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CNN LARRY KING LIVE
The Aftermath of Hurricane Dennis; Interview With Bob Woodward
Aired July 11, 2005 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, the latest on the aftermath of Hurricane Dennis, which struck disaster areas in three states. And on a new storm that could be on the way, with us, WABC TV weather forecaster Sam Champion. In Montgomery, Alabama, Michael Brown, director of FEMA, the Federal Emergency Management Agency. Red Cross President Marty Evans. CNN's Anderson Cooper in Pensacola Beach. Also with us, CNN's Rick Sanchez.
And then, the ultimate inside scoop on the FBI source who helped topple Richard Nixon. Pulitzer Prize-winning reporter and author Bob Woodward tells all and takes your calls about his relationship with Mark Felt, the man behind the 30-year Deep Throat mystery. It's all next on LARRY KING LIVE.
Get our aftermath weather report on Dennis, and we'll take some calls on this, too.
Sam Champion, what is the final story on this from your purview?
SAM CHAMPION, WABC-TV WEATHER FORECASTER: Hey, Larry, it's still a big rainmaker, and right now through southern Illinois, the boot heel of Missouri, there is an awful lot of rain going on there.
This storm is going to be known not only for its initial impact damage all along the Gulf Coast, but for the flooding rains through Georgia and for a good part of the Midwest. It's going to be stationary there for a while.
So tonight, we are looking at what was a rather strong storm, may have been less of a storm than Ivan, depending on how you look at it, but it was still a very strong storm, and its impact is going to go on for a few more days, with some flooding rain through the Midwest.
KING: Will it eventually wind up in your bailiwick, in New York?
CHAMPION: The last few have, Larry, and we're watching it now to see. This moisture, tropical moisture is going to be thrown east. I'm not sure how much of it we're going to get. It would be Thursday- ish, if we were going to see much of in the way of rains, but we did from Cindy. We got a big downpour here.
KING: Michael Brown, the head of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, he's also undersecretary of homeland security for emergency preparedness and response. What is the damage?
MICHAEL BROWN, DIRECTOR, FEMA: Well, you know, Larry, I keep hearing reports about Hurricane Dennis being not quite as bad as Hurricane Ivan. And that may be true in terms of the geographical span of it, where it made landfall, but if you're the individual whose home or business has been destroyed, it's just as bad as any other hurricane, and we're out doing our damage estimates right now.
KING: And what are you -- any estimates yet?
BROWN: No estimates yet. I can tell you that last year, based on the four hurricanes in Florida alone, we have already spent upwards of $5 billion. So these can be very expensive storms. And as Sam just said, it continues to have effects throughout the Midwest and the Ohio River valley.
KING: Marty Evans, president of the American Red Cross, is in our New York bureau. Do you work with FEMA at all?
MARTY EVANS, PRESIDENT, AMERICAN RED CROSS: FEMA and the U.S. government actually depend on the Red Cross to take care of the population during times of emergency. We work very closely with FEMA, but our responsibility is to provide sheltering during the evacuation, during the storm, and then after the storm, as we're doing now in Florida and other parts down in that area, we're providing additional shelter, we're gearing up to serve up to 200,000 meals a day, we are doing some damage assessment, providing emergency supplies, hygiene kits, cleanup supplies, mental health counseling and first aid. So that's our role, and we do it in partnership with FEMA and other NGOs.
KING: How bad, Marty, was Dennis?
EVANS: Well, as Mike Brown has just said, we're still doing the assessment. We know that there are people in some communities, Navarre, Saint Marks, for example, who haven't been able to get back into their communities.
Right now, we have 30 shelters open with people actually staying in the shelters. We had 188 open all together. We're feeding extensively, and we will be feeding for as long as it takes the power companies to get power back on. And we'll be providing respite for people. People will be cleaning up in their neighborhoods, and then they'll come to Red Cross shelters for some relief from what's sure to be heat and humidity.
KING: Anderson Cooper of CNN, on the scene in Pensacola Beach, Florida. Pensacola got lucky, didn't they?
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: In some regards, yes, absolutely. I mean, the damage here wasn't as bad as some people had feared. I'm in Pensacola Beach right now, which is part of the barrier island, that -- and all the way going down to the east, to Navarre, which is about 17 miles to the east.
