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Nancy Grace

Nancy Grace for June 10, 2005, CNNHN

Aired June 10, 2005 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news. An American girl, an 18- year-old beauty on her senior trip, high school senior trip to Aruba, vanishes into thin air. Tonight, the son of an Aruban judge remains behind bars in connection with the disappearance of Natalee Holloway. Aruban officials have less than 24 hours to decide whether to keep him behind bars. As of tonight, no sign of the girl. Could Natalee still be alive?
And we go live to California. We are in a verdict watch in the Michael Jackson child sex trial.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. And I want to thank you for being with us tonight.

Tonight, we are on verdict watch in the Michael Jackson child sex trial. The jury bore down hard today, locked in a jury room. No verdict yet.

And the intense search across the tiny island of Aruba goes on for the missing American girl Natalee Holloway. Five suspects behind bars tonight, but still no sign of Natalee.

Tonight, in Aruba, defense attorney for the suspect Abraham Jones, Chris LeJuez is with us. In Santa Barbara, defense attorney Debra Opri. In Atlanta, defense attorney Penny Douglas Fir (ph) and felony prosecutor Eleanor Dixon. In New York, psychotherapist Caryn Stark.

But first, let`s go to Aruba and CNN correspondent Karl Penhaul. Karl, explain to me, they have got 24 hours and they`ve got to decide whether to keep the judge`s son behind bars or let him go?

KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Indeed, with all those three suspects, what police are doing right now is gathering more evidence, putting together the dossiers along with prosecutors, and then they`ll have to take a decision as to whether to keep these men in jail for a third appearance so that the investigations can continue, Nancy.

GRACE: Well, you know what? Maybe I`m crazy, but can they just decide to keep them there indefinitely? Don`t they have up to about 116 days before they have got to cut them loose?

PENHAUL: That is what I understand. If they decide to formally charge them and then take these cases to trial, then the trial will have to go on before the 116-day time period, from what I understand, Nancy.

GRACE: Karl Penhaul, is it true that authorities have now expanded the search to nearby islands? What does that mean?

PENHAUL: Prosecutors have told us that they are in touch with their colleagues in South America. Obviously, Venezuela, very close by, and 19 miles, I believe, by sea from Aruba. They haven`t said, though, if there`s anything specific that`s leading to those countries or if it`s just one of many hypotheses, because as you know, Nancy, there`s nothing right now, no evidence, to indicate whether Natalee is alive or dead, on the island or somewhere else.

GRACE: You know, Karl Penhaul, the other night -- Elizabeth, if you could show that map again -- you and I were talking about how, hey, the island is only 19 miles long, six miles wide.

Well, I got in the car today and drove 20 miles without stopping. It`s a long way, through trees, through wilderness, through the scrub that grows there near the ocean. But it concerns me, Karl, that they are now expanding the search off the island. It suggests to me they believe she may have been taken by force off the island.

PENHAUL: I don`t think that this news really indicates any extension of the investigations that already have been going on. It`s merely that they`re stipulating this. It`s merely one of the hypotheses, one of several hypotheses. They do continue to search here on the island, but as you say, even on an island 19-by-6 miles, it`s still a lot of area, a lot of scrub, a lot of barren land to search, Nancy.

GRACE: We are live in Aruba with CNN correspondent Karl Penhaul. Not only him, but the defense attorney for one of the suspects behind bars tonight. Shortly, we will be joined by a representative from the district attorney`s office there.

Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANITA VAN DER SLOOT, SUSPECT`S MOTHER: He`s an honor student. He participated in model United Nations several times. He is a good speaker. He loves history, economics, politics. But his favorite subject is physical education, sports. And he`s an athlete, as well as in tennis and soccer. He enjoys being active. And he`s just a very spontaneous, open, 17-year-old teenager.

It is just a terrible time. And, of course, we tried to go through every day life as good as possible, following the news, being concerned, thinking about the family. He went to school normally, because he`s in his exam year, so he`s just before his graduation. We try to do everything as normal as possible.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: This is a picture of her son, suspect Joran van der Sloot, pictured here. It`s on his own Web site. He has not been formally charged as of tonight.

Straight back out to Aruba, standing by, CNN correspondent Karl Penhaul. Karl, what can you tell me about this young man, Joran van der Sloot?

PENHAUL: As we`ve heard a little from his mother today, when we had a conversation with her, he is a good student. In fact, they`ve just had exams there, and we hear he`s passed his exams with flying colors.

But he is a big sportsman. We understand he`s a baseball fan, above all, but he`s a physical guy. He likes his sports, Nancy.

GRACE: Well, interesting. Isn`t he the son of an Aruban judge?

PENHAUL: Certainly, what we could qualify as the son of an Arubian justice official. It`s difficult to compare like with like because of the differences in the justice systems. But certainly, yes, the son of a senior Arubian justice official.

GRACE: I want to go to Chris LeJuez. He is the defense attorney for another of the suspects there in Aruba. We`re talking about missing 18- year-old girl Natalee Holloway, an American beauty. She had a full -- speaking of being a good student, she was a straight-A student in high school and has a full scholarship waiting for her at the University of Alabama, if she ever makes it home, if she makes it off the island of Aruba.

To defense attorney for Abraham Jones, another of the suspects, Chris LeJuez is with us. Chris, have you learned any more about the evidence against your client? Your client is one of the two security guards, right?

CHRIS LEJUEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY FOR ABRAHAM JONES: That`s right. I haven`t heard anything more regarding the proof or the evidence.

GRACE: Well, Chris, are they going to hold your client indefinitely until they can gather more evidence? How long are you looking at for your client behind bars?

LEJUEZ: No. We have a very -- we have a code of procedures in criminal cases. We follow that. It has stated in there that you have to prove to the judge of instruction, you have to show him the probable cause to keep any suspect in detention for a long period of time.

The first eight days, a judge will look at the proof and decide whether or not there is enough evidence to keep him for another eight days. And after those eight days, he look at the proof again, because every time, the requirements to keep a person longer in detention become heavier.

GRACE: We are live in Aruba. Here in the studio with me, a felony prosecutor, and a felony defense attorney, to Eleanor Dixon. Eleanor, how do you think, if at all, the episode with the runaway bride Jennifer Wilbanks has affected the way everyone has -- well, many people -- have looked at this case?

ELEANOR DIXON, CRIMINAL ATTORNEY: Well, maybe it`s given people a little bit of pause to go back and see -- search some other avenues, perhaps she ran away. However, I think the difference in this case, we`re talking about an 18-year-old girl who doesn`t have the resources that Jennifer Wilbanks had and certainly not the motivation to run away.

GRACE: Do you think, Penny Douglas Fir (ph), that people are more jaded now when a woman disappears? I`m not talking about a child. But when an adult disappears, after Wilbanks, a lot of people, a lot of court- watchers believe, "Well, give it a few days. They`ll pop up."

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, of course they are. But I think, if you look at Wilbanks` record, it`s obvious that she had some psychological problems, Nancy. I think she had been prosecuted three times before she ran away this last time. This girl, I think, has an exemplary record and has had no prosecution, has had nothing but perfect records with school and everything else.

GRACE: Very quickly, before we go to break, go back to Aruba, please, Elizabeth, to Karl Penhaul, the CNN correspondent there on the story.

Karl, is it true that Aruban authorities have now requested help from South American authorities?

PENHAUL: Not specifically help from South American authorities but Aruban authorities have been in touch with their colleagues in South America. Venezuela, obviously, being the closest, nearby country. Colombia being another neighboring country, pretty close by.

But in a sense, this is merely a restatement of what has been going all along, talking to authorities in the surrounding countries, and of course, continuing cooperation with U.S. authorities, Nancy.

GRACE: Very quickly going to break, Karl Penhaul, this young man, the son of the Aruban judicial employee, I guess you would call them there, was he the one that told cops he was kissing Natalee in the back of the grayish-silver Honda that night?

PENHAUL: That is what we understand. In the evidence that has so far been put in some of the dossiers presented as evidence against the first two suspects, his witness statement isn`t there. But we understand, from the witness statements of the two other suspects arrested yesterday, that that is what they say. They do say that Joran van der Sloot was kissing Natalee. And we do understand from police that Natalee and Joran met the night before in the Holiday Inn Casino, Nancy.

