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Nancy Grace

Nancy Grace for June 30, 2005, CNNHN

Aired June 30, 2005 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news from the Idaho courtroom. This 16-year-old, Sarah Johnson, sentenced to life without parole for the ambush and double murders of her mother and father.
And the Son of Sam, also known as the .44 Caliber Killer, he terrorized the city of New York hunting down and murdering young couples. Now, a cold-blooded killer, David Berkowitz behind bars diary are set to hit the bookshelves. That`s right, at your bookstore. Tonight, the mother of Berkowitz`s final victim speaks out.

And we go live to Aruba and the disappearance of the 18-year-old American girl Natalee Holloway.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. And I want to thank you for being with us tonight.

Breaking news across the country in America`s courtrooms. Tonight, we go live to Aruba and Karl Penhaul in the Natalee Holloway disappearance.

And Lady Justice is spinning like a top tonight. The Son of Sam, the serial killer who stalked the city of New York in a year-long murderous spree, is publishing a book. That`s right. And tonight, his victims` families are speaking out.

But first, let`s go Idaho and the double-murder trial of Sarah Johnson. Then just 16-years-old, this high-schooler ambushed and murdered her own mom and dad. Her mom, sleeping in bed at the time, her dad, just coming out of the shower.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SARAH JOHNSON, CONVICTED OF KILLING PARENTS: I loved my parents, and I love my family. I`m deeply grieving the loss of my parents, as well as the loss of my family, my home, my friends and my community.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, according to her, it`s all about her, never once expressing any remorse over the shooting death with a high-powered weapon of her own mom and dad.

Tonight, in Boise, Idaho, Sarah Johnson`s lawyer is with us -- he`s a trial veteran -- Bob Pangburn; on the phone, Johnson family friend of over 20 years -- she played Pinnacle with Diane and Alan Johnson for 20 years -- Marguerite Sowersby; in L.A., defense attorney David Wohl (ph); in New York, defense attorney Bruce Marquette (ph); in L.A., psychoanalyst Bethany Marshall.

But first, let`s go out to Boise, Idaho, and KLIX Radio news director, James Tidmarsh.

James, bring us up-to-date.

JAMES TIDMARSH, NEWS DIRECTOR, KLIX RADIO: Well, Nancy, as you just saw, the day started off with Sarah giving an emotional statement, not admitting guilt, not saying she was sorry, but instead asking the court for leniency and saying that she would be a responsible citizen if she was let out.

The court took a brief recess, and then when they came back, the judge started listing the reasons or the way that he came up with his sentencing that he did. One of the things that he brought out was, you know, did you kill -- would you kill again if you got out?

And the judge looked at her and said, "You know, we don`t know if you would kill again. Your parents are dead. And you know, given the chance again, you only get one set of parents, so we don`t know."

The other thing was, was this premeditated? I know that there`s been some talk, especially around our area, you know, did the anti-depressant make her do it? And the judge says no, and you know, "You premeditated this. You had the bathrobe. You had the shotgun. You had the time. You had everything right there."

And so basically, when it came down to it, after an hour-and-a-half of listing the ways that he came up with his reason, his sentencing, he sentenced her to two life sentences fixed...

GRACE: Life without parole, life without the possibility of parole.

With me, everyone, the news director of KLIX Radio, James Tidmarsh, in the courtroom today. I had a chance to speak to Sarah`s mother`s mother. Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAT DISHMAN, SARAH JOHNSON`S GRANDMOTHER: Well, the thing that disturbed me the most was the fact that we even had to have a sentencing. This whole thing has been so tragic, but the judge gave a very fair sentencing. And we just have to go on from here.

DEAN DISHMAN, SARAH JOHNSON`S GRANDFATHER: We had a lot of good times together. It`s a tragic loss and one that`s going to take some time to get used to, I`m afraid.

S. JOHNSON: I loved my parents, and I love my family. I`m deeply grieving the loss of my parents, as well as the loss of my family, my home, my friends, and my community.

I am very thankful for the love and support that my adopted family has given to me. With the guidance of the Lord and the continued love and support of those that believe in me, I hope to rebuild my life and prove that I can be a productive member of society.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, she`s calling on the Lord in court today. But according to prosecutors, she planned the murders of her father and mother with a high-powered gun three days before the shooting.

