Return to Transcripts main page
Lou Dobbs Tonight
Defending the War; U.S. Troops Killed; Mad Cow Confirmed; Senator Murray Interview
Aired June 24, 2005 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everybody. Tonight, a rare look inside the secret war against radical Islamist terrorists. An Italian judge accuses the CIA of kidnapping a leading terror suspect in Italy.
Plus, Arizona burning. A huge wildfire continues to expand. It's burned another 15,000 acres in the past 24 hours.
And meat from cloned animals could soon be on your dinner table. The FDA is about to make a critical ruling, but will the meat be safe? A special report.
Our top story is on Iraq. The White House today launched a determined effort to persuade Americans to continue supporting he war in Iraq. President Bush declared terrorists will now drive the United States out of Iraq. At the same time, the White House announced the president will make a prime-time address on Iraq next week.
Suzanne Malveaux reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Mindful of the public relations war over Iraq is not going his way, President Bush is engaged in a highly orchestrated campaign to win American support.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: They figure if they can shake our will and, you know, affect public opinion, then politicians will give up on the mission. I'm not giving up on the mission.
MALVEAUX: While the president and his administration build their case for Americans to stay the course, U.S. and Iraqi casualties continue to mount there from insurgent attacks. Mr. Bush faces increasing pressure from lawmakers to set a timetable to bring the troops home, but he insists that's the wrong approach.
BUSH: Why would you say to the enemy, you know, here's the timetable, just go ahead and wait us out? It doesn't make any sense to have a timetable.
MALVEAUX: The Bush administration strategy to regain American support is to counter the negative images coming out of Iraq with positive images of their own.
BUSH: So we're optimistic.
MALVEAUX: At the White House, Mr. Bush hosted Iraq's prime minister, Ibrahim al-Jaafari. The two leaders spoke of Iraq's military and political progress and the need to continue to work together. Al-Jaafari even opened his remarks in English to emphasize the point.
IBRAHIM AL-JAAFARI, IRAQI PRIME MINISTER: This is not the time to fall back.
MALVEAUX: Tuesday evening, on the one-year anniversary of Iraq's sovereignty, Mr. Bush will deliver a prime-time address to the nation against the backdrop of American troops at Fort Bragg to lay out what the White House calls his strategy for success.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MALVEAUX: And that, too, is part of the administration's strategy to go around the media to take the message directly to the American people -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Suzanne, is there any concern in the White House that even some members of the Republican Party, they're starting to raise questions about the war in Iraq?
MALVEAUX: Well certainly we have heard some Republicans, Republican moderates (ph), Senator Chuck Hagel who was recently very critical of that. The vice president responded saying, well, you know, these are people that have always been critical. And they also say, you know, it's one thing to do this kind of Monday night quarterbacking, if you will.
They believe they don't have that kind of credibility. They put most of the credibility, they say, on the commanders on the ground.
PILGRIM: Thanks, very much. Suzanne Malveaux.
Well, it was a deadly day for the U.S. Marine Corps in Iraq. As many as six troops were killed in a gun and bomb attack, 13 other troops were wounded. More than half the casualties were American servicewomen. Now, the attack took place in the city of Falluja, west of Baghdad.
Jamie McIntyre has our report from the Pentagon -- Jamie.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kitty, this report was the work of -- this attack was the work of a suicide bomber who brought a vehicle by a Marine convoy with a very powerful blast of explosives. And as you said, of the six who are -- Marines who were killed, and one Navy corpsman in that number, at least two of them were women, and possibly as many as four are going to turn out to be female casualties.
And of the 13 wounded, 11 were women. That's because sources say that many of the women were part of what's called the lioness (ph) team. Those are teams of female Marines or sometimes soldiers who are used to -- to search Iraqi civilian women so as not to give offense. They use females to search the females.
It's part of the important role that the military says the women play in helping to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people. But because of that, and because apparently they were hit in this convoy attack, this could turn out to be the deadliest day for U.S. military women in uniform since World War II -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much. Jamie McIntyre.
Well, a rare look tonight inside the secret U.S. war against radical Islamist terrorists. An Italian judge says the CIA captured a terrorist suspect in the street in Milan two years ago. Now, the suspect was believed to be recruiting terrorists for Iraq.
According to the judge, the CIA took the suspect to Aviano Air Base, flew him to Egypt for questioning. The judge has now ordered the arrest of 13 Americans linked to the CIA, and analysts say such CIA operations are common.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALESSANDRO POLITI, STRATEGIC ANALYST: I'm not sure if it's the only operation that has been done by CIA here in Italy, but at least they are recorded publicly, some 20 cases around the world. But generally, with these things, you don't go on record, you do them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: Tonight, neither the CIA nor the U.S. embassy in Rome are commenting about this case.
