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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
London Bombings Suicide Attacks; Tropical Storm Emily; Rove and Plame
Aired July 12, 2005 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, HOST: Good evening, everyone. Breaking news out of Florida, damage to the space shuttle. Can it fly tomorrow?
It's 7:00 p.m. on the East Coast, 4:00 p.m. on the West Coast. 360 starts now.
ANNOUNCER: The president's right-hand man, Karl Rove, under fire. Top Democrats demand that he either step down or be fired. Can the man some call "Bush's brain" survive the political firestorm?
New developments in the terror London attacks. A first arrest made, and police say suicide bombers were the source of the blasts that killed 52. But who were the masterminds of the attack? And are U.S. security forces doing enough to stop suicide bombers from attacking here?
And as a new storm takes aim at the U.S., eBay gets Ramada sign fever.
Live from the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, this is ANDERSON COOPER 360.
COOPER: And good evening again, everyone. We begin with breaking news tonight involving tomorrow's launch of the Space Shuttle Discovery. CNN has learned tonight that the shuttle has been damaged. Miles O'Brien is live at the Kennedy Space Center.
Miles, what happened?
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, it may already be over, believe it or not. We just heard word from NASA that the damage, which occurred when a cover on this window here fell on this little bump here, which is the so-called Orbital Maneuvering System, an important rocket in space, but one of those thermal protection tiles, very critical -- that occurred, wind-blown kind of thing. Nobody dropped anything, it just fell off.
But we're told just moments ago that NASA has been able to rectify this problem. The tiles were on a bolted-on so-called carrier panel. They had a spare. They apparently got out to the pad and were able to make the change. And thus, those tiles, they say, are good to go.
We're going to get a briefing in about a half hour and ask some questions about this because, of course, the whole notion of anything falling on the orbiter and damaging its thermal protection system hearkens back to Columbia two-and-a-half years ago and the (ph) launch here, of course, when that foam fell and hit the leading edge of the wing, which ultimately led to the death of the seven astronauts 16 days later.
Anderson, we'll keep you posted. Right now, they're saying, however, they have fixed this problem. This is obviously a fluid story.
COOPER: Yes, Miles, I mean, I'm no expert on this, but it doesn't sound good, a tile falling off this thing. I mean, isn't this, like, a high-tech, you know, piece of machinery?
O'BRIEN: Well, just to be clear, it was a cover on a window that damaged a tile. And yes, there are 25,000 of these tiles that cover a space shuttle. They're very fragile. They're basically, you know, a ceramic kind of thing. They are able to withstand up to 3,000 degrees. You don't want to have a hole in that barrier that is created by those thermal protection tiles -- 3,000 degrees on aluminum, as we found out during Columbia, is catastrophic. So this is something that NASA's is obviously looking very closely at now. At 7:30, we'll hear their rationale for how they've repaired this apparent damage.
COOPER: OK. And we'll obviously be monitoring that, bring you an update, as warranted. Miles, thanks very much.
To Washington now, trouble of a very different kind, the revelations about Rove, Karl Rove, the senior presidential adviser, one of the most powerful men in Washington.
Now, two years ago, the White House was unequivocal. They said Rove had nothing whatsoever to do with exposing Ambassador Joe Wilson's wife as a CIA operative. Nothing. That's what they said then. They also said if it turned out that someone at the White House was involved in any way at all, well, that someone would be toast.
So far, no bread seems to be getting cooked in Washington. We now know Karl Rove did sort of let the cat out of the bag. Sort of. So what now, with all the tough talk about taking care of leakers?
CNN White House correspondent Suzanne Malveaux investigates.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SUSAN MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): President Bush was asked directly whether he would carry out his pledge to fire anyone caught leaking, including his top political adviser, Karl Rove.
QUESTION: If Rove leaked, are you going to fire him?
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Thank you very much. Thank you.
QUESTION: If he leaked, are you going to fire him?
MALVEAUX: Mr. Bush did not respond. White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan was pummeled for a second day over whether he misled the public with the numerous statements he made over the last two years insisting Rove wasn't involved in the leaking of the covert CIA agent Valerie Plame.
HELEN THOMAS, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST: Has he apologized to you for telling you he was not involved?
SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Helen, I'm not going to get into any private discussions...
