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Nancy Grace

Nancy Grace for July 11, 2005, CNNHN

Aired July 11, 2005 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news out of Queen Creek, Arizona. Like an eerie echo of the Coeur d`Alene story of Shasta and Dylan Groene, tonight, a 3-year-old little girl, an 18-month-old toddler gone, gone from the home where their grandparents and uncle have been found murdered.
And also tonight in Idaho, after days and days of waiting, in the last 24 hours, DNA confirms little 9-year-old Dylan Groene is dead. Dylan`s remains found last week at a Montana campsite after the miraculous rescue of his 8-year-old sister, Shasta, from a convicted sex offender, Joseph Edward Duncan III.

And bind, torture, kill. The confessed BTK killer makes his first public apology for ten brutal murders. In an exclusive interview, Dennis Rader blames not himself -- oh, no -- but the demon than got inside him.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. And I want to thank you for being with us tonight.

In an exclusive interview, confessed serial killer known as the BTK killer, Dennis Rader, says he`s sorry. He`s sorry for the brutal torture killings of ten Wichita victims that spanned nearly two decades. But Rader blames a so-called demon he says got inside of him at a very early age. OK.

And tonight, I`m sorry to report to you that a little body that was found in the Montana hills is 9-year-old Dylan Groene. Dylan and his sister, Shasta, went missing early about two months ago, at the beginning of the month. Their mom, her boyfriend, their older brother, all bludgeoned to death in the family home in there Coeur d`Alene. Shasta, the sole survivor.

But first, breaking news tonight. Two children missing from the home where their grandparents and uncle have been discovered dead. An Amber Alert in effect tonight for 18-month-old Brian Cervantes, his 3- year-old little sister, Jennifer.

Tonight, in Philadelphia, defense attorney Joe Lawless with us; in San Francisco, defense attorney Daniel Horowitz; here in New York, psychotherapist Dr. Robi Ludwig; and in Phoenix, Arizona, "East Valley Tribune" reporter Mike Branom.

Let`s go straight to the reporter. Mike, explain to me how these kids went missing, the family wiped out.

MIKE BRANOM, "EAST VALLEY TRIBUNE" REPORTER: It began late last night, about 10:30, two 911 hang-up calls. Maricopa County sheriff deputies arrive on the scene. They look inside. There`s three dead bodies, one on the couch, two on the living room floor.

Unfortunately, they have no idea what`s gone on. They just have victims. About 1:30 in the morning, the mother comes home. That would be the daughter of the two older victims and the brother of the...

GRACE: Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait. Let me get this family tree straight.

BRANOM: Sorry.

GRACE: OK. Who is found dead in the home?

BRANOM: We have two grandparents of the missing children.

GRACE: OK.

BRANOM: And their uncle, who is actually young. He`s, I believe, 17.

GRACE: OK. Let me ask you something, is this the maternal grandparents and the maternal uncle?

BRANOM: Yes, they are.

GRACE: OK. I`m sorry. Go ahead.

BRANOM: Yes. So in the course of their detectives` investigation, they find out that there are two missing children. And they look for possible suspects, and they determine that this woman`s ex-boyfriend is -- has made threats before. And he could be...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: OK. Is this the biological father of the children?

BRANOM: This is. This is Rodrigo Zavala Cervantes. He`s 34 years old, and he does have a violent past.

GRACE: OK, Rodrigo Cervantes, 34 years old, did you say?

BRANOM: Thirty-four, Rodrigo Zavala Cervantes.

GRACE: OK. What were the conditions of the bodies? Were they shot? Were they all in one room? Were they bound? What?

BRANOM: All we know is that they died of gunshot wounds. Authorities have refused to release much information beyond that.

GRACE: Died of gunshot wounds, the maternal grandmother, the maternal grandfather, and the uncle of the mother. Now, was the biological father ever married to the mother?

BRANOM: No, he was not.

GRACE: OK. You say there is an Amber Alert. What can you tell me about that?

BRANOM: Two missing children. We`ve got 18-month-old Brian, three-and-a-year-old Jennifer, no trace of them. They were last seen last night when the mother left for the birthday party, left her children in the care of her parents. And since then, absolutely nothing.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The mother gave information that the father of the children, Rodrigo Cervantes Zavala, may have the children. He has allegedly made threats to the family about two months ago. We`re unsure whether the threats were made to her, her parents, or the children.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We`re showing you on the screen right now the number for the tip line regarding these two little children. One is just 3 years old. Take a look at this little girl, Jennifer Cervantes, black hair, just 3 feet, 4 inches tall. Jennifer last seen wearing a pink t-shirt with a B -- as in brother -- and jeans with flowers on them. Take a look at this little girl.

