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Nancy Grace
Nancy Grace for July 5, 2005, CNNHN
Aired July 05, 2005 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LISA PINTO, HOST: Tonight, breaking news. Joseph Edward Duncan III`s been charged with two counts of kidnapping. Duncan was arrested Saturday after being found in a Denny`s restaurant with 8-year-old Shasta Groene who went missing seven weeks ago.
And Shasta described to police how Duncan took her and her brother from their home and repeatedly raped them. Shasta`s 9-year-old brother, Dylan, tonight remains missing and he`s feared dead. We`re going to go live to Idaho for the latest, tonight on NANCY GRACE.
Good evening, everybody. I`m Lisa Pinto, sitting in for Nancy Grace tonight, who`s taking a well-deserved break. And I want to thank you for being with us.
We`ll go live to Aruba. It`s day 37 since 18-year-old Natalee Holloway completely disappeared. And they`re down to just one suspect behind bars in this investigation, Joran Van Der Sloot -- remember him -- the judge`s son. And the two Kalpoe brothers, who were held for nearly a month in the case, were freed yesterday, much to the distress of Natalee`s family. And the search for lovely Natalee rages on.
But breaking news tonight. Joseph Edward Duncan III is charged with two counts of kidnapping. Eight-year-old Shasta Groene is recovering tonight from a seven-week ordeal after being discovered at a Denny`s restaurant. She described to police how she was taken from her home and repeatedly raped by this man, Duncan. Shasta`s brother, 9-year-old Dylan, remains missing. He`s feared dead.
Remember on May 16th, their older brother, their mother and her boyfriend, were found bound and bludgeoned to death in their home, and the kids have been missing ever since.
Tonight, in Coeur d`Alene, Idaho, Captain Ben Wolfinger of the Kootenai County Sheriff`s Office is with us. On the phone from Gillette, Wyoming, the great aunt of Dylan and Shasta, Ms. Sue Torres; in L.A., defense attorney Debra Opri; in New York, defense attorney Alex Sanchez; in Pittsburgh, forensic pathologist Dr. Cyril Wecht; and in New York, psychotherapist Lauren Howard.
But first, let`s go straight out to CNN correspondent Rusty Dornin to give us the breaking news in Coeur d`Alene. Good evening, Rusty.
RUSTY DORNIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lisa, disturbing details about the ordeal that little 8-year-old Shasta Groene has been through over the last seven weeks. These papers are part of the criminal complaint that was just released that are required to be released under Idaho law.
And they describe an interview that she had with investigators over the past few days where she places Joseph Duncan at her home on May 15th. She said she was woken by her mother, taken to the living room. Everyone there was bound. And then she and her brother were bound and taken and put in a pickup truck.
They were taken in a pickup truck and then transferred to that red Jeep that we`ve been seeing that Joseph Duncan was driving. Then she describes going to two different sites in Montana. And according to the report, she told investigators that she and her brother were raped repeatedly.
Now, she does not describe anything about what could have happened at that house, or that she saw the murders, or that she saw what happened to her brother. But very disturbing details. And these were the basis for them to be able to file the kidnapping charges against Joseph Duncan.
PINTO: Rusty, I have that report in front of me. It`s a handwritten statement taken by a police officer from Shasta, I believe. And as a former child sex crime prosecutor, what I notice about it is that it`s really consistent with the way a child speaks.
The investigator asked her a series of questions, and she basically can spell out that the man that was at her house was the man who tied up her mother, was the man who put her in the truck, and then was the man who raped her and raped her little brother. I mean, that is very convincing to me at this point, what`s alleged.
DORNIN: Obviously, it was convincing enough for the charges to be filed against him for first-degree kidnapping today, of course, with intention to rape and for lewd and lascivious acts. Those are the reasons that he was granted no bail whatsoever.
PINTO: And the judge -- so the judge remanded him, I understand, on this count, no bail. But at the same time, he also set another set of bail on the the -- he was a fleeing fugitive from Minnesota. How much he did set on that case?
DORNIN: He set that for $2 million. And that`s, of course, the case where he was accused of molesting a 7-year-old boy last year. He wasn`t arrested until March. The judge then apparently had told a reporter that he didn`t know that Duncan was a level-three sex offender. He granted him bail.
PINTO: Get out of here, Rusty. Get out of here!
DORNIN: He granted him bail.
PINTO: Fifteen grand?
DORNIN: And Duncan made bail in April and that is when he disappeared.
PINTO: Fifteen grand bail for a man who, in 1980, was convicted of raping a 14-year-old boy at gunpoint, is that right? I`ve never heard of such a...
DORNIN: That`s right. It was a brutal -- it was not just a gunpoint. I mean, he did put that gun to that kid`s head and pulled the trigger twice on an empty chamber to make the kid believe that he was going to kill him. So it was a very brutal crime.
PINTO: I mean, that`s sadistic. An element of sadism, an element -- and this is when the suspect was 16-yearsold, and he`s convicted for that first rape.