THOMAS: I mean, he put you on the spot. He put your credibility on the line.
MCCLELLAN: You all in this room know me very well, and you know the type of person that I am...
MALVEAUX: Rove's critics have seized on the issue.
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: The White's House credibility is at issue here. And I believe, very clearly, Karl Rove ought to be fired.
QUESTION: Senator Clinton, you were nodding. Could you address the camera as well?
SEN. HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D), NEW YORK: I'm nodding.
MALVEAUX: Questions about the Bush administration's credibility about intelligence on Iraq is how this controversy started. In his 2003 State of the Union address, the president uttered a 16-word sentence that had to be taken back.
BUSH: The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.
MALVEAUX: Former Ambassador Joe Wilson wrote that he was sent by the CIA to investigate whether it was true that Iraq was trying to buy uranium in Africa. Wilson concluded that the administration had twisted the intelligence to exaggerate the Iraq threat. According to Rove's lawyer, Rove then spoke to "Time" magazine's Matt Cooper to downplay Wilson's accusations, making the point Wilson's wife worked at the CIA and she authorized the trip.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MALVEAUX: The big concern at the White House now, of course, is how long this will be a distraction for President Bush pushing for his domestic agenda. Case in point, President Bush today met at the White House with Republican and Democratic leaders to talk about Supreme Court nominations, as well as energy policies. Neither of those issues got very much attention today.
Anderson.
COOPER: Suzanne Malveaux at the White House, thanks very much.
Now, you know, often on cable news, we just play sound bites and far too often just let politicians stick to their talking points. Tonight we thought it important to take a look at exactly what the White House once said about possible Rove leaking and what they're saying now because their talking points seem to be straight out of a textbook: Allegation Management 101.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER (voice-over): September 16, 2003, the White House talking points were clear, simple and confident: Deny the allegation absolutely, label it absurd.
QUESTION: Did Karl Rove tell that...
MCCLELLAN: I haven't heard that. That's just totally ridiculous.
I just said it's totally ridiculous.
I said it's totally ridiculous.
COOPER: Almost two weeks later, September 29, confronted with more Rove questions on whether he outed a CIA officer, McClellan was still on point.
MCCLELLAN: I've made it very clear that it was a ridiculous suggestion.
There is simply no truth to that suggestion.
Karl would not be involved in something like this. He was not involved.
COOPER: The following day, the president was on message, too: Stand on principle and consent to an investigation.
BUSH: If there's a leak out of my administration, I want to know who it is.
If somebody did leak classified information, I'd like to know it, and we'll take the appropriate action. And this investigation is a good thing.
COOPER: Fast forward to yesterday, almost two years later. Whoops! Not only was there a leak, but evidence it may have come from Karl Rove. Suddenly, the mood at the White House and their talking- point strategy seemed to change.
DAVID GREGORY, NBC WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Contrary to what you told the American people, he did, indeed, talk about his wife, didn't he?
MCCLELLAN: There will be a time to talk about this, but now is not the time.
COOPER: We counted 37 questions about Rove and leaks.
QUESTION: Does the president stand by his pledge to fire anyone involved in the leak?
GREGORY: Did Karl Rove commit a crime?
QUESTION: Are you concerned that in setting the record straight today...
COOPER: Well, you get the idea. Scott McClellan? He seemed uncomfortable.
MCCLELLAN: While that investigation is ongoing, the White House is not going to comment on it.
This continues to be an ongoing criminal investigation.
Again, these are all questions coming up in the context of an ongoing criminal investigation.
COOPER: And today, at least 30 more questions. The answers rang with a similar theme.
MCCLELLAN: I think it's most helpful for me to not comment while that investigation continues.
I don't want to get into commenting on things in the context of an ongoing investigation, and that means not commenting on it from this podium.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Staying on message there. There was enough spin in Washington today to give you whiplash. The Democrats are rallying their forces to attack. The Republicans seem to be playing both defense and offense.
Just a little over an hour ago, Ken Mehlman, the chairman of the Republican National Committee, was on CNN, on Wolf Blitzer. And we kept noticing him repeating the same phrases and points over and over. Point number one, this is just partisan politics, he said, from those crafty liberals. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEN MEHLMAN, RNC CHAIRMAN: Unfortunately, a political smear that's occurred, and the political smear is people -- John Kerry, Hillary Clinton, Howard Dean and others...