Why, Bethany Marshall? Because she was involved with an illegal immigrant involved with methamphetamine, for Pete`s sake, and her parents disagreed with her dating Bruno Santos, and they threatened to break it up. Her response? To gun down her parents.

You know, Bethany, the reality is that parricide, which is slang for parenticide, is very rare, much less when a girl, a girl, a teenager commits parricide.

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Parricide, in fact, it only accounts for less than 2 percent of all homicides. But what you see with parricide is usually there`s child mistreatment involved or the child`s a sociopath. And we know which option is the right one. It`s option number two.

She`s a sociopath, which means she had no attachment or consideration towards her parents. She treated them like objects. And when they stood in the way of her relationship with her young lover, she blew them away. And that`s simply put, that is what happened.

GRACE: I want to go to a friend I made on the airwaves. Her name is Marguerite Sowersby, very dear friend of Diane and Alan Johnson.

Everybody, Diane Johnson was asleep in her bed, OK, when her daughter came in and unloaded a high-powered rifle on her mom, blowing her head off. On the front of Sarah Johnson`s bed robe was her mother`s blood and brain matter. She ambushed her father, Alan, as he was coming out of the shower to investigate the loud sound he heard. Both of them dead.

Marguerite Sowersby is joining us now by phone. Marguerite, what do you think of the sentence, life without parole for a 16-year-old girl?

MARGUERITE SOWERSBY, JOHNSON FAMILY FRIEND: Well, unfortunately, Nancy, I totally agree with the judge`s -- you know, how he went through and explained what his decision-making process was. I think he was very articulate and did a very fine job.

Really made us all think about that she had other choices. This was not her only option. And there was a real sense from the family of relief, because now we don`t have to be afraid of any other family -- be it theirs or a new family she would make -- of ever being in danger again.

GRACE: Marguerite, how long did you know Diane and Alan Johnson?

SOWERSBY: I`m thinking about 22 years, long time.

GRACE: How did you know them? What did you guys do together?

SOWERSBY: Well, we played pinnacle. We had two different card groups. We`d play once a month and laugh and just really had a great time.

We belonged to trap shooting clubs. And you know, we knew a lot of the same people. We went to the same church. Our kids were in the same class. So we had a lot of our lives just walked together down that path...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Marguerite, what was Sarah like growing up?

SOWERSBY: Well, Sarah was just a different kind of kid. She was always -- it was always about her. She was always very self-centered. She always wanted to be the center of the attention and really spoiled. Really would, you know, just not an easy kid to be around, not a kid that you wanted to spend time hanging out with.

GRACE: Marguerite, before we go to break, would you explain to the viewers what happened when you found out your friend, Diane, and her husband, Alan, had been killed? And you get to the house and you see Sarah Johnson.

SOWERSBY: Well, the first thing I did was I hugged Sarah (INAUDIBLE) and I threw my arms around her as she did me. And she said, "What am I going to do? Where am I going to live? Who`s going to take care of me?"

I said, "Sarah, you`ll always have a home with me." And I sincerely meant it, Nancy, at that time and not knowing, you know, the circumstances. Yes, I would have opened my heart and my home to this child because her parents were my friends.

But then she just kind of went on and proceeded to do, you know, her own thing. It was like, OK, I`ve used you up. Now I`m going to go on to the next person and use -- you know, get sympathy and attention, and then it was the next person. And it was just very strange from the very beginning.

GRACE: Well, I still have stuck in my mind, Marguerite -- and I`ll argue with her defense attorney, Bob Pangburn, when we get back -- she went to get her nails done very quickly after the double murders.

And told the manicurist -- you know, why is it, Bob Pangburn, everybody blabs to their manicurist, "I just want to get on with my life." This was within a week of her mom and dad being gunned down in the house with her.

Everybody, quick break. We will be back in Idaho. One of most unusual cases in the justice system, parricide, parenticide, at the hands of a 16-year-old girl, no history of mental problems, no history of juvenile justice problems.

