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Nancy Grace
Nancy Grace for July 6, 2005, CNNHN
Aired July 06, 2005 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LISA PINTO, HOST: Here we go again. Another little girl abducted from the safety of her own home in the middle of the night, and another investigation underway.
Tonight, we`re going to go live to Iowa to try and figure out what happened to this kid, Evelyn Miller. Take a look at this picture. She is such a little cutie. And it`s been six days since anyone has seen her. Few in the press are covering this story, but tonight we`re going to cover it, we`re going to investigate and try to get some answers.
Makes me think, how do we all know our kids are safe at home in their beds tonight?
Good evening, everybody. I`m Lisa Pinto in for Nancy Grace.
And I really can`t believe it. I mean, this is the summer of missing children. Please stay with us as we go live to Idaho where Shasta is recovering after seven weeks of terror. You know Dylan is still missing, but stay with us because we are still waiting for the DNA results on those remains from Montana. Could it be Dylan Groene?
But first, let`s cover little Evelyn Miller`s disappearance. Just 5- years-old, last seen -- get this -- on her mother`s couch in her own apartment last Friday. She wasn`t alone. The mother`s boyfriend and her 1- and 2-year-old brothers were sleeping in their beds right next to her.
Tonight, in Floyd, Iowa, I have with me Fred Santiago (sic) from the "Des Moines Register," and Evelyn Miller`s aunt, Brandi Hoffman.
Let me go to them first. Fred, tell me how the search is going at this point for little Evelyn, Frank?
FRANK SANTIAGO, "DES MOINES REGISTER": The word we get, the latest word we have, is that the investigation is continuing and searching the area where the girl lived.
PINTO: And we got a ton of volunteers here, Frank, right? People are coming from all over to find Evelyn.
SANTIAGO: That`s true, even from out of state, I understand.
PINTO: That`s great. And I understand no resource has been spared. We`re talking divers, dogs, helicopters, flyers, anything else?
SANTIAGO: Dogs, people who have driven down in their RVs, have come from Minnesota, from out of state, to help go through the cornfields, through the riverbeds.
PINTO: Well, it`s a small town, right, Frank? Only 360 people or something like that?
SANTIAGO: That`s right. And the sheriff himself has said about a thousand people so far.
PINTO: Wow.
Let me go Brandi Hoffman who I understand is the sister of Casey Fredericksen, Evelyn`s mom`s boyfriend. He was the man that was asleep at house when little Evelyn disappeared.
Thanks for being with us tonight, Brandi.
BRANDI HOFFMAN, AUNT OF EVELYN MILLER: Hello.
PINTO: Hi. Can`t imagine the agony your family is going through. What your brother and your sister-in-law-to-be, what are they doing right now?
HOFFMAN: Right now, I think they`re back at the apartment. They`re trying to relax a little bit. They`re trying to keep busy, keep their mind off what`s happening here.
PINTO: This little kid, she is so cute. I have a 5-year-old, also a little photogenic face. Last night, he was playing baseball at my parent`s house.
If I were to find -- get the phone call that he was gone, I wouldn`t know how to handle it. How is your sister-in-law handling it?
HOFFMAN: Obviously, she was the person who discovered that Evelyn was missing in the first place. She came home from work to find Evelyn gone. So she`s distraught. I think, as the days go on, a numbness is setting in. But she`s doing OK. She`s holding up well.
PINTO: Good for her. Brandi, this is not a big apartment, right? I mean, there was not -- it wasn`t too far away. The little kid was sleeping near your brother, right?
HOFFMAN: It isn`t a large apartment. However, all the walls in the apartment are made of concrete, so it`s pretty soundproof.
PINTO: What was his reaction when he saw the door open and his little stepdaughter gone?
HOFFMAN: I would say he was horrified. You know, he has raised Evelyn since she was born, and he`s her father.
PINTO: Wow.
HOFFMAN: She calls him daddy. And you know, he feels as any biological parent would feel.
PINTO: And I understand she`s -- what is she into, same thing as a normal 5-year-old, Barbies?
HOFFMAN: She`s into Barbies, yes, "My Little Pony." She loves to play dress up.
PINTO: Oh, the pink ponies, the little pink ponies that they comb the hair and all that? Yes.
HOFFMAN: That`s right.
PINTO: Let me ask you about these two people that are not suspects, they haven`t been charged, but they say that they saw her at 2:00 in the morning in the apartment. Do you know who these people are? Their names are Randy Patrie and Dan Slick. Do you know anything about these guys?
HOFFMAN: I really don`t. I`m not from this area. I grew up here, but I moved away 10 years ago, and I don`t have any information about them.
PINTO: Did your brother tell you anything about them? Had he ever seen them before? Does he know them?
HOFFMAN: They`re acquaintances. It`s my understanding that one of them used to live in their building, but beyond that, I don`t really know much about them.
PINTO: You to know which one, Randy or Dan?
HOFFMAN: Dan used to live in the building.
PINTO: Do you know that Randy has been in trouble before? Do you know that, in fact, he`s a two-time felon? Did you know that?
