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DIPLOMATIC LICENSE

Zimbabwe: A Dilemma for the United Nations

Aired July 1, 2005 - 21:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The economic collapse in Zimbabwe is the result of bad policies and bad governance.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Africa has had a lot of tears shed for her. Some might even say crocodile tears.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need cooperation to move our cases. We need to receive information, information on the crimes committed, information on the possibly responsible people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RICHARD ROTH, CNN ANCHOR: It's called Operation Restore Order, but some say it should be called government out of order.

Welcome to DIPLOMATIC LICENSE. I'm Richard Roth.

What is going on in Zimbabwe is another textbook case or dilemma for the United Nations. One member country's own internal affairs or a human rights violation that demands world outrage and action?

What's going on? Well, the Zimbabwean government is evicting more than 300,000 people from their makeshift shacks and cottages, leaving them homeless and at risk. The government says the demolition operation was needed to lower the crime rate, not punish political opponents.

The United Nations had been able to send in its Housing Habitat Director Anna Tibaijuka to Zimbabwe. She's there and has met with President Robert Mugabe.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT MUGABE, ZIMBABWEAN PRESIDENT: We talked about the cleanup operation. We talked briefly about it, all in terms of the background, the preparations. We had that -- we had wanted to do this before the election.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: African leaders have not raised much of a fuss about what is going on in Zimbabwe and in New York the rules of Security Council say if one country objects an issue can be blocked from formally getting on the agenda. Thus, countries like the United States and Britain used an already scheduled decision on food emergencies in Africa to blast the Zimbabwean government from the homeless in Harare.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EMYR JONES PARRY, BRITISH AMB. TO UN: After 300,000 people have been made homeless and thousands of children forced to abandon school, its important, Mr. President, to realize that this particular crisis has been caused by the action of the Zimbabwean government. It is a man-made, not a natural phenomenon. The economic collapse in Zimbabwe is the result of bad policies and bad governance.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: Well, we have some guests to talk about this issue. In London, Gugulethu Moyo, of the International Bar Association. She is the media relations advisor for Southern African issues. Ms. Moyo was formerly the in-house counsel for the Zimbabwe-based newspaper the "Daily News," a paper shut down by the government in 2004. And also joining us, on the phone from Harare, Zimbabwe, Pikirayi Deketeke. He is the editor of the "Herald" newspaper, a large, wholly government-owned publication.

All right, let me ask our newspaper gentleman on the phone in Zimbabwe, you don't think the United Nations really should be involved in this. Why is that?

PIKIRAYI DEKETEKE, "HERALD": I'm not saying that the United Nations shouldn't be involved in this. I think Zimbabwe made it clear to the United Nation (INAUDIBLE) of 1996, when it was a (INAUDIBLE) that it persisted in housing problems, and there was no assistance. And the slums have continued to grow and the government has decided, you know, that it should tackle the problem head-on and this is exactly what it is doing at the moment.

ROTH: I mean, you're saying what the government line is, years ago it said we need help with this housing situation and Zimbabwe is claiming no assistance came and now the whole world, as the assistant Tanzanian ambassador at the beginning of our show said, is crying crocodile tears, correct?

DEKETEKE: Exactly.

ROTH: All right, let's ask our guest in London. You obviously don't agree and you had to leave and flee Zimbabwe last year. What do you think about what is happening on the ground there? Is it Operation Restore Order?

GUGULETHU MOYO, INTL. BAR ASSN.: No, complete disorder. You know, the situation in Zimbabwe right now presented perhaps the gravest evidence that the international community needs to intervene, to stop gross violations of human rights taking place. It's quite clear that this is not an operation to deal with the housing situation. There are simply gross violations of human rights taking place in Zimbabwe and I cannot understand how Mr. Deketeke can describe this as an operation -- policies that are designed actually to improve the housing situation on the ground.

DEKETEKE: How does it make sense for a government to wake up one day and say we are just going to be vindictive on our people, we're just going to demolish their houses for no reason at all. You know, it doesn't happen like that.

Most of the people here who have been affected in some of these illegal settlements were veterans, people who had fought in the struggle for Zimbabwe's independence, and they understand exactly what the government is trying to achieve. This is why there hasn't been any internal uprising in the country.

(CROSSTALK)

MOYO: In fact, the U.N. envoy, who is in Zimbabwe, has met with these people and has said that all of them are saying that they are not happy -- or at least all of the people that she has met, are not happy at all with what has happened to them.