In other international news, a major flood disaster in China tonight. Flooding and mudslides have killed more than 500 people in China in the past two weeks. More than 100 others are missing, 1.5 million people have been evacuated from their homes. It's one of the deadliest flooding seasons in China in a decade.
And a different kind of natural disaster in Arizona tonight. A huge wildfire north of Phoenix has burned another 15,000 acres over the past 24 hours.
Jonathan Freed has the very latest from the town of Carefree, Arizona -- Jonathan.
JONATHAN FREED, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Kitty. We're approximately 25 miles northeast of downtown Phoenix. And yesterday at this time, the sky was some overcast with smoke. You could even smell that smoke in the air.
Look at a difference 24 hours makes, and some rain that we had last night. Let's swing over to the east.
Look at that ridge line. What you're seeing is about five miles away from my position, Kitty. Yesterday we saw a significant amount of smoke, and you could even make out some fire on that ridge line yesterday. Today we have got blue skies. So there has been some good news for this area here.
Now, if you swing over further to the north and we look at this subdivision over here -- that's the Tonto Hills subdivision -- 200 homes, about 150 people have been evacuated from there a couple of days ago. There's some million-dollar homes over there, Kitty. Those people have now been allowed back in, and no damage was done to that subdivision. That was a main concern.
But here's the key. If you look a little bit further to the north, we're going to show you something that's about 10 miles away. And if you look up, you're going to see this cloud mass that's building up there.
That's happening because the heat is pushing the moisture up, up into the sky. And there was some concern that if that mass reaches a critical state, that it could collapse down upon itself and create a downdraft, and that might spread the fire out. But there is another option, Kitty. It could be that it simply brings some rain down which helps squelch the fire even more.
Right now that hot spot up there is where it's burning. No people around, no threat to life or property as of now.
Kitty, back to you.
PILGRIM: All right, Jonathan. Let's hope for rain. Thanks very much. Jonathan Freed.
Well, an industrial fire has created a very dangerous situation tonight in St. Louis, Missouri. The fire at a propane gas distributor sparked several explosions. It sent fireballs flying into the air. Several vehicles parked nearby exploded into flames.
Now, police have evacuated homes in a five-block area. Officials are monitoring the air quality. And so far, there have been no reports of injury. Officials say the plant was evacuated before the fire spread.
Many of the flames have burned out now, but the fire has sent a huge cloud of black smoke over the St. Louis area. And, of course, we'll keep our eye on this. CNN will have the very latest on this story as it develops.
For the second time in less than two years, a case of mad cow disease has been discovered in this country. The Agriculture Department says the second cow to test positive for the brain-wasting disease has been banned from the food supply.
Christy Feig reports from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTY FEIG, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It was only the second case of mad cow disease confirmed in the U.S.
MIKE JOHANNS, AGRICULTURE SECRETARY: The results confirm the presence of BSE in this animal, an animal that was blocked from entering the food supply.
FEIG: BSE, or spongiform encephalopathy, is a brain-wasting disease that causes mad cow disease in cattle. But in a press conference Friday, the government assured the public that despite the new case, U.S. beef is safe to eat.
JOHANNS: The BSE threat to humans in this country is so remote, that there's a better chance you will get hurt crossing the street to get to the grocery store than by the beef you buy.
FEIG: People cannot get mad cow disease from eating beef, only from eating material from the cow's central nervous system, like the brain and spinal cord. The USDA said this particular cow was unable to walk at slaughter, a symptom of mad cow disease.
By law, any cow in that situation is not allowed to enter the food supply and must be tested. But a cow can be infected with mad cow disease for several years before symptoms appear. So some consumer advocates question whether infected cows could be entering the food supply unknowingly.
Mad cow disease was first discovered in the United Kingdom in 1986. About 150 people have died from the disease worldwide. Most of them in the U.K. during an outbreak in the 1990s.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FEIG: Now, the economic implications of this could be huge. You'll remember back in December of 2003, when the first case of mad cow disease was announced, more than 10 countries banned imports of U.S. beef, costing the industry billions -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much. Christy Feig.
Still to come, the FDA is on the brink of approving meat from cloned farm animals. Will that meat be safe? We'll have a special report next.
And prenatal promise. Genetic testing of unborn babies can identify serious health risks. But testing also raises complex questions of legal liability.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: It's a decision that could forever change the food we eat. The Food & Drug Administration is expected to rule any day now on whether it believes meat from cloned animals is safe for humans to eat.
Lisa Sylvester reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Peggy Sue is a cloned cow. Her offspring may soon end up at the dinner table. Texas biotech company Viagen, which owns Peggy Sue, says meat and milk from cloned livestock or their offspring are just as safe to eat as those from conventional breeding.