GRACE: We`ll be back with more facts as they emerge from Aruba. Eighteen-year-old American girl Natalee Holloway still missing. Is it possible she is alive on Aruba or has she been taken off the island? Please stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVE HOLLOWAY, MISSING GIRL`S FATHER: This island is only approximately 100 square miles. And we had the thought that, you know, coming in here, that, hey, we would find her easy. And we`ve learned that, just through our efforts in ground searching, thousands of people walking the beaches inland, riding three-wheelers, four-wheelers, I even spent approximately four to five hours in a helicopter crisscrossing the island looking in most of the obvious areas, and still nothing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANN JOHN, MOTHER OF SUSPECT MICKEY JOHN: I know to myself, my son will never, will never, will never put himself in this kind of situation. If you tell me my son might (UNINTELLIGIBLE) somebody a bad word -- I do it, too -- I will say, oh, yes. But with myself, with this way to try to kidnap a lady, I`ll say, no, no. I`d rather he`d kill me, if he do that instead (UNINTELLIGIBLE) because I don`t think my son is so dumb.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us.

We are live in Aruba with the mystery of a missing American girl, 18- year-old Natalee Holloway. She was just away on her high school senior trip, full scholarship to University of Alabama waiting on her. She has disappeared.

When the cops got to her hotel room, the Holiday Inn, right on the beach in Aruba, her bags were neatly packed, her passport there, her purse, her money, everything. The only thing missing was Natalee and her driver`s license.

Tonight, let`s go straight back down to Aruba. With us now, the spokesperson for the Aruba prosecutor, Vivian Van Der Biezen.

Thank you, Vivian, for being with us. Vivian, my first question, what evidence do you have, if any, that links these five men to Natalee`s disappearance?

VIVIAN VAN DER BIEZEN, SPOKESPERSON FOR ARUBA PROSECUTOR: Well, Nancy, right now, we are talking about we have a reasonable suspicion that these five men have something to do with the disappearance of Natalee, and that`s what we are investigating right now.

GRACE: Vivian, how long can you hold them before formal charges are brought?

VAN DER BIEZEN: Well, you can hold a suspect, in general, for a period of ten days before the prosecutor has to present formal charges to the judge.

GRACE: What we are showing you, everybody, is a grayish-silver Honda as it is being impounded. We believe that may be the car that Natalee left the bar, it`s a bar-restaurant, Carlos and Charlie`s, there on the island of Aruba that evening.

There were classmates there. They saw her leave. She left with three young men she had met there at the bar, possibly the night before.

Back to Vivian Van Der Biezen. She is the spokesperson for the local prosecutor there. Do you plan to formally charge these men? And if so, when?

VAN DER BIEZEN: Well, the first suspects, their period will be over next Wednesday. So at that time, if the prosecutor decides to keep them for a longer time in detention, she will have to show the judge that she will have enough proof, enough evidence to support her charges.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VAN DER SLOOT: I`m praying. I`m thinking about her, about the family. We`re all thinking about her. And I don`t know what to do more right now.

JOHN: The problem is now simply, they have (UNINTELLIGIBLE) question (UNINTELLIGIBLE) because once you are black -- I`m in Aruba 26 years. I`m not Arubian, and I cannot, will not -- they will (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Back down to Vivian Van Der Biezen. Vivian, my question to you, regarding these five men in custody, is there any physical evidence linking them to Natalee`s disappearance?

VAN DER BIEZEN: Well, Nancy, we are investigating that right now. And giving more information on this, we will jeopardize our investigation. So I`m sorry, but I cannot elaborate on this.

But I would like to state that you mentioned earlier a period of detention. I would like to state that this refers to a maximum period. In general, the prosecution would always like to bring a case forward as soon as possible.

In general, we bring cases before the judge in about two or three months. And it`s always depends on the difficulty of the case, if the investigation can be closed at an earlier time. So the period of 116 days is really a maximum term. But always, when the prosecutor asks for an extension of the detention period, the judge will review it.

GRACE: Very quickly back to Vivian Van Der Biezen. Why is it that the defense attorneys for the other four have not been allowed to see this Dutch boy`s statement, the son of the Aruban judicial official?

VAN DER BIEZEN: This is because when a defense attorney has a client, then the defense attorney will have only the statements that relate to his clients. If the defense attorney doesn`t have information about one of the suspects, this means that this suspect did not have any accusations against his client.

GRACE: Very quickly, break, and to "Trial Tracking." Last week, Texas authorities took temporary custody of a 12-year-old cancer patient, Katie Wernecke, after a tip on possible parental neglect. Now, her parents are in court to block the state from giving their daughter radiation treatment for cancer. Texas Child Protective Services say Katie`s life is in danger if this 12-year-old girl does not get medical treatment for deadly cancer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KATIE WERNECKE, 12-YEAR-OLD CANCER PATIENT: I feel great. I don`t need radiation treatment. And nobody asked me what I wanted. It`s my body.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VAN DER SLOOT: He was not upset. He understood the police. He was quiet. He was open. He helped the police as much as possible. He was willing to speak to the parents. He was willing to help in anything, and he had a kind of quietness.

And he said, "Mom, don`t be upset, because everything will be fine. I know I`m innocent. I didn`t do anything." And in a very almost naive way, he was very open with us, told us everything what happened.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us.

Let`s go straight back down to Aruba. We were speaking with a representative from the district attorney`s office.

Back to Karl Penhaul, CNN correspondent in Aruba. Karl, we know that this silver-gray Honda was impounded, 11 days too late, in my opinion. I`m shocked that they released the car, let it sit there for 11 days, knowing that Natalee had left Carlos and Charlie`s in that car. Who knows what blood evidence, semen evidence, fiber evidence off her clothes, her hair, fingerprints may have been lost in 11 days? But all that aside, whose car is it?

PENHAUL: This appears to be the car of the family from Joran van der Sloot. We haven`t got confirmation of precisely whose car it is. Also, Nancy, we don`t have confirmation from the police at this stage whether, in fact, this was the car that they traveled in or if they were traveling in a car from the other two suspects, the two brothers who were also arrested at the same time. Although in these raids, only one car was detained, so we suspect this is that car, Nancy.

GRACE: To Chris LeJuez, defense attorney for Abraham Jones, Chris, is there some sort of a hearing tomorrow?

LEJUEZ: Not as far as I know, Nancy. I have not been advised of it, and I will be apprised when there will be the next hearing on this case.

GRACE: To Karl Penhaul. It`s my understanding that authorities had to decide in the next 24 hours whether to hold the suspects or release them. Does that require a court hearing?

PENHAUL: There are a number of timelines running here, Nancy. Of course, one timeline for the two suspects. Their next appearance before a court or before a judge of instruction to decide the next step will be next week, we understand Wednesday.

The timelines for the three suspects who were detained yesterday, doing the calculation, will be a period of six hours, then following that, two days. So we would expect sometime over the weekend for a judge of instruction to decide if there`s enough evidence there to continue to hold them in custody pending further investigations, Nancy.

GRACE: Karl, what`s the status of the search? I was overwhelmed when I learned FBI divers came to the island and never put one toe in the water. Nobody has been diving for Natalee Holloway. I don`t understand that. Why?

PENHAUL: The FBI has told us that the reason for that, Nancy, is because nobody from the government, nobody from the investigative team here, pinpointed any area that they could search. They also indicated that that`s also the reason they`re not bringing search dogs in.

As we said, 19 miles by six miles, it seems a small island, but all added up, it still makes an extensive area to search. You can`t just go and search that anyhow. You have to have some area to narrow the search down to pinpoint an area, Nancy.

GRACE: OK, all right. You know what, Karl? Call me crazy. But didn`t they say they all went down to the beach? Wouldn`t that be a great place to start with search dogs and divers?

PENHAUL: Certainly, Aruba`s search teams have searched the beach areas, particularly the sandy areas where something may have been buried.

GRACE: OK. Karl Penhaul joining us from Aruba.

Quick break. As you know, we at NANCY GRACE want very much to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Take a look at 13-year-old Bianca Noel Piper, last seen walking near her own home, Foley, Missouri, March 2005. She suffers a mental handicap. She could need medical attention tonight.

If you have information, please contact the Lincoln County sheriff`s office, 636-528-8546.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, people have assembled from all over the world, joined together by a common disconnect with reality and absence of logic.

(LAUGHTER)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, it`s pretty safe to say that they`re just all wacko for Jacko.

(LAUGHTER)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The only victim is Michael. He`s not the only fashion victim. I can see that.

