Return to Transcripts main page
Search for 11-Year-Old Boy Scout Continues in Utah Mountains; Files Seized in Convicted Child Molester`s Bedroom Detail 36,000 Instances of Abuse
Aired June 20, 2005 - 20:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: The parents of an 11-year-old Utah Boy Scout are begging for help tonight. Fifth-grader Brennan Hawkins went missing during a Boy Scout event in the Utah mountains. He has not been seen since.
And a convicted child molester pops up in California unregistered and had once even coached a youth football team. Discovered in his bedroom, hand-written files he kept detailing over 36,000 -- you heard right, 36,000 -- incidents of child molestation.
And tonight, the Aruban judge whose son was last seen with missing 18- year-old Natalee Holloway literally runs from questions. Why?
Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace coming to you from L.A. And I want to thank you for being with us tonight.
Tonight, the search is desperate for 18-year-old Alabama beauty Natalee Holloway. Natalee vanished into thin air on her high school senior trip to Aruba. One of four suspects, a party boat disc jockey, appears in court today.
And police question a judge, the father of that young Dutchman also behind bars in connection with Natalee`s disappearance. Natalee`s stepfather fired back at the Dutch judge. In this video, Paul Van Der Sloot is literally running from cameras.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE "JUG" TWITTY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S STEPFATHER: I met him the night I got here. He`s sickening to me. He`s a chicken. If he has nothing to hide, why is he running to his car? He makes my stomach turn. You know, they say, "Like father, like son." Well, in this case, I truly believe that`s the case.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Why is he running from questions? Well, his son maintains his innocence and his father refuses to comment.
And a convicted child molester keeps huge binders documenting up to 36,000 child victims.
But first, an 11-year-old Boy Scout vanishes Friday from the Utah mountains. Brennan`s parents plead for help tonight. A desperate volunteer search on foot, horseback, all-terrain vehicles, even infrared helicopters. No good.
Tonight, in Park City, Utah, Brennan Hawkins` mother, Jody Hawkins is with us. Also in Park City, Summit County Sheriff Dave Edmunds; in L.A., defense attorney Debra Opri; in San Francisco, defense attorney Daniel Horowitz; and in New York, psychologist Dr. Robi Ludwig.
But first to CNN correspondent on the scene Ted Rowlands. Ted, bring us up-to-date, friend.
TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Nancy, as the daylight goes away, fades away, here in Utah, the search efforts are wrapping up for the day. And still no sign of Brennan Hawkins. He has been missing since about 5:30 local time on Friday.
He was seen at a Cub Scout camp area at a climbing wall, according to a person there. He said that -- a counselor there or somebody basically in charge of this wall said he saw Brennan taking off some climbing gear and that was the last anybody saw of him.
Clearly, there was a lot of help out here. It is amazing how many people have stepped up, in terms of volunteers. Here, again today, more than 500 people showed on a Monday to continue to look for this young man. There were 50 professional searches out there.
As you mentioned, they are searching the water. They are searching the air. And they are searching ground, by horseback and on foot. But unfortunately, there is no sign of Brennan tonight.
Garrett Bardsley was missing 15 miles away from here last August. He was missing at a much higher altitude area where the conditions were much more harsh. Still, obviously, it is unique that two young Scouts would go missing so close together within one year`s time.
There is a criminal investigation going on, a parallel investigation going on right now. The FBI is involved. Also, the family and searchers are getting help from the Adam Walsh Foundation and from the Center of Exploited and Missing Children, as well. Clearly, everybody is doing everything possible to look for this young man.
GRACE: Ted Rowlands, that`s incredibly coincidental that last August a 12-year-old Scout, Garrett Bardsley, went missing a few miles from there. That search only lasted nine days, Ted, before they gave up. And now this little boy has gone missing, as well. Tell me about the terrain, Ted Rowlands.
ROWLANDS: Well, it is mountainous terrain. But those familiar with the area say that it isn`t overwhelming in terms of the terrain. And that reason gives people pause.
They basically say that they have searched a six-mile-plus radius to a degree where they`re fairly satisfied with. Of course, they`ll continue to search that area and expand it out. If this young boy was on foot and started walking, let`s say away from the direction where he should have been, he could have only gotten so far. So they`re making the loop, they`re continuing to expand the loop.