HOFFMAN: I`ve heard things, but I haven`t confirmed that for myself, no.
PINTO: Let me go back to Frank Santiago from the "Des Moines Register." Frank, what can you tell me about Randy Patrie`s criminal record?
SANTIAGO: Well, we searched the court records. And both men have had charges against them. None of them have involved what you might call a violent crime.
PINTO: But you know, I did my own research, too, Frank. And what surprised me -- I`m looking at the printout we have that was verified by the Department of Corrections in Iowa -- on one of these offenses he served five out of 10 years, and the statute is "providing a gathering place to do drugs." And that`s, I guess, the so-called Woodstock law where, if people are doing drugs in a location you`re responsible for, you`re liable for it.
The other was a burglary, a class-D felony, and he got five years on that. And guess what? If he`d served the full sentence, he would have been out July 2nd of 2005, the day after she disappeared. But as with most prisoners, he did not serve the full sentence.
SANTIAGO: That`s right.
PINTO: Yes. But, again, not a suspect, just a guy who says he saw her at that point.
Let me go quickly to an expert. We have Paul Burke who is from the Center for Missing and Exploited Children. I understand they`ve been instrumental in helping in the search and using their professional expertise.
Paul, can you tell me about the search?
PAUL BURKE, CENTER FOR MISSING AND EXPLOITED CHILDREN: I sure can. Most of it`s been spent providing local help with managing both the resources and providing a plan for the sheriff on the search effort.
PINTO: And what are your expectations at this point? We`re still pretty early in the game, aren`t we?
BURKE: Well, we`re still going to be pretty aggressive, in terms of searching areas that the subject could probably be in. We`re looking everywhere for Evelyn right now, but primarily we`ve gone down from real specific area around the apartment complex to a more broader area around the community.
PINTO: And the resources are being used, right, dogs, divers, I mean, a lot of sophisticated-type stuff here?
BURKE: A lot of it is sophisticated, that`s right. We use a lot of dogs, helicopters, forward-looking infrared. But a lot of it is really low-tech, too.
PINTO: OK.
BURKE: Mainly putting eyeballs on the ground.
PINTO: And you have had a massive response, I understand, to this search for this little girl.
BURKE: Quite large for a community like this, yes, ma`am.
PINTO: Paul, can you tell me any good news? You know, every time I hear these stories about little girls disappearing, we don`t know if they walked out the door, or if someone took them. Can you tell me anything that indicates some good news here?
BURKE: Well, the good news is that the energy is high and people still have hope. Certainly, the folks in the management staff and the volunteers have hope that Evelyn will be found. And we continually live with that every day. We keep striving to find her, and we`ll continue to work on it.
PINTO: To Dr. Austin, who`s here in the studio with me, a psychotherapist. Dr. Austin, I have a 5-year-old. You know kids. How likely is it, do you think, that this young lady got up sometime after 2:00 a.m. and went wandering, walk about?
LESLIE AUSTIN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Honestly, I don`t think it`s that likely, from what I know about this case. Her family said that she had a good sense of boundaries. You have to look at her history. Was she a kid who wandered off a lot? Apparently not.
That said she knew not to go off the property. I`d be very surprised if she just got up and left. I`m sure there is some kind of foul play here, I`m sad to say.
PINTO: Sad news. More on this story after the break.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The only thing we can do right now is to pray and to keep hopes up. This is the worst thing I`ve felt in my life. I have not had pain like this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHERIFF RICK LYNCH, FLOYD COUNTY SHERIFF`S DEPARTMENT: It`s really a day-by-day, because it`s -- even you can say a minute-by-minute, because who knows what`s going to transpire during our searches or during our criminal investigation? So we`ve just got to keep planning and saying, "OK, we`re setting up at 7:30 again. We`re going to go out and search some more." We`ve just got to keep on going.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINTO: That was one of the police officers talking about the search for this Iowa 5-year-old, the cutest little girl, Evelyn Miller, who`s been missing since 5 o`clock, disappeared from her home.
And the police are playing it pretty close to their chest in this case. We don`t know a whole lot except that two people say they saw her at 2:00 in the morning.
And we know that a search warrant was issued and executed on a home in Charles City, Iowa, and that some bags of stuff were taken out. We can`t tell you who`s home. We`re waiting for the police and the district attorney`s office to give us more.
Let me go to Brandi Hoffman, the relative, the aunt-to-be of this young lady. Brandi, when you heard there was a search warrant being issued in this case, what were the family`s thoughts?
HOFFMAN: I think that we were just hopeful that a -- it looks like they`re narrowing in on, if somebody had something to do with it and who those people are.
PINTO: Brandi, tell me what she looks like. We saw her picture, her cute face. Everyone out there who`s looking for her, anyone in neighboring states, what should -- who should they be looking for? How tall is she? How big is she?
HOFFMAN: You know, it`s hard for me to judge. She`s about 42-inches tall, 42 pounds. You know, she`s a typical 5-year-old. She`s tall and lanky. She`s got beautiful blonde hair and a beautiful smile.
