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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Urgent Reform; Nuclear Stalemate; Bloody Iraq
Aired June 16, 2005 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: And good evening, everybody. Tonight, nuclear stalemate with the last two members of the axis of evil. Why a growing number of officials are warning the nuclear standoffs with Iran and North Korea will never be solved with diplomacy alone.
Also tonight, the best government money can buy. Congress is close to approving legislation that will greatly affect energy companies in this country. And at the same time, many members of Congress are major shareholders in those energy companies. We'll have that special report for you tonight.
And China's power grab over the Internet. China's communist government is going to extraordinary lengths to block its citizens from talking about democracy, and American companies are helping them in the effort.
But first tonight, the urgent need for reform at United Nations. Congress could soon block millions of dollars in funding for the United Nations until it undergoes a massive reorganization. The White House is urging Congress not to pass legislation, but U.N. Secretary- General Kofi Annan, distracted by his own scandal, says he's encouraged the United States is working to reform the United Nations.
Richard Roth reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RICHARD ROTH, CNN SR. UNITED NATIONS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): On Capitol Hill, the House of Representatives wants a get tough approach.
REP. MIKE PENCE (R), INDIANA: It is time to put the power of the purse behind the necessary reforms of the United Nations.
ROTH: Reform bill sponsors are threatening to withhold up to 50 percent of U.S. dues if nearly 40 different reforms are not adopted by the U.N. within two years.
REP. ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN (R), FLORIDA: It redistricts funds to specific areas, priority areas, so that the U.N. bureaucrats and their corruption can no longer defend programs that are to the rational observer just indefensible.
ROTH: But the Bush administration, which wants John Bolton as ambassador to the U.N. to be the get tough messenger, opposes the dues withholding bill. Secretary of State Rice doesn't like the idea, and one of her deputies says it will diminish U.S. credibility as a leading company.
Former Republican House speaker Newt Gingrich and former Senate Democratic leader George Mitchell gave Congress their own taskforce report this week on U.N. reform but opposed cutting contributions. Oil-for-food scandals, peacekeeper sex abuses and low morale are just some of the reasons for organizational change.
NEWT GINGRICH, FMR. HOUSE SPEAKER: But I think there's a much deeper mood that something has to be fixed or the U.N. will simply crease to be relevant at some point.
ROTH: Most of the rest of the world is focused on getting new seats up for grabs on an expanded Security Council. The U.S. now says it favors two or so new permanent seats. But the U.S. wants the reforms that Congress wants to come first.
CONDOLEEZZA RICE, SECRETARY OF STATE: We are not prepared to have Security Council reforms sprint out ahead of the other extremely important reforms that have to take place.
ROTH: Rice defended the U.N. secretary-general, who has his own reform package on the table. But Kofi Annan can't escape his oil-for- food troubles. He declined to comment on an e-mail from a family friend who claimed in 1998 he met with Annan a week before his company was awarded a lucrative oil-for-food contract. That e-mail now being urgently examined by the U.N. authorized probe led by Paul Volcker.
KOFI ANNAN, U.N. SECRETARY-GENERAL: Mr. Volcker will be looking into all that. I will leave him to it. And I would also plead with you to resist the temptation to substitute yourself for the Volcker commission. Please let him do his work.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROTH: When asked if he would resign if Paul Volcker declared Annan didn't reveal all, the secretary-general said that's a speculative question. As for the House reform bill, it's being debated right now. A vote is likely tomorrow.
There is an alternative version from Democratic Congressman Lantos. He says the current high diversion is like a guillotine on auto pilot. It would give Secretary of State Rice the power to decide if withholding should kick in -- Lou.
DOBBS: All right. It looks like the Congress is going to insert itself here irrespective of the wishes of Secretary of State Rice or the president. This is a strong momentum building behind these -- these measures.
U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan, there was just a tinge of sanctimonious about his remark given that all that has transpired under his administration. That is, the sex scandal with the peacekeeping forces, the oil-for-food scandal. And he's advising journalists not to probe too deeply here.
ROTH: And that was my question. Yes, he only took three questions at the press conference after the Volcker report which "exonerated" him in the secretary-general's idea that day. And he's not met the press to have a clear-all news conference to answer the many questions.
No matter which way it's going to go, it doesn't look great when the main man does not take questions. He likes to think we're trying to be Eliot Ness and investigators when this story is a credible story that should be asked and answered.
DOBBS: Eliot Ness and investigators are actually domiciled in Washington, D.C. under the leadership of Norm Coleman and the U.S. Senate.
Richard Roth, thank you very much.
Also on Capitol Hill, a bipartisan group of congressmen calling upon President Bush to begin planning for the withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq. They've introduced a non-binding resolution in the House that calls for the withdrawal of U.S. troops to begin sometime next year.
One sponsor of the measure is Republican Congressman Walter Jones of North Carolina. He's perhaps best known for renaming French fries served on Capitol Hill to "freedom fries." The White House responded to the resolution by saying President Bush plans to "sharpen his focus on the war." Those the words of his director of communications at the White House, Dan Bartlett.
President Bush today also blasted Iran on the eve of that country's presidential election. The president released a statement saying that power in Iran is "in the hands of an unelected few who have retained power through an electoral process that ignores the basic requirements of democracy." President Bush said tomorrow's elections are consistent with that record.
President Bush's blast of Iran comes as many officials say diplomatic efforts to end Iran and North Korea's nuclear weapons programs are all but dead.
Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This week, a top U.S. diplomat told the Senate Foreign Relations Committee there are increasing doubts North Korea will give up its nuclear program. He admitted U.S. officials have met quietly with North Korean diplomats five times at the U.N. in the last year.
CHRISTOPHER HILL, ASSIST. SECRETARY FOR EAST ASIA AFFAIRS: We engaged in those meetings because we want the North Koreans to hear the U.S. position directly from us.
PILGRIM: Today, U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice appeared to strike a tougher line about what was expected. RICE: No, it's not enough to just return to the talks. You have to be willing to come back and talk about what the talks are about, and that is the dismantling of the North Korean nuclear program.
PILGRIM: President Bush met with South Korean President Roh last week, but allies in the region have had little success. Talks have stalled for a year.
And in that year, North Korea declared itself a nuclear weapons state, conducted a short range ballistic missile test, and announced it was reprocessing another load of plutonium from Pyongyang reactor. A similar lack of progress can also be cited with Iran. Yet Iran, too, continues to declare its sovereign right to develop its nuclear program.
Today, the IAEA, the nuclear watchdog agency, reported Iran continued its pattern of lying and was discovered to be trying to make plutonium. Some nuclear experts say the diplomatic solutions are all but played out in Iran and North Korea.
HENRY SOKOLSKI, NONPROLIFERATION POLICY EDUCATION CENTER: The quick fix is hugging them through diplomacy to get them to change their minds about their bomb projects or bombing away the problems that are not in the cards.
PILGRIM: Lawmakers differ sharply on whether a softer or tougher approach should be adopted to achieve results in both North Korea and Iran.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Now, concerns are rising that both countries are playing the world for time. Iran and North Korea continue to press ahead, and the diplomatic route is having absolutely no impact on the reality on the ground -- Lou.
DOBBS: Kitty Pilgrim. Thank you.
The United Nations Nuclear Monitoring Group today agreed to exempt Saudi Arabia from nuclear inspections. Board members of the International Atomic Energy Agency, the U.N.'s IAEA, approved that deal unanimously. Saudi Arabia will be allowed to sign an accord stating that it has little or no nuclear material, thereby leave no need for inspections.
The United States, the European Union and Australia all urge Saudi Arabia to withdrawal its request for that deal. The Saudis obviously refused, and the IAEA complied.
In Iraq, insurgents attacked an armored Humvee, killing all five U.S. Marines on board. The bombing in Ramadi, the second such attack in a week. An American sailor was also killed in gunfire in Ramadi. The rising insurgency in Iraq is also targeting Iraqi citizens.
Jennifer Eccleston reports from Baghdad.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JENNIFER ECCLESTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, a spokesman for the multinational forces here in Iraq announced that hundreds, maybe more than a thousand, civilians have died in Iraq since the escalation of insurgent attacks in early May. That's Brigadier Donald Alston. He said the rise coincides with comments attributed to terrorist Abu Musab al-Zarqawi last month.
BRIG. GEN. DONALD ALSTON, MULTINATIONAL FORCES SPOKESMAN: With Zarqawi's push recently, we certainly see the fantastic rise in the number of civilians killed, given that he has proclaimed that taking out civilians is an acceptable thing. And that's hundreds or perhaps more than a thousand in just the short amount of time since his proclamation in early May.
ECCLESTON: He also said Iraqi security forces' casualties have grown as their numbers have grown, saying they're confidence and growing capability make them a better target for insurgents. And with that, we saw three separate attacks on security and police today. The deadliest, that car bomb at Baghdad's Airport Road killed three police and wounded 22 others.
This day also brought the announcement that six American troops were killed yesterday, five Marines and one sailor. The Marines and the sailor were killed outside of Ramadi in the restive of Anbar province. In the first incident, it involved a roadside bomb, and the sailor died from wounds from small arms fire from the enemy.