But the terrain isn`t as harsh as one might think because there was a fire here recently which cleared out a lot of brush, and, clearly, people are hoping, and wishing, and a lot of people thought that he they would have found this young man by now.
Clearly, one of three things happened. Either Brennan is still walking, and is lost, and has stopped somewhere, and is lost. That`s what everybody is hoping. He may have been caught in the Bear River. The eastern fork of the Bear River was only about 50 yards away and the current is swift. They have searched that area, have not found anything. Or the other thing, the one that nobody wants to come true, and that is that he may have somehow been kidnapped.
GRACE: What concerns me right now is the swift water that is so close by. Take a listen to Brennan`s father.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Knowing his behavior, he probably got disoriented, frustrated, scared. He`s a bashful boy, and Brennan isn`t the kind of boy that would go up and confess that he`s lost and grab somebody by the shirt sleeve and say, "Hey, I`m lost."
JODY HAWKINS, MOTHER OF MISSING BOY: ... (UNINTELLIGIBLE) know how you`re feeling. She`s the only person who knows how I feel. But describes the days are incredibly long and then the night comes way too fast. The days stretch out to eternity, and all of a sudden night falls. You learn to hate the moon when the moon comes up. You just don`t want to see it come up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: This 11-year-old Scout missing from a Scout trip.
To Ted Rowlands, CNN correspondent there on the scene. Ted, will the wind and the temperature affect this infrared helicopter?
ROWLANDS: Yes, they`ve been searching at night in a helicopter that`s equipped with infrared technology that could pick up a warm body. The problem is the winds. It`s about 8,000 feet elevation, and they can only fly when the winds are down.
They have been able to get the helicopter up each morning, about 3:00 to 4:00 in the morning. They`re going to attempt do it again here tonight. A sheriff`s deputy told us that they are not going to suspend this search anytime soon. They are clearly hoping that this young man is just huddled in an area and is surviving.
The temperatures have been relatively low, low 50s and very windy. Uncomfortable, but clearly he could survive easily and it could be much worse. They`re hopeful that this young man is just holding on and they`ll be able to find him. As you can hear from those sound bytes, a very heart- breaking story.
GRACE: Ted Rowlands, I just don`t understand how exactly it happened. The boy was at a climbing wall. And one of the employees worked at the wall, I understand, turned around, saw him, and then suddenly he was gone. Now, how the heck does that happen? What was this, a Boy Scout event or what?
ROWLANDS: Well, apparently he was with another family and they were at a scouting event. This is a Boy Scout camp that was being used by some younger children in some sort of a scouting event. I believe that they were cub scouts or younger scouts that were using the Boy Scout facilities.
And according to reports, this counselor, this person that was sort of monitoring this climbing wall, the child was unbuckling his gear, and the next thing you know, the guy looked up and he noticed he was gone, didn`t think anything because he was staying at a campsite about 200 yards away, just figured he was heading back to the campsite. The boy was reported missing later that night, and that`s when his parents came up, and that`s when the search started in earnest.
GRACE: Right now, we are joined by a very special guest. Brennan`s mother is with us tonight, Jody Hawkins.
Ms. Hawkins, thank you for being with us.
JODY HAWKINS, MOTHER OF MISSING BOY: Thank you. Thank you for doing this.
GRACE: Ms. Hawkins, tell us about the search. What is being done to find your little boy?
J. HAWKINS: Everything has been done. The amount of people that have been here has been absolutely overwhelming. We`ve had between 2,500 and 3,000 yesterday. I don`t know how many today. The whole parking lot is full.
It`s kind of a tri-level search. We`re searching the area here. The sheriff`s taking care of the criminal aspect. The search and rescue, the streams are being dived. Every aspect that could possibly be is being covered.
GRACE: Mrs. Hawkins, when did you last see Brennan?
J. HAWKINS: At home before he left on this trip.
GRACE: I know he must have been very excited. My brother was in the Scouts, too.
J. HAWKINS: That`s true. I heard one of your guys say this was a younger scout camp. Actually, it was an older scout camp. They were 14- to 17-year-olds. He was up here with a friend. He was younger.
GRACE: So was this a planned Scouting event? What, were they supposed to be hiking or what?