SCOTT DAVIS, CO-FOUNDER, VIAGEN INC.: When Dolly was cloned, we went from impossible to possible. So, you know, that was the huge leap. But since then there's been a lot of work at perfecting the technology.
SYLVESTER: Dolly the sheep was the first genetic twin in 1996. Breeders saw the benefit of Xeroxing a prized animal, improved quality of food as lower prices. But Dolly's early death from lung disease raised safety concerns. Many consumer groups say food derived from cloned animals is not safe.
ANDREW KIMBRELL, CENTER FOR FOOD SAFETY: I have a file cabinet full of peer-reviewed scientific studies that say that animal cloning is not only terrible in the suffering it causes the animals, but because of the deformities and the diseases that it causes in these animals, it represents a real hazard to food safety.
SYLVESTER: There's also ethical issues. A Gallup poll found 61 percent of Americans believe cloning animals is morally wrong. And an industry survey found 62 percent of consumers would be reluctant to buy products from cloned animals.
GREGORY JAFFE, CENTER FOR SCIENCE IN THE PUBLIC INTEREST: They link cloned animals with the potential for cloned humans. And so it raises a yuck factor in their minds.
SYLVESTER: The Food & Drug Administration in 2003 found cloned animals pose no risks, but an FDA advisory panel later said more research needs to be done. In the meantime, a voluntary moratorium on animal cloning for food is in place.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: The Food & Drug Administration is working on a final ruling, and that is expected to be released now any day. But the FDA did not want to do an interview, saying it would be premature to discuss the findings -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Lisa, quick question. If this is approved, what about labeling?
SYLVESTER: Well, we're more likely -- not likely to see a label that says "This meat came from a cloned animal." Instead, what we're more likely see is just the opposite, where manufacturers, meat producers that are not using cloning will probably say something to the effect of "This is a clone-free animal" or "This came from a clone-free animal."
We'll have to monitor that -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Yes. I think we will be. Thanks very much. Lisa Sylvester.
Well, this brings us to the subject of tonight's poll. And I think it's something that you'll be very interested in responding to. Would you eat meat from a cloned animal, yes or no? Cast your vote at LouDobbs.com, and we'll bring you the results a little bit later.
The Canadian government is gearing up for an Internet pharmacy crackdown. It's aimed at U.S. consumers.
Now, Canada is set to announce new rules that would make it harder for Americans to buy cheap prescription drugs from Canadian sites. Canada says the wildly popular practice endangers its drug supplies and is unethical. Now, Canada isn't saying what specific measures it might take, but it could prevent Canadian doctors from signing off on prescriptions without examining U.S. patients first.
And one of the most popular prescription medications could soon be off limits to Medicare and Medicaid recipients. The House voted overwhelmingly today to stop government healthcare coverage of Viagra and other impotence drugs. The sponsor of the bill says the move could save taxpayers more than $100 million next year alone. Now, this move comes after the discovery that hundreds of convicted sex offenders were getting impotence drugs under federal health plans.
In other medical news, doctors are under fire in an emotional debate over prenatal care. Sophisticated new tests for pregnant mothers hold out pretty great hope for healthier babies, but they're not perfect. And now some families are blaming doctors when things go wrong.
Bill Tucker reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Nothing in life is risk-free, not even its beginning. The unfortunate reality is not every birth is joyous.
Genetic testing and other prenatal screenings offer the possibility of identifying that risk, but they're not fail safe. The Ohio State Supreme Court is now considering the case of this woman, Lois Coleman. She gave birth to a badly deformed baby girl who died within two weeks of being born. The baby's condition, detectable by ultrasound, went undiagnosed. Had she known she would have made a much different decision.
LOIS COLEMAN, PLAINTIFF: I would have terminated my pregnancy. I gave birth to what I thought was going to be a healthy baby. Instead, I gave birth to a baby who was born without a brain, who had to be put on a feeding tube, who had one nostril, whose eyes were just about touching each other. You know, who was in pain constantly.
TUCKER: In addition to wrongful birth compensation, Lois Coleman is asking for compensation for her pain and suffering. Twenty-seven states now allow wrongful birth lawsuits. The entanglement of law and medicine is not new, but scientific progress is racing past our law. We now have the ability to test for more than 1,000 conditions.
SUSAN CROCKIN, ATTORNEY: I think as we become more sophisticated in what we can test for, the courts are being forced to delve deeper into both the science and the law and decide where our existing legal theories work and where they need to be pushed, both in terms of protecting the patients and protecting the professionals.
TUCKER: Doctors are concerned. They point out that giving birth inherently involves a risk they can't make go away.
