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Nancy Grace
Nancy Grace for July 1, 2005, CNNHN
Aired July 01, 2005 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, an intense manhunt fanning out through the heavily wooded areas surrounding Oregon suburbs tonight after every mom`s worst nightmare comes true. A 4-year-old little boy, we think, in his home, with his mother, suddenly gone. Four-year-old Matal Zachary Sanchez, missing. And tonight, we want your help.
And we go live to Aruba and the search for 18-year-old beauty Natalee Holloway. It`s day 33. Is the Aruban government bungling up or covering up in the case of a missing American girl?
And 11-year-old Carlie Brucia, the little girl out of Florida that was led to her death by a repeat offender. Tonight, will legal maneuvers stop Florida prosecutors from seeking the death penalty?
Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. And I want to thank you for being with us tonight.
We go live to Aruba and the search for 18-year-old Natalee Holloway.
And Lady Justice takes another hit. The man facing trial for the kidnap and murder of an innocent 11-year-old Florida girl, Carlie Brucia, may maneuver his way out of the death penalty.
But we need your help. First, tonight, still no sign of 4-year-old Oregon boy Matal Zachary Sanchez. The search more desperate as each hour passes. Matal went missing from his own home Wednesday afternoon, his mom in the room right beside him.
Tonight, in Portland, Oregon, officer Kevin Krebs; in Atlanta, attorney Randy Keen; in West Palm Beach, Florida, defense attorney Michelle Suskauer; in New York, Dr. Lisa Kaplan Ashemill (ph), psychologist; and on the phone from Portland, KEX News Radio reporter Michael Desmond.
First, to Michael Desmond, bring me up-to-date, friend.
MICHAEL DESMOND, KEX NEWS RADIO: Well, what happened this afternoon was, the parents, the mother and stepfather of Matal Sanchez, spoke to media very briefly. It was a very emotional, very tearful news conference, lasted only a couple minutes.
They basically pleaded for more information. There`s now $6,000 worth of reward money on the table for any information regarding Matal Sanchez. They`re looking for a couple of vehicles in the case, a 2000 or newer green compact car that was seen in the area of the disappearance Wednesday afternoon around 3:00.
They`re also asking folks to call in with any information on a two- door gray 1992 Nissan Sentra that has some damage along the right side of the vehicle. And they`re looking for information on those two.
Today, investigators are going through the home, taking samples, looking at evidence, trying to piece things together. Searchers are going to be looking throughout the area where the boy disappeared, throughout the weekend. They`ve got a number of agencies involved. And they`re continuing to search.
So far, they say no suspects, no persons of interest in the case. But they`re leaving all avenues open.
GRACE: Now, explain to me the circumstances surrounding this little boy`s disappearance.
DESMOND: Well, it happened Wednesday afternoon. The way we`ve been told by police, what happened was that the mother and the grandmother were at the home about 3 o`clock. The grandmother said she was going somewhere. She took off.
Then the mother noticed that Matal was missing. The grandmother returns home. She did not have the boy with him, and that`s where we are today. They haven`t seen him since.
GRACE: Where did the grandmother go?
DESMOND: I don`t think police are saying that at this point. But you can ask Officer Krebs if he`s willing to release this information now. But that`s why they`re asking folks to talk about this specific vehicle in the case.
GRACE: Well, that`s a good idea.
Let`s go to Officer Kevin Krebs with the Milwaukie Police Department. Officer, where was the grandmother running these errands?
OFFICER KEVIN KREBS, INVESTIGATING MISSING 4-YEAR-OLD: Well, I don`t have a lot of information, specifically, where she went. We`ve talked to her. And we`re trying to piece all that together to figure out exactly where she did go.
GRACE: Piece it together? She was only gone three hours.
KREBS: Yes.
GRACE: I mean, where did she go, Wal-Mart, the grocery store, the bakery, the laundry, what?
KREBS: Well, it was my understanding she went to run some errands. And we`ve been communicating with her and talking with her at length about where she went. And investigators are tracing her steps and are looking into the areas that she went.
GRACE: Let`s go straight out to KOIN-TV reporter, Margy Lynch. Thank you for being with us. What is the latest on the case?
MARGY LYNCH, KOIN-TV REPORTER: Well, the latest, you`ve heard some things. But this is the very latest information, is that two tow trucks just brought back the cars that were removed from this home earlier. They belonged to the family, and they were parked in the driveway. This is the home right behind me from where the little boy disappeared.
And those cars have just now come back. Now, the car that hasn`t come back is the car that belongs to that grandmother, to Chris Kaufmann (ph). And that car was towed away yesterday.
