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Nancy Grace
Nancy Grace for June 27, 2005, CNNHN
Aired June 27, 2005 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking legal news from all parts of the country. Bind, torture, kill, BTK, serial killer Dennis Rader admits he`s guilty on ten counts of murder one. And in horrific detail, today he stayed cool and calm describing methodical yet deranged acts of murder and torture, sometimes killing a mother while making her children wait in the next room, referring to his victims as projects.
And the Supreme Court rules Colorado police cannot be sued by a mother after police refused to go after and stop her estranged husband from murdering their three beautiful daughters, just 7, 9 and 10.
And tonight, live to Aruba and the search for the missing American girl, 18-year-old Natalee Holloway. She disappeared from her high school senior trip to Aruba. Tonight, two of five suspects walk free. But why?
Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace, and I want to thank you for being with us tonight.
Breaking legal news across the country. We go live to Aruba and the search for 18-year-old Natalee Holloway. That search rages on. A local deejay and an Aruban judge get out of jail, originally held in connection with Natalee`s disappearance. Now, the judge`s son and two other suspects still behind bars.
And tonight, a landmark ruling by the Supremes, the U.S. Supremes, Jessica Gonzales says police willingly refused to stop her husband from shooting her three young daughters to death. And now, the nation`s highest court piles on, saying police cannot be sued for refusing to enforce restraining orders. Well, where does that leave her and millions of women just like her?
But first, bind, torture, kill. Dennis Rader pleads guilty on ten counts of murder one. Rader revealed horrific details about serial murders, murders that terrorized Wichita, Kansas, for decades. The victims` families hearing details of the murders for the first time in court from the murderer himself.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DENNIS RADER, CONFESSED BTK KILLER: I proceeded to tie her up. She got sick, threw up. Got her a glass of water, comforted her a little bit. And then went ahead and tied her up and put a bag over her head and strangled her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK, gave her a glass of water, comforted her, before I killed her?
Tonight, in New Orleans, Amy Davis. Her grandmother brutally murdered by Rader. In Wichita, Kansas, deputy D.A. Kevin O`Connor. In L.A., defense attorney Debra Opri. In Denver, defense attorney Lisa Wayne. In New York, psychologist Dr. Robi Ludwig.
But first, let`s go out to KAKE reporter Larry Hatteberg. Larry, I can hardly contain myself. When I look at Rader so calmly describing his victims as projects, talking how he had to put them down like they`re dogs?
LARRY HATTEBERG, REPORTER, KAKE-TV: It was absolutely incredible. It`s testimony that I don`t think anybody expected to hear today. And it was testimony that I think very few reporters have really ever heard in court.
He did talk about his people, his killings as projects. And as I was writing notes, it made my skin crawl, because he referred to his people as projects. He talked about his hit kit that he had, that he would take into a house sometime. And if he had his hit kit, he knew he could kill the person.
It was really, really riveting testimony. But at the same time, it was testimony that you felt, "I really don`t want to hear this," but the city of Wichita deserved to hear this after 30 years.
GRACE: Well, speaking of, here is the BTK killer, Dennis Rader, in court.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RADER: We went back to her bedroom, and I proceeded to tie the kids up. And they started crying and got real upset. So I said, "Oh, this is not going to work." So we moved them to the bathroom.
She helped me. And then I tied the door shut. We put some toys and blankets, and odds and ends in there for the kids, make them as comfortable as I could. We tied one of the bathroom doors shut so they couldn`t open it, and she went back and helped me shove the bed up against the other bathroom door.
Mr. Otero was strangled. Bag put over his head and strangled. And I though he was going down. And I went over and strangled Mrs. Otero, and I thought she was down. Then I strangled Josephine, and she was down. And then I went over to Junior and put the bag on his head.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: The BTK killer in court referring to putting down his victims like they were dogs.
To Amy Davis, Amy`s grandmother was murdered by Dennis Rader. Amy, when you hear talk like that, what do you think?
AMY DAVIS, GRANDMOTHER MURDERED BY BTK: I think that he`s not human, that he`s someone masking around in a human body, that he is a soulless creature. And to try to rationalize that type of thought process -- it`s comforting as victims, but it makes no sense. He`s not a real person; he`s not a real human.
GRACE: To Kevin O`Connor, the deputy district attorney in court today. Kevin, again, welcome.
