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Nancy Grace

Nancy Grace for June 15, 2005, CNNHN

Aired June 15, 2005 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, the search goes on for 18-year-old Natalee Holloway, the American girl. She went to this tiny island of Aruba and disappears into thin air. Her mother vows not to leave the island without the girl.
Dive efforts have failed so far. And after combing the Aruban beachfront hotel area, nothing turns up. And now the search is shifting tonight to the home of the 17-year-old son of a local judge seen with Natalee the night she disappeared.

And a 17-year-old star student bludgeoned to death, his 16-year-old brother the suspect.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. And I want to thank you for being with us tonight.

A 17-year-old straight-A student apparently murdered with a baseball bat. Was the killer his own brother?

But first, the desperate search for Alabama beauty Natalee Holloway. Police now honing in on the home of 17-year-old Joran Van Der Sloot.

Tonight, in Aruba, editor-in-chief of "Aruba Today," Julia Renfro; in New York, defense attorney Richard Herman; in Atlanta, defense attorney Ray Giudice; in New York, executive director of the Carole Sund Carrington Foundation, Kim Petersen and psychotherapist Leslie Austin.

But first, let`s go to Aruba and CNN correspondent Karl Penhaul.

Welcome, Karl. Bring us up-to-date.

KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, a law enforcement source close to this investigation is telling us that the three young suspects continue to point fingers at one another. And it seems to have been a product of that that police and investigators swooped on the home of Joran Van Der Sloot again this afternoon.

He lives with his parents. One of them, the island -- one of the island`s judges. Police have told us and other sources who witnessed the raid have told us that items and bags of items were taken from the house along with two vehicles. No clue as to what the other items were, though, at this stage.

A few hours before that, Joran Van Der Sloot and the two other suspects, Satish and Deepak Kalpoe, two brothers, appeared before a judge at the courtroom in downtown Oranjestad. One was a motion filed so that Joran Van Der Sloot`s father can visit him in jail. He`s not had that permission so far. The other motion was by one of the defense attorneys from the Kalpoe brothers asking for more evidence and documents to be included in the dossier against his client so that he can prepare a defense -- Nancy?

GRACE: Karl, let me get this straight. As you know, in America, when there are several suspects, as we call them co-defendants, they all get the statements of each other. Is that not true in Aruba?

PENHAUL: What one of the chief prosecutors has told us so far, Nancy, is that at this stage, in this stage of the investigation, she`s under no obligation to give full disclosure of all of the facts and all the evidence that she has. She`s not under any obligation to give all of the witness statements to the defense attorneys of the other defendants or the other suspects in this case.

It`s not clear precisely what documentation the Kalpoe brother`s attorney was looking for. But certainly, he`s looking for more evidence, more facts about the evidence that the prosecutors have against his clients.

GRACE: To Richard Herman, defense attorney. Richard, it sounds as if you have got these two Kalpoe brothers and then the son of the Dutch judge, Joran Van Der Sloot. And now -- you have seen it a million times -- we`re get some of this in the courtroom. They`re starting to blame each other.

The Kalpoe brothers say that they left the girl alone with the Van Der Sloot boy. Van Der Sloot saying "No, no, no, no, no, we all three dropped her off at the hotel." Somebody is lying.

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, they need you to go down there and interrogate them.

GRACE: Mm-hmm.

HERMAN: But I`ve got to tell you, this Van Der Sloot character looks like the prime target right now. The two brothers testified he was in the back seat with the car with Natalee and they were making out. They clearly said they dropped him and Natalee off close to the hotel area.

This guy has a history of anger management. And you know, this investigation is so ridiculous down there, how they could let these three guys out of custody and immediately after she was missing is beyond me. How much evidence did they lose? How much evidence was tainted during the period of time that they had been incarcerated now?

GRACE: Richard, you`re preaching to the choir. We were all screaming that on day one. "Why don`t you impound the car in which she was taken from the bar, Carlos and Charlie`s?"

Very quickly, back to CNN correspondent Karl Penhaul there in Aruba. Karl, you said two other cars have been impounded. Where did they come from?

PENHAUL: The two cars that were impounded today have come from Joran Van Der Sloot`s parents` homes. One may assume that they`re the parents` cars. It could be that Joran has his own car. We don`t know for sure. But that`s the house they were taken from, Nancy.

GRACE: To Ray Giudice, defense attorney out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. Ray, explain to me legally what goes on when you have three codefendants, three suspects, and they are giving inconsistent or conflicting statements? What do you do?

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, exactly what`s being done. First, you separate them and you interrogate them separately. You go over their story time and time again. You take it from the middle to the end, from the beginning to the end, until you start to develop inconsistencies.

The various investigators from the FBI, they know what they`re doing. They`ve done this many, many times. and they are already finding inconsistencies that they`re going to be able to draw out. And I`m sure that`s what led to both the impounding of the vehicles and the researching of the Van Der Sloot boy`s home.

GRACE: That`s interesting, Ray. And also, I think that is what led to the release of the two black security guards, which many of us thought at the get-go were being used as a scapegoat. And then suddenly, this judge`s son emerges, Van Der Sloot.

Back to Karl Penhaul. Karl, what about the dive efforts? Are they continuing or are they done?

PENHAUL: The dive efforts really have never taken place, Nancy. There was a dive team here on the island. That left because there was no particular area to pinpoint.

But today, we were out with one of the leaders of the search-and- rescue teams. And he says anyway the currents on certain parts of this island are strong in certain parts that would take any object out west and to open ocean. And on the other side of the island, a very strong would bring any object into the coastline, but no further dive efforts that we know of, Nancy.

GRACE: OK, did I just hear you say there were no dive efforts?

PENHAUL: Correct. That`s what we have been told by law enforcement sources close to this investigation, that the FBI team of divers that were sent here never, in fact, carried out any dive search because the Aruban government and the investigators here on the ground, whom they are supporting, never pinpointed an area that they could search.

Obviously, they don`t want to just get in the water and start to swim around the island. That`s not the way these searches are done.

GRACE: Take a listen to this, Karl.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, MOTHER OF MISSING GIRL: Some days are -- they are agonizing. They are so difficult. And some days, I have the deepest hurt that anyone could ever imagine.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That is the mother of Natalee Holloway.

Here in the studio with us, Kim Petersen, who lived through and helped the families` pain after the Laci Petersen disappearance, of course, of the Sharon Rocha family.

This mom is vowing, Kim, not to leave the island until she has Natalee Holloway to bring back to the States. Where is she emotionally at this juncture?

KIM PETERSEN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, CAROLE SUND CARRINGTON FOUNDATION: Nancy, she`s running the gamut of emotions. She`s on a rollercoaster like none she`s ever been on. One minute she`s hopeful. The next minute she`s hopeless. I`m sure that yesterday`s search was horrific for the family when they heard that they had found or possibly found something, and the family went down there. And today they`re talking about the search done at the potential suspect`s home.

It is such a rollercoaster, where they are -- their emotions are running from high to low. And it is the worst nightmare a mother can ever endure. And it`s understandable that she will not leave that island until she finds Natalee and brings her home with her, because her life can go forward. She can`t go back to her life at home, and go into work, and act like nothing`s happened. She cannot leave until she knows where Natalee is and what`s happened to her.

GRACE: You know what`s interesting, Karl Penhaul? Yesterday, there were dive boats, no divers. Why would they send out dive boats? We all saw the footage.

Elizabeth, if you could pull that up for us.

We all saw that yesterday. They were out there with the dive boats. Why didn`t they dive?

PENHAUL: That water there, Nancy, where the search was -- and we`re looking at the dive boats there that were just off the beach near the Marriott Hotel -- that`s where the new search was yesterday, about a 500 yard by 150 yard wide cordon there.

But water there is only about waist deep. And the water is absolutely crystal clear. There is no need for divers there. You can walk there. And as I say, those divers didn`t go in the water then. Certainly, not for an extensive dive search weren`t needed in that area. And the previous dive teams from the States that have been here didn`t go in the water, Nancy.

GRACE: Karl, had they checked the currents? In other words, when you know where the girl was last seen -- the three suspects state that`s where they were, on the beach and at the lighthouse. That would be a clue where to start. And then chart the currents as to where, if there is a body, it would have drifted to. Have they done that, Karl?

PENHAUL: The currents here are very precise, very stable throughout the year. The currents here don`t change too much, according to one of the leaders of the search-and-rescue team with whom we took a helicopter flight today.

There is a difference on the north side of the island, a rugged, rocky coastline. The current comes into that side of the island. He says that, in the past, objects that have been lost in Bonaire and Curacao have washed up on that northern coast.