Also missing, her brother, just a toddler, just a toddler at 18- months-old. Bryan Cervantes. Take a look, 2 feet, 5 inches, wearing an orange t-shirt with an airplane on it and blue shorts. The tip line number -- thank you, Renee -- 602-876-1011.

Now, Mike Branom, a lot of people are speculating that there`s a possibility these two children just wandered off. OK, you know what? B.S. You`ve got three dead bodies in the house. These kids did not just wander off. I`ll go out on a limb tonight, Mike.

What is the speculation there regarding the children?

BRANOM: Well, the authorities believe, and they`re looking very hard at -- they want to know where Rodrigo is. That`s what it basically boils down to. The amber alert also included a description of the pickup truck, the Ford F-150 he drove.

GRACE: Let`s see, a 1998 white Ford F-150, Arizona license plate. Listen to this: 866-NMZ. Or a `93 Buick with Arizona license plate 709-SDW. Take a look at this guy.

Very quickly to Joe Lawless. Joe, I don`t want to jump the gun. This guy is not a person of suspicion. He`s not named as a suspect or a target. But you`ve got missing children, biologically related, and prior threats -- Joe?

JOE LAWLESS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, I`ll jump the gun. The Maricopa County police are referring to him as an "investigative lead." He`s a suspect.

If he`s out there right now, if he`s anywhere in Arizona, he`s got to be aware of the press coverage. He`s got to know he`s on TV. He`s got to know he`s on radio. All he has to do is pick up the phone and call the police. If he doesn`t -- I hate to fly in the face of the presumption of innocence -- but if he doesn`t, there is a reason that he`s not.

GRACE: Question, Mike Branom -- of course I agree with Joe on that -- where was the mother all this time?

BRANOM: We were told she was attending a birthday party with her current boyfriend. And she got home about 1:30, 2:00 in the morning.

GRACE: OK, wait, whoa, whoa, wait a minute. The baby is 18- months-old, and she`s got a new boyfriend?

BRANOM: Yes, that`s what we`re told. That is...

GRACE: OK, birthday party `til 2:00 a.m.? Did I just hear that?

BRANOM: That`s correct.

GRACE: OK, so Mom, we can say, had an alibi.

Very quickly to Dr. Robi Ludwig. Doctor, I`ve been asked all over the country, are there more children going missing or are we just hearing about it more? Especially after Shasta and Dylan Groene.

DR. ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Yes, I think we`re becoming more aware of it. Because clearly this is a problem, and children are a very vulnerable population because they are powerless. And they are completely dependent on the adults who take care of them, and in some cases, these adults are not capable and dangerous.

GRACE: Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SGT. KIP RUSTENBURG, MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: With a crime like this, we`re always concerned. It`s very time-critical. That`s why we`re doing everything. And we appreciate the media`s help to get the information out there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: To Mike Branom with the "East Valley Tribune." Mike, you told me that the family was shot in the home. Can you tell me the type of weapon?

BRANOM: Unfortunately, they have not released that information.

GRACE: And we don`t know whether there was any binding, we don`t know if there was any robbery, nothing else?

BRANOM: I asked this morning specifically, what was the condition of the home? And they refused to comment.

GRACE: Daniel Horowitz, what should authorities be doing right now, tonight, this minute?

DANIEL HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, they should be looking for where Rodrigo, assuming he has the kids, is getting help caring for them. Most men, particularly those who have just committed a murder, are not capable of running and taking care of a 3-year-old and an 18- month child. So he`s going to be looking for family, friends, somewhere to leave this kid.

GRACE: You know, Dan, didn`t you say the same thing when the Groene kids went missing. You said, "How can you control two kids, you know, on the run?"

HOROWITZ: No. What I said about the Groene kids is that they`re still alive and we should be looking. I was unfortunately just partially right.

GRACE: You did. You did. But very quickly, Daniel Horowitz, on the border, if this guy is headed toward Mexico with these kids, what will Mexican authorities actually do to help us?

HOROWITZ: You know, Nancy, they`re not very good about it.

GRACE: I mean, my stars! Look at Aruba, for -- I mean, what about Mexico? Can we get anything out of these...

HOROWITZ: No, Nancy. We`re not good -- we really don`t have a good relationship, in terms of Mexico shipping people back. If somebody`s facing death penalty charges, we only get them back if we agree not to impose the death penalty.

And rarely do we even get people extradited back to the United States. It`s as if Mexico is not right on our border shipping people back and forth all the time.