But let me ask you this: Why did nobody know where Duncan was for all this time? You tell me he has a conviction out of one state. He was wanted on charges in another state. What was he doing in the Coeur d`Alene, Idaho, area?
DORNIN: That we don`t know. He stole a car -- he apparently rented that red Jeep, and then it was reported stolen. So after that, we don`t see him in Coeur d`Alene -- you know, we don`t -- Shasta Groene was the person to see him in Coeur d`Alene May 15th.
PINTO: OK, no one else from the neighborhood describes having seen him at this point? There are no other...
DORNIN: We don`t know. They said they have received a lot of tips. Police say they`ve received a lot of tips about this whole thing and about placing -- that they did see Joseph Duncan in this red Jeep.
And just one quick thing, too, just to say that apparently that little girl has received such an outpouring from the community that the police have asked people not to send any more gifts because the hospital is overflowing.
PINTO: Wow. I mean, this may be a dumb question, but how is a child who`s lost her brothers, lost her mother, been raped, how is she doing at this point?
DORNIN: For the first time, officials did say that it has been difficult for her. But they do, on other hand, say that she`s very happy to be back with her father. They`ve shown pictures of her smiling. They claim that she`s resting comfortably and is doing well.
PINTO: Oh, boy. Such a sad story. Has the defendant in this case, has he spoken? Has he made any statements at this point?
DORNIN: He just responded to the questions. The judge read him his rights. He said, "I understand them as they are intended." He then asked if he could ask a question, but wasn`t sure if he could ask it. He wanted to have an attorney assigned before he asked it.
The judge wasn`t going assign an attorney. So the judge did assign a public defender. And then the public defender came up, and he whispered for about 20 seconds in that attorney`s ear. And the attorney did say that`s not something that should be dealt with now.
PINTO: Rusty, I`m hearing in my ear that we have a copy of the 911 tape that first brought the police to find Shasta. Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
OPERATOR: Dispatch Breanna...
CALLER: Yes, hi, Breanna. This is Linda, the manager at Denny`s.
OPERATOR: Yes.
CALLER: I`ve got a little girl here with a tall gentleman, and she looks so much like that Shasta.
OPERATOR: OK, are they still in the building?
CALLER: Yes, they`re at table 20.
OPERATOR: And can you describe the male to me?
CALLER: He is probably -- how tall is he? (INAUDIBLE) probably six - - I`d say 6`3", really slim.
(CROSSTALK)
OPERATOR: OK.
CALLER: Dark hair, curly, with a hat on.
OPERATOR: Yes, I`m sorry, table 20?
CALLER: Yes, it`s all the way in the back of the restaurant.
OPERATOR: All right.
CALLER: And we`re not sure, you know? She looks so much like her. I just -- I don`t know.
OPERATOR: All right. We`ll have someone go that way.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINTO: Thank god for Good Samaritans, right, Rusty? I mean, in it seems like the whole community was determined to find Shasta and Dylan. What word on Dylan at that point?
DORNIN: No word yet. They have not identified the remains that were found in western Montana. They did have a news conference this afternoon. But that`s forthcoming. Apparently, they are still being processed at the lab in Quantico, Virginia, in the FBI lab.
PINTO: And how would you describe the mood of the community now? You`re right there in Coeur d`Alene. It`s a mixture of happiness, the tragedy?
DORNIN: You`re describing it. This is a very small town. We just had a very small-town Fourth of July by the lake. Things like this don`t happen in Coeur d`Alene, is what I`ve heard from people. And it`s obviously great joy at seeing that Shasta Groene was returned safely. But just horror at, you know, how this whole thing has turned out.
PINTO: Rusty, thank you for this outstanding report for what`s going on with this tragic tale. Stay with us.
Now, we at NANCY GRACE, we want desperately -- we want -- we`re going to take a quick break. And we`ll be back with this story after the break. More out of Coeur d`Alene, Idaho. We`ll talk to the local police and a panel of experts here in New York.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVEN GROENE, FATHER OF SHASTA AND DYLAN: Thank you all very much. My whole family appreciates your help and the community`s help. She`s doing very good. Thank you.
QUESTION: Is she going to be getting out of the hospital soon?
GROENE: I`m not sure of that yet. (INAUDIBLE) She is. And I`m going back in there to be with her now.
QUESTION: How is the family doing?
GROENE: They`re doing a lot better now. Thank you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAPTAIN BEN WOLFINGER, KOOTENAI COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: Based on the information, the investigators were able to put together yesterday, in totality led them to believe that Dylan is dead. And that`s why we`re working so diligently right now to try to verify that or find it`s not true, because, quite frankly, I would be more than happy to stand up here and tell you that was the biggest mistake that we`ve ever made. But unfortunately, we don`t think it`s going to be there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINTO: Good evening. I`m Lisa Pinto, in for Nancy Grace.
Continuing coverage on this tragic story out of Couer d`Alene, Idaho. That was Captain Ben Wolfinger from the Kootenai County Sheriff`s Office who has been like a dog with a bone on this case. Early Amber Alert, he`s been looking for these children. We have him here with us tonight. Let`s go straight out to Captain Wolfinger.