Police have told us this is all part of a normal investigation. We`ve seen some things that aren`t so normal for a missing child case. The Oregon state crime lab was up here collecting evidence today. That`s the latest.
GRACE: Again, back to KOIN-TV reporter Margy Lynch. Margy, you`re telling me that some other cars were taken, searched by police, processed and returned. What cars were those?
LYNCH: They were two cars just behind me. And I don`t know if you can see them. One was a Ford Mustang. Another was a Contour. They were both dark-colored cars, and they were parked in this driveway today until the tow trucks came and got them this afternoon, took them for just a little while, and then just returned them about two minutes ago. Again, that grandmother`s car, though, is not back at the residence yet.
GRACE: Margy, those two cars that you`re referring to, do they also belong to the family?
LYNCH: They do register back to the family. That`s right.
GRACE: Very quickly, to Atlanta trial lawyer Randy Keen. Well, Randy, we can obviously rule those two cars out, because if anything had been found in there, a fingerprint, blood, anything, they would have kept the car, right?
RANDY KEEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely, Nancy.
GRACE: Question: In this case -- it seems surreal -- the mom in one room, Randy, the little boy in the other room. The mom says, "I thought he was with the grandmother." The grandmother says, "I thought he was with the daughter." Explain.
KEEN: That`s a good question, Nancy. You`ve got a small home. You`ve got a mom. You`ve got a grandma. What more safe environment could a child be in? Yet everyone`s wondering where the child is. It`s very disheartening.
GRACE: Everybody, I want to give you the tip line number. It is 503- 786-7492. As you can see, all means necessary being used tonight to find this little boy, 4-year-old Matal.
Back to Margy Lynch with KOIN-TV. Margy, how is the mom doing tonight? And have the parents made any public pleas for their son?
LYNCH: Nancy, the mom is not doing well. She did make her first public appearance and talked publicly for the first time since this all started. Just this afternoon, she sat with her husband, who is Matal`s stepdad, Daniel Acevedo.
The two sat there together, both in tears. She was very emotional. She asked people to call that tip line with any information they had.
GRACE: Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LAURA ACEVEDO, MATAL SANCHEZ`S MOTHER: I want to ask anyone who has information about Matal to please call or e-mail the tip line. We are desperate to find Matal and bring him home safely.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Again that tip line, 503-786-7492. Take a look at this little boy, missing tonight out of Oregon.
Back to Margy Lynch. Margy, what is the terrain around the suburb where the boy lived?
LYNCH: It is an urban area, but there is also a mix. There are a lot of homes in this neighborhood, and then butting up right against the homes, there are some wooded areas. And that`s where searchers have spent a lot of their time, in some of these wooded areas around here.
GRACE: Back to Randy Keen, who should police be speaking to tonight?
KEEN: Well, obviously, the mother, the grandmother, and the father. I understand the father came into town to investigate and to determine the whereabouts of his child.
GRACE: Quickly, to Officer Kevin Krebs -- he`s joining us from the Milwaukee Police Department -- I understand there is not an Amber Alert tonight. Why?
KREBS: Well, the reason there`s no Amber Alert is because, at least in this state, there`s a certain criteria that we have to meet. And this particular case didn`t meet all the points, all the criteria for an Amber Alert. So therefore, we were not able to issue one.
GRACE: For an Amber Alert, don`t you need a car, possibly a tag number? Here, we don`t have any of that.
Sir, has the -- officer, have the neighbors been spoken to? Have you canvassed the neighborhood?
KREBS: Yes, we`ve canvassed the neighborhood extensively. We`ve gone back, actually, more than -- in some of the homes, more than once. All the neighbors, all the people in the neighborhood have been extremely cooperative. Everybody has just bent over backwards to help us out and do everything they possibly can to help us.
I mean, the response has been great. Everybody is just so concerned about Matal. They all want to see him come home. And everybody is doing everything they can to help us out.
GRACE: Everybody, we`re talking you straight back to Oregon when we come back. But also, in just a few moments, we are heading down to Aruba and the latest in the case of missing 18-year-old Natalee Holloway.
Standing by, CNN correspondent with us, Chris Lawrence. Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DANIEL ACEVEDO, MATAL SANCHEZ`S STEPFATHER: We`re doing everything we can to help investigators, but we still need people to call with any information, no matter how small it may seem. We would like to thank all those in the community, all the investigators, the detectives, all the searchers. They`re doing an incredible job.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KREBS: Right now, we`re asking anybody that may have seen the Nissan that`s been of interest lately. It`s a `92 Nissan Sentra with the Oregon license SNN-281. Specifically, we`re looking for -- if anybody saw this Nissan Sentra on Wednesday.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are about to take you live down to Aruba and the latest in the case of Natalee Holloway. But before we go down to our CNN correspondent standing by, let`s go straight back to Oregon.
