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Your World Today
Gaza Clashes; Bush Address on Iraq; U.S. Helicopter Down; Guantanamo Bay Controversy
Aired June 29, 2005 - 12:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: Live from CNN Center, this is YOUR WORLD TODAY.
ZAIN VERJEE, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Gaza flare-up. Jewish settlers clash with Israeli soldiers in Gaza then block traffic in the heart of Jerusalem. Ariel Sharon says this will not stop his Gaza withdrawal plan.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We will stay in Iraq as long as we are needed. And not a day longer.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JIM CLANCY, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: The U.S. president tries to steal the U.S. public for a long haul in Iraq. Americans are mulling over that message.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mean, I think we should totally re-evaluate the situation.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think that he has a point that it's difficult to pull out when you're fully into something.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VERJEE: And soccer's version of the war room. Germans aren't taking any chances with security heading into next year's World Cup.
It is 12:00 p.m. in Washington, 7:00 p.m. in Jerusalem. I'm Zain Verjee.
CLANCY: I'm Jim Clancy. Welcome to our viewers throughout the world. This is YOUR WORLD TODAY.
VERJEE: Reaction to U.S. President George W. Bush's address is pouring in from the Midwestern United States to central Baghdad.
CLANCY: Mr. Bush, of course, told Americans the war in Iraq is worth fighting, but he says he will not send more troops or set a timetable to withdraw.
VERJEE: We're going to gauge the reaction to that message in just a moment. But we're going to begin in another Middle East hotspot, and a different kind of clash.
CLANCY: The place, Gaza. The battle between Jews and other Jews.
Israeli settlers and troops are on opposing sides in Gaza. A group of settler youths attacked soldiers, police and Palestinians nearby following the arrest of several other Israelis who had clashed with the locals. The violence comes as tension mounts ahead of Israel's planned Gaza pullout.
Guy Raz joins us now live from Jerusalem with a bit more on what's happening this day -- Guy.
GUY RAZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Jim, with 47 days to go before Israel evacuates occupied areas in Gaza and a part of the northern West Bank, this country is deeply polarized with ultra-nationalist settlers becoming increasingly violent.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RAZ (voice-over): Tempers flaring amid Gaza'a settlement of Gush Katif. Israeli soldiers under orders to prepare this area for evacuation now facing a daily confrontation, the most radical settlers who oppose the pullout.
This abandoned building in southern Gaza now a settler stronghold. Most of the militants are young, some just kids.
Protester after protester is dragged out by soldiers. The Israeli army calls these citizens hooligans. Demonstrators call the soldiers traitors.
"Jews don't expel Jews," they shout. It's how they regard the Gaza pullout plan. Their comrades elsewhere attempted to bring the country to a standstill, lining a highway with nails in the morning, physically blocking the same roads later in the day. Traffic disruptions are now happening almost daily.
(on camera): And the most radical demonstrators are becoming emboldened by using increasingly provocative methods. By blocking roads and highways, they want fellow Israelis to experience as much inconvenience as possible.
(voice-over): Israel's government is vowing to punish its citizens who threaten violence. Prime Minister Ariel Sharon now says he's prepared to throw down an iron fist.
ARIEL SHARON, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER (through translator): I especially warn against attempts by a small lawless minority. This minority does not represent the majority of settlers who obey the law.
RAZ: The minority, though, is loud and organized. This graffiti in Gaza reads "Kahane lives," a reference to the late ultra- nationalist Rabbi Meir Kahane, a man the government of Israel considered a terrorist.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
RAZ: And Jim, commentators in Israel point out that the Gaza disengagement simply exposes just how powerful and intransigent the settler movement has become -- Jim.
CLANCY: Just to be honest, though, to look at the situation -- and there is -- we saw some of that chaos in Gaza, certainly the traffic being halted -- none of this is a surprise. In fact, some of the worst confrontations are not with the settlers in Gaza. I mean, there are some people that have specifically come in for a confrontation.
RAZ: There's no question about it, and as you saw in the story, many of these demonstrators are very young, some as young as 8, 9, 10 years old. We've seen them ourselves.
Families, large families bring their children to these demonstrations, and it certainly has led the Israeli government to question just how effective their tactics are in those Gaza settlements. Because up until today, tomorrow, the next week, these settlers continue to go into these settlements in Gaza, simply creating fortress-like conditions in some of these areas. Clearly a threat to those soldiers and police who will be evacuating those areas in 47 days from now -- Jim.
