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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports
Press Conference with Hawkins Family; Iraq Situation; Afghanistan Hunt; Air Force Academy Religious Intolerance; Billy Graham in New York
Aired June 22, 2005 - 16:52 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... field questions. They want to make a thank-you comment first and then they'll take questions.
JODY HAWKINS, BRENNAN'S MOTHER: I just want to introduce our family, is all. This is Brennan and this is his Cameron his next brother. This is Mariah, his sister you've seen. You know Sophie. This is Taylor his brother and Mitchell, who's eight. These are my parents back here. We're not going to get into all them. This is our support team. This is our rock. This is what got us through: These people you see right here. These -- this is it.
TOBY HAWKINS, BRENNAN'S FATHER: We'd like to field questions and we'd like those directed to everybody but our younger boy Mitchell, and Brennan.
So who's first?
QUESTION: How you doing, Brennan?
BRENNAN HAWKINS, RESCUED BOY SCOUT: Good.
TOBY HAWKINS: I just asked you not to ask a question of Brennan.
QUESTION: How's he doing, Dad.
TOBY HAWKINS: I think he's doing very well. I think you can see it in his eyes. He's looks...
J. HAWKINS: He's tired.
TOBY HAWKINS: Very healthy. He's very tired. He's kind of nodded off for a couple naps this afternoon.
He has had fun playing with his brothers and his friends and stuff. He's been, as we mentioned before, playing Pokemon and just getting back to business as usual, as much as we can.
QUESTION: Why was it important for you to bring your entire family out here today to meet everyone?
J. HAWKINS: This is who we are. We're a group. We started as a group. We'll always be a group.
QUESTION: Has this forever changed your family? If so, how?
TOBY HAWKINS: Well, I....
J. HAWKINS: Go ahead, Timmy.
TIMMY HAWKINS, BROTHER OF BRENNAN: If anything, it's brought our family closer together. We've always loved each other and now that tie has just brought us closer and closer with all these people.
J. HAWKINS: I've never seen you guys so quiet.
(LAUGHTER)
QUESTION: You're Taylor right? Did you get to go search at all?
TAYLOR HAWKINS, BROTHER OF BRENNAN: Yes, I came up Friday night and I searched the entire time.
QUESTION: What was it like for you, going through that experience looking for your little brother.
TAYLOR HAWKINS: It was awesome. Just seeing the amount of support and everybody that came up, I can't thank everybody enough. There were so many people that just went out of their way to help. People that have never even seen my family before that just went out just because, you know, they knew it was the right thing to do. And I'd like to, again, thank everybody that came out.
QUESTION: Taylor, I heard you were quite a leader out there. Can you tell us where you got that strength to persevere out there and sounds like, command a group of 30 people or so?
TAYLOR HAWKINS: Everything I've learned, I've learned from my family. My dad and mom have taught me since I was a young kid, to lead. My dad has always said that I was a leader. I don't know how great of a leader I am, but I just tried to do my best.
[ inaudible ]
TOBY HAWKINS: The first thing he says, you know, he was happy to see us and he asked for his Pokemon cards.
(LAUGHTER)
So --
J. HAWKINS: I was going to tell you what happened this morning after we talked. I went back in and he had gotten up and taken a shower and standing in his boxers and I said, "Brennan, you're on television." He said, "I am?"
(LAUGHTER)
TOBY HAWKINS: We've kind of purposely, kind of avoided it. Every once in awhile we'll have quiet moments and stuff. But I think that's going to come through time.
Some of the things that -- I just think that he's exhausted. He's really tired and I don't know that Brennan is really ready to tell us, you know, I don't know that he's ready to talk about it himself.
QUESTION: Hey, Toby, can you speak to us? I don't know if Mr. Bardsley is here, but can you speak to us: Upon realizing that Brennan was OK, how you felt for Kevin Bardsley at that point? Knowing...
TOBY HAWKINS: Well, I mentioned earlier in a press conference this morning that when -- when we got word about Brennan and I was headed over to that search and rescue truck that was taking us -- taking me to the scene, my thoughts instantly turned to Kevin and Heidi.
They are wonderful people and we don't know the reason why Garrett has never been found. And all the energy and everything that went into that search, it produced --
J. HAWKINS: This is the result.
TOBY HAWKINS: It set the foundation for us and I expressed my condolences and my love and my support and as you guys know, what we have the desire to do is to channel all the energy -- if anybody has the generous -- generosity to contribute to the FindGarrett.org foundation, we'd appreciate it. Because those resources will go to not only find Garrett so they can get added closure, but also to help young children that are lost -- unfortunately that may be lost in the future.
J. HAWKINS: That's our whole message now is to go take what Kevin has started, from what he's learned, add to it what we've learned and continue on with that so this doesn't happen anymore.
QUESTION: Toby, you had talked about getting to the point where you started to hate the moon. Do you think there's a time when you're going to enjoy seeing the moonlight?
J. HAWKINS: He did last night. Absolutely, It's a whole different feeling when you know your kids are home safe.
QUESTION: Were any of the siblings one at a time -- [ inaudible ] after all of this, has your attitude changed about your brother? If so, in what way?
J. HAWKINS: Cameron, go ahead.
CAMERON HAWKINS, BRENNAN'S BROTHER: We just have a better appreciation...