J. HAWKINS: No. This is a huge -- it`s called the Big Event. It`s once a year. They bring in 1,400 14- to 17-year-olds from around the state, very well orchestrated. Brennan was not a part of that. He was up here as a friend of one of the staffers. They were just on their own having fun while his parents were in charge of a lot of the training exercises going on here.
GRACE: What have you been doing, Mrs. Hawkins, for the past few days trying to find Brennan?
J. HAWKINS: Thank you. Is this too low? What have I personally been doing?
GRACE: Yes, ma`am.
J. HAWKINS: I`ve been working a lot with the sheriff`s -- I`m sorry. I`ve been working a lot with the sheriff`s department, a lot of technical things. I`ve been greeting the searchers as much as possible and thanking them for their efforts. I`ve spent a lot of time in the mountains with our family, everything I can possibly think of.
GRACE: Ms. Hawkins, what can we do to help you?
J. HAWKINS: I`m sorry. I didn`t hear you.
GRACE: What can we do to help you? Do you need more volunteers? What can we do?
J. HAWKINS: We need volunteers every day. I know it`s hard. It`s a work week. People have different work schedules. We could use all the volunteers we could get continuously through this week.
GRACE: We`re showing a shot right now, Brennan Hawkins, just 11- years-old, 5 feet, 65 pounds. Take a look at this little face.
They need volunteers. Fewer volunteers showed up today than yesterday. They need your help. Brennan at a Boy Scout camp in the Utah mountains. His mother is with us tonight. Please, stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My greatest plea at this time and the way that we can find my boy is for anybody and everybody to come out and help.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hundreds of volunteers have checked in to help search for Brennan.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People that I haven`t seen for 20 years that were a part of my life years ago.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, I haven`t met the family. I don`t know them. I don`t even know where they are up here. I`m one extra person out there who came.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s probably sleep-deprived. He`s probably dehydrated, definitely hungry.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As volunteers in search-and-rescue crews picked through the wilderness for the 11-year-old, Brennan`s parents say thanks.
J. HAWKINS: We appreciate the support so much.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hoping today brings a sign of their son before another dreaded night falls.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. We are live in the Utah mountains. Standing by, CNN correspondent Ted Rowlands. Also with us, Brennan`s mother, Jodie Hawkins.
Welcome back, Ms. Hawkins. What can you tell us about your boy, Brennan?
J. HAWKINS: Brennan is an energetic, fun-loving, loves life, gets in your heart and stays there. He makes friends. His second-grade teacher has been up here. His fourth-grade teacher has been up here. He makes an impact on people`s life, and they don`t forget him. And that`s part of the reason this search is so huge.
GRACE: Ms. Hawkins, does Brennan have much experience in the outdoors?
J. HAWKINS: Brennan has spent time in the outdoors since basically he was a baby. My husband`s a huge outdoor advocate. We`ve spent many family camping trips here. He goes out scouting for animals with my husband and his buddies and their boys. He`s spent many, many hours in the outdoors.
GRACE: Could he fend for himself in the woods, Ms. Hawkins?
J. HAWKINS: He never has, not for any length of time at all.
GRACE: Back to Ted Rowlands, CNN correspondent, standing by. Tell me what tools they are using in the search for this little boy?
ROWLANDS: Well, they`re using the air. The helicopters are working during the day and at night when the winds allow for the air search to continue. They also have crews on horseback. They have crews on ATVs and they have crews on foot.
Fifty professional crew searchers were out there today. That`s a huge amount of people to be out there. More were out over the weekend. And then you add this army of volunteers and really it is something to see that all of these folks have come together searching for this young man. And hopefully, their efforts will come up with something and come up with something soon.
GRACE: Jody, do we know if Brennan had any food or water with him?
J. HAWKINS: No, I know for sure he did not.
GRACE: What were they planning to do that evening? Why would he have wandered off?
J. HAWKINS: He didn`t wander off. He was at a climbing wall, climbing with a buddy. He came down off the wall, and they were heading off for dinner. Brennan has a terrible sense of direction. His friend went one direction, as he turned around to take off his harness, he went in a different direction.
