nature in the car, that would tend to believe that a crime was committed. That could be down by the wayside now, because it did take a long time for the police to make this decision to rearrest them and then impound the evidence. So, we're really going have to wait and see.
JORDAN: Larry, Stacey is not only right about that, but focus on that tainted period when the three young men were originally detained and then freed. They had a lot of time, not only if there was evidence to try to cover it up, but to also get their stories straight and to get them in sync, which may have worked to the detriment of the two security guards, who were caught by surprise.
KING: We'll take a break, and we'll be right back. We'll go to calls at the bottom of the hour, more comments from our guests. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sitting out on a porch and can't remember if the son went out the night Natalee disappeared. This image haunts her, the moment her 30-year-old son, Mickey was dragged hand cuffed from the home they share on Aruba's eastern tip.
Her other son, 10-year-old Jonathan, remembers vividly the moment the police squad burst into their home to arrest Mickey last Sunday.
(END VIDEO CLIP) (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Marc Klaas, doesn't it puzzle you, a night out on the town, some young girls on vacation, can't be premeditated here. Something weird had to happen, right?
KLAAS: Oh, I agree with that. I agree, you know, with what Casey said about accidents do happen, and terrible things happen to good people. There's no question about that, but you know, this has to be an object lesson for parents who are sending their children off. We have to use the buddy system. I mean, even if they're 18 years old, they should be sticking with other friends. We keep hearing that we shouldn't be second-guessing what happened here, but they should not have allowed that young lady to get into a car with three locals. That never should have occurred, and I think people have to understand that once Americans go to a foreign land, we are subjected to their justice system. We are subordinated to a lot of different things. We are never a priority in any of these situations. We're just, again, very lucky that there is such a dependence upon tourism in this small country, and that they had asked the FBI to come in so that they can clear this thing up.
But you know, this is the kind of thing that can happen anywhere in this country. You have these Keystone Kops -- and I agree with what you said about Keystone Kops. They let these guys go. They let them get their stories together. They let them clean up the car. That never should have happened. That was the last place she was seen, and they let them drive off. This is unbelievable.
KING: Karl Penhaul, could someone logically have stopped her from getting in the car?
PENHAUL: I don't think so, Larry, because from what police have told us, Natalee Holloway knew the youngest of these three suspects arrested yesterday from at least the previous day. Police have said that Joran Van Der Sloot and Natalee Holloway met in the casino of the Holiday Inn. They were friends. And so they decided that they would get in the car together. Natalee said good-bye to some of her friends. Some of her friends later said when they saw her in the car, "why don't you get out and come home with us," she says, "no, thanks, I'm going with these guys."
KING: So Stacey, obviously she was going out to have a good time. I mean, that's obvious.
HONOWITZ: Yeah, it's obvious. And Larry, I wanted to say one thing. You know, I deal with cases -- well, cases not of this nature, but situations where I have young women all the time that go and leave a party with a guy, they go to, quote, "hook up" with somebody -- and I agree with Marc, in a perfect world, it would be fabulous for 18- year-old girls to have a buddy system, or to say to their girlfriend, "don't get in the car, don't leave." That's the logical thing to do, but reality...
KLAAS: This isn't a perfect world. This is a foreign country. This is a foreign country. HONOWITZ: Marc, all I'm saying is, I agree with you 100 percent. Nobody would like it more than me than to tell somebody, "don't get in a car. What are you doing? Why would you leave?" But you know what, you're not going to be able to control these kids. She was 18 years old. She was on vacation.
I don't know what happened. I'm not going to sit here and try to tell you what happened, but what we're hearing is that she voluntarily got in the car with these people. And in a perfect world, it would be fabulous for them to listen and to be smart, but you're not going to have that.
Girls do it all the time. Girls make stupid choices. Doesn't mean that they should be the object of foul play. Doesn't mean they should be a victim of a crime, but you're not going to be able to stop that.
Maybe some girls will learn a lesson from something like this, but you're never going to be able to control it.
KING: Chris LeJuez, where does your client tell you he was? Where does he say he was the night of her going missing?
LEJUEZ: Well, he told me that that night, he went to a soul beach party, with his wife, and a friend. They left their child at her mother's. After the party, they went to pick up the child, take the friend home, and after that, they went home to sleep. It was well after 12:00.