This is really where the storm came ashore. I took a chopper ride down to Navarre earlier today, and the damage there, where the storm really hit hardest, hit -- and hit first is very extensive. I saw cranes on construction sites buckled in half, houses that had been -- just been destroyed. And what's so strange, Larry, is that, you know, one house -- generally the older houses, you know, the roof will be ripped off. The house right next to it, often a newer constructed house, under newer building codes, is maintained intact, hardly looks like anything has hit it. So it can be very capricious, this storm, in terms of who gets the most damage.
KING: Rick Sanchez, you are a veteran of the Florida wars, what's your look back on this one?
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, there's two things that happen. First, during a hurricane, it's a lot of fear, Larry, and after a hurricane goes by, it turns into frustration, a real difficult situation for a lot of the people who are affected by this. A lot of them can't get back in their homes, because they are not being allowed to get back in their homes. There are still power lines on some of the roads, and the officials have roads blocked off. A lot of them don't have electricity. Many of them don't have running water. If they do have running water, they're being told that they have to boil it. And it's very difficult.
In this particular area where Anderson and I are tonight, police have blocked off an area of Pensacola Beach, and they are telling people, if they want to get back in their homes, they have to park their car in a parking lot near the beach, and there they're picked up in a shuttle that the city provides, and that shuttle takes them into their home if they want to go there. Otherwise, they have to walk, and for some of them, it's quite a trek.
So in the end, this part of the storm is the one that's probably the most frustrating for people who have been dealt this blow.
KING: Sam Champion, unlike Ivan, this went through very quickly. Do we know why?
CHAMPION: Well, Larry, I think it had a lot to do with the time of year. Remember, Ivan, a September storm; the water was much warmer there, it was a much bigger storm. You had a little cooler water issue here.
This was very early. This is the most powerful July storm to ever strike the U.S. coastline. Big deal for us. I mean, we're watching something happen that really hasn't happened to quite this strength before. We got a quick named storm. We were up to the D's in July. That was a big deal too.
So we were looking at this storm system move through the Gulf. There's warm water there. That's what feeds them. But the warm water wasn't quite as deep as it would be later in the season, so as it chugged through the Gulf, it was actually bringing up some colder water from underneath it, and that worked to help weaken that storm a little bit, kept it kind of strong and tight. It's something we're going to be watching, and a very good question. But the eyewall was much smaller. This storm was moving much faster. And there's a big difference between a category 3 that lingers for 12 hours and a category 3 that's gone in about six. Big difference in damage. KING: Michael Brown, people who need FEMA, how do they contact them?
BROWN: 800-621-FEMA, that's the quickest and easiest way to do it, Larry, is to call that phone number, 800-621-FEMA.
Now, one of the things that we do in the aftermath of last year's storms, we also started an online application process, which is even faster. So if you have access to the Internet, either at a public library or your home or at your work, you can go on to fema.gov and make that same application right there online. And we have operators all over the country ready to start taking those applications right now.
KING: Who's eligible?
BROWN: Primarily, we take care of folks that are either uninsured or underinsured. And that's for the kind of financial aid that we do. But in terms of the immediate response, we will provide temporary shelter, temporary housing. We've moved in commodities, such as meals ready to eat, ice and water, cots. Those kinds of things to do life-sustaining efforts.
Because as Marty and others have said, there is still a lot of people in shelters, still people who are displaced.
So we take care of their immediate physical needs, and then we start taking care of their financial needs as they kind of get back on the ground and get their feet back on the ground.
But I would encourage anyone, whether you think you're qualified or eligible or not, don't make that decision yourself. Call the 800 number, and our operators will work through the process with you to see if you are eligible.
KING: That's FEMA, f-e-m-a.
We'll take a break and be back with more about Dennis, and then Bob Woodward joins us.
Tomorrow night, we'll catch up on what's going on in that puzzling story of Aruba. Don't go away.
KING: Let's take a call.
Allentown, Pennsylvania. Hello. Allentown, are you there? Good-bye.
Wilmington, Delaware. Hello.
Obviously, the phones are not hooked up.
Sam Champion, what about Emily out in there the ocean somewhere?
CHAMPION: Well, now, Larry, we haven't named her, yet. Now, I mean, you're absolutely right.
KING: I named her.