He also says that, on the western coast, yes, there are strong currents there that lead out towards open ocean and then on to Panama, about 200 miles away from here. But he also says that you will still have to get out maybe 50 to 100 yards into the sea before you can release an object to allow it to drift. Otherwise, that object is just coming straight back into shore, even on the western side of the island, Nancy.

GRACE: Quick break, everybody. We`ll all be right back. We are live in Aruba with the latest on the search for a missing American girl, a beauty, 18-year-old Natalee Holloway. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PENHAUL (voice-over): School is out for Stoneham High`s class of 2005. It`s time for cocktails, a splash of sun, sea and something exotic.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: After what happened with Natalee, I don`t -- I think we`re trying to stay away from people outside of our group.

PENHAUL: The gang`s planning on hitting Carlos and Charlie`s, where Natalee Holloway was last seen. Closing time, the homecoming queen seems a little worse for wear. What`s she been drinking?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sex on the beach. And they make you want to have sex on the beach.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. Those were shots from Carlos and Charlie`s, the night spot there in Aruba, and across many on the islands popular for diving. As you know, no sign of 18-year-old Natalee Holloway.

Let`s go straight back to Aruba. Yesterday, there was quite a massive search along a lover`s lane. What was found, Karl?

PENHAUL: Police officially are saying that nothing that links this area to the investigation was found. Talking to a witness down there on the scene, one of the volunteer searchers, he said that he found two pairs of ladies` underwear. He also said that he found some condoms and also a piece of duct tape.

But the police moved and looked at these items and have ruled them out of the investigation quite categorically. They say it`s not unusual this area that was searched is also a well-known local lovers lane spot, Nancy.

GRACE: And is it true, Karl Penhaul, that the island is called off a big carnival they had scheduled to come up?

PENHAUL: It was actually what the island refers to as mini-carnivals, because at other times of the year, there is a larger carnival. But this mini-carnival is precisely to attract tourists during the off-season.

And what the carnival organizers have said is that they haven`t got enough members of the police force to do crowd control and to help with the organization because all the manpower is concentrated on the search for Natalee Holloway -- Nancy?

GRACE: You know, Karl Penhaul, there have been so many conflicting reports. First of all, we heard reports that maybe Natalee was in a crack house. Not true. Then we heard that there was blood in the car of one of these young men. Not true. Then we heard there was a confession. They retracted that. It came back. It was retracted again.

Why all the conflicting reports? Look, a lot of us are finding fault with the way this investigation is being conducted, referring specifically to allowing Van Der Sloot`s car to sit there for 11 days before it was impounded and inventoried for hair, fiber, blood, semen, anything. But can`t they at least control what`s coming out of their own office regarding these conflicting reports?

PENHAUL: I think there is a couple of elements to that, Nancy. First of all, this case is under intense scrutiny by the international community, by the island community, and also by the local and U.S. media community. So the peoples doing the investigations, including the police, feel under intense scrutiny and, undoubtedly, pressure.

At the same time, the island`s political authorities also appear to feel that pressure, too. And we have heard of instances over the past few days where investigators and political authorities have butted heads. And that does explain to some extent, when some of this information has come out from the political authorities, that they`re trying to hurry things on a little bit to show the international community they`re moving fast -- Nancy?

GRACE: Here in the studio me, psychotherapist Dr. Leslie Austin. What do these conflicting reports, what effect does that have on this girl`s family?

LESLIE AUSTIN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Oh, my goodness. It`s jus devastating for the family to hear there is blood, there isn`t blood, maybe they found something, maybe they didn`t, maybe it was a security guard, it wasn`t. It`s devastating for them.

And it would be so much better if the police could just keep everything quiet until they have something specific and clear. What this family needs is finality, knowing what happened to her, or where she is, some kind of closure. And they`re not getting it. It`s just devastating to be on that kind of rollercoaster now.

GRACE: You know, Ray Giudice, from what we can tell regarding the investigation, this inch-by-inch search of, say, a lover`s lane is not been fruitful. It sounds to me, with these inconsistent statements between these three young men, that`s where they`re going to get the answer, if they can crack one of these kids.

GIUDICE: Absolutely, Nancy. They have got to keep working on them, as we said, keep them isolated. You may remember the famous evidence professor Irving Younger who told that story about the Triangle Shirt Waist factory fire.

He had the young lady on the witness stand. He made her tell the story over and over again and repeat it until the inconsistencies came out. And that broke the case. And that`s what`s going to happen in this matter.

They may find some fiber evidence in one of the vehicles. Obviously, that would be a significant. I`m sure I think it`s relatively easy for the FBI agents on hand to eliminate the condoms, the underwear. Quite frankly, condom use is inconsistent to me with the type of forceful, rape-type sex that we would find that would lead to a homicide. So I discounted the condom use from day one.

GRACE: And also, to Richard Herman, I disagree with Ray in the sense that, what good is a fiber in the car? We already know the girl was in the car. That would prove they had a date. They`ve got to have more than that than a fiber from her clothing. No. Richard?

HERMAN: Well, Nancy, they have to look at this Van Der Sloot`s cars, too. I understand he has two cars of his own, which went 11 days untouched. But you know, from my understanding, this island has about one homicide investigation a year. They have to unleash the FBI that`s down there and had been handcuffed and not prevented to go and do this investigation.

It`s my understanding, Nancy, that, as we sit here today, nothing has been sent to the FBI labs of Quantico for review. Nothing. They have to let our FBI agents go do the investigation. They have to put aside their political concerns for tourism because they have to do everything they can to try to find this girl.

GRACE: Quick break, everybody.

And to "Trial Tracking." Today, divers found the body of missing 2- year-old girl Trinity Nicole Casey. She disappeared Tuesday night. Police issued an Amber Alert for this beautiful 2-year-old girl this morning. According to the local sheriff, Trinity likely drowned just eight feet from the dock of her family`s lakeside home.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUDY OUMAN, DEEPAK KALPOE`S ATTORNEY: We had a brief hearing here about the withholding of certain documents regarding my client. And tomorrow, the judge (UNINTELLIGIBLE) but my client maintains his innocence.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That is the lawyer for one of the Kalpoe brothers. There is Satish Kalpoe, 18, Deepak Kalpoe, 21, and then Joran Van Der Sloot.

Back down to Karl Penhaul, CNN correspondent. Now, what`s interesting to me, Karl, is that the Aruban cops are now going back to the Van Der Sloot home a second time. It begs the question, what did they miss the first time, Karl?

PENHAUL: It depends where they got their tips from. Obviously, they`re hoping that, in the course of this interrogation that they`ve been carrying out on all three boys -- and we do understand that those interrogations have been intensive, in some cases 12 hours a day and more - - that, based on that, they will be getting tips.

A law enforcement source close to this investigation has already told us that there are discrepancies and cracks in the boys` stories. And that they`re now pointing fingers at one another. So presumably, based on that kind of lead, that kind of tip, that will then generate more police and investigative searches, Nancy.

GRACE: Are the local Aruba police interrogating them or has the FBI taken a crack at it?

PENHAUL: The FBI are down here in a support role. In some sense, as an advisory role. In all senses, they`re guests of the Aruban authorities here. That said, we have heard from law enforcement sources that there is close cooperation, that FBI agents are sitting in on all those interrogations, that FBI agents yesterday, for example, at least five agents, were present during that search by the Marriott Hotel.

Also, a police dog and its handler from Miami-Dade police force was there helping with that search. So there does appear to be close cooperation. Together with, of course, that blood sample, suspected blood sample, that in fact was sent to the FBI lab in Quantico, Virginia. And that was the FBI that sent the test results back negative, Nancy.

GRACE: Karl, what about the FBI`s evidence response team? Are they helping the local Aruban police search the home, or is it just the local police searching?

PENHAUL: We have no specifics on that. We have, in fact, no specifics as to whether the FBI agents or any FBI agents were present at the search on the Van Der Sloot home today. But if, for example, they`re following the pattern of recent days, then it would be safe to assume that they had had some participation in either organizing that search, participating in it, or looking at some of the evidence gleaned from that raid, Nancy.

GRACE: I still say their best bet is to crack the inconsistencies with these three young boys.

Leslie Austin, no way will these three be able to keep their stories straight. They`re separated.

AUSTIN: Unconditionally or not, three young men, even when they`re separated, if they just keep going at them, one of them will crack. They`re not sophisticated enough to keep a story going indefinitely. Somebody will make a slip and the case will crack.

GRACE: As we go to break, we at NANCY GRACE want desperately to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Tonight, take a look at Jodi Dager, 30-years-old. Jodi found murdered in her own bed, March `93, Fort Wayne, Indiana. Police still have not found her killer.