CLANCY: Guy Raz, reporting to us there live from Jerusalem, continuing to monitor that situation. Guy, thanks.
We're going to have more on the divide among Israelis coming up in just a matter of minutes.
Over to you, Zain.
VERJEE: Jim, Israeli warplanes have bombed positions in southern Lebanon. Israel called the air strikes after a Hezbollah shelling attack on a post in the disputed Shebaa Farms region. There are unconfirmed reports of four Israeli casualties.
Lebanon and Syria say Shebaa Farms is Lebanese territory. The U.N. says it's actually a part of Syria, occupied by Israel since 1967.
CLANCY: Well, now to President Bush's speech, his address on Iraq, an address that attempted to shore up what appears to be sagging support for the war there. But a CNN-"USA Today"-Gallup poll taken afterwards shows Americans are still deeply divided.
Forty-six percent of the respondents said they were, in their words, very positive about his speech. Twenty-eight percent were somewhat positive, and 24 percent had an overall negative position.
Now, we should note here that only people who watched this speech participated in this poll. Pollsters found that the audience for presidential speeches is usually partisan and, thus, more favorable to the president. VERJEE: Mr. Bush repeatedly linked the Iraq war to September 11 terror attacks on America. White House Correspondent Suzanne Malveaux has more on what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MALVEAUX (voice-over): With polls showing the majority of Americans believe it was a mistake to go to war in Iraq, President Bush tried to strike a balance between projecting realism and resolve.
BUSH: Like most Americans, I see the images of violence and bloodshed. Every picture is horrifying, and the suffering is real.
MALVEAUX: But the president argued the U.S. mission in Iraq is worth it.
BUSH: We fight today, because terrorists want to attack our country and kill our citizens, and Iraq is where they're making their stand.
MALVEAUX: In his 30-minute address, Mr. Bush took on his critics, rejecting setting a timetable to bring U.S. troops home.
BUSH: It would send the wrong message to the enemy, who would know that all they have to do is wait us out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, the military what never mixed on the messages. You know, a lot of that is what you see on TV, but at our level, it doesn't really affect us. We have our job to do and we do it, and the plan that he laid out, we'll carry out the mission.
MALVEAUX: And dismissing the suggestion more U.S. troops were needed.
BUSH: Sending more Americans would undermine our strategy of encouraging Iraqis to take the lead in this fight.
MALVEAUX: On six occasions in his speech, the president invoked the memories of September 11, to support his argument that the war in Iraq is linked to that fateful day.
BUSH: The only way our enemies can succeed is if we forget the lessons of September the 11th, if we abandon the Iraqi people to a man like Zarqawi, and if we yield the future of the Middle East to men like Bin Laden. For the sake of our nation's security, this will not happen on my watch.
MALVEAUX (on camera): Part of the White House strategy is to emphasize two tracts, a military one and a political one, to make the case that there is progress that is being made on the ground in Iraq that Americans aren't necessarily seeing on television.
Suzanne Malveaux, CNN, the White House.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VERJEE: So how are people reacting? We checked in both with people in the United States and in Iraq.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think we should totally re-evaluate the whole situation. I just think our motives are completely based on energy and oil interests and trying to make our country stronger at the expense of their country. And I just don't think that's right.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think that he has a point that it's difficult to pull out when you're fully into something. And pulling out could make it worse for those people.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I really think that we should leave there, because there's a lot going on here in the United States, and we need all the money we can here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I don't think this will change anything from Iraq's internal problems, such as water shortages, electricity outages, bad services and other aspects of life. Iraqis pay no heed to such a speech. They pay attention to their internal affairs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): There is semiconsensus in the streets of Iraq that the presence of U.S. troops at this stage is a security and political necessity. And those who raise such an issue, they raise it for political reasons and not a real demand.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VERJEE: Later on we're going to get reaction to the Bush address from U.S. troops in one of the most dangerous places in Iraq for those troops, Falluja -- Jim.
CLANCY: Well, a high-stakes battle in high altitude in Afghanistan. U.S. officials are now saying ground fire may have indeed brought down an American military helicopter. A Chinook in Afghanistan is in that rugged region on the Pakistani border. Hanging in the balance, the fate of 17 U.S. service members onboard.
Pentagon Correspondent Barbara Starr joining us now live from the Pentagon -- Barbara.