CHAMPION: Well we have to give her about five miles-per-hour on the winds, yet and it may happen by the time we get the next update tonight.
But right now, she's still cruising along and I just pulled this off the wires: About 30 knots. You could call that about 35 miles- per-hour. We need her to be 39 miles-per-hour before she gets that name officially: Emily.
But Larry, you know, you can do anything you want. Poorly organized is the way it's described. The next 48 hours, moves into waters that are a bit more favorable for development, but one of the things we often see are systems that follow other systems. They're not quite as explosive.
For some reason, there seems to be a calming effect; a kind of a trail of a little bit calmer water and wind for the next storm that moves through.
So, not expected to be an explosive developer. This one looks like it's going to be a slow and steady climber, but a still a storm that we're going to have to watch very carefully, when we name her Emily.
KING: Marty Evans -- and you will, four more miles-an-hour. Marty Evans, do you start thinking about Emily now?
EVANS: Absolutely. We're not only thinking about Emily and what might follow Emily, we're also thinking about the western wildfires in South Dakota and Colorado that we have Red Cross teams, evacuation shelters opened at. So, we're thinking not only about the southeast, but the entire country.
KING: And Anderson Cooper, are you thinking about what might be Emily now. Figuring you'll go to New York and come back for that?
COOPER: You know, I'm not even thinking that far ahead. You know, I'm still -- yes, I can't even think that far ahead.
You know, I feel for the people down here, because they have been though so much last year; so much already, this season. I mean, to have a big-name storm like this hit in July, as Sam Champion said, is just incredible. I don't think many people here are even focused on, you know, whatever this thing may be called, Emily or whatever. It's just -- it's too much to even consider.
KING: Rick Sanchez, what was it like driving around in that car through all of this?
SANCHEZ: It's amazing. It's technology that we've never tried to use for this purpose and you know, we were hoping that by using some band-aids and some cord, we'd be able to string it together and make it work. And in the end, for the most part, Larry, it worked. Some people are saying we made broadcast history, by actually going into a storm and covering the story in a mobile unit, showing the storm while we were driving, which, you know, if you think of it, KING: If you go in your back yard, you get your satellite and you move it around a little bit, you're going to lose your picture and you're not going to be able to see anything.
We were actually moving with this thing moving -- moving at, you know, at 50, 60 miles-an-hour, while being hit with gusts of winds in excess of 100 miles-an-hour and with all that going on, we were able to provide pictures and get to scenes right after it happened; usually before anybody else got there, which oftentimes is important in our business.
KING: Michael Brown, they forecast a lot of hurricanes this year. Are you budgeted for that.
BROWN: Absolutely. We're not only budgeted for that, but as Mary said, we're budgeted for all the other disasters that we're handling right now.
We've already approved fire management assistance grants for more than a dozen wildfires burning in the west -- in the western mountains right now. We're watching Emily, we're watching all of those.
And at the same time that we're preparing to respond to all those disasters, Larry, we're still in the recovery process. I mean, we're still doing recovery operations in Florida and Alabama and all the eastern states.
So, FEMA's business continues way beyond the immediate response. We continue to do recovery operations long after the storms are past. So, we're always busy. President Bush and Congress always make sure we're fully funded, too.
KING: Sam Champion, are all airports up and running now?
CHAMPION: Larry, from what I've heard and again, Anderson and Rick are down there, and I think there was some issue with the Pensacola airport, when last I heard. But from everything else, airports were just affected by rain, as it moved a bit farther north.
So, those major airports are back open and going. There may be some of those smaller airports down in the deep south that still have some issues with clearing debris though.
KING: Anderson, the mayor told us Pensacola would be up and running this morning. Is it?
COOPER: The city, Yes, pretty much is. I mean, it's really this barrier island that we're...
KING: I mean the airport.
COOPER: The airport? You know, I don't know. There was a 6:00 flight leaving out of the airport tonight. I'm not sure if that flight left. Flights tomorrow are scheduled to be leaving.
Also, of course, the Mobile, Alabama, airport is open as well. So, we anticipate sort of a regular schedule of flights out of here and you know, we're keeping our fingers crossed.
KING: Rick, are you done now? Back to Miami?
SANCHEZ: Well, I don't know. I think we're going to be working on a shuttle story piece, possibly tomorrow and we'll see what we can do to try and help some of the people here at the same time.