If you have any information regarding Jodi Dager, please call the Carole Sund Carrington Foundation toll-free 888-813-8389. Please help us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICKEY JOHN, RELEASED FORMER SUSPECT IN NATALEE HOLLOWAY DISAPPEARANCE: He told me he`s sorry (INAUDIBLE) he`s sorry because of -- he`s -- he`s telling a lie into (ph) that mess.

QUESTION: But he`s innocent. He told you he`s innocent?

JOHN: He told me he`s innocent because he dropped the Dutch guy with the missing girl close to the Marriott, and he and his brother went home.

QUESTION: Which brother was this? Who told you this?

JOHN: He called himself Deepak. I don`t know. He`s the older one. They say he`s 21, 22. He was driving the car.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We`re learning more from the suspects, the two security guards that were released, than from anywhere else. This is after jailhouse conversations the security guards had with some of these brothers behind bars.

Very quickly -- we`re talking about Natalee Holloway, the 18-year-old American girl still missing in Aruba. Down to Karl Penhaul. Karl, wasn`t their story, the three young men -- wasn`t their story first that they dropped her off at her hotel, at the Holiday Inn?

KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That was initially the story that we heard from two of the three suspects...

GRACE: OK.

PENHAUL: ... Arrested last Thursday, from the Kalpoe brothers.

GRACE: And now we`re hearing from the security guards that were originally arrested, then released, that they told them behind bars they dropped her off, they took her to the Marriott, where the lovers` lane area is, correct?

PENHAUL: That`s what the security guard is telling that he had a conversation with one of the three suspects about, yes.

GRACE: Very quickly, Karl, today, the three suspects in court, two motions filed, as you told us, one to have documents released, the other for the Van Der Sloot young man`s father, the judge, to be able to visit him, correct?

PENHAUL: That`s correct, Nancy.

GRACE: You know, Ray Giudice, you`re a veteran defense attorney. I find that very unusual that no one can visit these people behind bars.

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, Nancy. I mean, at 17, he might be a juvenile in most jurisdictions in this country. And certainly, his family members would have access to him early in the game. So I do find that unusual, as well. But apparently, under Dutch law that governs Aruba, that they have to file a motion for a parental visit. So that`s what the hearing will be about tomorrow.

GRACE: Leslie, what do you make of the fact that there were 124 students, seven chaperones? Nobody seems to want to touch the hot potato that there were 125 students, teenagers, just seven chaperons, drinking, partying, in a different country.

LESLIE AUSTIN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Right. This is the elephant on the table for me. How come an 18-year-old American girl was out drinking without chaperones, with a group of friends on a strange island? How did that happen? And young kids always think they`re invincible.

GRACE: Well, not only that, what kind of friends would leave you alone with guys you don`t even know?

AUSTIN: Well, you know, young kids often think they`re invincible, and they think it`s never going happen to them. I can get away with it. I`m partying. You know what? You can party and be smart and safe. And unfortunately, that wasn`t what happened here.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVE HOLLOWAY, MISSING GIRL`S FATHER: When I left Meridian, Mississippi, over -- just over two weeks ago, I met with my pastor, and we had a prayer over the phone. And one thing I keep in the back of my mind when I go through one of these low points is that we ask that God give us the strength, me and my family and friends and everyone else, to continue on. And every time that we hit the brick wall or whatever, you know, I just keep that in the back of my mind, and that`s just -- that`s what keeps us going.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Man, what a roller-coaster this family has been on, the Holloway family. They were told that Natalee was in a crack house. They were told they had the wrong suspects under arrest. They did get the right car seized, they didn`t get the right car seized. There was a confession, there`s not a confession. There was blood in the car, there`s not blood in the car.

Kim Petersen, what does this family need and not need right now?

KIM PETERSEN, EXEC. DIR. CAROLE SUND CARRINGTON FOUNDATION: Well, Nancy, there`s a lot of things that they need support-wise. You heard Dave`s -- her father ask for prayers. They definitely need people`s prayers. But you know what else they need? They need people to take care of the day-to-day things for them. They need people back at home taking care of their home, the bills, things like that, so they don`t even have to think about those concerns. They don`t have to be concerned with finances. They don`t have to worry about any of that. Their number one concern is finding her, and they need to be able to focus 100 percent on that.

Some of these families can`t even make themselves eat, and somebody needs to make sure that they`re bringing them food, that they`re taken care of, because they don`t. They don`t worry about that. That`s not their concern right now.

GRACE: Everybody, we are switching gears. Thank you to Karl Penhaul there in Aruba. Karl, please join us again to tell us the latest on Natalee Holloway. Thank you, friend.

We`re switching gears and taking you to Cincinnati, an incredible story of two young men, one 16-year-old, one 17-year-old, brothers. Apparently, the 16-year-old was seen washing blood from his hands in a public fountain and then went and announced someone was dead in his home. It was his 17-year-old brother.

Now, we invited the suspect`s defense on to the show tonight. They said they`re not talking to the media at this time. Tonight in Cincinnati, Ohio, "Cincinnati Post" editor Barry Horstman. Welcome, Barry. Bring us up to date, Barry.

BARRY HORSTMAN, "CINCINNATI POST": Well, Nancy, you gave a good pretty good interview -- rather, overview of how this began about three weeks ago. It did begin, as you mentioned, when a 16-year-old who seemed disheveled, slightly disoriented, was spotted washing blood from his hands in a public fountain in the small public square of one of Cincinnati`s best neighborhoods. When police arrived a few minutes later, he told them, If you go to a house about six blocks away, you`re going to find a body that`s been beaten by a baseball bat.

Police did, indeed, make that very bloody and horrific discovery and learned that it was the 17-year-old older brother, named Johnny Warrington (ph), of the young man who had sent them there. The young man initially told a story about somebody having broken into the house and attacked his brother, but that story quickly fell apart. And tonight, that 16-year-old sits in Cincinnati`s juvenile detention center, accused of murdering his older brother.

There was a court hearing today. The young man`s been undergoing psychiatric examination for the past three weeks, and a court psychiatrist said today he`s been diagnosed as having paranoid schizophrenia and recommended that he be transferred to a local children`s hospital. The judge denied that request, largely because of security concerns at the hospital.

And something that may have nudged him very strongly in that direction was a rather chilling piece of evidence that came out of today`s hearing. Prosecutors presented a picture that had been drawn by the 16-year-old which showed a young man pointing a gun at one of the juvenile jail`s security guards. So in light of that and other considerations, the judge has decided to keep him in the detention facility until at least June 27, when there is another scheduled hearing to determine whether he might be ultimately be tried in juvenile or adult court.

GRACE: You know, thank God they found that drawing. That`s -- that`s incredible to me! Barry, had this 16-year-old had any signs of mental illness or emotional problems prior to the murder of his older brother?

HORSTMAN: Apparently, none whatsoever, so far as we`ve been able to learn. Perhaps one red flag was the fact that over the last four years, he`s been to at least five different schools. Now, the story we`ve been told by officials at each of those schools is that it was not a behavior problem that forced him to depart, it was more academic considerations. But I suspect you don`t move to five schools in four years without there being some kind of a problem.

GRACE: Well, I don`t know that bad grades necessarily equal paranoid schizophrenia, Barry. Barry, describe these two, the 16-year-old and the 17-year-old.

HORSTMAN: Well, the 17-year-old was just about a week away from graduating from a private high school in Cincinnati, a very popular student, played lacrosse, ice hockey, is described as the kind of kid that everybody loved. One of the rather ironic and poignant anecdotes that`s come out so far is he was going to be going to the University of Colorado this fall and was pondering a possible career in the law. His mother is a lawyer in the local public defenders office. And one week before this all happened, Johnny had accompanied his mother to the local juvenile court as part of a job-shadowing exercise for a senior class project. One week later, his younger brother sat in that courtroom, accused of killing Johnny.

The younger brother himself, other than the rather nomadic existence in terms of his academic life, not a whole lot has come out yet. You mentioned the lawyers not wanting to come on the program tonight. They also have been rather tight-lipped, as has the family. But he`s described -- what we do know about him is he was a very artistic person but had academic problems. But a few school officials said this is somebody who seemed to have real artistic talent.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETER MCGAREY, UNCLE OF VICTIM AND SUSPECT: The Warrington family has suffered a horrible tragedy. Johnny`s brother is a wonderful and loving child who has a full support of his entire family.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Is it a case of sibling rivalry that ended in murder, or is this young man actually paranoid schizophrenic?