Hello, how are you, Captain?
WOLFINGER: I`m good, Lisa. How are you?
PINTO: Good. I have to commend you. You have been persistent in this case. You let the community know you were looking for these children, and you were rewarded partially.
WOLFINGER: Well, you`re right, Lisa. You know, it wasn`t just community. But thanks to the media, both local and national, we`ve let the entire nation know that we`re looking for these kids. And eventually, that`s exactly what made the difference, is somebody -- a citizen out there recognizing them, thanks to all of you.
PINTO: Well, Captain, where are we now? Can we expect any good news about Dylan? Please tell me yes.
WOLFINGER: Well, I`m sorry, Lisa, I`m afraid we can`t. We just don`t believe that Dylan is alive. The remains found earlier this week, now shipped to Quantico, we think will verify that, unfortunately. But that`s where we`re at, at this point.
PINTO: And what other forensic workup have you done? I understand you`ve searched the car of the suspect, Mr. Duncan, is that right, and his apartment, too?
WOLFINGER: Well, the car was searched here. The stolen vehicle that he had been driving, a search warrant was issued on that early Saturday morning. And that was searched, processed. And that stuff all went to the lab, as well.
Now we understand that the Fargo Police Department, and the FBI in the Fargo office executed a search warrant of his residence. I don`t have the information on what came back from the Fargo search yet.
PINTO: Well, tell me what -- this tragic story of Shasta Groene`s interview, and she describes that this man, Edward Duncan, raped her and her brother. Did you have a -- sort of one of your sex crimes investigators talk to her? Who conducted that interview?
WOLFINGER: Detective Mettles (ph), who is one of our sex crimes investigators, a man who`s well-trained and does a great job with young victims. He`s the one that did the actual interview itself.
PINTO: And he sounds like he got a lot out of young Shasta, a young girl who`s traumatized, very difficult witnesses to interview. I`ve done it myself. And the account comes across as just heart-breaking and credible. Where do we go from here in this investigation?
WOLFINGER: Well, certainly, there will be more interviews with Shasta. That has to happen. We understand that.
But as you said, she`s very fragile and it just has to take time. And Detective Mettles (ph), the investigator who interviewed her first, will be the only one who does those interviews. Because as you know, you have to keep that consistency, and you have to keep that rapport.
PINTO: You need the child`s trust.
WOLFINGER: Obviously, our focus now...
PINTO: You need the child`s trust and continuity.
WOLFINGER: Oh, absolutely.
PINTO: And I know -- I understand you told the father, "Please, don`t ask her about the events, because you don`t want to muddy the waters here." Is that right?
WOLFINGER: Absolutely. And I mean, I think, as you -- as a former prosecutor, you understand exactly why we do that. We keep that trust. We keep that consistency.
Now we`ll move towards the investigation of the homicide itself. Our goal all along here, our primary goal, has always been find the children. Secondarily deal with the homicide investigation. Our focus now is shifting towards that homicide investigation and coming to the final resolution on that.
PINTO: Captain Wolfinger, I also have with us Dr. Wecht in Pittsburgh who you know is a renowned expert in matters of forensic pathology.
Doctor, what`s your analysis of what could be Dylan`s remains at this point? What are you expecting that they will find out there in Montana?
DR. CYRIL WECHT, DUQUESNE UNIVERSITY: Well, based upon what Captain Wolfinger has said, it would appear -- and they have other information -- that the remains are those of Dylan. Certainly, by now, they have determined that the remains are those of a child.
They may have dental records. And if there are teeth available, they`ll compare those. And the most scientific and definitive identification, of course, will be through DNA. They will look to see then whether there`s any evidence of trauma.
If it was suffocation or strangulation, they`ll find nothing. After seven weeks, assuming that the boy was killed at the time of the abduction or around then, back on May 16th, I do not believe that there will be any soft tissues remaining, at least soft tissues that can be examined.
PINTO: Doctor, is part of the reason that this body -- we don`t know whose body it is at this point. We don`t if it`s Dylan`s, we don`t if it`s another child. This body has been out in the elements, it`s been subject to animals, to insects, to the heat. I mean, that certainly corrupts the crime scene, doesn`t it?
WECHT: Yes, there`s no question. The postmortem decomposition will be such that even the cartilaginous structures in the neck, the hyoid bone, and the thyroid and cricoite cartilaginous (ph) which are rather delicate tissues in a youngster, they will have decomposed.
So if he was bludgeoned, as his mother, and older brother, and the mother`s boyfriend were, then fractures of the skull will still, of course, be ascertainable.
PINTO: Dr. Wecht, quickly, I only have a minute left. Let me ask you about the other forensic examines that are taking place, that namely the apartment of the suspect and the car. What would you want to find in that car? I know I`d be looking for semen, blood, hair...
WECHT: Trace evidence, right. Anything that looks like it might be a stain or a splotch of any kind. And they will study to see if it is blood, if it is semen, if it is saliva, other body fluids. They`ll look for fibers, hairs, and threads, and anything at all that can be forensically identified first as to his genre and, secondly, as to his specificity, namely does anything match up to the boy or the girl?
