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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Senate Committee Investigates Practices Of Lobbyist Jack Abramoff; Interview with Brennan Hawkins' Aunt Christy Meiners; Profile Of Danny Seo

Aired June 22, 2005 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again, everyone.
When Brennan Hawkins and his family went before the cameras today, a reporter asked him how he was doing. Good, he said. And that's all he said.

His parents say he needs time to make sense of what happened. The say he'll have all the time and all the love he needs. So tonight we'll gladly take Brennan's good for an answer, and leave the story of survival to others. beginning with CNN's Ted Rowlands.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): After surviving four days in the Utah wilderness, Brennan Hawkins did his best to stand in front of reporters and cameras in his front lawn. His parents say Brennan when he was missing kept thinking about what they had told him to do if he was ever lost in the woods.

JODY HAWKINS, MOTHER: He had two thoughts going through his head all the time. Toby has always told him, if you get lost, stay on the trail. So he stayed on the trail. We've also told him, don't talk to strangers.

ROWLANDS: Advice that helped the rescue -- he was found on a trail -- but prolonged the search. Brennan says he hid from rescuers because they were strangers.

J. HAWKINS: His biggest fear, he told him, was someone would steal him.

ROWLANDS: Brennan's father Toby says his son may have been a bit disoriented when he was found. Brennan said he thought he was only lost a day or two. And said he didn't drink any water. His father thinks that's unlikely given his good condition.

Brennan's parents say they think because of his sunburnt neck, Brennan spent much of his time in what they call his midget mode, stretching his sweatshirt over his knees, something he was willing to demonstrate in front the cameras. At the family's request, Brennan didn't speak to reporters, his brothers and sister talked about almost losing a member of the family.

CAMERON HAWKINS, BROTHER: We'll be better to him and to our family. MARIAH HAWKINS, SISTER: If anything, it made us realize what a difference it makes without him.

ROWLANDS: Brennan's mother says when she found out her son had been found, she thought he was dead.

J. HAWKINS: I collapsed before I could get into the truck. And they put me in the truck. And when they told me that Brennan was still alive and that he was in good shape, my brain still cannot comprehend that.

ROWLANDS: Brennan's father was the first family member to see him after the rescue.

TOBY HAWKINS, FATHER: I remember him saying, "hi, mom."

J. HAWKINS: He read Mariah's shirt that says "No Peeking Until Christmas" and he says, I have the best family in the world.

ROWLANDS: It's a family that is very grateful to be together again.

Ted Rowlands, CNN, Bountiful, Utah.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Eleven-year-old boys can be as tough as -- well, as boys can be. And as fragile. A father knows.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

T. HAWKINS: One of the biggest things that is difficult for Brennan to be able to deal with right now is obviously the excitement associated with the media. These numbers and having a lot of people in our home and all of this attention is overwhelming. And it would have been for him prior to this whole experience.

But he's trying to figure out how to deal with it and he's a fighter. We know that, because of the success he had out on the mountain. And we're working through that, to try to find quiet moments when we can nurse him back to -- back to good health and being able to deal with life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Mr. Hawkins also spoke a bit more about the question of whether his son was taught to fear strangers to too great an extent.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

T. HAWKINS: We really want parents and children to understand that stranger danger is very important. We think that it's important that you got a little password as a family, that you share among each other and only family knows that. And that's helped us. But the stranger danger, we need to make a transition when they're in a lost environment. (END VIDEO CLIP) BROWN: That was Brennan's dad earlier tonight on Anderson Cooper's 360.

With us from Bountiful, Utah, now is Brennan's aunt on his mom's side, Christy Meiners, nice to see you.

You've all been doing a job, I think, trying to explain or represent the family over these last days. You all must be tired.

Looking at Brennan this afternoon in the news conference, to be honest he looked extraordinarily uncomfortable, almost indifferent, in some sense unaware. Anybody have a sense about parading him out in front of the camera?

CHRISTY MEINERS, BRENNAN HAWKINS' AUNT: I went into his room where his mom, my sister Jody was with him. And he was lying on the bed. And she was just kneeling down, talking to him. And said, you certainly don't have to say anything, Brennan. These people really do want to see you, because they care about you. But I could tell Jody was feeling very uncomfortable with taking him out there at that time.

BROWN: Did he seem uncomfortable to you, when you look at it, I guess, now, after it all happened?