Now, we also heard today from the U.S. military that a man described as al Qaeda's leader in Mosul has been captured. He's identified as Mohammed Khalaf Shkarah, known as Abu Talha.
He was captured Tuesday according to Brigadier General Donald Alston. Alston said that he was a trusted agent of terrorist mastermind Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and he was found in a quiet neighborhood. There were numerous reports according to that U.S. official that he wore a suicide vest 24 hours a day and that he said he would never surrender. But General Alston said he gave up without fight and that he was arrested because of a tip from an Iraqi civilian.
Jennifer Eccleston, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Forty-seven of our troops have now been killed in Iraq in the first half of this month. That is more than the death toll for the entire month of March, when 36 Americans were killed. It is also higher than the death toll for June of last year. Forty-two American troops were killed last June. That the same month that coalition forces handed over sovereignty to Iraq.
1,713 Americans have been killed in Iraq since the war began more than two years ago.
Congressman John Conyers convened a special Democratic forum on Capitol Hill today. The purpose of the forum, to discuss the now famous Downing Street Memo.
The memo, dated July 23, 2002, summarizes a report from a high- ranking British intelligence official who had just returned from Washington. And according to that memo, the Bush administration was already resolved to remove Saddam Hussein through military action as early as the summer of 2002, a fact that the Bush administration has disputed.
The memo says, "The intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy." Because that memo is dated before Congress authorized military action and before the United Nations vote, the Democrats are charging Congress was misled by the administration. Again, the administration absolutely denies the allegation.
Tonight, the White House blasted Congressman -- rather Senator Richard Durbin, the number two Democrat in the Senate, for his inflammatory remarks about our military. Last Tuesday, on the Senate floor, Durbin condemned the U.S. military for its treatment of suspected al Qaeda terrorists held at the Guantanamo Bay prison. The senator compared the military's behavior at Guantanamo to the regimes of Adolph Hitler, Josef Stalin and pol pot.
The White House called Durbin's remarks reprehensible. Durbin refused to apologize.
Up next here, the best government money can buy. Why some in Congress may not have your best interest at heart as they debate a new energy bill.
Also, a shameful chapter for the dot-com economy for technology. Why capitalist high-tech heavy weights are bending over backwards to appease communist China. American values be dammed. That story is just next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: New evidence tonight that Congress, certain members of Congress, deep in the pockets of big oil as it debates new energy legislation. Lawmakers own sizable stakes in big oil companies, and critics are charging big oil owns Washington.
Christine Romans reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Members of Congress last year held more than $3 million in energy stocks. Congressional disclosure forms show House Majority Leader Tom DeLay and his wife own at least $50,000 in ExxonMobil. It's their only stock holding.
Republican Congressman Joe Barton helped write the energy bill last year. He owns Reliant and TXU. He's now the chairman of the Energy and Commerce Committee.
In the Senate, Democrat Jeff Bingaman sits on the energy panel, and with his wife own owns at least $96,000 in energy shares. His spokesman says a professional picks those stocks.
Owning stock is allowed, so long as it's disclosed.
TYSON SLOCUM, PUBLIC CITIZENS ENERGY GROUP: It's inappropriate for a member of Congress who deals with crafting energy legislation to have extensive personal financial investments in many of the energy companies that are going to be directly impacted by that legislation that he or she is writing.
ROMANS: But lawmakers' stock holdings, critics say, are nothing compared with oil money campaign donations. Since 1998, almost $68 million in donations, according to the Center for Public Integrity. And for every campaign dollar, the energy industry spends at least $6 more on lobbying. From 1998 to 2003, the industry spent more than $381 million lobbying the government on behalf of big oil.
LARRY NOBLE, CENTER FOR RESPONSIVE POLITICS: The tools that the industry has are campaign contributions, lobbying. They take members on trips, they have them speak before the industry. There are a lot of ways that the industry can really get close to a member and try to influence a member.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS: Then there's the revolving door. Half a dozen former officials of the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission now work at oil companies or lobby for them. To say nothing of the former members of Congress who set up their own lobby firms and then use that Washington access for their big new clients -- Lou.
DOBBS: Well, let's put that in perspective. How many former members of Congress are lobbyists?
ROMANS: Two hundred seventy-two, Lou, at least.
DOBBS: Well, they could form half of Congress just with -- with those numbers. Now, the idea that we should be concerned about legislation being influenced by big oil, put a number on that.
ROMANS: Let me tell you this, that Public Citizens says there are $12 billion in subsidies in the House energy bill that was already passed. Two billion dollars over 10 years for deep-water drilling in the Gulf of Mexico.
DOBBS: Wait a minute. Let me see if I got this right.
With oil at about $57 a barrel, the United States Congress, filled with free market enthusiasts, people who believe in the free enterprise system, are subsidizing big oil, making just terrific profits to the tune of $2 billion to explore for more oil?
ROMANS: That's exactly what the House bill says -- Lou.
DOBBS: Incredible. Christine Romans. Sometimes it is the best government money can buy. And I know you're going to continue reporting on this. ROMANS: Absolutely.
DOBBS: Thank you, Christine.
As the oil industry influences Congress, China is influencing the Internet and making it somewhat less than free. And most shameful and embarrassing of all, or at least it should be, U.S. companies are helping China in the effort.
Bill Tucker reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): One of the arguments for granting China permanent normal trade relations was the promise of the Internet.
WILLIAM JEFFERSON CLINTON, FMR. PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We know how much the Internet has changed America. And we are already an open society. Imagine how much it could change China.
TUCKER: But the Chinese government is working very hard to make sure that never happens. For Internet users in China, the reality is Orwellian, with big brother watching every key stroke.
A recent report by OpenNet Initiative reached this blunt conclusion: "China operates the most extensive, technologically sophisticated and broad-reaching system of Internet filtering in the world."
Much of that was made possible by American know-how and American companies like Cisco, 3Com, Sun Microsystems, Microsoft, Yahoo! and others doing business or selling technology to China. The companies don't like to talk about it.
JOHN PALFREY, HARVARD LAW SCHOOL: If you're a shareholder of Microsoft, you might well be cheering that Microsoft is willing to do what it takes to do business with the world's largest emerging market. If you're a human rights activist, or someone who cares about free speech, you might be decrying this as an extraordinary example of America's largest software company being complicit it in the world's worst censorship regime.
TUCKER: Human rights groups do exactly that, alleging that technology supply to China helps not only censor the Internet, but crack down on dissidents to be thrown in jail. The industry agrees China's censorship is a problem, but says that what China does with technology is out of its hands.
RICHARD D'AMATO, U.S.-CHINA ECONOMY AND SEC. REVIEW COMMISSION: That kind of explanation on the part of the companies is expectable, but it's a copout. And in the case of China, I think it's kind of shameful, because what they're doing is restricting the average Chinese access to information that will make his life better. And they need to take responsibility for that.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: As important as what the Chinese don't see is what they are allowed to see and read. And that includes a steady guide of rising Chinese nationalism, Lou, anti-democracy and anti-American comments.
DOBBS: Extraordinary. And no sense of embarrassment on the part of any of these companies and what they're doing.
TUCKER: Well, I don't know about that, Lou, because when we called these companies, they don't want to talk about it. They don't want to make a comment. Cisco did get back to us late in the day, saying, "We sell it to them. What they do with it is their business."
DOBBS: You know, that has a familiar refrain. I'm thinking back maybe 60, 65 years ago to Europe in a certain period of time. Thank you very much. Bill Tucker.
We also invited, of course, Cisco, 3Com and Sun Microsystems CEOs to join us or to have some representative of their companies to join us on this broadcast. To a person, to a company, they declined our invitations.
That brings us to the subject of our poll tonight. Do you believe American companies should compromise American values in order to win business in foreign countries, yes or no? Cast your vote at LouDobbs.com. We'll have the results later in the broadcast.
Coming up next, Iraq's violent insurgency. Is the United States making progress or losing ground? General David Grange joins us.
Also tonight, "Broken U.S. Borders." A special report tonight on surveillance systems that were promised -- that were to be the promise for border security, systems that still don't work, systems we're still being promised some day will. Meanwhile, illegal aliens are flowing across our border with Mexico.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: This week, the top U.S. commander in Iraq said multinational forces have defeated insurgents in some areas of Iraq only to see them rise stronger elsewhere. General George Casey called it the Pillsbury Dough Boy idea.
Joining me now for more on the rising intensity and persistence of the insurgency, General David Grange.
General, to hear these words from the U.S. commander in Iraq certainly cannot fill anyone with optimism about what's going on there. What's your reaction?
GEN. DAVID GRANGE, (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, my reaction is surviving insurgents, those that do not want to die, once the pressure is put on one region, flee to another region. Say with Vietnam, same in Beirut, and many other places of the history of insurgencies. But, I mean, he's right. That's exactly what's happening.
DOBBS: Coupling these comments from General Casey with those that reach all the way to General Myers, at the very top of the military, that militarily this may not be winnable, those remarking and others, what in the world is going on with our military? What should be going on in order to assure victory, if it can, indeed, be assured?
GRANGE: Well, I can assure you from my point of view that we can win this thing, and I believe we will win this thing. It's too much sacrifice to date not to win it. But it's tough. It's a long road ahead.