Everybody, a 4-year-old little boy missing tonight. A mom`s worst nightmare. He was in the room right next to her in the home. Suddenly, boom, he`s gone.
Very quickly, back out to Margy Lynch with KOIN-TV, reporter. What information can you give us about this little boy, Matal?
LYNCH: Well, I`ll tell you what his parents told us tonight. It was a stepdad and his mom, Daniel and Laura Acevedo. They say that he`s a little boy who`ve very active. They say that he likes to jump around and walk around, and climb in trees, and go out into the wilderness.
They say that he is also very polite. And they say -- friends tell us, family friends say, that he likes to talk to anyone, that he`d go up to complete strangers and say "Hi" and make friends.
GRACE: To Officer Kevin Krebs, has Matal ever left the home before? Does he have a history of wandering around the neighborhood?
KREBS: Not to my knowledge. I know that they`ve only been residents in the neighborhood a short time. We`ve had no contact with them prior to this event. And as far as I know, this has never happened before.
GRACE: Officer, who was living in the home?
KREBS: The mother, the boy, the grandmother, and the mother`s husband.
GRACE: OK. Is this the maternal or paternal grandmother?
KREBS: This would be the grandmother of the husband.
GRACE: OK, so hold on. Let me get this straight. The stepdad`s mother?
KREBS: Yes.
GRACE: OK. Where is the biological dad?
KREBS: Well, we`re trying to find the biological dad. He`s not been a part of Matal`s life, really, at all.
GRACE: OK.
KREBS: And he`s been hard to locate. And investigators are working very hard to find him so we can talk with him.
GRACE: Has DFACS ever been called to the home, Department of Family and Children Services?
KREBS: No, not to my knowledge. They have not.
GRACE: OK, you`ve got the mom, you`ve got the stepfather, and you`ve got the stepfather`s mother living in the home. Where was the stepfather at the time the boy disappeared?
KREBS: Well, he was outside of the home. I`m not sure exactly where he was at, but I know he was not in the home at the time.
GRACE: Well, wasn`t there a three-hour period when nobody even knew Matal was missing? The mom thinks he`s with the grandmother. The grandmother says she thinks he`s at home. So for three hours, where was the stepfather?
KREBS: Well, I know he had to work earlier in the day. And I don`t know what his work schedule was. I know that it was around 3 o`clock that mom discovered that Matal was missing. And after about a search of about 20 minutes to a half an hour, she realized, "He`s not here. I need to call 911."
GRACE: And, Officer, is there a reward tonight?
KREBS: There is. There is a reward. We actually have two rewards, but combined up to $6,000.
GRACE: $6,000 for any information on this little boy. Take a look. Just 4-years-old, disappeared from his own home. What a nightmare. Phone number 503-786-7492.
And quickly, Officer, is the grandmother cooperating? Has she given a statement?
KREBS: Yes, the grandmother and all of the family members have been very cooperative. And they`re all talking to us. And they`re doing everything they can to help bring Matal home.
GRACE: To defense attorney Michelle Suskauer. Michelle, remember just recently, we had the little boy and girl wander out of the home and fall into a manmade pond and die? And everyone was suspicious of the parents, because the mom was at home. The father was a trucker; he wasn`t there.
But the reality is, they had left the home before to wander the neighborhood, and they died. Could that be a possibility here?
MICHELLE SUSKAUER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I guess it could, but I think that those children were older, and this little boy is four, who was very friendly, and it`s very hard to teach...
GRACE: They were not. Michelle, Ellie is telling me they were not. One was about four, one was a little -- even younger.
SUSKAUER: Well, you know, it`s hard to teach a 4-year-old or a 3- year-old about stranger danger too. But it just sounds very strange.
Again, you know, it`s hard -- it`s unfortunate that we have to suspect family members. But at this day and age, we do. And hopefully, they`re going to really search through that car, they`re going to piece through it. They`re going to comb through it.
But I think it`s -- you know, he certainly could have wandered off, but I don`t think anybody can be ruled out here, unfortunately.
GRACE: Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
D. ACEVEDO: And I would like to thank everybody who supports us, from family, friends, coworkers and neighbors. It means so much to my wife, myself, and our extended family.