MEINERS: As far as being in front of the media, absolutely. Brennan's never liked big groups. He's shy in front of a lot of strangers, and especially strange adults. So in that regard, it sort of seems like Brennan.

BROWN: How aware is he of all that's going on?

MEINERS: I'm not exactly sure. He certainly doesn't comprehend the magnitude of the people who are interested in his story and what happened to him. When we tell him about being on television, or the people who have asked about him or whatnot, he just sort of smiles and says, cool. But you can tell that it's not really sinking in.

BROWN: He is described -- I've read a lot of descriptions of him today, his dad talked about him being born prematurely, that he's a very shy child, to begin with.

MEINERS: Yes.

BROWN: In some respects that makes his survival all the more remarkable, the challenge that has been his life?

MEINERS: It's true. Brennan's always been a little bit immature for his age. And that's common in prematurely born children, sometimes, I believe. But what's remarkable is how well he has survived this. And just the -- the power of his little spirit in getting him through this. I think we're all incredibly touched -- and I could even say surprised, in a sense.

BROWN: Well, I think for those of us who are several thousand miles distant, we're somewhat in awe that such a young boy, a little boy in many ways -- I mean, 11-year-olds don't think of themselves that way, but they are little boys to me -- managed to get through it all.

Do you know how he managed to do it? How his day-to-day went in those days?

MEINERS: He hasn't said much. And nobody's wanted to push too hard. I mean, certainly when they first got in the ambulance, they asked what he'd been doing.

Like you had said earlier, he really wasn't even aware of how many days he was gone. So, as for his day-to-day activity, we don't really know at this point. And he's not saying much about it.

We know that obviously, he walked some -- made it up and over has hill and to a nearby lake. But other than that, we don't know.

BROWN: Christy, ready for the cameras and everybody else to leave?

MEINERS: I think everyone's ready for some peace and quiet. I know I, for one, could use a night's sleep. And Jody and Toby haven't slept in far too long.

BROWN: I hope everyone gets one soon. You all need one and deserve one.

MEINERS: Thank you. We appreciate all of your help and everyone's concern. We're so incredibly touched and overwhelmed by everyone's kindness and even interest in what we consider our little insignificant family. So, thank you.

BROWN: Well, no child is insignificant. Thank you. Christy, thank you very much. The Meiners.

MEINERS: No problem. Thank you.

BROWN: Brennan's aunt.

There are moments we could only imagine and hope to experience one day. Yesterday the moment belonged to a young man named Forrest Nunley, and he talked about that moment earlier tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FORREST NUNLEY, FOUND BRENNAND HAWKINS: I just pulled off a road there. I had a good map. And I did some checking the night before. And I just went to a lake that's called Lily Lake, looked good to me on the map. About as far away as I thought the kid could go in three or four days. A little farther out than the search parties, I think, were going. And just worked my way out, in, and just happened to be in the right place at the right time.

KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Well, how did you know it was him? What did you see?

NUNLEY: When I first saw him, it was really hard to believe, you know. You don't know whether it's real or, you know, if it was him. I couldn't see him very well. He was about 30, 40 yards away. And as I got closer, I noticed his face was dirty. And I thought, wow, he's alone, he's not with a Scout group. I didn't know if he was just out camping with other Scouts.

PHILLIPS: Was he sitting, or standing?

NUNLEY: Standing up.

PHILLIPS: Just standing out there?

NUNLEY: Holding a wet T-shirt. He was all wet.

PHILLIPS: So you approached him.

NUNLEY: I approached him, and asked him his name.

He said, "I'm Brennan."

Wow, sit him down, get him warm. Put some clothes on him and stuff. Gave him some food and water, and tried to call 911.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Call 911 he did. The young boy is safe tonight. And hopefully he'll get peace and quiet. He looked today like he needed it.

Straight ahead on NEWSNIGHT, in the age of identity theft and all the fear it brings, when it's a good idea for others to share your personal information.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAREN KRANICHFELD, CANCER PATIENT: When I got to the hospital, I was not functioning well, you know, I really wasn't talking. I couldn't fill out forms.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: How giving lots of people access to your medical records may in fact be saving lives. But at what risk? At what cost?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ABRAHAM FOXMAN, NAT'L DIR. ANTI-DEFAMATION LEAGUE: They were being told if they don't accept the Lord Jesus Christ, they would burn and hell and their first mission is for God and Jesus and later for country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Is the Air Force Academy pushing Christianity on its cadets? Are chaplains and teachers and coaches crossing the line? A Pentagon investigation and why some say Christians are the real victims at the academy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DANNY SEO, ENVIRONMENTAL LIFESTYLE EXPERT: When I was 12, I had one dream, one wish, and that was to save the planet by the year 2000. Well, the year 2000 passed, so I'm giving myself another 10 or 15 years.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Move over, Martha Stewart. This man wants to change your lifestyle and he sees green in your future. From this corner of your planet in New York City, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: When the sharing of private information can help instead of harm, that story coming up in a moment or so.