KING: And the wife and the friend have verified that?
LEJUEZ: They have verified independently, Larry, because I spoke to the wife. I didn't tell her what her husband had told me, and I asked her what happened that night, and she told me exactly the same story as her husband had told me before. And before that, her husband had told the same story to a colleague of mine, an attorney who works at my office, and so we have the third corroborated, three times they told the same story.
KING: So I come back to the obvious, Chris, what are they holding him for?
LEJUEZ: Yes, I couldn't agree more with you. I have the question also, and that's what I defended, and that's what I told the judge of instructions. I find, first of all, there is no proof that Natalee Holloway would not be alive today. Second, there is no proof of foul play. I haven't seen any, including forensics. So they are holding them on circumstantial evidence that points in the direction that they were or could have been present somewhere in the hotel area sometime approximate to the time that Natalee would have possibly disappeared.
KING: Casey, doesn't that sound like a stretch?
JORDAN: Well, I can tell you that the idea of two security guards who've never seen or known Natalee before being predators is not as likely, just based on what we know about these sorts of potential crimes, as an acquaintance-related crime of somebody who she may have met very recently and voluntarily went with. I mean, statistically, I've got to tell you, this is far more likely to be an acquaintance-related crime than a stranger crime. Stranger crimes do happen, but there seems to be nothing that I've heard about these two security guards that indicate any sort of history which would indicate that.
And I have to point out, Larry, that, you know, again, to play referee, I deal with 18-year-old girls on a daily basis as my students, and you know, you can be 18, but you can be incredibly naive and vulnerable.
The key, of course, is never to blame the victim, but the whole idea of victim precipitation, is you want to look at the behavior patterns and the choices that are made that could be corrected. And we know that substance abuse and alcohol plays a role in 85 percent of victimizations. So I think it's kind of critical to figure out whether the alcohol consumption really affected her judgment.
KING: We'll take a break and be back and go to your phone calls. We're discussing the incredible occurrence that continues to be a mystery in Aruba. You're watching LARRY KING LIVE. Don't go away.
KING: Our guests are, in Aruba, Chris LeJuez, the defense attorney for Abraham Jones -- he's on your left -- one of two former security guards being held on suspicion in connection with the disappearance of Natalee Holloway.
Stacey Honowitz is the assistant Florida state attorney specializing in sex crimes and child abuse.
Back in Aruba is Karl Penhaul, CNN correspondent on the scene.
In New York is Casey Jordan, criminologist who teaches at Western Connecticut State University and has been a police consultant as well.
And in Montgomery, Alabama is Marc Klaas, the founder of Klaas Kids, the Klaas Kids Foundation, and advocate for child protection and crime victims' rights. His 12-year-old daughter was abducted from their home and murdered in 1993. A paroled felon was convicted of the crime and is on death row.
Let's go to calls. Milpitas, California. Hello.
CALLER: Yes. Does anyone on the panel know the crime rate in Aruba and what could possibly be the motive for hurting this girl? Thank you.
KING: Karl Penhaul, do you have an answer?
PENHAUL: I do. I believe that so far this year, there have been two murders on the island. Both of those, I understand, from police, were drug addicts having a night fight between themselves. I understand so far this year, there have been approximately three rapes, all of those involving local women. Traditionally, there's no history of violent crime against tourists -- Larry.
KING: And any motive, any motive thoughts here at all?
PENHAUL: Certainly nothing that nobody has suggested to us so far, and certainly none of the evidence we've seen, Larry.
KING: To Gadsden, Alabama, hello.
CALLER: Yes. Since the FBI is involved, is it possible that lie detector tests could be given to all five? And also, since the military uses a satellite system all the time, is there any way possible that this could be used to track this car from the time of the abduction until the time they picked the car up?
JORDAN: I don't think any satellite system is going to be able to retrace the actions of the car. The question is to whether they can give a polygraph or a lie detector test to the five young men -- as far as I know, that's absolutely fair game. Whether it's admissible or can be used as probable cause is a question Chris would probably be able to answer.
KING: Chris, can they use -- can they administer and use a lie detector test in court?
LEJUEZ: No, Larry, they can't. We don't use lie detector tests here. It's not in our system.