GRACE: OK. To Mike Branom with the "East Valley Tribune," thank you very much for bringing us up-to-date.

One last time, Rosie (ph), could you show me the picture of these children? Brian Cervantes, 18-months-old, a toddler missing from his home, his sister, Jennifer Cervantes, 3-years-old. The tip line number: 602-876-1011. Everybody, please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUSTENBURG: Unified command has learned the results of the DNA testing that was done on the human remains found in Montana last week. According to the FBI lab in Quantico, Virginia, remains have been positively identified as Dylan Groene.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: In the last 24 hours, it has been confirmed through DNA that remains found in a remote camping area were those of little Dylan. So many of us have hoped, had prayed that Dylan and Shasta would be found alive. Some of our prayer were answered. Shasta was miraculously recovered. From what we know tonight, Shasta and Dylan been held by a convicted sex offender.

I`m going to go straight out to KGA News Radio director Dan Mitchinson. Dan, what can you tell us about the status of the case tonight?

DAN MITCHINSON, KGA NEWS RADIO DIRECTOR: Well, they held a very short, a very brief press conference yesterday, as you just heard there, with Captain Ben Wolfinger. They did announce that they did find the remains. Those remains were identified to belong to Dylan Groene. And apart from that, they`re being very tight-lipped out of respect for the family.

GRACE: I want to go to Darlene Torres. Mrs. Torres is the grandmother of Dylan and Shasta. Thank you for being with us. I`m happy you got Shasta back. But I`m so sorry about Dylan. And not only that, Ms. Torres, what this boy lived through, according to his sister before his death.

Thank you for being with us.

DARLENE TORRES, GRANDMOTHER OF DYLAN AND SHASTA GROENE: Thank you.

GRACE: Ma`am, I understand that Shasta spent the night with you last night?

TORRES: Yes, she did. The last couple nights, pretty much.

GRACE: I know there`s no way you can explain this easily, but how is she doing tonight? Can she sleep through the night? Did she speak of her brother?

TORRES: Yes, she did. No, she speaks of her family like they`re still with us. She`ll speak like it`s the present. She knows they`re not, but she was playing croquet last night and watching movies with two of her cousins, and just enjoying herself, laughing. It was good to see her.

GRACE: When people talk to her, do they bring up her mother, or Dylan, or her other brother that was killed, Slade?

TORRES: No, no, not at all. We don`t. If she wants to talk about it, we listen. We don`t ask her questions at this time. We just listen and love her.

GRACE: Ms. Torres that is so wise. Crime victims, normally, if they want to talk about it, just like you said, they`ll bring it up.

Very quickly, to Dan Mitchinson. Dan, why the delay in telling us that this was Dylan? They had to have known by dental records before they got the proof back in DNA?

MITCHINSON: I think that`s a question you`re going to have to talk to the investigators about, but I think they wanted to be 100 percent sure, Nancy.

GRACE: Right.

MITCHINSON: Everybody knew that this was probably going to be what we found out, but they had hoped to find out the results from Quantico on Friday. It took a little bit longer than they expected, which is why we just found out yesterday.

GRACE: You know what? You may be right.

I`m going to go to the county attorney joining us tonight. Bill Douglas is with us.

Sir, I know you don`t want to jeopardize the case. So just stop me if I`m getting too close to a nerve. Sir, what will the formal charges be? Has your office decided yet?

BILL DOUGLAS, PROSECUTOR IN GROENE CASE: Nancy, first of all, I want to express our condolences of the Kootenai County prosecuting attorney`s office to Darlene Torres, and her family, and the Groene family, and the McKenzies for what is really a frightful, horrifying discovery.

And first of all, we just want to also offer our support. And we`ll continue to offer our support to every member of that family.

Tomorrow, it is my expectation that we will present to a magistrate judge here in county three counts alleging first-degree murder against Duncan for the deaths of Brenda Groene, Slade Groene, and Mark McKenzie. We plan to do that about midday Pacific Standard Time.

GRACE: Everyone, that is breaking news that we are bringing you tonight, an announcement by the county attorney, that`s the prosecutor there, Bill Douglas, that they are presenting three murder charges for Shasta`s mother, the boyfriend of the mother, and her 13-year-old brother, Slade.

Now, Bill Douglas, in addition to that breaking news, there is somebody missing. It`s Dylan. Is he not included because he`s in a different jurisdiction?

DOUGLAS: That is correct, Nancy. It appears, you know, that that is a death that has occurred beyond the county line and certainly indeed beyond the state line. And that would be beyond the jurisdiction of this office.