Matal is an active, bright, wonderful kid. He`s very polite. He`s only 4-years-old. We need him to come home with us. We need to know that he`s safe. If you guys know anything, please call, e-mail the tip line. Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: 503-786-7492.
Here in the studio with me, Dr. Lisa Kaplan Ashemill (ph), psychologist. You remember in the Elizabeth Smart case, everyone started looking at the family when no one could find Elizabeth? It wasn`t the family.
LISA KAPLAN ASHEMILL (ph): Not at all. And this was also someone who was taken from the home, right from under her parents` eyes. In terms of the wandering, again, he hasn`t done it before, so I`d be curious as to why now.
GRACE: And you know what? In the other case, Michelle, those children, as Lisa`s pointing out, had wandered out of the home before.
Officer, you`re telling me, no history of that with little Matal, correct?
KREBS: Yes, not to my knowledge, there is no history with that.
GRACE: OK, everybody, quick break.
But as we go to break, to "Trial Tracking." Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O`Connor announces her resignation today. The 75-year-old justice is the first woman ever to serve on the highest court in the land. Having dealt with some of the nation`s major legal battles, O`Connor took her seat as associate justice on September 25, 1981. The president praises her as one of the most admired Americans of our time.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. TED KENNEDY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: Today, President Bush is faced with a decision that affects each and every American and has the potential to impact every facet of constitutional law and the freedoms this country was founded upon.
I urge President Bush to consult with the United States Senate on his nominee to the nation`s highest court and to nominate someone whose record is consistent with the ideals and freedoms of the United States.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Justice O`Connor will step down when her successor is confirmed.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
D. ACEVEDO: I would like to thank everybody who supports us, from family, friends, coworkers, and neighbors. It means so much to my wife, myself, and our extended family.
Matal is an active, bright, wonderful kid. He`s very polite. He`s only 4-years-old. We need him to come home with us. We need to know that he`s safe. If you guys know anything, please call, e-mail the tip line. Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Tonight, a missing 4-year-old boy out of the state of Oregon.
We`re about to take you down to Aruba. CNN correspondent Chris Lawrence is standing by there in Aruba.
But first, very quickly, back to Oregon. I want to go to Officer Kevin Krebs. Officer, what are you doing tonight? And what type of search has gone down so far?
KREBS: Well, we`ve searched extensively the neighborhood surrounding the home where Matal lives. We also have searched the wooded areas that surround that home quite extensively. I mean, we started with a search perimeter of one mile. We went out to two miles.
We received tips that have led us to other areas. We`re searching those extensively. And the search continues, and it will continue throughout the weekend. We have a team of investigators working on every lead that we get and see if we can get some information that can bring Matal home.
GRACE: How many tips have you gotten so far, Officer?
KREBS: At least 250, and the number grows each time, each time I look at the numbers, it just keeps growing. So people are calling in. They`re really doing things to help us.
GRACE: Officer, have all of the family members, everybody that`s been in that home, agreed to take polygraphs, lie detectors?
KREBS: We haven`t really got into polygraphs with them. And none of that has occurred. So that is an area that we really haven`t gotten into yet.
GRACE: Again, to Michelle Suskauer, defense attorney. Michelle, it could be something as simple as the boy wandering off, getting picked up by a stranger. It could be as simple as him wandering into a wooded area. It`s very mixed there, urban and wooded.
But don`t you agree that a proper tactic would be to immediately polygraph everybody and rule them out?
KREBS: Or, if not polygraph, a stress test, or really speak to them, and try to interview them using some significant tactics. Obviously, you know, you have -- when you have a stepfather, you have a step-grandmother, you have an estranged father. You have some people of interest, and you have to pursue everything.
Unfortunately, that case in New Jersey where the little boys -- we thought that there was some harm that came to them and they were just in the trunk. I mean, you have to look at everything.
GRACE: You`re right. Randy Keen, agree or disagree with polygraphing the family at this juncture?
KEEN: Well, that`s a tough question. You`ve got a very small, little child. There`s all these woods. There`s places up underneath the house people need to look. There are obvious...
GRACE: So is that a yes or a no? Would you poly or not, at this juncture, or would you just continue the search?
KEEN: At this juncture, I would continue to search and speak with people.
GRACE: Yes, I think you`re right. The mother does not appear to be in any shape to undergo a polygraph.
Randy, by the way, do you believe that polygraphs are accurate?
KEEN: There are so many variables in a polygraph, Nancy, as you know. It depends on who is administering it, under what circumstances, where the test is done. There`s a myriad of too many things, too many factors out there to say it`s accurate or it`s not.