KING: Stacey, you don't use them in Florida, do you?
HONOWITZ: No, they're not in -- you know, sometimes, Larry, we will administer a polygraph during investigation, but it's generally not admissible in court unless you have a stipulated polygraph, meaning that the results, either way, are going to -- you know, if he fails the polygraph, that's going to come in, too, but that's really on very, very special cases.
KING: Boca Raton, Florida, hello.
CALLER: Hello. Does anyone other than Marc believe this is a cover-up in order to protect the judge's son, buying them time to get Natalee off the island, destroy evidence, and get the story straight, and can the FBI interrogate those three, the first three?
JORDAN: Whether the FBI can interrogate them is completely up to the Aruba police, since they have jurisdiction here. Based on the sort of disappearance this is, I would lean a lot more towards questioning the three young men in the car, since these are the three young men that she was last seen with, and I'm always a bit cynical about relatives of people in law enforcement or judges, because it's not that there's an instant get-out-of-jail-free card, it's that very often people who are related to power and authority in some way have a mentality where they think they can get away with anything. And to me, that's one of the bigger red flags in this case.
I do think it's entirely possible that these two young security guards are being used as red herrings or a distraction technique by the three young men, to get -- buy them time to get their story straight.
KING: Marc Klaas, do you see any politics here?
KLAAS: Absolutely. I completely, Casey, I couldn't have said it better than Casey did. And I said it at the beginning, I felt that these guys were getting scapegoated, and I absolutely stand by that. The only thing that's pointing to these guys are the statements of the other three fellows, and those were the three fellows that were the last people that were seen with this young woman, and absolutely, they've had all of this time to doctor up their story, to get rid of any evidence. It's just -- it's a horrible situation.
I hope, and given the fact that the FBI is involved, and that the FBI investigates missing person cases better than any other agency on the face of the Earth, I hope that they're allowed free reign to try to get to the bottom of this case.
KING: Stacey, you still say it's correct to keep the two.
HONOWITZ: Listen, Larry, like I said earlier on the show and I said it the other night on the show, we are not privy to what was said by these two gentleman when they were taken into custody. Anything is possible, but I'm going to revert back to what I've said earlier. When these three guys who are now in custody, they're there, the other two were there, you're going to see bits and pieces of evidence come out now. People are in custody. They're going to start talking. They're going to want to probably, at some point, cooperate.
So we're going to have to wait and see what happens. We don't know about these first two. You can say that they're scapegoats, and certainly, I think it would have been wise for the police to keep the first three in custody, but we're going to have to see.
KING: We'll be back with more right after these words. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Family members say about 150 kids were on the trip, with at least 10 chaperones. Holloway's stepfather tells CNN the chaperones bear no responsibility for what happened, but the bar owner tells CNN there were no chaperones at the establishment in the early hours of Monday morning, when Holloway and some 20 other kids were partying there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Back to calls. Ft. Wayne, Indiana, hello.
CALLER: Hi, I was wondering what the plan of action was with the chaperones that evening. I chaperone my children, and we always have a plan of action set up ahead of time.
KLAAS: Well, I, you know, I wonder why they paid -- why they bought tickets for these chaperones. What was the point of even having those people in Aruba? It seems like they had absolutely no responsibility at all. The children were given free reign. There were no ground rules set out.
KING: Stacey, if you're over 18, a chaperone has no legal clout, does he or she?
HONOWITZ: Well, no. And in this case, what I've heard on television, I heard the mayor or somebody speaking from the school, who said that basically, like what Marc said, they were just there along for the ride. They really, you know, there wasn't a bed check, there wasn't a head count. So, what their role was really does need to be defined. We really don't know why they were over there.
KING: The mayor said that on this show the other night. Karl Penhaul, do you know the role of the chaperones there?
PENHAUL: Well, in talking to the family, to the stepfather, in fact, Jug Twitty, he said certainly there was no issue about bed checks, that the chaperones weren't there to do that. They were more adult facilitators, he described, and to make the arrangements, but not to keep a balance of checks and controls on the young adults along on this trip.
KING: Phoenix, Arizona, hello.
CALLER: Thank you, Larry. I got a question regarding -- I understand that divers were initially sent to the island to scope the perimeter of the island, and they did not do so. I was wondering if there has been a second attempt for these divers to scope the perimeter of the island.