But first, at quarter past the hour, or close enough for government work, some of the other stories of the day from Sophia Choi at CNN HEADLINE NEWS in Atlanta. Good to see you tonight.

SOPHIA CHOI, HEADLINE NEWS: Hi, Aaron.

A recent classified report by the CIA warns that Iraq may end up training more terrorists than Afghanistan did under the Taliban. The report says that extremists are flocking to Iraq for on-the-job training in assassination, kidnapping and bombing. The CIA document further cautions that unlike their Afghan counterparts, the Iraqi recruits are starting out already hostile to America, meaning they could pose more of a threat here.

In the wake of September 11, the Social Security Administration shared private information for hundreds, even thousands of Americans with the FBI. According to the Privacy Act of 1974, such information is only supposed to be released about those indicted for or convicted of crimes, but the FBI was able to bypass that, according to the "New York Times." A spokesman for Social Security said the disclosures serve the greater public good.

And the issue of flag-burning has returned to Capitol Hill for the fifth time. The House has passed a Constitutional amendment prohibiting the physical desecration of the American flag, aiming to overturn a 1989 Supreme Court decision. The vote was 286-130, but the measure is not likely to pass the Senate -- 35 senators are on record opposing it, leaving it short of the two-thirds needed.

And, Aaron, just a reminder here of a new feature at CNN.com. If you click the video link, you'll be able to see the day's best news clips at your leisure and at no cost, and by the way, the number one or most popular video right now is a flock of seagulls overtaking a Wisconsin town. It really looks like a scene from the movie "The Birds," doesn't it? BROWN: Yes, it -- unfortunately, too much like that for my taste.

CHOI: Yes, mine too.

BROWN: Still have nightmares about that, but thank you. We'll check again in a half hour and see what people are looking at. They should be watching the program.

In the parade of stories on identity theft and companies losing track of your personal data, you can sometimes get the impression that information exists purely to get loose and ruin your life. Just thinking about it that way can probably ruin your life. But, the fact is, there is no going back. Data can be stolen. It can be lost. It can be bought and sold, and often is, whether you realize it, authorize it, or not. It can also be used and not just to send you one more piece of junk mail. Perhaps it can be used to save your life instead.

Here's CNN Allan Chernoff.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALLAN CHERNOFF, CORRESPONDENT: Cancer-patient Karen Kranichfeld, four days out of the hospital, at her oncologist office for a checkup. Two Sundays ago Karen rushed to the emergency room with an allergic reaction to a drug. Doctors in E.R. had access to all of her medical records online.

KRANICHFELD: When I got to the hospital, I was not functioning well. You know, I really wasn't talking. I couldn't fill out forms. And to have all of the information at their fingertips and have all of these specialists with the information, made me feel just more secure, because it was a very scary time for me.

CHERNOFF: Back in her oncologist's office, Karen's hospital records, including a biopsy and her lab results, from Quest Diagnostics, are available online. The new system helps improve the quality of care, says Dr. Simeon Schwartz.

DR. SIMEON SCHWARTZ, WESTCHESTER MEDICAL GROUP: When I sit down at the computer to talk to Karen, I can rely that all of the information is there. I don't need to step out of the room, ask my staff to get reports. Everything I need to make the decision is right there at the time I need to see her.

CHERNOFF: Advocates of electronic medical records say they also can improve patient safety. No more misreading of a doctor's sloppy handwriting, and in the emergency room, picture an elderly patient who can't remember medications. With online records, the medications are there for the E.R. docs.

That's the case throughout Indianapolis, where hospitals have developed one of the nation's most advanced systems for accessing patients' records online. All major hospitals have computer databases that communicate with each other. Officials say they've suffered no theft of personal data, but can see they need to be vigilant. DR. MARC OVERHAGE, INDIANA HEALTH INFORMATION EXCHANGE: We are constantly under attack, as are most computer systems and networks across the world today. There is not, probably, a minute, goes by where there is not an attempt to probe or to attack our clinical information systems.