Also, we`re about to take you live down to Aruba. Karl Penhaul is standing by with the latest in the search for Natalee Holloway. Please stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BOB PANGBURN, SARAH JOHNSON`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: To put a person, a 16-year-old child, to punish a 16-year-old child with life imprisonment would be a sentence -- without the potential for parole -- would be a sentence that would shock everyday people. It is not in keeping with what our society is about to punish children like adults.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But Sarah Johnson took away the life of her parents, and because of that, her life should be done, as well. It is the only just punishment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

S. JOHNSON: I loved my parents. And I love my family. I`m deeply grieving the loss of my parents, as well as the loss of my family, my home, my friends, and my community.

I am very thankful for the love and support that my adopted family has given to me. With the guidance of the Lord and the continued love and support of those that believe in me, I hope to rebuild my life and prove that I can be a productive member of society.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Sounds like she`s not sorry she did it, but she sure doesn`t want to go to hell for it. That`s Sarah Johnson, 16-years-old at the time police accused her of gunning down her mom and dad with a high-powered weapon. Why? Because they had a little problem with her dating an illegal immigrant with an methamphetamine problem. Yes, that`s right.

So answer? No curfew, no taking away the cell phone. She gunned her parents down. Diane and Alan Johnson exist no more. They were ambushed in their own home.

Welcome back, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I`m waiting to take you down live to Aruba.

Standing by, CNN correspondent Karl Penhaul, there on the scene in Aruba, and the latest in the Natalee Holloway case.

But very quickly, I want to go Sarah Johnson`s defense attorney. Now, Bob Pangburn, there`s no doubt about it. You`re a trial veteran. You`ve tried a lot of cases. You`ve won a lot of cases. Can`t take that away from you.

But I thought maybe you might coach your client to cry for somebody other than herself in court today, like her mom and dad?

BOB PANGBURN, ATTORNEY FOR SARAH JOHNSON: Well, I think she did cry for her mother and father. She does miss her mother and father.

GRACE: Bob, not once did she exhibit any remorse. She said she was grieving -- she -- she`s grieving. She never mentioned -- when I think of my mom and dad, six feet under, that I`ll never speak to them again, you know who I was talking to on the way over here tonight, Bob Pangburn? Talking to my parents about your client. Now, why didn`t she mention them in her address to the court?

PANGBURN: You know, I`ve talked to my parents, too, a lot about this case. And they, in fact, believe she`s innocent.

GRACE: Why?

PANGBURN: Well, because they know what the evidence showed, which clearly showed reasonable doubt. But that`s not what this case was about today. And I wasn`t going argue with the judge yet again about whether or not this case was proved beyond a reasonable doubt.

What this case -- the proceeding today was about sentencing, not about Sarah Johnson, but about what has to happen or what should happen to punish a child. And in this case, the court chose to follow what I believe is the ultimate in Idaho law. And in a very draconian way, chose to give her life without parole.

GRACE: Bob, can I ask you a question?

PANGBURN: I simply can`t equate that with decent society.

GRACE: Bob, decent society, you said decent society? I`m trying to envision Diane Johnson lying asleep in her own bed. Now, you said there is reasonable doubt your girl, Sarah Johnson, did not murder her parents.

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn`t her mom`s blood all over your client`s bathrobe and in your client`s bedroom? And whoever this murderer was stayed around the crime scene long enough to stage it, to lay out knives, as if they were the murder weapon, to lie a crucifix on the floor beside another gun, which was not the murder weapon, somebody not afraid of getting caught in the house. Now, who could that be?

PANGBURN: Well, from the time the shootings occurred, there simply -- there were ear-witnesses who heard the shootings just almost immediately before Sarah ran out of the house.

I guess the thing that keeps coming back to me is that we had unidentified fingerprints on a number of locations, fingerprints that, in fact, matched the fingerprint found on the murder weapon, the scope that was taken off the murder weapon, the same fingerprint found among the murder bullets.

Those are real fingerprints. They came from a real person. That person has yet to be identified. That alone, I thought, was reasonable doubt.

You`re correct. There was blood on her robe, as there would be blood on my coat if a person wore my coat and killed somebody, even though it was not me who did it.

GRACE: You know what, Bob? I agreed that there were fingerprints in the home that didn`t match up to anybody. But if you go in anybody`s home, you`re going to find fingerprints. They could be from the milk man, for Pete`s sake, and you don`t know who the prints are.