To tonight`s "All Points Bulletin." FBI and law enforcement across the country on the lookout for this man, Edward Reisch, wanted in connection with sexual abuse of a 16-year-old girl home for Thanksgiving in `99. Reisch, 56, 5-11, 195 pounds, gray hair, hazel eyes. Take a look. If you have any information on Reisch, call the FBI, 410-265-8080.

Please stay with us as we remember Lance Corporal Andrew Kilpela, 22, an American hero.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The body was found, according to police, in the front room of the first floor of the home. First on the scene, the father of the three boys, John Warrington. A short time later, their mom arrived, and then the grandparents. As the investigation proceeded, friends of the teenagers showed up, all searching to try and make sense of the senseless.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Can you even imagine coming home, one teenager, 16, accused of bludgeoning the other teenager, 17, to death? Whoa! I don`t even know which way you could turn.

Back to Barry Horstman. He`s the city editor of "The Cincinnati Post." Barry, describe this neighborhood. What was it like? I got a feeling it was a very low-crime area.

HORSTMAN: Very low crime, best as we can tell, although this has not been the result of an exhaustive search. This seems to be one of only a handful, maybe as few as two or three homicides in the last half century. The neighborhood is Hyde Park, which is Cincinnati`s wealthiest neighborhood. For more than a century, it`s been, clearly, the neighborhood of choice for many of the city`s most prominent families and many of its cultural and business elite. It`s a community with homes beginning about in the $300,000 range that quickly work themselves up to a couple million. It`s not the kind of community people say where this is accustomed to happening.

However, if nothing else, we`ve learned through this incident, unfortunately, that money does not necessarily confer security. But it`s a mature neighborhood, very much of an insular attitude about it, that it`s a quiet preserve from the city about 10 minutes northeast of downtown Cincinnati.

GRACE: You said Hyde Park area, right?

HORSTMAN: Yes, it is Hyde Park.

GRACE: Well, I know this much about that. You don`t normally see yellow crime scene tapes draped across the front of one of those houses. That much I know.

Very quickly to Ray Giudice. Do you smell an insanity defense in the making right here?

GIUDICE: What I think is important, Nancy, that was a court-appointed doctor who found the medical illness. And you and I have both been around a long time, and it`s pretty rare that the court-appointed doctors come back to favor the defense.

But secondly, if I was defense counsel on this for this young man, I would immediately try to get an order or a motion to have him examined by an MRI scan on a PET scan or a CT scan of his brain, to look for any kind of brain abnormalities, evidence of closed-head trauma as a youth, brain tumors, chemical imbalances. The other facts of this case are pretty static about his educational background and problems, but I think you want to start to preserve his current medical state, and that`s why the lawyer wanted to have him transferred to the medical facility, so that he could have him examined from head to toe.

GRACE: Well, Ray, you`re right about the medical facility. But he wanted him transferred to the children`s medical facility for juvies! No!

GIUDICE: Well, I...

GRACE: Not a guy that we think may have beaten somebody to death with a baseball bat!~

GIUDICE: I respect the judge`s concern about security, especially in light of the diagram. All I`m saying is that, as defense counsel, the -- you want to start looking at the physical, mental, psychological...

GRACE: OK...

GIUDICE: ... evidence, and you want to preserve it early in the game.

GRACE: Richard Herman, though, the mom of these three kids, is a public defender. She`s a lawyer. You want to tell me this kid had paranoid schizophrenia, and she didn`t -- neither she nor the dad noticed anything? That is a very common defense, insanity. It doesn`t normally work. But a public defender not noticing attributes of paranoid schizophrenia?

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I don`t know. I understand she was working there for three months part-time. You know, they have to complete the battery of psychological testing for issues of competency...

GRACE: True.

HERMAN: ... responsibility and mitigation. But Nancy, what impact do you think the family`s wishes will have on this prosecution?

GRACE: You know what? That is a really good point.

Victims` rights advocate here, Kim Petersen. Kim, you`ve handled so many victims` families. That`s a really good point, Richard Herman. What do you think?

PETERSEN: I think that, certainly, the prosecution will take their thoughts into consideration. Ultimately, as you know, the prosecutors decide what the charges will be and how they will proceed. But most of the time, they get the input from the family. As you saw the mom and dad on here, I can`t even imagine their grief and their mixed emotions. Here one son they`re grieving for, and the other son is in custody for that son`s murder. And they`re trying to support him but trying to grieve and bury their other son. I can`t imagine a family going through what they`re going through. It`s horrific.

GRACE: Leslie, sibling rivalry or paranoid schizophrenia?

AUSTIN: Well, it looks like paranoid schizophrenia for now. It`s the trickiest thing to diagnose...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: ... because as Ray pointed out, it was a court-appointed doctor, not the defense, not the prosecution, but a court doctor?

AUSTIN: That weighs heavily in my thinking...

GRACE: Yes.

AUSTIN: ... that yes. And paranoid schizophrenia often does show brain abnormality. It`s a physical abnormality. So they want to check for that. He did have academic dysfunction. That`s one of the list of criteria. They`d have to -- often, it doesn`t show up until there`s some kind of a violent incident. David Berkowitz, "Son of Sam," same thing -- paranoid schizophrenic, all the symptoms wasn`t discovered until after he committed a heinous crime. Most paranoid schizophrenics don`t do a heinous crime. Maybe this man is paranoid schizophrenic.

GRACE: Well, it is significant that the -- what we`re talking about, that the court-appointed doctor said possible paranoid schizophrenia. At a trial, typically, the state has a doctor, the defense has a doctor. And both of them support who`s paying them, essentially. The reality is, a court-appointed doctor goes right down the middle.

Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STUART BASSMAN, PSYCHOLOGIST: The whole family is a victim. It`s not just the parents. It`s not just the boy who was murdered, but it was the boy who took his brother`s life. All of them, as well as their extended family, are all victims, and they will need compassion, understanding and kindness.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Everybody, we are headed to a break.

But after becoming a victim of violent crime myself and prosecuting violent felonies, I`ve got an objection, an objection about how Lady Justice is tricked and treated in our justice system! Part of the proceeds of "Objection" go to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.

Local news is coming up next for some of you, but we`ll all be right back. And remember, live coverage of the "Mississippi Burning" Civil Rights murder trial tomorrow, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, Court TV`s "Closing Arguments."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: John and Marcy Warrington, the pain etched on their faces. It`s almost too hard to look at this. The father came home to find one son bludgeoned to death, a 17-year-old. The 16-year-old behind bars tonight, the suspect in that murder. Oh, gosh!

Welcome back, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us. Very quickly, to Barry Horstman. What comes next, Barry?

HORSTMAN: Well, there is a hearing later this month, on the 27th. It`s a probable cause hearing where we`ll learn whether this young man eventually will be tried in juvenile or adult court. The prosecution has already moved for this to go to adult court, and under Ohio law, if you are charged with a first or second degree felony, it does move to the adult court system.

GRACE: Well, of course, with a New Supreme court ruling, there`s no way a 16-year-old would ever face the death penalty, so he`s not looking down the wrong end of the barrel on that one. But if he`s treated as a juvenile, what would be his maximum sentence?

HORSTMAN: Incarceration only to the early 20s. So we`re talking a vast differential in potential jail time here, prison time, conceivably up to a life sentence, theoretically, would be possible, if tried as an adult, whereas he`d be looking at perhaps only about five years if it goes through the juvenile system.

GRACE: Very quickly, Leslie Austin, how common is sibling murder?

AUSTIN: I think it`s more common than we think. Everybody -- in the statistics, more people are known to each other when they`re murdered -- the victim and the murderer often know each other, more often than not. That`s not English, but you know what I mean!

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: I know what you mean. And very quickly, Kim, you`ve represented so many families, but here you`ve got the family of the suspect, the family of the victim, the same parents.

PETERSEN: I know. As I was listening to the possible sentence, I thought, How do you handle that as a parent? One child you`ve lost forever, you`re grieving for, the other one may be facing life in prison, maybe facing 30 years in prison. And then you still have children at home, too. How do you deal with all of that...

GRACE: Yes, there`s a young child.

PETERSEN: ... at the same time?

GRACE: There were three boys at home.

PETERSEN: And how do you explain that to those children, too, to their siblings?

AUSTIN: And I hope they don`t go into guilt, at some point. I would love for them to get counseling that they don`t feel guilty about what happened, the parents.