KING: Karl, do you know?
PENHAUL: The FBI have told us that the divers didn't set a flipper in the water, and that they've now left the island. The reason they said that was because the government never pinpointed any search areas in the water where they could go, Larry.
KING: Stacey, that's the ocean all around that island, right?
HONOWITZ: Yes, Larry. And let me tell you something. I would think, now that these gentleman are in custody, if we learn more things and if people start talking, or if people start pointing fingers, you can bet that the FBI or the divers are going to be called back. Because they're probably, at some time, will be some answers as to where she is. I'm not saying that we know that she is in the ocean, but it was early on. And I can tell you that now, that the investigation is proceeding, they probably, at some point, will be brought back.
KING: Casey, if God forbid she's in the ocean, wouldn't the ocean swept her out to sea or would she have come back in?
JORDAN: I'm actually a SCUBA diver, but I have agree that if you cannot get a perimeter, a specific idea of where she may have disappeared and why, it really would be a fruitless, wild goose chase to send five divers into the ocean without a perimeter to search. Depending on the clarity, depending on rip tides, she absolutely, if, indeed her body was in the water could have been taken out to sea. There are many, many people who are never, ever recovered.
JORDAN: And that is a real possibility in this case.
KING: She could be out, Casey, in the middle of the Atlantic, right?
JORDAN: That's absolutely the possibility. The question is going to be, how did she get there. That's really what we need to do. And I think that answer is probably within that group of five detainees at this point.
KING: Chicago, hello.
CALLER: Hello. Larry, I love your show.
KING: Thank you.
CALLER: And my question is for Karl Penhaul, I think that's his name.
KING: Yep, that's his name.
CALLER: Do we know if the three young men are being represented by attorneys. And also, do they need search warrants in Aruba to search around the three young men's homes, where they live?
PENHAUL: The three young men are represented by attorneys. We, in fact, talked briefly with one of the attorneys of Joran Van Der Sloot, the youngest in this case today, and also to Joran's mother. And yes, they do need search warrants to go onto their properties. In fact, on Thursday, when these arrests were made, police did go into the two properties where the three victims lived -- two of them are brothers, as you know -- and they did carry out searches. The car was impounded, some computer equipment was also taken away. Although, police investigators haven't told us what other items were taken.
KING: Chris, was your client's home searched?
LEJUEZ: Yes, it was. And they took some items from his home.
KING: To Davenport, Iowa, hello.
CALLER: Yes. Hi, Larry.
CALLER: I'm concerned about being at the bar, and leaving with these three gentleman, as opposed to leaving with her friends.
CALLER: Her possibility of being given the date rape drug, has that been thought about?
JORDAN: It's definitely been thought about by me. What you're referring to is usually Rohipnol, some people call them ruffies. There's a variety of these things. And they are incredibly potent sleep aids, completely illegal in the United States. But many of them do come into the United States through South America.
So it's entirely possible that the phenomenon that they have seen in the United States, particularly in resort communities, and in resort bars, where somebody could slip the tablet or pay the bartender to slip a tablet into a drink.
The person who consumes this, odorless, tasteless, wouldn't know, but would fall into the deepest, darkest, dreamless sleep for 24 to 36 hours. This scenario has happened many times. We've seen it in the United States. Whether it's a possibility in Aruba, I think you should ask the people who actually reside there, whether they've had any cases of this. The problem is that usually they don't know that they've been drugged when they come out of it.
KING: Chris, have you heard of this in Aruba at all?
LEJUEZ: I have heard of this drug, Larry, but I don't know of any cases that happened in Aruba. In any case, it's not a problem. It's not a problem for the authorities here in Aruba. And I have never had the case to have to deal with the rape drug, the rape drug.
KING: Who is speaking, Stacey?
HONOWITZ: I've dealt with the Rohipnol drugs and the date rape down in Florida. And I can tell you that a lot of these drugs do come in from foreign countries, from foreign lands. And I think it's something that really does need to be investigated over there.