J. HAWKINS: Talk in the microphone.
C. HAWKINS: We just have a better appreciation for him. So, we'll be better to him and to our family.
MARIAH HAWKINS, BRENNAN'S SISTER: If anything, it made us realize what a difference it makes without him, how big of a contribution he makes to our family and how much of a group he makes it. Without him, it's not our family.
QUESTION: Can you share with us a little bit about your thoughts as kids: As each day passed, [INAUDIBLE] were you a little more worried?
M. HAWKINS: I mean, the more time that passed, we definitely were more and more worried, but like we've said before, through this entire experience, we feel like we were blessed with a calming feeling that everything would be OK and we just never stopped and never gave up hope and the result was that we found him.
QUESTION:: I have a question for the sister: What was some of your reactions when you found he was found?
M. HAWKINS: I was telling -- I just talking to my friend on the phone and I said that yesterday in ten minutes, I felt the lowest I've ever felt and the highest I've ever felt. In the space of just a few minutes we were hysterical with joy and we had hoped for the best but we never thought that it could an outcome this good and so the first thing we did was say a prayer thanking our Heavenly Father for helping us find him and just got together as a family and just hugged him and -- that was the main thing.
Anything else?
QUESTION: What do you want everybody to know about Brennan? I mean you've got this worldwide audience.
TOBY HAWKINS: Well, I think what we want everybody to know is that, you know, Brennan is just a typical boy. He's an 11-year-old, but you know, he's manifests to us this inconquerable (SIC) spirit. He is remarkably resilient. He is a focused kid and he had a mission to accomplish, and he accomplished it.
QUESTION: Can you speak more specifically how he could survive that long?
TOBY HAWKINS: We talked about the miracle factor, if you want to call it that. We really do think that there was some divine intervention. I think one of the key factors was that is that he -- you know, that first night, we had temperatures that were, you know, lows that were in the 50s. We didn't get temperatures that were below the mid-40s. That was something that assured his survivability. We didn't have rain. You know, in Utah, temperatures can swing in such a hurry and the weather can change so much. Those were probably some of the -- four of the most beautiful days we had.
You know, I think that -- thank heavens that Brennan had a sweat shirt. You know, thank heavens that Brennan happens to like that little -- what's the -- midget mode. Brennan likes to get in that midget mode, and it keeps him warm, and that's how he went through it.
QUESTION: Can you show us the midget mode?
JODY HAWKINS, BRENNAN'S MOTHER: That's what I just asked him.
TOBY HAWKINS: You got it.
J. HAWKINS: There's only one change. That's the only change. This is how he spent four days, in midget mode.
TOBY HAWKINS: You know, Brennan has a little bit of sunburn on his back. I think it's because, you know, he feels comfortable in that position and it's -- sure, maybe raised up just a little bit, and I think he spent a lot of time in this position. You know, he felt secure.
QUESTION: Looks like he's all fully recovered from any...
TOBY HAWKINS: Yes, he is. We received a clean bill of health from the Primary Children's Hospital last night, and he needs to work through some issues. You know, this is all very overwhelming for him and us, and we just want to get a sense of normalcy back in our family.
QUESTION: Have you talked a lot today (ph)?
J. HAWKINS: We haven't had a lot of time today. We tried to sneak in moments of quiet time when we can, but we haven't had a lot of them.
M. HAWKINS: He appreciates everything that people did for him. He said he's in Pokemon heaven right now, because so many people have given him things. That's his favorite.
J. HAWKINS: It's just (INAUDIBLE), it's not necessarily one thing or another. It's just something he had to focus and kind of -- really think about.
We just really want to say thanks to the people behind us. This is an amazing group of people behind us. You'll never find better people than are standing right here, right behind us, and friends and family scattered throughout.
QUESTION: How are you planning to help Brennan handle all of the world's attention over the next coming days (ph)?
J. HAWKINS: I don't -- he doesn't understand. I mean, we've gone over it, and I said, you know, there's people in Texas and Canada that are looking at you, and he said, they're out front? He doesn't understand it. You know, it's too much. I doubt he really makes the connection between the two. He is sheltered. I've seen no coverage at all, and so he's seen very little.
I think we need to get him back in the house though. He's freezing.
TOBY HAWKINS: Thank you.
J. HAWKINS: Thank you very much, you guys.
BLITZER: A very, very lucky young boy, 11-year-old Brennan Hawkins, speaking with reporters, not saying anything, his parents doing all the talking, Toby and Jody Hawkins, as well as the siblings.
Welcome to WOLF BLITZER REPORTS. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.
To our viewers, it was a nightmare. Few people could imagine, but a family did indeed live through it, when their 11-year-old son disappeared in the wilderness for four days. Brennan Hawkins, as we now see, safe at home. His family, as we just saw, also speaking out about their truly emotional ordeal.
CNN's Rusty Dornin is live on the scene for us in Utah. She's joining us. Rusty, fill in some of the blanks -- how this all unfolded, how he managed to survive these four days alone.
RUSTY DORNIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, one of the most incredible things, Wolf, is that, you know, it's starting to rain and thunder and lightning right now. That didn't happen to him over the four days he was up in the mountains. It was warm. It was dry. That was critical in terms of him not suffering any kind of hypothermia.