But hold on, your theory is an unknown intruder sneaks into the home, puts on your client`s bathrobe, commits hari-kari and leaves.

OK, hold on. Marguerite Sowersby, long-time friend of the Johnsons, with us by phone, thoughts?

SOWERSBY: Yes.

GRACE: What do you think about the defense?

SOWERSBY: You know, I liked what the judge went through and showed the evidence. And you had to be around this girl to understand what she was saying was not the truth right from the get-go.

GRACE: Take a listen to this. This is what Diane Johnson`s parents had to say today outside the courthouse.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

D. DISHMAN: She was just a joy to be around. You know, and she was a -- whenever we did come to Sun Valley to visit them, why, she was such a great cook and gardener. She always had something new to put on the table for us. And she was the world`s best host, in my opinion.

P. DISHMAN: She`s with me everyday. And I don`t have to go to her grave. She`s with me everyday in my heart and all the memories I have of her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Bob Pangburn, I`ve got my own theory why you didn`t let your client really address the judge today other than that prepared statement, because, if she broke down, if she cracked in court and came even close to an admission of double murder, bye-bye, appeal! Straight down the drain.

PANGBURN: Well, a lot of Sarah`s statements have been taken out of context over, and over, and over again from the beginning of this case. I wasn`t going let that happen again. You`re right.

GRACE: Possibly wise. Many of us expected to see remorse by Sarah Johnson. Her trial lawyer, looking ahead to the appeal, did not let her make such a statement in court.

When we come back, the whole panel, plus veteran defense attorney Bruce Barkett (ph) is joining us.

And also, we`re about to take you down live to Aruba. CNN correspondent Karl Penhaul standing by with the latest on the search for Natalee Holloway.

But quickly to "Trial Tracking." Tonight, we need your help. Matel Zachary Sanchez, just 4-years-old -- look at this smile -- disappeared from his home, Milwaukee, Oregon, yesterday afternoon, Matel last seen wearing black jeans, a black and gray t-shirt, brown sandals. Please, also, looking for the owner of a small green late-model sedan seen in the area.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER: We`ve received some information has developed. And that there`s a vehicle that was seen in the area of the home at the time of the disappearance. And we`re looking for this vehicle. It`s described as a 2000 or newer small car, such as an Escort, green in color. We don`t have a license plate or any description beyond that. But this is a vehicle that we`re interested in.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Green 2000 Escort. If you have any information on Matel -- take a look, please -- call the Milwaukee Police Department, 503-786-7500.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Sarah Johnson in court today, 16-years-old when police say she gunned down her mom and dad because they disapproved of her boyfriend, a puppy-love murder.

These are the two innocents that lost their lives in their own home. There is the boyfriend, Bruno Santos. He`s in Mexico now, far, far away from the courthouse.

To Johnson`s defense lawyer joining us tonight, Bob Pangburn. What is your appeal?

PANGBURN: Well, there`s a number of issues. We`re going to have to actually sit down and kind of sort some of these things out. But several of them jumped to mind.

One is this sentence, a 16-year-old sentenced to life without parole. There was a motion to suppress statements made by Sarah to police officers immediately after she had an attorney hired for her. I`m sure that will be included in the appeal. We had a jury instruction issue, just several other issues.

We had one issue that, in fact, you had gone into here on your program before, the wearing of buttons in the courtroom. We had that happen in this case.

GRACE: Did the jury see it?

PANGBURN: Yes, they did.

GRACE: Someone I believe you`re referring to, her brother, Matt, now left an orphan, wore a button within his mom`s picture on it, mom and dad picture on it, right?

PANGBURN: Not only him, other people in the gallery wore the same picture with the mother and the father. And...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Don`t you have to make a showing -- don`t you have to make a showing the jury saw it, Bob?

PANGBURN: We did have a hearing on this motion. And my recollection is that the judge made a finding that, in fact, the jury at least could have seen them.

GRACE: Yes. Yes. Well, Bob Pangburn, we watched you in the courtroom. You`re a veteran trial lawyer. I`m certainly not underestimating you on appeal. I think the best thing you`ve got going for you is Sarah`s youth.