GRACE: So Officer Krebs, before we go to break, I just want to ask you very quickly what the plans are for tonight. What is being done tonight to find this boy?
KREBS: Well, we`re going to continue the search. I mean, that`s what we need to do, is we`re going to continue the search. The areas that we`ve -- around the home and the areas that we`ve gotten information on tips, we`re going to continue to do that. And we`re going to continue to talk to family members.
GRACE: Do you need volunteers?
KREBS: Actually, what we need people to do is -- and we`ve said this all along -- check your yards, check your cars, check your homes, check everything, and see if maybe you can come up with -- find a clue, or maybe you can find Matal.
GRACE: OK. Officer, thank you for being with us. Thank you very much.
KREBS: Thank you.
GRACE: Everybody, one last shot of Matal, just 4-years-old. He could be anywhere tonight.
We are headed down to Aruba. Standing by, CNN correspondent Chris Lawrence with the latest in the search for Natalee Holloway.
As you know, we at NANCY GRACE want very much to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Take a look at April Geyer, 27-years-old. April missing from the St. Cloud area, August 1998. If you have info, call Carole Sund Carrington toll-free, 888-813-8389. Please, help us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was pretty. She was -- she loved to dance, sing. She liked to be around a lot of people. She likes hanging out with her friends, and she doesn`t really like being alone or anything.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was a loving and caring person. She never gave handshakes, she always gave hugs. And I`ll always remember her because of her smile. She smiled beautifully, and she was a beautiful girl.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: No one will ever forget the chilling video from a local car wash in Florida of 11-year-old Carlie Brucia being led by the hand, literally, across a parking lot to her death. Later, Joseph Smith was arrested. Here`s that video I was referring to.
Carlie Brucia -- she was on her way home from a sleepover with another little girl in her neighborhood. Joseph Smith approaches her. They walk off together. And that is the last Carlie Brucia was ever seen alive.
Tonight, Joseph Smith defense is trying to out-trick Lady Justice and maneuver his way out of the state, even seeking, even asking a jury for the death penalty. Tonight in Tampa, Florida, "North Post Sun" reporter Renee Lepere. Thank you for being with us, Renee. Bring me up to date.
RENEE LEPERE, REPORTER, "NORTH PORT SUN": Thank you. Good evening. The defense has filed a motion asking for two things. They are asking that they -- the prosecution not be allowed to ask the potential jurors what their feelings are about the death penalty. And if they are not granted that motion, they are asking that another jury be empaneled for the penalty part and not be asked those questions.
GRACE: So what they want is a bifurcated trial. Michelle Suskauer, they -- the defense in this case, Joseph Smith, is trying to overrule U.S. v. Witherspoon, in which every death penalty in this case is governed. You`ve got to ask the jury their feelings about the death penalty in a death penalty case, Michelle!
MICHELLE SUSKAUER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You do. And what`s -- and he`s filing standard motions that are filed in these types of cases. And what he`s doing is he`s trying to file everything he can to save his client`s life. And he`s not going to have a judge agree to that. He`s entitled to one jury. They have to be death-qualified. And they`re the ones who will sit through the penalty phase and the guilt phase.
GRACE: And very quickly, Randy Keen, when she says death-qualified, that is not as ominous as it sounds. It simply is asking each juror, Under the right circumstances, could you give the death penalty or are you morally opposed to it, right?
RANDY KEEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That is correct.
GRACE: Now, Randy Keen is not only a defense attorney, he`s also a former judge. Randy, take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
EILEEN SCHORPEN, GRANDMOTHER OF CARLIE BRUCIA: How about my granddaughter? Did she get a fair trial when he killed her? What about her? What about me? What about my daughter? It is not fair!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He didn`t just take her life, he destroyed my entire family!
SCHORPEN: He destroyed everything!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My brothers can`t function. My sister-in-law can`t function.
SCHORPEN: None of us can function!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Randy, this girl was at a sleepover on the weekend. I think it was a Sunday evening. And she was walking home in the late afternoon to her home, a short ways away, in her own neighborhood, Randy. You have children. You`ve got a girl. And I want to talk to you a moment, Randy, before I ask my question, about this guy`s record. Dusty (ph), look at this.