Now, he's not -- as you can see also from the press conference -- he's not very verbal. He has a difficult time expressing himself, so he's just come out with a few clues to what happened during those days. He thought he had only been gone a couple of nights; of course, he was gone four days. You might have seen him go into the crouch he calls the midget mound. That's when he gets down, like kids do, and they pull their sweatshirt over their knees to keep warm. He apparently did that. He told his dad he hadn't had anything to drink the entire time, but they think that probably he did, because he wasn't -- he was dehydrated but not too much so.
When he came out for this press conference today, he just -- people asked him how he was. He sort of just mumbled something. His father said, you know -- didn't want us to ask him any questions directly. Now, this is the second press conference bringing up the whole family and bringing out Brennan. He was asleep at an earlier press conference when his mother talked about the fear and the anxiety that they went through for four days.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
J. HAWKINS: I never felt that he was abducted, that he was in harm's way. I felt peace with the situation, but at that point, I really didn't think he could have survived that long in the wilderness. And, so, when I got into the sheriff's -- when I was going to get into the sheriff's car, I knew they were going to tell me that Brennan was no longer with me, and I collapsed before I could get into the truck, and they put me into the truck and when they told me that Brennan was still alive and that he was in good shape -- my brain still cannot comprehend that.
It's just been, you know -- we talk about it. Up there wasn't real. This isn't real, and it's going to take some time to process this event in our heads.
(END VIDEO CLIP) DORNIN: And as you can see, very -- the Hawkins, a very close family, very much involved in the search, the cousins, brothers, sisters, the neighborhood, the town of Bountiful, that has come together here to help out this family and also now come to help celebrate with them. As you heard, his parents said, he's in Pokemon heaven. He's more absorbed in sort of getting his life back than really talking about what happened to him over the past few days.
His father did, in response to a question, say he hasn't talked a whole lot more about it this afternoon since he woke up from his nap, and they don't want to pressure him. They'll let it -- you know, when he comes out with things, they'll talk about it, but they're certainly not pressuring him to find out what happened, but, certainly, a fantastic sending to this story, Wolf.
BLITZER: Rusty, do we know yet what actually happened? What triggered him wandering off or why he was perhaps lured away from the rest of the Cub Scouts five days ago?
DORNIN: No indication because he has not told anyone. Now, he knew the path, apparently, from the areas that -- when he was walking at this camp. Somehow he veered off, obviously, and got lost but he has not shared with his family or at least if he has, they have not shared with us, how he initially became lost.
But the thing is, he also -- when I say he doesn't express him very well verbally -- he also takes things very literally, and they told him to stay on the path and don't talk to strangers. Now, those two things were responsible for him, perhaps, not getting found sooner, but ended up being -- that he was found, because he stayed on the path. That's where they found him, on the path.
As far as not talking to strangers, apparently, he did see searchers on horseback. He was told -- remembered the rule, don't talk to strangers. He hid from the searchers. Perhaps he might have found a little bit sooner if he had come out then. So, he -- a lot of things going on here. Very complex situation, as to why it took so long to find Brennan Hawkins.
BLITZER: All right, Rusty Dornin, on the scene for us, a very, very happy family, lots of happy friends and acquaintances, lots of happy people around the country watching the story. Rusty Dornin, on the scene for us. Thanks very much.
And, as Rusty points out, there are important lessons to be learned in the Hawkins story for all parents, showing just how difficult it is to prepare children for rather unusual circumstances. CNN's Brian Todd to is here. He's been looking into that, as well.
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, Brennan's parents today praised him for doing what they told him to do if he ever got lost in the wilderness, but in the wake of his rescue, one question that crops up, could one piece of advice they gave him have actually endangered him?
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) (voice-over): Now basking in the best of news, the Hawkins family is shedding light on what might have saved 11-year-old Brennan's life and what might have prolonged his four-day ordeal.
TOBY HAWKINS, BRENNAN'S DAD: Brennan was just rock-solid in everything that he'd been taught.
JODY HAWKINS: He was.
T. HAWKINS: You know? He was on a trail. He stayed away from strangers. He knew that it would be bad if he was taken by a stranger.
TODD: Brennan Hawkins was eventually rescued by a volunteer on an all-terrain vehicle, but the sheriff and family members say searchers had come close to Brennan before he was found. They say he was scared to approach rescuers, and even hid from them, possibly because they were not using the family's password. Could his own family's advice, issued with safety in mind, have turned the tables and endangered Brennan?
ANN SCOFIELD, CTR FOR MISSING & EXPLOITED CHILDREN: I certainly would not at all disagree with the instructions that the parent has given that child.
TODD: But, Ann Scofield with the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children says her group no longer embraces the concept of so-called "stranger danger." She says these situations are often too complex for a child to distinguish who can hurt them and who can help.
SCOFIELD: There are individuals, unknown to them, perhaps even entitled as a stranger, who can offer assistance and recovery -- uniformed personnel, a law enforcement officer, obviously, cashiers at retail store, a mother with children.
TODD: Scofield acknowledges Brennan Hawkins out in the wilderness with strangers not in uniform looking for him was presented with a unique risk. But she says parents can prepare kids for that, too. One idea: tell them that strangers they see who are calling their name are likely well intentioned.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TODD: An example of the irony often found in these stories, Brennan's mother, Jodi Hawkins said the volunteer who found her son was actually lost himself. He was in a different search grid from the one he had been assigned -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Lucky break for all concerned. Thanks very much, Brian Todd, useful information.