Everybody, with us tonight, Sarah Johnson`s lawyer, Bob Pangburn. And when we get back, we are switching gears and giving you the latest on a serial killer out of New York making money off his murders.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Twenty-year-old Stacy Moskowitz was the last victim killed in a Brooklyn lovers` lane. Berkowitz actually sent her mother, Neysa, a Mother`s Day card last week. She says she can`t forgive Berkowitz but doesn`t hate him.

NEYSA MOSKOWITZ, MOTHER OF LAST SON OF SAM VICTIM: I lived with hate for many, many years. It gave me ulcers.

DAVID BERKOWITZ, SERIAL KILLER: These hands (ph) are being used to touch lives.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Berkowitz claims he`s a born-again Christian who leads other inmates in prayer.

BERKOWITZ: At one time, I was called the Son of Sam. Today God has said, You are now the son of hope. That`s my new name.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He said he found God. Well, if he found God, then he -- he better come to me because I`m the pope. I don`t believe him. I don`t believe anything he says.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Not only did the Son of Sam, David Berkowitz, stalk and terrorize the city of New York, he took down six beautiful, young, innocent people, maiming seven others, as he terrorized the city. Tonight in Miami, Florida, the mother of his last victim, Neysa Moskowitz, the mother of the last Son of Sam victim. In Houston, Texas, director of the victims crime office for the mayor of Houston, Andy Kahan, is with us. In New York, Son of Sam`s lawyer, Mark Jay Heller.

But first let`s go to Albany, New York, and "Daily News" Albany bureau chief, Joe Mahoney. Joe, please tell me it`s not true that we are about to get published his memoirs, his journals, his diaries, a serial killer.

JOE MAHONEY, "DAILY NEWS" ALBANY BUREAU CHIEF: Right. There`s a fellow named Lawrence Jordan (ph), who is a publisher, who has latched up with David Berkowitz and says he`s going to put out a book that consists of his prison you know, journal, on-line entries that he`s putting out there for the last couple of years, and that this book will be on the book shelves come September.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BERKOWITZ: It is not easy sometimes, when the lights go out and the door slams shut every evening, to reconcile things and come to terms with everything, but at the time, there was a lot of things going on in my life, where I was out of control. I was not in my right mind. I was full of satanic ideas. Frankly, I don`t even remember much of the past anymore. It`s like a dark blur. It`s like a nightmare.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, I wish I could say the same for the crime victims whose lives he ruined. Let`s go to Neysa Moskowitz. Neysa is the mother of Stacy Moskowitz, David Berkowitz`s last murder victim. Welcome, Mrs. Moskowitz. Thank you for being with us. What do you have to say to Son of Sam`s memoirs hitting the bookshelves?

MOSKOWITZ: I think it`s a pack of BS. And I think it is disgusting, absolutely disgusting. If anybody wants to write a book, why don`t they do it about the victims, the aftermath? At least that`s life. That`s real life. But every year, another lawyer`s going to come and another book is going to be out, and it`s ridiculous. I think it`s utterly sickening. It`s disgusting.

GRACE: Do you remember when you learned your little girl had been killed?

MOSKOWITZ: Oh, do I remember? I`ll never forget it. I`ll never forget it.

GRACE: What happened?

MOSKOWITZ: She went out that night on a date. It was not her boyfriend. Actually, the guy she was with broke a date with another girl to take Stacy out. And she had had a fight with her boyfriend, so, like, they were two, like, lost souls. And whoever would have been in that particular spot would have gotten killed. It was my daughter`s unfortunate luck to have been there.

GRACE: To Andy Kahan. Andy, what say you about these diaries being published? And what about this name "Son of Hope"? Incredible!

ANDY KAHAN, DIR., VICTIMS CRIME OFFICE FOR HOUSTON MAYOR: You know, it never ceases to amaze me. You know, just a few weeks ago, we were talking about Wilbanks and her book deal, and now here comes the Son of Sam, you know, 28 years later, and we`re still talking about him, and he`s still achieving notoriety.

The problem, again, though, is the Son of Sam laws, which unfortunately were named after him, really are not applicable anymore. And what you`ve got right now is you`ve got a church and you`ve got a publishing company that are essentially acting as an agent for Berkowitz, who`s now using his notoriety, his ill-achieved that he achieved as one of the nation`s most highest serial killers.