Kevin, in all of your years of prosecuting, have you ever seen anything like it?
KEVIN O`CONNOR, DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY ON CASE: No, Nancy, haven`t. Of course, this is the first serial murderer that I`ve prosecuted. So it was chilling. Even though we`re aware of the evidence that we have been preparing for trial, it`s still a situation where you hear it, no matter how many times you hear it or see it, it`s something that`s very difficult to listen to, even as an experienced prosecutor. It`s something that hits you right in the heart.
GRACE: Man, you`re not kidding.
Kevin, I agree with Charles Dickens, he wrote, "If that`s the law, then the law is an ass." Explain to us why you guys could not seek the death penalty on this guy.
O`CONNOR: Well, in Kansas, we didn`t have a death penalty at the time these crimes occurred. And the death penalty was reinstated in this state in 1994. The killings took place between 1974 and 1991.
And so, therefore, under the law, you`re precluded from seeking the death penalty in this situation. Under our current law, these types of crimes would possibly qualify as a death-penalty-eligible case.
GRACE: Everybody, take a listen to this, and you will understand why so many advocates thought the death penalty is the appropriate sentence.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RADER: I went ahead and stripped her, and probably went ahead and -- I`m not sure if I tied her up at that point in time. But anyway, she was nude, and I put her on a blanket, went through her purse, some personal items in the house, and figured out how I was going to get her out of there.
Eventually moved her to the trunk of the car, took some pictures of her. She was already dead, so I took pictures of her in different forms of bondage. And that`s probably what got me in trouble is the bondage things.
If you read much about serial killers, they go through what they call different phases. That`s one of the phases they go through is, as a trolling stage. Basically, you`re looking for a victim at that time.
And you could be trolling for months or years, but once you lock in on a certain person, you become stalking. And that might be several of them, but you really hone in on that person.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You know, Larry Hatteberg, you`re with KAKE-TV. He never got it. He`s talking about how, "That`s what got me in trouble. I took the pictures of the dead woman that I had tied up in bondage."
He doesn`t get it. This is somebody`s mother, for God`s sake, this is somebody`s daughter, their sister, the one they loved. And he`s talking about how he got in trouble because he foolishly took pictures of her in bondage?
HATTEBERG: Well, you could tell in the courtroom that he didn`t care. And I think that he rather enjoyed talking about it. You know, the interesting thing in the courtroom today is the judge did our job. He acted as a reporter.
And I thought he did an excellent job in the courtroom, ferreting out Dennis Rader. And when Dennis Rader first started talking, he was a little nervous, had to take a couple of drinks of water. But after he started going, you could tell, I think, that Dennis Rader was thoroughly enjoying it because he felt he was still in control.
GRACE: Take a listen to this, Dr. Ludwig.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVE RELFORD, SON OF BTK VICTIM: ... knocked on the door, me and my brother raced to the door. I answered the door. Asked me, were my parents home? I told him, "Yes, my mom, she`s sick in bed." So he proceeded to come on in, started pulling down the blinds, and turned off the TV, and pulled out a gun.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That`s the son of one of the BTK murder victims. He was there when Rader came into the home.
What can you tell us, Robi, about the way this guy enjoys talking about these murders in open court?
DR. ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: It`s like it gave him a high. And this was his identity. This was his life work. This is why he wanted to be found.
He wants his name to go down in the history books next to the other serial killers. He has no conscience, no feeling, and it`s very disturbing to people who can feel for other people to witness this type of psychological process.
GRACE: I mean, Larry Hatteberg, she`s right. Just listening to him - - I was up in a plane and was listening to him live. And it nearly made me sick the way he talked about these people as if they weren`t people at all. Did he ever show any remorse in court, Larry?
HATTEBERG: Well, I sat right behind him in the courtroom. I never saw any remorse. I never -- there was no apology. There was no look on his face of compassion for the victims of what he had done.
I saw absolutely zero remorse from Dennis Rader in that courtroom. I don`t think anybody has ever seen any remorse from Dennis.
GRACE: We are showing you shots of some of the crime scenes where one victim after the next, after the next, 10 that we know of, fell prey to the BTK killer in court today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RADER: While I was walking down Hydraulic, I met a young boy and asked him if he -- could I.D. some pictures. Kind of as a ruse, I guess, a ruse, as you call it. And I had to feel it out.