(LAUGHTER)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Three months out here, supporting Michael. Do you realize you could have been head movie usher by now?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Of course, he`s innocent. Come on. Look. Would these faces lie to you? I`m going to be sad when this is over. See you at the next get-together.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Man, I thought I had problems when I was prosecuting cases! That`s not a circus. That`s not a festival. It`s not a stand-up comedy act. That is the Michael Jackson trial courthouse. That`s outside the courthouse. Let`s just hope and pray the jury isn`t hearing or seeing any of that.

Tonight, let`s go straight out to Santa Maria. Standing by, trial attorney out of the Seattle jurisdiction Anne Bremner. But first, to "Celebrity Justice" correspondent Jane Velez-Mitchell.

Jane, tell me about the deliberations. What`s happening? Is it true the jury has had questions and we don`t know about them?

JANE-VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": Oh, yes, Nancy. A flurry of late-breaking developments here at Santa Maria court. The jury wrapped up its first full week of deliberations. They went home after about 28 hours. That`s what they`ve logged in so far.

Now, when they went home at 2:30 this afternoon, basically, what we heard is they had asked no questions, no requests for readbacks, nothing. Well, CNN is now reporting that they, in fact, did ask questions, that the jurors actually did make requests for readbacks, and that the attorneys in this case met with Judge Melville at least three times today. Of course, that`s a big difference.

I got on the horn with a court official, who told me he couldn`t officially confirm that, but he pointed out the judge has scheduled for next Thursday a hearing on media motions and demands for more access to this very kind of information. We all know that the trial could be over by next Thursday. What the media had really been demanding was immediate access to this information, and the judge turned that request down. So it seems pretty clear that the judge wants to keep the media in the dark about what`s going on inside the jury room, but of course, we usually find out anyway.

GRACE: You know, Jane Velez-Mitchell, the press has been asking for the info on the case for some time now. Fat chance Melville`s going to hand it over now.

Very quickly, to Anne Bremner, Seattle trial lawyer there in the courthouse. Anne, as you listen to this, the fact that the lawyers have been called into the courtroom possibly three times today to have conferences with the judge, what can -- is there some entrance we don`t know about? How are they getting in and out of the courtroom? Is the courtroom locked? Where are they having these hearings?

ANNE BREMNER, TRIAL ATTORNEY: I know. Well, no one`s supposed to be in the courtroom at all, including lawyers, and we`ve all -- there so many people here, Nancy, you know, fans with their umbrellas up. All the media`s doubled in the last week. I mean, I can`t imagine that they got in three times and none of us saw them. You know, there was no rumor over it, but they got in there. And you know, for the readbacks, they have a right to be there, the lawyers, so we know they were there for readbacks, and of course, consulting on jury questions. As you know, the lawyers can object to jury questions. They can have input.

But unbelievable that the stealth of getting into that courtroom three times without anybody finding out except, first, CNN. And I just think we need to know what those questions are and what the readbacks were.

GRACE: Very quickly, to Jane Velez-Mitchell...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Jane, has Michael Jackson showed up at the courthouse?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, he`s not expected until the verdict is in.

GRACE: Do you think maybe he`s sick? Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAYMONE BAIN, MICHAEL JACKSON`S SPOKESPERSON: Mr. Jackson is...

GRACE: Where is Jackson in the hospital tonight?

BAIN: He was not hospitalized.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He would have a panic attack and actually has been hospitalized.

GRACE: The vapors.

REVEREND JESSE JACKSON, RAINBOW/PUSH COALITION: Michael is in excruciating pain.

BAIN: Michael Jackson is fine.

JACKSON: His physical pain is real.

GRACE: I`m feeling sick. I`ve got a fever, too.

BAIN: He`s been plagued with a back injury.

JAY LENO, HOST, "TONIGHT" SHOW: Well, as you know, Michael went to the emergency yesterday, had to go to the emergency room with back problems. Back problems.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He does have back pain. He does have pain.

LENO: See, he hasn`t learned, you fondle with your legs, not your back.

BAIN: Yesterday was not a good day at all.

Michael`s spirits were up today.

His spirits weren`t that high.

LENO: Have you seen Michael? Not looking good.

Wants to go to Africa and disappear.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Vitiligo is a true condition. It`s not -- it`s not a made-up Michael Jackson fantasy.

LENO: I think he has a better chance of disappearing in Sweden.

GRACE: I think I`m sick, too.

BAIN: ... he looks a little dehydrated and needed that he needed some electrolytes.

JACKSON: (INAUDIBLE) has these back spasms.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is very sick right now and has been for quite some time.

BAIN: He is not falling apart.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You know what? Eleanor Dixon, that shot of him jumping up on the SUV -- that was shortly after that, he claimed his back thrown out by police, a shoulder whiplash following his book-in. Remember that? Another illness. Do you remember when he showed up on crutches, claiming the spider bit him in the foot, at a prior court hearing?

ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Yes.

GRACE: To you, Penny Douglass Furr, what does it all mean? Whenever there`s a court case, Jackson gets sick.

PENNY DOUGLASS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, first of all, Nancy, if you do have a back injury and back problems, which he`s alleged to have, one of the things that will aggravate a back injury is to sit in one spot for several hours a day every day, which we know he`s been having to do in this particular case. And also, he`s under tremendous stress and pressure, and that could be aggravating the situation, also.

GRACE: Joining us from New York, Caryn Stark, psychotherapist. Caryn, weigh in.

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, I have no doubt that that back problem is related to stress, Nancy. It`s not unusual for people who have back problems to get much worse, and he has to be under a lot of stress and he has to be feeling really on the edge of his seat, so to speak. I also wonder if he`s not trying to get some kind of attention at this point, hoping that the jury might be hearing about the fact that he keeps going back into the hospital. Little sympathy, so to speak.

GRACE: Deborah Opri is with us, the Jackson family lawyer. Welcome, Debra. You know, Debra, speaking of illness, I think this trial has basically put another year on our all of our lives, Debra Opri.

DEBRA OPRI, ATTORNEY FOR JACKSON`S PARENTS: You know, I`m not going to call you people media locusts, but you know, it just -- every time I see a trial, I see the locusts of the media swarm through...

(CROSSTALK)

OPRI: ... there is nothing but debris.

GRACE: We`re giving you some birthday cake on air, Debra. Happy birthday. Another year.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: ... at the Michael Jackson trial.

OPRI: Let me just say this. I wish you`d get a janitor who works somewhere who can give you an opinion as to how he thinks Michael`s feeling. You know, I`m glad Mesereau issued the statement. I`m glad that people are finally starting to back off and not talk anymore. I`m glad the deliberations may, in fact, soon be over.

GRACE: You know, do you really believe that, Debra? Do you believe that the deliberations are going to end?

OPRI: Well, you know, Nancy, I`m going to fill you in on a little secret. Eventually, they have to.

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: Yes, well, all of us on the panel...

OPRI: You try...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: ... are trial lawyers, and we know it has to end sometime.

Jane Velez-Mitchell, back to you. Regarding all the questions that the jury has been asking, I know the judge is not releasing the documents, but they concern readbacks, correct? That means this jury has got some questions about some of the testimony. It is not about the law. They`ve got the jury charges in writing.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, it absolutely makes sense. I mean, there was testimony from more than 130 witnesses. So it certainly makes sense that they would want to have some readbacks. We were all shocked, as we milled about here, scratching our heads, how is it possible that there are no questions? A former prosecutor had said she`d never seen anything like this. So this makes a lot more sense.

And you know, as far as the scene here, there are now more than 2,200 credentialed members of the media, and the reports are that is more than the O.J. trial and the Scott Peterson trial combined. So to keep that many people sitting around, telling them absolutely nothing -- well, it`s chutzpah.

GRACE: You know, I wonder, Eleanor Dixon -- your specialty is child molestation cases, sex crimes -- if the victim -- alleged victim`s family sees all the coverage, sees all the hoopla around the courthouse in support of Jackson, I wonder how that makes this little boy accuser feel, if he knows about it.

DIXON: Well, how could he escape this, especially at his age? But my thoughts are, look at all this attention to Michael Jackson. What kind of pain, mentally, emotionally, must this victim be going through and has gone through at the hands of his alleged abuser. So my thoughts are more with the victim, rather than Michael Jackson`s back pain. I mean, he`s the one up on a car dancing.

GRACE: Well, it could also be dehydration or an electrolyte problem. Very quickly, Penny Douglass, readbacks are not uncommon. It`s not a big deal. It`s just a little speed bump in the case.

FURR: I agree, Nancy. I`m shocked that they`re not having more. As a matter of fact, one of the things that bothers me is that they do not have Michael Jackson there because I always have my client present for any questions from the jury or anything like that.