And, clearly, people would not be happy. Children have died. You have a situation where people have been removed from basic community structures, like clinics, schools. So the education of children has been interrupted. People who are already vulnerable, who perhaps are suffering from AIDS -- and you know the situation in Zimbabwe is very serious. A quarter of the population is either HIV positive or affected by AIDS. And, you know, these people now have no recourse to treatment. They've been put in the open with little --

(CROSSTALK)

ROTH: All right. Let the Harare journalist speak, please.

DEKETEKE: You know, you can't simply say -- you can't simply brand a whole segment of the population as suffering from AIDS. You can't get away with that statement.

You know, it is people who were living in shacks and have been moved and all of the sudden they are HIV patients. They are AIDS patients. You cannot label people like that.

MOYO: I have not said that. I have said that there are people amongst those who have been removed who are vulnerable.

ROTH: Mr. Deketeke, we have satellite imagery that we showed on CNN, a very dramatic before and after look following a government sweep in one area. What does the Zimbabwean government of Mr. Mugabe, do you know, intend to do with all of the people who have been forced out?

DEKETEKE: The government has designated three farms so far in Harare alone where --

(CROSSTALK)

MOYO: You know, it's quite clear from Mr. Deketeke's hesitation that --

DEKETEKE: -- people will be relocated. And the U.N. envoy will be there, is actually going to one of the settlements. She has spoken to people to who are affected. She has actually physically seen the --

(CROSSTALK)

MOYO: The government of Mugabe should have had a plan before hand.

You know, under the international covenant to which the Zimbabwean government is signatory, the government should have made plans beforehand, before forcibly removing these people, and what is happening now is just a rush job to try and hide what is going on there because of the widespread international condemnation that is there, because you have a U.N. envoy on the ground looking at the situation. And these are the usual cover-ups of the Zimbabwe government.

DEKETEKE: The resettlement of these people did not start with the coming in of the U.N. envoy. The (INAUDIBLE), the illegal stalls that were setup were removed and people were settled in new stalls that had been put up that are legal, that can be monitored, that can turn informal businesses into more formal structures.

(CROSSTALK)

MOYO: You're talking of these structures, saying that they're illegal. The courts have not yet determines the claims of the people who were removed.

ROTH: But Zimbabwe doesn't get a quick, you know -- it doesn't make it easy on itself when there's been years of problems for forced moves of landowners, white or black, in other properties. So Zimbabwe is definitely demonized in the world community, but it has yet to show and come before the Security Council and make its case. I mean, does Zimbabwe enjoy the position it is in? And you, in your comments from before, said you think journalists have preconceived notions, and that's why they're biased.

DEKETEKE: Every issue that occurs in Zimbabwe, irrespective of if it is happening elsewhere, is an issue for the Security Council. This is what we've come to learn.

ROTH: Well, it's not getting on the Security Council's agenda because there are countries that think it's the same internal affairs argument and that's why I assume, at the behest of Zimbabwe, they're making sure it doesn't get on the counsel agenda. You're saying that government would have no problem if it was widely discussed, possibly leading to sanctions and tougher action?

DEKETEKE: No, no, I don't think --

(CROSSTALK)

DEKETEKE: Zimbabwe is, as you know, operating a touchy economy and whatever it is doing, it is doing on its own because the so-called international community is definitely there to condemn whatever move it takes, irrespective of the goodwill that is there. I mean, that is why Zimbabwe is --

(CROSSTALK)

MOYO: The international community is condemning violations of human rights law. The Mugabe government has clear obligations under the international human rights system, and I must say that, you know, the reason why in fact decisive action has not been taken on Zimbabwe within the United Nations is because there are weaknesses that are acknowledged within the United Nations system.

And now what I think should happen is that the secretary-general of the United Nations should use his good offices to actually insure that effective action is taken in this case. What I think should happen is --

(CROSSTALK)

DEKETEKE: This is why the whole world is opposed actually to several actions that have been initialed by lobbyists to say take action on Zimbabwe. Based on what? Based on falsehoods and contrived human rights abuses which do not exist. I mean, the rest of the third world --

(CROSSTALK)

MOYO: There is nothing contrived here.

DEKETEKE: -- because I am hearing very clear that the issues are political and nothing else.