And in certain areas, troops get thinned out. There's not enough at times to do a -- do a mission. You can't cover all the area. You have to put your resources where you think the biggest payoff is going to be and rely on fledgling Iraqi fores as they're trained up to be capable.
DOBBS: There's always a great effort on the part of the White House, the administration, the Pentagon, to say that we in the media, whatever that always means when we say "we in the media" -- it's a rather disparate and diverse group of people -- but the fact is, accusing us of not focusing on the significant progress. Do you, as a military man, do you see the United States, the national media in particular, ignoring a great set of successes in Iraq that deserves greater attention?
GRANGE: At times, yes. There is bias in the media. It's a spectrum from being very pro and being very negative depending on the different networks. Competitive industry; market, obviously.
Today, it would be wonderful to have a little more talk on the capture of Zarqawi's lieutenant in Mosul. It would be better to talk about the hostage rescue of Douglas Wood, the Australian. But at the same time, the American people also know -- have to know how tough this is and that people are still dying. And some of the reasons are, at times, there's not resources in certain areas.
So there's a balance of reporting on this war that's necessary.
DOBBS: Mohammed Khalaf Shkarah, the al Qaeda head in Mosul, Zarqawi's agent and deputy, you think that's highly significant?
GRANGE: Very significant. These are key -- key people that we don't really have some tangible information yet on the affect it has on al Qaeda, on Zarqawi, on the insurgency. But it is significant. And it causes them to regroup, change their change of command -- chain of command, and regroup. And I like seeing them have to do that.
DOBBS: And I couldn't agree with you more, General Grange. Thank you for being here.
Coming up next, a high-tech failure on our broken borders. Millions and millions of dollars in taxpayer money wasted in the fight, the so-called fight to catch illegal aliens, a fight that we're obviously losing and losing in significant -- by significant margins.
And tonight, exporting America. I'll be talking with the author of a new book who says the outsourcing threat to this country may be here to stay.
Nonetheless, stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: In just a moment, I'll be talking with a congresswoman who says the illegal alien crisis is in fact a crisis for American democracy. But first these important stories tonight.
Southern California rocked this afternoon by a mild earthquake, measuring 4.9 on the Richter Scale. The earthquake wasn't strong, but it was felt over a wide area of Southern California from Los Angeles to San Diego in fact. No reports of injuries or damage.
New fears tonight about a global bird flu epidemic. Indonesia has now reported its first case of a human testing positive for avian flu. Bird flu has killed more than 40 people in Asia.
And Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney is supporting an effort to ban gay marriage in his state, the only state in the union in which gay marriage is now legal. A group opposed to gay marriage introduced the constitutional amendment today. The group must collect 66,000 signatures before it submits the initiatives to the state legislature to move it to teh ballot.
Tonight, shocking evidence that federal government is wasting your tax dollars as it fails to protect our border with Mexico. The government says it spent more than $200 million on surveillance cameras along our border but amazingly, many of those cameras were never even installed. Now the government wants to spend even more of your money, more than $2 billion now, on a new surveillance camera system rather than beef up the border patrol. Karen Schaler reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KAREN SCHALER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The concept, add surveillance cameras along the U.S. boarder to track down illegal border crossings. The government claims it paid more than $200 million for this project five years ago, but a recent government audit shows tax dollars were shelled out for work that was never done.
JOEL GALLAY, U.S. GENERAL SERVICES ADMIN: We found parts laying on the desert floor and in storage adjacent to border patrol property. We also found that the contractor ordered and billed the government for equipment that sat in warehouses sometimes for years.
SCHALER: The contractor, L-3 Communications, took questions from a House committee on Homeland Security. The contractor said the bill was closer to $100 million and it was money well spent. JOSEPH SAPONARO, L-3 COMMUNICATIONS: Well, we spent $100 million. And got 240 sites installed on the border, many of it being used successfully by border patrol agents today.
SCHALER: But of the eight camera locations audited in 2004, covering both the northern and southern border, none of the camera sites were fully operational. And at half of the locations, cameras weren't even installed yet.
REP. MIKE ROGERS, (R) ALABAMA: It's wasted taxpayer dollars. Worst of all, it's seriously weakened our border security.
REP. DAVE REICHERT, (R) WASHINGTON: In the post-September 11 world it's unacceptable for the Department of Homeland Security to waste this kind of money, hundreds of millions of dollars.
SCHALER: The Department of Homeland Security says about 80 percent of the border cameras are working right now, but DHS plans to unveil a new surveillance system that would cover the entire U.S. border at a cost of $2.5 billion.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHALER: Now the question repeatedly brought up at the hearing, how can congress spend $2.5 billion on another border surveillance program when the last attempt is considered such a huge waste of tax dollars? Now although invited, the Department of Homeland Security did not go to the hearing. DHS says it didn't exist when the program started, so it doesn't want to get involved now -- Lou.
DOBBS: It doesn't want to get involved now.
SCHALER: That's right. DHS says they want to focus on this new program that will cost $2.5 billion. Wasn't even around when this controversial last program. So it says it will stay out of it.
DOBBS: Did any member of Congress ask why, when the purpose of technology is to reduce costs, that this has not been both effective and in point of fact provided a great incentive to put more, thousands more, border patrol agents on our southern border?
SCHALER: The focus of Congress today was to ask basically the Department of Homeland Security to help out, to attend these hearings. And it said it doesn't seep how anyone can vote for a new proposal when this system obviously hasn't worked.
The system that cost the taxpayers $200 million, that's the estimate that the government gives, only accounted for two to 4 percent of the border. Again, we heard 80 percent of those cameras are working now, but that changes on a daily basis.
DOBBS: It changes on a daily basis. And I just want to be sure that we all understand this. The Department of Homeland Security did not attend the hearing?
SCHALER: That is exactly right, Lou. And as a matter of fact, at the hearing, all of the Congress people that spoke said we are asking DHS publicly right now to come. There's an empty seat right here. We've sent them a letter asking them questions. They have not responded.
When I spoke with DHS today they said again, they did not exist when this program started, they want to stay out of it and focus on their new program that they're about to pitch.
DOBBS: Incredible. They are responsible for border security, aren't they?
SCHALER: Absolutely.
DOBBS: Just wanted to make sure I understood the way the government works or doesn't work as the case may be. Karen Scaler, thank you very much.
Illegal aliens are a security threat to our nation. They are an economic threat to our economy. And my next guest says they are a threat to our democracy itself.
Congresswoman Candice Miller of Michigan says her state and many others are losing representation in Congress, because of the federal government's failure to control our borders and immigration. She says the bedrock notion of one man, one vote is in jeopardy. Congressman Miller joins us tonight from Capitol Hill.
Congresswoman, I want to say first of all it's a great pleasure to have you here.
REP. CANDICE MILLER (R) MICHIGAN: Thank you.
DOBBS: And I want to compliment you for taking on an issue that everyone has ignored save yourself, and that is the issue of representation and what is happening to this country as a result of illegal immigration on the census in the Congress. How could this have been permitted to go on so long?
MILLER: You know, perhaps ignorance. And I have to say I as well was not aware of this. So I just think as i've just dropped this in the hopper this week, actually literally in one week we are getting so many cosponsors. And what it is -- and first of all it's called House Joint Resolution 53. And it basically is asking for a constitutional amendment on to the 14th amendment of ridiculously simple constitutional amendment, literally changing a word, really. It currently says "people." In other words, the census bureau has to count all the people in each state. And I'm saying they should count citizens. And if they were to do that and only count citizens, there would actually be nine congressional districts that would be changing.
DOBBS: Again, because the census is now required to count persons as required by the 14th amendment of the constitution, and because we have an estimated, as many as 20 million illegal aliens in this country, the fact is that various states are simply -- they have more seats in Congress as a result of a census that includes illegal aliens? MILLER: It's really true. And a perfect example, no surprise to anyone, I suppose, is California. And just to give you a very vivid example, in Michigan tenth, the tenth congressional district in Michigan that I represent, the census says that the citizen population in my congressional district is 98 percent. In the 31st district of California, that's down where the Dodger stadium is, the census district says there is only 59 percent citizens within that congressional district. So you have several hundred thousand noncitizens who literally have the same vote on the floor of the United States House of Representatives as people who are taxpaying citizens of America. It's outrageous.
DOBBS: And it is outrageous. And we want to show everyone what the impact of this is, as best it can be discerned. Now, there are a couple ashumions we have got to talk about. One is, when you said 59 percent citizens in the 31st Congressional District in Los Angeles, that's based on some assumptions. But one assumption that we can make is that illegal aliens are underreported in point of fact in the census.
MILLER: Very much so.
DOBBS: And secondly, that the impact is probably even more profound than what we're about to show you. And what Congresswoman Miller has analyzed to this point, let's put up this map that we'll show you. These are the congressional seats that will be lost after illegal aliens are counted in those seats, these states alone.
Indiana, Kentucky, Michigan, Mississippi, Montana, Pennsylvania, Utah and Wisconsin, each would lose one seat. Meanwhile, California has gained six seats. Florida, New York and Texas each gaining one seat. What does this mean in dollars and cents? We understand what it means in terms of representation. A lot of people, a lot of states in which there are not illegal aliens, imagine that we can look at this as an advantage, I guess, politically to have illegal aliens. What is the impact in dollars and cents?