CHERNOFF: California regulators Monday, fined health insurer Kaiser Permanente $200,000, for allowing confidential health records exposed on the internet for as long as four years. And drug store chain CVS pulled its loyalty card system off line Tuesday after the revelation that an internet search could reveal a customer's non- pharmacy purchases.

One privacy advocate says the more medical records are shared, the greater of danger of security breaches.

MARC ROTENBERG, ELECTRONIC PRIVACY INFORMATION CTR.: Well, we think new technology can be used to improve the delivery of medical care in this country. There's really no objection on that point, but there also needs to be more attention paid to privacy protection. It's simply too easy today with advanced networks to gain access to personal information.

CHERNOFF: Getting patient records online saves money. Information available at the touch of a keystroke can speed up appointments and reduce recordkeeping, especially for radiologists.

DR. BRANDON SAVAGE, GE HEALTHCARE: With the digital imaging systems, they no longer have to print out films. They don't even have to have large storerooms for keeping track of all this. There's whole rooms in hospitals now that can be used for patient care or other things, that used to be used for storing records.

CHERNOFF: Dr. Schwartz says his system is cutting overhead more than 10 percent, but fewer than one of every five physician practices has such a computer network. Hoping to cut the cost of health care, the Bush administration is pressuring doctors and hospitals to go digital with patient records, and get them online.

So, despite the potential risk to privacy, the cost-savings means some of your most personal data, your medical records, will likely be online in the future, if they aren't already.

Allan Chernoff, CNN, White Plains, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: And on the program tonight -- God, man, and the Constitution at the Air Force Academy. Are cadets being pushed to embrace evangelical Christianity, or else? The results of a new Pentagon investigation, coming up.

And later, the art of selling a consumer lifestyle in which less is more. Green living is on the rise tonight.

This is NEWSNIGHT. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Well, if you took a carriage ride today through Central Park, you might have gotten rained on. It must sometimes seem to the men and women, the young cadets at the Air Force Academy, that they just can't get it right. First there was the sex abuse scandal that damaged the Academy's reputation. And now questions about whether evangelical Christians have, in a sense, taken over the place in a way that makes non-evangelicals and non-Christians uncomfortable, and pushes up against a separation of church and state as well. An investigation by the Air Force of religion at the Academy found problems. How deep is open to debate, and we will.

First, a report from the Pentagon, tonight -- CNN's Jamie McIntyre.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The investigation into the religious climate at the Air Force Academy found that some Christian faculty and coaches routinely crossed the line, sharing their religious beliefs in a way that was clearly intimidating to non- Christians.

FOXMAN: They were being told if they don't accept the Lord Jesus Christ, they will burn in hell, and that their first mission is for God and Jesus, later, for country.

MCINTYRE: The report says - quote -- "Some faculty members and coaches consider it their duty to profess their faith and discuss this issue in their classrooms in furtherance of developing cadets' spirituality."

REP. LOIS CAPPS (D), CALIFORNIA: The football coach, for example, is reported to use his position to urge players to go to church and be Christians. He even went so far as to put a banner in the Academy football team locker room reading, I'm a Christian first and last, I'm a member of team Jesus Christ

LT. GEN. ROGER BRADY, U.S. AIR FORCE: I think that the people who have done this, my experience, talking to them, was that they were well-intended but wrong.

MCINTYRE: What was far less common, investigators found, were outright religious slurs, such as experienced by this cadet.

CURTIS WEINSTEIN, AIR FORCE ACADEMY CADET: I didn't even really know the cadet, and he's like, aren't you Jewish? I'm like, yes, I am. And it was like, in the middle of a game or something. And he's like, how do you feel that you killed Jesus?

GEN. JOHN JUMPER, AIR FORCE CHIEF OF STAFF: The thing that we corrected were people who were standing up in front of cadets, expressing a personal belief, in a clear position of authority, that was not appropriate or sensitive to the feelings of the whole group. MCINTYRE: But the Lutheran Air Force chaplain who was among the critics who first complained evangelical Christians were out of line, and said she was transferred to Japan in retaliation, has just resigned. She says she's not convinced the Air Force is committed to fixing the problem.

CAPT. MELINDA MORTON, U.S. AIR FORCE CHAPLAIN: I am extremely sad for my Air Force. I am extremely sad for the Academy. I am -- I am beyond disheartened. It's a tragedy.