And I saw where he went. And went to another address and knocked on the door, nobody opened the door. So I just noticed where he went and went to that house and went for them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RADER: We went back to her bedroom. And I proceeded to tie the kids up, and they started crying and got real upset. So I said, no, this is not going to work. So we moved them to the bathroom. And she helped me.
And I tied the door shut. We put some toys, and blankets, and odds and ends in there for the kids to make them as comfortable as I could. Tied one of the bathroom doors shut so they couldn`t open it, and then we shoved -- she went back and helped me shove the bed up against the other bathroom door.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Yes, that`s right, Rader. Make the kids as comfortable as you could while you murdered their mother in the next room. That`s what he`s talking about.
Dennis Rader, BTK killer -- I don`t know where you were this morning at 10:00 a.m. But I was watching this guy in court. Dennis Rader, bind, torture, kill. He terrorized the city of Wichita for over a decade. And today, he answered up to Lady Justice. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RADER: I confronted her, told her that I was a -- I had a problem, sexual problems, that I would have to tie her up and have sex with her. She was a little upset.
We talked for a while. She smoked a cigarette. While we smoked a cigarette, I went through her purse, identifying some stuff. And she finally said, "Well, let`s get this over with, so I can go call the police." And I said OK.
And she said can I go to the bathroom? I said yes. She went to the bathroom. And I told her when she came out to make sure that she was undressed. And when she came out, I handcuffed her, and really...
JUDGE GREGORY WALLER, SEDGWICK COUNTRY DISTRICT COURT JUDGE: You handcuffed her? You had a pair of handcuffs?
RADER: Yes, sir, yes.
WALLER: What happened then?
RADER: Well, anyway, I handcuffed her, had her lay on the bed, and then I tied her feet. And then I was also undressed to a certain degree.
And then I got on top of her. And I reached over -- either her feet were tied or not tied. But anyway, I think I had a belt. I took the belt and then strangled her with the belt at that time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Even now, I can hardly stand to hear it. With me, Deputy District Attorney Kevin O`Connor.
Kevin, he tells the woman, he breaks in, and says, "I`ve got a sex fantasy problem. I`m going to have to rape you." He says she gets a little upset. You know what, he`s not crazy? He is simply not legally insane, is he, Kevin?
O`CONNOR: No. I believe that the defense even looked into that possibility, that possible defense. And I think his chief attorney today said that they explored it and found it not to be something that they wanted to pursue further. If that`s something that they wanted to do, we were perfectly prepared to prove otherwise.
GRACE: I`m going to go back to Amy Davis. Amy`s grandmother was murdered by Dennis Rader. What would you say to Rader if you could speak to him tonight? Don`t worry. He`s probably got access to a TV.
DAVIS: That it`s dismissive to call him a lunatic, that he`s a soulless creature, masquerading around as a human. And he`s fooled his congregation. He`s fooled his wife. He`s fooled his children.
And I feel sorry for all of them. But after this life, he will pay for everything that he`s done. I know that. He`s enjoying everything that he`s done. And he`s reveling every moment of this. And it will all be over soon enough for him.
All of his victims have rested now. And we`re all living in the wake of what he`s done to all of these people. I know he`s proud of what he`s done. But he`s worthless. He`s not even worth the breath that I`m wasting to even discuss him.
GRACE: You know what? Amy, you`re right. Let`s talk about your grandmother.
DAVIS: She was the most wonderful, loving, caring soul. She had so much life. She was so giving and protective. And she was -- she was wonderful. She had a great sense of humor. She had the best love for all of us. And she had the biggest soft spot for animals. She was just a wonderful, wonderful light in this world.
GRACE: Amy...
DAVIS: And everyone that knew her, anyone that knew her, ever had contact with her, absolutely adored her. She was just wonderful. She was everything you would ever want in a grandmother.
GRACE: You know, everybody? We`re talking about Amy`s grandmother, who is a victim to BTK, Dennis Rader. Just pause for a moment. Think about your own grandmother, if she had been mistreated and murdered like this, talked about like she was an animal, the way Rader talked about his victims, take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RADER: I didn`t have a mask on or anything. They were ready to I.D. me. And I made a decision to go ahead and put them down, I guess, or strangle.
WALLER: All right. What did you do to Joseph Otero?
RADER: To Justice Otero?
WALLER: Yes, Joseph Otero, Sr., Mr. Otero, the father.