MILLER: Boy, it would be really hard to estimate what it is. Obviously, there are some guesstimates that illegal aliens cost our society $20 billion to $30 billion. When you think of the impact on our educational system, on our hospitals, health care systems, et cetera, I think it would be difficult to say what that is, what the dollar amount is.
But it is an easy thing for people to understand, that this is an issue very much, a basic issue I think of principle and of fairness. And as you mentioned in the outset here, Lou, really, our democracy, our entire system is based on a fundamental caveat of one man, one vote; yet you have all these illegal aliens who can't even vote or shouldn't be voting if they are, and yet they have the same representation as a citizen, and citizens are having their vote diluted. And it just is very, very unfair.
DOBBS: If nothing else should awaken people in this country to the crisis that we're facing in terms of illegal immigration, the fact we basically turned over the immigration policy of this country to President Vicente Fox, since this president and this Congress won't take the lead on immigration policy and enforcing immigration laws, this certainly should, because we're throwing away American representation, American political values. It's extraordinary.
MILLER: It's unbelievable. They really are having sway. Illegal aliens in this country are having sway on national policy. Votes that are happening each and every day in the United States Congress on policy, on budgetary kinds of things, on national security, on homeland security, on whether or not we should be enforcing our borders better than we are, all of these kinds of things illegal aliens are being represented on the floor of the United States Congress, and it has to stop. And again, it can stop by a very simple constitutional amendment. House Joint Resolution 53 for any of your listeners that want to lobby their own members of the Congress, particularly in these states that are losing seats because of this, certainly those members of Congress, and talk to the senators as well.
DOBBS: As a matter of fact, what we'll do, that's HR 53...
MILLER: Yes.
DOBBS: Congresswoman Candice Miller introducing the legislation. You've picked up sponsors. Is it your sense you're going to have the support necessary to move this through?
MILLER: I think it's going to be very difficult, Lou. I think it's an uphill battle, but I think it's a fight worth fighting, because a constitutional amendment, of course, is very difficult as it should be, but it does require two-thirds vote in both chambers, in both the House and the Senate, and then three-quarters of the states must ratify.
DOBBS: I don't think that the founding fathers, as prescient and wise as they were, could ever imagine that future generations of Americans would choose to ignore the nation's sovereignty and its borders. Certainly this looks like an issue in which it's time to make amends, and in this case amend the constitution.
Congresswoman, we thank you. It's House Resolution 53, HR 53. We're going to put it on our Web site. We're going to ask you to also, if you would like to support Congresswoman Miller's legislation, go to her Web site. We'll have it on ours beginning this evening. So we thank you very much for being here.
MILLER: Thank you so much.
DOBBS: Still ahead, he tried to run to Mexico, but couldn't hide, as it turned out. A wanted illegal alien now facing justice in the United States. Is this the beginning of cooperation between the Mexican government and U.S. authorities? We'll see. And we'll have the story for you.
Later, "Exporting America." My guest tonight says outsourcing is a lose/lose situation for American employees, businesses, and yes, even the U.S. government. The author of "Outsourcing America" will be here to tell us why. Stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Los Angeles officials tonight are claiming victory, now that fugitive alien Ricardo Rodriguez is back in U.S. custody. Rodriguez is wanted for trying to kill two sheriff's deputies. He thought he could escape U.S. law by running to Mexico. This time, he was wrong. Casey Wian reports from Los Angeles.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Ricardo Rodriguez, a Mexican illegal alien, is accused of fleeing two sheriff's deputies trying to pull him over for running a red light. After a brief chase, deputies say he opened fire on them with an assault rifle, just 100 yards from a playground filled with children.
No one was injured, but Rodriguez, like so many other criminals facing either life in prison or the death penalty, escaped and fled to Mexico. A year later, he's back in U.S. custody, in a rare case of cooperation by the Mexican government.
STEVE COOLEY, LA COUNTY DA: We are hopeful that this one particular case today is a good beginning, a first beginning, to help resolve some of the issues that remain between authorities on this side of the border and our Mexican counterparts.
WIAN: Rodriguez is the first suspect facing life in prison extradited by Mexico to Los Angeles in four years. Because of a Mexican Supreme Court ruling in 2001, Mexico refuses to extradite suspects who face either life in prison without parole or the death penalty. A members of the Mexican attorney general staff says Rodriguez was returned because he will be eligible for a parole hearing within 60 years. He says it does not represent a change in Mexican policy.
In recent years, Mexico has nearly tripled the number of criminals extradited to the United States. Still, hundreds of murderers, rapists and other violent criminals are either in Mexican jails or running free there.
SHERIFF LEE BACA, LA COUNTY: When you put this in the context of the hundreds of cases that the district attorney's office has to handle regarding illegal immigrants fleeing back to their home countries, this is a small step in the right direction, but, indeed, it is in no way reflective of the magnitude of the problem that we here.
WIAN: Los Angeles DA Cooley wouldn't say if this case would hasten the capture and extradition of Armando Garcia, the alleged killer of LA Sheriff's Deputy David March. He did say, wait until that day arrives, and you'll see how much justice will receive.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: In the meantime, two Republican lawmakers are planning to introduce legislation that would deny foreign aid to Mexico or any other country that refuses to extradite cop killers without strings attached, Lou.
DOBBS: An important step also. This may be an important beginning between the government of Mexico and the United States, and certainly District Attorney Cooley and Sheriff Baca deserve great credit for their unrelenting efforts to bring about justice here.
WIAN: Absolutely, and those efforts are continuing. Both law enforcement officials say they are aggressively pursuing cop killers and other suspected murderers in Mexico and that they are beginning to get more cooperation from Mexican authorities, Lou.
DOBBS: Casey Wian, reporting from Los Angeles. Thank you, Casey.
The government of Mexico this afternoon gave us this statement regarding the Rodriguez extradition. The Mexican government telling us, quote, "With the extradition of Ricardo Rodriguez by Mexico to the United States, the government of Mexico illustrates once more its compliance with the obligations set forth in the bilateral treaty of extradition."
Coming up next, how outsourcing can hurt the U.S. government as well as American workers. The author of "Outsourcing America" is our guest here, next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: My guest tonight says there's no silver bullet to end the export of American jobs to cheap foreign labor markets. In this new book "Outsourcing America," he offers a wide range of practical, intelligent ways, however, to stem the flow of those jobs.
Ron Hira is the coauthor of "Outsourcing America," and is our guest here tonight. Ron, good to have you. It is a terrific book. I have to confess to everyone that I did write the forward to your book.
RON HIRA, CO-AUTHOR "OUTSOURCING AMERICA": Much appreciate it.
DOBBS: Well, I'm very honored to have been asked to do so. It's terrific.
The idea that outsourcing is not good for the U.S. government, why not?
HIRA: Well, it's good for companies. That's pretty clear. It's bad for U.S. workers. I think that's pretty clear. Is it good in the net for the U.S.? That's really unclear and uncertain and it's going to depend on what we do in response to this outsourcing.
DOBBS: What do you think we should do?
HIRA: Well, I think we need to take a number of practical steps. There's no single silver bullet, but the first step is to acknowledge a problem exists.
DOBBS: Why won't businesses, cooperate leaders, acknowledge this practice and the depth of it and the breadth of it?
HIRA: Well, this is a major hole and a major void and a place where basically government has dropped the ball. We've been reliant on management consulting, reports on how much outsourcing is going on, and companies, understandably, don't want to take a public relations hit. It's in their self-interest to keep a veil of secrecy over this, and all to...
DOBBS: And they have the complicity of the Commerce Department, the Labor Department. I mean, let's be honest. This is an outright conspiracy of silence over the practice.
HIRA: Well, there's only been one single report that's been done and it's only been funded at $335,000. That study has been complete for more than a year but has not been released publicly.
DOBBS: You're a professor. You are a man who lives in a world of freedom of expression. What has been the reaction to your book on the part of your fellow academics?
HIRA: Well, I've gotten some good endorsements from some academics and gotten some play, but by and large, if you say anything about, you know, concern with outsourcing, somehow you become ostracized within the profession, to a degree, and I think that's unfortunate, because with academic freedom, you would expect we'd have a better dialogue.
DOBBS: You would expect. One gets tired, but one does not cease to expect orthodoxy in politics, orthodoxy in business, but when our academia is high-bound with orthodoxy, it's frightening, indeed.
Ron Hira, it is a great book. The book is "Outsourcing America" and we appreciate you being here. We'll talk more.
HIRA: Thanks so much.
DOBBS: Thank you.
Still ahead, the results of our poll. A look at what's ahead tomorrow. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Now, the results of our poll tonight: 94 percent of you say American companies should not compromise American values in order to win business in foreign countries, 6 percent of you say they should.
Thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us here tomorrow. Why one author says our economy is like the Titanic heading toward that iceberg. The author of "Three Billion New Capitalists" is our guest here.
And "Heroes," our special weekly feature on our men and women in uniform, how one brave Marine risked his life and saved his platoon. We'll have his inspiring story. Be with us. For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" starts right now. Anderson?