GRACE: What jurisdiction is it?

DOUGLAS: The matter is still under investigation. It appears that that maybe under the jurisdiction of whatever county prosecutor presides over that county.

GRACE: There in Montana?

DOUGLAS: That is correct.

GRACE: Now, does Montana have the death penalty?

DOUGLAS: I cannot tell you. I cannot tell you, Nancy.

GRACE: But they certainly do in Idaho.

DOUGLAS: Yes, ma`am.

GRACE: Very quickly, I want to go back to -- Bill, please don`t leave us. Everybody, with us, the county attorney, Bill Douglas, who has told us that tomorrow he expects formal charges for three counts of murder against Joseph Duncan III.

Here`s a shot of Joseph Duncan III. And I want to go quickly back to our reporter, Dan Mitchinson.

Renee, if you could keep rolling on this guy.

Dan, I`ve got in front of me a certified copy of the bond hearing on this guy, Duncan. And in it -- and it went down in April, April 5th. April 5th, all right? Dylan and Shasta were taken May 16th. This is about 35 days before these two children were ripped out of their home, we believe, allegedly, raped repeatedly, and Dylan murdered, along with the rest of the family, all right?

And this judge -- Rosie (ph), what did I figure out this judge`s name is? This judge, Judge Thomas Schroeder -- spelled Schroeder, pronounced Schrader -- now, we tried to contact him, everybody, who granted this bond.

Look at this little girl walking through the grocery store. Dr. Robi Ludwig, I`m going to come back to you in a moment. Look how she`s walking along like this, looking around, scared to death. That is Shasta, everybody, with Joseph Duncan.

Now, back to this Judge Schroeder. He is an elected judge. He has run unopposed several times. Nobody bothers to run against him. We tried to call him. Guess what? He`s out until the 19th. Think he could pick up the phone? No, he did not. I guess not.

I want to go back to you, Dan, on this story. Why did this guy get bond? Not just a bond, a $15,000 bond, a 10-percent bond. He got out on $1,500, Dan. He was a sex offender, a convicted sex offender at the time he went before Judge Schroeder, Dan.

MITCHINSON: That`s the question everybody`s asking, Nancy. We have several talk shows here, and that`s the number-one question that we get from listeners. How can this guy have been let out on essentially what was $1,500 cash?

GRACE: You know, I`m going to throw that now -- everybody, the district attorney, the county attorney that`s with us tonight, he was most likely not there at the time of the bond hearing. It`s a totally different process.

But what I don`t understand, Bill, is why whoever was presenting this -- and actually I have the name of the prosecutor presenting it -- why didn`t he give the judge this guy`s rap sheet?

DOUGLAS: Well, Nancy, don`t know. That was in Minnesota. I`m in Idaho.

GRACE: OK.

DOUGLAS: I can`t speak to the actions of another prosecutor and certainly not to the actions of another judge located in another state.

GRACE: Quick break, everybody. With me, the county attorney, as well as Shasta`s grandmother. We`ll all be right back on this story.

Why was a convicted sex offender walking around free? Why did the judge let him go? Why did he have to let him go, and now Dylan is dead?

Let`s quickly go to "Trial Tracking." Tomorrow, a make-or-break day in the disappearance of Alabama honor student Natalee Holloway. Prosecutors back to court tomorrow morning to beg, to appeal the release of those two Kalpoe brothers last seen with 18-year-old Natalee.

Joran Van Der Sloot, the only suspect left behind bars tonight, also in court tomorrow. Why? He wants to be released. And tonight, rumors are swirling that new evidence for the state will be released tomorrow. Repeat: Evidence for the state. Is there a break in the case? Tomorrow could be the last hope for Natalee and her family. We go live to Aruba for the story tomorrow night.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Eight- and nine-year-old Shasta and Dylan Groene taken out of their home. Can you even imagine? Their family wiped out. Dylan now determined to be dead. Shasta living a nightmare the rest of her life. She had been on the run with a sex offender this whole time.

Very quickly to Shasta`s grandmother. Darlene Torres, you know by now, of course, that the alleged perpetrator was blogging, writing his diary online about his inner torment. Did you hear about that?

TORRES: I`ve seen that. I heard that, yes.

GRACE: He forgot to mention he`s a convicted sex offender. Nobody did anything about it.

TORRES: No. And from what I`ve seen, they had meetings over there with families and people that were trying to get him off the street over there.

GRACE: Well, I`ve got to tell you something.

TORRES: It just doesn`t make any sense.