GRACE: It makes a huge impact. Penny, you`re right. Every time there`s a readback in front of that jury, they need more contact with Michael Jackson, according to most defense experts. Not happening. He`s not leaving Neverland and coming to the courtroom.

Very quickly, to tonight`s "All Points Bulletin." FBI and law enforcement across the country on the lookout for this man, Juan Carlos Mayorga, wanted in connection with the fatal shooting of a man in Dekalb County, Georgia, with an AK-47 assault rifle. Mayorga, 30, 5-6, 150 pounds, black hair, brown eyes. If you have information on this man, call the FBI, 404-679-9000.

Please stay with us, everybody, as we remember Eric Burri, 21, an American hero.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Vegas, baby! The place is up for grabs tonight! The wheels are turning (INAUDIBLE) odds now 50-50 even Michael Jackson will be convicted of all charges. Whoa! That`s a big, big change.

Right now, I`m hearing in my ear we have breaking news in the Michael Jackson case. Let`s go to CNN correspondent Ted Rowlands. Welcome, friend. What`s the news?

TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Nancy. We have several sources telling us tonight that the jurors asked for several portions of readbacks, several readbacks today, and that all of the readbacks were requested were portions of testimony from the accuser in this case. We`ve also been told by several sources close to the case that attorneys for both sides met with judge Rodney Melville three separate times and that jurors had a number of questions for the judge. So clearly, a very busy day in that jury room, moreso than we have heard up until now. But clearly, no verdict as of yet.

GRACE: Ted Rowlands, how are they getting in and out of the courtroom, to have these proceedings without anyone seeing it?

ROWLANDS: Well, we`re not sure if -- how it is taking place. In terms of where the readbacks are taking place, presumably, it would be in the courtroom. I can tell you this. There are barricades up and there are sheriff`s deputies everywhere around this courthouse, and even journalists saying they have to go use the bathroom are watched very closely. Clearly, they`re doing it without people`s knowledge, and they are very concerned about secrecy in this case. Michael Jackson, obviously, has not been present for any of these readbacks.

GRACE: You know, that`s incredible to me, Ted Rowlands -- we were discussing it here on the set with a prosecutor and a defense attorney -- that they would have readbacks, the jury would be brought in with no Michael Jackson sitting there, making eye contact with them. That is a huge, huge strategic blunder from the point of view of veteran trial lawyers. But hey, maybe Jackson didn`t want to come. You can`t make your client come to court.

Do we have any idea what portion of the accuser`s testimony it was?

ROWLANDS: No, we don`t. We have absolutely no idea. We know that it was several portions and that it all had -- was from the accuser, but we don`t know specifically what it was this jury wanted to hear.

GRACE: Hey, Ted, do we know if it was from his direct or his cross?

ROWLANDS: No. We don`t know specifics as to exactly what it was they wanted to hear. We just know that it was testimony while the accuser was on the stand.

GRACE: Ted, how long were they deliberating today?

ROWLANDS: They had a full day, 8:30 until 2:30. They take breaks throughout the day, and it`s up to them how long their breaks will be, so we can`t know for sure how long their breaks are, but if you factor in 15- minute breaks, they`re at it for five or six hours today. And this has been the -- another full day. Yesterday, they were only at it for two days (SIC), so clearly, they had a lot of work to do today with these readbacks, but haven`t made the decision as of yet, and they`re going home to spend time with their families over the weekend.

GRACE: Ted Rowlands, it`s very critical in my mind -- you said there were three separate readbacks of the same testimony, to your knowledge, tonight?

ROWLANDS: We know that there were three meetings with the attorneys with Judge Melville. We don`t know if -- how many readbacks there were. It was characterized as several to us by multiple sources.

GRACE: Interesting, Ted. So what I`m getting from what your source is saying is that the jury was brought in a couple of different times, several, to hear the testimony of the accuser on the stand. That says to me, Ted, that they heard some testimony from the boy. They went back and said, Well, wait a minute. Wait a minute. What about X? Let`s go back in. And they did the process a couple of times. If all the readbacks were from this one boy, and it took several times, that`s very, very probative, in my mind.

Ted Rowlands, any other update that you know of tonight? Any idea what the questions are?

ROWLANDS: None. No idea what the questions are. You know, the information -- it`s difficult to get information about this trial, to be honest. And so that`s what we have for you.

GRACE: Well, Ted Rowlands, that`s actually a lot. This is the first I`d heard as to what the readbacks were. You know, that could be very critical to determine where a jury is headed. CNN`s Ted Rowlands, on the scene at Santa Maria with a little bit of information tonight regarding where this jury is headed.

Very quickly, to veteran prosecutor Eleanor Dixon. Her specialty is child molestation cases. What does it mean?

DIXON: Well, I think it might be good for the prosecution. In my experience, when they ask for testimony of the victim, I`ve had many a jury come back guilty not long afterward. And I think it`s important, too -- many times, they ask for the child, either their taped interview or the actual testimony that they gave in court. And I think that`s to help them kind of rehash everything and remember things that the victim actually said, more important, in this case, than testimony from, let`s say, the mother of the child.

GRACE: Oh, yes. You`re not kidding because the reality is -- the general rule says if they want to hear a state`s witness, they`re going to go with a state`s verdict. If they want to hear from the defense witnesses, they`re going to go with a defense verdict. But also important, Penny, is whether they wanted the boy`s cross or his direct.

FURR: Exactly, Nancy, and that`s what we don`t know. And also critical here is I believe it`s apparent that Michael Jackson has followed the instructions of his defense counsel throughout. So as to respond to you earlier, I can`t imagine that he is there refusing to go to court, if his defense attorney is telling him to go to court. I just find it very concerning that he`s not there for all these readbacks.

GRACE: Penny, very quickly. I`ve only got a few seconds left. The significance of whether it`s cross or direct they want?

FURR: Oh, whether it`s -- I would think, if it`s cross, that they`re go with the defense. If it`s direct, they`re going with the prosecution. So it would be curious to know. I would be very curious to know which one they`re asking for.

GRACE: Quick break, everyone.

After becoming a victim of a violent crime myself and prosecuting violent felonies, I have an objection about how Lady Justice is tricked, how she is treated in our justice system. Part of the proceeds from "Objection" go to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.

Local news next for some of you, but we`ll all be right back. And remember, live coverage of the Jackson verdict watch Monday, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, Court TV`s "Closing Arguments." Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: What a week in America`s courtrooms. Take a look at the stories, and more important, the people who touched all of our lives.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

Two young children, Dylan and Shasta Groene, still missing. They have searched every nook and cranny surrounding the home.

This is Dylan and Shasta, 8 and 9 years old. We do have reason to believe they may still be alive.

Breaking news! Eighteen 18-year-old American girl Natalee Holloway goes on her high school senior trip to Aruba, disappears into thin air. Three more arrests go down for the three young men that escorted Natalee Holloway out of the bar that night.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was kissing with one of the boys.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Our primary goal is to bring Natalee back home. As I said from the beginning, I`m not leaving Aruba without her.

GRACE: Am I crazy, or is there a gag order?

Wait just a minute! I believe I saw the Reverend Jesse Jackson on "American Morning" on CNN.

JACKSON: He is amazingly resolute and strong in his convictions of his innocence.

GRACE: Two jet pilots on trial for getting a snootful and crash landing in the cockpit of a jetliner have a date with Lady Justice.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We the jury in Miami-Dade County, Florida, find the defendant Thomas Cloyd (ph), find the defendant Christopher Hughes guilty of operation of an aircraft while intoxicated or in a careless or reckless manner.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They were processed, fingerprinted in the courtroom and then handcuffed and taken off to the local jail.

GRACE: A horrific crime, gruesome discovery, one man`s body in three different suitcases. We are proud to have the New Jersey attorney general, Peter Harvey.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We believe we can prove that Mr. McGuire (ph) was killed and dismembered in New Jersey. He was shot in the head and he was also shot in the chest, .38-caliber weapon.