This programming note to our viewers, Brennan's father Toby Hawkins will be on "ANDERSON COOPER 360" tonight 7:00 p.m. Eastern. This is his first one-on-one interview. That airs tonight.
Baghdad was rocked by a series of car bombs in one hour today. One targeted a U.S. military convoy near Iraq's International Airport, another detonated near an Iraqi government convoy and three more, by far the deadliest, detonated by remote control only minutes apart. That story from our Jennifer Eccleston in Baghdad.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JENNIFER ECCLESTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Iraqi police tell CNN three car bombs went off almost simultaneously about half a mile apart. They say that 18 people were killed and 46 were wounded in a mainly Shiite district of West Baghdad. Now, the bombs went off in a ten-minute span around 9:00 p.m. local time in the neighborhood of Shula, which has been the site of multiple car bomb attacks and killings.
Now, the details are sketchy, but what we know right now is that the first car bomb took place in front of the office of Muqtada al Sadr. He's the Shiite cleric that's based in Najaf. The second one went off in front of a garage. And the third one at the neighborhood's main entrance.
Now, police say only Iraqi civilians were targeted. There were no police -- Iraqi police, nor were there any Iraqi military present.
Now, the Shula neighborhood is considered one of those focal points here in Baghdad of tension between the Shiite and the Sunni communities.
Jennifer Eccleston, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: There's a grim new assessment of the war in Iraq, and it comes from the CIA. Sources tell CNN a new classified report says Iraq has become a training ground for Islamic terrorists who may use the lessons they've been learning there in other places. Our national security correspondent David Ensor reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAVID ENSOR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The new classified CIA reports says Islamist terrorists are likely to take urban combat techniques like car bombings, kidnappings and assassinations that they are perfecting in Iraq to their home countries: Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and try to destabilize those governments.
According to officials who read it, the report says Iraq may turn out to be an even more effective training ground for terrorists than Afghanistan was under the Taliban -- Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda ran training camps there. Those terrorists could also end up in Europe or the U.S.
The White House spokesman said the U.S. prefers to fight the extremists in Iraq.
SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: That's why it's so important that we succeed in Iraq, because when we succeed in Iraq and Afghanistan, that will be -- those will be major blows to the terrorists and their ideology that they seek to spread.
ENSOR: U.S. officials say they have captured Saudis, Syrians, Egyptians and others with the insurgents in Iraq. The threat they pose was highlighted by CIA director Porter Goss in recent testimony.
PORTER GOSS, CIA DIRECTOR: Islamic extremists are exploiting the Iraqi conflict to recruit new anti-U.S. jihadists. Those jihadists who survive will leave Iraq experienced and focused on acts of urban terrorism. They represent a potential pool of context to build transnational terror cells, groups and networks in Saudi Arabia, Jordan and other countries.
DENNIS PLUCHINSKY, FORMER STATE DEPT. ANALYST: There are a lot of seeds of potential conflict, especially in Western Europe and also in the Middle East, of people going back and setting up cells. In other words, the true impact of Iraq probably won't be felt for maybe four, maybe five or six years.
ENSOR (on camera): U.S. officials say the kind of urban warfare techniques they're learning from Iraqi insurgents were not learned in mostly rural Afghanistan. And they say the Iraq veterans could one day pose a threat worldwide.
David Ensor, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has quite a to-do list when it comes to Iraq. She's seeking aid from Europe and other places to try to improve security and economic opportunities in the war-torn nation. Today in an interview with Brussels with our John King, the secretary offered her own assessment about the hunt for Osama bin Laden.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CONDOLEEZZA RICE, SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, my view of the hunt for Osama bin Laden is that on the day that I get the phone call that he's been found, that will be a very important day. But close is not good enough. We just have to -- there's a very active campaign to get him. His world has clearly gotten a lot smaller.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: The secretary's also continuing to defend the Bush administration's optimistic assessment of the future of Iraq, but admits challenges remain.
Please stay tuned to CNN day and night for the most reliable news about your security.
And this important programming note to our viewers. Tomorrow on this program, I'll have an exclusive interview with the Vice President Dick Cheney. That airs on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS tomorrow, 5:00 p.m. Eastern. When we come back, nuclear ambitions of a very different kind. Does the United States need more nuclear power plants built in this country? The president weighs in.
Under fire: we're on patrol along the frontline in the war on terror. Our Barbara Starr takes us to the Afghanistan-Pakistani border.
In depth with Nancy Grace: Once on track to be an English professor, one event changed her life forever. She shares her personal story with us this hour. Nancy Grace joins me. That's coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: President Bush visited one nuclear power plant today and said it's time for the United States to start building more of them. The president toured the Calvert Cliffs Power Plant in Maryland which already has two nuclear reactors and could become the site of the first new reactor to be built in the United States since the 1970s. The president says the nation needs more nuclear power.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: In the 21st century, our nation will need more electricity, more safe, clean, reliable electricity. It is time for this country to start building nuclear power plants again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Mr. Bush also called on congress to pass an energy bill before the August recess.
The Pentagon has completed an investigation into alleged religious intolerance at the United States Air Force Academy. Critics say evangelical Christians have been harassing cadets who don't share their faith. Today the Air Force released its findings. Our senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre is standing by with details -- Jamie.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well Wolf, for Air Force investigators, it's a question of when does a profession of religious faith become an example of religious intolerance?