DR. JIM SHWAYDER, DENVER HEALTH MEDICAL CENTER: We can't provide 100 percent reassurance of a child being normal, because even after an exhaustive battery of tests, there can be another problem that arises during the pregnancy totally unrelated to genetics or inheritance that we can't otherwise detect.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: And there's no law to help deal with that reality, Kitty. It's just a reminder that life itself is risky.
PILGRIM: It's a really tough issue. Thanks very much. Bill Tucker.
Well, you have probably heard the expression, "penny wise and pound foolish." Earlier this week, that saying got turned on his head. Edmond Knowles (ph), he's a gas station attendant in Flomaton, Alabama. He saved pennies in large oil drums for 38 years.
He's amassed a small fortune. And after collecting over a million pennies, he cashed them in, in a bank, pocketed over $13,000. Knowles broke the previous record set last year. After 38 years of collecting, Knowles (ph) declared, "I don't ever want to see another penny. Perhaps I will collect a few dimes."
Well, coming up, red star rising, how China's move to buy a key U.S. oil company could only strengthen its military might.
And then, the United States Navy is the most powerful in the world, but one Navy historian says it's in crisis. He's our guest ahead.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: It's time now for our "News Makers." And from Washington we are joined by Ron Brownstein, of the "Los Angeles Times"; Bill Schneider, CNN's political -- senior political analyst; and in the New York studio, Jim Ellis, of "BusinessWeek" Magazine.
It's always a pleasure to talk to you guys.
Let's start -- you know, we just did this piece on China's oil and the bid to buy Unocal. Let's start with you, Ron. Where do you fall on this? This is reasonably worrisome, isn't it?
RON BROWNSTEIN, "LA TIMES": Well, you know, I remember the political debate in the late '80s, when the focus was on Japanese acquisition of American assets, real estate, movie studios, and that came and went. What's different now, of course, is we're not really sure what our long-term relationship with China is, whether they are a strategic ally or a strategic competitor, and perhaps even something more ominous than that.
I think from Secretary Snow's comments yesterday before Congress, the administration is not looking forward to having to block this acquisition given everything else we have got in the fire with China. But there is clearly a certain amount of anxiety about it on Capitol Hill and in the country at large.
PILGRIM: Secretary Snow's response reasonably noncommittal, Bill. What do you make of that? And do you see the Bush administration stepping forward?
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST: I don't know that they'll step forward. Of course, you know, the shareholders have to accept it. The amazing thing to me is that it's an all-cash bid, $18.5 million. I mean, my god, the Chevron bid is a mixture of cash and stocks. It really brings to light that China has become an economic powerhouse.
PILGRIM: Well, I guess they have the cash because of the trading situation, right, Jim?
SCHNEIDER: Yes, that's exactly right.
JIM ELLIS, "BUSINESSWEEK": Because of the trade deficit now that we've been running with them, I mean, the Chinese right now are sitting on top of about $230 billion in U.S. Treasury Notes. They're flush with cash, and they've been basically been buying a lot from the Treasury. Now they're going to throw it into hard assets. That's scary because it does remind people of Japan. The difference this time around from Japan in the '80s is that at that time, Japan didn't allow a lot of U.S. businesses to come in and do business there and so, the business community was not behind, you know, continued Japanese investment. Nowadays, I mean, China has become a major market and a major partner for a lot of U.S. multinationals. So, a lot of them are not going to be against that and that puts the president in a very difficult position.
BROWNSTEIN: and Kitty...
PILGRIM: Can you see the company taking -- hang on a sec. -- can you see the company taking a lower bid?
ELLIS: I think it would be very difficult because they've got a fiduciary duty to actually go ahead and try to get the most for the shareholders. What they can use as a figure leaf, however, is that it will be a lot quicker to go ahead and close the Chevron bid, than one that the government might have to say has national security implications.
PILGRIM: That's interesting. Bill, you wanted to say something?
SCHNEIDER: That was Ron.
BROWNSTEIN: I was saying that this really highlights and puts a spotlight on the complexity of our relationship with China. Imagine, if it came to this, if the U.S. government blocks this on national security grounds at the same time that we're leaning on China to try to intervene with North Korea on behalf of the western world to discourage their nuclear program. I mean, it just shows how complex this relationship is, that on the one hand: We see them as someone we want to have as an ally and someone working with us, and on the other hand: Someone that we're still concerned about.
PILGRIM: Yes.
Let's move to the other tough issue of the week and that's definitely Iraq. We saw Donald Rumsfeld up on Capitol Hill taking a lot of heat and yet defending the operation. What do you make of this -- the political movement that seems to be underway, Bill.