MCINTYRE: Because Captain Morton has alleged she was transferred because of her complaints, the Pentagon inspector general is now investigating her case. Meanwhile, the Air Force insists that new vigilance will ensure that religious beliefs of all cadets are respected.

Jamie McIntyre, CNN, the Pentagon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: The fact that Captain Melinda Morton is herself an Air Force chaplain, a Christian who took a stand against fellow chaplains, and some teachers, coaches and administrators, adds another layer to the story. We spoke to Captain Morton earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Captain Morton, I can't say I've read every word of the report, but in reading the reporting of the report, I think you come away with the sense that the Air Force sees this as a problem of individuals and not an institutional problem. From your perspective...

MORTON: Correct.

BROWN: From your perspective in Colorado Springs, is it an institutional problem?

MORTON: Well, I think that we said, very consistently and firmly from the beginning that our concern was that this is an institutional problem, that it's systemic and that it's pervasive. And I believe that Americans United and other groups from the outside have said so as well.

It is unfortunate that the Academy and the Air Force wishes to frame that in individualistic terms.

BROWN: To what extent, if at all, does the proximity of -- in Colorado Springs -- of some large, evangelical groups, how has that affected the Academy, if it's affected the Academy?

MORTON: Well, I think that you cannot deny the impact of the large and powerful evangelical organizations that reside right across the highway from the Air Force Academy. These are some of the largest and certainly some of the most powerful evangelical organizations in the United States, and they have a clear agenda, and they state that agenda quite boldly, and that agenda is to be actively influential and actively influential in the military.

Now, there's nothing wrong with that. That's actually perfectly acceptable for those institutions to do that, under the constitution. However, on the grounds of the Academy, then the Academy, as an institution harks to stand up and say, no, we will abide by the constitution here and will not allow people to use think power and their position as government actors to propagate conservative Christian ideology here and make that the approved religious ideology of the Air Force Academy.

BROWN: You know, maybe I should have started with this, but do you think the message from the institution, that is, the Air Force Academy has been, if you are not an evangelical Christian, you are not as worthy, as good, as capable, as we?

MORTON: I think, unfortunately, the message from the Air Force Academy is this. The Air Force Academy is a place where we do -- spend a lot of time building character, because that's very important to officership, and I think that the message at the Academy has been, when you're resourcing your character with spirituality, the approved bucket from which you need to resource your spirituality is conservative Christian, evangelical ideology, and that's where you need to reach. And those are the standards and traditions which are approved and accepted in the Air Force. And if you want to get ahead in the Air Force, those are the things which are approved by the Air Force to articulate.

BROWN: Let me ask one personal question. Answer it as you wish. When you stepped out in front here -- has this played out personally?

I mean, you're going to resign your commission. You've been moved around. It hasn't been altogether pleasant for you. Did you pretty much figure this is how it would go?

MORTON: I understood the consequences of what I was doing when I did that. So that is not necessarily a surprise to me. Is it disappointing to me? Of course, it is. Personally costly to some degree. But I understood -- I understood the consequences of what I was doing when I did it.

BROWN: Captain Morgan, we appreciate your time. It's -- what's happened at the academy is fascinating and difficult. And your help in understanding it as people may agree or not has been vital. We appreciate your time.

MORTON: Thank you very much.

BROWN: Thank you.

Captain Linda Morgan, not everyone agrees with her or agrees on who the victims are at the Air Force Academy. As we said, some see the charges that led to the Pentagon investigation as an attack on Christianity itself. Tony Perkins is the president of the Family Research Council. And we talked with him earlier tonight as well.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) BROWN: A member of Congress said the other day that he saw this investigation and this concern about the Air Force Academy as a virtual war on Christianity. Do you agree with that?

TONY PERKINS, FAMILY RESEARCH COUNCIL: Well, it's troubling. I think what we've seen today with the release of the report there was little, if any merit, at all to the claims that were made by these outside groups. Seven allegations made against the commandant, six of them were thrown out and one was said may have some merit, we'll have some further investigation.

It could have a very chilling effect upon those in positions of influence and leadership, and not only the Air Force Academy, but all of our military installations as if they can't have some kind of personal faith.

BROWN: I don't see the argument as that. It seems to me the argument is not whether faith broadly -- because clearly there are chaplains and faith is a part of our lives, and of the institution, the Air Force Academy and all the other academies -- it's whether a faith, a specific faith, a specific belief structure, is what is should be adopted.