RADER: I put a plastic bag over his head, and then some cords, and tightened it.
WALLER: This was in the bedroom?
RADER: Yes, sir.
WALLER: Did he, in fact, suffocate and die as a result of this?
RADER: Not right away. No, sir, he didn`t.
WALLER: What happened?
RADER: Well, after that, I did Mrs. Otero. I had never strangled anyone before. So I really didn`t know how much pressure you had to put on a person or how long it would take. But...
WALLER: Was she also tied up there...
RADER: Yes, yes. Both their hands and their feet were tied up. She was on the bed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: To all of his victims, may they rest in peace.
Quickly to "Trial Tracking." Today, a judge gave in to the defense request that a 16-year-old accused of bludgeoning his own brother to death with a baseball bat be moved to a mental facility. The judge postponed a decision whether the 16-year-old will be tried in adult court.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETER MCGAREY, UNCLE OF VICTIM AND SUSPECT: The Warrington family has suffered a horrible tragedy. Johnny`s brother is a wonderful and loving child who has the full support of his entire family.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LINDA ALLISON, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S AUNT: With the release of Paul Van Der Sloot yesterday, hearing that news was very upsetting to the family, just a big disappointment. And we consider this a major setback.
And we`re hoping that, still with the detaining of the three original boys that were with Natalee the night of her disappearance, that hopefully they`ll continue to have the interrogation and that, eventually, one of these boys is going to tell the truth.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That`s right. It was a kick in the pants to Natalee`s family, both the judge wannabe Paul Van Der Sloot, and the deejay, held in connection with Natalee`s disappearance, have been released. That`s right. Get out of jail free.
Tonight, let`s go to Aruba. Standing by, Natalee`s mother and stepfather, Beth and George Twitty. Also with us, the director of Equusearch, Tim Miller, who has volunteered to fly to Aruba and help bring Natalee home.
But first to CNN correspondent Karl Penhaul. Karl, if they saw fit to arrest Paul Van Der Sloot, called a judge by many, a judge wannabe by others, and this deejay, why did they -- if they arrested him, why did they let him go?
KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, what the judge decided when he heard these cases yesterday was there wasn`t sufficient evidence to continue holding them. Under Dutch law, they have to have reasonable suspicion to arrest them in the first place. Obviously, the prosecutors thought they had that.
But this judge was brought in from neighboring Curacao to ensure impartiality in the case. He looked at the evidence against Steve Croes, who had been arrested ten days previously. He looked at the evidence against Paul Van Der Sloot, who had been arrested three days previously. And he said there is not enough evidence to continue to hold them, so he had no alternative but to release them, Nancy.
GRACE: George Twitty what you to say to the release of Paul Van Der Sloot?
GEORGE "JUG" TWITTY, STEPFATHER OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY: I`m very disappointed. Evidently they took him in and charged him with a huge array of charges. And I guess the judge came in -- the judge that missed the flight from Curacao -- came in the next day and obviously said, "Well, you know, we don`t have enough to hold him here on attempted murder," or whatever all the charges were, premeditated. I`m not exactly sure what all the charges were.
GRACE: Miss Twitty, what do you think about the judge`s release?
BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, MOTHER OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY: Oh, Nancy, I was devastated. You know, I think everyone knows how hard that Jug and I have worked since May 30th at 11:00 p.m. And as I`m standing here, there is an individual in the room that was with us on that night in the early morning hours of May 31st. And he`s come now for the fourth time.
And I almost feel like we`re back at the beginning. You know, I felt like we were really making progress and moving in the right direction. And now, Nancy, I can`t tell you where we are.
GRACE: With me in Aruba, Natalee`s mother Beth Holloway Twitty, along with her husband, George Twitty. The search for Natalee Holloway rages on. We`ll be right back. Please stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALLISON: After hearing what was said the evening that Beth and Jug had come in on a Monday evening or early Tuesday morning hours where he was telling his son not to talk. And we keep going back to that again, that if you`re telling the truth, that`s the only way that any story is, is that there is only one way to tell it. And so these stories continue to change, and we really feel that the father knows something and he`s withholding that information.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SAN MIGUEL: Hi, everybody. I`m Renay San Miguel. Here`s your HEADLINE PRIME Newsbreak.