GRACE: Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEVIN BARDSLEY, SON WENT MISSING LAST YEAR IN UTAH MOUNTAINS: We came off the mountain in the winter, my friends and I. We decided right then that if anybody came missing, we would be there immediately. And within when I got the call at 6:30 in the morning, we were on the road within a half hour. We were gone. We were moving. And all of my friends were in place and moving the same way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: To Ted Rowlands, do the authorities think there is any possibility that Brennan was kidnapped?
ROWLANDS: Well, they`re not saying that there`s any evidence of it now. But clearly, it`s something that you have to look into, especially given the fact that he has been missing for three days and that the area has been searched the way it has been searched.
And for that reason, a criminal investigation has been launched. And that would be launched in any case where there is a missing child. The FBI has also been brought in here to help out with resources and expertise. So it is a track that they don`t want to talk about a lot and that they don`t have any concrete evidence of it. But clearly, it is something that they`re looking into and trying to cover their bases on, just in case something like that did happen.
GRACE: Before we go live to Aruba and the Natalee Holloway case, very quickly, Ted Rowlands, how many kids and how many adults?
GRACE: No, on the trip?
ROWLANDS: On the trip, I`m not sure. Brennan was with another family. And as you heard his mom say, that the other family was involved in organizing the scouting event. So I`m not sure how many other children were involved or how many other parents were involved that would have access, if you will, to Brennan and know him well enough to fall under some sort of an investigation.
But clearly, they`re looking into it. And if that`s where you were going with it, clearly everybody involved is being looked at and questioned as an aside to this search.
GRACE: Ted, last question. Is the FBI involved yet?
ROWLANDS: Yes, they are involved. They were involved fairly early on. This is a rural area. And the FBI was brought in fairly early on. Also, the Adam Walsh Foundation, is -- has expertise in finding missing kids, and the National Center for Exploited and Missing Children also involved.
So they really do have all of the bases covered here. And now it is just a matter of trying to put together the puzzle and finding out what has happened to this young man.
GRACE: Brennan`s parents asking for your help tonight.
Ted Rowlands, thank you, friend.
Our satellite is now up in Aruba. We`ll be taking you there in one minute.
But very quickly, to "Trial Tracking." Today, jury deliberations began in the Edgar Ray Killen case. Killen charged with the 1964 murders of three civil rights workers, gunned down by Klansmen while investigating the burning of a black church in Mississippi. Today, the jury deliberated for more than two hours before telling the judge they`re split down the middle, 6-6. They come back to jury service Tuesday, the 41st anniversary of the murders.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE "JUG" TWITTY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S STEPFATHER: I feel that the United States is really starting to put some pressure on the people here to try to get an answer, because the answer -- I can`t say the total answer is with all of the guys there. There may be more people involved. But they definitely know more than they`re saying.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. The Dutch judge we have been telling you about, his son behind bars in connection with the disappearance of Natalee Holloway, literally ran from questions today, was caught on tape.
Tonight, in Aruba, government spokesperson Ruben Trapenberg. But first to CNN correspondent Karl Penhaul.
Karl, why was the judge running from the camera?
Elizabeth, do you have video of that please?
KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Nancy, he had come out of police questioning and the downtown police station in Oranjestad, the capital of Aruba. And he saw the media cameras waiting there. And in fact, our own camera man, Jerry Simonson (ph), chased done Paul Van Der Sloot to ask him what he had to answer in police questioning.
Mr. Van Der Sloot was obviously not up for those questions and simply bolted. He did have a little difficulty, as we`ve seen, getting the key in the lock of his car which is where our Jerry managed to get some more pictures of him, but still at that stage, he wasn`t ready to answer any questions -- Nancy?
GRACE: Well, on the other hand, Karl, the natural impulse when someone starts chasing you down the street is to run. So I don`t know that I can actually blame him for that. But, Karl, when questions were put to him, he refused to answer them?
PENHAUL: So far he`s refused to answer to the media what he was being questioned for by the police. We do understand that he has been cooperating with police, though, simply because he`s been questioned on two consecutive days now and has spent several hours at a time there.
But both in personal questions by the media to him and also by phone calls that I have made to him, he`s declined to answer anything about why he is being questioned by police, Nancy.
GRACE: Karl, any idea why this Dutch judge has been questioned two straight days by police in connection with Natalee Holloway`s disappearance?