And what they would do is probably would want to speak -- and I'm sure they've spoke on it her friends to see if she was acting any differently. But that was just at the bar. Certainly this drug -- it's tasteless, it's odorless, just like Casey said -- certainly could have been slipped to her after the fact. And we're never going to know, because you are, you basically comatose when you're taking it. KING: We'll be back with more calls right after this. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOLLOWAY: Natalee was a straight a student. Had a full scholarship to the university of Alabama, and you know, had her future ahead of her, and you know. I was proud of her as a parent, and you know and again, as I said, my efforts here was to, you know, find my daughter.
And if you're a parent you could probably understand that you know, as a parent, you've got to find your children and you'll do everything you can to find your child.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Karl Penhaul, a viewer want to know two things, the drinking age in Aruba and the time line, do we know the time line between the time the three people picked her up and they say they dropped her at the hotel?
PENHAUL: Yeah. Drinking age 18-years-old. Time line, approximately 1:30 time of departure from the Carlos and Charlie's bar. And according to witness statements, sometime between 2:00 and 2:30. The witness -- or the new suspects say that they say that they dropped Natalee off at the Holiday Inn.
KING: Waria, Alabama, hello.
CALLER: My question is, I see that they confiscated the computer. I heard on a radio station that there could have been a possibility that there was a connection before the children went to Aruba.
KING: Anyone heard that?
KING: Yeah, Karl?
PENHAUL: Yeah, Larry, we have asked that question at press conferences with the police here. They say all lines of inquiry are open, and they are looking at possibilities that Internet connection may have been made between members of the party and some people on the island before the party departed from the U.S. to Aruba.
KING: You mean like "I'll meet you in Aruba next week?"
PENHAUL: That kind of thing. Police haven't told us conclusively, one way or the other way, that that did exist, but they do say that they're looking at that as one of their lines of inquiry. HONOWITZ: Larry, they have to investigate everything. I mea, and that's what they're doing. You know, we've heard that there's really no solid leads, or at least they're not telling us anything. So it's normal procedure for them. They went in on a warrant. They took things out of the home. They're going to follow anything that they can.
So the computer would be a natural progression in this day and age, with technology, that maybe there was some kind of connection beforehand, but we're going to hear about it, you know, probably in the coming weeks.
KING: New York City, hello.
CALLER: OK, I'm wondering if, do you think it's a possibility that the Aruban police initially released the three detainees in an effort to perhaps surveillance them or wire them, to get more incriminating information? Is this legal in Aruba?
JORDAN: I think that if this were the United States, that would make absolute sense. That's why they always say when they release somebody, "don't leave town," and a lot of times that is when they trail them and get the evidence they need.
But I don't think we have any indication that that's the case in Aruba. I absolutely do think the Aruban police are competent. I think that the fact that they are seeking help from the United States shows that they're not territorial, and they want help in any way they can get it. But I think maybe Chris has a better idea as to whether or not they would have been surveilled during that 10-day period. I would hope that they had been.
KING: Chris, do you know?
LEJUEZ: I don't know. What I do know is that we have a very competent police corps. If they had any reason to do so, they surely would have done it, but they would not release the information if it would jeopardize the investigation they're doing right now.
KING: We'll take a break and be back with more. Don't go away.
KING: We're back. Karl Penhaul, you wanted to add something about when the arrests were made?
PENHAUL: About the timing of those arrests, Larry. The chief prosecutor has told us that she says that the timing of those arrests yesterday have been tactical. You'll remember that the three were questioned shortly after Natalee's disappearance, never detained, never taken into custody, and they were questioned at that stage, but the prosecutor says the timings were tactical.
KING: Lawrence, Kansas, hello.
CALLER: Yes, hello. Thank you for taking my call.
CALLER: I just needed to ask, in our local newspaper on May 17th, there was an article about an elderly couple missing from a cruise line between Aruba and Barbados. And I wondered if anybody knew this to be true, because I thought how strange that then a couple of weeks later Natalee would come up missing.
KING: Anybody heard anything about that? Stacey?
HONOWITZ: No, I didn't hear anything, Larry.
KING: Because most cruise lines in the Caribbean go out of Miami, don't they?
HONOWITZ: Yeah. But I didn't hear anything about a missing couple.
KING: What do you make of the term, "tactical" by the prosecutor?
KING: Yeah, you're the prosecutor.
HONOWITZ: Oh, are you talking -- I'm sorry, I didn't know you were talking to me, Larry, I'm sorry.