A teenage boy is recovering after a shark attack in Florida forced him to have is leg amputated. It`s the second shark attack in the Panhandle area in 48 hours. The boy was fishing in just 80 miles from where a girl was killed by a shark on Saturday. Authorities are stepping up their patrols in the area.
The U.S. Supreme Court handed down some weighty rulings today, approving the use of the Ten Commandment as a display as long as it does not promote religion, and ruling against Internet file-sharing services which allow the illegal swapping of movies and music. But despite wide speculation, no justices announced their retirement today.
And this just in to CNN. The heir to the Wal-Mart fortune, John Walton, has been killed in a plane crash in Wyoming. He was 58 years old. We`ll bring you more information as soon as it comes into us.
That`s the news for now. I`m Renay San Miguel. Now back to Nancy Grace.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARCIA TWITTY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S AUNT: You know, you see a lot out there. You know, your head might travel there for a second, but your heart won`t let you. So you just bring it back to what the focus is, what we so desperately want, and that`s for Beth and Natalee and the whole family, everybody, all the Holloways, everybody, to get home safe. You know, we`re not losing hope.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us.
We are live in Aruba. Let`s go to Natalee`s mother. Natalee Holloway, an 18-year-old American beauty from Alabama, had a full scholarship waiting for her when she got back home, disappeared on her high school senior trip.
To Beth Holloway Twitty.
Beth, when did you find out that Van Der Sloot, this judge, or as you guys are telling me, a judge wannabe, just got released out of the blue? When did you find out?
BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S MOTHER: Yesterday afternoon, probably between 4:00 and 5:00 p.m. And Nancy, it was the most...
GRACE: And how did you feel?
B. TWITTY: Oh, Nancy, I was devastated. I was devastated. As I said earlier, I felt like we were thrown back to May 31 and those early morning hours. It was just unbelievable.
GRACE: And to Mr. Twitty, Mr. Twitty, you are convinced this man knows something about where your girl is?
GEORGE TWITTY, NANCY HOLLOWAY`S STEPFATHER: I`m convinced, Nancy, that he has more answers than he`s saying since I confronted him that night. I went on -- I went on Dutch TV today, all the Dutch television stations came in here yesterday, and I pleaded to them to please, you know, look into the investigation, maybe send some more people down here.
The answers are here. We know in our hearts that the three men in custody have the answers. And it is a matter of getting the answers out.
I had a gentleman call me tonight from Atlanta that is -- his name is T.J. Ward (ph) from Atlanta, and he has a voice analysis machine and offered to come down here free. It`s a new machine. It`s just put out by the Israelis (ph). It`s the best in the world. And all he needs to do is put the machine on the -- on one of the tapes that they have of the boys in the questioning.
And, you know, I would hope that they would welcome something like that. But whether they will or not, I don`t know.
GRACE: Hey, Mr. Twitty, would you recount for us again that initial meeting that you had with the so-called judge and the boy, his son, and the other two, what happened that night?
TWITTY: OK. We arrived here, and then within three hours we found out where the car was that Natalee was last seen in. We went to the judge`s house with -- the failed judge. Went to his house, and he came with the two uniformed officers, he came to the gate -- I`m just giving you a quick synopsis.
He called his son to see where he was at 3:30 or so in the morning. This son is supposed to be such an angel -- 3:30 in the morning he supposedly was at one of the casinos gambling. And so we all got in the car, including his father, went to the casino.
He wasn`t there. He called from there, and he said, "Where are you? I thought you said you were here." "Oh, I`m back home now."
And so that`s kind of the -- and there is more to it, but...
GRACE: But when you got there, you told me the judge -- this judge, this so-called judge, was saying, "Don`t say anything. Don`t say anything."
TWITTY: That`s after we got back from the casino and he and Deepak were standing there. And we tried to question him and ask him about Natalee and what had happened. And when the questioning got a little bit heated as to what happened, his dad stepped in and Deepak and said, "This is not America. This is not America. You have no ruling here. You have no manners. Joran, say nothing."
You know. You know, you could tell right off...
GRACE: So, you know, Lisa Wayne, you`re a defense lawyer. If this guy doesn`t have anything to hide, why not tell police what happened?
LISA WAYNE, DEFENSE LAWYER: Well, you know, I think at this point obviously the delay in time hurts their cooperation. But, you know, you have to be careful here, because you have a judge, another judge flying in looking over evidence.