GRACE: You helped put fugitive and alleged child molester Donald Crawford where he belongs, behind bars. The FBI in Seattle received a call from one of our viewer that led them directly to Donald Crawford. Thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

I want to thank all of my guests tonight, but my biggest thank you is to you for being with us and inviting us into your homes. Coming up, headlines from all around the world and Larry on CNN. I`m Nancy Grace, signing off for tonight. I`ll see you right here, I hope, Monday night 8:00 o`clock sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END


Aired June 10, 2005 - 20:00:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news. An American girl, an 18- year-old beauty on her senior trip, high school senior trip to Aruba, vanishes into thin air. Tonight, the son of an Aruban judge remains behind bars in connection with the disappearance of Natalee Holloway. Aruban officials have less than 24 hours to decide whether to keep him behind bars. As of tonight, no sign of the girl. Could Natalee still be alive?
And we go live to California. We are in a verdict watch in the Michael Jackson child sex trial.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. And I want to thank you for being with us tonight.

Tonight, we are on verdict watch in the Michael Jackson child sex trial. The jury bore down hard today, locked in a jury room. No verdict yet.

And the intense search across the tiny island of Aruba goes on for the missing American girl Natalee Holloway. Five suspects behind bars tonight, but still no sign of Natalee.

Tonight, in Aruba, defense attorney for the suspect Abraham Jones, Chris LeJuez is with us. In Santa Barbara, defense attorney Debra Opri. In Atlanta, defense attorney Penny Douglas Fir (ph) and felony prosecutor Eleanor Dixon. In New York, psychotherapist Caryn Stark.

But first, let`s go to Aruba and CNN correspondent Karl Penhaul. Karl, explain to me, they have got 24 hours and they`ve got to decide whether to keep the judge`s son behind bars or let him go?

KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Indeed, with all those three suspects, what police are doing right now is gathering more evidence, putting together the dossiers along with prosecutors, and then they`ll have to take a decision as to whether to keep these men in jail for a third appearance so that the investigations can continue, Nancy.

GRACE: Well, you know what? Maybe I`m crazy, but can they just decide to keep them there indefinitely? Don`t they have up to about 116 days before they have got to cut them loose?

PENHAUL: That is what I understand. If they decide to formally charge them and then take these cases to trial, then the trial will have to go on before the 116-day time period, from what I understand, Nancy.

GRACE: Karl Penhaul, is it true that authorities have now expanded the search to nearby islands? What does that mean?

PENHAUL: Prosecutors have told us that they are in touch with their colleagues in South America. Obviously, Venezuela, very close by, and 19 miles, I believe, by sea from Aruba. They haven`t said, though, if there`s anything specific that`s leading to those countries or if it`s just one of many hypotheses, because as you know, Nancy, there`s nothing right now, no evidence, to indicate whether Natalee is alive or dead, on the island or somewhere else.

GRACE: You know, Karl Penhaul, the other night -- Elizabeth, if you could show that map again -- you and I were talking about how, hey, the island is only 19 miles long, six miles wide.

Well, I got in the car today and drove 20 miles without stopping. It`s a long way, through trees, through wilderness, through the scrub that grows there near the ocean. But it concerns me, Karl, that they are now expanding the search off the island. It suggests to me they believe she may have been taken by force off the island.

PENHAUL: I don`t think that this news really indicates any extension of the investigations that already have been going on. It`s merely that they`re stipulating this. It`s merely one of the hypotheses, one of several hypotheses. They do continue to search here on the island, but as you say, even on an island 19-by-6 miles, it`s still a lot of area, a lot of scrub, a lot of barren land to search, Nancy.

GRACE: We are live in Aruba with CNN correspondent Karl Penhaul. Not only him, but the defense attorney for one of the suspects behind bars tonight. Shortly, we will be joined by a representative from the district attorney`s office there.

Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANITA VAN DER SLOOT, SUSPECT`S MOTHER: He`s an honor student. He participated in model United Nations several times. He is a good speaker. He loves history, economics, politics. But his favorite subject is physical education, sports. And he`s an athlete, as well as in tennis and soccer. He enjoys being active. And he`s just a very spontaneous, open, 17-year-old teenager.

It is just a terrible time. And, of course, we tried to go through every day life as good as possible, following the news, being concerned, thinking about the family. He went to school normally, because he`s in his exam year, so he`s just before his graduation. We try to do everything as normal as possible.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: This is a picture of her son, suspect Joran van der Sloot, pictured here. It`s on his own Web site. He has not been formally charged as of tonight.

Straight back out to Aruba, standing by, CNN correspondent Karl Penhaul. Karl, what can you tell me about this young man, Joran van der Sloot?

PENHAUL: As we`ve heard a little from his mother today, when we had a conversation with her, he is a good student. In fact, they`ve just had exams there, and we hear he`s passed his exams with flying colors.

But he is a big sportsman. We understand he`s a baseball fan, above all, but he`s a physical guy. He likes his sports, Nancy.

GRACE: Well, interesting. Isn`t he the son of an Aruban judge?

PENHAUL: Certainly, what we could qualify as the son of an Arubian justice official. It`s difficult to compare like with like because of the differences in the justice systems. But certainly, yes, the son of a senior Arubian justice official.

GRACE: I want to go to Chris LeJuez. He is the defense attorney for another of the suspects there in Aruba. We`re talking about missing 18- year-old girl Natalee Holloway, an American beauty. She had a full -- speaking of being a good student, she was a straight-A student in high school and has a full scholarship waiting for her at the University of Alabama, if she ever makes it home, if she makes it off the island of Aruba.

To defense attorney for Abraham Jones, another of the suspects, Chris LeJuez is with us. Chris, have you learned any more about the evidence against your client? Your client is one of the two security guards, right?

CHRIS LEJUEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY FOR ABRAHAM JONES: That`s right. I haven`t heard anything more regarding the proof or the evidence.

GRACE: Well, Chris, are they going to hold your client indefinitely until they can gather more evidence? How long are you looking at for your client behind bars?

LEJUEZ: No. We have a very -- we have a code of procedures in criminal cases. We follow that. It has stated in there that you have to prove to the judge of instruction, you have to show him the probable cause to keep any suspect in detention for a long period of time.

The first eight days, a judge will look at the proof and decide whether or not there is enough evidence to keep him for another eight days. And after those eight days, he look at the proof again, because every time, the requirements to keep a person longer in detention become heavier.

GRACE: We are live in Aruba. Here in the studio with me, a felony prosecutor, and a felony defense attorney, to Eleanor Dixon. Eleanor, how do you think, if at all, the episode with the runaway bride Jennifer Wilbanks has affected the way everyone has -- well, many people -- have looked at this case?

ELEANOR DIXON, CRIMINAL ATTORNEY: Well, maybe it`s given people a little bit of pause to go back and see -- search some other avenues, perhaps she ran away. However, I think the difference in this case, we`re talking about an 18-year-old girl who doesn`t have the resources that Jennifer Wilbanks had and certainly not the motivation to run away.

GRACE: Do you think, Penny Douglas Fir (ph), that people are more jaded now when a woman disappears? I`m not talking about a child. But when an adult disappears, after Wilbanks, a lot of people, a lot of court- watchers believe, "Well, give it a few days. They`ll pop up."

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, of course they are. But I think, if you look at Wilbanks` record, it`s obvious that she had some psychological problems, Nancy. I think she had been prosecuted three times before she ran away this last time. This girl, I think, has an exemplary record and has had no prosecution, has had nothing but perfect records with school and everything else.

GRACE: Very quickly, before we go to break, go back to Aruba, please, Elizabeth, to Karl Penhaul, the CNN correspondent there on the story.

Karl, is it true that Aruban authorities have now requested help from South American authorities?

PENHAUL: Not specifically help from South American authorities but Aruban authorities have been in touch with their colleagues in South America. Venezuela, obviously, being the closest, nearby country. Colombia being another neighboring country, pretty close by.

But in a sense, this is merely a restatement of what has been going all along, talking to authorities in the surrounding countries, and of course, continuing cooperation with U.S. authorities, Nancy.

GRACE: Very quickly going to break, Karl Penhaul, this young man, the son of the Aruban judicial employee, I guess you would call them there, was he the one that told cops he was kissing Natalee in the back of the grayish-silver Honda that night?

PENHAUL: That is what we understand. In the evidence that has so far been put in some of the dossiers presented as evidence against the first two suspects, his witness statement isn`t there. But we understand, from the witness statements of the two other suspects arrested yesterday, that that is what they say. They do say that Joran van der Sloot was kissing Natalee. And we do understand from police that Natalee and Joran met the night before in the Holiday Inn Casino, Nancy.