You know, it's a tactical decision. It happens all the time. I think they were arrested 6:30 in the morning.
You know, I just want to go back to one thing. We were talking about whether or not the police were competent and whether or not these gentlemen were under surveillance at the time, and Casey mentioned that she would hope that they were, as I would, too. We're not trying to say that this police force is not competent, but we don't know the sophistication. I think that's the difference. And I think what we do is we compare what goes on in Aruba with what goes on in the United States, where certainly there's devices put on cars to track, just like in the Scott Peterson case. There's controlled phone calls that are made to people that are suspects, and in this case, the decision was made to let them go. We don't know what the reason is. And then, I guess after careful consideration, and maybe evidence that we have not heard as of yet, they decided to make the arrests.
They did it at 6:30 in the morning, and I bet that they were, at some point, watching them.
KING: Would you bet the same thing, Casey?
JORDAN: Yeah. That term, "tactical" gives me a great deal of new hope.
Keep in mind that just because we don't know all the facts, I absolutely agree with Stacey. I think they are just investigating this into the ground. And the more you release to the media, the more chance you have of compromising the case, should you get results, should it ever go to trial. And if it was tactical, that indicates that they probably were waiting for more evidence, and there could be a lot going on behind the scenes that we don't know, and I think that that's probably a good sign, that we don't know everything, because it means that something may be breaking soon.
KING: Marc Klaas, you're in favor of more openness, right?
KLAAS: Well, you know, I have to agree with what they're saying. But here's what we have been told, and everything that's coming from these three young gentleman, first pointing the finger at these two security guards, and then absolutely assassinating Natalee's character, by saying that she had sexual contact with one of them in front of two others, and that she absolutely fell out of the car when they returned her to the hotel.
I just think it's terrible what these characters are getting away with or seemingly getting away with.
HONOWITZ: Marc, can I ask you a question honestly?
KING: Quickly, quickly.
HONOWITZ: That's exactly what happens. You know that for a fact. In any criminal case where there's a victim involved, that's the strategy. That's what they do. They go after the victim. So it's not surprising. Doesn't mean that what they did was right. Of course not, and it's terrible what they're doing. But in every case that involves a victim, that's exactly what you see, character assassination on the victim of this case. It is terrible.
KLAAS: It's abhorrent that these three guys can be saying these kinds of things and that this whole case seems to be hinging on that.
KING: Thank you all very much. We have not seen the last of it, nor, of course, have we seen the last of our covering it. Chris LeJuez, Stacey Honowitz, Karl Penhaul, Casey Jordan and Marc Klaas.
A couple of program reminders. Tomorrow night, we will repeat our interview with Mark Geragos. On Sunday night, Bob Costas will fill in. He's going to be one of our major fill-in hosts on LARRY KING LIVE when we vacation or get a night off, and he'll start Sunday night with a major show on depression.
Monday night, Mary Tyler Moore is our guest, and also on our program Monday night, all five of my children will be the guests, because on Tuesday I get the Father of the Year Award. Why I get it, I don't know. But the little ones and the big ones will all be there.
And in the Belmont tomorrow, last year I gave you the winner Birdstone. Tomorrow I am picking Giacomo with an outside chance to Indy Storm. Giacomo and Indy Storm. Watch that tomorrow at the Belmont.
Right now, we go to New York, and immediately the picture gets more glamorous, because Aaron Brown is off tonight. Look who's hosting.
PAULA ZAHN, GUEST HOST, NEWSNIGHT: You're very kind.
KING: Our very own Paula. I like to say Paula. To pronounce the u.
ZAHN: Paula. It always sounds much better that way than the way I grew up with it sounding.
So what did you do, study the daily racing form all day long today, Larry?
KING: I do. Yeah, I do that a lot. It's more interesting than the world.
ZAHN: Second question for you...
KING: And it's more complicated.
ZAHN: ... did your kids have anything to do with you being nominated for this Father of the Year Award?
KING: I have no idea. I have no idea why I got it. Anyway...
ZAHN: You're going to find out next week.
KING: All right let me do the intro. And now, "NEWSNIGHT" with Paula Zahn.
ZAHN: Thanks, Larry. Have a great weekend. Appreciate the send-off here.
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