GRACE: Well, that`s his back side right there, Lisa, running away from questions.
WAYNE: No, but you don`t want -- you know, what the family doesn`t want, Nancy, and either do you, is the wrong guy. They want the right guy.
So if you`re letting people go, and you`re grabbing at straws, you`ve got to be very careful, because as a defense lawyer, I`m saying, if you got a case, charge somebody. If you don`t have a case, let these people go. And get the right guy.
GRACE: You know what, Lisa? Lisa, that was beautiful the way you totally sidestepped the question.
I`m going to throw a hardball at Debra Opri.
What about it, Debra Opri? Lisa Wayne wouldn`t answer it, and I don`t blame her as a defense lawyer. If this guy doesn`t have anything to hide, why doesn`t he tell police what happened and why is he having his daddy cover up for him?
DEBRA OPRI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, he answered your question for you. This is not America.
He knows the Dutch law, and he will hide behind it. And unfortunately, Nancy, unless they find a body, unless one of those kids crack, with that father dictating to them to keep their mouth shut, they have no evidence. And unfortunately, because I believe she`s an American and she is deserving of the American rights as well, I think at some point in time the American government should just jump in and start pushing things a little bit closer to reality.
GRACE: I want to go back to Natalee`s mom, Beth Holloway Twitty. They obviously have not cracked yet, these three.
We know their stories have changed, Beth. We know their pointing the fingers at each other. We know they`re hiding something, because the father said, "Don`t talk anymore. Don`t talk anymore."
What makes you think, Beth that ultimately one of them will tell the truth?
B. TWITTY: You know, Nancy, Jug and I were talking about that this afternoon. We were thinking of how -- how supported we are and how we have this net of friends and this support group carrying us through this. And I think of Joran, and I think of this one 17-year-old boy sitting there during these interrogations, and it kind of -- this question just came to my mind today. You know, how supported and well connected is he to endure this and to keep this powerful attitude and toying with the interrogators as he is doing?
It just raised a question in my mind as to what he -- where he is. And how is he able to continue to do this?
GRACE: Jug, what do you think?
G. TWITTY: I`m very, very frustrated. I mean, how can a -- you`ve got three guys in custody that I actually talked to, that know they were with Natalee that night. And they hold the keys.
You`ve got a 17-year-old, a 21-year-old, and maybe an 18 or 19-year-old. And if Joran can`t be broken, the 17-year-old, he may be a psychopath -- I don`t know what he is, he may be -- but you`ve got two other guys in there. You tell me interrogators can`t break one of the three, it is hard for me to believe.
GRACE: I agree. I want to go to the director of EquuSearch, Tim Miller, who has gone down on his own dime to try to help find Natalee.
Mr. Miller, thank you for being with us, sir. Where were you searching today?
TIM MILLER, DIRECTOR, EQUUSEARCH: We had a lot of areas that we searched today, Nancy. And we took a helicopter up, Natalee`s father went up with me. And, you know, we`ve got a lot of things to do.
We did a lot of diving. And the dogs got somewhat of an indication there may be possibly be something there. And we`re just checking out...
GRACE: Where? Where? Where?
MILLER: Well, it was a lake that, you know, we was interested in, and it was fairly close to the family`s house. And it`s not cleared yet.
But, you know, in lieu of all of that, hopefully the judge will be judge some day. But I just want everybody to know that I spent a lot of time with Beth last night. And when the judge was released, and Croes was released, I seen a woman that just almost hit her knees.
And we hugged each other and she said, "Tim, please bring my daughter home." And my god, we cannot quit this search. My heart goes out to this family. And, you know, the frustrations are -- we`re getting real emotional about it.
And Beth asked me, "When should I leave this island?" I said, "Beth, you need to go ahead and go to a real estate company and let them know you`re not leaving."
So she kind of chuckled at that. And I don`t know, I think we`re here for a long haul, until every inch of this island is covered and we bring this girl home.
You know, I don`t even want to get into the investigation. It sidetracks me from the search. And it`s hard not to get emotional what`s going on, because it kind of sidetracks me too.
But I`m sorry, I get emotional over it. And I see this family, I spend a lot of time with them. And my god, we can`t forget them. We`ve got to bring their daughter home.
GRACE: Hey, Tim -- Tim, you said that one of the dogs indicated somewhat that he picked up Natalee`s scent at this lake, kind of a pond.