PINTO: And my producers telling me that on the screen you`ll see a tip line that you can call. If you`ve seen this young lady anywhere, call this number, 641-228-1821. I think public information -- we learned in Shasta`s case that the public are the key to solving these cases. They see a little girl, they call 911, the girl is found.
Brandi, are you happy with the way the search is going, the community support and so forth?
HOFFMAN: I couldn`t be happier. The people up here in my hometown continue to amaze me. We have had 1,100 volunteers, is the latest number that I heard today come out, in addition to all of the law enforcement agencies that are participating in this. You know, state agencies coming to send volunteers out. We`ve been hearing that private employers in the Charles City area have been giving their employees paid time to come out and search instead of being at work. It`s great.
PINTO: Brandi, your brother`s quite young, isn`t he? He`s responsible for three kids, and he`s a young guy, right?
HOFFMAN: He`s 26.
PINTO: And three kids. I`m about to have my third kid. I know how much responsibility that is. What advice do you have for your younger brother? He`s your younger brother, right?
HOFFMAN: Yes. I just, you know, hope he sticks in there, hope he continues to be strong. He`s amazing me with his strength. Noel, Andy and Lindsey, Evelyn`s other parents, all of them, we`re all coming together now. The four of them are sticking together, and it`s wonderful.
PINTO: Brandi, you`re standing next to Paul Burke. And I`d like to talk to him again because he is an expert in these types of searches.
Paul, your agency, how many kids have you found in the past?
BURKE: I started working with Team Adam about mid-January, early- February. And in that past case, I don`t have the actual national statistics that we found. I`ve been on a couple of successful cases, and in other ones we`ve been able to find the individuals, but they haven`t been quite as good outcomes.
PINTO: What is the key to success, would you say? Is it primacy, is it -- what is it?
BURKE: I think speed is of the essence. When these kids get lost, families have to report them immediately. And they have to get both the law enforcement agencies involved and their own communities involved to provide some really quick action and response.
PINTO: Well, one thing that worries me is every summer we hear a bunch of these stories. Two years ago, it was Samantha Runyon. We learned that a -- Alejandro Villa had murdered and raped her, snatched her from her front yard. This year, we`ve heard about the poor little Lunsford girl, Jessica. We`ve heard about Sarah Lunde, all these kids disappearing, and we`re not getting the answers with need, Paul.
Look at this picture. I`m showing the viewers a picture of four little children that were murdered this year. On the bottom, Matal Sanchez, his step-grandmother is a suspect in that case. We have Sarah Lunde. We have Jessica Lunsford. What is going on in this country where our most innocent are the most preyed upon, Paul?
Well, let me go quickly to a sound bite from the sheriff`s office to hear where the police are with this case.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: During the course of this search, the initial search efforts were concentrated are on residents on Quarry Road. Both trained and untrained searchers searched the fields in adjacent to her residence. After search efforts with volunteers ceased during the first evening, infrared imaging was used to detect a child during the evening hours with no result.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINTO: Frank Santiago, you heard the sheriff, you heard the search. You`re right there. Tell us how the mood is in the community.
SANTIAGO: I`m sorry, I missed the question again.
PINTO: Oh, I was just saying, the sheriff is talking about a search that we`re experiencing remotely. Are people hopeful they`re going to find this young lady in a cornfield?
SANTIAGO: Yes. I think the reaction has been overwhelming, considering you`re talking about a community of only 500 people, and in a very rural area of the state of Iowa.
PINTO: Well, all I can tell you is, here in the big city of New York, we hope that you find Evelyn and we hope that you find her soon.
We at NANCY GRACE want desperately to help solve unsolved homicides and find missing people. Tonight, take a look at Katlyn Mlnarik. Just 15- years-old, and again someone who disappeared, she disappeared from Hoskins, Nebraska, on May 15th.
Police believe she may be traveling with two men in a black Mercury Sable, the license plate 7C9614. If you have any information on Katlyn Mlnarik, please contact the Wayne County Sheriff`s Office. The number is 402-375-1911 or go online to beyondmissing.com. Please help us. Remember, a tip from the Washington area led the FBI to a sex offender.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NOEL MILLER, MOTHER OF MISSING GIRL: She was a very smart girl. She knew how to read all the Dr. Seuss books, and count to 100, and everything. She is a very bright girl, and we just want her home and safe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINTO: Well, she can read "Sam I Am." That`s quite an accomplishment for a 5-year-old finishing kindergarten. Cute little Evelyn Miller disappeared in Iowa. That was her mom reaching out, trying to find Evelyn.
Let me go quickly to Frank Santiago from the Des Moines reporter because I want to know how the police know these two men saw her at 2:00 a.m. I`m talking about Randy Patrie with a criminal record, and Dan, his friend, Dan. How do we know this?
SANTIAGO: Well, the information came to the police from the mother.
PINTO: OK.
SANTIAGO: The two individuals are friends of this gentleman who lives in the apartment with the mother.