You know, Ms. Moskowitz is exactly correct. Why do we continue to put individuals like Berkowitz on a pedestal? Why do we give them the limelight? Why are books, movies, shows named after them? And why not go after the real people, the real people who deserve to be given some sort of look-see? It`s real problematic, and I think it`s something that we really need to deal with as a nation, this huge, burgeoning issues of killers profiting off their notoriety.

GRACE: Mark Jay Heller is the Son of Sam`s defense attorney. Mark, your guy is all about the glorification of himself, continuing his so- called legacy as one of the best known serial killers in this country.

This is a shot of David Berkowitz as he`s being led from one jail to another. Let me go try one more time with Mark Jay Heller. Mark, can you hear me?

MARK JAY HELLER, SON OF SAM`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, I can. Can you hear me?

GRACE: Yes. Great.

HELLER: OK.

GRACE: Mark, it seems to me that yet another book, another article about Son of Sam is simply glorifying his status as one of the most famous serial killers of our time. Why don`t you advise him to stop?

HELLER: Nancy, with all due respect, I don`t think that the focus of this story is appropriate. I think that the focus of this story is the success of our justice system and our correction department. In fact, in the last 28 years that David Berkowitz has been incarcerated, he has gotten a college degree, he`s become a minister, and he has been putting out information that would turn around other young people in society that might be misguided. And by doing so, he`s hoping to avoid other unfortunate tragedies and other victims and victims` parents suffering as Ms. Moskowitz has suffered.

And the real story here is not about David Berkowitz`s glorification, but rather the glorification of, as he views it, his turnaround and his finding spiritual religion and hope. And that`s why he considers himself to be a person of hope. He`s hoping to give hope to the hundreds of thousands of inmates throughout...

GRACE: You mean...

HELLER: ... the United States and their victims.

GRACE: You mean the hundreds of thousands of inmates that are going to read his book, the hundreds of thousands of killers...

HELLER: This is not a book, Nancy. What this is is releases that he has made telling people in similar situations in prisons and people outside of prisons that they cannot go astray and act antisocially. He is not writing a book.

GRACE: OK. OK. Hold on. Neysa Moskowitz, response.

MOSKOWITZ: I think, first of all, the lawyer that took all those papers and everything else is out to make a fast buck, all right? Nobody is innocent here.

GRACE: And I...

MOSKOWITZ: The people that should respect the parents and the survivors of the children that were killed and maimed -- those kids will never be the same. But he`s still making money on it.

GRACE: Take a listen to this, Neysa.

MOSKOWITZ: And he doesn`t see any bad about it? What?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BERKOWITZ: It was a time of torment for me, a time of chaos, when these things happened. And my feelings of parole are that I`ve accepted responsibility for what has happened. I`m doing my time in prison. And I`m not trying to get out of prison.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: David Wohl, why does everybody find religion when they`re behind bars?

DAVID WOHL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It`s amazing, Nancy, when you have all this time on your hands, what you can come up with. Boy, what a lucky flock he must have as this -- as this religious leader behind bars.

Let me tell you something, Nancy. It`s amazing to me that the Supreme Court can apply the 1st Amendment to these violent murderers, yet when an inmate is in his cell and claims the 4th Amendment right against search and seizure, that gets them nowhere. They can rifle through his cell, rifle through his possessions and search and seize everything he has. But for some reason, the 1st Amendment does apply.

I only hope that Mrs. Moskowitz has a civil judgment and attachment and garnishment against any money that this multiple mass murder might make. Therefore that money would go from his pockets directly into hers.

GRACE: Bruce Burkett (ph)...

WOHL: I hope that`s the case.

GRACE: Bruce Burkett, agree or disagree?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The whole concept of this show is ridiculous. The man`s in prison for the rest of his life. Ask Martha Stewart what money -- what good money did her while she was in jail. He`s not profiting from this in any kind of real sense. The man has written his journals, which talk about his conversion from, as he describes it, satanism to Christianity. I`ve read some of them. They`re good writings about a conversion.

And whether you believe it or not, he has a right to make these journals and to publish them. They might help somebody. If you don`t like them, don`t read them.

GRACE: Bethany Marshall, to me, this is just another way for David Berkowitz to achieve self-glorification...

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Of course.