You're seeing a partisan smear by the other side.
You're seeing an unprecedented partisan smear campaign.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Mehlman also seems to be -- or avoid talking about leaks and insists Karl Rove was just talking to a reporter to straighten things out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MEHLMAN: What Joe Wilson alleged was that the vice president, then he said the CIA director, sent him to Niger. He then alleged that he wrote a report which just positively proved that, in fact, that wasn't occurring and that the vice president sat on the report.
What I saw is Karl Rove discouraging Matthew Cooper from writing a story that was, in fact, false.
Karl was right. Joe Wilson was wrong. The story was false. It was based on a false premise. And of course, the conclusion was false.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Tomorrow, we'll follow the talking points, as well. We'd like to know what you think about the Rove revelations. Is it a big deal to you, or a tempest in a teapot, just politics? What do you think? Should -- what should happen to Karl Rove? E-mail us, CNN.com/360. Click on the "Instant Feedback" link. We'd love to hear your thoughts.
In London meantime, significant progress in the investigation into those bombings last week that took more than 50 lives, injured more than 700 people. Houses have been raided, explosives found and seized, and it may be the bombers themselves identified.
CNN senior international correspondent Matthew Chance has the latest.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): They've screened 2,500 security tapes like these to get here. Now police say they've connected four men to the London bombings, caught on surveillance cameras arriving in London just minutes before the bombings took place.
(on camera): So this is King's Cross station, where the four suspects are known to have traveled by train from Leeds in the north of England down here to London. They were caught on the security cameras here, and police have identified them as being here on this very concourse just before 8:30 in the morning on Thursday, the 7th of July. They then went their separate ways to the tube station over there, to the buses over there. And just 20 minutes later, the bombs exploded at 8:50.
(voice-over): It's at the Aldgate station bombing, a few stops from King's Cross, where the puzzle begins to fit together. Police say forensic evidence suggests one of the four men died on the train. And a look at the locations of the other attacks indicates the bombers purposely spread out for maximum chaos.
(on camera): Let me just show you this map of the London Underground system. You can see we're here at King's Cross, and all the targets are within a short distance from here. Just to the west, Aldgate station, where the bomber struck and seven people were killed. To the west, again, from King's Cross station, a simple train ride to Edgeware Road, where another seven people were killed. Then in the worst attack of the sequence, just south of King's Cross, on the Picadilly line towards Russell Square, police now say at least 25 people at that bomb attack lost their lives.
(voice-over): The three bombs exploded within 50 seconds of each other, the fourth exploding 57 minutes later on a bus not far away, at Tavistock Square, now a crime scene. (on camera): Well, police say their forensic teams have found personal documents here from one of the bombers, and at the other two locations that were bombed, to the west, Edgeware Road, and to the south, between King's Cross and Russell Square, personal documents there of the suspects, indicating that all four were killed in the blast.
Now, the initial reaction may be that we're dealing with multiple suicide bombings now, despite what the police said. But terrorism analysts say there are other possibilities being considered, as well.
CHRISTOPHER RUANE, SECURITY ANALYST: Another possibility, which would be consistent with evidence from Sunni extremists in Saudi Arabia, Iraq and elsewhere, is that these were people who, in fact, did not know that what they were carrying was a bomb. They thought they had been carrying something else innocuous. And it was remotely detonated or detonated on a timer.
Over the course of the investigation, of course, hopefully, there will be sufficient evidence from the psychological to suggest which of these is the most likely answer.
CHANCE (voice-over): Searching for these answers, police now to appear to have made this major breakthrough, identifying suspects and making at least one arrest. But who armed the bombers and sent them to their targets still a major question here.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHANCE: Well, police here in Britain really lifting the lid, it seems, Anderson, on the gang that carried out this bombings. All of the individual bombers, or suspects, at least, are said to be British, though police also say they're looking into the possibility that they may have had overseas assistance, foreign expertise to help them build the bombs, plan and carry out these attacks. Back to you, Anderson.
COOPER: It's very impressive that they've been able to move so fast and identify these individuals. I know in Spain, it took up to a month to find individuals who were involved.
What's the situation at King's Cross station underground? Have they been able to get to the carriage where the bomb was? Have they been able to retrieve any of those bodies?