PENHAUL: What police have told us is that they view him at this point as a witness, not as a suspect. But they haven`t said anything more about what they believe he may have seen or that he may have heard on or after the day that Natalee Holloway disappeared -- Nancy?
GRACE: And, of course, everything he says may or may not implicate his own son. Everyone, remember, this guy`s son, this judge`s son, is still being held in connection with Natalee`s disappearance along with several others.
Now, one of them was in court today, right, Karl?
PENHAUL: Correct. The latest man to be arrested, 26-year-old Steve Croes, he was arrested on Friday. And he made his first court appearance today.
In the pictures that we have seen of him, he either was using his cuffed hands to cover his face or his t-shirt to cover his face. But what we know about him is, yes, he was arrested on Friday, that he`s a deejay on a local party boat that sails off Aruba`s west coast -- Nancy?
GRACE: Quick break, everybody. We will be right back in Aruba, live with CNN correspondent Karl Penhaul and others.
As you know, we at NANCY GRACE want desperately to help solve unsolved homicides, help find missing people. Tonight, take a look at Craig Frear. Just 17-years-old, he disappeared from Scotia, New York, June 26, 2004. If you have any information on this young man, Craig Frear -- take a look -- please contact the Scotia Village Police Department 518-384-2244 or go online to beyondmissing.com. Please help us.
PENHAUL (voice-over): We head out on the search-and-rescue boat to notorious Manchebo Point, where two powerful ocean currents collide. Here, with more than a mile-and-a-half off Aruba`s west coast, the water`s more than 60 feet deep. We`re going to test those currents.
(on camera): Three, two, one.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Man overboard!
PENHAUL (voice-over): Here you can feel a menacing undertow and a strong swell. Boekhuodt tells me if they leave me in the water long enough, I`ll drift northwest a few miles, then due west out into open ocean.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us. We are live in Aruba and the latest in the disappearance of an 18-year-old Alabama beauty, Natalee Holloway, still missing tonight.
Straight down to Karl Penhaul, CNN correspondent. Karl, was that you jumping off the back of the boat?
PENHAUL: That`s right, Nancy. We went out to Manchebo Point. That`s where, as we were saying, the two ocean currents mix. And from there on, the ocean current heads out directly west towards Panama, which is more than 690 miles away. But the boat would have to be a certain distance out there in order for any object that is dumped to float with that current. If it`s closer to the shore, the surf will bring it back to the beach.
GRACE: Well, Karl, this is what I was asking you about the other night. I have dived myself there in the Netherland Antilles, and we did what you call drift diving, where it carries you along, the water does, because there`s a very heavy current. But you`re telling me on one side of the island, which I think I`m seeing right now, there is virtually no current. On the other side of the island, if Natalee Holloway had been thrown into that water, she would be long gone with those currents, correct?
PENHAUL: That`s correct. The situation on the north side of the island -- that where you saw me jumping into the water`s on the west side of the island. On the north side of the island, the current is also drifting west. But that would drive anything that is dumped into the sea there back on to shore automatically.
GRACE: To Ruben Trapenberg. He is a spokesperson for the Aruba government. Welcome. Thank you for being with us. Why have there been no dive teams in the water?
RUBEN TRAPENBERG, SPOKESPERSON FOR ARUBA GOVERNMENT: Well, I have had -- not had the specifics of the diving that has been ongoing. Today, I did see pictures in the newspaper of FBI dive person or persons that were diving. So they do not give us the details, the specifics of where they`re diving. If you were to dive, you would need a specific reason to go dive at certain points.
GRACE: Now, Karl Penhaul, you told me as late as Friday there had been no diving.
PENHAUL: That`s what we have heard from our sources, that although an FBI dive team, a small team was, initially here, they left, went back to Miami...
PENHAUL: ... because the government and because investigators didn`t pinpoint a search area for them, Nancy.
GRACE: Thanks, Karl. Back to Ruben. What is the status of the investigation tonight? How many people in custody? And do we know any of the evidence against them?
TRAPENBERG: Tonight, we have four people as suspects still in custody. The evidence we don`t get to hear, Nancy. The Dutch law system just does not permit it, and they`re not going to change it just to please the press. What we can say is that the case is being handled very carefully. They know if they should be making mistakes at this point, it would cost them at the court case level and in the investigation itself.