PINTO: Are they friends or acquaintances? Because I`ve heard that they don`t really know him that well. There is a mixed story here.
SANTIAGO: Well, I don`t know. We`ve been told that they were acquaintances of the gentleman that lives in the apartment. Also, one of the two had been dating a woman and lived in an apartment below where the Millers live and was sort of familiar with the apartment.
PINTO: And, Frank, am I right in thinking that this woman had a 5- year-old child who was a playmate of little Evelyn`s?
SANTIAGO: A playmate, probably so would be a good description, although I don`t know that for a fact. Nobody told us that, but they...
PINTO: Which I think we can make a leap. I lived in an apartment building. My kids played with other kids on other floors.
SANTIAGO: Sure.
PINTO: That means that those people in that apartment saw Evelyn, knew what she looked like, had access to her. I think we can extrapolate that much.
Again, they`re not suspects, but let me just go to my panel here, veteran criminal defense attorneys who handled homicides, rapes, kidnaps. Let me start with Daniel Horowitz.
Daniel, are you with us?
DANIEL HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I`m here.
PINTO: We`ve heard a lot, more disturbing news. What are your thoughts at this point?
HOROWITZ: Unfortunately, you only have two logistical search options. One is -- and the one we hope for -- that the reason the door was open, and we don`t have any evidence that I`ve heard -- that there was some sort of forcible entry is that this little, precocious, very bright girl wandered out and is lost somewhere in this very open area.
PINTO: You say that, Daniel, but the grandma says she wouldn`t do that. The mother says she was a responsible kid. She would not do that. Where does that -- if you were...
HOROWITZ: You know, Lisa, kids do that. That`s what kids do. Kids at 4, 5, 6, 10, 12 are not responsible. That`s why they`re kids. Let`s pray that she was a normal kid, and woke up, and wandered, because the other alternative is horrible.
PINTO: Dan, you`ve got your defense attorney hat on, and I can hear that`s a great -- you know, that`s a great story for the jury, "The child went wandering, ergo my client is not guilty." But what about these two guys? What should the police be doing right now to follow up in this investigation?
HOROWITZ: Well, they`ve done everything -- look, we have to assume, Lisa, that it was their home or related to them that was searched. What other evidence do the police have? Who else are suspects to get a judge to sign a warrant to search.
So they`ve looked in that house and apparently found nothing, Lisa. So let`s go expand the search. Let`s go through those cornfields. Maybe this is a girl who wandered off.
PINTO: Let`s go to your colleague here, Richard Herman. Richard, do you agree or disagree?
RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I agree, Lisa. But I also would check the registers for any registered sex offenders in the area. I`d go after these guys. I`d interrogate them within a certain 10-, 20- mile radius of this house here.
I wouldn`t give up. But you know, as Marc Klaas says, whenever we see them on television, each day is critical.
PINTO: Richard, just to give you a little background here, we don`t know anything -- we don`t that they`re even persons of interest, these two people. We`ve invited the police on. We`ve invited the district attorneys on.
At this point, they haven`t told us anything about their case. We are trying to get a copy of that search warrant, as soon as it`s unsealed, so that we can tell the viewers what the police used to search that apartment, and that`ll give us more information.
Dr. Austin, back to this issue of kids in the summer. What does this do to the libidos of the people who take them?
AUSTIN: Well, it`s not only the libidos, but kids more likely to be out in summer. They`re not in school. They`re less supervised. The weather`s nice. They`re out and around. And it`s easy at night for people to move around untraced, also, you know. In the summer weather, everybody is moving around. Everybody`s out and about.
PINTO: And what advice would you give parents like myself, parents out there watching this show, hearing horror story after horror story every night?
AUSTIN: Well, I`m really sorry to say this, because this sounds like a great small community in Iowa, like the typical American town, you need a security system. You need to lock doors. And I hate saying that. You shouldn`t have to, but you do.
You can`t trust that your child`s going to be safe if your home is wide open anymore. And isn`t that a sorry comment on our culture?
PINTO: And in the next block, we`re going to be talking about Shasta and Dylan Groene. And, boy, have we learned that sex offenders need to be kept under lock-and-key, because you don`t know when and why they will strike.
I just find -- I think what is so alarming about this case is that the entire community is mobilized and there is no trace of this little girl, poof, vanished at 2:00 in the morning.
When we come back, we`re going to go to Coeur d`Alene, Idaho, and investigate more about Shasta and Dylan.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You just have to have hope that you`ll find some trace. Somebody knows something. Somebody knows where she is.