CHANCE: Well, this is still proving to be one of the most difficult operations in the recovery effort and in the forensic examination, as well. As you know, just below the surface here, a short distance from King's Cross station, one of the worst attacks. It's now been -- the casualty figures there now up to 25 people confirmed dead in that attack.
Police, emergency teams and forensic teams still very much trying hard to get to the hull of that carriage. They've obviously made some progress in getting to some parts of the train they hadn't got to before. But this operation is not over. They've still got a lot of work to do deep underneath the ground here to get all the forensic evidence that they can, this very gruesome, it seems, scene deep under the ground here at King's Cross, Anderson.
COOPER: Matthew, thanks very much. Yes, it is so horrible to think about those lost souls still stuck in that train, those families waiting for word and the conditions so difficult for rescue workers there.
(NEWS BREAK)
COOPER: Ahead on 360, only July, we are just two days after Dennis, and now another major storm, Emily, is on the move. Will it strike the U.S.? We'll get an update on that.
Also, the latest on our developing story tonight, damage to the Space Shuttle Discovery's protective tiles. There's going to be a press conference in about 15 minutes. We're going to see if it's going to take off tomorrow. We'll bring you the latest on that. And first...
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SUSAN STEIN, NEW YORK CITY RESIDENT: He said, If you notice someone who would get on the bus in the summer with a heavy coat or with something heavy around their waist, this -- you need to notify the driver immediately.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: How to spot a suicide bomber, what you should look for on a bus or a train. This woman got a lesson she never expected on a New York City bus. We'll explain.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Well, since the London terror attack, the threat level for all ground transit systems in the U.S. has been raised to orange, indicating a high risk of a terror attack. Now, that means stepped-up security on trains and subways and, of course, on buses.
It's not just the police who are watching. Last week, passengers on one New York City bus were given a surprise lesson on how to spot a suicide bomber.
CNN's Kelly Wallace reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KELLY WALLACE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Susan Stein, a New York City mother of three, was taking a bus home last Thursday morning when a police officer did a random safety check and talked about something startling.
STEIN: What really struck me was that he began talking about what a suicide bomber would look like. And I was shocked.
WALLACE: Then he got specific.
STEIN: He said, If you notice someone who would get on a bus in the summer with a heavy coat or with something heavy around their waist, this -- you need to notify the driver immediately.
WALLACE: He then used language new to her but common to terrorism experts.
STEIN: He used the word "zombie." He said right before a suicide bomber would commit that act, they would look like a zombie. It was unbelievable.
WALLACE (on camera): When people are listening to what this person is saying, what's the mood like on the bus?
STEIN: It was serious. People were serious. They -- I have to believe that they had never heard this before. And he had everyone's attention. He actually commanded it.
WALLACE (voice-over): And so we wondered, in light of last week's London bomb blasts, had New York City Police started something new, not just doing routine checks but also specifically warning passengers to beware of suicide bombers. New York's Police commissioner says no.
RAY KELLY, NEW YORK CITY POLICE COMMISSIONER: We're a big organization. Somebody -- some enterprising sergeant may have given them talking points. That's always possible. But it's not a policy where he's getting on and saying, Hi, my name is, and look out for this. You know, we don't have that right now.
WALLACE: Still, the commissioner did not rule out such a policy in the future. Susan Stein thinks it would be a good idea.
STEIN: It was a reminder, but it wasn't a reminder on TV with another color coming up that people were just not even hearing anymore. It was a police officer practically talking directly to you and saying, this can happen. Here's what to do to avoid it.
WALLACE: And after a day when New Yorkers couldn't help but remember September 11, she hopes New Yorkers remain vigilant.
(on camera): Do you feel like it's just a matter of time...
STEIN: I do.
WALLACE: ... before we see a suicide bombing in the U.S.?
STEIN: God forgive me for even saying it out loud, but I do.
WALLACE (voice-over): Kelly Wallace, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: We should also point out that in a statement tonight to 360, NYPD Deputy Commissioner Paul J. Browne said -- and I quote -- "The officer conveyed information that he received through his own training. By all accounts, it was well received, and we are considering making it an official practice."
We're also getting a lot of e-mails from you about Karl Rove, about these Rove revelations, what you think should happen. You can send us an e-mail at 360 -- what is it? CNN.com/360, and then you click on the "Instant Feedback" link. Ahead on -- we'll try to read some of those a little bit later.