GRACE: ... at the cost, his victims, his dead victims, young girls, all similar in appearance, that lost their lives to a bullet to the head...

MARSHALL: Right.

GRACE: ... while he stalked this city.

MARSHALL: Nancy, it`s very important to understand that psychopaths relate to other people on two bases. Either they want to dominate and control other people -- in this case, this guy was interested in sexual sadism and killing -- or they want to get attention from other people. So the only true conversion experience I see going on here is he`s converted the wish to have power over people through killing them into the wish to get all kinds of attention through being a minister. And that`s it.

GRACE: You are seeing some of the headlines made by the Son of Sam David Berkowitz as he terrorized the city of New York.

When we come back, everybody, straight down to Aruba and the latest in the search for a missing American girl, Natalee Holloway. Stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BERKOWITZ: Son of Sam was a demon that worshipped Satan and was foolish. And David Berkowitz is a man who`s been redeemed and forgiven.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KARIN JANNSEN, ARUBA CHIEF PROSECUTOR: However, in this stage of the investigation, we cannot exclude the possibility that something -- something happened to Natalee. We are determined to find the truth, to find Natalee and, in case somebody harmed her, to find those who are responsible.

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GRACE: Today, a vigil on the beach there in Aruba that stretched down the sand from one hotel to the next, a human chain, as everyone prayed for Natalee. This is another vigil on the other side of the island.

Welcome back, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Let`s go straight down to Aruba. In Aruba, Natalee Holloway`s father, Dave Holloway, is with us. But first, let`s go down to CNN correspondent Karl Penhaul. Karl, what happened in the search today?

KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the Dutch marines came out this afternoon, Nancy, about 40 of them. That was after the Aruban prime minister signed off on this and allowed them to turn out and do this search. They had been in action early on in the search, but this was the first time in the last couple of weeks that they`d returned to search. They were in the area around the Mokker (ph) dam. That`s a flooded kind of refuse tip, if you like, not too far from the Van Der Sloot`s home. But the police commissioner, Joran Van Der Stratton (ph), has told me nothing was found in that area. It had already been searched, of course, anyway.

Another couple of developments to bring you up to date with, too. A few moments ago, in fact, shortly before nightfall here in Aruba, we saw Joran Van Der Sloot and one of the other suspects, Deepak Kalpoe, leaving the downtown police station in Oranjestad handcuffed together. They were being taken back to the prison at the east end of the island after another interrogation session. Police tell us, though, they weren`t being interrogated together. They were being interrogated in separate interview rooms.

And the third thing, of course, as you mentioned, the human chain. That was to mark the calendar month since Natalee has disappeared. That human chain stretched about two miles along the high-rise hotel district. And it really does go to show that both tourists, islanders and family are certainly not forgetting Natalee, Nancy.

GRACE: Karl, you told me that Joran Van Der Sloot, the judge`s son, was moved from one facility to the next. Were the Kalpoe brothers with him?

PENHAUL: Yes. The two of them were handcuffed together, in fact. They had been brought from the prison on the east end of the island to the downtown police station in Oranjestad. This was another interrogation session. That`s where most of the interrogation sessions take place...

GRACE: Wait a minute! Wait a minute, Karl. Karl! You`re telling me that Van Der Sloot and Kalpoe were handcuffed together?

PENHAUL: Handcuffed together as they were brought out of the police station.

GRACE: Gosh. David Wohl, they kept them in two different facilities, two different cells for a reason! Now they handcuff them together and let them take a ride in a car? Explain why this is a huge problem, David Wohl.

WOHL: Well, gee, Nancy, I don`t know.

GRACE: Oh!

WOHL: Maybe they can talk to each other and get their stories straight?

GRACE: Good Lord!

WOHL: And the best story wins. I mean, I`m -- this is befuddling. I mean, you top that with Judge Van Der Sloot`s advice to the boys, where he says, Hey, guys, no body, no murder case. Wow, is this thing blowing up. And I`m telling you, they better get a grip on it quick. I would let the FBI in and let them in real fast.

GRACE: Dave Holloway is with us, Natalee`s father. Dave, listen, you never put two suspects together to cook up a story together. Never! Are you happy with the way that this investigation is going? What would you like to see the authorities doing?