BRIAN TIEDEMANN, FLOYD COUNTY SHERIFF`S DEPARTMENT: Thus far, no significant clues have been located. We have posted over 5,400 posters of Evelyn Miller. We have had 270 volunteers today, as well as 25 professionals to assist us with this effort.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CAPT. BEN WOLFINGER, KOOTENAI COUNTY SHERIFF`S DEPT.: Based upon the evidence that we have now, they think that Joseph Duncan is the only person involved in this case. He is being held without bond. Judge Wayman (ph) yesterday said that there will be no bond on the two kidnap charges. And on the unlawful flight to avoid prosecution, his bond was set at $2 million.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINTO: Captain Ben Wolfinger in Coeur D`Alene, Idaho, telling us about what`s going on with Shasta and Dylan Groene and the suspect who`s in custody, Joseph Edward Duncan. Remember him? A sex offender on the lam, now believed not only, as alleged by Shasta, to have raped her and raped her little brother, but certainly being looked at -- Shasta puts him at the home where her mother, her brother and her mother`s boyfriend were killed.
Let`s go straight out to Sean Callebs, who`s there in Idaho, to tell us what`s happening in the investigation. Hi, Sean.
SEAN CALLEBS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Lisa. Indeed, a lot of the information came out yesterday in the court documents we saw, the findings of probable cause. We heard a little more today from Captain Wolfinger and other investigators in this. And right now, they say that Joseph Duncan really is the only suspect in the crimes that really tormented this part of northern Idaho for the past seven weeks. As you mentioned, Shasta does put Mr. Duncan in the home, saying that he was the one who tied up Shasta`s mother, her 13-year-old brother, as well as her mother`s boyfriend.
Now, what happened after that, we`re entirely unclear of. But the captain says at this point, the investigators -- all the information they`ve been able to pull so far all point toward Duncan.
PINTO: And Sean, what about Dylan? We are waiting for the results of these remains in Montana. Do you have any word? Are we going to get them tonight?
CALLEBS: No, we`re not going to get them tonight. We`re probably not going to get them tomorrow. We talked to Captain Wolfinger earlier. He said by the end of the weekend, at the very earliest, that he really believes this is the kind of information that`s going to come out next week.
PINTO: I -- I...
CALLEBS: Put yourself in their shoes for just a minute. This is a young child.
PINTO: Right.
CALLEBS: His family`s simply been tormented.
PINTO: Right.
CALLEBS: They don`t want any kind of rush to judgment. The FBI is making sure all of the T`s are crossed and the I`s are dotted.
PINTO: Right. They were telling us 72 hours at first, which would be tonight or tomorrow, though. So I guess, you know, the timetable`s been stretched a little. Sean, I want to ask you -- this Judge Wayman sounds like my kind of judge. Remand on these counts, the kidnapping. We`re looking at the death penalty if the district attorney chooses to so do, and $2 million bail on the fugitive. Is that right? On the fact that he...
CALLEBS: That`s exactly right. but I think the big thing that everybody`s focusing on is the fact there`s absolutely no bond on these first degree kidnapping charges. So there`s not a prayer this guy`s going to walk out on the street any time soon. And you talked a bit earlier -- this is somebody who had been on the lam from assault charges on a child, at least one child that dates back to Minnesota back in April. But the judge there...
PINTO: Of this year, Sean!
CALLEBS: ... only set the bond at $15,000.
PINTO: Yes, that`s what I want to understand. I was looking -- I was hearing the transcript of that bail hearing before the judge, the judge who now tells us in Minnesota that, gee, he didn`t know the guy was a sex offender, or he couldn`t recall if the guy was a sex offender. It`s on the record! The prosecution said, Judge, this man is a registered sex offender. The public defender representing him acknowledges it. And $15,000 bail -- and I believe he only had to put up a partial -- a portion of that to get released.
This is the problem in the United States today, liberal judges letting these people go! What do you say, Sean?
CALLEBS: Well, I don`t know if it`s a liberal judge, and I don`t know exactly if -- certainly, you can find a whole host of people saying, indeed, this is a problem. We heard a very passionate message just a short while ago here, where the media has been assembled, from Steve Groene, Shasta`s father. He came out, thanked the community for all of their support, just -- this community has simply opened up their hearts to the Groene family.
But he also had some very harsh words for the fact that repeat sex offenders are allowed to go back out.
PINTO: And so he should!
CALLEBS: Getting back to that judge, he said -- he said if he would have known that this was -- Duncan was a level three. Now, level three, the highest level of sex offender...
PINTO: Right. With a gun, we`re talking...
CALLEBS: ... all the information that everybody has to shows that these are the kind of people...
PINTO: Sean, I...
CALLEBS: ... that repeatedly go out and attack again.
PINTO: ... think you`re buying the PR from the judge. I think you`re buying excuses after the fact. The sex offender -- as we know, the recidivism rates are very high.
Let me go to Captain Wolfinger, I`m sure will not publicly not express his feeling about these types of crimes, but let me ask you professionally, Captain Wolfinger, what do you judge the rate of recidivism to be on a sex offender?
WOLFINGER: Well, we know it`s very -- yes, we know it`s very high for a large number of sex offenders. It certainly depends on the crime initially. Some sex offenders are almost registries (ph) because of -- of maybe a consensual act between an 18-year-old male and 17-year-old female. We don`t see a very high recidivism rate with those type of offenders. But the pedophile offenders, we certainly do see a high recidivism rate.