Also ahead tonight, the BTK killer talking again, this time from prison. You're going to hear his new chilling comments.
Also, two days after Dennis, now Emily, tropical storm, could be a hurricane -- major hurricane again, is on the move. Will this one hit the U.S.? And where and when and how strong? We'll look into all of that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Watch out for that aluminum! Watch out! Get back! Get back! Get back!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look at that! It's coming apart!
COOPER: Look over there!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's coming apart!
COOPER: That is aluminum. That's one of the signs (INAUDIBLE)
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's all coming apart!
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Oh, yes. Well, surfing the Net today, we noticed, of all things, bits and pieces of that very Ramada sign for sale. Here's the 360 "Download." On eBay, fragments of the sign selling right now for about 15 bucks. There's apparently six days left to bid.
There's also even something funnier on eBay that we saw, a potato -- here it is -- said to bear an uncanny resemblance to yours truly. Let's get a shot there. There. Someone is selling that potato with the Ramada sign stuck, sort of a la Steve Martin, on both sides of its head. It bears an uncanny resemblance to me, I think. The bidding on that, I think right now, is about $1.25. And then, it's funny, actually. It's got all these different shots. That's me in the reeds, I guess. That's me talking to Kyra Phillips. Some very clever person on eBay. That's me lounging by the pool after I had cleaned up a little bit. All right, we'll watch the thing. We'll see how much it actually ends up going for.
While we're on the subject of bad weather, here's CNN Meteorologist Jacqui Jeras in Atlanta with new looming trouble, Tropical Storm Emily. I don't even want to know about this, Jacqui, but I know a lot of people do. So tell me.
JACQUI JERAS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Yes, I know. I do have to know, though, Anderson, if you bid on that potato. So let me know when I finish up here. This is Tropical Storm Emily. It's packing winds around 50 miles per hour. It has increased in intensity for today, and it is expected to continue to do so, likely becoming a hurricane before it makes its way into the Leeward Islands. There are hurricane warnings now that have been posted for Barbados, Grenada, the Grenadine Islands, St. Vincent and St. Lucia Islands. So that means hurricane conditions are expected within 24 hours.
The forecast track has it pushing off to the west and then starting to turn a little bit on up to the north and west. It will be in the Caribbean Sea then, as we head into the latter part of the week and into the weekend.
And the question is, of course, will this be affecting the United States? It's still too early to tell, but you need to be on alert if you live along the Gulf Coast, if you live anywhere in Florida, or if you live on the Atlantic coast. We'll continue to watch it very closely, but it looks like it's going to be forecasted to be another major hurricane -- Anderson.
COOPER: Oy! Unbelievable. All right, Jacqui. Thanks very much.
Coming up next, we're going to look at the situation with the Space Shuttle Discovery. Is it going to go off tomorrow? Press conference in just a few minutes. We'll bring you the latest.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: I want to update you now on our top story, a developing one out of Kennedy Space Center. Space Shuttle Discovery set to launch tomorrow. It's been damaged. We are now hearing, though, the problem has been fixed.
Miles O'Brien is there. Miles, what do you know?
O'BRIEN: Well, call this 90-minute worry, I guess. Ninety minutes ago we first heard that a possibility that a cover from one of these windows dropped onto this thing. It's called the Orbital Maneuvering System. It's an important rocket for the shuttle.
But more important, what we're talking about is a piece of tile here. And those of us who remember Columbia remember how important those tiles are. It protects them from the 3,000 degree heat of re- entry. And so when we heard there was damage there, there was concern. What happened was it happened to be a place where it didn't have to be glued on. The titles were actually attached to another panel. The panel was unscrewed and then the new one was popped in. Apparently, the fix has been made. And they will, in just short order -- as a matter of fact, they're in the process right now of removing the rotating service structure on the launch pad. Maybe we can punch out a live picture for you of the launch pad now. Launch pad 39B here, about three-and-a-half miles here, where the Space Shuttle Discovery is still enshrouded by that gray cover there, the cocoon-like rotating service structure. We're told it's in the process soon, though, of being pulled back. We'll see the orbiter, Discovery, in just a little while. But that damage, they say, has been repaired.