The biggest frustration is here and -- is the power. People want their power back on and usually what happens, as you know, Larry, being a Floridian for a long time, what they do now is they co-op. They'll get FP&L from Florida, Georgia Power from Georgia. They'll get some of the Alabama crews to come in here and work with Gulf Power and they're coming in here at first thing, tomorrow morning, like at 6:00 or 7:00 a.m. in mass.
You'll see trucks coming all the way down the highway. they'll even get a police escort and I'm being told by officials here that this may be news; that they hope to get this done or at least they're shooting for getting the power main -- the main power back on here -- of course, there'll still be some holes in other places, by the end of the week.
KING: Thank you all very much for outstanding reporting through this whole incredible episode. We'll come back with Bob Woodward, the reporters reporter. The new book is and I have it right here, "The Secret Man: The Story Of Watergate's Deep Throat," with a reporters assessment by Carl Bernstein.
There you see its cover. Bob Woodward's next. Don't go away.
KING: Deep Throat was the ultimate informed source, and Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein had the major story on him. Woodward's new book is "The Secret Man." The Felt revelation revealed in "Vanity Fair" a month or so back. There's a reporter's assessment at the end by Carl Bernstein. I read the book over the weekend. It is a terrific read, a very personal read, a very deep story by a heck of a reporter.
Bob, before -- there is an aftermath to this, played out in the headlines. Is informed sources dead with Judy Miller sitting in jail? What's going to happen?
BOB WOODWARD, WASHINGTON POST: I sure hope not. And our hats have to be off to her. She's standing for a principle, and the principle is not confidentiality or secret sources, the principle is trust. Do you have an arrangement between a reporter and somebody who's on the inside, whether it's of the government, or the FBI or the White House who will tell you what's really going on, and can they trust, when you say, I'm not going to tell anyone, you're not going to get fingered for this? I can recall doing a book on the Supreme Court 25 years ago, having Supreme Court justice who were confidential sources, who would say things like, come in the back door, or don't quote a justice because then everyone will sit around in the conference and say, who's the SOB that talked? So, you need those. And you know, somebody sits in jail, and a lot of potential sources are going to say, gee, you know, am I safe?
KING: Can you honestly say that you, if it ever came to a grand jury thing with Deep Throat, never would have revealed?
WOODWARD: Yes. Katherine Graham, who was the publisher of "The Post," Ben Bradlee, the editor, stood behind us under the kind of denunciations you just don't get from the White House. And even when we made a mistake, Bradlee stood behind us. And I think if they came knocking at his door and said, you know, where are the notes or the identities of sources, you know how Ben talks, he would have, in a very colorful way said, go yourself.
KING: Was it tough for you to write this personal a document? I mean, we learn a lot about you we didn't know.
WOODWARD: Well, it's 33 years of this relationship with this man, who was incredibly helpful, took great risk. At the same time, it's an anguished relationship, simply because he was somebody who was prosecuted, tried, convicted for authorizing FBI burglaries. You know, it's the perfect irony -- and then was pardoned by Ronald Reagan. So there was a period of three or four years where it looked like he was going to go to the slam, maybe up to 10 years. And h0e was deeply worried about that.
KING: But you deal with your own doubts and your -- how you built a friendship with him in the Navy and the own fears that you had. Was that tough for you, because you're not a kind of let-it-out guy?
KING: You're not.
WOODWARD: Maybe I am more than I realized. That was the way to tell the story, and to -- as my old colleague, Carl Bernstein, points out, we had so many other sources. This was a critical source, but this is a case study, you know, you've had sources, where somebody tells you something, you use something. It is, one, other than the human relationship, it is one of the most complex -- between a source and a reporter, particularly when the stakes were as high as they were in this case.
KING: Do you like Mark Felt?
WOODWARD: Yeah, I do. And I think he first acted as a career counselor to me, when I was trying to figure out what to do when I was in the Navy, whether I should go to law school or not. And he told me a wonderful story when he was a young attorney, working for the Federal Trade Commission, early in his career, and they assigned him the case of trying to figure out whether Red Cross toilet paper had an unfair competitive advantage. And he couldn't figure it out, and he told me this, and he said, this was ridiculous, I was trapped. "Go with the action," he said. And don't get trapped in your own equivalent of the toilet paper investigation.