END
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Aired June 16, 2005 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: And good evening, everybody. Tonight, nuclear stalemate with the last two members of the axis of evil. Why a growing number of officials are warning the nuclear standoffs with Iran and North Korea will never be solved with diplomacy alone.
Also tonight, the best government money can buy. Congress is close to approving legislation that will greatly affect energy companies in this country. And at the same time, many members of Congress are major shareholders in those energy companies. We'll have that special report for you tonight.
And China's power grab over the Internet. China's communist government is going to extraordinary lengths to block its citizens from talking about democracy, and American companies are helping them in the effort.
But first tonight, the urgent need for reform at United Nations. Congress could soon block millions of dollars in funding for the United Nations until it undergoes a massive reorganization. The White House is urging Congress not to pass legislation, but U.N. Secretary- General Kofi Annan, distracted by his own scandal, says he's encouraged the United States is working to reform the United Nations.
Richard Roth reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RICHARD ROTH, CNN SR. UNITED NATIONS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): On Capitol Hill, the House of Representatives wants a get tough approach.
REP. MIKE PENCE (R), INDIANA: It is time to put the power of the purse behind the necessary reforms of the United Nations.
ROTH: Reform bill sponsors are threatening to withhold up to 50 percent of U.S. dues if nearly 40 different reforms are not adopted by the U.N. within two years.
REP. ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN (R), FLORIDA: It redistricts funds to specific areas, priority areas, so that the U.N. bureaucrats and their corruption can no longer defend programs that are to the rational observer just indefensible.
ROTH: But the Bush administration, which wants John Bolton as ambassador to the U.N. to be the get tough messenger, opposes the dues withholding bill. Secretary of State Rice doesn't like the idea, and one of her deputies says it will diminish U.S. credibility as a leading company.
Former Republican House speaker Newt Gingrich and former Senate Democratic leader George Mitchell gave Congress their own taskforce report this week on U.N. reform but opposed cutting contributions. Oil-for-food scandals, peacekeeper sex abuses and low morale are just some of the reasons for organizational change.
NEWT GINGRICH, FMR. HOUSE SPEAKER: But I think there's a much deeper mood that something has to be fixed or the U.N. will simply crease to be relevant at some point.
ROTH: Most of the rest of the world is focused on getting new seats up for grabs on an expanded Security Council. The U.S. now says it favors two or so new permanent seats. But the U.S. wants the reforms that Congress wants to come first.
CONDOLEEZZA RICE, SECRETARY OF STATE: We are not prepared to have Security Council reforms sprint out ahead of the other extremely important reforms that have to take place.
ROTH: Rice defended the U.N. secretary-general, who has his own reform package on the table. But Kofi Annan can't escape his oil-for- food troubles. He declined to comment on an e-mail from a family friend who claimed in 1998 he met with Annan a week before his company was awarded a lucrative oil-for-food contract. That e-mail now being urgently examined by the U.N. authorized probe led by Paul Volcker.
KOFI ANNAN, U.N. SECRETARY-GENERAL: Mr. Volcker will be looking into all that. I will leave him to it. And I would also plead with you to resist the temptation to substitute yourself for the Volcker commission. Please let him do his work.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROTH: When asked if he would resign if Paul Volcker declared Annan didn't reveal all, the secretary-general said that's a speculative question. As for the House reform bill, it's being debated right now. A vote is likely tomorrow.
There is an alternative version from Democratic Congressman Lantos. He says the current high diversion is like a guillotine on auto pilot. It would give Secretary of State Rice the power to decide if withholding should kick in -- Lou.
DOBBS: All right. It looks like the Congress is going to insert itself here irrespective of the wishes of Secretary of State Rice or the president. This is a strong momentum building behind these -- these measures.
U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan, there was just a tinge of sanctimonious about his remark given that all that has transpired under his administration. That is, the sex scandal with the peacekeeping forces, the oil-for-food scandal. And he's advising journalists not to probe too deeply here.
ROTH: And that was my question. Yes, he only took three questions at the press conference after the Volcker report which "exonerated" him in the secretary-general's idea that day. And he's not met the press to have a clear-all news conference to answer the many questions.
No matter which way it's going to go, it doesn't look great when the main man does not take questions. He likes to think we're trying to be Eliot Ness and investigators when this story is a credible story that should be asked and answered.
DOBBS: Eliot Ness and investigators are actually domiciled in Washington, D.C. under the leadership of Norm Coleman and the U.S. Senate.
Richard Roth, thank you very much.
Also on Capitol Hill, a bipartisan group of congressmen calling upon President Bush to begin planning for the withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq. They've introduced a non-binding resolution in the House that calls for the withdrawal of U.S. troops to begin sometime next year.
One sponsor of the measure is Republican Congressman Walter Jones of North Carolina. He's perhaps best known for renaming French fries served on Capitol Hill to "freedom fries." The White House responded to the resolution by saying President Bush plans to "sharpen his focus on the war." Those the words of his director of communications at the White House, Dan Bartlett.
President Bush today also blasted Iran on the eve of that country's presidential election. The president released a statement saying that power in Iran is "in the hands of an unelected few who have retained power through an electoral process that ignores the basic requirements of democracy." President Bush said tomorrow's elections are consistent with that record.
President Bush's blast of Iran comes as many officials say diplomatic efforts to end Iran and North Korea's nuclear weapons programs are all but dead.
Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This week, a top U.S. diplomat told the Senate Foreign Relations Committee there are increasing doubts North Korea will give up its nuclear program. He admitted U.S. officials have met quietly with North Korean diplomats five times at the U.N. in the last year.
CHRISTOPHER HILL, ASSIST. SECRETARY FOR EAST ASIA AFFAIRS: We engaged in those meetings because we want the North Koreans to hear the U.S. position directly from us.
PILGRIM: Today, U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice appeared to strike a tougher line about what was expected. RICE: No, it's not enough to just return to the talks. You have to be willing to come back and talk about what the talks are about, and that is the dismantling of the North Korean nuclear program.
PILGRIM: President Bush met with South Korean President Roh last week, but allies in the region have had little success. Talks have stalled for a year.
And in that year, North Korea declared itself a nuclear weapons state, conducted a short range ballistic missile test, and announced it was reprocessing another load of plutonium from Pyongyang reactor. A similar lack of progress can also be cited with Iran. Yet Iran, too, continues to declare its sovereign right to develop its nuclear program.
Today, the IAEA, the nuclear watchdog agency, reported Iran continued its pattern of lying and was discovered to be trying to make plutonium. Some nuclear experts say the diplomatic solutions are all but played out in Iran and North Korea.
HENRY SOKOLSKI, NONPROLIFERATION POLICY EDUCATION CENTER: The quick fix is hugging them through diplomacy to get them to change their minds about their bomb projects or bombing away the problems that are not in the cards.
PILGRIM: Lawmakers differ sharply on whether a softer or tougher approach should be adopted to achieve results in both North Korea and Iran.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Now, concerns are rising that both countries are playing the world for time. Iran and North Korea continue to press ahead, and the diplomatic route is having absolutely no impact on the reality on the ground -- Lou.
DOBBS: Kitty Pilgrim. Thank you.
The United Nations Nuclear Monitoring Group today agreed to exempt Saudi Arabia from nuclear inspections. Board members of the International Atomic Energy Agency, the U.N.'s IAEA, approved that deal unanimously. Saudi Arabia will be allowed to sign an accord stating that it has little or no nuclear material, thereby leave no need for inspections.
The United States, the European Union and Australia all urge Saudi Arabia to withdrawal its request for that deal. The Saudis obviously refused, and the IAEA complied.
In Iraq, insurgents attacked an armored Humvee, killing all five U.S. Marines on board. The bombing in Ramadi, the second such attack in a week. An American sailor was also killed in gunfire in Ramadi. The rising insurgency in Iraq is also targeting Iraqi citizens.
Jennifer Eccleston reports from Baghdad.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JENNIFER ECCLESTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, a spokesman for the multinational forces here in Iraq announced that hundreds, maybe more than a thousand, civilians have died in Iraq since the escalation of insurgent attacks in early May. That's Brigadier Donald Alston. He said the rise coincides with comments attributed to terrorist Abu Musab al-Zarqawi last month.
BRIG. GEN. DONALD ALSTON, MULTINATIONAL FORCES SPOKESMAN: With Zarqawi's push recently, we certainly see the fantastic rise in the number of civilians killed, given that he has proclaimed that taking out civilians is an acceptable thing. And that's hundreds or perhaps more than a thousand in just the short amount of time since his proclamation in early May.
ECCLESTON: He also said Iraqi security forces' casualties have grown as their numbers have grown, saying they're confidence and growing capability make them a better target for insurgents. And with that, we saw three separate attacks on security and police today. The deadliest, that car bomb at Baghdad's Airport Road killed three police and wounded 22 others.
This day also brought the announcement that six American troops were killed yesterday, five Marines and one sailor. The Marines and the sailor were killed outside of Ramadi in the restive of Anbar province. In the first incident, it involved a roadside bomb, and the sailor died from wounds from small arms fire from the enemy.