MILLER: No, I don`t want to say Natalee`s scent. So I don`t want to mislead anybody.
GRACE: A scent.
MILLER: A scent. And...
GRACE: Wait a minute. Let me ask you my question.
MILLER: Go ahead.
GRACE: My question is, what had you given the dog -- what smell, what scent had you given the dog to I.D. on?
MILLER: Nancy, they`re cadaver dogs that just are trained for human remains.
GRACE: Got you.
MILLER: And so, anyhow, we`re -- you know, we`re eliminating things. And trust me, Nancy, they`re not always right, believe me. I mean, there are some factors in there...
GRACE: Oh, I know.
MILLER: ... that could be wrong. So, you know, it`s -- you know, we`re doing everything that we can. But my god, this family needs some help. And they need some closure, or they need Natalee home. And we can`t let them stay on this island alone.
Beth asked me, she said yesterday, "How long are you staying?" And I said, "Beth I`m not leaving this island until you do."
So, you know, we`re here until whenever. And we`ll bring in every resource we have to bring in. We`ll bring in more resources.
I think in ways we`re getting more motivated. I mean, you know, frustrations go along, there is no sleep.
I`ve not taken a shower yet. I mean, we just got in. I didn`t even shave this morning.
But it is like the adrenaline is going. And we`ve just got do everything we can possibly do and bring in more high-tech equipment and stuff. And do what we can do for this family and for Natalee. I mean, I don`t know, Nancy.
GRACE: Mr. Miller, thank you so much for being with us. Mr. Miller, Tim Miller, the director of Equusearch there in Aruba, still searching for Natalee Holloway. Thank you to her mom and step stepdad too.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
JESSICA GONZALES, HUSBAND KILLED HER DAUGHTERS: I don`t know whether he picked them up today or not. Usually they come in and they say, "Mom, dad`s here. We`re leaving." But tonight there was no sign of him around or anything.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: She begged police to stop her estranged husband. He had her three little girls with him. The police would not go where she specifically told them her husband was.
He murdered her three little girls. And here is the kicker. She had a judicial order, a restraining order against him. The cops refused to act.
Today, the Supreme Court said that`s OK. Tonight, in L.A., the mother of those three little girls, Jessica Gonzales.
But first, to Colorado Springs and Douglas County news press reporter Megan Fromm.
Megan, thank you for being with us. Explain what went down today in Washington.
MEGAN FROMM, DOUGLAS COUNTY NEWS PRESS: Well, basically today what the Supreme Court decided was not actually an issue of restraining orders. This case was about whether or not Jessica Gonzales had a property interest because of that restraining order.
And essentially what the Supreme Court ruled is, because police have to be able to discern when to act and when not to act, a property order is not -- excuse me, a restraining order is not a property entitlement. And therefore, there was no violation of her 14th Amendment, due process rights.
GRACE: Jessica Gonzales, what do you have to say about what the Supreme Court did today?
GONZALES: You know, I am thoroughly disappointed in our legal system. I have absolutely no trust left for our judicial system or -- I mean, they would be the last people I would call if I ever were in danger. I really feel unprotected.
I feel that everybody that is a victim or has potential of being a victim really has no recourse. There is no other avenue in which I can provide at this moment to, as sad as it is, other victims.
I feel very cheated out of experiencing my daughters` lives. And the justices gave me a big message today that, according to them, it really didn`t matter, and all the other people`s lives that are go to be affected by their decision today really doesn`t matter.
GRACE: Ms. Gonzales, I agree with you.
Debra Opri, she filed a restraining order against her husband. She called the cops and said, "He came and got my three girls, he`s not supposed to have them. And this is where he`s at. He`s at an amusement park. Get my girls."
They wouldn`t do it, Debra. So what good is the restraining order?
OPRI: It`s of no use. What, in essence -- and Ms. Gonzales, my heart goes out to you. I see this all the time. The problem we have is with our policies and procedures of local law enforcement, and no funding, not enough in the budget.
We have a lawyer on your behalf who went as high up as the Supreme Court and basically asked for something he knew he couldn`t get. What your lawyer asked for is for the Supreme Court to turn a reactive policy into a proactive policy. And they just don`t have that ability.
