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U.S. Iraq Policy; Four Car Bombs Kill at Least 17 in Baghdad; Afghan Fighting; Senator Joe Biden Interview

Aired June 23, 2005 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ANNOUNCER: Live from CNN Center, this is YOUR WORLD TODAY.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: And any who say that we've lost this war or that we're losing this war are wrong. We are not.

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ZAIN VERJEE, CNN ANCHOR: No guarantees. No timetables. No backing down. The U.S. defense secretary insists the U.S. must stay the course in Iraq as a wave of relentless violence killed scores of Iraqis and raises doubts among U.S. lawmakers.

JIM CLANCY, CNN ANCHOR: Closing in. Afghan commanders believe they may have surrounded a pair of high-level Taliban commanders in the Afghan hinderlands. An exclusive look at the fight on the Afghan- Pakistani border and why some U.S. commanders are not happy with what's happening there.

And then...

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Prince William of Wales.

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VERJEE: Prince Williams joins the class of 2005. What's next for Britain's heir to the throne?

It is 12:00 p.m. in Washington, 8:00 p.m. in Baghdad. I'm Zain Verjee.

CLANCY: I'm Jim Clancy. And welcome to our viewers in the United States and throughout the world. This is YOUR WORLD TODAY.

VERJEE: Your window to the world here on CNN International.

CLANCY: More explosions in Baghdad. More contention in Washington.

VERJEE: That's what leads our coverage today. It's been a very violent day in Iraq as insurgents show new determination and ingenuity.

CLANCY: And, at the same time, in Washington, heated questions about the administration's Iraq policy and whether it's working.

CLANCY: Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld says setting a pullout date would throw a lifeline to terrorists, while half a world away those terrorists are engaging in unrelenting violence.

Our coverage begins with Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon and Jennifer Eccleston in Baghdad.

Jamie, let's begin with you. Rumsfeld not prepared to set any timetables.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Zain. He faced some very tough questioning from members of Congress, particularly members of the minority Democratic Party on Capitol Hill questioning him about just how well things are going in Iraq.

Senator Carl Levin referred to what he called a repetitious bugle, saying that simply things are going well and the U.S. needs to stay the course, and questioning whether or not they needed to make some adjustments in the policy. But perhaps the sharpest questioning came from Massachusetts' Democrat, Senator Ted Kennedy, who accused Rumsfeld of mismanagement.

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SEN. EDWARD KENNEDY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: Secretary Rumsfeld, as you know, we are in serious trouble in Iraq. And this war has been consistently and grossly mismanaged. And we are now in a seemingly intractable quagmire.

Our troops are dying, and there really is no end in sight. And the American people, I believe, deserve leadership worthy of the sacrifices that our fighting forces have made. And they deserve the real facts. And I regret to say that I don't believe that you have provided either.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCINTYRE: Well, Rumsfeld took a deep breath, called that quite a statement and then launched into a vigorous response, first saying that there was no one at the table with him. And he's flanked by all the top military commanders who agreed with Senator Kennedy's assessment that Iraq is a quagmire and that there was no end in sight.

He continued to cite what was been progress in building the Iraqi security forces and particularly the political progress which the U.S. military commanders believe ultimately success will hinge upon. And again, he stated that it would be a serious mistake to make any kind of timetable or deadline for the withdrawal of U.S. troops. That, he said, would only send a lifeline to the terrorists.

VERJEE: Jennifer Eccleston, in Baghdad, Defense Department officials saying, look, the insurgency is really at the same level. What's the reality on the ground as you see it, as Iraqis see it in Baghdad? There have been a terrible spate of bombings there. JENNIFER ECCLESTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Zain. Well, the present reality is that the violence shows no sign of abating.

There were four early morning car bomb blasts in the busy Karada (ph) commercial district of central Baghdad. That left 17 people dead and 68 others wounded. The attacks targeted two Shiite mosques and an Iraqi police patrol where three police officers were killed. Another blast took place outside of a public bath house, and a fifth car bomb was discovered, but it was diffused by the Iraqi police.