PERKINS: Actually, that's one of the issues raised in the complaint by the Americans United, was that the chaplain was telling people in the chapel service that they should go out and make disciples, which happens to be a part of the evangelical faith. So, if you want them to have an opportunity to practice a faith, but a faith that has no impact or meaning, then, in fact, you are taking away their ability to participate in their faith.

BROWN: So the notion that it is inherent to some religions to proselytize ought not to be taken away from them simply because they're at federal-supported institution.

PERKINS: Why are chaplains there?

Chaplains have been a part of our military from the very beginning. And it's to council and to encourage people along their denominational faith structure. That's why we have Catholic priests that are chaplains. We have Protestant chaplains. There are now even Islamic chaplains as well in our military, to counsel people according to their faith.

And if we're going to censor what chaplains say because they're preaching according to the dictates of their faith, then obviously, there is a problem in the process.

BROWN: But -- I'm not big on censorship in any circumstance, but I wonder if there's an inherent conflict that comes up when the faith is being practiced at a federally-funded institution? Because there is, on the other hand -- I'm not telling you anything you don't know -- there's a constitutional issue here that has to be accommodated also.

PERKINS: Well Aaron, I think the constitutional issue is the institution, the institution promoting a faith.

BROWN: Yes. That's exactly it.

PERKINS: But that's not what we have leer.

BROWN: What we have are individuals within the institution that are practicing their faith. And that happens at some times take a public practice. And so what you're saying, in essence, is if someone is a -- say an evangelical Christian, they happen to be a part of an institution that happens to be the military, they cannot carry their faith in to that institution. That's not what the constitution says.

BROWN: And you're reading the report clears the Air Force Academy? Are you sure you want to say that?

PERKINS: No. I said the -- the commandant was the focus of many of these charges.

BROWN: But not the academy. You don't want to say the academy was cleared of religious intolerance.

PERKINS: Of overt discrimination, they were.

BROWN: Of religious intolerance and insensitivity?

PERKINS: There are issues that they're continued to look at. Our concern is that the allegations, many of which had no merit, will have a chilling effect upon those who are evangelical, who would openly practice their faith and make them somehow feel like they have to go undercover.

BROWN: It's good to see you. We appreciate your time tonight. Obviously, for me, this is a -- I find this a perhaps more complicated question in some respects than you do, but I think it's a complicated question. And we'll try to sort through tonight and we appreciate your help.

PERKINS: OK, Aaron.

BROWN: Thank you, sir.

PERKINS: OK.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Tony Perkins. Still to come, how a bartender became the president of a global think tank, more or less. A Washington story with a hint of scandal to it.

And one entrepreneur who is doing his best to promote clean living while making a buck or two. He's on the rise. So are we. This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: In a moment you'll hear from a bartender who ran a think tank in Washington. And if that sounds a bit off, try this. The think tank allegedly wasn't a think tank at all, it was a scam. And the high powered lobbyist connected to it, the one with close ties to the House majority leader, he wasn't just a lobbyist either, that according to federal investigators and not according to a senator looking into this mess, not by a long shot.

From the Hill tonight, CNN's Ed Henry.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HENRY (voice-over): Jack Abramoff hit the jackpot, according to Senate investigators, when he and an associate raked in more than $80 million to lobby for the gambling operations of six Indian tribes. But the lobbyist once known as "Casino Jack" may have seen his luck run out.

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (REP) ARIZONA: Today's hearing is about more than contempt, even more than greed, it's simply and sadly a tale of betrayal.

HENRY: At an explosive Senate hearing Wednesday, John McCain charged Abramoff and his associate, Michael Scanlon, use sham organizations and fake invoices to bilk those tribal clients out of millions of dollars.

McCain alleged Abramoff and Scanlon used a scheme dubbed "Gimmie Five" to siphon the money for themselves and their pet causes.

MCCAIN: According to January 8, 2002 e-mail from Mr. Abramoff to Mr. Scanlon, the two had charged the Mississippi Choctaw $7.7 million for projects in 2001. Of that amount, Mr. Scanlon spent $1.2 million for the efforts. He and Mr. Abramoff split an astounding $6.4 million.

HENRY: The committee also heard testimony from a young bartender and former lifeguard in Rehoboth Beach, Delaware, who claimed Scanlon approached him one day with an amazing offer.