His record, Randy, will knock you off your chair. Look how many pages this thing is. I finally had to go through and take notes to decipher it. In `93, aggravated battery. He beat a woman in the head with a motorcycle helmet and broke her nose. In `97, Randy, acquittal at trial, acquittal for kidnap and false imprisonment. He attacked a woman outside. He got on her, he grabbed her from a pool hall, threatened to cut her with a knife and started leading her out the door with a knife. Two eyewitnesses. One of them was a cop, Randy, a cop! In `99, heroin charges, 2001 heroin, 2003 -- Randy, eight days after his release -- eight days after his release -- he tests positive for drugs.
OK, Randy, the government, the state had so many opportunities to stop this guy. Now Carlie Brucia is dead, and his lawyer wants to stop the state from even seeking the death penalty. Will it happen?
KEEN: I don`t -- I think he`s got very much of an uphill battle. He`s got a video. He`s got a DNA problem. He`s got a previous violent history. He has a lot of problems.
GRACE: Well, and you know, here in the studio with me, Lisa, in this case, there`s not only the video, but in his car, everybody, there was an intense struggle in the back seat with this little girl, an 11-year-old girl. DNA was found in his `92 Buick Century. He told a witness he murdered and kidnapped the little girl. Evidence taken from his home, from his car, and from the crime scene. How do you type him?
LISA KAPLAN ASHENMIL, PSYCHOLOGIST: I would give him something called an antisocial personality disorder. This is somebody who is incredibly manipulative, comes across as very charming and is able to talk his way out of everything, has no regard for anyone, does not seem to at all be impacted by what he does, and instead, talks his way out of everything.
GRACE: Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHERIFF BILL BALKWILL, SARASOTA COUNTY POLICE: The body of a beautiful, lovely little girl, Carlie Brucia, has been found. Joseph Smith is under arrest for the abduction and murder of Carlie.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Joining us from Florida, the reporter from "The North Port Sun," Renee Lepere. Renee, remember, Florida did have "Old Sparky" -- lovingly referred to, euphemistically referred to, the electric chair.
LEPERE: Yes.
GRACE: Long story short, after -- I know of two people catching on fire, physically catching on fire...
LEPERE: Right.
GRACE: ... during electrocution. Now Florida has death by lethal injection, the needle. Now, are they actually asking for two juries to be empaneled, one for guilt/innocence, one for penalty phase?
LEPERE: Yes. What the defense is arguing is because of the death- qualifying process, it`s not going to give Joseph Smith a fair trial because their argument is there are people that are capable of rendering a verdict of guilty but would not do so because of their personal beliefs about the death penalty. So he`s asking that there be possibly a second jury to handle the penalty phase of it, leaving -- you know, and not be able to ask the question as to whether or not they believe in the death penalty. At the hearing, he is planning to bring a University of Florida - - of South Florida professor into it that has done some research about death-qualifying...
GRACE: Some research?
LEPERE: Yes.
GRACE: Renee -- Renee, no offense, but you know, some professor giving research to a court -- forget it! The court cares about precedent...
LEPERE: Right.
GRACE: ... what the court above it has said, what the U.S. Supreme Court has said, what other Florida courts have said. A professor can read until he`s blue in the face. That is not going to affect what this trial judge does, I don`t believe, anyway. Do you agree, Michelle?
SUSKAUER: You know, he is not entitled under Florida statute to have these two juries. But what he`s doing is he`s throwing out some issues for appeal because this is a tough case.
GRACE: OK. Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOEY BRUCIA, CARLIE`S FATHER: I only saw her twice a year, two weeks at a clip. But now she can see me always. She`s in a better place. She got there in a horrific manner, but now she`s watching me all the time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And very quickly, Renee, we`re running out of time, but in Florida, as in every jurisdiction that has the death penalty, there`s got to be aggravating circumstances. Every murder does not qualify for the death penalty. What are the aggravating circumstances in this case?
LEPERE: To be perfectly honest with you, in this particular case, I`m not sure. I tried to look over the statute, and of course, it`s written in lawyer-ese instead of plain English.
GRACE: I hate when lawyers talk like lawyers, Renee.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: You`re dead on. I`m going to ask Randy Keen -- Randy, you know what Florida has that a lot of jurisdictions don`t have? If you murder someone under a certain age, I believe it`s 12 there, or over a certain age, a senior citizen, you qualify. Very often, Randy, you qualify if the murder occurs during the commission of another felony, such as kidnap, rape or robbery. Do you believe those would be two qualifiers?
KEEN: Absolutely. In this particular case, I think he`s got that problem, and he`s also got the willful and the wanton and the reckless behavior that is required in a death penalty charge.
GRACE: Yes. You know, Randy, very often, we call it heinous nature of the -- or the victim tortured or tormented before their death. There are so many aggravating factors here.