GRACE: I`m going to be right back with Shasta`s grandmother, but I pulled out the police report from before. He actually went to a playground with a video camera and tried to molest little boys, and made bond.

Everybody, we`ll be right back.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JESSE GROENE, SHASTA AND DYLAN`S BROTHER: It`s not like somebody else murdered my family and then he just so happened to come by and there was two little kids just chilling there and he just picked them up, you know? This guy has history of tying people up. He has history of beating people. And that`s exactly what happened to my family. So you know, I know it was this guy. And plus, my little sister said she saw him there, and he was the only guy. So I have no doubt that he`s the one that murdered my family. If they don`t give Duncan the death penalty, I`m going to.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That is the older brother of Shasta Groene. As you know, in the last 24 hours, DNA tests have confirmed that remains found at a distant camp are those of little Dylan, that we all hoped and prayed would be found alive.

Shasta has been staying with her grandmother. Her grandmother is with us tonight. I want to go straight to Darlene Torres. Ms. Torres, again, thank you for being with us. What has Shasta said, if anything, about this ordeal? Can she sleep through the night? Is she having nightmares?

DARLENE TORRES, SHASTA AND DYLAN`S GRANDMOTHER: Well, she had two little girls to sleep with last night. Now, normally, she`s with her daddy. Last night was the first night she spent the night. And she seemed to sleep well. Of course, she had two cousins was sleeping with her, so -- I didn`t see her wake up, and I was on the couch right above them. So she seemed to sleep pretty good last night.

GRACE: You said that she speaks of Dylan in the present tense?

TORRES: She speaks of him like -- like they`re -- she just talks about him like they`re here. She don`t say, He was, or something like that. You know, she`ll say, Dylan liked this or, you know, Dylan really liked that. Or she`ll say her mama cooked a soup that made her sneeze because it had cayenne pepper in it, you know? She don`t say, My mama used to, or anything yet, you know?

GRACE: Do you think...

TORRES: But she knows they`re not here.

GRACE: Yes. How do you know? Does she know that Dylan is dead?

TORRES: Oh, yes. Yes. She knows.

GRACE: How did you break that to her?

TORRES: I`m not sure how that all come about. We kind of leave that personal stuff with her daddy.

GRACE: Yes.

TORRES: We just follow -- we just love her and, you know, try to help her as much as we can.

GRACE: Darlene, I know...

TORRES: If she wants to...

GRACE: I know you`re not asking her questions because you don`t want to upset her. And the psychologist here on the set is shaking her head, Yes, yes, that`s the right thing to do. But do you think she witnessed the murder of her little brother?

TORRES: We`re not -- I`m not really too sure yet. I think they do know what had happened, but they haven`t released all of that yet.

GRACE: I want to back to Bill Douglas, county attorney in that jurisdiction. That is the prosecutor in this case. Now, Bill, I was railing against this judge, Judge Thomas Schroeder (ph). But I want to point out to everybody Schroeder is in Minnesota. The attorney taking this to trial, Bill Douglas, is there in Coeur D`Alene, Idaho. Dylan`s remains, little Dylan`s remains, were found in a different jurisdiction.

Now, I want to go back to you. Bill, I`m stunned at this. Dusty (ph), if you could show this to the viewers? I`ve got the certified copy of the bond hearing right here. And the judge -- somebody says, he`s a sex offender. He`s a sex offender. And the judge still gives this guy a bond. Now, he leaves -- he leaves Minnesota and comes to your town and allegedly takes Dylan and Shasta. Now, how is it -- explain to me how registered -- there`s a shot of the guy in question. Bill, how is it he was not registered?

BILL DOUGLAS, PROSECUTOR IN GROENE CASE: Well, Nancy, you know, first of all, I cannot comment on the actions or decisions of a judge in another jurisdiction.

GRACE: OK.

DOUGLAS: You know, I think it`d be unfair for me to do that. But we have -- we do have a sex offender registry here in the state of Idaho.

GRACE: Does it cross state borders?

DOUGLAS: It does not. Our sex offender registry requires registration within five days...

GRACE: Well, you know what? All you had to do was say no, Bill, because apparently, that`s the same way it is in Minnesota. You can`t go on line, I guess, or find out. This guy crossed state lines and came to your town and allegedly took Dylan and Shasta.

I want to quickly ask Dr. Robi Ludwig -- you are seeing video -- could you tee that back up, Rosie (ph) and Renee (ph) -- of Shasta walking around, like, a 7-Eleven store. I don`t know what everybody in Coeur D`Alene was doing. I`m in New York, I knew what Dylan and Shasta looked like. She was 10 miles from her home in the 7-Eleven. Thank God the people at Denny`s called her in. Did you see her body language?

ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Yes. It`s very interesting that she`s holding herself, like she`s comforting herself. And she`s also looking up, so you almost wonder if she`s looking for some type of cue, so that she knows not to go too far. I mean, her survival instincts are absolutely incredible. And many people will ask, Well, why didn`t she run away? But very often, these children are almost brainwashed and so frightened that they listen and do what they`re told in order to survive.

GRACE: Very quickly, back to Bill Douglas, the prosecuting attorney there, Bill, you have informed us tonight for the first time that the formal charges, you think will come down tomorrow include three counts of murder for Shasta`s mom, her older brother, Slade, and the mom`s boyfriend. Are there going to be any other charges, such as aggravating circumstances, that could lead to the death penalty?

DOUGLAS: Well, Nancy, we will lay before the judge the facts which we will believe establish probable cause that this defendant committed first degree murder of these three victims. We will most likely allege that -- complain in the alternative. In other words, we will allege both premeditation and a felony murder that is in the course of a kidnapping, which we feel that -- even though those three victims, of course, were not able to leave the premises of the scene, we feel that that may make out facts for a kidnapping.

GRACE: Well, wouldn`t mass murder be an aggravating circumstance to seek the death penalty? Three bodies, mass murder.

DOUGLAS: Yes, the prosecutor -- the law of the state of Idaho does not require us to list the aggravating factors...

GRACE: Oh, gotcha.

DOUGLAS: ... at this stage in the proceedings.

GRACE: Interesting.

DOUGLAS: Simply -- we simply need to allege that it`s first degree murder and...

GRACE: Gotcha. I want to point out something else, Joe Lawless. I wish you had this. I`m going to send you this. It`s a certified copy of his bond hearing. All of this could have been avoided -- Shasta mistreatment, her abduction -- God knows what happened to her -- Dylan`s death, if this judge, Judge Thomas Schroeder -- he`s elected, everybody. He`s out of the office until the 19th, so he can`t take a call and explain why he gave this guy a bond.

But Joe, listen to this. The defense attorney -- his name is Mr. Dennis Fisher (ph). They`re in Fargo. And he tells the judge, this guy, Duncan, has not committed any kind of violations of any kind since he`s been in Fargo. This is the first that has come to anybody`s attention. He is student at, let`s see, NDSU, studying computer science. He works two jobs. Listen, hasn`t done anything, for Pete`s sake!

JOE LAWLESS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, I`m going assume that this guy didn`t have a criminal record in front of him because if he made that kind of representation to judge...

GRACE: Wait, wait, wait! Hold on, dear! He is, of course, a registered sex offender.

LAWLESS: Ah! Well, then you have to...

GRACE: He says that, as if that doesn`t really mean anything.

LAWLESS: Then you have to ask yourself what this judge was thinking because even if you believe everything else the defense lawyer said -- and I`ll assume that`s what the defense lawyer thought -- once that judge heard "registered sex offender," if a light didn`t go on and that judge didn`t look farther, then it makes you wonder why there`s such a thing as judicial immunity.

GRACE: OK. Wait a minute, Joe. Very quickly, Daniel Horowitz, I`ve been reading this guy`s, Jesse Duncan III, blog, where he goes on line and he talks about himself and his feelings and his demons. This guy was getting a degree in computer science. He had a job. And he blogs on and on and on about the "fifth nail." OK, I had to look that up. It`s some mysterious nail that was allegedly not used in the crucifixion of Christ. And he`s somehow comparing himself to Christ. Is he setting up an insanity defense? He must think we`re crazy!

DANIEL HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, I actually think that he is insane. Now, that doesn`t mean he should be excused for his crimes. We don`t excuse all insanity. But this guy obviously presented to Judge Schroeder like a fairly normal sex offender, which means that probably by these statutes and the rules of that court, he got the standard bail. If this judge had known about this blog, I`m sure the judge would have kept him and given him a psych referral.

GRACE: Hey, hey!

HOROWITZ: But how can you blame the judge...

GRACE: They told this judge...

HOROWITZ: ... for doing what he should have done?

GRACE: They told this judge -- repeat, Judge Thomas Schroeder -- that he was a sex offender. Very quickly, Robi. Running out of time.

LUDWIG: This guy knows the difference between right and wrong. He knows his behavior is going to disappoint his mother. There is no indication that he is insane. There`s not even any indication that he`s hearing voices. He just describes his id impulse, his primitive impulse, as demons. And he can`t stop himself.