PINTO: Captain Ben, Steve spoke, the father, Shasta`s and Dylan`s father, spoke today. It seemed very moving. Let`s take a listen to what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVE GROENE, SHASTA AND DYLAN`S FATHER: I want to start out by thanking the community, and certainly, even the nation for all the support, you know, and certainly all the gifts to Shasta. I`d like to say that Shasta`s doing well, which -- you know, it`s certainly more than we could have hoped for. She`s very upbeat, seems to be pretty healthy and she`s really glad to be home.
We`d like to thank the people from Denny`s. And I understand there was, you know, quite a few, not only the employees but some patrons, who made the calls that got Shasta back for us. And as far as our family is concerned, those people are heroes. And Shasta wanted me to thank them, also.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINTO: You know, as I hear Mr. Groene talk about the community support, that`s the -- it`s really -- a Shasta`s return -- that`s the only good news in this story so far.
Let me go quickly to my panel to look at this case. If they were making a bail application for this guy, is there anything you could say to get him out for his July 19 probable cause hearing? What would you argue for, Daniel?
DANIEL HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, there`s no way he`s going to get out, so I wouldn`t argue for it. What I would be doing right now, Lisa, is focusing on the fact -- and I know this is going to get a lot of bad reaction, but he also was a victim some time in his life...
PINTO: Oh!
HOROWITZ: ... when he was very, very young. And what turned him from victim to...
PINTO: Daniel!
HOROWITZ: ... perpetrator and monster?
PINTO: You`ve been reading...
(CROSSTALK)
PINTO: You`ve been reading this guy`s blog! Dusty (ph), blogging the fifth nail (ph).
HOROWITZ: Yes.
PINTO: I read this thing, and I`m disgusted. There`s no remorse. It`s grandiose. It`s self-serving. It`s no longer on the Web, folks. This is blogging the fifth nail. He makes a religious comparison, like the fifth nail that was alleged to have -- you know, that the gypsies were supposed to have taken from Christ`s body. He talks about amnesty for sex offenders prior to being charged. I mean, this is delusional ranting.
Mrs. Torres, I hope -- are you with us tonight, Mrs. Torres?
SUE TORRES, GREAT-AUNT OF SHASTA AND DYLAN GROENE: Yes, I am. Hi, Lisa.
PINTO: Hi. How are -- how -- I`m sorry. When this blog -- I`m getting a little emotional here, but it`s this delusions of this sick man. They must just be disgusting to you.
TORRES: You know, the family is hurting. Shasta`s hurting. The whole world should be hurting. We`re failing our children. We need to step up and take care of our kids.
PINTO: You made such a good...
TORRES: Please call your senators.
PINTO: You know, you said -- last night, we were talking about this when you were on the phone. You made such a good point, that it`s really our duty as Americans to make sure that these laws are charged, that Megan`s law has teeth, that sex offenders register. You know, I think you and Mr. Lunsford are -- and your family are going to lead this charge. And I hope I can help you in any way possible.
What -- what are you going to do to grieve, at this point, for Shasta`s seven weeks of terror? How are you -- are you going to -- are you people of faith?
TORRES: You know, I have been in contact with Real Life Ministries (ph) in Coeur D`Alene today, actually, from Gillette (ph). This church has been wonderful for us. The victims crime -- I`ve talked to Andy Kahan (ph) in Houston, Texas. He`s a crime victims. He`s wonderful. He`s helping. We`re dealing with crime victims up in Coeur D`Alene, the family. We`ve got a long healing process. Shasta`s got a long healing process. This little girl is amazing. She is absolutely amazing.
PINTO: She is one...
TORRES: And I...
PINTO: Well, I think your family`s amazing because in spite of tragedy, you are holding it together. And if there are any resources we can offer you here from CNN and the Nancy Grace show, please let us know.
We`ll be back on this story.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSEPH EDWARD DUNCAN, CHARGED WITH KIDNAPPING: May I consult with my attorney, please, for just one second, before I (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve concluded the court`s business today in your case. You can certainly consult with your attorney, as allowed (INAUDIBLE)
DUNCAN: Well, I mean, in regards to your asking if I had any questions. And I might have a question, but I wanted to consult an attorney first, if I could, Your Honor.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JESSE GROENE, BROTHER OF SHASTA AND DYLAN: It`s not like somebody else murdered my family, and then he just so happened to come by and there was two little kids who were just chilling there and he just picked them up, you know? This guy has history of tying people up. He has history of beating people. And that`s exactly what happened to my family, so you know, I know it was this guy. And plus, my little sister said she saw him there, and he was the only guy. So I have no doubt that he`s the one that murdered my family. If they don`t give Duncan the death penalty, I`m going to.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINTO: That was Jesse Groene, Shasta and Dylan`s big brother. At least he`s there for Shasta.
More on the story in Coeur D`Alene, Idaho. Let`s go straight out to Captain Ben Wolfinger, who`s been at the helm of this investigation since the beginning. Captain Ben, are you charging Duncan with homicide, at this point?