SCHNEIDER: Well, the first thing you've got to know is that Americans have turned anti-war and a lot of what's happened this week is in response to that. Our polling shows that 59 percent of Americans, a solid majority, when asked the simple question: Do you favor or oppose the war in Iraq, say they oppose the war in Iraq. It hasn't been a majority until now.
You are seeing Democrats and Republicans responding to that, calling for exit strategies, worrying outloud about the future of American involvement and the president giving a major speech next week, Tuesday night, trying to rally the home front on the war -- for the war in Iraq.
PILGRIM: Yes. Ron?
BROWNSTEIN: Well, the ice is breaking around the debate, Kitty, but I don't think it's completely broken, yet. Since -- I agree with Bill, from the election until very recently, the politician in both parties haven't said much about Iraq. They've been focusing on the domestic agenda, but in this case, they are following public opinion and as doubts have grown, politicians have grown more willing to begin to raise questions.
What really hasn't happened is the development of an alternative strategy. You see Democrats talking about things like requiring the administration to set more milestones, a few talking about setting a -- kind of a date for removing American troops, that the president forcefully rejected today. I do think that it's a very unstable period not only in Iraq, but in the American political debate because we have a lot of anxiety, but few alternatives.
PILGRIM: Jim, what do you think is important for the president to address next week?
ELLIS: I think that basically, he has to show that he, at least, has a grasp of the situation. I think a lot of people think, now, that he's in so deep, that he, basically, can't say: I made a mistake. I think what he's got to do is -- I think the easiest way out of this is to set milestones not for withdraw of U.S. troops, but milestones for the development of a new government there. That's easier to do that saying I'm going to pull out, it also doesn't play into the hands of the insurgents. PILGRIM: Let's talk about something else: With gas prices hitting 60 dollars -- or crude oil hitting $60 a gallon -- a barrel -- excuse me -- today, we're really thinking about energy, a lot and we have some movement on the energy bill. The Senate version: A little bit more on climate change. The House version: A little more towards President Bush's proposals. Where do you think we will go on this and isn't it really reaching a critical juncture now -- Bill?
SCHNEIDER: Well, you would think is, given gas prices, but both sides and the Congress have said: Look, one thing we do know is that nothing in this bill, which will take a long time to work out between the House and Senate, nothing in this bill holds out any hope for short-term relief from high energy prices. It just isn't there.
PILGRIM: And yet, Ron, we're really at a crisis here. I mean, people are just really painfully filling up their vehicles and looking for relief.
BROWNSTEIN: Well, the good news, Kitty, is: The prospects for some kind of energy policy are better now than they've been at any point in the Bush presidency because the issue that's been the biggest impediment to getting something done -- for better or worse, the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge was taken out of the energy bill and has already been dealt with in the budget. They division here is that the Senate has produce a bill that is probably more friendly to alternative energy and conservation as they move toward completion, than the house.
And reconciling those two in a way that doesn't provoke a filibuster, if it comes out of conference, will be the real challenge in the weeks ahead.
PILGRIM: All right. Thank you very much, gentlemen and have a great weekend. We will see you again.
Ron Brownstein, Jim Ellis and Bill Schneider.
Thank you very much.
And today's quote of the day comes from a man who is about to step into a very thankless and dangerous job. His name is Omar Pimentell. He's a leading candidate for police chief of lawless Nuevo Laredo, Mexico.
Now, dozens of people have been murdered there this year. The previous Nuevo Laredo police chief lasted just hours in office before the drug gangs killed him. Pimentell says quote, "of course there's fear, of course I'm worried, I am human too. I've have asked my parents to pray for me, to light a candle and also to pray for my enemies."
Well, we absolutely wish Omar Pimentell very well.
When we return: Crisis on the high seas -- experts say the U.S. Navy needs billions more dollars to keep up with China. They say our superpower status is at stake. Plus: Carrying for our veterans -- they put their lives on the line for our nation. Is the nation doing enough for them? I'll speak with a senator who says the veteran's health care system is crumbling.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Overstretched, underfunded and shrinking -- my next guest says the U.S. Navy is in crisis and he says the Pentagon must move immediately to rebuild our fleet. Author and historian Arthur Herman is my guest from Richmond Virginia and he is the author of a new book: "To Rule the Waves: How the British Navy Shaped the Modern World." Well, we'll look at America's navy with him, tonight.
And thanks for being with us, sir.
ARTHUR HERMAN, AUTHOR: Well, it's a great pleasure to be able to talk to you.
PILGRIM: Let's start -- we have the biggest navy in the world, but five years out, you say we're really in crisis. Why?