Now, we also heard today from the U.S. military that a man described as al Qaeda's leader in Mosul has been captured. He's identified as Mohammed Khalaf Shkarah, known as Abu Talha.
He was captured Tuesday according to Brigadier General Donald Alston. Alston said that he was a trusted agent of terrorist mastermind Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and he was found in a quiet neighborhood. There were numerous reports according to that U.S. official that he wore a suicide vest 24 hours a day and that he said he would never surrender. But General Alston said he gave up without fight and that he was arrested because of a tip from an Iraqi civilian.
Jennifer Eccleston, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Forty-seven of our troops have now been killed in Iraq in the first half of this month. That is more than the death toll for the entire month of March, when 36 Americans were killed. It is also higher than the death toll for June of last year. Forty-two American troops were killed last June. That the same month that coalition forces handed over sovereignty to Iraq.
1,713 Americans have been killed in Iraq since the war began more than two years ago.
Congressman John Conyers convened a special Democratic forum on Capitol Hill today. The purpose of the forum, to discuss the now famous Downing Street Memo.
The memo, dated July 23, 2002, summarizes a report from a high- ranking British intelligence official who had just returned from Washington. And according to that memo, the Bush administration was already resolved to remove Saddam Hussein through military action as early as the summer of 2002, a fact that the Bush administration has disputed.
The memo says, "The intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy." Because that memo is dated before Congress authorized military action and before the United Nations vote, the Democrats are charging Congress was misled by the administration. Again, the administration absolutely denies the allegation.
Tonight, the White House blasted Congressman -- rather Senator Richard Durbin, the number two Democrat in the Senate, for his inflammatory remarks about our military. Last Tuesday, on the Senate floor, Durbin condemned the U.S. military for its treatment of suspected al Qaeda terrorists held at the Guantanamo Bay prison. The senator compared the military's behavior at Guantanamo to the regimes of Adolph Hitler, Josef Stalin and pol pot.
The White House called Durbin's remarks reprehensible. Durbin refused to apologize.
Up next here, the best government money can buy. Why some in Congress may not have your best interest at heart as they debate a new energy bill.
Also, a shameful chapter for the dot-com economy for technology. Why capitalist high-tech heavy weights are bending over backwards to appease communist China. American values be dammed. That story is just next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: New evidence tonight that Congress, certain members of Congress, deep in the pockets of big oil as it debates new energy legislation. Lawmakers own sizable stakes in big oil companies, and critics are charging big oil owns Washington.
Christine Romans reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Members of Congress last year held more than $3 million in energy stocks. Congressional disclosure forms show House Majority Leader Tom DeLay and his wife own at least $50,000 in ExxonMobil. It's their only stock holding.
Republican Congressman Joe Barton helped write the energy bill last year. He owns Reliant and TXU. He's now the chairman of the Energy and Commerce Committee.
In the Senate, Democrat Jeff Bingaman sits on the energy panel, and with his wife own owns at least $96,000 in energy shares. His spokesman says a professional picks those stocks.
Owning stock is allowed, so long as it's disclosed.
TYSON SLOCUM, PUBLIC CITIZENS ENERGY GROUP: It's inappropriate for a member of Congress who deals with crafting energy legislation to have extensive personal financial investments in many of the energy companies that are going to be directly impacted by that legislation that he or she is writing.
ROMANS: But lawmakers' stock holdings, critics say, are nothing compared with oil money campaign donations. Since 1998, almost $68 million in donations, according to the Center for Public Integrity. And for every campaign dollar, the energy industry spends at least $6 more on lobbying. From 1998 to 2003, the industry spent more than $381 million lobbying the government on behalf of big oil.
LARRY NOBLE, CENTER FOR RESPONSIVE POLITICS: The tools that the industry has are campaign contributions, lobbying. They take members on trips, they have them speak before the industry. There are a lot of ways that the industry can really get close to a member and try to influence a member.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS: Then there's the revolving door. Half a dozen former officials of the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission now work at oil companies or lobby for them. To say nothing of the former members of Congress who set up their own lobby firms and then use that Washington access for their big new clients -- Lou.
DOBBS: Well, let's put that in perspective. How many former members of Congress are lobbyists?
ROMANS: Two hundred seventy-two, Lou, at least.
DOBBS: Well, they could form half of Congress just with -- with those numbers. Now, the idea that we should be concerned about legislation being influenced by big oil, put a number on that.
ROMANS: Let me tell you this, that Public Citizens says there are $12 billion in subsidies in the House energy bill that was already passed. Two billion dollars over 10 years for deep-water drilling in the Gulf of Mexico.
DOBBS: Wait a minute. Let me see if I got this right.
With oil at about $57 a barrel, the United States Congress, filled with free market enthusiasts, people who believe in the free enterprise system, are subsidizing big oil, making just terrific profits to the tune of $2 billion to explore for more oil?
ROMANS: That's exactly what the House bill says -- Lou.
DOBBS: Incredible. Christine Romans. Sometimes it is the best government money can buy. And I know you're going to continue reporting on this. ROMANS: Absolutely.
DOBBS: Thank you, Christine.
As the oil industry influences Congress, China is influencing the Internet and making it somewhat less than free. And most shameful and embarrassing of all, or at least it should be, U.S. companies are helping China in the effort.
Bill Tucker reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): One of the arguments for granting China permanent normal trade relations was the promise of the Internet.
WILLIAM JEFFERSON CLINTON, FMR. PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We know how much the Internet has changed America. And we are already an open society. Imagine how much it could change China.
TUCKER: But the Chinese government is working very hard to make sure that never happens. For Internet users in China, the reality is Orwellian, with big brother watching every key stroke.
A recent report by OpenNet Initiative reached this blunt conclusion: "China operates the most extensive, technologically sophisticated and broad-reaching system of Internet filtering in the world."
Much of that was made possible by American know-how and American companies like Cisco, 3Com, Sun Microsystems, Microsoft, Yahoo! and others doing business or selling technology to China. The companies don't like to talk about it.
JOHN PALFREY, HARVARD LAW SCHOOL: If you're a shareholder of Microsoft, you might well be cheering that Microsoft is willing to do what it takes to do business with the world's largest emerging market. If you're a human rights activist, or someone who cares about free speech, you might be decrying this as an extraordinary example of America's largest software company being complicit it in the world's worst censorship regime.
TUCKER: Human rights groups do exactly that, alleging that technology supply to China helps not only censor the Internet, but crack down on dissidents to be thrown in jail. The industry agrees China's censorship is a problem, but says that what China does with technology is out of its hands.
RICHARD D'AMATO, U.S.-CHINA ECONOMY AND SEC. REVIEW COMMISSION: That kind of explanation on the part of the companies is expectable, but it's a copout. And in the case of China, I think it's kind of shameful, because what they're doing is restricting the average Chinese access to information that will make his life better. And they need to take responsibility for that.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: As important as what the Chinese don't see is what they are allowed to see and read. And that includes a steady guide of rising Chinese nationalism, Lou, anti-democracy and anti-American comments.
DOBBS: Extraordinary. And no sense of embarrassment on the part of any of these companies and what they're doing.
TUCKER: Well, I don't know about that, Lou, because when we called these companies, they don't want to talk about it. They don't want to make a comment. Cisco did get back to us late in the day, saying, "We sell it to them. What they do with it is their business."
DOBBS: You know, that has a familiar refrain. I'm thinking back maybe 60, 65 years ago to Europe in a certain period of time. Thank you very much. Bill Tucker.
We also invited, of course, Cisco, 3Com and Sun Microsystems CEOs to join us or to have some representative of their companies to join us on this broadcast. To a person, to a company, they declined our invitations.
That brings us to the subject of our poll tonight. Do you believe American companies should compromise American values in order to win business in foreign countries, yes or no? Cast your vote at LouDobbs.com. We'll have the results later in the broadcast.
Coming up next, Iraq's violent insurgency. Is the United States making progress or losing ground? General David Grange joins us.
Also tonight, "Broken U.S. Borders." A special report tonight on surveillance systems that were promised -- that were to be the promise for border security, systems that still don't work, systems we're still being promised some day will. Meanwhile, illegal aliens are flowing across our border with Mexico.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: This week, the top U.S. commander in Iraq said multinational forces have defeated insurgents in some areas of Iraq only to see them rise stronger elsewhere. General George Casey called it the Pillsbury Dough Boy idea.
Joining me now for more on the rising intensity and persistence of the insurgency, General David Grange.
General, to hear these words from the U.S. commander in Iraq certainly cannot fill anyone with optimism about what's going on there. What's your reaction?
GEN. DAVID GRANGE, (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, my reaction is surviving insurgents, those that do not want to die, once the pressure is put on one region, flee to another region. Say with Vietnam, same in Beirut, and many other places of the history of insurgencies. But, I mean, he's right. That's exactly what's happening.
DOBBS: Coupling these comments from General Casey with those that reach all the way to General Myers, at the very top of the military, that militarily this may not be winnable, those remarking and others, what in the world is going on with our military? What should be going on in order to assure victory, if it can, indeed, be assured?
GRANGE: Well, I can assure you from my point of view that we can win this thing, and I believe we will win this thing. It's too much sacrifice to date not to win it. But it's tough. It's a long road ahead.