WOLFINGER: Well, when I spoke with the prosecutor earlier today, he said he`s going to wait until all of the evidence comes in that`s on his desk so he can review it to find out just exactly what he`s going to make those charges. That`s certainly the intent, though.
PINTO: But you`re pretty sure that Duncan was the man who killed Shasta`s mom, boyfriend and brother?
WOLFINGER: Yes, we are.
PINTO: OK. And do you have forensics to support that?
WOLFINGER: Yes, we do. That`s the case. We want all that evidence in a nice, tight package...
PINTO: Right.
WOLFINGER: ... so there is no question for the prosecutor.
PINTO: Will you tip your hand for us at NANCY GRACE? Fingerprints, trace evidence -- what do you have?
WOLFINGER: Well, I can`t explain that right now, all the details.
PINTO: OK.
WOLFINGER: The investigators had wanted to hold that back until they`re ready to present it to the prosecutor, then eventually in court, to make it public.
PINTO: Fair enough. But let me ask you this. Have you -- he`s refused to talk to you, right? He lawyered up, and that`s the end of it.
WOLFINGER: Right. That`s correct.
PINTO: Yes. Well, Ben, what -- Captain Ben, one more theory. How did one man overcome all these people? How did he get two kids out of the house, tie them up, as Shasta alleges, and allegedly kill them? How could one man do this? With a gun?
WOLFINGER: Well, we certainly had -- we certainly have our theories, and we hope by the end of the week to have those answers available for everyone because there`s -- certainly, the number one question out there right now is how did this one person do this, this heinous crime.
PINTO: We know in 1980, he used a gun. He was convicted of that, using a gun, raping a 14-year-old at gunpoint, so...
WOLFINGER: I know that`s in his history. We`re certainly looking at all those angles.
PINTO: Let me go to Sean Callebs. Sean, talk to me a little bit about what is going to happen on July 19. Is that a probable cause hearing?
CALLEBS: That`s the first preliminary hearing that he is scheduled to have. It will be before a different judge than heard the hearing through the video hookup just yesterday. And we`ve talked to a couple of lawyers, and actually, a couple of things, from what we understand could happen. His court-appointed defense attorney could ask for a stay in this. It could be moved down some. And perhaps Captain Wolfinger can talk about this a bit more, too. We`ve also heard some speculation that perhaps there could be some grand jury work involved in this. And so that could change the timetable, as well.
But certainly, everybody`s looking toward that mid to late July timeframe for Duncan to be back in court and to hear exactly specifically what information the authorities have here that can tie him to these crimes.
PINTO: Public defender looking for a change of venue here. Are they looking for -- to go somewhere else with this case, for a different jury pool?
CALLEBS: Well, that`s one thing we talked to Captain Wolfinger about first thing this morning because yesterday, when we got the criminal complaint, of course, we got that very explosive -- the deputy clerk`s notes about the hearing for probable cause that, really, Shasta detailed all the nuts and bolts in this case. This is a county of a little more than 100,000 people. I can pretty much guarantee you everybody knows this case...
PINTO: Sure.
CALLEBS: ... inside and out now. Not just the national media, but the local media has done an incredible job keeping these children`s names, their pictures in the headlines. And really, the authorities say it was that information that led to the employees and the patrons at Denny`s knowing exactly who Shasta was when she walked in that restaurant at 2:00 o`clock in the morning.
PINTO: Sean, let`s ask Captain Wolfinger those two questions you just had for him. Captain, did you hear Sean Callebs?
WOLFINGER: I did. I did.
PINTO: Yes. What`s your response?
WOLFINGER: Well, as far as the grand jury goes, that`s strictly a decision that the prosecutor will have to make, and I`m sure they won`t make that final decision until they get the evidence in front of them from the investigators. And I guess I didn`t hear, actually, the second question.
PINTO: Well, I think the change of venue is probably more an issue for the district attorney`s office, but...
WOLFINGER: It really is...
PINTO: Yes, but it seems...
WOLFINGER: It really is. Sean`s right, though. We`ve had a lot of publicity here from day one. As Sean said, the national media and the local media has done just an incredible job here keeping those kids` pictures out there so the public recognized them. And really, they should get some of the credit for the people in Denny`s on Saturday morning recognizing Shasta.
PINTO: What heroes, right?
(CROSSTALK)
PINTO: That`s what we need in all these cases...
WOLFINGER: Absolutely.
PINTO: ... members of the public, if they see something that looks funny, if a kid is with an adult and doesn`t look comfortable, don`t be afraid to go up to that kid and say, Is this person your parent? Who is this person? Are you supposed to be with him? Don`t be shy or afraid to do that. You can stop a crime.
WOLFINGER: Absolutely. And if all else fails, call the police and let us do it.
PINTO: Right.
WOLFINGER: I mean, that`s what we get paid to do, and we would certainly be happy to do that.
PINTO: And you know, we have to train our kids, too, that if -- not just about a stranger, but that a stranger has devious methods. He`ll come up to you and say, Your mom sent me to get you. She`s in the hospital. We have to teach our kids, No, no no. I will not send anyone to get you. Isn`t that right, Captain? Ploys like that are often used?