HERMAN: Five years out, a decade out -- I mean, nothing is broken, yet. We still have the most powerful, the most effective navy in the world, but it's a shrinking navy. It's an aging navy. It has a diminishing, disappearing submarine fleet. It has naval aviators who are getting less and less training for more and more combat duty. In other words, we just have a fleet which has more missions than the number of ships and the number of personnel can handle and that's right now, we've got to many, with the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. People don't realize how vital the navy is in that war.
PILGRIM: How vital is it?
HERMAN: It is a situation in which, right now, things are, I think -- the rubber band is stretched. In the next five years, unfortunately, defense planners in the Pentagon are planning to stretch that even more, by continuing to shrink the Navy, by continuing to expand the amount of time that it's going to have to be at sea, the amount of time it's going to have to spend, you know, carrying out missions, because there just aren't going to be enough ships -- enough ships and men to do it.
PILGRIM: Let's talk about submarine fleets. Looking through your material, I was just stunned. We have 74 submarines; Chinese, 72, but China is building them so fast that they are going to overtake us quite rapidly. Why is that dangerous?
HERMAN: Well, it's dangerous because -- it's potentially dangerous, because the Chinese have realized that if they are going to become the major power in the Pacific and in Asia, that naval power and naval supremacy in the Pacific is key to that. And they see submarines as the means by which they can become the major player in that region, and really in that whole hemisphere. And as our submarine fleet continues to shrink, and we build at a rate in which we're going to see it shrink to perhaps less than 250 submarines -- I'm sorry, it's going to be shrinking to probably less than 50 submarines in a very short period of time, what we are going to see is the Chinese continuing to build more and more modern ship -- submarines, and this is going to become a real challenge to us later on if we find ourselves entangled in a conflict over Taiwan, in a showdown with North Korea in which the Chinese, for example, decide to side with the North Koreans. We are going to have some very, very tough choices ahead of us.
PILGRIM: You have written about the legendary British navy. What would you like to see for the American Navy?
HERMAN: Well, I don't want to see them repeat the same mistakes. You know, the British navy after World War I was the largest in the world. Really, two out of every three warships in the world were British navy ships. But for shortsighted budgetary reasons, and because it was believed, well, we don't need a navy this size, they shrank it by more than half, and the result was a massive destabilization. In the Pacific, you get the rise of Japan. You get the rise of Italy in the Mediterranean. The rise of the German power and the German submarine fleet in Western Europe.
And I don't want to see us make the same mistake where we get so involved in this war on terror that when it's over, and we wake up and look around at what's happening in other parts of the world, and particularly in Asia, that we are going to find relationships have changed, our power diminished, and our world a lot more dangerous place than it was when we started.
PILGRIM: A very strong "support the Navy" message from Arthur Herman. Thank you very much for being with us, sir.
HERMAN: It's been a pleasure.
PILGRIM: Here's a reminder now to vote in tonight's poll. Would you eat meat from a cloned animal? Yes or no? Cast your vote at loudobbs.com, and we will bring you the results a little bit later in the broadcast.
Well, today's Washington's National Zoo proudly showed off a new litter of baby cheetahs, five adorable cubs in all. Take a look at those. These cheetahs are pretty difficult to breed. They are nearly extinct in the wild. This is a rare litter. It's the second in the zoo's 116-year history. Now, when these baby cheetahs grow up, they will be among the fastest animals on Earth, capable of running up to 60 miles an hour, but they're toddling now.
Coming up at the top of the hour here on CNN is "ANDERSON COOPER 360," and Anderson joins us now with a preview -- Anderson.
ANDERSON COOPER, HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER 360": See, how can I follow the cheetah?
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: Next on 360, the latest from Aruba. More questions for the father of the prime suspect, Judge Paul Van Der Sloot. He is himself a suspect, arrested yesterday. We will find out if all the suspects are changing their stories.
We're also getting a better idea of the events that took place the night Natalee disappeared. We'll walk you through them step by step. Also, that American search and rescue team now on the ground in Aruba. The question is, will the equipment and expertise they are carrying will bring them any closer to finding Natalee. All that ahead. 360.
PILGRIM: Thanks a lot, Anderson.
Up next, "Heroes." Tonight, the remarkable story of a soldier who carried on fighting the enemy in Iraq despite his wounds.
And a budget crisis at the Veteran's Administration. My guest is a leading senator, who says the crisis is simply appalling.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Tonight in "Heroes," our weekly tribute to the men and women serving in our armed forces, a story of bravery and self- sacrifice. Sergeant Matthew Zedwick narrowly survived a car bomb attack in Iraq, and he put his own life on the line to save fellow soldiers and continue fighting. He's now a national hero.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SGT. MATTHEW ZEDWICK, OREGON NATIONAL GUARD: This is Specialist Mattier (ph). This is the guy that uparmored my side of the vehicle before I got blown up. This is one of my heroes right here. Helped me out that day.