Very quickly, Renee, yes, no, is there a gag order in this case?
LEPERE: There is a gag order preventing people close to the investigation from speaking. There were some concerns. Unfortunately, there were some rather unsavory Internet sites that were trying to get ahold of the crime scene photos.
GRACE: Oh!
LEPERE: Yes, it`s amazing...
GRACE: You know, Renee...
LEPERE: ... what people will...
GRACE: ... right when you think you`ve seen it all...
LEPERE: And somebody else comes along and...
GRACE: ... you wake up and smell the coffee.
LEPERE: ... blows your mind.
GRACE: Renee Lepere, reporter with "The North Port Sun," thank you.
Everybody, we are headed down to Aruba and the latest on the search for Natalee Holloway. Standing by, Chris Lawrence, as well as Natalee`s stepfather. We`ll all be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARCIA TWITTY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S AUNT: You know, you see a lot out there. You know, your head might travel there for a second, but your heart won`t let you. So you just bring it back to what the focus is, what we so desperately want, and that`s for Beth and Natalee and the whole family, everybody, all the Holloways, everybody to get home safe. You know, we`re not losing hope.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: It is day 33 in the disappearance of an 18-year-old Alabama girl in the tiny island of Aruba, Natalee Holloway. Her family is all there, all vowing not to leave without their girl. Tonight, in Aruba, Natalee`s stepfather, Jug Twitty, is with us. Defense attorney in Aruba, Arlene Ellis-Schipper.
But first, let`s go down to CNN correspondent Chris Lawrence. Chris, a little confusion today, apparently. There was some type of an announcement that the three suspects had been formally charged. What was that all about?
CHRIS LAWRENCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Nancy, it`s all just a matter of semantics. It`s playing on words. Nothing has changed today that wasn`t the case yesterday or the day before or any day in the past three weeks when it comes to these three suspects. When they were arrested, they were arrested under suspicion of three crimes: murder one, murder two,and kidnapping. That has always remained the same. But in Dutch law, as it`s practiced here in Aruba, they really don`t have a such thing as charges, formal charges. And that`s where the problem came in. But it`s just a matter of semantics, saying that they are arrested under suspicion of...
GRACE: OK.
LAWRENCE: ... is sort of the equivalent of what we know as charges.
GRACE: To Aruban defense attorney Arlene Ellis-Schipper. Arlene, welcome. Are plea bargains possible in Aruba, like they are here in the U.S.?
ARLENE ELLIS-SCHIPPER, ARUBAN DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No. Absolutely not. It`s not a system that is used here.
GRACE: Well, Arlene, let me ask you this. So you couldn`t get a plea deal out of the Kalpoe brothers in exchange for, for instance, hypothetically, testimony against Joran Van Der Sloot, the judge`s son?
ELLIS-SCHIPPER: No. Absolutely not. It is not allowed. It`s actually forbidden.
GRACE: So one co-defendant cannot testify against the other.
ELLIS-SCHIPPER: No, no. You can testify against one another, but it`s not done -- it`s not rewarded. A plea bargain implies that you`re rewarded.
GRACE: I see. So the Kalpoe brothers, charges would actually have to be dropped in exchange for...
ELLIS-SCHIPPER: No, no, no. No, not at all. You asked me whether a plea bargain is possible. I say no. It`s actually forbidden. What I tried to explain is that they just have to testify, if they want to, against, for instance, the co-suspect, Joran Van Der Sloot. And it is never -- it is prohibited to reward such testimony.
GRACE: So let me get this straight. The Kalpoe brothers could testify with absolutely no incentive whatsoever.
ELLIS-SCHIPPER: The only incentive that is given is that it shows cooperation, and cooperation is one of the aspects that the judge weighs into when he sets his punishment.
GRACE: Oh, OK. It`s all...
ELLIS-SCHIPPER: But again, in such serious cases it`s very minor.
GRACE: OK. It`s all very clear to me now.
Michelle Suskauer, that`s not that different from in the U.S. because you get a co-defendant to testify against the other, of course, they`re going to get a lesser sentence.
SUSKAUER: They`re going -- or charges can get dropped. They can flip on their co-defendant in exchange for that cooperation, and they can get rewarded, or not, or not in sentence.
GRACE: I`m going to go to Natalee`s stepfather. George "Jug" Twitty is with us tonight in Aruba. What happened in the search today, Jug?
GEORGE "JUG" TWITTY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S STEPFATHER: To be honest with you, Nancy, I know they searched a couple of places, I`m not exactly sure if they found anything. I spend most of the time talking to attorneys and doing things on the other side. I`m not exactly sure.