PINTO: Doctor -- sure, sure.
WECHT: One more, if I may -- one more comment on the little girl, too. Of course, what the captain said about the detective is important. But remember this, too: A gynecologist and a sexual assault nurse examiner must be also be...
PINTO: We`re talking about a rape kit. We`re talking about doing a rape kit on a little girl. It has to be done.
WECHT: And a very careful examination, yes.
PINTO: Has to be done, right, to corroborate her story?
WECHT: Yes, absolutely.
PINTO: Terrible, another ordeal for a young woman to go through. We need your expertise after the break, doctor. More questions on this case and the missing girl in Aruba. Stay with us, please.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK LUNSFORD, FATHER OF JESSICA LUNSFORD: I was very happy for her father. I hoped things work out for them. I`ve listened to the news this morning about her brother. And I`m sorry, dude. I`m really sorry.
And I wish lawmakers would do more and tighten things up. Our laws ain`t strict enough, federal laws. I think more states and the federal government should take a good look at Florida`s new laws for sex offenders.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WOLFINGER: God only knows what she`s been through in the last six or seven weeks. And we`re, you know, taking it very slow. But we`re taking that information, combining it with the physical information, the other sources, and starting to get with some locations where they may have been staying.
We haven`t been able to find any link to the family. And I know Steve Groene has said publicly that they don`t know who Duncan is. And he couldn`t find any link in his family, as well.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINTO: That`s Captain Ben Wolfinger from the Coeur d`Alene County Sheriff`s Office who`s just doggedly been pursuing this case. I have with me on the phone, the young victim, Shasta and Dylan Groene`s great aunt, Sue Rodriguez (sic). And I would like to talk to her.
Good evening, Ms. Rodriguez (sic). How are you, Ms. Torres? Excuse me. Perdona.
How you doing at this point? You have got your little one, one of the little ones, back and one is -- we don`t know where he is. How is your mood at this...
SUE TORRES, DYLAN AND SHASTA GROENE`S AUNT: I`m in a state of shock, Lisa. The reports that you showed at the beginning of the show I had not seen. That is news to me.
PINTO: Oh, I`m so sorry that you`ve...
TORRES: This is the first time I have heard that.
PINTO: Oh, Ms. Torres, for you to see this on television, that wasn`t our intent. Oh.
TORRES: I have a plea to everybody in the United States. Please, please, call your legislator. Let`s take care of our children. And let`s do something with these sex offenders.
PINTO: Well, we certainly didn`t want to be the one to tell you this bad, bad news. But Shasta is all right at this point.
TORRES: Yes, she is, a very strong little girl.
PINTO: And beautiful.
TORRES: God bless her, and her father, and the whole family. It`s been very trying for us. But my plea is to us as a nation -- it`s up to us to get these laws out there. And please, please, everybody must do this.
PINTO: Oh, Ms. Torres, you know, I`m a mother. I have two boys at home, one a little younger than Dylan. I have a little girl that`s due to come out in three weeks. And I hear these stories, and I cannot imagine the agony that you, your nephew, your niece, all the family are going through.
I mean, it`s our worst nightmare. We try to keep our kids safe, and there are these animals who are not registered, who have not checked in with their parole officers. Jessica Lunsford`s father is right. We need GPS satellite. We need to track these offenders.
TORRES: We need to back Mark Lunsford. We need to get together -- let`s please get together as a nation and protect our children. It is up to us now.
PINTO: And Shasta, tell me about Shasta and Dylan. I think they must have been very close. They were a year apart, right?
TORRES: Shasta and Dylan, yes, were very close. The children at their school called them salt and pepper, because of the...
PINTO: Salt and pepper, because you couldn`t -- because they were always together?
TORRES: Yes. They were very, very close.
PINTO: What is Dylan like? Is he a boy that rides his bike? Does he play sports? Does he trade Pokemon cards? Tell me about this little boy.
TORRES: The kids -- they`re very outdoorsy kids. If you know the area, they`re from Coeur d`Alene. They hike, and they fish, and they camp, and they just -- they love the outdoors.
PINTO: Well, Ms. Torres, thank so much for being with us tonight. I hope you`ll come back on the show. Really, our heart here in the studio, at CNN, everyone, we just -- we`re praying for you and your family`s speedy resolution to this nightmare.
I just quickly want to talk about the fact that Duncan was blogging -- yes, he was blogging -- until May 13th, three days before these alleged homicides. I have with me Dr. Howard in the studio, Lauren Howard in the studio.
What does this blog tell you about this man, I mean, these grandiose raving statements?
DR. LAUREN HOWARD, PSYCHOANALYST: Unfortunately, what the blog tells me is that this gentleman is a paranoid schizophrenic. He`s mentally ill.
PINTO: From that? From this you can get that?
HOWARD: Absolutely.
PINTO: I see a man who is grandiose, who has no remorse.