DAVE HOLLOWAY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S FATHER: Well, I would like to see all of them come together and tell us what is the real story. You know, we`ve heard already five or six different stories. And you know, until we find Natalee, that`ll be the big puzzle.

GRACE: I don`t understand -- I understand, Dave, why they don`t make the evidence that they know of public to the press. But what I don`t understand is why they`re not sharing it with you and Natalee`s mom.

HOLLOWAY: Well, that`s -- that`s hard to understand, as well. I know here, they tell us that they cannot share any information that may compromise the investigation. That`s hard for us to swallow. But you know, you have to follow the rules, and that`s what we`re trying to do.

As far as them being handcuffed together, I don`t know what the reasoning is behind that. Maybe they`ll fight it out and -- or then again, like the experts said, they may get their stories together. I don`t know.

GRACE: Well, you know, to Bruce Burkett -- I`ve only got a couple seconds left before break. But Bruce, these two being kept apart in different facilities for a reason, so they can`t continue to concoct a story.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure, but...

GRACE: You don`t put two people together in the back seat of a car for a drive if you don`t want them to talk!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don`t unless they don`t know they`re being monitored and you`re monitoring them. It`s entirely possible that they put them together for a reason, to see what interaction they have, lead them to believe that they would be able to have a private discussion that the authorities could then listen to. They`re in jail. They don`t have a right to privacy. They`d be able to listen to what they had to say, and maybe they`re hoping to learn something from that.

GRACE: Well, I`m glad to know that hope springs eternal with Bruce Burkett.

We`ll all be right back. But very quickly, to tonight`s "All Points Bulletin.` ` FBI and law enforcement across the country on the lookout for this man, Daniel Min Suh. Min Suh, wanted in connection with the murder of a Georgia man in 1999, possibly part of a gang initiation. Min Suh, 23, six feet, 130 pounds, scar on upper lip, disfigured nose. if you have any information on Daniel Min Suh, call the FBI, 404-679-9000.

Local news coming up for some of you, but we`ll all be right back. And remember, live coverage of the Sarah Johnson (ph) sentencing tomorrow, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, Court TV`s "Closing Arguments."

Please stay with us as we remember Chief Warrant Officer Steven Shephard, just 30 years old, an American hero.

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GRACE: As we head into the July 4th weekend, Natalee Holloway still missing, somewhere on the island of Aruba. Let`s go straight back down to Natalee`s father, Dave Holloway, with us. Mr. Holloway, how do you spend your days?

HELLER: Well, today, we met with the Texas Equusearch and gave them information based on some reconnaissance that we`d done of the island yesterday. And then we went to the prayer vigil and then spent some time riding around the island again. But most of our search efforts were done in the early two to three weeks that we were here. Some of the areas now that we`re searching I`m not capable of doing, such as diving and searching from boats. So that will kind of give you an idea of what we`re doing now.

GRACE: Mr. Holloway, you must be bone-tired by the time you come home every day.

HELLER: Yesterday was a trying day. We spent most of the day on four wheelers. And it was hard to get up this morning. Sure was. But you know, every day we -- it`s a new day, and you know, God gives us strength to continue on. And I`m not ready to throw in the towel yet. A long ways from it.

GRACE: And to Karl Penhaul. Karl, where does the search take us tomorrow?

PENHAUL: Again, from what we understand, the Texas Equusearch guys will be out again, and they are doing both ground searches -- one of the cadaver dogs is still left on the island. The three others that they had here have returned, along with some of the members of the team. They had go back to work because this is a volunteer force. That said, more volunteers should be arriving.

Plus, they also have now some of the Dutch marines to help them out, as well. But we do understand that some of the focus will certainly be on diving some of the waters along the northern edge of the island. But for that, they are waiting on offers of help. They need a 60-foot boat to get them out into parts of the island or -- where the sea swell is heaviest, Nancy.

GRACE: OK, Karl Penhaul, standing by there with Natalee`s father, Dave Holloway. Gentlemen, thank you.

I want to thank all of my guests tonight. But as always, my biggest thank you is to you for being with us, inviting all of us into your home. Coming up, headlines from all around the world, Larry on CNN. I`m Nancy Grace, signing off for tonight. See you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 o`clock sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.

END