Of course those explosions come just hours after at least 18 people were killed on Wednesday in five blasts. All car bombs in mainly Shiite districts of Baghdad. Over 46 people were wounded.

Now, the police say the attacks are the work of foreign insurgents who are targeting the majority Shiites, pitting them against the minority Sunnis, increasing the chance here of sectarian violence. Of course the bombs go off today amidst an operation here in Baghdad called Operation Lightning, which is specifically targeted to stem the flow of those car bombs and to stem the flow of insurgent activity in the capital city.

Also today, the al Qaeda group in Iraq said on an Internet posting that a senior Saudi militant, Abdullah Mohammed al-Rashud (ph), was killed in fighting with U.S. forces in Al Qaim near the vast Syrian border with Iraq. Of course al Qaeda in Iraq is led by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. Al-Rashud (ph) is one of three Saudi fugitives at large from a list of 26 senior al Qaeda militants accused of carrying out attacks in the Saudi kingdom.

Now, 50 insurgents were believed to have been killed in Operation Spear, which was a Marine-led operation in the city of Karabilah near Al Qaim. According to the U.S. Marines that led, they found a number of non-Iraqi passports in a number of buildings. They say that the Saudi militant could have been one of those. They found a number of Saudi passports among those -- Zain.

VERJEE: Jennifer Eccleston, just a moment ago, Jamie McIntyre talked about Senator Carl Levin, saying that really a lot of lawmakers say, look, there's no military solution really to the insurgency, and the key is the political process. Is it moving forward, are Sunnis there being incorporated into that process?

ECCLESTON: Well, one of the most concrete efforts where we're seeing progress in getting the Sunnis on board is with the constitutional drafting committee. Originally, there were just two Sunnis on that. And they've agreed now to boost that number to 25.

There'll be a meeting this weekend where they will decide which of the 25 names that Sunni leaders have put forth will become voting members. There will be 15 voting members. The other 10 will be just advisers.

Now, the 15 voting members will bring them up to par with approximately the Kurdish representation on that drafting committee. Of course that constitution is meant to be drafted by August 15, and they're meant to vote on it in the fall, in October -- Zain.

VERJEE: Jennifer Eccleston in Baghdad. Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon. Thanks so much.

We're going to bring you a lot more on this. Coming up at the half-hour, we're going to be talking to U.S. Senator Joe Biden, a leading critic in the U.S. Senate on U.S. Iraq policy.

CLANCY: United Nations human rights experts say the U.S. has stalled on numerous requests to check on the conditions of terror suspects being held at the Navy base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, as well as at facilities in Iraq and in Afghanistan. They also say there are reliable reports that suspected detainees have been tortured at Guantanamo. A spokesman for the U.S. government says the U.N. request for access is still under review.

Afghan officials say more than 100 insurgents have been killed in a three-day operation in southern Afghanistan. And a pair of well known Taliban leaders are believed to be surrounded by Afghan and U.S. forces in the region. Afghan officials believe the two senior commanders for Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar are thought to serve as links between the Taliban and Osama bin Laden.

According to some reports, militants are crossing into Afghanistan from neighboring Pakistan. Officials on both sides of that border have pledged to cooperate in the hunt for insurgents. But as Pentagon Correspondent Barbara Starr reports, conditions on the ground where she had a view raised some serious questions about that.

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BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): On top of a 7,000-foot mountain peak in Afghanistan, U.S. soldiers suddenly scramble less than two miles from the border with Pakistan.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Incoming?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, that's a -- that's a rocket.

STARR: Under attack from unknown insurgents, the threat is instant and can be lethal.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's probably not the last rocket we're gong to take.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go ahead and put your...