HOWARD: However, however, well, guess what? That`s what paranoid schizophrenia is. He has a break with reality. He`s delusioned. He has auditory hallucinations. But...
(CROSSTALK)
PINTO: Lauren, no excuse here. No excuse for this animal.
HOWARD: Oh, believe me, I`m not making an excuse. I`m just -- do you want to know what the problem? Do you believe this guy is normal?
PINTO: More from you later, Lauren. More from you later.
We at NANCY GRACE want desperately to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Take a look tonight at Debra Dickens who is just 43- years-old. She was found murdered in her own home from multiple stab wounds in Missouri on April 28th of 2002.
Please, if you know anything, call Carole Sund at 1-888-813-8389. Please help us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S MOTHER: It is now that I ask the world to help me. Two suspects were released yesterday who were involved in a violent crime against my daughter. These criminals are not only allowed to walk freely among the tourists and citizens of Aruba, but there are no limits where they may choose to travel. I am asking all mothers and fathers in all nations to hear my plea. I implore you, do not allow these two suspects, the Kalpoe brothers, to enter your country until this case is solved.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINTO: Those two suspects Beth Twitty is talking about, Deepak and Satish Kalpoe, were not charged. Their lawyers say they`re innocent. And they were let out of jail. Tonight, we`re going live to Aruba. We have a panel here in New York, Philadelphia. We have Linda Allison, Natalee Holloway`s aunt, who will be with us later.
But first, let`s go to CNN correspondent Dave Mattingly to tell us what`s happening in this Aruban case. Dave, anything new to report today since the Kalpoe brothers left -- left -- are no longer jailbirds?
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, earlier tonight, just a couple of hours ago, some new information coming to us in this case. Defense attorneys for the Kalpoe brothers confirmed to CNN that fishermen - - Aruban fishermen have told investigators that they did not see a couple matching the description of Natalee Holloway and Joran Van Der Sloot on the beach the night that Natalee was reported missing.
What they did see, however, was a white Suzuki on the beach. If you remember, a white Suzuki was one of the vehicles confiscated during a search of the Van Der Sloot home. This new information might have been responsible in part for the judge`s decision to keep Van Der Sloot in jail for another 60 days for questioning in this case. We don`t know if it had any bearing on his decision to release the Kalpoe brothers.
PINTO: And the Kalpoe brothers -- what car were they in?
MATTINGLY: They drove -- they drove a Honda, if I remember correctly, a silver-gray Honda. So that was not the vehicle seen on the beach.
PINTO: Dave, what I don`t understand here is these two people, who are no longer suspects, who are free to fly out of Aruba if they want to -- they can go to Surinam, they can go anywhere, much to the upset of the Holloway family -- these two young boys were with Natalee that night. They gave contradictory statements. They`re alleged to have received text messages. What gives here? Is the prosecution going to appeal this?
MATTINGLY: The prosecution has indicated that they will attempt to appeal the judge`s decision. They also claim they have other information that may come out in the future. Remember, these two young men are still officially considered suspects.
PINTO: Oh, they are?
MATTINGLY: And if any new information comes up in the future, they could easily be called back and put back behind bars for another round of questioning, just as they`ve gone through now since back in June.
PINTO: Dave, let`s hear what their attorney has to say about all of this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We got those statements just in the weekend. They were two persons, like I said, who went fishing. And they remember it very clearly because of other commitments that they had afterwards, that they were sure that that was that night.
And their detail is that they were there the whole night on the beach, fishing, and almost at the same place where supposedly Joran and the girl was and where they went swimming and where the girl remained afterwards and he left her there. And they are so convinced that on that date, during, if I`m not mistaken, 12:00 o`clock at night and 5:00 o`clock in the morning, there was no person, no girl, no other person on that beach.
So I think -- I think it must be clear now that that just did not take place as it was indicated. What I also remember from the statement is that they indicated that they have seen a car, a different car than my client`s car, because from where they were, it`s not the road where my client and his brother dropped Joran and the girl, but that they had seen a Jeep-type of car during -- in that timeframe that stayed for about 30 to 40 minutes. That was the only thing that they saw that was abnormal for that day. But besides that, they didn`t see anything.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINTO: Well, that was the attorney for the Kalpoe brothers, David Kock, talking about what he described as an eye -- fishermen who were eyewitnesses to the beach where Joran and Natalee were allegedly last seen.
Let me bring in Alex Sanchez from my panel, a criminal defense attorney here in New York. This guy`s a dream for you, isn`t he, Alex? This is an eyewitness.
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, certainly, an eyewitness is helpful to the defense. And if this witness can provide some information which is helpful to the Kalpoe brothers, you know, great. But you know, I hope all Americans watching what`s going on in Aruba appreciate what a debacle is occurring over there and how far superior our system of justice and how far superior our investigators are in this country.
PINTO: Alex, you don`t have to wave the American flag. For once, I find myself agreeing with a defense attorney. From the beginning, two men of color, who with a crummy physical description of black shirt and black pants, are pick up. Then we have, you know, the father advising -- the local father who is entrenched with the local prosecutor giving his son advice. I mean, what gives? In our jurisdiction here, Alex...