GRACE: I can understand that.
To Debra Opri, defense attorney. Debra what do you make of the father of Van Der Sloot, the young man behind bars, one of the four -- this is the Dutch judge -- what do you make of him undergoing two days of questioning by police?
DEBRA OPRI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: He obviously was implicated in either being an alibi or knowing what his son did. His son may have made comments to him. We are all presupposing, however. You know, let`s look at it the way it is, Nancy. The bottom line is we have a missing girl, and she`s either a body that we`re never going to find or she`s a live body that`s somewhere off in a prostitution ring.
People are saying to me, Why do you keep saying that? Because we ain`t got a body. And all these people in custody, they`re either telling a lot of tales leading us to think the girl`s body was dumped in the ocean and we may never find her. You`ve done diving out there. But the bottom line, if we don`t get a body, we`re going to have a lot of confessions that may, at some point in time, be called coerced.
GRACE: Well put. Well put. Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, MISSING GIRL`S MOTHER: We`ve exhausted a lot of areas just through family searches and just through the searches by the authorities. So you know, we really don`t have any areas right now to concentrate on. No. We need some answers from those individuals that they have in custody.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Elizabeth, if you could put up that full screen you made for us about all the issues regarding the investigation. Police initially arrested two security guards, not the young men actually seen with Natalee. Police waited 10 days to seize Van Der Sloot`s car to take a look at possible evidence in it. Still, as of today, no divers searching the Aruban waters. Police did not search Croes`s car or the party boat. Also, police failed to question Croes`s boss. This is the deejay that`s been taken into custody. Police haven`t confiscated or searched hard drives of computers at the Internet cafe where Van Der Sloot goes all the time, where Deepak Kalpoe works. That`s the connection between those two co- defendants.
Very quickly, to Robi Ludwig, also, remember, Robi, that we heard that there was blood found on a mattress. It turned out to be bogus. It was a dog`s blood.
ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Yes. Yes.
GRACE: Then we heard there was blood in the car. Not true. The parents were confronted about that on live TV. They had heard nothing about it. Well, it wasn`t true.
GRACE: Then we heard that there were confessions, and those confessions were retracted. My point is, what impact are all of these false reports having on this poor family?
LUDWIG: Well, you know, each time a family hears a report, they get very hopeful that somehow, there`ll be some type of answer. It is so hard for families to have no answers, no body, nothing to be known. And I`m sure that they have their theories and that they`re frustrated that there should be some line of investigation that`s not going on because it`s very hard to make sense out of how could there be no body when you have four boys in custody? And I think the question I have, too, is if these boys know what happened, why aren`t they telling on one another? So it just raises more questions. It seems like there`s more questions now than when we first started to hear about the case.
GRACE: You`re right. Robi, you`re right. And what concerns me is, amongst the three young men that left the bar with Natalee, they started telling different stories. Now, if their stories had been consistent, that would have been more on the up and up. But when their stories start diverging, you got a problem.
Daniel Horowitz, question to you. What do you make of the father, the judge, Van Der Sloot, being questioned for two straight days? And two, is there any way American authorities could step in on the investigation?
DANIEL HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, I think the father knows something. Any lawyer -- and he is a lawyer -- is going to tell a client -- and his son is essentially his client -- Shut up, don`t say a word. You know, Nancy, I`ve appeared in the Dutch court system, and even though they`re holding this kid and these kids for a very lengthy time period, they`re probably being very gentle to them in custody and in their questioning. That`s how they proceed with things.
I think and I wish the FBI could come in and really break them down, do some hard questioning, publicize their lives or their stories, so that people, witnesses, can come forward and say, That`s not true. But it`s not going to happen. They have their own system. And it`s really thwarting the efforts to find what happened to Natalee Holloway.
GRACE: Karl Penhaul, how old are the three younger suspects?
PENHAUL: The three younger suspects? Joran Van Der Sloot is 17 years old. Satish Kalpoe is 18 years old. And his brother, Deepak Kalpoe, is 21 years old. And the fourth suspect, Steven Croes, is 26 years old, Nancy.