GRACE: I want to thank all of my guests tonight. But my biggest thank you to you for being with us, inviting all of us into your home. Coming up, headlines from all around the world, Larry on CNN. I`m Nancy Grace, signing off for tonight. Hope to see you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 o`clock sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END


Aired June 15, 2005 - 20:00:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, the search goes on for 18-year-old Natalee Holloway, the American girl. She went to this tiny island of Aruba and disappears into thin air. Her mother vows not to leave the island without the girl.
Dive efforts have failed so far. And after combing the Aruban beachfront hotel area, nothing turns up. And now the search is shifting tonight to the home of the 17-year-old son of a local judge seen with Natalee the night she disappeared.

And a 17-year-old star student bludgeoned to death, his 16-year-old brother the suspect.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. And I want to thank you for being with us tonight.

A 17-year-old straight-A student apparently murdered with a baseball bat. Was the killer his own brother?

But first, the desperate search for Alabama beauty Natalee Holloway. Police now honing in on the home of 17-year-old Joran Van Der Sloot.

Tonight, in Aruba, editor-in-chief of "Aruba Today," Julia Renfro; in New York, defense attorney Richard Herman; in Atlanta, defense attorney Ray Giudice; in New York, executive director of the Carole Sund Carrington Foundation, Kim Petersen and psychotherapist Leslie Austin.

But first, let`s go to Aruba and CNN correspondent Karl Penhaul.

Welcome, Karl. Bring us up-to-date.

KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, a law enforcement source close to this investigation is telling us that the three young suspects continue to point fingers at one another. And it seems to have been a product of that that police and investigators swooped on the home of Joran Van Der Sloot again this afternoon.

He lives with his parents. One of them, the island -- one of the island`s judges. Police have told us and other sources who witnessed the raid have told us that items and bags of items were taken from the house along with two vehicles. No clue as to what the other items were, though, at this stage.

A few hours before that, Joran Van Der Sloot and the two other suspects, Satish and Deepak Kalpoe, two brothers, appeared before a judge at the courtroom in downtown Oranjestad. One was a motion filed so that Joran Van Der Sloot`s father can visit him in jail. He`s not had that permission so far. The other motion was by one of the defense attorneys from the Kalpoe brothers asking for more evidence and documents to be included in the dossier against his client so that he can prepare a defense -- Nancy?

GRACE: Karl, let me get this straight. As you know, in America, when there are several suspects, as we call them co-defendants, they all get the statements of each other. Is that not true in Aruba?

PENHAUL: What one of the chief prosecutors has told us so far, Nancy, is that at this stage, in this stage of the investigation, she`s under no obligation to give full disclosure of all of the facts and all the evidence that she has. She`s not under any obligation to give all of the witness statements to the defense attorneys of the other defendants or the other suspects in this case.

It`s not clear precisely what documentation the Kalpoe brother`s attorney was looking for. But certainly, he`s looking for more evidence, more facts about the evidence that the prosecutors have against his clients.

GRACE: To Richard Herman, defense attorney. Richard, it sounds as if you have got these two Kalpoe brothers and then the son of the Dutch judge, Joran Van Der Sloot. And now -- you have seen it a million times -- we`re get some of this in the courtroom. They`re starting to blame each other.

The Kalpoe brothers say that they left the girl alone with the Van Der Sloot boy. Van Der Sloot saying "No, no, no, no, no, we all three dropped her off at the hotel." Somebody is lying.

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, they need you to go down there and interrogate them.

GRACE: Mm-hmm.

HERMAN: But I`ve got to tell you, this Van Der Sloot character looks like the prime target right now. The two brothers testified he was in the back seat with the car with Natalee and they were making out. They clearly said they dropped him and Natalee off close to the hotel area.

This guy has a history of anger management. And you know, this investigation is so ridiculous down there, how they could let these three guys out of custody and immediately after she was missing is beyond me. How much evidence did they lose? How much evidence was tainted during the period of time that they had been incarcerated now?

GRACE: Richard, you`re preaching to the choir. We were all screaming that on day one. "Why don`t you impound the car in which she was taken from the bar, Carlos and Charlie`s?"

Very quickly, back to CNN correspondent Karl Penhaul there in Aruba. Karl, you said two other cars have been impounded. Where did they come from?

PENHAUL: The two cars that were impounded today have come from Joran Van Der Sloot`s parents` homes. One may assume that they`re the parents` cars. It could be that Joran has his own car. We don`t know for sure. But that`s the house they were taken from, Nancy.

GRACE: To Ray Giudice, defense attorney out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. Ray, explain to me legally what goes on when you have three codefendants, three suspects, and they are giving inconsistent or conflicting statements? What do you do?

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, exactly what`s being done. First, you separate them and you interrogate them separately. You go over their story time and time again. You take it from the middle to the end, from the beginning to the end, until you start to develop inconsistencies.

The various investigators from the FBI, they know what they`re doing. They`ve done this many, many times. and they are already finding inconsistencies that they`re going to be able to draw out. And I`m sure that`s what led to both the impounding of the vehicles and the researching of the Van Der Sloot boy`s home.

GRACE: That`s interesting, Ray. And also, I think that is what led to the release of the two black security guards, which many of us thought at the get-go were being used as a scapegoat. And then suddenly, this judge`s son emerges, Van Der Sloot.

Back to Karl Penhaul. Karl, what about the dive efforts? Are they continuing or are they done?

PENHAUL: The dive efforts really have never taken place, Nancy. There was a dive team here on the island. That left because there was no particular area to pinpoint.

But today, we were out with one of the leaders of the search-and- rescue teams. And he says anyway the currents on certain parts of this island are strong in certain parts that would take any object out west and to open ocean. And on the other side of the island, a very strong would bring any object into the coastline, but no further dive efforts that we know of, Nancy.

GRACE: OK, did I just hear you say there were no dive efforts?

PENHAUL: Correct. That`s what we have been told by law enforcement sources close to this investigation, that the FBI team of divers that were sent here never, in fact, carried out any dive search because the Aruban government and the investigators here on the ground, whom they are supporting, never pinpointed an area that they could search.

Obviously, they don`t want to just get in the water and start to swim around the island. That`s not the way these searches are done.

GRACE: Take a listen to this, Karl.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, MOTHER OF MISSING GIRL: Some days are -- they are agonizing. They are so difficult. And some days, I have the deepest hurt that anyone could ever imagine.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That is the mother of Natalee Holloway.

Here in the studio with us, Kim Petersen, who lived through and helped the families` pain after the Laci Petersen disappearance, of course, of the Sharon Rocha family.

This mom is vowing, Kim, not to leave the island until she has Natalee Holloway to bring back to the States. Where is she emotionally at this juncture?

KIM PETERSEN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, CAROLE SUND CARRINGTON FOUNDATION: Nancy, she`s running the gamut of emotions. She`s on a rollercoaster like none she`s ever been on. One minute she`s hopeful. The next minute she`s hopeless. I`m sure that yesterday`s search was horrific for the family when they heard that they had found or possibly found something, and the family went down there. And today they`re talking about the search done at the potential suspect`s home.

It is such a rollercoaster, where they are -- their emotions are running from high to low. And it is the worst nightmare a mother can ever endure. And it`s understandable that she will not leave that island until she finds Natalee and brings her home with her, because her life can go forward. She can`t go back to her life at home, and go into work, and act like nothing`s happened. She cannot leave until she knows where Natalee is and what`s happened to her.

GRACE: You know what`s interesting, Karl Penhaul? Yesterday, there were dive boats, no divers. Why would they send out dive boats? We all saw the footage.

Elizabeth, if you could pull that up for us.

We all saw that yesterday. They were out there with the dive boats. Why didn`t they dive?

PENHAUL: That water there, Nancy, where the search was -- and we`re looking at the dive boats there that were just off the beach near the Marriott Hotel -- that`s where the new search was yesterday, about a 500 yard by 150 yard wide cordon there.

But water there is only about waist deep. And the water is absolutely crystal clear. There is no need for divers there. You can walk there. And as I say, those divers didn`t go in the water then. Certainly, not for an extensive dive search weren`t needed in that area. And the previous dive teams from the States that have been here didn`t go in the water, Nancy.

GRACE: Karl, had they checked the currents? In other words, when you know where the girl was last seen -- the three suspects state that`s where they were, on the beach and at the lighthouse. That would be a clue where to start. And then chart the currents as to where, if there is a body, it would have drifted to. Have they done that, Karl?

PENHAUL: The currents here are very precise, very stable throughout the year. The currents here don`t change too much, according to one of the leaders of the search-and-rescue team with whom we took a helicopter flight today.

There is a difference on the north side of the island, a rugged, rocky coastline. The current comes into that side of the island. He says that, in the past, objects that have been lost in Bonaire and Curacao have washed up on that northern coast.