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE (voice-over: The investigation into the religious climate at the Air Force Academy found only what it termed the occasional outright slur, such as experienced by this cadet.
CURTIS WEINSTEIN, AIR FORCE ACADEMY CADET: I didn't even know the cadet and he's like aren't you Jewish? I'm like yes I am. And it was in the middle of a game or something. And he's like, how do you feel that you killed Jesus? MCINTYRE: But it also found that some academy facility and coaches routinely crossed the line, sharing their religious beliefs in a way that was clearly intimidating to nonChristians.
ABRAHAM FOXMAN, ANTI-DEFAMATION LEAGUE: The football team was called "Team Jesus." There were prayers before the game. And these were all built up an atmosphere of intolerance.
MCINTYRE: The report says, quote,"some faculty members and coaches consider it their duty to profess their faith and discuss this issue in their classrooms in furtherance of developing cadets' spirituality."
FOXMAN: They were being told that if they don't accept the Lord Jesus Christ, they will burn in Hell, that their first mission is for God and Jesus and later for country.
LT. GEN. ROGER BRADY, U.S. AIR FORCE: I think that the people who have done this, my experience talking to them, was that they were well intended, but wrong.
MCINTYRE: The Air Force says that has stopped.
GEN. JOHN JUMPER, AIR FORCE CHIEF OF STAFF: The thing that we corrected were people who were standing up in front of cadets expressing a personal belief in a clear position of authority that was not appropriate or sensitive to the feelings of the whole group.
MCINTYRE: But the Lutheran Air Force chaplain who was among the critics who first complained evangelical Christians were out of line has just resigned saying she's not convinced the Air Force is committed to addressing the problem.
CAPT. MELINDA MORTON, FORMER U.S. AIR FORCE CHAPLAIN: I am extremely sad for my Air Force. I am extremely sad for the Academy. I am -- I am beyond disheartened. It's a tragedy.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: Because Captain Morgan has alleged she was transferred because of her complaints, the Pentagon's inspector general is investigating her case. Meanwhile, the Air Force says that new vigilance will ensure that every cadet's religious beliefs are respected at the academy and in the Air Force -- Wolf.
WOLF: All right. Jamie McIntyre, thanks very much.
Battle on the border: What daily life is really like along the Afghan-Pakistani border. Our Barbara Starr is there with U.S. forces as they hunt for members of al Qaeda.
Casino connections: Did a super lobbyist here in Washington betray the group of American Indians he was paid to represent?
And later, evangelist Billy Graham preparing for his last American crusade. Find out why he's chosen New York City. Our Mary Snow is there. She'll have the story.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: In Southern Afghanistan, one of the deadliest battles since the Taliban were booted from power. U.S. and Afghan forces were on a search and destroy mission looking for rebel sanctuaries when they came under attack. They say they returned fire, killing dozens of insurgents. One Afghan policeman was killed.
Other troops are focused on the border with Pakistan where the insurgency is said to be well hidden, well armed and well financed. Our Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr is on that border.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm just going -- I'm going to quickly go over the situation.
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): We are about to go on patrol along the frontline in the war on terror: the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The biggest threat out there would be an IED.
STARR: These troops are departing from a forward operating base where special forces about go on patrol every day to look for insurgents. Commanders tell us there are growing indications that fighters infiltrating across the Pakistan border are backed by money and organization.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE; They're carrying -- and what they're interestingly doing, they're carrying all the same kit, they all have the same number of magazines, the same number of hand grenades. So they're organized. You can tell by when you capture them that they're not a rag tag unit coming across.
STARR: As we traveled this rough terrain, a sudden stop. There is word ahead that Afghan troops traveling with us have heard al Qaeda on their radios. There have been many ambushes here, no one is taking any chances.
We stopped to check in at another remote fire base, 7,000 feet high in these mountains. It is a cat and mouse game between the U.S. troops and the insurgents. Dozens of insurgents have been killed in recent weeks. Commanders here say 23 U.S. troops have been wounded and five killed since June 1.
(on camera): This U.S. Afghan fire base has just been rocketed from a position that the forces here believe was near the Pakistan border which is just about a mile and a half away. U.S. Army soldiers here have just returned mortar fire.
(voice-over): The soldiers here launched their mortars within minutes of the attack. They are ready to fire 24/7.
U.S. commanders here say many of the attacks are conducted by Taliban and al Qaeda fighters who come across these mountains from Pakistan, launch their weapons and then disappear back across the border.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fire.
STARR: An Afghan soldier is wounded in the attack and medevac'd to a combat surgical team. His shrapnel wounds are quickly treated.
U.S. special forces continue to believe Osama bin Laden is hiding somewhere in the mountains of Pakistan which lie just beyond this ridge line. But for the Afghan and U.S. troops here, it is this dangerous border region that remains their major concern.
Barbara Starr, CNN, along the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: And when we come back, high stakes hearing. Were Native Americans taken advantage of by a man they hired to represent them here in Washington? New documents just released. We'll go live to Capitol Hill. Joe Johns standing by.
Critical and sometimes criticized, legal talk show host Nancy Grace is never afraid to share her opinion, but does she sometimes go too far? I'll ask her when she joins us live. That's coming up, as well.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Crucial testimony today about casino gambling. A high- stakes Senate hearing is examining the business dealings of lobbyist Jack Abramoff. He's accused of bilking Indian tribes of millions of dollars while lobbying on behalf of their casinos. Our congressional correspondent Joe Johns is on Capitol Hill with the latest. Joe?