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jim, no word yet on the fate of those 17 service members that were onboard the MH- 57 Special Operations helicopter when it went down yesterday in this very remote rugged area of eastern Afghanistan.
We are told that the weather is very bad up there. Today there is rain and wind. They have not been able to bring in any helicopter- borne rescue forces.
You see some of the video of this region shot in the past. It tells you just how tough the job is going to be. We are told the wreckage is now lying at 10,000 feet, up and down a very steep mountainside. Now, earlier today in Afghanistan, the military spokesman detailed why it is that the U.S. military believes it was enemy fire that brought the chopper down.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COL. JAMES YONTS, COALITION SPOKESMAN: The aircraft was taking indirect fire, direct fire from elements on the ground. The aircraft, as it was dropping off those personnel, crashed. So we know that it was taking the fire. Whether or not that caused it to crash, we do not know yet.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
STARR: What the helicopter was doing at the time was, in fact, bringing in reinforcements to troops already engaged in firefights on the ground. There was ground combat, reinforcements were called for.
In fact, four Chinook helicopters came in. One of them noticing this enemy fire that they believe brought down one of the helicopters.
In addition, there were A-10 aircraft -- U.S. Air Force A-10 aircraft -- flying overhead at the time. They saw the enemy fire. They rolled in against those insurgent sites and launched their rockets.
We are told today even as night falls, they are trying to move additional ground forces into the area to continue to try to secure the site, but so far they have not been able to get those airborne helicopter search and rescue forces in -- Jim.
CLANCY: All right. Barbara Starr, live from the Pentagon, continuing to monitor that situation.
VERJEE: More than a month away from the planned Gaza pullout, Israeli settlers are already venting their anger.
CLANCY: Coming up, a closer look on those sometimes violent efforts of the settlers, as well as shifting opinions of Israelis themselves.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CLANCY: Opponents of Israel's Gaza pullout making good on their vow they were going to disrupt traffic, and drawing attention to their stand. Protests taking place on major highways in Israel at this hour.
Police also out in force. They're using water cannons, as you see here, to break up a human roadblock. This is on the main road to Jerusalem.
Welcome back. You're watching an hour of world news on CNN International.
The protests in Israel come on the shifting public opinion among Israelis on the withdrawal. Joining us now from Jerusalem to discuss the matter a little further, Michael Oren, author of the book "Six Days of War."
Michael, thanks for being with us. As people look on from a distance and they see these protests, what's really happening in Israel? How deep is the divide?
MICHAEL OREN, AUTHOR, "SIX DAYS OF WAR": Well, good evening from Jerusalem, Jim.
The divide is quite deep. It's deeper than these protests would tend to indicate. The protests along the street, the blockade of major Israeli highways, is being carried out by a small minority of Israelis, as Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has said.
It's really just a small group of radicals. But that small group of radicals is a tip of a relatively large iceberg in Israeli society.
Recent polls indicate a sharp decline in the support among even mainstream Israelis for the disengagement. Right now it's just about neck and neck. About 50 percent of the population still in favor of disengagement, but about 45 percent against, though I would venture to say that the reason for this decline in support of disengagement is not because this small minority is blocking highways.
Israelis know, as Americans, do not particularly look with favor on having their highways blocked on their way home from work. There are other factors involved, as well.
CLANCY: What kind of other factors are you talking about, vis-a- vis the government and perhaps the future of negotiations with the Palestinians over the West Bank?
OREN: Well, I think that from the settlers' point of view, certainly they know that the Gaza pullout is really only the first step toward larger Israeli concessions in the West Bank, and they're very much concerned for the 250,000 Israelis who live in West Bank settlements, as opposed to only the 8,000 settlers who live in Gaza settlements.
But I think for the majority of Israelis, the mainstream, again, I think the recent weeks have indicated to them the great human price involved in pulling even 8,000 Israelis out of their homes. And most of these people living in Gaza, keep in mind, Jim, are not radicals. They're law-abiding Israeli citizens. And Israelis cannot help but sympathize with their plight. They're going to be plucked out of their homes.
There is also, as you indicated, the Palestinian factor. And that is that there has been a sharp increase, escalation, in Palestinian terrorist attacks on both sides of the green line against Israeli settlers and Israeli civilians beyond the '67 borders. And Israelis are increasingly afraid that the disengagement will be interpreted by the Palestinians as a sign of Israeli weakness and that terror will actually increase in the wake of the disengagement and not decrease. CLANCY: All right. They're afraid the West Bank will follow the route of Gaza. The Palestinians say, we're afraid that it's Gaza first and last. And, indeed, that is what the prime minister is promising the right wing of his party.