I think that's wonderful advice.
KING: How do you react to some critics who have said, the book, in Woodward fashion, gives you the who, what, where and when, but not the why.
WOODWARD: Boy, I think there's a lot of why in there. And Felt's motives, as clear as I think they can be. Regrettably, he's lost his memory, so we -- I can't have him here to explain it anew and maybe go a little deeper or reflect on it 30 years later. But this is a man who saw widespread law-breaking. The Nixon White House wanted to control the FBI for its own political purposes. He had been passed over as director. He was clearly disappointed, if not deeply disappointed about that. And he was somebody I knew, and I pushed him. I mean, you know how reporters hound people. That's what I was doing, hounding him.
KING: Were you surprised therefore that there were critiques like that?
WOODWARD: No. You know, people have their honest reactions. Sure, you would love to have his perspective on this. Now, that's not available. So many things aren't available. As Tom Brokaw said, we still don't know why Nixon thought he could get away with so many crimes. And I think that's true. Why did Nixon -- you know, what pulses through the Nixon presidency is why.
KING: And we'll never know that.
We'll take a break and come back with more. We'll include phone calls for Bob Woodward. His newest book is "The Secret Man," with a reporter's assessment by Carl Bernstein. It is published by Simon and Schuster. We'll be right back.
KING: We're back with Bob Woodward, author of "The Secret Man: The Story of Watergate's Deep Throat." President Bush said a while back that if there was a leaker in the Judith Miller matter, he will be fired. What if it was Karl Rove?
WOODWARD: You know, I wouldn't jump to any conclusions on that at this point. I think that Rove obviously was talking about this. I have not seen any evidence that he really disclosed the identity of this CIA undercover operative who was married to Joe Wilson, who was the ambassador, former ambassador that they sent on this mission to look for some evidence that maybe Saddam was getting uranium from an African country. So you know, we'll have to let this play itself out.
What's interesting in this "Newsweek," Michael Isikoff had the e- mail that Matt Cooper of "Time" magazine had sent his bureau chief, I guess, in Washington -- this is before the story is published by Bob Novak -- and in the e-mail, Cooper says that he's talked to Rove, and that this is -- what did he -- he called it a "double super secret background source."
KING: You ever heard that before?
WOODWARD: Boy, that's a first. It sounds like Buck Rogers' decoder ring to a certain extent, double super secret background. Which meant, don't disclose. I've got a confidential source here who's giving me some guidance. That happens all the time, not just in Washington, but in journalism.
KING: But the president did say he would fire, if it was connected with this case, whoever it was.
WOODWARD: Well, if it was connected with the illegal part of it. I mean, just talking about her and Joe Wilson, not having the knowledge that -- I think not too many people had the knowledge that she was an undercover operative or had once been one. At the time, she was -- you know, she -- her identity was protected, but she was working in headquarters, as an analyst. So, there's no -- in this case, there's no harm to national security. And her life certainly was not in danger, as best I can tell.
KING: Yeah. But it certainly focuses more attention on your book about the ultimate inside source.
Two questions that people ask the most in connection with the Judith Miller case, is one, she didn't write one word.
WOODWARD: I know.
KING: She's in jail. Robert Novak wrote the words and nothing's happened to him. Explain those dichotomies.
WOODWARD: Well, I suspect, I don't know, but if you look at this, that Novak got his sources to come forward to the prosecutor and say, yes, we told this to Novak, but we did not know she was an undercover person at all, and that Novak has written that he used the word "operative" because that's something he frequently uses to describe any kind of ward-heeler or politician. So in a sense, part of this disclosure might have been an accident, if you accept Novak at his word, and I would unless there's contrary evidence on this.
But the idea of having a kind of dragnet for all reporters who apparently showed up on phone logs or something like that, and, you know, suppose you had heard about this, Larry, and talking to somebody at lunch, and your name was in a phone record and then they called you before the grand jury. What do you do in a case like that?
KING: Are reporters -- and when "Time" magazine turned over the papers, their editor said, "we're not above the law." When it comes down it to, this is what the law said, we comply. Are you above the law?
WOODWARD: No. Clearly, we're not above the law. But frequently, people disobey the law. And when you do so, you have to be willing to accept the consequences. And in this case, the consequences, I guess, are a four-month jail sentence, and Judy Miller's willing to do that, to stand on this principle of trust. You know, I...