He also says that, on the western coast, yes, there are strong currents there that lead out towards open ocean and then on to Panama, about 200 miles away from here. But he also says that you will still have to get out maybe 50 to 100 yards into the sea before you can release an object to allow it to drift. Otherwise, that object is just coming straight back into shore, even on the western side of the island, Nancy.

GRACE: Quick break, everybody. We`ll all be right back. We are live in Aruba with the latest on the search for a missing American girl, a beauty, 18-year-old Natalee Holloway. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PENHAUL (voice-over): School is out for Stoneham High`s class of 2005. It`s time for cocktails, a splash of sun, sea and something exotic.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: After what happened with Natalee, I don`t -- I think we`re trying to stay away from people outside of our group.

PENHAUL: The gang`s planning on hitting Carlos and Charlie`s, where Natalee Holloway was last seen. Closing time, the homecoming queen seems a little worse for wear. What`s she been drinking?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sex on the beach. And they make you want to have sex on the beach.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. Those were shots from Carlos and Charlie`s, the night spot there in Aruba, and across many on the islands popular for diving. As you know, no sign of 18-year-old Natalee Holloway.

Let`s go straight back to Aruba. Yesterday, there was quite a massive search along a lover`s lane. What was found, Karl?

PENHAUL: Police officially are saying that nothing that links this area to the investigation was found. Talking to a witness down there on the scene, one of the volunteer searchers, he said that he found two pairs of ladies` underwear. He also said that he found some condoms and also a piece of duct tape.

But the police moved and looked at these items and have ruled them out of the investigation quite categorically. They say it`s not unusual this area that was searched is also a well-known local lovers lane spot, Nancy.

GRACE: And is it true, Karl Penhaul, that the island is called off a big carnival they had scheduled to come up?

PENHAUL: It was actually what the island refers to as mini-carnivals, because at other times of the year, there is a larger carnival. But this mini-carnival is precisely to attract tourists during the off-season.

And what the carnival organizers have said is that they haven`t got enough members of the police force to do crowd control and to help with the organization because all the manpower is concentrated on the search for Natalee Holloway -- Nancy?

GRACE: You know, Karl Penhaul, there have been so many conflicting reports. First of all, we heard reports that maybe Natalee was in a crack house. Not true. Then we heard that there was blood in the car of one of these young men. Not true. Then we heard there was a confession. They retracted that. It came back. It was retracted again.

Why all the conflicting reports? Look, a lot of us are finding fault with the way this investigation is being conducted, referring specifically to allowing Van Der Sloot`s car to sit there for 11 days before it was impounded and inventoried for hair, fiber, blood, semen, anything. But can`t they at least control what`s coming out of their own office regarding these conflicting reports?

PENHAUL: I think there is a couple of elements to that, Nancy. First of all, this case is under intense scrutiny by the international community, by the island community, and also by the local and U.S. media community. So the peoples doing the investigations, including the police, feel under intense scrutiny and, undoubtedly, pressure.

At the same time, the island`s political authorities also appear to feel that pressure, too. And we have heard of instances over the past few days where investigators and political authorities have butted heads. And that does explain to some extent, when some of this information has come out from the political authorities, that they`re trying to hurry things on a little bit to show the international community they`re moving fast -- Nancy?

GRACE: Here in the studio me, psychotherapist Dr. Leslie Austin. What do these conflicting reports, what effect does that have on this girl`s family?

LESLIE AUSTIN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Oh, my goodness. It`s jus devastating for the family to hear there is blood, there isn`t blood, maybe they found something, maybe they didn`t, maybe it was a security guard, it wasn`t. It`s devastating for them.

And it would be so much better if the police could just keep everything quiet until they have something specific and clear. What this family needs is finality, knowing what happened to her, or where she is, some kind of closure. And they`re not getting it. It`s just devastating to be on that kind of rollercoaster now.

GRACE: You know, Ray Giudice, from what we can tell regarding the investigation, this inch-by-inch search of, say, a lover`s lane is not been fruitful. It sounds to me, with these inconsistent statements between these three young men, that`s where they`re going to get the answer, if they can crack one of these kids.

GIUDICE: Absolutely, Nancy. They have got to keep working on them, as we said, keep them isolated. You may remember the famous evidence professor Irving Younger who told that story about the Triangle Shirt Waist factory fire.

He had the young lady on the witness stand. He made her tell the story over and over again and repeat it until the inconsistencies came out. And that broke the case. And that`s what`s going to happen in this matter.

They may find some fiber evidence in one of the vehicles. Obviously, that would be a significant. I`m sure I think it`s relatively easy for the FBI agents on hand to eliminate the condoms, the underwear. Quite frankly, condom use is inconsistent to me with the type of forceful, rape-type sex that we would find that would lead to a homicide. So I discounted the condom use from day one.

GRACE: And also, to Richard Herman, I disagree with Ray in the sense that, what good is a fiber in the car? We already know the girl was in the car. That would prove they had a date. They`ve got to have more than that than a fiber from her clothing. No. Richard?

HERMAN: Well, Nancy, they have to look at this Van Der Sloot`s cars, too. I understand he has two cars of his own, which went 11 days untouched. But you know, from my understanding, this island has about one homicide investigation a year. They have to unleash the FBI that`s down there and had been handcuffed and not prevented to go and do this investigation.

It`s my understanding, Nancy, that, as we sit here today, nothing has been sent to the FBI labs of Quantico for review. Nothing. They have to let our FBI agents go do the investigation. They have to put aside their political concerns for tourism because they have to do everything they can to try to find this girl.

GRACE: Quick break, everybody.

And to "Trial Tracking." Today, divers found the body of missing 2- year-old girl Trinity Nicole Casey. She disappeared Tuesday night. Police issued an Amber Alert for this beautiful 2-year-old girl this morning. According to the local sheriff, Trinity likely drowned just eight feet from the dock of her family`s lakeside home.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUDY OUMAN, DEEPAK KALPOE`S ATTORNEY: We had a brief hearing here about the withholding of certain documents regarding my client. And tomorrow, the judge (UNINTELLIGIBLE) but my client maintains his innocence.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That is the lawyer for one of the Kalpoe brothers. There is Satish Kalpoe, 18, Deepak Kalpoe, 21, and then Joran Van Der Sloot.

Back down to Karl Penhaul, CNN correspondent. Now, what`s interesting to me, Karl, is that the Aruban cops are now going back to the Van Der Sloot home a second time. It begs the question, what did they miss the first time, Karl?

PENHAUL: It depends where they got their tips from. Obviously, they`re hoping that, in the course of this interrogation that they`ve been carrying out on all three boys -- and we do understand that those interrogations have been intensive, in some cases 12 hours a day and more - - that, based on that, they will be getting tips.

A law enforcement source close to this investigation has already told us that there are discrepancies and cracks in the boys` stories. And that they`re now pointing fingers at one another. So presumably, based on that kind of lead, that kind of tip, that will then generate more police and investigative searches, Nancy.

GRACE: Are the local Aruba police interrogating them or has the FBI taken a crack at it?

PENHAUL: The FBI are down here in a support role. In some sense, as an advisory role. In all senses, they`re guests of the Aruban authorities here. That said, we have heard from law enforcement sources that there is close cooperation, that FBI agents are sitting in on all those interrogations, that FBI agents yesterday, for example, at least five agents, were present during that search by the Marriott Hotel.

Also, a police dog and its handler from Miami-Dade police force was there helping with that search. So there does appear to be close cooperation. Together with, of course, that blood sample, suspected blood sample, that in fact was sent to the FBI lab in Quantico, Virginia. And that was the FBI that sent the test results back negative, Nancy.

GRACE: Karl, what about the FBI`s evidence response team? Are they helping the local Aruban police search the home, or is it just the local police searching?

PENHAUL: We have no specifics on that. We have, in fact, no specifics as to whether the FBI agents or any FBI agents were present at the search on the Van Der Sloot home today. But if, for example, they`re following the pattern of recent days, then it would be safe to assume that they had had some participation in either organizing that search, participating in it, or looking at some of the evidence gleaned from that raid, Nancy.

GRACE: I still say their best bet is to crack the inconsistencies with these three young boys.

Leslie Austin, no way will these three be able to keep their stories straight. They`re separated.

AUSTIN: Unconditionally or not, three young men, even when they`re separated, if they just keep going at them, one of them will crack. They`re not sophisticated enough to keep a story going indefinitely. Somebody will make a slip and the case will crack.

GRACE: As we go to break, we at NANCY GRACE want desperately to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Tonight, take a look at Jodi Dager, 30-years-old. Jodi found murdered in her own bed, March `93, Fort Wayne, Indiana. Police still have not found her killer.