STARR: CNN was given exclusive access to the U.S. troops and Afghan militiamen patrolling these mountains which were long a safe heaven for Taliban and al Qaeda fighters. These troops are not poking around mountain caves looking for Osama bin Laden. This is a military offensive against insurgents. The base took seven rockets, U.S. troops fired their mortars in return.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fire.

STARR: This rocket attack is reality on the Pakistani border. U.S. troops on this front line told us they simply do not trust the Pakistanis to keep infiltrators from coming into Afghanistan to attack. A U.S. Special Forces commander at this fire base would not go on camera, but told us that at certain border checkpoints the Pakistanis turn a blind eye to insurgents. Another senior U.S. military commander on the border told CNN he no longer tells the Pakistanis ahead of time when his men are launching operations, fearing they could be compromised.

And U.S. troops are seeing a disturbing new pattern they say indicates a network of support still exists inside Pakistan for these fighters.

CAPT. BRANDON TEAGUE, U.S. ARMY: Really in the past four, five months, they're -- they've been well equipped. They have standardized equipment, AK-47s, grenades, communication equipment, signaling equipment.

STARR: Colonel Patrick Donahue is the 82nd Airborne Brigade commander in these mountains. He tell us his troops have killed large numbers of insurgents and are constantly on the offense.

COL. PATRICK DONAHUE, U.S. ARMY: The ones on the border are guerillas. They're well organized and trained. They have standard kit (ph). They all are well-armed, and they know what to do with the weapons.

STARR: Commanders here say recent intelligence indicates gatherings of up to 300 young Islamic men at radical schools in Pakistan. They are urged to join the jihad and fight in Afghanistan.

DONAHUE: Yes, that type of enemy we're facing is more of the insurgent cell, operating in the interior. These are the ones that are bombing -- burning the schools and dropping the hand grenades.

STARR: The troops say that these Afghan forces that travel with them throughout the mountains are fierce fighters who know every mountain nook where al Qaeda still may be lurking.

(on camera): U.S. Special Forces continue to believe that Osama bin Laden is hiding somewhere in the mountains of Pakistan, which lie just behind me. But it is the flow of foreign fighters and other insurgents that has U.S. troops most concerned along this dangerous border.

Barbara Starr, CNN, along the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan.

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VERJEE: Pakistan vehemently denies reports it's allowing insurgents to cross its border into Afghanistan. We talked earlier to the spokesman for Pakistan's military.

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MAJ. GEN. SHAUKAT SULTAN, SPOKESMAN, PAKISTANI ARMY: It is in our interest to check any terrorist entering Pakistan. The reality is that some of the youth is taken away from here. They are trained inside Afghanistan, and they are sent back for terrorist acts inside Pakistan.

Now, who is training these people is the question, and that need to be seen. As regards to inside Pakistan, I do not totally deny that such activity hasn't (INAUDIBLE) to zero. There will certainly be some activity taking place somewhere in very small numbers. But as a policy, the government of Pakistan has come down very strictly and very fiercely against any such activity where terrorist training is taking place.

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VERJEE: That same view expressed in a phone conversation between the presidents of Pakistan and Afghanistan. Pervez Musharraf assured Hamid Karzai that Pakistan is doing everything possible to shore up the border.

CLANCY: Turning now to Asia, where North and South Korea agree they want a peaceful end to the region's nuclear crisis. They just can't agree on when that's going to come.

The country's ended a high-level meeting today without setting a date for the north to return to six-party talks. Both sides say a nuclear-free peninsula is the ultimate goal, but North Korea says friendlier treatment from the United States is a must before those talks can resume.

VERJEE: One a former president, the other a surprised contestant.

CLANCY: A live report from Tehran is next as Iran's two presidential hopefuls prepare to face each other in a runoff after no candidate won a majority in the country's election last week.

Stay with us.

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CLANCY: Welcome back. You're watching an hour of world news on CNN International.

The people of Iran preparing to vote again. A presidential runoff between Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. No candidate won an a majority in last week's election.