JOE JOHNS, CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: ...on the money trail today, Senate investigators now zeroing in on the millions paid by the Mississippi Choctaw Indians to two Washington powerplayers.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOE JOHNS, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The unlikely star witness in a multimillion dollar money trail investigation, David Grosh: construction worker, bartender and former lifeguard in Rehoboth Beach, Delaware -- describing how a top Washington public relations man set him up in business at this house a couple blocks from the beach.
DAVID GROSH, FORMER ABRAMOFF EMPLOYEE: Do you want to be head of an international corporation? A hard one to turn down.
JOHNS: Grosh agreed to put his name on a corporation called the American International Center.
GROSH: I asked him what I had to do, and you know, he said nothing. So that sounded pretty good to me.
JOHNS: Unknown to him, it was part of a web of questionable entities created by Washington super-lobbyist Jack Abramoff and PR man Mike Scanlon now under investigation by the Senate and the Justice Department.
Senators accuse them of allegedly siphoning off millions of dollars in lobbying fees from Indian tribes that run casinos in a complicated series of transactions and kick-back schemes they called "Gimme Five.
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN, (R) ARIZONA: According to January 8, 2002 e- mail from Mr. Abramoff to Mr. Scanlon, the two had charged the Mississippi Choctaw $7.7 million for projects in 2001. Of that amount, Mr. Scanlon spent 1.2 million for the efforts. He and Mr. Abramoff split an astounding $6.5 million.
JOHNS: McCain suggested some of the tribe's money, intended for lobbying, was used for other purposes, including Abramoff's own personal charitable foundation. Some of it ended up as controversial donations.
MCCAIN: Is it fair to say that neither Mr. Abramoff nor Mr. Scanlon ever told anyone at the tribe that the tribe's money would be used to finance paramilitary activities in Israel?
NELL ROGERS, MISS. BAND OF CHOCTAW INDIANS: Oh, no. We only learned that from your staff.
JOHNS: The Mississippi band of Choctaws flatly said they were ripped off.
DONALD KILGORE, MISS. BAND OF CHOCTAW INDIANS: It's become apparent that Jack Abramoff and Mike Scanlon engaged in a consistent pattern of kickbacks, misappropriated funds, payments induced under false pretenses, and padded billings.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
JOHNS (on camera): Abramoff and Scanlon deny wrongdoing and Abramoff spokesman says the tribes got their money's worth and more. Wolf?
BLITZER: Joe Johns on Capitol Hill, thanks very much.
When we come back, one-on-one with the always-outspoken Nancy Grace. As a prosecutor of felony cases, she compiled a perfect record, and now she shares her views daily as a legal talk show host. Nancy Grace joins me live. That's coming up next.
And later, the Reverend Billy Graham takes on New York City. The evangelical pastor once described the city as one of the strong-holds of Satan. Find out what he's doing there now. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back.
Nancy Grace is quickly becoming one of the most high-profile personalities here on cable television. A former Atlanta prosecutor, she shares her outspoken and often controversial opinions about the criminal justice system on Court TV and every weeknight on CNN Headline News at 8:00 p.m. Eastern, and now she's written her first book. It's called "Objection: How High-Priced Defense Attorneys, Celebrity Defendants, and a 24-seven Media Have Hijacked Our Criminal Justice System." It debuts this week on "The New York Times" best- seller list at number seven.
She's joining us now, live, from New York.
Nancy, congratulations on the new book. Thanks for joining us.
NANCY GRACE, ATTORNEY: Thank you, Wolf, for having me.
BLITZER: All right. Let's get to the part of the book jacket, the title that I'm intrigued by: "The 24/7 Media Have Hijacked Our Criminal Justice System."
Aren't you part of that 24/7 media?
GRACE: Well, Wolf, I prefer to think of myself as part of the answer, part of the solution. When you read the book, you will you see that what I object to about the media, as it relates to our justice system, is the way that certain lawyers twist and turn it.
I'll give you a little example: Before a criminal case, my old boss, the districts attorney in Atlanta allowed me to say I believe in my case and the jury system and I think we will have a verdict that speaks the truth -- end of story.
Now, that is typical amongst prosecutors because if prosecutors give a public statement, they are tainting the jury pool. You know what they'll get? they'll either get barred from prosecuting the case or they'll get a change of venue, which will then hurt the state.
However, unless there's a gag order, you will see the defense speaking out. Do I have to say: Robert Blake? Before Bonnie Lee Bakley's body was cold, Wolf Blitzer, his attorney was out trashing the mother of his child, Rosie. Do I have to say Mark Geragos, Scott Peterson? I mean, Wolf, think back on it. I've got to get a flow chart. Let's see, there was a satanic cult. There was a love besotted neighbor, I mean...
BLITZER: All right. Hold on, Nancy. Hold on, Nancy.
I still don't understand what the 24/7 news media have to do -- you're criticizing some of the defense attorneys.
GRACE: The media allows this to happen without trying to get behind the truth of it. The first time I heard the theory of, satanic cult killed Laci Peterson, I recognized it for the B.S. that it was.
BLITZER: But if a defense attorney... GRACE: But very often that does not check.
BLITZER: Nancy, but if a defense attorney in a high-profile case is making statements, should we censor those statements and not report it. ?