KING: You said you would have done it, too?
WOODWARD: I would have done it, too. And in fact, you know, maybe I shouldn't say this, but I will ...
KING: Go ahead.
WOODWARD: ... because it came to mind. If the judge would permit it, I would go serve some of her jail time, because I think the principle is that important, and it should be underscored. It's not a casual idea that we have confidential sources. It is absolutely vital. And I'll bet there are all kinds of reporters out there, if we could divvy up this four-month jail sentence -- I suspect the judge would not permit that, but if he would, I'll be first in line. It's that important to our business.
And this book and Watergate demonstrated, the daily reporting in any newspaper or on CNN illustrates that. And what are you going to do? Are you going to interview all of the public relations people, all of the spokespeople, and that's it? No one else can talk? Imagine, you know, the varnished pablum that would come out.
KING: We do need our Woodwards.
We're going to take a break and come back and go to your phone calls. Bob Woodward offering to serve part of the time for Judith Miller.
We will take your calls. The book is "The Secret Man. It's his 13th book. Don't go away.
KING: The book is "The Secret Man," the author Bob Woodward. I know you're doing a book on the second Bush term. Have you got any info so far on who he's going to appoint to the court?
WOODWARD: No, I don't. I suspect that hasn't been decided. But I...
KING: But it will be in the book?
WOODWARD: I certainly hope so. I think that's going to be a very important decision, and there may be more than one.
What's interesting about that, you can get a lot of bright lawyers, as they have in the White House and the Justice Department, and look at the records of the federal appellate judges. These are the people in the appeals courts just below the Supreme Court and read their opinions. If they've been there five to 10 years, you can pretty much figure out how they might rule on major issues. You can't be absolutely certain, but you can come mighty close. And they are probably going through these records and trying to find judges who have this same philosophy that the president has, and he's endorsed the Scalia and Justice Thomas approach. And then find those appellate judges who have not ruled on the hot-button issues, like abortion and gay rights and so forth.
And I would expect, it's going to be an appeals court judge, and it may be somebody we've never heard of, because we didn't take the time to read all these opinions.
KING: Boca Raton, Florida, as we go to calls for Bob Woodward. Hello.
CALLER: Hello, thank you very much for taking my call, Mr. King. I'd like to ask how anyone could think that Mark Felt is anything other than a coward and a traitor. By Mr. Woodward's admission, here's a man who is number two of the head of the FBI, knew that there were criminals committing illegal acts, and stood by and did nothing, and arrested nobody.
WOODWARD: Oh, no...
CALLER: How could anybody have any respect for that?
KING: Before Bob answers, sir, who does Felt report to?
WOODWARD: He reported to Pat Gray, who was the director who Nixon installed to politicize the FBI, to give Nixon control. It wasn't a matter of arresting people. They were investigating all kinds of people.
I mean, to just answer the caller's question, you have the FBI director summoned to the White House -- this is Pat Gray, Felt's boss -- he is given the contents of Howard Hunt, who is the chief suspect, and went to jail because of the Watergate burglary -- given the contents of Hunt's White House safe and told by the counsel to the president of the United States and John Ehrlichman, Nixon's -- one of his three top aides, make sure this evidence never sees the light of day.
The FBI investigative records were being sent to the White House. There were so many parts of this, where there was a cover-up going on. Mark Felt really couldn't go to anyone who had any authority who wasn't involved in concealing this.
KING: He was between a rock and a hard place. Patrick Gray died the other day and said his biggest mistake was believing and trusting in Richard Nixon.
WOODWARD: Yes. That's right. And I sympathize with his feeling, because they used Pat Gray, but Pat Gray let himself be used.
KING: Albuquerque, New Mexico, for Bob Woodward. The book, "The Secret Man." Hello.
CALLER: Hello, Mr. King. Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein are American heroes. Mark Felt, Deep Throat, American hero. I say that as a retired reporter who started in 1976. It's not -- wasn't about going taking down a president, it was standing up to people in power.
But my question is, Mr. Woodward, what do you think about the spin that is coming out after the revelation that Mark Felt was just another axe-grinder, his family's after a book deal? I mean, that's my question.