OREN: Well, he may promise whatever he will. Remember, Israel is a democracy, and Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, as an elected official, has to respond to mainstream public opinion. Mainstream public opinion right now is willing to make painful concessions, even on the West Bank, should a Palestinian leadership emerge that is willing to promise the majority of Israelis security in return for those concessions.
CLANCY: All right. A lot at stake. We want to thank you, Mr. Oren, for being with us and talking a little bit about this.
Michael Oren, author of the book "Six Days of War."
VERJEE: Let's take a look now at some stories making news in the United States.
The White House is expected to endorse almost all the recommendations made by a commission studying ways to improve U.S. intelligence efforts. One key proposal calls for consolidating intelligence-gathering and analysis operations involving nuclear, biological and chemical weapons. The commission issued a report in March but found the U.S. was "dead wrong" in almost all of its prewar intelligence on Iraq.
NASA's chief says the space agency is, in his words, "in pretty good shape" to resume shuttle flights next month with the launch of Discovery. But a final decision won't come until a flight readiness review later this week. The shuttle fleet has been grounded since 2003, when Columbia disintegrated over Earth. An oversight panel NASA still has not met several safety milestones.
Revised design for the new tower to be built at the site of the World Trade Center has been released. The design of the structure was changed after the New York Police Department expressed security concerns. The building, dubbed "Freedom Tower," will be 541 meters, or 1,776 feet tall, making it the world's tallest building.
CLANCY: Well, just ahead we're going to have a check of the world's financial markets.
VERJEE: Plus, the case against Sudan. The international prosecutor looking into crimes in the Darfur region of western Sudan outlines the extent of his case.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CLANCY: There has been another surprise announcement from the president of the Philippines in the face of mounting political and public pressure. Gloria Macapagal Arroyo now saying that her husband is going to voluntarily leave the country to protect her credibility as she fights to save her presidency. Mrs. Arroyo's husband has been accused of influence peddling and involvement in a kickback scheme, although nothing has yet been proven. Monday, President Arroyo admitted it was her voice on wiretaps of a conversation with an election official. The tapes have led to accusations her party was involved in election fraud.
VERJEE: Let's check in now on what's moving the markets in the United States.
(STOCK MARKET REPORT)
VERJEE: We're going to update our stories just ahead.
CLANCY: Plus, more reaction to the U.S. president's speech.
JANE ARRAF, CNN SR. BAGHDAD CORRESPONDENT: I'm Jane Arraf, in Falluja. We're going to be talking about what soldiers and Marines really feel about that here on the ground.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CLANCY: Welcome back to "YOUR WORLD TODAY" on CNN International. I'm Jim Clancy.
VERJEE: And I'm Zain Verjee.
Here are some of the top stories we're following.
Israeli settlers and soldiers have clashed in Gaza. The settlers pelted the soldiers with rocks as soldiers approached an abandoned house where the (INAUDIBLE) had holed up. The settlers are resisting the government's plan to pull out of Gaza in August. Prime Minister Ariel Sharon vows an iron fist would be used against extremist opponents of the plan.
CLANCY: The fate of 17 U.S. service members aboard a U.S. military helicopter that crashed in Afghanistan remains unknown at this hour. The crew of another helicopter at this scene reported seeing ground fire before the crash. The Chinook helicopter, similar to this one, was traveling with three other helicopters, transporting additional forces into the rugged region along the Afghanistan/Pakistan border.
VERJEE: Political opponents are accusing U.S. President George W. Bush of exploiting the 9/11 attacks to justify the war in Iraq. One top Democrat in the House says there is no connection between the two. In a speech on Tuesday, Mr. Bush described Iraq as the latest battlefield in a war that began on 9/11.
CLANCY: Now we have the perspectives of two American families who watched that speech, one a Republican household, the other a military family in California.
Rusty Dornin has the first of these two reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) RUSTY DORNIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT, (voice over): Many of their neighbors are anti-war, anti-Bush. That's made it difficult at times for the Downs family. For them, it's about supporting a young first lieutenant in the Marines, Philip Jr. He's just returned from a seven-month tour in Iraq and wants to go back in November. Before the speech, the Downs said they wanted to hear a message from President Bush with attitude.
PHILIP DOWNS, FATHER: I would like him to make an impassioned plea to the American populous to steal their resolve and stay the course.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Who need to know that America will not leave before the job is done.