GRACE: No. No, certainly not censor, but test, Wolf. The power of cross examination. The power of questioning, Wolf, is what I think is appropriate in a situation like that.
BLITZER: I still -- help me understand also your role in the 24/7 media and if you're self-critical about what you do, based on the title of your book.
GRACE: Yes, you're right and you know, Wolf, I think that all of us can use a little dose of self-analysis -- always. And if you will notice, not only on Court TV, but on my "HEADLINE NEWS" show, which I'm very grateful to have, I always have on at least two, if not three, defense attorneys to take on, to share the other side. Very often, if you take a look at the news, the other side, the side of the state, the side of the crime victim, is not heard and I object to that.
BLITZER: So what should we be doing differently -- the 24/7 media. I'm talking about CNN and the other cable news networks, Court TV, that cover the criminal justice system -- what do you want us to be doing differently as opposed to what we're doing right now?
GRACE: Well, what really concerns me, Wolf, is the effect that the media may have on the jury. Legal talking-heads and pundits they can yak, yak, yak all they want to, but my concern is what if any effect that will have on a jury. And the cure for that, of course, is in the courtroom during jury selection.
BLITZER: But on that -- and all of your Court TV appearances before the Michael Jackson verdict, on "HEADLINE NEWS," on your own program, a lot of your critics point out, Nancy, you had fundamentally convicted Michael Jackson. Wouldn't that have tainted the jury pool?
GRACE: Well, number one: No legal pundit, no trial lawyer, not in the courtroom, has the power to convict or acquit anyone. However, as you just mentioned, I do believe we live in America, not communist China, where we can voice our opinions.
BLITZER: I totally agree. I totally agree. I'm not saying that I disagree, but just I'm trying to pinpoint where your criticism of the media comes and let me give you a quote from the book, "Objection," that you write, "One celebrity enters the courtroom and becomes a factor in the process, there is a radical sea change and unequal treatment under the law is the result."
Are you suggesting here that the Michael Jackson verdict was not just?
GRACE: Yes.
BLITZER: You're still outraged...
GRACE: I'm not suggesting, I'm outright saying it. I'm not suggesting it.
BLITZER: The not guilty verdict, you're outraged by that.
GRACE: I'm saying that I don't believe it was a fair verdict. I don't believe it took into account the stories of not one, not two, but three young men who virtually told the same story separated in time and space.
I think the jury was just happy to be this close to Michael Jackson. That's what I got, not only from their verdict after a cold hard look at the evidence myself, but from their press conference after. Hello. Let's keep in mind it wasn't but a couple of hours that passed before they all jetted to New York to go to Network Studios to tell their story. You know what, it wasn't their story to tell. The story to be told was what was told in the courtroom.
BLITZER: All right. I'm going to take a quick break, Nancy. We have a lot more to talk about.
More of my conversation with Nancy Grace, coming up after this short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back.
We're continuing our conversation with Nancy Grace of Court TV and CNN "HEADLINE NEWS." She's the author of a brand new book, a new best seller entitled "Objection, How High-Priced Defense Attorneys, Celebrity Defendants and a 24/7 Media Have Hijacked Our Criminal Justice System."
You said this on June 13th, Nancy, you said, referring to Michael Jackson, "He has to be guilty on one of the molestation counts." Do you regret saying that?
GRACE: No.
I was asked then what I think the jury was going to do and it was very clear that I, along with all of the other legal experts, were trying to give our best prediction on what we thought this jury would do.
Listen, Wolf, if the kitchen's too hot, get out. When people ask you to make a legal prediction, that's what you do based on the evidence. It happens every day in every courtroom in America. Luckily, so far, I've been right most of the time, but I've been wrong a couple of times. This time in the Robert Blake case and also Jennifer Wilbanks managed to pull the wool over my eyes, too. So, you know what? You give it your best shot.
BLITZER: Tell us why you're so passionate about defending what you call victims, because there's a personal story here involved. GRACE: You know, Wolf, you're right. And you know, I never told the story the whole time I was prosecuting over a decade, but ten years in inner city Atlanta, with violent crimes, I never wanted some cookie defense attorney to grab ahold of my life story and somehow use it to try to recuse me off a criminal prosecution.
Wolf, when I was in college studying to be a Shakespearian literature professor, just shortly before my wedding, my fiancee Keith was murdered; random violence by a man he didn't know for the $35 in his wallet. And I've got to tell you, Wolf, it nearly destroyed me. My world exploded. I didn't know what I was going to do. I dropped out of school, I couldn't eat, I couldn't drink, I couldn't think. I moved back in with my parents and finally decided to go back to school, but to law school to become a felony prosecutor and a victims' rights advocate.
BLITZER: You believe in the system though, the criminal justice system in the United States?
GRACE: Wolf, I don't just believe in it. I love it. I became a prosecutor to try to help other crime victims like myself. But Wolf, when I look back on it, what I realized is that they're the ones that cured me. Victim by victim by victim that I was actually able to help in some small way put my heart and my soul and my mind back together again.
Do I believe in it? Wolf, that's what cured me: our justice system. And I take it personally when I see lady justice take a kick in the teeth. I don't like it.
BLITZER: And you believe it did that in the Michael Jackson trial, in the Blake trial, as well?