GRACE: And to top it all off, he compares himself to Christ. We`ll all be right back. Please stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CAPT. BEN WOLFINGER, KOOTENAI COUNTY SHERIFF`S DEPARTMENT: Obviously (INAUDIBLE) that seven weeks ago, we didn`t have all the facts that we have now. Based on the facts and the evidence the investigators have, they`ve determined that, based on what they have right now, that Joseph Duncan is the only person involved. The one question that is being asked over and over is, What is the connection between Mr. Duncan and the Groenes or Mark McKenzie? And I haven`t been made aware of any connection with that family, at this point.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DENNIS RADER, CONFESSED BTK SERIAL KILLER: You know, I went ahead and stripped her. And probably went ahead and -- I`m not sure if I tied her up at that point in time. But anyway, she was nude. I put her on a blanket, went through her purse, some personal items in the house, figured out how I would get her out of there, eventually moved her to the trunk of the car and took some pictures of her. She was already dead, so I took pictures of her in different forms of bondage. And that`s probably what got me in trouble, is the bondage thing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Did you hear that? "That`s what got me in trouble, the bondage thing." No, it was the 10 people you killed, that we know of, the binding, the torturing, the killing. Then the cherry on top of the ice cream, he takes the pictures of the dead people in the trunk. That`s BTK -- bind, torture, kill -- Dennis Rader, 10 bodies that we know of.

And if you were chilled, like I was, when you heard him dispassionately describe his victims in court, referring to them as "projects" and putting them down like they were dogs -- well, you know, this guy never quits. It ain`t over yet. He`s still talking.

Tonight on the phone from New Orleans, Amy Davis. She is the granddaughter of a BTK victim. But first, I want to go to Wichita, Kansas, and KAKE-TV reporter Larry Hatteberg. This guy just keeps on talking, right, Larry?

LARRY HATTEBERG, KAKE-TV: He does, and he loves the publicity, Nancy. And last Saturday, he called me at home, and I was able to do an audiotape interview with him. And it was -- it was chilling. Even on that audiotape interview, he shows no remorse. He was exactly like you saw him in court when he pled guilty to those 10 counts of first degree murder.

GRACE: Well, Larry, I`m not going to...

HATTEBERG: He says...

GRACE: ... even try to analyze why a serial killer is calling you. We`ll get back to that in a moment.

HATTEBERG: OK.

GRACE: But take a listen to this.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

RADER: I think the bottom line is I want, you know, the people of Sedgwick County, all of the United States and the world, to know that, yes, you know, I am a serial killer. There`s some things that you can learn from this. I`m not trying to profit from it. You know, I`m going to pay for it with a life sentence. And I mean, the final victims are actually my -- are actually my family.

Well, in the sentencing, it`s going to be the same thing -- very remorseful, very apologetic to them. And I`ll be working on that. That`s part of the thing that I had mentioned working on, is a speech prepared for that. I think sentencing will probably be a pretty emotional day. Probably have to have a box of Kleenexes that day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Larry Hatteberg, he was anything but remorseful. The victims` families heard the way he spoke. And speaking of not profiting, why would he even bring that up on the phone -- I`m not going to profit? Look, Larry, we all know he`s already been working on his memoirs, OK? It`s not a surprise.

HATTEBERG: Yes, but it`s important to point out, Nancy, that he will not be able to receive any money from anything that he writes or any video that he does or anything that he does. All the money collected by Dennis Rader will going to the victims` families. So there is some good news there.

GRACE: How long did he talk to you on the phone?

HATTEBERG: Well, I talked to him on the phone about 16 minutes. And then two days later, myself and Jeff Herndon, one of our other anchors here, met him face to face in the Sedgwick County Detention Center here in Wichita, Kansas, and we talked then for about another 20 minutes.

GRACE: Dr. Ludwig, I don`t understand this guy`s continued need to talk, to describe his murders.

LUDWIG: He`s a show-off, what we call exhibitionistic. He likes being looked at. And I get the sense that he thinks he`s really fascinating and that people are going to want to study him. So again, this grandiosity that he`s unique in some way.

GRACE: To Joe Lawless. If there is ever a chance to somehow reverse the guilty plea, say he didn`t know what he was doing, forget about it now, after all these phone calls he`s making to reporters and talking about himself some more.

LAWLESS: I hope there isn`t, Nancy. I`ve been a criminal defense lawyer for 24 years, and Watching this guy makes me want to go back to be a prosecutor. I would have absolutely no problem asking a jury to sentence this man to death. And I`d do it before he has the chance to show off any more.