GRACE: We`ll be back with more facts as they emerge from Aruba. Eighteen-year-old American girl Natalee Holloway still missing. Is it possible she is alive on Aruba or has she been taken off the island? Please stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVE HOLLOWAY, MISSING GIRL`S FATHER: This island is only approximately 100 square miles. And we had the thought that, you know, coming in here, that, hey, we would find her easy. And we`ve learned that, just through our efforts in ground searching, thousands of people walking the beaches inland, riding three-wheelers, four-wheelers, I even spent approximately four to five hours in a helicopter crisscrossing the island looking in most of the obvious areas, and still nothing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANN JOHN, MOTHER OF SUSPECT MICKEY JOHN: I know to myself, my son will never, will never, will never put himself in this kind of situation. If you tell me my son might (UNINTELLIGIBLE) somebody a bad word -- I do it, too -- I will say, oh, yes. But with myself, with this way to try to kidnap a lady, I`ll say, no, no. I`d rather he`d kill me, if he do that instead (UNINTELLIGIBLE) because I don`t think my son is so dumb.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us.

We are live in Aruba with the mystery of a missing American girl, 18- year-old Natalee Holloway. She was just away on her high school senior trip, full scholarship to University of Alabama waiting on her. She has disappeared.

When the cops got to her hotel room, the Holiday Inn, right on the beach in Aruba, her bags were neatly packed, her passport there, her purse, her money, everything. The only thing missing was Natalee and her driver`s license.

Tonight, let`s go straight back down to Aruba. With us now, the spokesperson for the Aruba prosecutor, Vivian Van Der Biezen.

Thank you, Vivian, for being with us. Vivian, my first question, what evidence do you have, if any, that links these five men to Natalee`s disappearance?

VIVIAN VAN DER BIEZEN, SPOKESPERSON FOR ARUBA PROSECUTOR: Well, Nancy, right now, we are talking about we have a reasonable suspicion that these five men have something to do with the disappearance of Natalee, and that`s what we are investigating right now.

GRACE: Vivian, how long can you hold them before formal charges are brought?

VAN DER BIEZEN: Well, you can hold a suspect, in general, for a period of ten days before the prosecutor has to present formal charges to the judge.

GRACE: What we are showing you, everybody, is a grayish-silver Honda as it is being impounded. We believe that may be the car that Natalee left the bar, it`s a bar-restaurant, Carlos and Charlie`s, there on the island of Aruba that evening.

There were classmates there. They saw her leave. She left with three young men she had met there at the bar, possibly the night before.

Back to Vivian Van Der Biezen. She is the spokesperson for the local prosecutor there. Do you plan to formally charge these men? And if so, when?

VAN DER BIEZEN: Well, the first suspects, their period will be over next Wednesday. So at that time, if the prosecutor decides to keep them for a longer time in detention, she will have to show the judge that she will have enough proof, enough evidence to support her charges.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VAN DER SLOOT: I`m praying. I`m thinking about her, about the family. We`re all thinking about her. And I don`t know what to do more right now.

JOHN: The problem is now simply, they have (UNINTELLIGIBLE) question (UNINTELLIGIBLE) because once you are black -- I`m in Aruba 26 years. I`m not Arubian, and I cannot, will not -- they will (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Back down to Vivian Van Der Biezen. Vivian, my question to you, regarding these five men in custody, is there any physical evidence linking them to Natalee`s disappearance?

VAN DER BIEZEN: Well, Nancy, we are investigating that right now. And giving more information on this, we will jeopardize our investigation. So I`m sorry, but I cannot elaborate on this.

But I would like to state that you mentioned earlier a period of detention. I would like to state that this refers to a maximum period. In general, the prosecution would always like to bring a case forward as soon as possible.

In general, we bring cases before the judge in about two or three months. And it`s always depends on the difficulty of the case, if the investigation can be closed at an earlier time. So the period of 116 days is really a maximum term. But always, when the prosecutor asks for an extension of the detention period, the judge will review it.

GRACE: Very quickly back to Vivian Van Der Biezen. Why is it that the defense attorneys for the other four have not been allowed to see this Dutch boy`s statement, the son of the Aruban judicial official?

VAN DER BIEZEN: This is because when a defense attorney has a client, then the defense attorney will have only the statements that relate to his clients. If the defense attorney doesn`t have information about one of the suspects, this means that this suspect did not have any accusations against his client.

GRACE: Very quickly, break, and to "Trial Tracking." Last week, Texas authorities took temporary custody of a 12-year-old cancer patient, Katie Wernecke, after a tip on possible parental neglect. Now, her parents are in court to block the state from giving their daughter radiation treatment for cancer. Texas Child Protective Services say Katie`s life is in danger if this 12-year-old girl does not get medical treatment for deadly cancer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KATIE WERNECKE, 12-YEAR-OLD CANCER PATIENT: I feel great. I don`t need radiation treatment. And nobody asked me what I wanted. It`s my body.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VAN DER SLOOT: He was not upset. He understood the police. He was quiet. He was open. He helped the police as much as possible. He was willing to speak to the parents. He was willing to help in anything, and he had a kind of quietness.

And he said, "Mom, don`t be upset, because everything will be fine. I know I`m innocent. I didn`t do anything." And in a very almost naive way, he was very open with us, told us everything what happened.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us.

Let`s go straight back down to Aruba. We were speaking with a representative from the district attorney`s office.

Back to Karl Penhaul, CNN correspondent in Aruba. Karl, we know that this silver-gray Honda was impounded, 11 days too late, in my opinion. I`m shocked that they released the car, let it sit there for 11 days, knowing that Natalee had left Carlos and Charlie`s in that car. Who knows what blood evidence, semen evidence, fiber evidence off her clothes, her hair, fingerprints may have been lost in 11 days? But all that aside, whose car is it?

PENHAUL: This appears to be the car of the family from Joran van der Sloot. We haven`t got confirmation of precisely whose car it is. Also, Nancy, we don`t have confirmation from the police at this stage whether, in fact, this was the car that they traveled in or if they were traveling in a car from the other two suspects, the two brothers who were also arrested at the same time. Although in these raids, only one car was detained, so we suspect this is that car, Nancy.

GRACE: To Chris LeJuez, defense attorney for Abraham Jones, Chris, is there some sort of a hearing tomorrow?

LEJUEZ: Not as far as I know, Nancy. I have not been advised of it, and I will be apprised when there will be the next hearing on this case.

GRACE: To Karl Penhaul. It`s my understanding that authorities had to decide in the next 24 hours whether to hold the suspects or release them. Does that require a court hearing?

PENHAUL: There are a number of timelines running here, Nancy. Of course, one timeline for the two suspects. Their next appearance before a court or before a judge of instruction to decide the next step will be next week, we understand Wednesday.

The timelines for the three suspects who were detained yesterday, doing the calculation, will be a period of six hours, then following that, two days. So we would expect sometime over the weekend for a judge of instruction to decide if there`s enough evidence there to continue to hold them in custody pending further investigations, Nancy.

GRACE: Karl, what`s the status of the search? I was overwhelmed when I learned FBI divers came to the island and never put one toe in the water. Nobody has been diving for Natalee Holloway. I don`t understand that. Why?

PENHAUL: The FBI has told us that the reason for that, Nancy, is because nobody from the government, nobody from the investigative team here, pinpointed any area that they could search. They also indicated that that`s also the reason they`re not bringing search dogs in.

As we said, 19 miles by six miles, it seems a small island, but all added up, it still makes an extensive area to search. You can`t just go and search that anyhow. You have to have some area to narrow the search down to pinpoint an area, Nancy.

GRACE: OK, all right. You know what, Karl? Call me crazy. But didn`t they say they all went down to the beach? Wouldn`t that be a great place to start with search dogs and divers?

PENHAUL: Certainly, Aruba`s search teams have searched the beach areas, particularly the sandy areas where something may have been buried.

GRACE: OK. Karl Penhaul joining us from Aruba.

Quick break. As you know, we at NANCY GRACE want very much to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Take a look at 13-year-old Bianca Noel Piper, last seen walking near her own home, Foley, Missouri, March 2005. She suffers a mental handicap. She could need medical attention tonight.

If you have information, please contact the Lincoln County sheriff`s office, 636-528-8546.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, people have assembled from all over the world, joined together by a common disconnect with reality and absence of logic.

(LAUGHTER)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, it`s pretty safe to say that they`re just all wacko for Jacko.

(LAUGHTER)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The only victim is Michael. He`s not the only fashion victim. I can see that.