GRACE: And very quickly, back to Ruben Trapenberg. He`s a spokesperson for the Aruban government. Right now, do you expect to formally charge any of these four suspects?
TRAPENBERG: Nancy, any time you extend the period that these suspects will remain in custody, you have to provide more evidence. You have to convince a judge of the reason why you`re going extend their stay -- their detention. So it becomes every time bigger. What is exactly happening, we don`t have all the facts. It`s easy for experts to go on and giving their own theories. The facts, we do not know them. We do know that there is good progress being made, and that has been told to us by the prosecution.
GRACE: Ruben, very quickly. Is it true that Van Der Sloot`s mother has been allowed to visit him and not the father, not the judge?
TRAPENBERG: That is what I have heard, yes. And because he`s a minor, the parents normally have the right to see him. But in this case, it may be a strange situation. That`s why the prosecutor has asked for him not to visit him. But I`m sure they`re questioning the father because there may be relevant information there. Did the son ask questions, legal questions? Those type of things will need to be known, and that`s why he`s a witness in this case at this point.
GRACE: And of course, Karl Penhaul, there is no father/son privilege. What they say to each other is not confidential communications. Karl Penhaul, last question. Have they taken Croes`s car and searched it yet, or is it still parked in his driveway?
PENHAUL: It`s not still parked in his driveway, Nancy. His ex-wife has borrowed it. His ex-wife asked for permission to the grandfather with whom Steve Croes lived...
GRACE: Oh, good Lord!
PENHAUL: ... and the car is now at her house, Nancy.
GRACE: OK. I`m sure it`s undergoing a thorough search over at the grandparents` house. OK. Thank you, Karl. Thank you, Ruben.
Quickly, to tonight`s "All Points Bulletin." FBI and law enforcement across the country on the lookout for Guillermo Castaneda, wanted in connection with the stabbing death of his girlfriend in Acworth, Georgia, January. Castaneda, 35, 145 pounds, black hair, brown eyes. If you have any information on Castaneda, call the FBI, 404-679-9000.
GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. A convicted sex offender remained unregistered, had access to children, and was found with 36,000 documented instances of child molestation he had carefully kept by hand, using code words to describe in his records exactly how he molested each child. How could it happen?
Tonight, in Mountain View, California, KGO radio reporter Lee Schell. Thank you for being with us. Bring us up to date, Lee.
LEE SCHELL, KGO RADIO REPORTER: Well, Mr. Schwartzmiller will be in court on Wednesday for entry of plea. We`re not sure whether he will actually enter a plea at that time. We`re not really sure if he`ll continue using the public defender or will start acting as his own attorney, which he has done in the past, Nancy.
GRACE: Oh, I only pray that he does! Lee, we are showing the viewers, or were showing the viewers, there would be a name and then -- could you show that again, Elizabeth, if you can, dear? Then like -- for instance, an A, B, F type of initial circled beside each one. There`s a V. It`s my understanding that signifies the way he molested each child -- 36,000 entries, Lee!
SCHELL: It`s incredible, Nancy. And the forensic people are just now starting to look at his computers and one incredible six-foot-tall server they found in his south San Jose home, which may contain tens if not hundreds of thousands of images of what they suspect may be evidence of molestations of boys that have gone on since 1970, for a period of 35 years.
GRACE: Daniel Horowitz was in court today at the arraignment of this guy, Schwartzmiller`s roommate. Daniel Horowitz, I`m stunned. Have you seen this rap sheet? He got convicted, got eight years, he was out in two years, went on to molest a 13-year-old boy. I mean, it`s long. It`s a long record. He was a fugitive, went to Brazil, molested kids there. He`s molested kids that we know of in five states and two other countries. What the hey`s going on?
HOROWITZ: Well, Nancy, sitting in that courtroom, I couldn`t help but realize that both Everett (ph), who was arraigned today, and Schwartzmiller basically did whatever they wanted. You know, I got access to some of the information in this case, and all the neighbors saw these young men at the house that these two sex offenders shared, and these kids would play. And it was almost, Nancy, like a poor man`s Neverland. They had video games. They had Foosball tables. They took the kids for trips to the boardwalk at Santa Cruz, which is sort of like Coney Island in New York. And nobody ever spoke up and called the police and said, What is going on here?