ROTH: You know, privately Secretary-General Annan has talked to the Security Council after speaking with President Mugabe and has laid out some of the depressing statistics and figures. He's trying to urge more action inside the Security Council. But he's got to get past other countries, China and Russia, who feel that internal affairs is still a cloak of protection based on the charter.

Anybody -- final comments. Ms. Moyo, go ahead.

MOYO: No, I don't think internal affairs is a cover. I think it's clear that the secretary-general must exercise preventative diplomacy in this case to urge the Security Council to turn its attention to Zimbabwe. The secretary-general can actually obtain assurances from the Zimbabwe government to stop human rights violations from taking place, to require the Zimbabwean government to compensate the victims of abuse, and provide restitution.

Further I think also to weigh upon the Zimbabwe government to enter into dialogue with the opposition so that there is a long-term solution to this problem, which includes the restoration of the rule of law, democratic reforms --

ROTH: We're going to see what happens there.

Mr. Deketeke, is Mr. Mugabe coming to New York and going to be in September with all of the world leaders and people are going to turn a blind eye again to this internal situation? Very briefly.

DEKETEKE: It depends on Mr. Zoller's (ph) attempt at the United Nations and Zoller (ph) has eloquently represented Zimbabwe's position on whatever is happening in the country and.

(CROSSTALK)

ROTH: OK, we'll.

DEKETEKE: . and will clearly say we'll try to accommodate the opposition in dialogue irrespective of what the issues at hand are. And the issues of rule of law, which is a directive of the government, and say no to slums and no to illegal (INAUDIBLE) activities. Let's formalize everything. But the United Nations is now complaining (INAUDIBLE) is trying to fight against it. If they don't do that, it's an abuse of human rights, but the government continues to soldier on and the president will be at the United Nations representing the country.

(CROSSTALK)

ROTH: We're going to have to -- we will follow Zimbabwe as it moves -- we're going to have to follow this issue. I don't think it's going away as it moves closer to any international diplomatic action.

I'd like to thank Gugulethu Moyo, of the International Bar Association, who had to leave Zimbabwe last year, speaking to us from London. And in Zimbabwe, by telephone, Pikirayi Deketeke, editor of the "Herald" newspaper there. Thank you both.

Some 4 million Zimbabwean urgently need food. Half the country is in a food shortage emergency. The U.N.'s world Food Program Director James Morris told the Security Council this week the government doesn't issue clear appeals for help. More than a million metric tons of cereal grains, though, are going to be rushed in.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES MORRIS, U.N. WORLD FOOD PROGRAM: Only time will tell. This is a very tough issue and, you know, they clearly had a bad weather situation, but you all know the dynamics there as well or better than I do. And, you know, there are a few places in the world that I worried a lot about last year -- North Korea, Sudan, -- and this would be in that category. So we will simply keep.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CONDOLEEZZA RICE, U.S. SECY. OF STATE: Kofi, hi, how are you. It's good to see you. Thank you.

KOFI ANNAN, U.N. SECY.-GEN.: They seem to like kisses.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: Who doesn't like kisses? Kofi Annan remarked on what the cameras liked when Condoleezza Rice came calling for the first time as U.S. secretary of state.

Annan will take U.S. dollar over U.S. kisses, aware that one house of the U.S. Congress voted recently to withhold 50 percent of the U.S. budget to the United Nations. But you should know that while Ms. Rice received a U.N. kiss, she then gave a giant kiss off to dozens of waiting reporters and cameras when she left the United Nations. Her predecessor, Colin Powell, always made it a point of talking to the press, usually along side the secretary-general. She might have been worried about taking a question about her nominee as ambassador.

The U.N. secretary-general has given the Security Council a deadline, and that's the group that usually issues them. Annan told the Council in a hastily-called private meeting that the special commission established to probe Oil For Food wants more notes kept by the U.N. Political Affairs Office, notes that were kept during Security Council closed door meetings when Oil For Food was talked about.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEPHANE DUJARRIC, U.N. SPOKESMAN: While these are unofficial notes taken by U.N. secretariat staff during the Council's informal closed consultations, they do cover the work of the Security Council and what is expressed by Council members. So the secretary-general appreciates the Council members' advice on this issue and he'll wait to hear from them by Tuesday noon.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: Annan's team denies it's an attempt to throw the spotlight back on the Security Council for Oil For Food administration lapses. The independent inquiry, led by Paul Volcker, wants more money from the United Nations. Three reports may be coming in the next few months with a large focus on the role of the Security Council and also the business world in the complicated Oil For Food affair.