(LAUGHTER)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Three months out here, supporting Michael. Do you realize you could have been head movie usher by now?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Of course, he`s innocent. Come on. Look. Would these faces lie to you? I`m going to be sad when this is over. See you at the next get-together.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Man, I thought I had problems when I was prosecuting cases! That`s not a circus. That`s not a festival. It`s not a stand-up comedy act. That is the Michael Jackson trial courthouse. That`s outside the courthouse. Let`s just hope and pray the jury isn`t hearing or seeing any of that.

Tonight, let`s go straight out to Santa Maria. Standing by, trial attorney out of the Seattle jurisdiction Anne Bremner. But first, to "Celebrity Justice" correspondent Jane Velez-Mitchell.

Jane, tell me about the deliberations. What`s happening? Is it true the jury has had questions and we don`t know about them?

JANE-VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": Oh, yes, Nancy. A flurry of late-breaking developments here at Santa Maria court. The jury wrapped up its first full week of deliberations. They went home after about 28 hours. That`s what they`ve logged in so far.

Now, when they went home at 2:30 this afternoon, basically, what we heard is they had asked no questions, no requests for readbacks, nothing. Well, CNN is now reporting that they, in fact, did ask questions, that the jurors actually did make requests for readbacks, and that the attorneys in this case met with Judge Melville at least three times today. Of course, that`s a big difference.

I got on the horn with a court official, who told me he couldn`t officially confirm that, but he pointed out the judge has scheduled for next Thursday a hearing on media motions and demands for more access to this very kind of information. We all know that the trial could be over by next Thursday. What the media had really been demanding was immediate access to this information, and the judge turned that request down. So it seems pretty clear that the judge wants to keep the media in the dark about what`s going on inside the jury room, but of course, we usually find out anyway.

GRACE: You know, Jane Velez-Mitchell, the press has been asking for the info on the case for some time now. Fat chance Melville`s going to hand it over now.

Very quickly, to Anne Bremner, Seattle trial lawyer there in the courthouse. Anne, as you listen to this, the fact that the lawyers have been called into the courtroom possibly three times today to have conferences with the judge, what can -- is there some entrance we don`t know about? How are they getting in and out of the courtroom? Is the courtroom locked? Where are they having these hearings?

ANNE BREMNER, TRIAL ATTORNEY: I know. Well, no one`s supposed to be in the courtroom at all, including lawyers, and we`ve all -- there so many people here, Nancy, you know, fans with their umbrellas up. All the media`s doubled in the last week. I mean, I can`t imagine that they got in three times and none of us saw them. You know, there was no rumor over it, but they got in there. And you know, for the readbacks, they have a right to be there, the lawyers, so we know they were there for readbacks, and of course, consulting on jury questions. As you know, the lawyers can object to jury questions. They can have input.

But unbelievable that the stealth of getting into that courtroom three times without anybody finding out except, first, CNN. And I just think we need to know what those questions are and what the readbacks were.

GRACE: Very quickly, to Jane Velez-Mitchell...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Jane, has Michael Jackson showed up at the courthouse?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, he`s not expected until the verdict is in.

GRACE: Do you think maybe he`s sick? Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAYMONE BAIN, MICHAEL JACKSON`S SPOKESPERSON: Mr. Jackson is...

GRACE: Where is Jackson in the hospital tonight?

BAIN: He was not hospitalized.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He would have a panic attack and actually has been hospitalized.

GRACE: The vapors.

REVEREND JESSE JACKSON, RAINBOW/PUSH COALITION: Michael is in excruciating pain.

BAIN: Michael Jackson is fine.

JACKSON: His physical pain is real.

GRACE: I`m feeling sick. I`ve got a fever, too.

BAIN: He`s been plagued with a back injury.

JAY LENO, HOST, "TONIGHT" SHOW: Well, as you know, Michael went to the emergency yesterday, had to go to the emergency room with back problems. Back problems.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He does have back pain. He does have pain.

LENO: See, he hasn`t learned, you fondle with your legs, not your back.

BAIN: Yesterday was not a good day at all.

Michael`s spirits were up today.

His spirits weren`t that high.

LENO: Have you seen Michael? Not looking good.

Wants to go to Africa and disappear.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Vitiligo is a true condition. It`s not -- it`s not a made-up Michael Jackson fantasy.

LENO: I think he has a better chance of disappearing in Sweden.

GRACE: I think I`m sick, too.

BAIN: ... he looks a little dehydrated and needed that he needed some electrolytes.

JACKSON: (INAUDIBLE) has these back spasms.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is very sick right now and has been for quite some time.

BAIN: He is not falling apart.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You know what? Eleanor Dixon, that shot of him jumping up on the SUV -- that was shortly after that, he claimed his back thrown out by police, a shoulder whiplash following his book-in. Remember that? Another illness. Do you remember when he showed up on crutches, claiming the spider bit him in the foot, at a prior court hearing?

ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Yes.

GRACE: To you, Penny Douglass Furr, what does it all mean? Whenever there`s a court case, Jackson gets sick.

PENNY DOUGLASS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, first of all, Nancy, if you do have a back injury and back problems, which he`s alleged to have, one of the things that will aggravate a back injury is to sit in one spot for several hours a day every day, which we know he`s been having to do in this particular case. And also, he`s under tremendous stress and pressure, and that could be aggravating the situation, also.

GRACE: Joining us from New York, Caryn Stark, psychotherapist. Caryn, weigh in.

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, I have no doubt that that back problem is related to stress, Nancy. It`s not unusual for people who have back problems to get much worse, and he has to be under a lot of stress and he has to be feeling really on the edge of his seat, so to speak. I also wonder if he`s not trying to get some kind of attention at this point, hoping that the jury might be hearing about the fact that he keeps going back into the hospital. Little sympathy, so to speak.

GRACE: Deborah Opri is with us, the Jackson family lawyer. Welcome, Debra. You know, Debra, speaking of illness, I think this trial has basically put another year on our all of our lives, Debra Opri.

DEBRA OPRI, ATTORNEY FOR JACKSON`S PARENTS: You know, I`m not going to call you people media locusts, but you know, it just -- every time I see a trial, I see the locusts of the media swarm through...

(CROSSTALK)

OPRI: ... there is nothing but debris.

GRACE: We`re giving you some birthday cake on air, Debra. Happy birthday. Another year.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: ... at the Michael Jackson trial.

OPRI: Let me just say this. I wish you`d get a janitor who works somewhere who can give you an opinion as to how he thinks Michael`s feeling. You know, I`m glad Mesereau issued the statement. I`m glad that people are finally starting to back off and not talk anymore. I`m glad the deliberations may, in fact, soon be over.

GRACE: You know, do you really believe that, Debra? Do you believe that the deliberations are going to end?

OPRI: Well, you know, Nancy, I`m going to fill you in on a little secret. Eventually, they have to.

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: Yes, well, all of us on the panel...

OPRI: You try...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: ... are trial lawyers, and we know it has to end sometime.

Jane Velez-Mitchell, back to you. Regarding all the questions that the jury has been asking, I know the judge is not releasing the documents, but they concern readbacks, correct? That means this jury has got some questions about some of the testimony. It is not about the law. They`ve got the jury charges in writing.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, it absolutely makes sense. I mean, there was testimony from more than 130 witnesses. So it certainly makes sense that they would want to have some readbacks. We were all shocked, as we milled about here, scratching our heads, how is it possible that there are no questions? A former prosecutor had said she`d never seen anything like this. So this makes a lot more sense.

And you know, as far as the scene here, there are now more than 2,200 credentialed members of the media, and the reports are that is more than the O.J. trial and the Scott Peterson trial combined. So to keep that many people sitting around, telling them absolutely nothing -- well, it`s chutzpah.

GRACE: You know, I wonder, Eleanor Dixon -- your specialty is child molestation cases, sex crimes -- if the victim -- alleged victim`s family sees all the coverage, sees all the hoopla around the courthouse in support of Jackson, I wonder how that makes this little boy accuser feel, if he knows about it.

DIXON: Well, how could he escape this, especially at his age? But my thoughts are, look at all this attention to Michael Jackson. What kind of pain, mentally, emotionally, must this victim be going through and has gone through at the hands of his alleged abuser. So my thoughts are more with the victim, rather than Michael Jackson`s back pain. I mean, he`s the one up on a car dancing.

GRACE: Well, it could also be dehydration or an electrolyte problem. Very quickly, Penny Douglass, readbacks are not uncommon. It`s not a big deal. It`s just a little speed bump in the case.

FURR: I agree, Nancy. I`m shocked that they`re not having more. As a matter of fact, one of the things that bothers me is that they do not have Michael Jackson there because I always have my client present for any questions from the jury or anything like that.