PILGRIM (voice-over): Sergeant Matthew Zedwick holds a special place here at the Oregon National Guard Armory in Corvallis. He is the recipient of the Oregon Guard's first Silver Star since World War II.
Zedwick nearly lost his life driving in a convoy when a car bomb exploded, tossing the lightly armored humvees into the air like toys. Zedwick wasn't supposed to drive that day, but a last-minute detail forced a switch.
The back of his vehicle where he usually rode was destroyed, and a soldier lost his life. But his driver's side survived, thanks to the improvised armor his buddy installed.
ZEDWICK: He uparmored the inside of the vehicle. The cab, he put extra (INAUDIBLE) and plates under the seat and stuff like that.
PILGRIM: Surviving the blast, Zedwick braved a hail of bullets to see if his buddies were OK. As he was dragging a fellow soldier to safety, a second blast.
ZEDWICK: That was right after I pulled Sergeant Davis (ph) out of the vehicle and had the door open. So the door was like between us and the blast. I just pulled him out, and I was kind of hunkered over him. PILGRIM: Zedwick saved the soldier's life. After pulling him to safety, Zedwick then continued to fight, ignoring the shrapnel that had pierced his wrist.
ZEDWICK: My lieutenant came up and, you know, asked me if I was all right. And I was like, I just -- just have a dead arm, you know. He checks it out, and I have like three pieces of shrapnel in my arm, and a chunk in my wrist.
PILGRIM: Battered and bruised, he returned to duty the next day, impressing a fellow soldier who served in Vietnam and Iraq.
SGT. RILEY KING, OREGON NATIONAL GUARD: It's an incredible honor to have deployed with Sergeant Zedwick. And he represents the new generation that stepped up to the plate and has served courageously and honorably.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Sergeant Zedwick plans to attend Oregon State University in the fall and to enter an ROTC program and to become an Army officer. We wish him every success.
Veterans groups have long accused the Bush administration of not budgeting enough money to meet our veterans' medical needs, and yesterday, after lengthy questioning by Congress, the administration admitted that the Department of Veterans Affairs faces a $1 billion budget shortfall. My guest tonight says the current budget falls -- shortfall is appalling -- not surprising, though.
Senator Patty Murray, a member of the Veterans Affairs Committee, joins me now. And thanks very much for being here.
SEN. PATTY MURRAY (D), WASHINGTON: Thank you, Kitty.
PILGRIM: You know, James Nicholson, secretary of the Veterans Administration, two weeks ago said there was no problem with money, and now a billion-dollar shortfall. That's a big oops, isn't it?
MURRAY: Well, I am saddened, I'm frustrated and I am angry. Many of us have been saying for a number of months now that our veterans hospitals, our veterans facilities do not have the money that they need to do, to take care of our soldiers that are out there today, much less the ones that are returning home. And we've been calling on the administration to be honest, and they finally just kind of told us yesterday that they are over $1 billion short. That is tremendous. And it is a real disservice to the men and women who have served us.
PILGRIM: Now the Senate Veterans Affairs Committee has a meeting on June 30. What do you expect out of that meeting?
MURRAY: Well chairman -- the chairman of the committee, Senator Craig who is a Republican told me when I offered an amendment several months ago to make up for the short fall, and he opposed me. He said if I find out I am wrong we are going to sit down and work together to be able to fund this.
We are going to have a hearing next week in committee to have the administration come before us. And I call on them to be honest now, to not paper this over, but to tell us the actual figures so we can come up with the money. And I think we will have to do it with an emergency supplemental.
PILGRIM: You've studied this considerably, what are we lacking?
MURRAY: What are we lacking in terms of money?
PILGRIM: Yes. In terms of where we need to place it.
MURRAY: Well look, what the administration is saying is there's a short fall of over $1 billion. And they are going to take the money out of money we have allocated for maintenance and building and construction. First of all there's only $760 million, so there's not enough. But that is wrong. We are doing asbestos rebatement (ph), we're building clinic in many of our communities that don't have access now for our servicemen and women. We have a freeze on, a hiring freeze on. We need critical care nurses that need to be in our veterans hospitals.
For our soldiers who are coming home today who have been injured, we need to have the care there. For our soldiers who have performed for us so wonderfully in the past we need to make sure we have the facilities for them now. And we don't. And that's wrong.
PILGRIM: You were in Iraq just a few months ago -- two months ago, what were you hearing there?
MURRAY: You know, I met with our soldiers from the state of Washington while I was there, and the question they asked me is -- will my country be there for me when I get home? And most importantly, will I have health care when I get home as I was promised when I signed up? And it's our responsibility as part of the cost of war to make sure that's there.