GRACE: And Debra Opri, the kicker is this. He also was not registered. And if you look at his record, Debra, he would get a pretty severe sentence and then he would get straight out in, like, less than two years. And of all of these states, Debra -- Idaho, California, just multiple states, multiple countries -- he was never apprehended and made to register.
OPRI: All right. I`m a criminal defense attorney telling you, America, wake up. You`ve got Mothers Against Drunk Driving getting DUI people first, second third, fourth. You lose your car, you go jail. No plea agreement. That`s what you`re getting. I`m telling you people out there, get your legislators to start saying to these judges and these prosecutors, No more deals. These guys go to jail once. They go jail twice. They go jail three times. Cut it off. Cut it off! It`s getting disgusting what these children have to endure because our laws and our courts are not enforcing the laws.
GRACE: Debra, I agree with you 200 percent. Back to Lee Schell. Lee, Idaho, Alaska, Oregon, Washington, Arkansas, New York, California, Mexico, Brazil -- I mean, what does a guy have to do, take out an ad on 3rd Avenue, I`m a child molester, catch me if you can!
SCHELL: Nancy, this guy is extremely intelligent, very wily. He has used aliases. He has stayed under the radar by not using credit cards, paying cash for everything, getting green money for jobs that he does. He is a textbook child molester, in that he ingratiates himself with the parents before he attacks their children. This guy -- this guy is just extremely smart. I`ve heard tell that up in Idaho, where he spent quite a bit of time in prison up there, he wrote better briefs than the attorneys representing him did. So this guy is not your ordinary child molester. He is extremely smart.
GRACE: Well, I knew that when I saw the number 36,000 victims. Quick break, everybody.
After becoming the victim of a violent crime myself and prosecuting violent felonies, I have an objection about how Lady Justice is tricked and treated in our justice system. Part of the proceeds of "Objection" go to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.
Local news next for some of you, but we`ll all be right back. And remember, live coverage of the "Mississippi Burning" Civil Rights trial tomorrow, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern on Court TV`s "Closing Arguments."
Please stay with us as we remember Army Sergeant Larry R. Kuhns, Jr., just 24 years old, an American hero.
GRACE: Three weeks since Natalee Holloway went missing in Aruba. The search for Natalee and the investigation into her disappearance have so far turned up nothing. What is happening in Aruba? Natalee Holloway, where are you? Aruba police and the FBI working around the clock, continue to scour beaches and scrubland for 18-year-old Natalee Holloway. This beautiful Alabama girl vanished from her senior trip. Her mother vows not to leave the island without the girl.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TWITTY: All I know is that my daughter is alive.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are discrepancies and cracks in the boys` stories.
GRACE: They`re starting to blame each other. Somebody is lying!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This investigation is so ridiculous down there! How they could let these three guys out of custody immediately after she was missing is beyond me. How much evidence did they lose? How much evidence was tainted during the period of time that they`ve been incarcerated now?
GRACE: We were all screaming that on day one. Why don`t you impound the car in which she was taken from the bar, Carlos and Charlie`s?
PENHAUL: The FBI team of divers that were sent here never, in fact, carried out any dive search.
GRACE: There have been so many conflicting reports. First of all, we heard reports that maybe Natalee was in a crack house. Not true. Then we heard that there was blood in the car of one of these young men. Not true. Then we heard there was a confession. They were retracted that. It came back. It was retracted again.
Why all the conflicting reports? Look, a lot of us are finding fault with the way this investigation is being conducted.
A fourth suspect behind bars.
PENHAUL: Named Steven Croes, the deejay on the Tattoo party boat.
GRACE: I`m stunned. History is repeating itself. Aruba police, listen! Search the guy`s car! Search the cruise ship!
Hair, fiber, blood, semen, anything! Talk to everybody this guy knows. Hello! Search it!
TWITTY: I have waited and I have waited and I have listed, and I`ve heard lie after lie after lie unfold. And I have to have some answers, and I better get them soon.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: I want to thank all of my guests tonight. But my biggest thank you, as always, is to you for being with us and inviting all of us into your home.
Coming up, headlines from all around the world, Larry on CNN. I`m Nancy Grace, signing off for tonight. I hope to see you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 o`clock sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.