And in certain areas, troops get thinned out. There's not enough at times to do a -- do a mission. You can't cover all the area. You have to put your resources where you think the biggest payoff is going to be and rely on fledgling Iraqi fores as they're trained up to be capable.
DOBBS: There's always a great effort on the part of the White House, the administration, the Pentagon, to say that we in the media, whatever that always means when we say "we in the media" -- it's a rather disparate and diverse group of people -- but the fact is, accusing us of not focusing on the significant progress. Do you, as a military man, do you see the United States, the national media in particular, ignoring a great set of successes in Iraq that deserves greater attention?
GRANGE: At times, yes. There is bias in the media. It's a spectrum from being very pro and being very negative depending on the different networks. Competitive industry; market, obviously.
Today, it would be wonderful to have a little more talk on the capture of Zarqawi's lieutenant in Mosul. It would be better to talk about the hostage rescue of Douglas Wood, the Australian. But at the same time, the American people also know -- have to know how tough this is and that people are still dying. And some of the reasons are, at times, there's not resources in certain areas.
So there's a balance of reporting on this war that's necessary.
DOBBS: Mohammed Khalaf Shkarah, the al Qaeda head in Mosul, Zarqawi's agent and deputy, you think that's highly significant?
GRANGE: Very significant. These are key -- key people that we don't really have some tangible information yet on the affect it has on al Qaeda, on Zarqawi, on the insurgency. But it is significant. And it causes them to regroup, change their change of command -- chain of command, and regroup. And I like seeing them have to do that.
DOBBS: And I couldn't agree with you more, General Grange. Thank you for being here.
Coming up next, a high-tech failure on our broken borders. Millions and millions of dollars in taxpayer money wasted in the fight, the so-called fight to catch illegal aliens, a fight that we're obviously losing and losing in significant -- by significant margins.
And tonight, exporting America. I'll be talking with the author of a new book who says the outsourcing threat to this country may be here to stay.
Nonetheless, stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: In just a moment, I'll be talking with a congresswoman who says the illegal alien crisis is in fact a crisis for American democracy. But first these important stories tonight.
Southern California rocked this afternoon by a mild earthquake, measuring 4.9 on the Richter Scale. The earthquake wasn't strong, but it was felt over a wide area of Southern California from Los Angeles to San Diego in fact. No reports of injuries or damage.
New fears tonight about a global bird flu epidemic. Indonesia has now reported its first case of a human testing positive for avian flu. Bird flu has killed more than 40 people in Asia.
And Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney is supporting an effort to ban gay marriage in his state, the only state in the union in which gay marriage is now legal. A group opposed to gay marriage introduced the constitutional amendment today. The group must collect 66,000 signatures before it submits the initiatives to the state legislature to move it to teh ballot.
Tonight, shocking evidence that federal government is wasting your tax dollars as it fails to protect our border with Mexico. The government says it spent more than $200 million on surveillance cameras along our border but amazingly, many of those cameras were never even installed. Now the government wants to spend even more of your money, more than $2 billion now, on a new surveillance camera system rather than beef up the border patrol. Karen Schaler reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KAREN SCHALER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The concept, add surveillance cameras along the U.S. boarder to track down illegal border crossings. The government claims it paid more than $200 million for this project five years ago, but a recent government audit shows tax dollars were shelled out for work that was never done.
JOEL GALLAY, U.S. GENERAL SERVICES ADMIN: We found parts laying on the desert floor and in storage adjacent to border patrol property. We also found that the contractor ordered and billed the government for equipment that sat in warehouses sometimes for years.
SCHALER: The contractor, L-3 Communications, took questions from a House committee on Homeland Security. The contractor said the bill was closer to $100 million and it was money well spent. JOSEPH SAPONARO, L-3 COMMUNICATIONS: Well, we spent $100 million. And got 240 sites installed on the border, many of it being used successfully by border patrol agents today.
SCHALER: But of the eight camera locations audited in 2004, covering both the northern and southern border, none of the camera sites were fully operational. And at half of the locations, cameras weren't even installed yet.
REP. MIKE ROGERS, (R) ALABAMA: It's wasted taxpayer dollars. Worst of all, it's seriously weakened our border security.
REP. DAVE REICHERT, (R) WASHINGTON: In the post-September 11 world it's unacceptable for the Department of Homeland Security to waste this kind of money, hundreds of millions of dollars.
SCHALER: The Department of Homeland Security says about 80 percent of the border cameras are working right now, but DHS plans to unveil a new surveillance system that would cover the entire U.S. border at a cost of $2.5 billion.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHALER: Now the question repeatedly brought up at the hearing, how can congress spend $2.5 billion on another border surveillance program when the last attempt is considered such a huge waste of tax dollars? Now although invited, the Department of Homeland Security did not go to the hearing. DHS says it didn't exist when the program started, so it doesn't want to get involved now -- Lou.
DOBBS: It doesn't want to get involved now.
SCHALER: That's right. DHS says they want to focus on this new program that will cost $2.5 billion. Wasn't even around when this controversial last program. So it says it will stay out of it.
DOBBS: Did any member of Congress ask why, when the purpose of technology is to reduce costs, that this has not been both effective and in point of fact provided a great incentive to put more, thousands more, border patrol agents on our southern border?
SCHALER: The focus of Congress today was to ask basically the Department of Homeland Security to help out, to attend these hearings. And it said it doesn't seep how anyone can vote for a new proposal when this system obviously hasn't worked.
The system that cost the taxpayers $200 million, that's the estimate that the government gives, only accounted for two to 4 percent of the border. Again, we heard 80 percent of those cameras are working now, but that changes on a daily basis.
DOBBS: It changes on a daily basis. And I just want to be sure that we all understand this. The Department of Homeland Security did not attend the hearing?
SCHALER: That is exactly right, Lou. And as a matter of fact, at the hearing, all of the Congress people that spoke said we are asking DHS publicly right now to come. There's an empty seat right here. We've sent them a letter asking them questions. They have not responded.
When I spoke with DHS today they said again, they did not exist when this program started, they want to stay out of it and focus on their new program that they're about to pitch.
DOBBS: Incredible. They are responsible for border security, aren't they?
SCHALER: Absolutely.
DOBBS: Just wanted to make sure I understood the way the government works or doesn't work as the case may be. Karen Scaler, thank you very much.
Illegal aliens are a security threat to our nation. They are an economic threat to our economy. And my next guest says they are a threat to our democracy itself.
Congresswoman Candice Miller of Michigan says her state and many others are losing representation in Congress, because of the federal government's failure to control our borders and immigration. She says the bedrock notion of one man, one vote is in jeopardy. Congressman Miller joins us tonight from Capitol Hill.
Congresswoman, I want to say first of all it's a great pleasure to have you here.
REP. CANDICE MILLER (R) MICHIGAN: Thank you.
DOBBS: And I want to compliment you for taking on an issue that everyone has ignored save yourself, and that is the issue of representation and what is happening to this country as a result of illegal immigration on the census in the Congress. How could this have been permitted to go on so long?
MILLER: You know, perhaps ignorance. And I have to say I as well was not aware of this. So I just think as i've just dropped this in the hopper this week, actually literally in one week we are getting so many cosponsors. And what it is -- and first of all it's called House Joint Resolution 53. And it basically is asking for a constitutional amendment on to the 14th amendment of ridiculously simple constitutional amendment, literally changing a word, really. It currently says "people." In other words, the census bureau has to count all the people in each state. And I'm saying they should count citizens. And if they were to do that and only count citizens, there would actually be nine congressional districts that would be changing.
DOBBS: Again, because the census is now required to count persons as required by the 14th amendment of the constitution, and because we have an estimated, as many as 20 million illegal aliens in this country, the fact is that various states are simply -- they have more seats in Congress as a result of a census that includes illegal aliens? MILLER: It's really true. And a perfect example, no surprise to anyone, I suppose, is California. And just to give you a very vivid example, in Michigan tenth, the tenth congressional district in Michigan that I represent, the census says that the citizen population in my congressional district is 98 percent. In the 31st district of California, that's down where the Dodger stadium is, the census district says there is only 59 percent citizens within that congressional district. So you have several hundred thousand noncitizens who literally have the same vote on the floor of the United States House of Representatives as people who are taxpaying citizens of America. It's outrageous.
DOBBS: And it is outrageous. And we want to show everyone what the impact of this is, as best it can be discerned. Now, there are a couple ashumions we have got to talk about. One is, when you said 59 percent citizens in the 31st Congressional District in Los Angeles, that's based on some assumptions. But one assumption that we can make is that illegal aliens are underreported in point of fact in the census.
MILLER: Very much so.
DOBBS: And secondly, that the impact is probably even more profound than what we're about to show you. And what Congresswoman Miller has analyzed to this point, let's put up this map that we'll show you. These are the congressional seats that will be lost after illegal aliens are counted in those seats, these states alone.
Indiana, Kentucky, Michigan, Mississippi, Montana, Pennsylvania, Utah and Wisconsin, each would lose one seat. Meanwhile, California has gained six seats. Florida, New York and Texas each gaining one seat. What does this mean in dollars and cents? We understand what it means in terms of representation. A lot of people, a lot of states in which there are not illegal aliens, imagine that we can look at this as an advantage, I guess, politically to have illegal aliens. What is the impact in dollars and cents?