And I really fault this administration for not being honest with the American public about what the cost of caring for our soldiers is, and budgeting for it. And now not being honest with us about the incredible deficit at the VA that we are now facing.
PILGRIM: Do you think we every it solved?
MURRAY: We don't have it solved. We have to come up with over $1 billion. And again, we can't paper this over, pretend it isn't there or make up numbers, we need to come up with real dollars. Now incredibly, over $1 billion, or we are going to be facing nursing shortages that just are wrong. We are not going to have the facilities for our veterans who are coming home, kids who have injured in the war, the facilities won't be there. And we cannot do that in this country, we owe it to the men and women who have served us so nobly.
PILGRIM: I think many of us would agree with that statement. Thank you very, Senator Murray.
MURRAY: Thank you.
PILGRIM: Still ahead your thoughts, plus the results of tonight's poll, also a preview of what's ahead next week. And then outrage over the Supreme Court ruling that lets local governments seize property for private development. Ken and Daria Dolan will join us, unscripted, as always. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Here are the results of tonight's poll, 37 percent of you say you would eat meat from a cloned animal, 63 percent would not.
Let's look at some of your thoughts while we're at it.
Mark from Atlanta, Georgia, "burning the flag, as unAmerican as is it, is free speech, and confiscating private land for private developers is downright theft."
That's what he writes.
Laura Allen of Modesto, California, "they want to create an amendment to banning flag burning? They already tried passing one, banning drinking alcohol back in the 1920's. Look at what a resounding success that was. Amendments to our constitution should protect rights, not ban activities." That's what she writes.
And Roderick from Winona, Minnesota, "how will the military and the Boy Scouts dispose of flags if the flag burning amendment passes. The military has a very beautiful ceremony to dispose of worn out flags by dipping the flags in kerosene and placing them in a fire."
And we just love hearing from you, send us your thoughts, loudobbs@CNN.com. And each of you with whose e-mail is read on the broadcast will receive a copy of Lou's book "Exporting America."
Well, joining me now from "Dolans Unscripted" which airs tomorrow morning, 10:00 am Eastern on CNN is Ken and Daria Dolan.
KEN DOLAN, DOLANS UNSCRIPTED: May I say one thing before we begin. Kitty Pilgrim, you look absolutely marvelous.
PILGRIM: Very nice to hear, thank you.
K. DOLAN: We have got a lot going on tomorrow. We have got to talk eminent domain among other things -- those thieving rats.
DARIA DOLAN, DOLANS UNSCRIPTED: In fact, we are taking over the studio, because it's for the public good, on Saturday mornings.
But this is a real kettle of worms. I think the Pandora's box has just been opened. And I think that what's going to follow this Supreme Court decision is going to be a nightmare.
K. DOLAN: Yeah. Sandra Day O'Connor said -- I'm just loosely quoting Kitty -- and that is, the specter of condemnation that now hangs over everybody's property. And one of the things, in also in a separate dissent, Thomas said he thinks it's perverse ruling.
And here's the point, I think it's bad for middle America and the good guys. And it's great for the bad guys -- large, corporate America.
D. DOLAN: But it raises a very interesting situation, because here you had the more liberal members of the court who ruled, basically against the little guy.
PILGRIM: Eminent domain, right?
D. DOLAN: Yep. And you have the conservatives saying what? How could this happen? And yet who supports state's rights more? Conservatives. Then, so their really caught in a bind now, because basically one of the decisions written was that we don't want to gainsay state.
K. DOLAN: Here's the point, if I own a Motel 6, does that mean a Ritz Carlton come along and boot me out, because the tax is going to be better? I think it's difficult, constitutionally to take private from somebody A. Give it to private owner B just because private owner B can pay more taxes to the community. I think it's a mess. I think I agree with Justice Thomas, I think it's perverse. And I think it's going to be a very, very bad precedent.
PILGRIM: Well, every American in the country took a big gasp and said what does this mean for me? This is the ultimate, what does this mean for me, ruling, isn't it?
K. DOLAN: Government (INAUDIBLE)
D. DOLAN: Well, you know, Justice Thomas also made one very, very important point. It was for the public good. That was the original intention of our founding fathers. And that assumed public access. This is going to take public access away, at least in New London, Connecticut.
PILGRIM: We count on you to sort it out. Thank you very much, Ken and Daria Dolan. Thank you.
And thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us on Monday. The author of a controversial new book on Senator Hillary Clinton will join us. Plus, fast track deportation for members of violent illegal alien gangs in this country. One Congressman has made it his mission. He'll join us. We hope you will too.
Have a great weekend. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" starts right now -- Anderson.
END
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