DAVID GROSH, FMR. BUSINESS ASSOCIATE; He said, do you want to be head of an international corporation? It's a hard one to turn down.

HENRY: David Grosh agreed to run a corporation named The American International Center, which McCain insists was gigantic scam. Abramoff and Scanlon were not present at this hearing. But they have denied wrongdoing. However, a federal grand jury is already looking into allegations the duo defrauded several clients, which has put a bright light on Abramoff's lobbying activities.

ROSCOE HOWARD, FMR. U.S. ATTORNEY: If the things I've seen in the public record pan out, even to some degree, it's going to be a very long fall for him.

HENRY: Abramoff charged top dollar. His close ties to the most powerful Republican in Congress, House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, didn't hurt -- a relationship the lobbyist touted when he was riding high.

JACK ABRAMOFF, REPUBLICAN LOBBYIST: But Tom DeLay is who all of us want to be, when we grow up.

HENRY: These days, Abramoff is much less willing to talk about Majority Leader DeLay or indeed, anything at all, despite repeated efforts by CNN.

HENRY: Hi, Mr. Abramoff. Can we talk?

A former mentor of Abramoff says this is a sad, but far from unique, story.

MORTON BLACKWELL, CONSERVATIVE ACTIVIST: Many a conservative comes to Washington believing that it's a cesspool, and before long, concludes it's a hot tub.

HENRY: Abramoff reportedly used some of his hefty lobbying fees to give lawmakers improper gifts such as lavish trips like a journey to Scotland, he reportedly arranged for Tom DeLay, with a stay at the legendary St. Andrews golf course; a trip now expected to be probed by the House Ethics Committee.

DeLay says he followed House rules. A spokesman for Abramoff's attorney, Abbi Lowell (ph), says client is being singled out for actions that are common in Washington and has done nothing wrong.

Abramoff knew the dangers, as he himself noted during his appearance with Tom DeLay two summers ago.

ABRAMOFF: When people ascend to power in this town, the culture of this town, the establishment in this town, the "Washington Post, the "New York Times," all of these liberal institutions, take them over and they become people who want to be popular and are willing to sell out their principles.

HENRY: Jack Abramoff was speaking to the National College Republicans, the group he once ran when he was young and the future was bright.

Ed Henry, CNN, Capitol Hill.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Ahead on the program tonight, why Oprah Winfrey was turned away from one of the most exclusive stores in world. What, were they crazy?

We'll take a break first. This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Reverend Billy Graham on AMERICAN MORNING, tomorrow. Reverend Graham is in New York, for what he says is probably his last crusade here. Time, once again, to check some of the other stories that made news today. Sophia Choi joins us in Atlanta, tonight.

Good to see you, again.

CHOI: Hello again, Aaron.

Well, the luxury-goods store, Hermes, issued an apology today to Oprah Winfrey. The billionaire talk show host went to its Paris store last week, hoping to buy a watch for her good friend Tina Turner -- only to be turned away. Although some reports hinted at a racial aspect to the incident, the shop had in fact closed early for a press event.

And, this just in to CNN. Two men have been arrested in the stabbing death of Max Smith, the husband of Ashley Smith, the woman who persuaded the alleged Atlanta courthouse shooter to surrender this past March. The two are accused of killing Max Smith in an Augusta apartment complex in 2001.

And Aaron, just a reminder, viewers with Internet access can now log on to CNN and tonight we are featuring a flock of seagulls; no not the '80s band that we all remember and love, but the birds taking over a Wisconsin town. Watch where you step. Huh?

BROWN: Yes. Always.

CHOI: Always.

BROWN: There's always good advice.

CHOI: And watch out up above, too.

BROWN: Thank you very much.

It's free, too. We don't even charge extra for that video.

When I was a bit younger, lifestyle wasn't a word and Martha Stewart was a stock broker, not a brand name. Today, lifestyle is a billion-dollar business and trying to become the next Martha Stewart, while saving the planet, gets you on "The Rise."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DANNY SEO, ENVIRONMENTAL LIFESTYLE EXPERT: My name is Danny Seo. In addition to being an editor for "Organic Style" magazine, I would say I'm probably an environmental-lifestyle expert.

I started out as an activist when I was 12 years old and I was your typical soap-box activist. It wasn't until I was about 18 or 19 that I realized, you know, the environmental groups, we keep telling everyone what's wrong with the world and we have to change it, change the way we that we live our lives, but nobody was really telling people how.