Matthew Chance is in Tehran right now for Friday's vote. He joins us.

Matthew, how is it shaping up there in this election race?

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, campaigning has been brought to an end on a day, this day, before the actual people of Iran go to the polls on Friday morning here, local time, in the second and final round of the presidential elections in the Islamic republic. It's actually turning into quite a close race, perhaps one of the closest races in political history, in recent years here in Iran between candidates, one of them a relatively well-known figure, a sort of leading conservative cleric here, the other one the current mayor of Tehran who is seen very much within the context of the Iranian political establishment as being a strict religious hard-liner.

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CHANCE (voice-over): He's emerged as the hard-liner's choice in a country already dominated by Islamic hard-liners. But in an election that's exposed Iran's growing gap between rich and poor, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Tehran mayor and son of a blacksmith, is seen by many as pious and uncorrupted.

Many like Abbas, a mechanic, "He belongs to the same class, as we do," he says, "the most vulnerable sector of society. He's just like us."

It's not a view widely held in the coffee shops of Tehran's affluent north. Relatively rich Iranians come here to escape strict social rules, like women smoking in public or unmarried couples meeting.

Here there's growing concern, Vaheed (ph) tells me. "The ultra conservative, Ahmadinejad, would put a stop to all of this. He would set us back 10 to 12 years," he told me. "There would be oppression and much more social pressure. Our freedoms would be taken back," he says.

But for many disillusioned voters, the choice is hardly better. Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani is a 70-year-old cleric known as a pragmatic conservative. But after two previous terms as president, lacking credibility among the reform hungry youth, by far, Iran's biggest voting bloc.

In this campaign video he's shown answering sensitive questions from young Iranians about dress codes, relationships and jobs. It's unprecedented campaign stuff in Iran.

This girls says she's lost all faith and trust in politicians and has low expectations of the next president, whoever it is. It was a staged challenge to Rafsanjani for the camera. But as Iran votes for a new leader, the issue for many is painfully real.

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CHANCE: And Jim, for many Iranians this election has become far more about just selecting a new president. To many people we've spoken to here, it means the course of the future direction of reforms in this country.

Back to you. CLANCY: Well, unemployment and other issues very much real on the ground there where you are in Tehran. Outside, the international community is really worried about Iraq's -- Iran's intention to develop enrichment for uranium. And on this matter, is there any difference between these two candidates?

CHANCE: Well, that's a good question, because you're absolutely right. As far as the international community is concerned, it's Iran's nuclear program and what it intends to do with the technology it says it's trying to develop that is the main issue of concern for whatever president takes over in a few days from now when the results are in.

In Iran itself, though, domestically, the issue hasn't really been much of a part of the campaign at all. And I think one of the reasons for that is that pretty much everyone in this country, with a few exceptions perhaps, are united in believing that Iran has the right develop this nuclear technology for peaceful purposes, which is, of course, what Iran says it intends to do.

And there's no real difference in substance between the political candidates, the presidential candidates, on that issue. All of them are saying they will push forward their right, they say, to develop nuclear technology. There may be an issue when it comes to the style of how that's pushed forward, this concern that the more hard-line -- the more hard-line figure, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, would be more sort of blatant and blunt about doing that -- doing it. But he'd do it the same as Rafsanjani would, were he elected -- Jim.

CLANCY: Matthew Chance, reporting live there from Tehran. Thanks, Matthew.

VERJEE: Let's take a look now at some of the stories making new in the United States.

Former Ku Klux Klan leader Edgar Ray Killen has been sentenced to a total of 60 years in prison for masterminding the 1964 killings of three civil rights workers. The 80-year-old Killen was convicted earlier this week on three counts of manslaughter 41 years after the crimes were committed.

It's getting to be fire season in southern California, the time of year when wildfires race through bone dry brush. The small town of Morongo Valley is feeling it. Residents fled their homes as a fire moved along both sides of a highway. Several homes have been destroyed.