If you have any information regarding Jodi Dager, please call the Carole Sund Carrington Foundation toll-free 888-813-8389. Please help us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICKEY JOHN, RELEASED FORMER SUSPECT IN NATALEE HOLLOWAY DISAPPEARANCE: He told me he`s sorry (INAUDIBLE) he`s sorry because of -- he`s -- he`s telling a lie into (ph) that mess.

QUESTION: But he`s innocent. He told you he`s innocent?

JOHN: He told me he`s innocent because he dropped the Dutch guy with the missing girl close to the Marriott, and he and his brother went home.

QUESTION: Which brother was this? Who told you this?

JOHN: He called himself Deepak. I don`t know. He`s the older one. They say he`s 21, 22. He was driving the car.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We`re learning more from the suspects, the two security guards that were released, than from anywhere else. This is after jailhouse conversations the security guards had with some of these brothers behind bars.

Very quickly -- we`re talking about Natalee Holloway, the 18-year-old American girl still missing in Aruba. Down to Karl Penhaul. Karl, wasn`t their story, the three young men -- wasn`t their story first that they dropped her off at her hotel, at the Holiday Inn?

KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That was initially the story that we heard from two of the three suspects...

GRACE: OK.

PENHAUL: ... Arrested last Thursday, from the Kalpoe brothers.

GRACE: And now we`re hearing from the security guards that were originally arrested, then released, that they told them behind bars they dropped her off, they took her to the Marriott, where the lovers` lane area is, correct?

PENHAUL: That`s what the security guard is telling that he had a conversation with one of the three suspects about, yes.

GRACE: Very quickly, Karl, today, the three suspects in court, two motions filed, as you told us, one to have documents released, the other for the Van Der Sloot young man`s father, the judge, to be able to visit him, correct?

PENHAUL: That`s correct, Nancy.

GRACE: You know, Ray Giudice, you`re a veteran defense attorney. I find that very unusual that no one can visit these people behind bars.

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, Nancy. I mean, at 17, he might be a juvenile in most jurisdictions in this country. And certainly, his family members would have access to him early in the game. So I do find that unusual, as well. But apparently, under Dutch law that governs Aruba, that they have to file a motion for a parental visit. So that`s what the hearing will be about tomorrow.

GRACE: Leslie, what do you make of the fact that there were 124 students, seven chaperones? Nobody seems to want to touch the hot potato that there were 125 students, teenagers, just seven chaperons, drinking, partying, in a different country.

LESLIE AUSTIN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Right. This is the elephant on the table for me. How come an 18-year-old American girl was out drinking without chaperones, with a group of friends on a strange island? How did that happen? And young kids always think they`re invincible.

GRACE: Well, not only that, what kind of friends would leave you alone with guys you don`t even know?

AUSTIN: Well, you know, young kids often think they`re invincible, and they think it`s never going happen to them. I can get away with it. I`m partying. You know what? You can party and be smart and safe. And unfortunately, that wasn`t what happened here.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVE HOLLOWAY, MISSING GIRL`S FATHER: When I left Meridian, Mississippi, over -- just over two weeks ago, I met with my pastor, and we had a prayer over the phone. And one thing I keep in the back of my mind when I go through one of these low points is that we ask that God give us the strength, me and my family and friends and everyone else, to continue on. And every time that we hit the brick wall or whatever, you know, I just keep that in the back of my mind, and that`s just -- that`s what keeps us going.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Man, what a roller-coaster this family has been on, the Holloway family. They were told that Natalee was in a crack house. They were told they had the wrong suspects under arrest. They did get the right car seized, they didn`t get the right car seized. There was a confession, there`s not a confession. There was blood in the car, there`s not blood in the car.

Kim Petersen, what does this family need and not need right now?

KIM PETERSEN, EXEC. DIR. CAROLE SUND CARRINGTON FOUNDATION: Well, Nancy, there`s a lot of things that they need support-wise. You heard Dave`s -- her father ask for prayers. They definitely need people`s prayers. But you know what else they need? They need people to take care of the day-to-day things for them. They need people back at home taking care of their home, the bills, things like that, so they don`t even have to think about those concerns. They don`t have to be concerned with finances. They don`t have to worry about any of that. Their number one concern is finding her, and they need to be able to focus 100 percent on that.

Some of these families can`t even make themselves eat, and somebody needs to make sure that they`re bringing them food, that they`re taken care of, because they don`t. They don`t worry about that. That`s not their concern right now.

GRACE: Everybody, we are switching gears. Thank you to Karl Penhaul there in Aruba. Karl, please join us again to tell us the latest on Natalee Holloway. Thank you, friend.

We`re switching gears and taking you to Cincinnati, an incredible story of two young men, one 16-year-old, one 17-year-old, brothers. Apparently, the 16-year-old was seen washing blood from his hands in a public fountain and then went and announced someone was dead in his home. It was his 17-year-old brother.

Now, we invited the suspect`s defense on to the show tonight. They said they`re not talking to the media at this time. Tonight in Cincinnati, Ohio, "Cincinnati Post" editor Barry Horstman. Welcome, Barry. Bring us up to date, Barry.

BARRY HORSTMAN, "CINCINNATI POST": Well, Nancy, you gave a good pretty good interview -- rather, overview of how this began about three weeks ago. It did begin, as you mentioned, when a 16-year-old who seemed disheveled, slightly disoriented, was spotted washing blood from his hands in a public fountain in the small public square of one of Cincinnati`s best neighborhoods. When police arrived a few minutes later, he told them, If you go to a house about six blocks away, you`re going to find a body that`s been beaten by a baseball bat.

Police did, indeed, make that very bloody and horrific discovery and learned that it was the 17-year-old older brother, named Johnny Warrington (ph), of the young man who had sent them there. The young man initially told a story about somebody having broken into the house and attacked his brother, but that story quickly fell apart. And tonight, that 16-year-old sits in Cincinnati`s juvenile detention center, accused of murdering his older brother.

There was a court hearing today. The young man`s been undergoing psychiatric examination for the past three weeks, and a court psychiatrist said today he`s been diagnosed as having paranoid schizophrenia and recommended that he be transferred to a local children`s hospital. The judge denied that request, largely because of security concerns at the hospital.

And something that may have nudged him very strongly in that direction was a rather chilling piece of evidence that came out of today`s hearing. Prosecutors presented a picture that had been drawn by the 16-year-old which showed a young man pointing a gun at one of the juvenile jail`s security guards. So in light of that and other considerations, the judge has decided to keep him in the detention facility until at least June 27, when there is another scheduled hearing to determine whether he might be ultimately be tried in juvenile or adult court.

GRACE: You know, thank God they found that drawing. That`s -- that`s incredible to me! Barry, had this 16-year-old had any signs of mental illness or emotional problems prior to the murder of his older brother?

HORSTMAN: Apparently, none whatsoever, so far as we`ve been able to learn. Perhaps one red flag was the fact that over the last four years, he`s been to at least five different schools. Now, the story we`ve been told by officials at each of those schools is that it was not a behavior problem that forced him to depart, it was more academic considerations. But I suspect you don`t move to five schools in four years without there being some kind of a problem.

GRACE: Well, I don`t know that bad grades necessarily equal paranoid schizophrenia, Barry. Barry, describe these two, the 16-year-old and the 17-year-old.

HORSTMAN: Well, the 17-year-old was just about a week away from graduating from a private high school in Cincinnati, a very popular student, played lacrosse, ice hockey, is described as the kind of kid that everybody loved. One of the rather ironic and poignant anecdotes that`s come out so far is he was going to be going to the University of Colorado this fall and was pondering a possible career in the law. His mother is a lawyer in the local public defenders office. And one week before this all happened, Johnny had accompanied his mother to the local juvenile court as part of a job-shadowing exercise for a senior class project. One week later, his younger brother sat in that courtroom, accused of killing Johnny.

The younger brother himself, other than the rather nomadic existence in terms of his academic life, not a whole lot has come out yet. You mentioned the lawyers not wanting to come on the program tonight. They also have been rather tight-lipped, as has the family. But he`s described -- what we do know about him is he was a very artistic person but had academic problems. But a few school officials said this is somebody who seemed to have real artistic talent.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETER MCGAREY, UNCLE OF VICTIM AND SUSPECT: The Warrington family has suffered a horrible tragedy. Johnny`s brother is a wonderful and loving child who has a full support of his entire family.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Is it a case of sibling rivalry that ended in murder, or is this young man actually paranoid schizophrenic?