GRACE: Jug, what do you think about them handcuffing together Joran Van Der Sloot with one of the Kalpoe brothers for a nice ride in a car? Think they talked about the case?
TWITTY: That was unbelievable. Beth and I saw that. You know, we don`t watch that much TV. We haven`t turned it on. I mean, why do they -- why do they handcuff them together like that? I don`t -- I -- you know, that -- I don`t know why they did that.
GRACE: Well, you know, after we brought it up on the show -- I saw it happen. I nearly did a back flip. Never, never, never put defendants alone together unless you want them to cook up a story, for Pete`s sake. And then they said that -- the Aruban government said, Oh, well, we were actually eavesdropping on them, surveilling them to see if they`d say anything.
Jug, are you happy with the investigation so far? The Aruban government is saying they do not bungle cases.
TWITTY: No, I`m not happy with it. You know, I`m absolutely not happy with it.
GRACE: Well, I`ll be blunt with you. I`m not happy with it, either.
TWITTY: Well I know you`re not. And thank God you`re not, Nancy, because I know that you`re on our side. And thank you for, you know, everything you`ve done for me and for Beth. And it`s just -- it`s mind- boggling. And I know that the reason everybody asks why is everybody so interested in this case -- well, I mean, the United States, the world, everybody has the same clues we have, and they`re just, like, What in the world is going on? And it`s -- I don`t know. It`s really, really tough.
GRACE: Mr. Twitty, please stay with us. Everybody, we`ll all be right back.
But quickly, to tonight`s "All Points Bulletin." FBI and law enforcement across the country on the lookout for this man, Daniel Scaife, wanted in connection with the `94 shooting of a man in Atlanta, a murder. Scaife, 32, 6-1, 150 pounds, black hair, brown eyes. If you have info on Daniel Scaife, call the FBI, 404-679-9000.
Local news coming up for some of you, but we`ll all be right back. And remember, live court coverage at Court TV on Monday, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern on Court TV.
Please stay with us as we remember 2nd Lieutenant Matthew S. Coutu, 23, an American hero.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Chris and Arlene in Aruba, thank you. And especially to Jug Twitty, Natalee`s stepfather, thank you, sir. We`re praying for you.
TWITTY: Thank you.
GRACE: What a week in America`s courtrooms. Take a look at the stories, and more important, the people who touched all of our lives.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): BTK serial killer Dennis Rader admits he`s guilty on 10 counts of murder one, and in horrific detail. He stayed cool and calm, describing methodical yet deranged acts of murder and torture.
DENNIS RADER, CONFESSED SERIAL KILLER: I went over and strangled Mrs. Otero. I thought she was down. Then I strangled Josephine. And she was down. Then I went over to junior and put the bag on his head.
GRACE: The aunt of 8 and 9-year-old Shasta and Dylan Groene, both missing from their Idaho home after their mom and brother`s murder, begs you to continue the search over the July 4 holiday.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re trying to get the pictures out there and not to let people forget that these kids are still out there. We want them home.
GRACE: Stunning developments in the case of 9-year-old Jessie Lunsford. Convicted sex offender John Evander Couey admits to molesting and burying the little girl alive, reverberations that a jury may never hear Couey`s 30-plus-page confession to murder.
MARK LUNSFORD, JESSICA`S FATHER: Why did he tie her up and put her in a hole? I think we ought to just execute him and be done with it.
GRACE: Lady Justice is spinning like a top tonight! The Son of Sam, the serial killer who stalked the city of New York in a year-long murder spree, is publishing a book. His victims` families are speaking out.
NEYSA MOSKOWITZ, MOTHER OF LAST SON OF SAM VICTIM: I think it`s disgusting. Absolutely disgusting. If anybody wants to write a book, why don`t they do it about the victims?
GRACE: Sarah Johnson sentenced to life without parole for the ambush and double murders of her mother and father. The motive? They disapproved of her dating an illegal alien with a drug problem.
SARAH JOHNSON, CONVICTED OF MURDERING HER PARENTS: I`m deeply grieving the loss of my parents, as well as the loss of my family, my home, my friends and my community.
GRACE: Sounds like she`s not sorry she did it, but she sure doesn`t want to go to hell for it.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
I want to thank all of my guests tonight. But my biggest thank you to you for being with us, inviting us into your home. Coming up, headlines from all around the world, Larry on CNN. I`m Nancy Grace, signing off for tonight. See you right here on Monday night, 8:00 o`clock sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend. And happy 4th.
END