WOODWARD: Look, he did something that was really hard. It was contrary to many of his instincts. And his family and the family lawyer decided to disclose this. That's their choice. I've been -- I've visited Mark Felt five years ago. His memory, unfortunately, is gone. He is loved and taken care of by his daughter. We should all be so lucky when we're 91, to have somebody in our family taking care of us like this. So they worked that out. It was a family decision, something I'm not going to second-guess, frankly.
KING: To Newark, Ohio, hello.
CALLER: Yes. Hello, Larry.
CALLER: I'm glad I got through. I have a question for Mr. Woodward.
CALLER: And that is concerning revealing sources, don't you think there's a considerable difference between revealing information concerning illegal activity in the presidency of the White House, concerning Richard Nixon, and outing a CIA agent, by whomever did this, or a group of people who did this, in order to get even with Joe Wilson? And that's my question.
WOODWARD: And it's a good question. And clearly, there is a difference. And as even "The New York Times" has said, the Judy Miller case, she is a reporter for "The New York Times," is not an ideal case, because it does not involve a whistle-blower.
At the same time, the principle is very, very important. And I followed the case very closely. I haven't seen any evidence that -- there have been allegations, but no evidence -- that somebody did this in a malicious way. Joe Wilson, who -- whose wife was outed in her CIA undercover capacity has alleged this, but I'm not sure it wasn't someone of an accident, where somebody passed on information about her role, and Bob Novak used the word "operative," which means undercover, and that may explain it all.
Now, this case has gone on for two years, and we haven't really seen any evidence. We've just seen a prosecutor who is just chasing every reporter possible, to see who might know, even somebody who didn't write a story about this.
KING: We'll take a break and be back with more with Bob Woodward of "The Washington Post," the Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist. His newest, "The Secret Man: The Story of Watergate's Deep Throat," with a reporter's assessment by Carl Bernstein. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD NIXON, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I had no prior knowledge of the Watergate break-in. I neither took part in it, nor knew about any of the subsequent cover-up activities.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: We're back with Bob Woodward. Ottumwa, Iowa, hello.
CALLER: Yes, I was just wondering. And he just answered that question.
KING: All right, you have no question then?
CALLER: I was just -- yeah, but I was wondering why Karl Rove and Bob Novak don't have to take the blame, and she has to go to jail for something that they are just playing on words in order to get out of it?
WOODWARD: Well, I think that's part of the problem in all of this, and it seems like the wrong person is paying some sort of price here. And I really hope, whatever happens in all of this, that the special prosecutor Fitzgerald feels some -- he's not required by law, but feels some obligation to explain what happened and what he found out. If in the end, he brings no charges or just kind of says, well, I'm not going to indict anyone, he's done what is required and then we're going to be -- to borrow a phrase, left twisting slowly in the wind, with no explanation about what the hell this was all about.
KING: A public servant might owe us that. Mesa, Arizona. Hello.
CALLER: Hi. I enjoyed the book immensely. I read it this week. My question is, if Hoover was still in, would Mark Felt be a Deep Throat? And if he were, would he tell him?
WOODWARD: Yeah, that's a great question. One of the accidents in all of this is that J. Edgar Hoover, after 48 years of being director of the FBI, died in May of '72, just six weeks before the Watergate burglary. And I think if Hoover had still been there, FBI reports would not have gone to the White House. The efforts to cover up things and give the FBI director files from Howard Hunt's safe would not have occurred.
Or perhaps they would. I mean, people allege that Hoover always had information about presidents, and directly or indirectly blackmailed them. But Watergate would have been different if Hoover was around. And Felt was a Hoover loyalist, and part of the angst in all of this for Mark Felt was the thing -- I mean, just simple things; for instance, very junior White House aides would call Mark Felt at home and say, we need this, we want this information. And Felt was offended that they were using the FBI kind of as part of the political apparatus, and that all of these kids were calling him up at night and saying -- demanding immediate action.
KING: Sacramento, hello.
CALLER: Good evening, gentlemen.
CALLER: Mr. Woodward, had you planned to disclose the identity of Mr. Felt after his death? And if so, are the ethics of that any different from revealing a source who is alive? And my other question is, did you have parts of this book written before Mr. Felt came forward?