GRACE: Yes, I do. Wolf, don't get me wrong. There have been many cases that I thought were unjust prosecutions. For instance, in the Ohio sniper case, I did not think the sniper should get the death penalty. I think he's mentally disturbed. I thought the Martha Stewart case was a couple of federal prosecutors trying to get a trophy celebrity defendant.
So I don't always take the side of the state. And I refuse to be paid for outside appearances. I don't want to be some hired gun that always takes the side of the prosecution, because I don't feel that way. What I feel like, Wolf, is getting verdicts that speak the truth about the facts a jury has heard.
BLITZER: You're donating some of the profits from your book to a good cause. Tell our viewers what that is.
GRACE: National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. And while I rejoice that they found this 11-year-old little Boy Scout Brennan, I'm reminded at this joyous moment of so many children that are not found. And NCMA, National Center for Missing and Exploited Children does so much to help children that I can't in good conscience have so many blessings and not give back to them.
BLITZER: Nancy Grace's book is called "Objection." It's a hot...
GRACE: Hey, wolf, please pronounce it correctly. "Objection!"
BLITZER: We're out of time right now, but if you want to see more of Nancy Grace, here's a good idea for our viewers, 8:00 p.m. Eastern every weeknight Nancy Grace on CNN Headline News. Thanks, Nancy.
GRACE: Bye, Wolf.
BLITZER: When we come back, the Reverend Billy Graham's last U.S. crusade. Why he's heading to the "Big Apple" for his big good- bye. First though as part of CNN's industry series "Then and Now," CNN's Tommy Mukabo has the story of Desmond Tutu.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DESMOND TUTU, FRM. SECRETARY GENERAL SOUTH AFRICAN COUNCIL OF CHURCHES: Our struggle, is great. We'll succeed, because it is a just struggle.
TOMMY MUKABO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: During the dog days of apartheid in South Africa, he was the voice of hope.
TUTU: That this must be the last of its kind.
MUKABO: Archbishop Tutu always claimed he was a leader by default, but he used his faith to inspire black South Africans to fight for freedom peacefully. In honor of his battle against apartheid, Tutu won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1984. And when apartheid crumbled ten years later, President Nelson Mandela appointed Tutu to lead the Truth and Reconciliation Commission to help South Africa deal with the crimes committed during apartheid.
TUTU: We must face this ghastly past and not pretend it never happened.
MUKABO: Often the truth of the past was painful, even reducing Tutu to tears.
Now age 73, Tutu is still outspoken on issues around the world from war to crimes committed in the name of God.
TUTU: God is not a Christian nor is god a Muslim. All, all are God's children.
MUKABO: Despite a battle with prostate cancer in 1997, Tutu continues to inspire nonviolent political change around the world and works with the peace center that bears his name.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
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BLITZER: He's the country's best known evangelist who made his name with fire and brimstone preaching that's reached millions of people around the world. So at first glance, New York City might seem like an unlikely choice for the Reverend Billy Graham's swan song crusade. Our Mary Snow explains why it's not.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Far from the Bible Belt, deep in Brooklyn, they call themselves "The Faithful Few." By few, they mean 1500 on a Tuesday night, a tiny fraction of the Sunday congregation. Church leaders say it's part of a rapidly growing Evangelical movement that is being redefined.
REV. A.R. BERNARD, CHRISTIAN CULTURAL CENTER: We think primarily of white, right wing Christians.
SNOW: But at the Christian Cultural Center, you'll find.
BERNARD: A very multicultural, multiethnic body of 24,000 members.
SNOW: 24,000 members in a church started in a store front. It's so big, it even has its own restaurant. The congregation's growth is why Pastor A.R. Bernard says he is so excited about Billy Graham's visit. And it's why he played a role in getting the Reverend Graham to visit New York.
BERNARD: He will, in essence, bring the spotlight on something that has been taking place here in the city over the past 20 years. .
SNOW: Why Billy Graham? He says because of his focus on religion. The message the 86-year-old Graham says he will stick to.
REV. BILLY GRAHAM: I'm going talk about the gospel of Christ. And I'm going to refuse to answer questions on subjects maybe 20 years ago I would have answered.
SNOW: That means steering clear of politics and issues like gay rights, something other evangelical leaders have loudly denounced. Graham says his message will be similar to one delivered in New York in 1957 as he rose to prominence.
GRAHAM: There is no other way accept by the way of that cross.
SNOW: His scheduled crusade of several weeks stretched to four months. At the time, he was quoted as referring to New York as a stronghold of Satan. Now, he sites diversity as part of the reason why he's returning.
GRAHAM: Here in New York, not only is there a mixture of ethnic backgrounds, but there's a mixture of the problems of the world.
SNOW: That includes terrorism and the attacks of September 11. Graham acknowledged it influenced the religious leaders who invited him to the city, including Reverend Bernard.
BERNARD: So in his closing out his ministry and his service to God, what better place than to come back to where it all started: and that is New York City.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SNOW: Billy Graham will be preaching at a three-day event starting Friday in Queens that's expected to attract hundreds of thousands of people -- Wolf.
BLITZER: All right. Mary Snow in New York, we'll be watching that as well. Thanks very much.
This note to our viewers. Tomorrow, my exclusive interview with the Vice President Dick Cheney. That airs on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS 5:00 pm Eastern. Until then, thanks very much for joining us. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.
"LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" starts right now. Lou is standing by in New York -- Lou.
END
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