Investigators say the United States should upgrade fire standards for skyscrapers and develop new materials that can better protect them during the fire. Government engineers released their report on Thursday on the collapse of the World Trade Center buildings on September 11. The U.S. National Institute of Standards and Technology doesn't have the authority to change building codes.

CLANCY: All right. A look at the markets and the latest business news coming up next here on YOUR WORLD TODAY. VERJEE: And normally the family is just part of the crowd, but in this case they were also the center of attention. We'll tell you about a royal graduation coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CLANCY: Time for a check on what's moving the markets in the U.S.

(STOCK MARKET REPORT)

VERJEE: We're going to update our top stories just ahead.

CLANCY: And then, which country is more terrorist friendly than Afghanistan under the Taliban? We'll have details of a classified CIA report.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VERJEE: Welcome back to YOUR WORLD TODAY on CNN International. I'm Zain Verjee.

CLANCY: I'm Jim Clancy. These are the stories that are making headlines around the world. First to Afghanistan, officials say more than 100 militants have now been killed in heavy fighting over the past three days. Afghan and U.S. forces surrounding a camp where two senior commanders for Taliban leader Mola Mohammed Omar (ph) are believed hiding.

VERJEE: Four car bombs in Baghdad have killed at least 17 people and wounded dozens more. A fifth bomb, found near a Shia mosque, was diffused. And an Islamic Web site claims that one of Saudi Arabia's most wanted terrorists was killed near the Iraq/Syria border. The statement was signed by terrorist mastermind Abu Musab al Zarqawi.

CLANCY: At a Senate hearing, U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld says it would be a terrible mistake to set deadlines for a pull-out from Iraq. Rumsfeld says announcing a departure date would throw a lifeline to terrorists. Senate and House panels are grilling top defense officials about their long-term strategy for Iraq.

VERJEE: One of the major hurdles for Iraq's recovery is the ongoing violence gripping the nation. Now, a grim new report from the CIA warns that insurgents there may plan to use deadly skills well beyond Iraqi borders.

David Ensor reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID ENSOR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The new classified CIA reports says Islamist terrorists are likely to take urban combat techniques like car bombings, kidnappings and assassinations that they are perfecting in Iraq to their home countries: Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and try to destabilize those governments. According to officials who read it, the report says Iraq may turn out to be an even more effective training ground for terrorists than Afghanistan was under the Taliban -- Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda ran training camps there. Those terrorists could also end up in Europe or the U.S.

The White House spokesman said the U.S. prefers to fight the extremists in Iraq.

SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: That's why it's so important that we succeed in Iraq, because when we succeed in Iraq and Afghanistan, that will be -- those will be major blows to the terrorists and their ideology that they seek to spread.

ENSOR: U.S. officials say they have captured Saudis, Syrians, Egyptians and others with the insurgents in Iraq. The threat they pose was highlighted by CIA director Porter Goss in recent testimony.

PORTER GOSS, CIA DIRECTOR: Islamic extremists are exploiting the Iraqi conflict to recruit new anti-U.S. jihadists. Those jihadists who survive will leave Iraq experienced and focused on acts of urban terrorism. They represent a potential pool of context to build transnational terror cells, groups and networks in Saudi Arabia, Jordan and other countries.

DENNIS PLUCHINSKY, FORMER STATE DEPT. ANALYST: There are a lot of seeds of potential conflict, especially in Western Europe and also in the Middle East, of people going back and setting up cells. In other words, the true impact of Iraq probably won't be felt for maybe four, maybe five or six years.

ENSOR (on camera): U.S. officials say the kind of urban warfare techniques they're learning from Iraqi insurgents were not learned in mostly rural Afghanistan. And they say the Iraq veterans could one day pose a threat worldwide.