PHILIP DOWNS: (INAUDIBLE) as clear as possible.
He clearly outlined the reasons why we're not going to set an arbitrary date to pull out or, you know, diminish our presence there.
DEBBIE DOWNS, MOTHER: And I just hope that more people get that message from tonight's speech, that there is a reason why we're there and it's not for oil. It goes beyond that.
DORNIN: Younger brother Patrick doesn't think the speech will change things for anyone who has made up their mind about the war.
PATRICK DOWNS, YOUNGER BROTHER: It wasn't really a persuasive speech so much, but telling of what he's going to do, what he plans to do. You know, he's not going to set a date of when they're leaving or anything like that. So he puts it out there for people to make up their own minds.
DORNIN: The Downs are fond of saying, never fall in love with a politician and say they're not always pro-Bush. But when it comes to the war, when the president talks, they listened. And with a son going back to Iraq soon, they hope others did too.
Rusty Dornin, CNN, Terra Linda, California.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRIS HUNTINGTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is Chris Huntington in Cold Spring, New York. The Kasparians live just across the Hudson River from the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, in a community well aware of what is at stake in Iraq.
CAROL KASPARIAN, VOTED FOR BUSH TWICE: You have a lot of people who support the war and are very ardent supporters and then we have those people who are just totally against it. I'm concerned about Iraq becoming another Vietnam.
HUNTINGTON: Mike is a supervisor the New York State Banking Department and Carol, a former manager with Pepsi and IBM, is now raising their four children. Both Republicans, they helped elect President Bush twice.
MIKE KASPARIAN, VOTED FOR BUSH TWICE: If we were given some sort of concrete evidence that things are going in the right direction rather than just seeing the nightly car bombs and the destruction and the death toll, that might go a long way.
HUNTINGTON: The Kasparians are somewhat divided on whether President Bush delivered that reassurance.
C. KASPARIAN: I mean, he sort of didn't give me a timetable, which I wanted to hear, but I understand why. So I think he did really well. I'm happy with his performance.
M. KASPARIAN: I don't know that there is a real end in sight, based on what I've heard tonight.
HUNTINGTON: While the Kasparians discount the link between September 11th and the war in Iraq, they do agree that the mission there is in some measure a fight against terrorism. But they differ on whether history will judge the U.S. mission there to be the right one.
C. KASPARIAN: Definitely, I think, in my opinion it is.
M. KASPARIAN: I think history will be the judge. I think the jury is out on that. It depends on how it ends.
HUNTINGTON: Chris Huntington, CNN, Cold Spring, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VERJEE: For some reaction from Iraq to the U.S. president's speech, we go now to CNN's Jane Arraf. She's embedded with U.S. troops in Falluja U.S. and Iraqi troops have really zeroed in the Al Anbar province in recent weeks in a major clamp-down against insurgents.
Jane, what are U.S. soldiers in Falluja saying about President Bush's speech last night?
ARRAF: Zain, first, we have to point out that a lot of them wouldn't have seen it. It was on very early in the morning. But apart from that, these are places where they don't have television for the most part. They might catch a glimpse of it in the dining hall. In a lot of these places, they don't have a lot of things. They're just out there working every day.
But they're the last people that anyone has to tell that it's difficult and dangerous here in Iraq. But one of the things that we found in the past couple of days, going back to Falluja after that major battle, is that the marines and the soldiers here feel like they're actually accomplishing something, that things are moving, that it's a less dangerous place and that they see progress -- Zain.
VERJEE: Do they feel that that's been accomplished in Falluja? I mean, the U.S. military really struck at insurgents back in November of 2004. Is there a sense that in Falluja the insurgency has rebounded, regrouped?
ARRAF: It has, inevitably, regrouped a little bit and that's what happened. The civilians have been let back into the city. I don't know if you remember the aftermath of that battle, but that city was deserted. It was almost destroyed, and people have gradually come back. And as we've gone through those streets, we have seen people coming out, rebuilding their mosques, rebuilding their homes.
But along with that, along with the flow of people, insurgents have also come back in. There was a terrible suicide car bomb last week. There continue to be attacks. It's part of that balance of letting the city come back to life, but at the same time, taking the risk that the insurgents are coming back, as well -- Zain.
VERJEE: What are U.S. soldiers that you're talking to, Jane, there, saying about Iraqi troops, how good they are, how reliable they are and if they're, in fact, up to the task at all?