WOODWARD: OK, good questions. First of all, I have always said, particularly in the case of this source, that his identity should be disclosed just for the purposes of history, and I think after someone is gone, the record should be cleared. And I think I've made that point. I had a couple of people object to it who were not sources. I've never had an active source saying, by the way, I want the agreement of confidentiality to extend beyond my death. I've -- in hundreds of cases, I have never had anyone suggest that.
I did three years ago, do a draft of this book, to have, at the urging of my wife, Elsa, and Ben Bradlee, the former editor of "The Post" said, get the story down. Suppose something happened to me. At least someone would have a text available.
KING: We'll be back with our remaining moments with Bob Woodward, and more of your phone calls right after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HAL HOLBROOK, ACTOR: Follow the money.
ROBERT REDFORD, ACTOR: What do you mean?
HOLBROOK: I can't tell you that.
REDFORD: But you could tell me?
HOLBROOK: No. I have to do this my way. You tell me what you know and I'll confirm. I'll keep you in the right direction, if I can, but that's all. Just follow the money.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: That line was written by William Goldman, right? It was not said to you, right?
WOODWARD: As best I can tell, though the concept was there. But those literal words, the slogan, "follow the money," was a screenwriter's way of summarizing what occurred.
KING: A great screenwriter. William Goldman.
KING: Tyler, Texas, hello.
CALLER: Mr. Woodward, how do you feel about the movie "All the President's Men," and particularly about Robert Redford's portrayal of you? And were you and Carl Bernstein consultants on the screenwriting? And what role did you have? And do you ever watch the movie now?
WOODWARD: I haven't seen it for decades. You have no idea the number of women I've disappointed over the course of my life. And it is a wonderful movie about journalism, because it shows, just as that scene did, you have to extract the information. You never get it delivered completely. You have to put pieces together. You live with a certain amount of doubt. You go home with a lump in your stomach. Anyone who is a journalist who's seen the movie, I think has said, yeah, that really has the feel of what it's like to report.
KING: And they rebuilt the whole "Washington Post" newsroom?
WOODWARD: They did, on a sound stage, out in Los Angeles.
KING: And were you technical advisers?
WOODWARD: They spent a lot of time, I just a couple of weeks ago spent a morning with Redford, talking about this book, and whether there's a movie in it, which there may well be.
KING: There might be.
WOODWARD: And about Watergate, and how -- it was interesting -- he told the story of how he showed "All the President's Men" just recently to his grandchildren, and it just -- they kind of went, wow, you did that, that happened in America? And he was quite surprised that the movie had -- still had legs.
KING: Did Nixon -- is it true that Nixon sent Felt a bottle of champagne after Reagan pardoned Felt?
WOODWARD: Yes, saying justice was done. And Nixon testified at Felt's trial. There are tapes that show that Bob Haldeman told Nixon that one of our sources was Mark Felt, but then Haldeman said, Mark Felt knows so much, we can't finger him, because he'll then go public. The implication being then the house would come down even sooner.
KING: Only got 30 or 40 seconds. Fullerton, California, quickly.
CALLER: Hi, Larry. Hi, Bob.
CALLER: I'm so excited to talk to you. I read your book today. It was fabulous, very interesting. My question is, will you be doing any personal book signing appearances, because that would be great?
KING: Are you doing a tour at all?
WOODWARD: Probably not. I'll tell you, I'm spending most of my time on the second Bush administration, trying to do a book about the things that are going on, the aftermath of the Iraq war, the effort to export democracy, what may happen with the Supreme Court or the economy.
KING: You got a title yet?
WOODWARD: No. I don't. Any ideas?
KING: You always come up with great titles, but if I have one, I'll call you.
WOODWARD: Simon and Schuster comes up with these titles.
KING: Thanks, Bob.
WOODWARD: They take care of it. Thanks.
KING: "The Secret Man: The Story of Watergate's Deep Throat."
And tomorrow night, we'll look at that ongoing story in Aruba, which gets more complicated all the time.
Aaron Brown will host NEWSNIGHT. Aaron, I got to tell you the truth, when this book came out and I saw it in the window, I said, it's about Aaron!
AARON BROWN, HOST, NEWSNIGHT: Why?
KING: Because you've delved into so many archives and waded your way through so many news stories, come up with so many secrets unknown by others! You are the finder of secrets. You are our main man.
BROWN: Thank you. It's a living. Thank you, Mr. King. Thank you.
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