SANCHEZ: Yes?
PINTO: ... wouldn`t a special prosecutor be brought in? You practice in the Bronx. I practiced in Queens in New York. There`s no way a local DA would handle case.
SANCHEZ: I think a special prosecutor would be brought in because chances are, this judge, the father of the prime suspect in this case, knows everybody on the island.
PINTO: Right.
SANCHEZ: They should bring somebody in from the home country in there and be a complete objective, independent investigator here because...
PINTO: Well, my -- Alex...
SANCHEZ: Yes?
PINTO: ... my understanding is they have brought in a judge from Curacao, at this point. but my problem is with the early investigation here, in the first weeks, in the first days. Why wasn`t Joran questioned. Why wasn`t his car searched?
Dr. Wecht, talk to me about the importance of seizing and searching a crime scene immediately after the alleged disappearance of a person like Natalee Holloway.
DR. CYRIL WECHT, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, obviously, we suggest, as it is so important for the homicide detective to become involved immediately, so it is equally important, if not moreso, for the forensic scientist to be there, the forensic pathologist and the criminalist. You want to look to see if you can identify any kind of trace evidence -- hair fiber, thread, any sort of bodily fluid stains...
PINTO: Dr. Wecht, but what about this white Suzuki. Is it too late to search this car now, the white Suzuki?
WECHT: Well, it`s never too late. The question is, what are you likely to find? But it still should be done. The car itself should be searched very, very thoroughly for all of these things. At that time, the car should have been looked at to see whether or not there was any evidence that came from the beach, any particular pieces of, you know, geological material that might have...
PINTO: Sure.
WECHT: ... been adhering. So these are the kinds of things that should have been done. Why the boy was brought in and released, what, the next day, I believe...
PINTO: Right.
WECHT: ... and why the vehicle wasn`t...
PINTO: Dr. Wecht...
WECHT: ... searched -- it really staggers the imagination.
PINTO: Dr. Wecht, I`m hearing in my ear that we have Natalee`s aunt with us Linda Allison, and I`d really like to hear from her because the family`s been through a lot, especially with the release of these two suspects.
Ms. Allison, are you with us?
LINDA ALLISON, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S AUNT: I`m with you.
PINTO: How is the mood in your camp these days, with these two boys wandering around, free to fly to Surinam? I heard your sister-in-law, I believe it is, former sister-in-law, Beth Holloway Twitty -- very emotional press conference. And my heart just went out to her.
ALLISON: Yes. Very -- it was a very moving, very emotional day for us, actually, yesterday and today, just hearing the release of the Kalpoe brothers, When we feel like the three of them are the link to us finding Natalee. And it`s just been very frustrating. We also had a meeting with the prosecuting attorney, who assured us that these two boys are still suspects.
PINTO: She says that...
ALLISON: ... and that they are continuing...
PINTO: She says that, Ms. Allison. Doesn`t it upset you that there`s no restrictions on their release? This judge basically said they can do what they want. The police can`t watch them. They can leave the island. I mean...
ALLISON: You know, it is very -- it`s very upsetting, and when we also know that, as far as visitation to the prison that`s here on the island, where Joran Van Der Sloot is -- he`s allowed an unlimited number of people coming to visit him. And nothing is videoed, no audio, nothing recorded on that.
PINTO: Including his father, the former prosecutor and judge, who we know has given him legal advice in the past, correct?
ALLISON: That`s correct. And so if he continues to tell him to remain silent, it makes it difficult.
PINTO: Well, Ms. Allison...
ALLISON: You know, he can...
PINTO: I was really pleased to hear your senator is getting involved, that -- that, you know, here we are, fighting for you in this country. We want to get the FBI more involved. We want this case to proceed in a more expeditious manner. My best wishes to you and your family.
ALLISON: Thank you so much.
PINTO: Quickly, Debra, after the break, I want to hear from you about your take on this case because to me, this is a defense attorney`s dream. But quickly, a short break. We`ll be back on the Aruba story after the break.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVE HOLLOWAY, NATALEE`S FATHER: Well, I would like to see all of them come together and tell us what is the real story. You know, we`ve heard already five or six different stories, and -- you know, until we find Natalee, that`ll be the big puzzle.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NADIRA RAMIREZ, MOTHER OF KALPOE BROTHERS: I should have been worried, yes. But why? Why? I mean, they -- all their proof. We have patience. The boy had patience, our lawyers, myself, father, sister. And we try to hold up and give them their time to do their work, you know? But I know that they are innocent, and they will be out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINTO: That was Deepak and Satish Kalpoe`s mom talking about their release in Aruba.
I`m Lisa Pinto, in for Nancy Grace tonight. Thanks for being with us.
Let me go to my panel of legal experts that I have here. Deb Opri, I, you know, want to get to you because to me, this case is a dream for your side of the fence! I mean, bungle, no search warrant, no statement. They get to talk to each other. They`re handcuffed in the back of a police car.