GRACE: I want to go to Amy Davis, who`s joining us by phone. She is the granddaughter of one of BTK`s victims. Amy, thank you for being with us. I almost hate to have you on to ask you this because then you have to relive the whole thing again. But what do you make of this guy calling reporters and going on and on and on about himself, how he`s going to have to work on showing remorse and bring a box of Kleenex to court? He didn`t shed a tear, Amy!

AMY DAVIS, BTK VICTIM`S GRANDDAUGHTER: No, he didn`t. It`s infuriating to watch him because he`s a liar. He has no remorse. He`s incapable of any compassion or guilt because he has no conscience. It`s all an act. He`s proud of what he`s done. He can`t wait to be in that courtroom on display for the world to see him. And he`s just like every other sick, pathetic serial murderer that`s come before him. He`s no different than them. He wants to be the standout serial killer, but he`s -- he`s pathetic. And how dare he call himself a Christian.

You know, these "projects" that he refers to his victims as were real people. They were people`s children. They were a father, mothers, grandmothers and sisters and brothers. These were people. They were nothing to him, but they were everything to someone else. And he`s worthless.

GRACE: What do you -- I`ve only got 15 seconds. What about him writing his memoirs behind bars, Amy?

DAVIS: He wants attention because he`s never had the attention he needs.

GRACE: Oh!

DAVIS: And at the trial, when we`re there, we`re not going to focus on him because he`s nothing.

GRACE: Quick break, everybody. With me on the phone, Amy Davis, a victim by BTK.

Quickly, to tonight`s "All Points Bulletin." FBI and law enforcement on the lookout for this woman, Hazel Head, wanted in connection with the murder of Charles Barker (ph) in Benton (ph), Louisiana, 1998, 55 years old, 5-2, 120 pounds, now has blond hair, green eyes, scar on right eye. If you have info, call 504-816-3000.

Local news next for some of you, but we`ll all be right back. And remember, live coverage of the Florida teen drunk driving suit tomorrow 3:00 to 5:00 on Court TV.

Stay with us as we remember Specialist Rafael A. Carillo, Jr., 21, an American hero.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: We at NANCY GRACE want desperately to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Tonight, take a look Amber Hoopes, 23 years old, disappeared from Idaho Falls September, 2001. If you have any information on Amber Hoopes, take a look, call the Carole Sund Carrington Foundation toll-free, 888-813-8389. Please help us.

Very quickly, BTK killer Dennis Rader just won`t stop talking. To Daniel Horowitz, I mean, they get this show tonight in Tibet. Obviously, they probably get it in the Wichita jail. My question is, Does this egg BTK on more? And how will his continued comments to the press affect any legal maneuvers?

HOROWITZ: Well, Nancy, it closes the door. And it should give the victims some sense of permanent closure. There`s no ineffective assistance. There`s nothing. This man did it. He`s rational. He can say he did it. But Nancy, I disagree with everybody who says that this is a purely bad guy. I say, one, he wanted to be caught so he would not kill again. And I give credit to his church and his -- and the people in that church for stopping him from killing by giving him some strength to fight the demons within him.

GRACE: OK, OK, OK, OK!

HOROWITZ: Nancy, you`ve got to care about...

GRACE: All right! I don`t want to hear any more about demons, OK? It`s right and wrong, and he knew what he was doing. He even thought to take a picture of her, for Pete`s sake!

Very quickly, to Larry Hatteberg. Final thought before I let you go?

HATTEBERG: Well, I think it`s important to find out what makes Dennis Rader the monster that Dennis Rader is. And I think that`s why we, as reporters, are asking the questions. There`s so many questions yet to be answered that we have to have the answers to. And then we can let Dennis Rader go away forever. But the questions have to be answered.

GRACE: You think this guy`s going to tell you the truth? Are you kidding me?

HATTEBERG: I don`t know, but we have to seek it.

GRACE: OK.

HATTEBERG: We have to try to --

GRACE: I respect that you`re trying.

HATTEBERG: ... find the truth.

GRACE: I`ve learned a long time ago, Why ask why? All I need to know -- 10 bodies. Thanks, guys.

I want to thank all of my guests tonight, but my biggest thank you is you for being with us, inviting all of us into your homes. A big thank you to two special guests here on the set tonight. My mom and dad are here, Mack (ph) and Elizabeth (ph). Guess what? It`s their 55th wedding anniversary!

(APPLAUSE)

Coming up, headlines from all around the world, Larry on CNN. I`m Nancy Grace, signing off for tonight. See you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 o`clock sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END