ARRAF: Well, we spent the day on patrol, actually, with Iraqi troops, Iraqi soldiers who are being trained by American soldiers and by American marines. And as we've travelled throughout the country, generally what we've found is that there are some things that Iraqi soldiers are doing well. They're learning from each other. They're learning from their American trainers.
There are still great difficulties in many parts of this country with recruiting the right kind of soldiers, with making sure that insurgents haven't crept in. It is a struggle. It's a struggle with the army, it's a struggle with the police. But here in Falluja, they do seem to be getting out there in pretty great numbers and actually beginning to patrol -- Zain.
VERJEE: Very quickly, Jane, you had a chance to talk to some of the Sunni population there in Falluja. Do they want to get involved in the political process, or do they see the insurgency as their only route?
ARRAF: It's absolutely fascinating. We went to a city council meeting, and we have to remember that this was a city that, for all intents and purposes, was destroyed. There was no city council. There is no police. There really wasn't much of anything. But there is now and there's a very lively debate that resulted in arguments, people walking out, but at the end of it, coming back to talk.
And what we were hearing from the sheiks, the local leaders, the tribal officials, is that Sunnis made a mistake. Here in the Sunni heartland, they have to take control again. They have to be part of that political process. And what many of them are telling us is that this time, this next election, they are going to go out and vote in greater numbers, so that they can be a part of this country, as well -- Zain.
VERJEE: CNN's Jane Arraf, embedded with U.S. troops in Falluja. Thanks a lot, Jane.
CLANCY: The prosecutor for the international criminal court investigating crimes in Sudan appeared before the U.N. Security Council to talk a little bit about his activities.
Senior United Nations correspondent Richard Roth joins us now with the latest on that. Richard, what did he have to tell the council?
RICHARD ROTH, SENIOR U.N. CORRESPONDENT: Well, the presentation technical in nature, but the presence historic. First ever appearance before the U.N. Security Council by the lead prosecutor for the relatively new international criminal court. And Luis Moreno Ocampo dealt totally with Darfur, Sudan. And said that his panel, his investigation, has collected 3,000 documents, talked to hundreds of people and he offered this early conclusion.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LUIS MORENO OCAMPO, ICC PROSECUTER: There is a significant amount of credible information this close in the commission of great crimes within the jurisdiction of the court, having taken place in Darfur. These crimes include the killing of thousands of civilians, the widespread destruction and looting of villages, leading to the displacement of approximately 1.9 million civilians.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROTH: And those refugees, hundreds of thousands of them, are still out there in Darfur. Just because this panel is investigating, it does not mean the violence has stopped there. The prosecutor did ask for cooperation from Sudan. It's unknown yet whether the government will, indeed, allow him to take suspects out to the Hague.
This is still too early and hypothetical, said both sides really, the prosecutor and the Sudanese ambassador here. Human rights experts said, though, the council,, the Security Council, is going to have to come to the prosecutor's aid.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD DICKER, HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH: What I was struck by was his message to the council that you've got to support my effort, because we've seen in Bosnia, we've seen in Sierra Leone, that the council creates these justice opportunities, and then when the courts run into problems, the council is nowhere to be seen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROTH: The political backdrop to this, Jim, of course, the United States for years opposed this international criminal court, still does, but allowed an exemption of sorts when it permitted cases involving Darfur to be referred to the International Criminal Court for prosecution -- Jim.
CLANCY: Richard, the bottom line here, and a lot of people are talking about it, if you prosecute, if you name individuals involved in what's going on now, the killings, and the rapes and the burnings, things like this, you're going to discourage it. Is this criminal court ready to act fast enough? ROTH: I don't think so. The prosecutor told me a couple of weeks ago he still needs months to build this case. This is a huge country, and it's going to take time, and it hasn't really done that much, I think people said, to stop any of the violence. It's really pressure from the Security Council, which has really been inconsistent when it decides to talk tough and when it decides to let the rebel groups talk to the government and try to make peace on their own.
CLANCY: All right, prosecutor at the Security Council, but the jury is still out. Richard Roth at the United Nations, thank you.