DEBRA OPRI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You keep saying it`s a criminal defense attorney`s dream. It`s -- it`s nothing right now of a crime scene investigation, in my mind. Where`s the crime scene? Was it at the club? Was it at the hotel? Was it on a beach? Right now, for all lack of evidence -- no DNA, no trace evidence...
PINTO: Debra!
OPRI: ... no criminal...
PINTO: Debra!
(CROSSTALK)
PINTO: You don`t need a body!
OPRI: We have a missing -- we have a missing girl. You want the United States to really get involved? I do. Why don`t we just call it a kidnapping, a missing woman? Why don`t we extend beyond the island? We`ve covered every inch of that island. We`ve gone to the ocean. Have we gone to neighboring islands? Why don`t we put an all-out search for this woman...
PINTO: Wait a minute! Wait a minute, Debra!
OPRI: ... so the United States can get involved, Lisa?
PINTO: I know -- this is the -- this is the sex slave theory.
OPRI: It`s not a criminal defense attorney`s dream.
PINTO: Wait! Wait! My turn here, Debra!
OPRI: It`s a joke.
PINTO: This is the...
OPRI: It`s a joke.
PINTO: This is the sex slave theory, right, that she`s in Venezuela...
OPRI: That`s right.
PINTO: ... as a prostitute. I`m sorry, I`m going with the common- sense answer...
OPRI: Body dumped in the ocean?
PINTO: ... the fact that she was with a young man who...
(CROSSTALK)
PINTO: Debra, you know what?
OPRI: What did he do? What did he do with her body?
PINTO: Your first clue is it`s an island, and there are a lot of currents going a lot of different directions off that island, and maybe that`s why we can`t find her. I want to get Nancy out there diving.
OPRI: Lisa, I don`t dismiss the fact that he might have killed her. I don`t dismiss the fact that he might have gotten to the point where the body was dumped. But at this point in time, she`s still missing. Why can`t we expand the search to neighboring islands, to maybe go into the slave trade?
PINTO: Debra, let me ask you this. If your client had a father who was an ex-prosecutor, who was heard giving advice, asking friends of your client what they had said to the police, making a statement like, Well, you know, they can`t prosecute a murder without a body, wouldn`t you think that maybe your client had gotten some good legal advice from Dad?
OPRI: Well, let me answer it this way. It certainly wouldn`t be a criminal defense attorney`s dream to have a client with a father like this guy. This guy, if anything, is causing a lot of havoc. Maybe, in a sense, he`s alluding to a guilt of his son when there shouldn`t be any. Maybe he interjected himself some in something he shouldn`t have and he made it worse.
PINTO: Well, Debra, I`m delighted to spar with you.
Let me go to Alex Sanchez because I`d like to hear another defense attorney`s take on this. Alex...
SANCHEZ: Well, I just...
PINTO: Come on! No statement, no nothing!
SANCHEZ: Well, that`s why I think the Kalpoe brothers were released, by the way, because I think they have secretly struck a deal with the prosecution in the case. They`re not revealing this information, of course...
PINTO: Oh!
SANCHEZ: ... but secretly, behind the scenes, they`re meeting with the prosecutors and they`re giving information about the whereabouts of Holloway and where her body is located because, in my mind, there`s no doubt that...
PINTO: You know what?
SANCHEZ: ... unfortunately, she`s dead.
PINTO: In New York, Alex -- if this was New York, I would agree with you. But under Dutch law, you`re not allowed to plea bargain. You`re not allowed to turn state`s evidence. That`s my understanding.
SANCHEZ: Well, you know, they may not...
PINTO: Whole different system!
SANCHEZ: The Kalpoe brothers may not have committed a crime. Now, true, they gave some, you know, contradictory statements. But they may have some information. They want to throw off any...
PINTO: Alex...
SANCHEZ: ... suspicion away from themselves and finally throw themselves to the prosecutor and say, Listen, this is what we know.
PINTO: Alex, wouldn`t you like to see those text messages that were allegedly sent by Joran Van Der Sloot?
SANCHEZ: I would like to see them...
PINTO: And these phone calls?
SANCHEZ: And the police seen them.
PINTO: Yes.
SANCHEZ: And they know what`s in them, and that`s why, probably, he`s being held in jail and everybody else is released.
PINTO: I got to tell you, this case makes me glad to be an American because we are allowed to know what the police have. We get to see the complaints. We get to hear the state`s evidence. We get to go in the courtroom. Do you know that Beth Holloway Twitty was not allowed into the hearing when these boys were released? She to wait outside in the hallway. There is not the -- the idea of victims` rights under Dutch law -- it`s -- it`s just minimal. And I think that`s one of the real tragedies in this case.
Let me bring in Lauren Howard. You know, they`re not allowed in the courtroom.
HOWARD: Right.
PINTO: They see these people getting -- it`s a revolving door of suspects...
HOWARD: Right. Right. Right.
PINTO: ... in and out. What is this family going through?
HOWARD: Well, they`re completely rendered impotent by the system, by the Dutch system. But the event, in and of itself -- I mean, I don`t think Debra Opri is that far afield from saying that we really don`t know that a crime was committed here. It`s very possible that Natalee had had too much to drink and wandered off and got -- you don`t know!