To tonight`s "All Points Bulletin." FBI and law enforcement across the country on the lookout for this man, Edward Reisch, wanted in connection with sexual abuse of a 16-year-old girl home for Thanksgiving in `99. Reisch, 56, 5-11, 195 pounds, gray hair, hazel eyes. Take a look. If you have any information on Reisch, call the FBI, 410-265-8080.

Please stay with us as we remember Lance Corporal Andrew Kilpela, 22, an American hero.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The body was found, according to police, in the front room of the first floor of the home. First on the scene, the father of the three boys, John Warrington. A short time later, their mom arrived, and then the grandparents. As the investigation proceeded, friends of the teenagers showed up, all searching to try and make sense of the senseless.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Can you even imagine coming home, one teenager, 16, accused of bludgeoning the other teenager, 17, to death? Whoa! I don`t even know which way you could turn.

Back to Barry Horstman. He`s the city editor of "The Cincinnati Post." Barry, describe this neighborhood. What was it like? I got a feeling it was a very low-crime area.

HORSTMAN: Very low crime, best as we can tell, although this has not been the result of an exhaustive search. This seems to be one of only a handful, maybe as few as two or three homicides in the last half century. The neighborhood is Hyde Park, which is Cincinnati`s wealthiest neighborhood. For more than a century, it`s been, clearly, the neighborhood of choice for many of the city`s most prominent families and many of its cultural and business elite. It`s a community with homes beginning about in the $300,000 range that quickly work themselves up to a couple million. It`s not the kind of community people say where this is accustomed to happening.

However, if nothing else, we`ve learned through this incident, unfortunately, that money does not necessarily confer security. But it`s a mature neighborhood, very much of an insular attitude about it, that it`s a quiet preserve from the city about 10 minutes northeast of downtown Cincinnati.

GRACE: You said Hyde Park area, right?

HORSTMAN: Yes, it is Hyde Park.

GRACE: Well, I know this much about that. You don`t normally see yellow crime scene tapes draped across the front of one of those houses. That much I know.

Very quickly to Ray Giudice. Do you smell an insanity defense in the making right here?

GIUDICE: What I think is important, Nancy, that was a court-appointed doctor who found the medical illness. And you and I have both been around a long time, and it`s pretty rare that the court-appointed doctors come back to favor the defense.

But secondly, if I was defense counsel on this for this young man, I would immediately try to get an order or a motion to have him examined by an MRI scan on a PET scan or a CT scan of his brain, to look for any kind of brain abnormalities, evidence of closed-head trauma as a youth, brain tumors, chemical imbalances. The other facts of this case are pretty static about his educational background and problems, but I think you want to start to preserve his current medical state, and that`s why the lawyer wanted to have him transferred to the medical facility, so that he could have him examined from head to toe.

GRACE: Well, Ray, you`re right about the medical facility. But he wanted him transferred to the children`s medical facility for juvies! No!

GIUDICE: Well, I...

GRACE: Not a guy that we think may have beaten somebody to death with a baseball bat!~

GIUDICE: I respect the judge`s concern about security, especially in light of the diagram. All I`m saying is that, as defense counsel, the -- you want to start looking at the physical, mental, psychological...

GRACE: OK...

GIUDICE: ... evidence, and you want to preserve it early in the game.

GRACE: Richard Herman, though, the mom of these three kids, is a public defender. She`s a lawyer. You want to tell me this kid had paranoid schizophrenia, and she didn`t -- neither she nor the dad noticed anything? That is a very common defense, insanity. It doesn`t normally work. But a public defender not noticing attributes of paranoid schizophrenia?

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I don`t know. I understand she was working there for three months part-time. You know, they have to complete the battery of psychological testing for issues of competency...

GRACE: True.

HERMAN: ... responsibility and mitigation. But Nancy, what impact do you think the family`s wishes will have on this prosecution?

GRACE: You know what? That is a really good point.

Victims` rights advocate here, Kim Petersen. Kim, you`ve handled so many victims` families. That`s a really good point, Richard Herman. What do you think?

PETERSEN: I think that, certainly, the prosecution will take their thoughts into consideration. Ultimately, as you know, the prosecutors decide what the charges will be and how they will proceed. But most of the time, they get the input from the family. As you saw the mom and dad on here, I can`t even imagine their grief and their mixed emotions. Here one son they`re grieving for, and the other son is in custody for that son`s murder. And they`re trying to support him but trying to grieve and bury their other son. I can`t imagine a family going through what they`re going through. It`s horrific.

GRACE: Leslie, sibling rivalry or paranoid schizophrenia?

AUSTIN: Well, it looks like paranoid schizophrenia for now. It`s the trickiest thing to diagnose...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: ... because as Ray pointed out, it was a court-appointed doctor, not the defense, not the prosecution, but a court doctor?

AUSTIN: That weighs heavily in my thinking...

GRACE: Yes.

AUSTIN: ... that yes. And paranoid schizophrenia often does show brain abnormality. It`s a physical abnormality. So they want to check for that. He did have academic dysfunction. That`s one of the list of criteria. They`d have to -- often, it doesn`t show up until there`s some kind of a violent incident. David Berkowitz, "Son of Sam," same thing -- paranoid schizophrenic, all the symptoms wasn`t discovered until after he committed a heinous crime. Most paranoid schizophrenics don`t do a heinous crime. Maybe this man is paranoid schizophrenic.

GRACE: Well, it is significant that the -- what we`re talking about, that the court-appointed doctor said possible paranoid schizophrenia. At a trial, typically, the state has a doctor, the defense has a doctor. And both of them support who`s paying them, essentially. The reality is, a court-appointed doctor goes right down the middle.

Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STUART BASSMAN, PSYCHOLOGIST: The whole family is a victim. It`s not just the parents. It`s not just the boy who was murdered, but it was the boy who took his brother`s life. All of them, as well as their extended family, are all victims, and they will need compassion, understanding and kindness.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Everybody, we are headed to a break.

But after becoming a victim of violent crime myself and prosecuting violent felonies, I`ve got an objection, an objection about how Lady Justice is tricked and treated in our justice system! Part of the proceeds of "Objection" go to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.

Local news is coming up next for some of you, but we`ll all be right back. And remember, live coverage of the "Mississippi Burning" Civil Rights murder trial tomorrow, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, Court TV`s "Closing Arguments."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: John and Marcy Warrington, the pain etched on their faces. It`s almost too hard to look at this. The father came home to find one son bludgeoned to death, a 17-year-old. The 16-year-old behind bars tonight, the suspect in that murder. Oh, gosh!

Welcome back, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us. Very quickly, to Barry Horstman. What comes next, Barry?

HORSTMAN: Well, there is a hearing later this month, on the 27th. It`s a probable cause hearing where we`ll learn whether this young man eventually will be tried in juvenile or adult court. The prosecution has already moved for this to go to adult court, and under Ohio law, if you are charged with a first or second degree felony, it does move to the adult court system.

GRACE: Well, of course, with a New Supreme court ruling, there`s no way a 16-year-old would ever face the death penalty, so he`s not looking down the wrong end of the barrel on that one. But if he`s treated as a juvenile, what would be his maximum sentence?

HORSTMAN: Incarceration only to the early 20s. So we`re talking a vast differential in potential jail time here, prison time, conceivably up to a life sentence, theoretically, would be possible, if tried as an adult, whereas he`d be looking at perhaps only about five years if it goes through the juvenile system.

GRACE: Very quickly, Leslie Austin, how common is sibling murder?

AUSTIN: I think it`s more common than we think. Everybody -- in the statistics, more people are known to each other when they`re murdered -- the victim and the murderer often know each other, more often than not. That`s not English, but you know what I mean!

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: I know what you mean. And very quickly, Kim, you`ve represented so many families, but here you`ve got the family of the suspect, the family of the victim, the same parents.

PETERSEN: I know. As I was listening to the possible sentence, I thought, How do you handle that as a parent? One child you`ve lost forever, you`re grieving for, the other one may be facing life in prison, maybe facing 30 years in prison. And then you still have children at home, too. How do you deal with all of that...

GRACE: Yes, there`s a young child.

PETERSEN: ... at the same time?

GRACE: There were three boys at home.

PETERSEN: And how do you explain that to those children, too, to their siblings?

AUSTIN: And I hope they don`t go into guilt, at some point. I would love for them to get counseling that they don`t feel guilty about what happened, the parents.

GRACE: I want to thank all of my guests tonight. But my biggest thank you to you for being with us, inviting all of us into your home. Coming up, headlines from all around the world, Larry on CNN. I`m Nancy Grace, signing off for tonight. Hope to see you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 o`clock sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END