David Ensor, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CLANCY: Of course, the White House has been defending its Iraq policy throughout the day. U.S. Vice President Dick Cheney is going to be talking with our own Wolf Blitzer on Thursday. For our national viewers, you can watch that at 5:00 p.m. You can catch the full interview with Dick Cheney, the vice president, on CNN International, at 2100 Greenwich Mean Time.

VERJEE: Up next on YOUR WORLD TODAY, we're going to take a look at the top stories in the U.S.

CLANCY: Also, had a takeover attempt with a difference. A Chinese company making a bid in the United States. Is it a sign of changing times? We're going to explore that in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) VERJEE: Welcome back. British Prime Minister Tony Blair has laid out his priorities for Britain's six-month presidency of the European Union. It came with a morning. Mr. Blair called on the E.U. to modernize or risk failure. He issued the challenge in a speech to the European parliament in Brussels.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TONY BLAIR, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: It is time to give ourselves a reality check, to receive the wake-up call. The people are blowing the trumpets around the city walls. Are we listening? Have we the political will to go out and meet them so that they regard our leadership collectively as part of the solution and not part of the problem?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VERJEE: Mr. Blair also warns that Asian economies could leave Europe behind if it fails to reform.

$18.5 billion, in cash. That's how much China's third-largest oil producer is bidding for the U.S. company Unocal. If that deal were to go through, it would be the biggest yet in a wave of U.S. acquisitions by Chinese companies.

As Stan Grant reports, it would also be one that is going to almost certainly meet obstacles in Washington.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

STAN GRANT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: A booming economy, choking factories, traffic jamming the roads. China is thirsty for oil, and will pay dearly to get it. State-controlled China National Offshore Oil Corporation, or CNOOC, setting new corporate records, making an $18.5 billion bid for America's Unocal. It is already ringing alarm bells.

ROBERT MILLER, FINANCIAL JOURNALIST: I think the first you're going to see is an outcry from a number of people on the political front and calls for inquires.

GRANT: There are already cries in Washington for the Bush administration to consider blocking the bid. It marks potentially another flashpoint for U.S./China trade relations, already soured are the textile imports, and pressure on China to revalue its currency.

And watching on, Chevron. It has an agreement to buy Unocal for $16 billion, a deal approved by U.S. antitrust authorities, now facing a bidding war. As CNOOC launches what would be the biggest overseas corporate buyout by a Chinese firm.

JASON FEER, ARGUS MEDIA: There have been talk that they were prepared to go higher than that, and what that says, is they might have left room for counteroffer if Chevron steps up its bid.

CNOOC is China's The corps rate muscle joins china diplomatic offensive. It ranks only behind the United States as the world's biggest oil consumer. Raising to begin filling its oil reserve. It's prepared to do deals with rogue states to get on it needs.

GRANT: CNOOC is China's third biggest oil firm. It wants to boost its standing. It's also eying Unocal's extensive assets in Asia.

The corporate muscle joins China's diplomatic offensive to keep the oil pumping. China's oil imports have doubled in the past five years. It ranks only behind the United States as the world's biggest oil consumer. It's ready to begin filling its first strategic oil reserve, and stockpile 100 million barrels of oil. It is prepared to do deals with rogue states to get what it needs.

DAVID ZWEIG, POL. ANALYST: Sudan, Iran, stat's that clearly the United States has said their behavior is inappropriate and should be sanctioned. China is there, with good ties with these states and to a certain extent protecting them.

GRANT: The U.S., the world's superpower, and its emerging rival China, facing off in politics and business for control of one the world's most precious resources.

Stan Grant, CNN, Beijing.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CLANCY: We're going to check in on Capitol Hill. The Senate Armed Services Committee has been listening to testimony this day. General John Abizaid their testifying before the committee. Rather contentious debate. What's the state of the conflict in Iraq right now.

Joining us now, the ranking Democrat on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Senator Joe Biden of Delaware joining us.

Senator Biden, what is your take on what you have heard today here on Capitol Hill?

SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN (D), DELAWARE: Well, I haven't heard anything today. I've been in other meetings, but I was meeting with Prime Minister Jaafari, the prime minister of Iraq, in a private meeting here.

I just got back from my fifth trip to Iraq. There's some progress being made, but the fact of the matter is things have gotten, from a security standpoint, worse, not better. We still can prevail, be have to make some radical changes, or significant changes, and most of all, we have to level with the American people, and tell them, look, this is going to take at least another two years to train up Iraqi forces and see this government mature, and we should tell the American people that so we don't lose their support.

CLANCY: Anyone watching the polls knows that the president's ratings have declined. U.S. confidence -- the confidence of the U.S. public has declined not only on the war in Iraq, but on the war on terror, and yet the White House has consistently put out a different message. This is the vice president speaking just a short time ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DICK CHENEY, VICE PRES. OF THE UNITED STATES: I think they're in the last throes, if you will, of the insurgency.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CLANCY: The last throes of the insurgency, I mean, what is wrong with that message in your view?

BIDEN: Simply not true. Either he's listening to his own counsel or he's not listening at all. As I spoke to all of the generals on the ground in Iraq, I didn't find a single operative soldier, who said either, one, we can't win. They all think we can still win. But number two, that in fact it's in its last throes. The insurgency's actually, in actual terms, gotten stronger.

Now the mix has changed. There's more jihadists, the Al Qaeda types, coming across the border from Syria, who are more lethal. They're the ones with the car bombs, and blowing people and blowing themselves up. And there has been some progress with the old Baathists, the Sunnis. There's some progress there.

But the net balance is more people are dying. There are more of these major explosions. They're becoming more sophisticated, require another solution. And again, I don't know anybody on the ground in Iraq, wearing an American uniform, thinks that they're on their last legs.

CLANCY: Military recruitments are certainly down. And I was impressed by a story I read in the newspaper the other day, quoting a mother who said, "Why would I send my son to Iraq?"

You are one of the only politicians I know on Capitol Hill that has a son serving in Iraq. Is it fair for people...

BIDEN: No, he's not serving in Iraq.

CLANCY: Is it fair for people to ask the questions I hear. Where are the architects of this war? Where are there families? Are they going to war in Iraq?

BIDEN: Let me be very clear, my son is not serving in Iraq; he's serving in the National Guard. And the units are likely to be called to Iraq. He is not now in Iraq, nor has he been. He was in Bosnia with the Attorney General's Office of the United States, but he's not in Iraq.

But The bottom line is the same. I think the mother is saying, don't send my son to Iraq, why would I do that, is not merely because of the danger posed to American forces, but because the American people are beginning to conclude that Iraq is not winnable. I think the reason the American people are leaving is they don't think we have a plan to succeed. They think it's in vain, and that's why it's so important for the president to address the country, tell them what's at stake, tell them how long it's going to take -- it's going to take well over a year -- but that we have a plan, and lay it out, why we can win. But we can not -- quote -- "stay the course," with no significant change and tell the American people we're winning. We're smarter than that.

CLANCY: Well, the U.S. does need intelligence, and there's much ado about ado about what is going on in Guantanamo Bay. You have to realize some of these prisoners do have the information. Lives can be saved by putting pressure to bear on them -- and I mean a lot of pressure here -- in order to save lives.

BIDEN: That's true.

CLANCY: People talk about the Guantanamo Bay being closed, but really, is there an alternative?

BIDEN: No there's no alternative. There may be an alternative to Guantanamo Bay. The alternative we need actually is we need a plan. We need to decide, as the president himself has said, you can not hold people indefinitely. In the past, when we held people who were enemy combatants, when the armistice was signed and the war was over, they got to go home.

Now we acknowledge this war on terror is not going to end in anybody's near-term memory here; it's going to be a long time. So we, the nation of laws, can not be seen around the world, unless we want to recruit more terrorists than we're defeating in Guantanamo -- we can't be there to say, look, we have no plan. There's never going to be a trial. We're going to hold these people indefinitely, probably the rest of their lives. That is not an answer.