GRACE: It makes a huge impact. Penny, you`re right. Every time there`s a readback in front of that jury, they need more contact with Michael Jackson, according to most defense experts. Not happening. He`s not leaving Neverland and coming to the courtroom.

Very quickly, to tonight`s "All Points Bulletin." FBI and law enforcement across the country on the lookout for this man, Juan Carlos Mayorga, wanted in connection with the fatal shooting of a man in Dekalb County, Georgia, with an AK-47 assault rifle. Mayorga, 30, 5-6, 150 pounds, black hair, brown eyes. If you have information on this man, call the FBI, 404-679-9000.

Please stay with us, everybody, as we remember Eric Burri, 21, an American hero.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Vegas, baby! The place is up for grabs tonight! The wheels are turning (INAUDIBLE) odds now 50-50 even Michael Jackson will be convicted of all charges. Whoa! That`s a big, big change.

Right now, I`m hearing in my ear we have breaking news in the Michael Jackson case. Let`s go to CNN correspondent Ted Rowlands. Welcome, friend. What`s the news?

TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Nancy. We have several sources telling us tonight that the jurors asked for several portions of readbacks, several readbacks today, and that all of the readbacks were requested were portions of testimony from the accuser in this case. We`ve also been told by several sources close to the case that attorneys for both sides met with judge Rodney Melville three separate times and that jurors had a number of questions for the judge. So clearly, a very busy day in that jury room, moreso than we have heard up until now. But clearly, no verdict as of yet.

GRACE: Ted Rowlands, how are they getting in and out of the courtroom, to have these proceedings without anyone seeing it?

ROWLANDS: Well, we`re not sure if -- how it is taking place. In terms of where the readbacks are taking place, presumably, it would be in the courtroom. I can tell you this. There are barricades up and there are sheriff`s deputies everywhere around this courthouse, and even journalists saying they have to go use the bathroom are watched very closely. Clearly, they`re doing it without people`s knowledge, and they are very concerned about secrecy in this case. Michael Jackson, obviously, has not been present for any of these readbacks.

GRACE: You know, that`s incredible to me, Ted Rowlands -- we were discussing it here on the set with a prosecutor and a defense attorney -- that they would have readbacks, the jury would be brought in with no Michael Jackson sitting there, making eye contact with them. That is a huge, huge strategic blunder from the point of view of veteran trial lawyers. But hey, maybe Jackson didn`t want to come. You can`t make your client come to court.

Do we have any idea what portion of the accuser`s testimony it was?

ROWLANDS: No, we don`t. We have absolutely no idea. We know that it was several portions and that it all had -- was from the accuser, but we don`t know specifically what it was this jury wanted to hear.

GRACE: Hey, Ted, do we know if it was from his direct or his cross?

ROWLANDS: No. We don`t know specifics as to exactly what it was they wanted to hear. We just know that it was testimony while the accuser was on the stand.

GRACE: Ted, how long were they deliberating today?

ROWLANDS: They had a full day, 8:30 until 2:30. They take breaks throughout the day, and it`s up to them how long their breaks will be, so we can`t know for sure how long their breaks are, but if you factor in 15- minute breaks, they`re at it for five or six hours today. And this has been the -- another full day. Yesterday, they were only at it for two days (SIC), so clearly, they had a lot of work to do today with these readbacks, but haven`t made the decision as of yet, and they`re going home to spend time with their families over the weekend.

GRACE: Ted Rowlands, it`s very critical in my mind -- you said there were three separate readbacks of the same testimony, to your knowledge, tonight?

ROWLANDS: We know that there were three meetings with the attorneys with Judge Melville. We don`t know if -- how many readbacks there were. It was characterized as several to us by multiple sources.

GRACE: Interesting, Ted. So what I`m getting from what your source is saying is that the jury was brought in a couple of different times, several, to hear the testimony of the accuser on the stand. That says to me, Ted, that they heard some testimony from the boy. They went back and said, Well, wait a minute. Wait a minute. What about X? Let`s go back in. And they did the process a couple of times. If all the readbacks were from this one boy, and it took several times, that`s very, very probative, in my mind.

Ted Rowlands, any other update that you know of tonight? Any idea what the questions are?

ROWLANDS: None. No idea what the questions are. You know, the information -- it`s difficult to get information about this trial, to be honest. And so that`s what we have for you.

GRACE: Well, Ted Rowlands, that`s actually a lot. This is the first I`d heard as to what the readbacks were. You know, that could be very critical to determine where a jury is headed. CNN`s Ted Rowlands, on the scene at Santa Maria with a little bit of information tonight regarding where this jury is headed.

Very quickly, to veteran prosecutor Eleanor Dixon. Her specialty is child molestation cases. What does it mean?

DIXON: Well, I think it might be good for the prosecution. In my experience, when they ask for testimony of the victim, I`ve had many a jury come back guilty not long afterward. And I think it`s important, too -- many times, they ask for the child, either their taped interview or the actual testimony that they gave in court. And I think that`s to help them kind of rehash everything and remember things that the victim actually said, more important, in this case, than testimony from, let`s say, the mother of the child.

GRACE: Oh, yes. You`re not kidding because the reality is -- the general rule says if they want to hear a state`s witness, they`re going to go with a state`s verdict. If they want to hear from the defense witnesses, they`re going to go with a defense verdict. But also important, Penny, is whether they wanted the boy`s cross or his direct.

FURR: Exactly, Nancy, and that`s what we don`t know. And also critical here is I believe it`s apparent that Michael Jackson has followed the instructions of his defense counsel throughout. So as to respond to you earlier, I can`t imagine that he is there refusing to go to court, if his defense attorney is telling him to go to court. I just find it very concerning that he`s not there for all these readbacks.

GRACE: Penny, very quickly. I`ve only got a few seconds left. The significance of whether it`s cross or direct they want?

FURR: Oh, whether it`s -- I would think, if it`s cross, that they`re go with the defense. If it`s direct, they`re going with the prosecution. So it would be curious to know. I would be very curious to know which one they`re asking for.

GRACE: Quick break, everyone.

After becoming a victim of a violent crime myself and prosecuting violent felonies, I have an objection about how Lady Justice is tricked, how she is treated in our justice system. Part of the proceeds from "Objection" go to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.

Local news next for some of you, but we`ll all be right back. And remember, live coverage of the Jackson verdict watch Monday, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, Court TV`s "Closing Arguments." Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: What a week in America`s courtrooms. Take a look at the stories, and more important, the people who touched all of our lives.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

Two young children, Dylan and Shasta Groene, still missing. They have searched every nook and cranny surrounding the home.

This is Dylan and Shasta, 8 and 9 years old. We do have reason to believe they may still be alive.

Breaking news! Eighteen 18-year-old American girl Natalee Holloway goes on her high school senior trip to Aruba, disappears into thin air. Three more arrests go down for the three young men that escorted Natalee Holloway out of the bar that night.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was kissing with one of the boys.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Our primary goal is to bring Natalee back home. As I said from the beginning, I`m not leaving Aruba without her.

GRACE: Am I crazy, or is there a gag order?

Wait just a minute! I believe I saw the Reverend Jesse Jackson on "American Morning" on CNN.

JACKSON: He is amazingly resolute and strong in his convictions of his innocence.

GRACE: Two jet pilots on trial for getting a snootful and crash landing in the cockpit of a jetliner have a date with Lady Justice.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We the jury in Miami-Dade County, Florida, find the defendant Thomas Cloyd (ph), find the defendant Christopher Hughes guilty of operation of an aircraft while intoxicated or in a careless or reckless manner.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They were processed, fingerprinted in the courtroom and then handcuffed and taken off to the local jail.

GRACE: A horrific crime, gruesome discovery, one man`s body in three different suitcases. We are proud to have the New Jersey attorney general, Peter Harvey.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We believe we can prove that Mr. McGuire (ph) was killed and dismembered in New Jersey. He was shot in the head and he was also shot in the chest, .38-caliber weapon.

GRACE: You helped put fugitive and alleged child molester Donald Crawford where he belongs, behind bars. The FBI in Seattle received a call from one of our viewer that led them directly to Donald Crawford. Thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

I want to thank all of my guests tonight, but my biggest thank you is to you for being with us and inviting us into your homes. Coming up, headlines from all around the world and Larry on CNN. I`m Nancy Grace, signing off for tonight. I`ll see you right here, I hope, Monday night 8:00 o`clock sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END