MILLER: Boy, it would be really hard to estimate what it is. Obviously, there are some guesstimates that illegal aliens cost our society $20 billion to $30 billion. When you think of the impact on our educational system, on our hospitals, health care systems, et cetera, I think it would be difficult to say what that is, what the dollar amount is.
But it is an easy thing for people to understand, that this is an issue very much, a basic issue I think of principle and of fairness. And as you mentioned in the outset here, Lou, really, our democracy, our entire system is based on a fundamental caveat of one man, one vote; yet you have all these illegal aliens who can't even vote or shouldn't be voting if they are, and yet they have the same representation as a citizen, and citizens are having their vote diluted. And it just is very, very unfair.
DOBBS: If nothing else should awaken people in this country to the crisis that we're facing in terms of illegal immigration, the fact we basically turned over the immigration policy of this country to President Vicente Fox, since this president and this Congress won't take the lead on immigration policy and enforcing immigration laws, this certainly should, because we're throwing away American representation, American political values. It's extraordinary.
MILLER: It's unbelievable. They really are having sway. Illegal aliens in this country are having sway on national policy. Votes that are happening each and every day in the United States Congress on policy, on budgetary kinds of things, on national security, on homeland security, on whether or not we should be enforcing our borders better than we are, all of these kinds of things illegal aliens are being represented on the floor of the United States Congress, and it has to stop. And again, it can stop by a very simple constitutional amendment. House Joint Resolution 53 for any of your listeners that want to lobby their own members of the Congress, particularly in these states that are losing seats because of this, certainly those members of Congress, and talk to the senators as well.
DOBBS: As a matter of fact, what we'll do, that's HR 53...
MILLER: Yes.
DOBBS: Congresswoman Candice Miller introducing the legislation. You've picked up sponsors. Is it your sense you're going to have the support necessary to move this through?
MILLER: I think it's going to be very difficult, Lou. I think it's an uphill battle, but I think it's a fight worth fighting, because a constitutional amendment, of course, is very difficult as it should be, but it does require two-thirds vote in both chambers, in both the House and the Senate, and then three-quarters of the states must ratify.
DOBBS: I don't think that the founding fathers, as prescient and wise as they were, could ever imagine that future generations of Americans would choose to ignore the nation's sovereignty and its borders. Certainly this looks like an issue in which it's time to make amends, and in this case amend the constitution.
Congresswoman, we thank you. It's House Resolution 53, HR 53. We're going to put it on our Web site. We're going to ask you to also, if you would like to support Congresswoman Miller's legislation, go to her Web site. We'll have it on ours beginning this evening. So we thank you very much for being here.
MILLER: Thank you so much.
DOBBS: Still ahead, he tried to run to Mexico, but couldn't hide, as it turned out. A wanted illegal alien now facing justice in the United States. Is this the beginning of cooperation between the Mexican government and U.S. authorities? We'll see. And we'll have the story for you.
Later, "Exporting America." My guest tonight says outsourcing is a lose/lose situation for American employees, businesses, and yes, even the U.S. government. The author of "Outsourcing America" will be here to tell us why. Stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Los Angeles officials tonight are claiming victory, now that fugitive alien Ricardo Rodriguez is back in U.S. custody. Rodriguez is wanted for trying to kill two sheriff's deputies. He thought he could escape U.S. law by running to Mexico. This time, he was wrong. Casey Wian reports from Los Angeles.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Ricardo Rodriguez, a Mexican illegal alien, is accused of fleeing two sheriff's deputies trying to pull him over for running a red light. After a brief chase, deputies say he opened fire on them with an assault rifle, just 100 yards from a playground filled with children.
No one was injured, but Rodriguez, like so many other criminals facing either life in prison or the death penalty, escaped and fled to Mexico. A year later, he's back in U.S. custody, in a rare case of cooperation by the Mexican government.
STEVE COOLEY, LA COUNTY DA: We are hopeful that this one particular case today is a good beginning, a first beginning, to help resolve some of the issues that remain between authorities on this side of the border and our Mexican counterparts.
WIAN: Rodriguez is the first suspect facing life in prison extradited by Mexico to Los Angeles in four years. Because of a Mexican Supreme Court ruling in 2001, Mexico refuses to extradite suspects who face either life in prison without parole or the death penalty. A members of the Mexican attorney general staff says Rodriguez was returned because he will be eligible for a parole hearing within 60 years. He says it does not represent a change in Mexican policy.
In recent years, Mexico has nearly tripled the number of criminals extradited to the United States. Still, hundreds of murderers, rapists and other violent criminals are either in Mexican jails or running free there.
SHERIFF LEE BACA, LA COUNTY: When you put this in the context of the hundreds of cases that the district attorney's office has to handle regarding illegal immigrants fleeing back to their home countries, this is a small step in the right direction, but, indeed, it is in no way reflective of the magnitude of the problem that we here.
WIAN: Los Angeles DA Cooley wouldn't say if this case would hasten the capture and extradition of Armando Garcia, the alleged killer of LA Sheriff's Deputy David March. He did say, wait until that day arrives, and you'll see how much justice will receive.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: In the meantime, two Republican lawmakers are planning to introduce legislation that would deny foreign aid to Mexico or any other country that refuses to extradite cop killers without strings attached, Lou.
DOBBS: An important step also. This may be an important beginning between the government of Mexico and the United States, and certainly District Attorney Cooley and Sheriff Baca deserve great credit for their unrelenting efforts to bring about justice here.
WIAN: Absolutely, and those efforts are continuing. Both law enforcement officials say they are aggressively pursuing cop killers and other suspected murderers in Mexico and that they are beginning to get more cooperation from Mexican authorities, Lou.
DOBBS: Casey Wian, reporting from Los Angeles. Thank you, Casey.
The government of Mexico this afternoon gave us this statement regarding the Rodriguez extradition. The Mexican government telling us, quote, "With the extradition of Ricardo Rodriguez by Mexico to the United States, the government of Mexico illustrates once more its compliance with the obligations set forth in the bilateral treaty of extradition."
Coming up next, how outsourcing can hurt the U.S. government as well as American workers. The author of "Outsourcing America" is our guest here, next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: My guest tonight says there's no silver bullet to end the export of American jobs to cheap foreign labor markets. In this new book "Outsourcing America," he offers a wide range of practical, intelligent ways, however, to stem the flow of those jobs.
Ron Hira is the coauthor of "Outsourcing America," and is our guest here tonight. Ron, good to have you. It is a terrific book. I have to confess to everyone that I did write the forward to your book.
RON HIRA, CO-AUTHOR "OUTSOURCING AMERICA": Much appreciate it.
DOBBS: Well, I'm very honored to have been asked to do so. It's terrific.
The idea that outsourcing is not good for the U.S. government, why not?
HIRA: Well, it's good for companies. That's pretty clear. It's bad for U.S. workers. I think that's pretty clear. Is it good in the net for the U.S.? That's really unclear and uncertain and it's going to depend on what we do in response to this outsourcing.
DOBBS: What do you think we should do?
HIRA: Well, I think we need to take a number of practical steps. There's no single silver bullet, but the first step is to acknowledge a problem exists.
DOBBS: Why won't businesses, cooperate leaders, acknowledge this practice and the depth of it and the breadth of it?
HIRA: Well, this is a major hole and a major void and a place where basically government has dropped the ball. We've been reliant on management consulting, reports on how much outsourcing is going on, and companies, understandably, don't want to take a public relations hit. It's in their self-interest to keep a veil of secrecy over this, and all to...
DOBBS: And they have the complicity of the Commerce Department, the Labor Department. I mean, let's be honest. This is an outright conspiracy of silence over the practice.
HIRA: Well, there's only been one single report that's been done and it's only been funded at $335,000. That study has been complete for more than a year but has not been released publicly.
DOBBS: You're a professor. You are a man who lives in a world of freedom of expression. What has been the reaction to your book on the part of your fellow academics?
HIRA: Well, I've gotten some good endorsements from some academics and gotten some play, but by and large, if you say anything about, you know, concern with outsourcing, somehow you become ostracized within the profession, to a degree, and I think that's unfortunate, because with academic freedom, you would expect we'd have a better dialogue.
DOBBS: You would expect. One gets tired, but one does not cease to expect orthodoxy in politics, orthodoxy in business, but when our academia is high-bound with orthodoxy, it's frightening, indeed.
Ron Hira, it is a great book. The book is "Outsourcing America" and we appreciate you being here. We'll talk more.
HIRA: Thanks so much.
DOBBS: Thank you.
Still ahead, the results of our poll. A look at what's ahead tomorrow. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Now, the results of our poll tonight: 94 percent of you say American companies should not compromise American values in order to win business in foreign countries, 6 percent of you say they should.
Thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us here tomorrow. Why one author says our economy is like the Titanic heading toward that iceberg. The author of "Three Billion New Capitalists" is our guest here.
And "Heroes," our special weekly feature on our men and women in uniform, how one brave Marine risked his life and saved his platoon. We'll have his inspiring story. Be with us. For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" starts right now. Anderson?
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