This is a different war, but we need to come up with a construct as to how we're going to do this. That's why I've called for an independent commission, like the 9/11 Commission, take the politics out of this, and come up with a plan to deal with the new realities that exist in this world and war on terror.

CLANCY: Senator, Joe Biden, a frequent critic of the administration, I want to thank you for taking the time to talk with us.

BIDEN: But I believe we can still do this.

CLANCY: All right, senator.

VERJEE: All right, Senator. All right, let's check some other headlines making headlines around the United States. The Supreme Court has ruled that local governments may seize a person's home or business, even against their will, for private economic development. The 5-4 ruling represents a defeat for some Connecticut residents whose homes are slated for destruction to make room for an office complex.

The Pentagon has hired a private marketing firm to compile date on some high school and all-college students. The new database includes personal information, such as ethnicity Social Security numbers and e-mail addresses. It's meant to help in the recruiting process, but privacy advocates say using databases marketers for military recruitment is inappropriate.

The parents of a Dutch teenager held in connection with the disappearance of an Alabama teenager say they believe their son is innocent. Joran Van Der Sloot's parents say that they don't know how to deal with what they call this big nightmare. Meanwhile, there is still no sign of Natalee Holloway, who went missing on May 30th.

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CLANCY: Well, still to come here on YOUR WORLD TODAY, a big day for Britain's brainiest royal.

VERJEE: We're going to see what the future holds for Prince William as he leaves behind the relative quiet of university life. That story's next.

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VERJEE: Usually it's the graduate who's the center of attention. But when your grandmother's the queen and your father's next in line to the British throne, the spotlight isn't entirely on you.

CLANCY: Well, we're talking, of course, about Prince William's graduation from the University of Saint Andrew's in Scotland. Paula Hancocks has more on the young royal's big day and why we may soon be hearing a lot about his personal life.

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PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's a proud moment for any student.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: William Wales.

HANCOCKS: Being heir to the English throne makes you no exception. Prine William received his degree from Saint Andrew's University in Scotland, watched by a proud father and grandmother, better known as Prince Charles and the Queen of England. He's now officially the smartest member of the royal family, walking away with better grades than his father.

But he is also walking away from four years of sanctuary from the media. The press had an agreement to leave William in peace while he was studying, in return for guaranteed photo and interview opportunities. As an ordinary student, he could go and buy a newspaper from the local shop unhindered and unbothered by the press. After his graduation bowl Friday night, that all changes.

DICK ARBITER, QUEEN'S FMR. PRESS SECY: Come Saturday the 25th, the gloves are off and William is out on his own, in terms of the media. And unfortunately, they're going to be hunting him down and looking for him and trying to take photographs of him at every opportunity. HANCOCKS: Media interest is likely to focus on the prince's girlfriend, Kate Middleton, who also graduated from Saint Andrew's Thursday.

ROBERT LACEY, ROYAL BIOGRAPHER: There are no plans for them to be living together, so far as we know, but obviously, it's something that press is going to look for and pry into and that's an obvious area where there are problems ahead.

HANCOCKS: Next week, Prince Williams flies to New Zealand to watch the British Lions rugby tour. While he's there, he will carry out his first social public engagement, representing the queen for the commemoration of the 60th anniversary of the end of the second world war, that one royal duty signaling a major shift Prince Williams's role within the royal family.

Paula Hancocks, CNN, London.

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CLANCY: And that's our report for now.

This reminder, U.S. vice president Dick Cheney going to be talking with our own Wolf Blitzer on Thursday. Catch the full interview with President Bush's right-hand man on the next edition of "BUSINESS INTERNATIONAL" at 1200 Greenwich Mean Time, 5:00 p.m. Eastern for our U.S. viewers.

I'm Jim Clancy.

VERJEE: And I'm Zain Verjee. This is CNN.

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