This is actually the bottom of a wine bottle.

I try to show America how to live a more eco-friendly existence embracing all of the modern technologies and wonderful things that we have in the 21st century.

This is a book that I'm giving as a gift and it's wrapped in this really pretty ribbon. It's old VHS tapes.

I write lifestyle books, which is one of my favorite things to do. My last book was on renovating a home in an eco-friendly manner. We're working on a television show right now that I'll executive- produce and host.

Would you believe this chair was given a new look from an old sweater?

The audience that gets the most attention that I work with are celebrities and they're the ones who usually create most of the trends and most of the buzz and I kind of say: They're bringing attention to a cause such as solar panels for their home. Why not? That's great!

(SINGING)

One of the things I'm trying to focus on is to make eco-fashion sexy. Stella McCartney is one of the designers that I feel is an influencer who has created a very well-received line of fashion, but hasn't sold out on her ethical beliefs. So, she refuses to work with leather, refuses to work with fur.

One of the biggest concerns I get from people who send e-mails or letters, is that I want to live eco-friendly, but I can't afford to shop at some of these stores, I can't afford to buy organic, I can't afford to buy organic clothes and so I came up with a list of 50 items that were inexpensive and green.

In fact, sometimes even cheaper than their conventional counterpart. Things that people should really be concerned about: When buying electronic items like washing machines, refrigerators, televisions, get energy-star approved items.

I want to say it's very, very easy but to be honest, it does take al little bit of work. If you actually devote a little bit of time to it, if you read "Organic Style" magazine, if you pick up my books, you can do it.

When I was 12 I had one dream, one wish, and that was to save the planet by the year 2000. Well, the year 2000 passed, so I'm giving myself another 10 or 15 years.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: The greatest American, one of the "Morning Paper" headlines, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Okey-doke. Time to check the "Morning Papers" from around the country and around the world.

"The Dallas Morning News" starts it out. Right here in the center, if you will. "Out of House and Hope. Owner running out of options to cover costs." Don Cruz won a $1.5 million house in Tyler, Texas from a TV network. But unfortunately it came with a $631,000 federal tax bill he can't pay. Yikes!

"Demand For Stolen Data Puts Risks In Every Swipe." It's big deal in identity theft. We liked that story a lot.

I just liked the layout of this. "San Antonio Express New." "Bet On It." "Although Vegas odds makers say Spurs will win tonight," that would be tomorrow, "some fans are still uneasy." NBA finals.

"The Daily News" once again gets the tabloid award for the day. "Snake Is Hiss-Tory." That's a snake head gang leader, a woman who smuggled Chinese immigrants into the United States who died in New York. And she was convicted -- has been convicted.

"Chicago Sun-Times." How much? 30? I can get it done. We'll get to the weather in a second. Don't do the chime yet. "The greatest American gives you a number of choices, Martin Luther King, Ronald Reagan, Benjamin Franklin, George Washington, Abraham Lincoln" All worthy, perhaps some more than others. You get to vote on them if you go to page 39 of the "Chicago Sun-Times." And while you are there, you might want to check the weather in Chicago. Love that. Blistering. It's going to be 90 in the windy city tomorrow.

We'll wrap it up in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DESMOND TUTU, FRM. SECRETARY GENERAL SOUTH AFRICAN COUNCIL OF CHURCHES: Our struggle is great. We'll succeed, because it is a just struggle.

TOMMY MUKABO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: During the dog days of apartheid in South Africa, he was the voice of hope.

TUTU: That this must be the last of its kind.

MUKABO: Archbishop Tutu always claimed he was a leader by default, but he used his faith to inspire black South Africans to fight for freedom peacefully. In honor of his battle against apartheid, Tutu won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1984. And when apartheid crumbled ten years later, President Nelson Mandela appointed Tutu to lead the Truth and Reconciliation Commission to help South Africa deal with the crimes committed during apartheid.

TUTU: We must face this ghastly past and not pretend it never happened.

MUKABO: Often the truth of the past was painful, even reducing Tutu to tears.

Now age 73, Tutu is still outspoken on issues around the world from war to crimes committed in the name of God.

TUTU: God is not a Christian nor is god a Muslim. All, all are God's children. MUKABO: Despite a battle with prostate cancer in 1997, Tutu continues to inspire nonviolent political change around the world and works with the peace center that bears his name.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Good to have you with us. We'll see you tomorrow. Good night for all of us.

END

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