WOLFINGER: You know -- absolutely. There`s ploys like that. And we need to make sure we have a plan with our children, and they know if there`s a problem, who will come get them.
PINTO: Let`s hear more from Shasta`s big brother, Jesse. Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JESSE GROENE: And they woke me up, actually, over the speaker, and then I groaned (ph) and turned on the TV. And I was, like -- you know, I didn`t think -- I didn`t figure they`d tell me to turn on the TV for nothing bad, you know? So I turned it on, and there`s a little picture of my sister, you know, Shasta Groene found alive. And I was, like, yes. I was, like, But where`s Dylan at, you know? So I was happy, but kind of down at the same time because right then, I knew inside that things probably weren`t very good.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINTO: That`s Shasta and Dylan`s big brother. Nothing he could do from where he was sitting, but, boy, he has strong feelings about what should happen to Duncan.
Let me go to my defense attorneys here. Richard Herman, what defense do you have in this case? The only thing I can imagine is the suggestibility of a child witness. Is that what you would attack here?
RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I mean, that`s their whole case right now. Unless this forensics comes in 100 percent, their entire case is based upon the testimony of an 8-year-old girl. And you know, I mean, on cross-examination, any defense attorney worth his weight in salt will absolutely score points in cross-examining her.
PINTO: But that backfires, doesn`t it, Richard? You beat up a kid in front of the jury, that backfires on you.
HERMAN: I`m not saying beat up. There`s a way to do it -- cool, calm...
PINTO: Right.
HERMAN: ... deliberate. If you yell at the child, forget it.
PINTO: Right.
HERMAN: You`re going to lose all credibility with the jury.
PINTO: But it seems they`ve also insulated the child, Shasta, from this suggestibility because only one person talked to her. The talk was videotaped. And they are -- you know, they are using that, and how are you going to say that that -- that somehow, someone got to her and she made up this story? Very hard to defend that, Richard.
HERMAN: Very hard. But you know, young children are not programmed as well as the other, quote, "rats" that are used in other cases. So you know, it`s going to be very difficult. But Lisa, I got to tell you , this guy has a criminal history dating back to when he`s 17 years old. If the DNA comes in strong...
PINTO: Tell me about it!
HERMAN: ... which Captain Wolfinger says it is, his defense attorney has to run in -- must run in and try to cut a deal to save his life.
PINTO: Boy, this is a tragic tale. More on this after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINTO: I`m Lisa Pinto, in for Nancy Grace tonight. I want to remind you about the case of Evelyn Miller (ph). This adorable 5-year-old disappeared from her home Friday, 2:00 in the morning. No one`s seen her since -- in Iowa. There`s a tip line there, 641-228-1821. Keep your eyes peeled if you are anywhere near Iowa. Her home was near a major highway. She could be anywhere by now. We want to find Evelyn Miller.
But back to my panel for final thoughts about Shasta and Dylan Groene and where we go from here. Dr. Austin (ph), you were talking to me in the break -- we were talking about how to prosecute using Shasta. What about how to counsel her?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Sounds to me like they`re doing a really good job. They`re building trust, and she`s talking in detail. And that`s great. They need to support her, to tell her she didn`t do anything wrong. She`s a good girl. Regardless of what she saw, if she was not able to stop her brother from being hurt, that`s not her fault. She`s a good girl and didn`t do anything wrong. And they need to help her think of herself not as a victim but as someone that something bad happened to, and that she`s fine.
PINTO: Ms. Rodrigues (ph), did you hear Dr. Austin? Sounded like some good advice. Ms. Torres, did you hear Dr. Austin? Ms. Torres?
TORRES: Yes, I did, and that does sound like wonderful advice. And she is a good little girl. And I would just like to thank the whole community of Coeur D`Alene, Idaho. I applaud you for the compassion that you`ve given this family and this little girl.
PINTO: Our heart goes out to you. Thanks for being with us.
Quickly, to my panel, final thoughts. Can you defend this guy, yes or no? Richard Herman?
HERMAN: I personally could not defend this guy. A deal has to be made to save him from the death penalty.
PINTO: From the death penalty. Daniel, didn`t mean to neglect you there. I love everything you say. This guy going to get the death penalty? I think he should, if he`s responsible for these crimes.
HOROWITZ: You know, Lisa, you don`t kill cockroach by cockroach to make things safe. You got to go to the source. This guy was a victim. If you accept that and understand we have to go to the source of these killings, it`s childhood abuse...
PINTO: Oh, Daniel!
HOROWITZ: ... of these people. And Lisa, once you understand that, he was not born evil.
PINTO: I got to cut you off.
HOROWITZ: He was made evil.
PINTO: I want to -- Daniel, I want to talk to you more next time I have a chance. But thanks to all my guests tonight.
But I want you to remember all our talk is meaningless if you are home are not listening, watching and participating in this debate on criminal justice. Thanks so much for being with us tonight.
END