Volcker is not a prosecutor. He can just build a case of facts. Other arms of the law are looking at Oil For Food. Luis Moreno Ocampo is a prosecutor, in fact a global prosecutor, based in the Hague, the first ever prosecutor for the fledgling International Criminal Court.

In a week of debuts, he too made his first Security Council formal appearance. Main topic: the high-profile case of Darfur, Sudan.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LUIS MORENO OCAMPON, INTL. CRIMINAL COURT: These crimes include the killing of thousands of civilians, the widespread destruction and looting of villages leading to the displacement of approximately 1.9 million civilians.

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ROTH: Diplomats say they can't trust Sudan to prosecute on its own Darfur crimes with their own courts. It's too early to see if there will be a clash with the prosecutor wants to try suspects outside of Sudan in the Hague.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MUSTAFA ISMAIL USMAN, SUDANESE AMB.: We don't want to go for confrontation with (INAUDIBLE) in the Hague. We are trying to do our best in order to do what we are doing now. You know, we've established a special court for Darfur. We've established a panel for prosecutor general especially for Darfur. We are cooperating with the African Union to send African Dutch to come and supervise what is going on.

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ROTH: Still on the topic of war crimes, an update. About eight months ago we told you the story of the former United Nations employee who was a suspect in the 1994 genocide in Rwanda.

Callixte Mbarushimana left Rwanda in the aftermath of the war and managed to get several more jobs with the United Nations until he was dismissed in 2001 when it was revealed that he was the subject of an investigation by the United Nations own criminal tribunal for Rwanda.

Despite eye witness testimony and the insistence by investigators that there was plenty of evidence, he was never indicted. This week, the United Nations announced that it had asked the French government to take up to case of Mbarushimana and the French government says its prosecutors will first take a look.

DIPLOMATIC LICENSE spoke to Callixte Mbarushimana in France, where he has refugee status. He maintains his innocence.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CALLIXTE MBARUSHIMANA, FMR. U.N. EMPLOYEE: I am not afraid of justice. What I am afraid of is injustice, like what is taking place in Rwanda for instance, where people are not really tried properly.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: Last year, Mbarushimana won compensation from an independent U.N. administration tribunal for what he had called wrongful dismissal, but the management of the United Nations says they're not ready to pay yet.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DUJARRIC: Before we deal with paying him, we want to make sure that, given the severity of the allegations at hand, that all possible avenues have been exhausted.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: Rwanda's U.N. ambassador says any country harboring Mbarushimana has a responsibility to hand him over to Rwanda for trial, but he also says that if the French are truly going forward with this case, his government has plenty of evidence to provide.

Some U.N. officials say this was an embarrassment that the United Nations wanted to clear from its books, but it will be up to the French or Rwandan courts now. This week the registrar for the U.N.'s tribunal for Rwanda said the indictment list for the tribunal is final, closed and Callixte Mbarushimana's name is not on it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The last indictment on the genocide has been submitted a couple of days ago for confirmation by chambers. Like I just said, and I repeat, the last indictment on genocide. So that is to say that the case of Callixte, for us, is over and the file has been even referred to the Rwandan judicial authorities.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FRED ECKHARD, U.N. SPOKESMAN: Thanks for everything. I'm not going to be far away and I expect we can easily stay in touch in the electronic age with the click of a mouse. Thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: He will speak for the United Nations no more. He retired this week after 8-1/2 years at the side of Secretary-General Kofi Annan after a stint with Annan at the Department of Peacekeeping. Things got more heated in the pressroom there because of Oil For Food more recently.

In a couple of weeks we'll have a farewell interview here on the program with Fred. In remarks he meant to say to the press, Fred Eckhard said in his 20 years with the United Nations he experienced what he called the dramatic transformation of the United Nations from a very good talk shop to a major operational entity, and it started 60 years ago last weekend when 50 countries signed the United Nations charter, creating the place and forcing this show to be born. That wasn't in the charter.

The United Nations held this week a low-key commemoration of the San Francisco birth by the bay. The United Nations actually has a collection of some 500,000 photos. New history will be made September 14 when the biggest summit ever of world leaders descends on New York for the 60th anniversary of the United Nations.

I am not allowed to take my vacation that week, so consider yourself lucky.

I'm Richard Roth, in New York, thanks for watching.

END

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