Still ahead, we'll have the focus back on the prison facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
VERJEE: U.S. lawmakers hold hearings on allegations of prisoner abuse there. We're going to speak to a human rights lawyer on the issue, next on YOUR WORLD TODAY.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CLANCY: U.S. lawmakers are taking a closer look at the detention of terror suspects in Guantanamo Bay. The U.S. facility in Cuba has drawn international criticism over the alleged abuse of detainees there. U.S. lawmakers from both parties fear the prison has an image problem it's sharing with the U.S. overall because of the claims of abuse. Some have demanded it be shutdown. Guantanamo's top commanders, though, testifying Wednesday before the U.S. House Armed Services Committee.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRIG. GEN. JAY HOOD, JOINT FORCE, GUANTANAMO: While providing humane detention, we continue to exploit, collect and exploit actionable intelligence that has helped our nation prosecute the war on terrorism.
Every week we learn something that assists in piecing together the strategic mosaic of international terrorism, and frequently we gather information that is of operational value to commanders currently engaged in other theaters.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VERJEE: More than 500 prisoners are currently being held at Guantanamo Bay. For a closer look at the prison and the allegations of abuse, we turn now to Jumana Musa. She is a human rights attorney and advocate at Amnesty International. Thanks so much for joining us.
JUMANA MUSA, AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL: Thank you for having me.
VERJEE: Jumana, they're saying, look, we're getting good information. The intelligence has been actionable. It's allowing them to piece everything together, and it's important in the fight against terror. Your response? MUSA: Well, this is what we've heard from the beginning, but we've seen a number of things. First we've seen FBI e-mails that have been disclosed through a lawsuit, where they were concerned not only about the types of interrogation techniques, but the type of intelligence it was generating. And I believe one of the quotes was the intelligence being gathered was quote, "suspect at best."
And I think the other thing we've seen is many intelligence experts saying, you know, at this point, three-plus years in, what kind of active intelligence would these people continue to have that's relevant today to what's happening?
VERJEE: OK, but the administration is saying, look, these aren't petty car thieves. These are terrorists or terrorist facilitators, bomb makers and so forth, and you can't just let them go.
MUSA: Well, I don't think anybody is suggesting you take a hardcore armed group that wants to attack civilians and sort of let them loose on the streets. What we've been calling for, if these people are, in fact, hardened terrorists as we've been told, the worst of the worst, there must be evidence to that effect, they should be prosecuted and they should be put in jail.
But the idea that you could say these people are suspected of doing very things. Therefore we can hold them indefinitely for the rest of their natural lives without charge, without trial is what's offensive to groups like Amnesty International and other people around the world.
VERJEE: The administration has said, look, the Geneva Conventions don't apply to prisoners here. They are unlawful combatants, and therefore they don't have access to the rights that you think they should have.
MUSA: Well, whether or not these particular prisoners get "prisoner of war" status, it doesn't mean that they're not subject to any kind of rule of law whatsoever, which is what the administration has been arguing, if we hold them in Guantanamo, U.S. law won't apply to them, international law won't apply to them, that somehow Guantanamo exists as a law-free zone and that people can be held indefinitely. That is what doesn't square with the law, not the idea that every single person needs to be considered a prisoner of war, but that every single person does need to be subject to the rule of law.
VERJEE: One U.S. lawmaker that's just been to Guantanamo Bay had this to say. I'd like you to listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. DUNCAN HUNTER (R), CALIFORNIA: What we saw was not, quote, "the gulag of our times." Instead, we saw a world-class detention facility where detainees representing a threat to our national security are well fed, given access to top-notch medical facilities and provided an opportunity to obtain legal representation, which incidentally uniformed soldiers under the Geneva Convention are not given. They do not have a right to a lawyer. (END VIDEO CLIP)
Duncan Hunter there, the Republican committee chairman. Your response to what he has described?
MUSA: Well, first I'd like to say, we certainly welcome Congress' initiative to look into this and conduct oversight. It's an incredibly important part of the separation of powers and checks and balances in the U.S. government. And I think nobody will deny that the situation currently at Guantanamo is a vast improvement over the open-air cages next to a dump with vultures circling overhead, which is where detainees were held when they first went to Guantanamo.
The issues currently at hand are number one, a large body of allegations of torture and ill treatment that has yet to be addressed, independently, thoroughly and transparently, and number two, the continuing indefinite and arbitrary detention without charge of hundreds of people. Those are the two issues that we're looking to address, not in particular how they're being fed. We're not charging that people are being starved to death. We're charging that they're being held outside of the law, and that's what our major concern is.
VERJEE: Jumana Musa, a human rights attorney and advocate also at Amnesty International, thank you so much for joining us.
MUSA: Thank you.