So what I would say is, at some point in time we have to take the next step and take those restraining orders and take a declaration much like it is with law enforcement and investigations, have a declaration and go to a local court and say, we need a search warrant, give it to us now. And that`s what we should do with a restraining order, go to judge and put it on them and take it off of law enforcement`s shoulders.
GRACE: You know, Robby Ludwig, what good is a restraining order? What can you tell your clients that are domestic violence victims in the future, get a restraining order? They might as well wad that up and throw it in the trash thanks to the U.S. Supreme Court.
DR. ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Yes, it`s true. And sometimes I tell them not to get a restraining order, because it can actually inflame a situation.
But when somebody does need to get a restraining order, it`s sometimes the way in which it`s said -- "I need to get a restraining order to protect the two of us. When we are around one another it`s dangerous. It is for both of us." So that they don`t feel attacked.
Because when somebody feels attacked, they`re more inclined to take revenge. So it`s a very complicated situation.
GRACE: Lisa Wayne, there is nowhere for Jessica Gonzales to go now.
WAYNE: That`s right. And let me answer this for you, Nancy. The bottom line here is that the police contend that they did act, that they can`t there be 24/7 because there aren`t the resources. And that they did do some things.
They called the cell phone, they watched for his truck. And you`ve got remember, this restraining order had been modified so that he can see -- and police cannot anticipate every future crime.
GRACE: Hold on.
WAYNE: That`s your answer, Nancy. And that`s what they said.
GRACE: Jessica, just let`s clarify the facts. How many hours did you call the police and say, "Get my girls?" How many hours until your girls were finally murdered?
GONZALES: Ten hours. Seven contacts, two by face, and five by phone. Ten hours is a long time to ignore it.
GRACE: We`re showing you a shot of where these three little girls are buried. Something apparently our U.S. Supreme Court didn`t take into account today.
Very quickly, to tonight`s all points bulletin.
FBI and law enforcement across the country, on the lookout for this man, Errol Domangue. Domangue, convicted sex offender, wanted in connection with the murder of a Louisiana woman in 1993. In his 50s, 5`7", about 150 pounds, brown hair, brown eyes.
Any info on Errol Domangue, call the FBI at 504-816-3000.
Local news next for some of you. But we`ll all be right back. And remember, live coverage of Wednesday`s sentencing in the Sarah Johnson parent murder trial tomorrow, 3:00 to 5:00, on "Court TV."
Please stay with us as we remember Lance Corporal Jonathan R. Flores, an American hero.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: We at "NANCY GRACE" want desperately to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Take a look at Tong Her, just 30 years old, murdered January 30, 2003, Fresno, California, as he came home from work. If you have any information on this man, Tong Her, please call the Carole Sund Carrington Foundation toll free, 888-813-8389. Please help us.
Welcome back, everybody.
A mother of three turned down by the U.S. Supreme Court today. I`ve got about 20 pages that they spent telling her no deal, we`re sorry. The only justices that had any backbone to stand up against this was Stevens and Ginsburg, those two justices.
To Dr. Robi Ludwig, a father killing his three girls. Why?
LUDWIG: It`s really hard to imagine. In some cases it`s revenge, they know that they can get to the mother and get back at the mother. In some cases they feel that their children are siding with the mother.
In other cases it`s an extension of themselves and it`s a form of suicide. And in some cases it`s because they can`t take the responsibility, financially or otherwise.
GRACE: Very quickly to Jessica Gonzales. Her ex-husband murdered her three girls.
If you could speak out to the U.S. Supreme Court today, what would you say, Jessica?
GONZALES: I would have to say that I am not the only one or my children are not the only people here that have been let down. It`s too late for my children, but they could have made a decision that would have affected lives for generations to come and actually make those restraining orders everything that they say they are. Because at this point, you`ve given us no resources to help ourselves.
We just become victims over and over and over again. And the crimes that are being committed against people in our society today don`t match the laws that are written for them. And it`s time to start being -- it`s evolution. We need to be more conducive to our environment. And...
GRACE: Jessica, I could not agree with you more.
GONZALES: We`re not. We`re not conducive with it.
GRACE: And my thoughts are with you tonight. I expected something completely different from the Supreme Court.
GONZALES: So did i.
GRACE: I want to thank all of my guests tonight. My biggest thank you to you for being with us and inviting us into your homes.
I`m Nancy Grace, signing off for tonight. I`ll see you here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, goodnight, friend.
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