PINTO: Oh, Lauren! Come on!
HOWARD: You do not -- you have no evidence. You have no evidence!
PINTO: Wandered where?
HOWARD: You`ve got a teenage boy and a teenage girl necking on a beach. That`s what you have.
PINTO: Lauren -- Lauren...
HOWARD: That`s all you have.
PINTO: No disrespect. Her bags were packed. Her passport was ready.
HOWARD: Absolutely. She was ready to go.
PINTO: This was a golden girl! She was in Bible study!
HOWARD: And golden girls have accidents. It could -- we don`t know.
PINTO: She drowned?
HOWARD: The only thing we know...
PINTO: Is that what you`re telling me?
HOWARD: ... is we don`t know.
PINTO: You think she drowned?
HOWARD: It`s possible.
PINTO: Why wouldn`t Joran say that?
HOWARD: It`s all possible.
PINTO: Why wouldn`t he say, Look...
HOWARD: Because he didn`t know because he left her on the -- we don`t know. All I`m saying is this is complete conjecture for...
(CROSSTALK)
HOWARD: ... point of view, they are completely rendered impotent by the system and the circumstances.
PINTO: You know what I...
HOWARD: No one knows anything.
PINTO: Lauren, I`ve watched these press conferences. I would not say that Beth Holloway Twitty is an impotent woman. I would say she is an alpha mom guarding her cub! She`s been on the news, in the press.
HOWARD: But you asked...
PINTO: She is a tough cookie!
PINTO: But Lisa, wait a second. You`re contradicting yourself because you`re saying to me, What is it doing to this family that she can`t be in the courtroom? And what I`m saying back to you is it is rendering the family impotent. They have nothing to do except call for help. That`s all they can do. And that`s why they`re doing it. They are doing exactly what a mother cub does.
PINTO: No, no!
HOWARD: They are doing what a parent instinctively does, anything they can do to protect their child. And that`s the -- their only recourse right now because there`s nothing else they can do.
PINTO: Right.
HOWARD: All their doors are closed.
PINTO: But Lauren, you can understand how you can be victimized but you can fight back like this family.
HOWARD: And you`ve got to! That`s called survival. That is their -- it`s the most beautiful part of humanity, to see the parents doing this. They have no option.
PINTO: I am -- thank you, Lauren. I`m tremendously impressed by the courage of this family.
Quick break, folks. We`ll be back with more.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVE HOLLOWAY: I just can`t understand that three kids -- you know, they were involved in foul play -- could have disposed of Natalee in such a way that we couldn`t find her. So that leads me to believe that possibly there`s other people involved in the case. And until you prove or somebody proves me otherwise, I just got that feeling.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINTO: Good evening. I`m Lisa Pinto, in for Nancy Grace tonight. We`re live in Aruba, talking to the family of Natalee Holloway. But first, let`s go out to CNN correspondent Dave Mattingly to hear more about the search for Natalee. David, what do they have planned?
MATTINGLY: What does the family or the investigation?
PINTO: The investigation. Tell me. Are Equusearch still down there? I understand the Dutch are sending planes. Are these planes too late?
MATTINGLY: Well, they are coming in with a very high-tech approach to what they`ve been -- what they`ve been doing before, to augment all of that on-the-ground searching that occurred here in Aruba. They were flying overhead today, a very thunderous roar as they came flying over the resorts, everyone looking up at the sky as the F-16s come through. They were doing a test run today. They will be coming back through with infrared equipment and other special cameras that can literally photograph every square inch of this island. They`ll be concentrating particularly on those areas where the foot searches were not able to get into. So it could yield something that could be helpful.
PINTO: Let me ask Linda Allison, who`s right next to you, Natalee`s aunt -- you`ve been through a tough week. It`s already been a tough start to the week. What are the family`s plans for the rest of the week? How are you going to direct the search? What are you going to do?
ALLISON: Well, I continue to meet with Equusearch and get information. I`ve been out some with them, where they have been making dives. I`ve been on the coastline just, again, trying to be involved and stay busy every day because just sitting in a hotel is not very productive and not very good on the stress level. We hope that they`ll continue -- Equusearch is going to be here at least another week -- continue to pound the pavement there and be out searching. And I`ve just had a plea that the Dutch marines and the Equusearch can work in conjunction with one another because you have Equusearch out doing...
PINTO: Linda...
ALLISON: ... their thing, and you have the Dutch marines not doing -- you know, not really coordinating the activity.
PINTO: Must be so -- thank you, Linda. Must be so frustrating that everybody`s not working together. Thank you so much. We`ll stay with this story.
I want to thank all my guests tonight. Remember, all our talk is meaningless if you`re not listening, you`re not watching and participating in this debate on criminal justice. Thanks for being with us tonight.
Coming up, we have headlines from all around the world and Larry on CNN. I`m Lisa Pinto, signing off for tonight. Hope to see you here tomorrow night.
END