CLANCY: In other news, Canada appears to be well on its way to becoming the third country to legalize gay and lesbian marriages. Despite protests from conservatives there, lawmakers in the House of Commons passed a bill Tuesday night giving equal rights to same-sex marriages. The measure is expected to pass the Senate and could become law by the end of July. Belgium and the Netherlands are the only two countries thus far to legalize gay and lesbian marriage.
Well, let's check some of the other stories making news around the U.S. Fire officials now report 21 wildfires like these have been burning more than 300,000 hectares across the seven states of the U.S. The largest wildfire is near Phoenix, Arizona. About 20 percent of it is contained. Officials fear, though, the blaze could still spread. No evacuations have been ordered yet.
In southwest Utah, residents of a housing development that was threatened by a wildfire have now been able to return to their homes.
The Federal Reserve begins a two-day meeting later today. Experts predicting it's going to announce the ninth straight increase in short-term interest rates in a year. The Federal Reserve uses a key rate to keep inflation and the economy balanced. It is tied to the rate banks then charge their customers.
Analysts say prosecutors made a mistake in trying the former head of HealthSouth in his hometown, Birmingham, Alabama. Richard Scrushy was acquitted on 36 charges that included fraud and money laundering. They say his heavy involvement in local churches had garnered him strong support. Scrushy was the first CEO charged under the Sarbanes- Oxley law, installed after a wave of corporate scandals.
VERJEE: There's more to come here on YOUR WORLD TODAY.
CLANCY: Including the World Cup and the war room.
VERJEE: What do they have to do with each other and why? Stay tuned.
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VERJEE: Welcome back. The World Cup is more than a year away in Berlin, Germany.
CLANCY: But it's never too early to start planning when you have to do all the security arrangements. There are high-tech gizmos, a lot of plans.
VERJEE: A lot of different things are in there. And what's happening is that some of the fans are complaining that a few of the measures are just way over the top, as we hear from Chris Burns.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRIS BURNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): From a sky box, the police commander of Berlin's Olympic stadium shows me how to joystick one of 30 cameras that will watch fans here during next year's World Cup. They can spin 360 degrees to monitor the 74,000 people who will pack this stadium during the cup final next July, one of many precautions against hooligans or terrorists.
The World Cup in France seven years ago saw outbreaks of fighting among fans. The Munich Olympics in 1972 were ruined by an attack by Palestinian militants.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): We think preparation is the best way to avoid them.
BURNS: This week's Confederations Cup in Germany is part of that preparation for players and authorities alike. Among measures being tested, a tank-style, robot-driven camera. At Berlin's stadium's gate, workers are installing these machines to scan tickets that will include the fan's name and address. A new underground police station has holding cells for rowdies.
(on camera): And this one's for guest's team's fans. They want to make sure the fans from both teams don't mix.
(voice-over): Berlin's stadium is among a dozen World Cup venues tied into a kind of war room at Germany's Interior Ministry, which will help coordinate as many as 40,000 police nationwide.
(on camera): How quickly can you send more police, theoretically?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) in minutes, yes. BURNS (voice-over): Interior minister Otto Schily says his British counterpart will send hooligan spotters and possibly uniformed officers.
CHARLES CLARKE, BRITISH HOME SECRETARY: And our police are cooperating very closely with the German police.
BURNS: But some fans at the Confederations Cup games protested police searches, surveillance and other measures they consider heavy- handed.
(on camera): When the fans come through here, they're screened and they're put in different categories. Why do some fans think that's unfair?
RALF BUSCH, FAN-PROJEKT BERLIN: Because it's -- it's a kind of stigma, you know. For example, being category B, which means sometimes violent.
BURNS (voice-over): Interior Minister Schily defends the measures.
OTTO SCHILLY, INTERIOR MINISTER OF GERMANY: I don't think we are too tough. It's necessary.
BURNS: He met with fan leaders and promised further talks, but they were unimpressed.
MATTHIAS BETTAG, ALLIANCE OF ACTIVE FOOTBALL FANS: For the fans, if the situation as now would go on, I see the big problem that the fans would ignore or even hate the World Cup.
BURNS: It's a delicate balance for German authorities, trying to maintain security without spoiling the atmosphere at the world's most popular sports tournament.
Chris Burns, CNN, Berlin.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CLANCY: Well, there is more news straight ahead here on CNN. I'm Jim Clancy.
VERJEE: And I'm Zain Verjee. This is CNN.
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