Nevertheless, Anderson, the thought of something falling and hitting something that protects these orbiters terminally (ph) certainly takes us back to Columbia two and a half years ago.
COOPER: So as of now the launch is good to go?
O'BRIEN: Good to go.
COOPER: All right. Miles O'Brien, thanks very much.
Coming up next on 360, we're looking at love and marriage all this week. Tonight, how the old-fashioned ways of courtship are making a comeback. We're talking about no dating, no touching, no nothing. We'll explain.
Also, tonight, if you drive a car and use a cell phone, even one of those hands-free phones, you're putting yourselves and others in real danger. We're going to show you why.
And later, an interview with the serial killer, the BTK strangler, a jailhouse conversation coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DENNIS RADER, BTK KILLER (video clip): And I proceeded to tie her up. She got sick. Threw up. Got her a glass of water. Comforted her a bit. And went ahead and tied her up. Put a bag over her head and strangled her.
COOPER: Without a shred of emotion or hint of remorse, BTK serial killer Dennis Rader confessing to cold-blooded murder numerous times, telling the judge how he offered the victim a glass of water before he killed her. And he killed ten people. The question is, would he have killed again? A new jailhouse interview seems to answer that question. Listen.
(BEGIN AUDIOTAPE)
LARRY HATTEBERG, KAKE-TV ANCHOR: Were you going to kill again?
RADER: No, although, I did set some things up for the police to take a couple of spins on it, but I was pretty well shutting things down.
HATTEBERG: So you were not going to kill again? You had no projects in the works? RADER: Well, yes and no. There was probably, there was probably one more. I was really thinking about it, but I was getting to slow down, my -- age-wise, my thinking process so it probably would have never went. It was probably more of an ego thing.
HATTEBERG: Had you picked the person at that point?
RADER: Oh, yes, uh-huh. There was one already picked out.
HATTEBERG: Do you know her name?
RADER: No, not at this time. No, no, no. I'll never release that.
(END AUDIOTAPE)
COOPER: Unbelievable. Larry Hatteberg is the anchor from KAKE- TV who conducted the jailhouse interview with Rader. He joins us now from Wichita. Good to see you.
You followed this case from the beginning. You were there at the first murder and made this on-camera appeal for BTK to keep corresponding with you. What was your impression of him, talking to him directly?
HATTEBERG (on camera): Talking to him directly both on the phone and face-to-face in a jailhouse interview, it's kind of like talking to your neighbor over the back fence.
You don't feel any more remorse when you're talking to him. You look into his eye. You don't see it there. You listen to his voice, you don't hear it there. He's very comfortable in jail. And he talks to you just very matter-of-factly about everything he's done and of course what his future is. It's a very odd feeling talking to a serial killer and hearing no tone or tenor in his voice at all or remorse.
COOPER: I mean, this guy had a family, he had kids, he had a wife. In your interview, it seems like he's conflicted about some of that. Let's listen to what he has to say.
RADER (audio clip): You know, how could a guy like me, a church member, with a family go out and do these sorts of things. The only thing I can figure out, I'm departmentalized somewhere in my body where I can do those sorts of things and go back and live a normal life, which is unbelievable.
COOPER: Did he talk more about what was really driving him to kill? Because he had basically these fantasies going on in his head. Did he talk more about that? Because he didn't in court.
HATTEBERG: Well, he did, actually, I asked him because one of the members of the victim's families believes that he had to have an accomplice to have killed these people. And I asked him directly, did you have an accomplice? And he said, no, but then he said, kind of oddly, I had a little friend with me. And I said, a little friend? And as he started talking, what he's referring to are the demons that are within him. And he's drawn the demons on an envelope that he's sent to one of the anchors here. It's a frog-like thing that you're seeing there with the horns and tail and the bat wings on it. And that is sort of a visual manifestation, if you will, of what he believes is driving him.
But he also told me that he doesn't understand this demon thing. And he doesn't understand how he can commit these crimes. And he hopes that by psychiatrists and psychologists interviewing him that at some point they can find out what causes him to kill. Because he says, he wants to find out, too.
COOPER: Well, that could be ego and pride. He seems to sort of take pride in his killings. You talked a little bit about his past and when all this began. Let's listen to what he said.
(BEGIN AUDIOTAPE)
HATTEBERG: When did you first know that you had a problem?
RADER: This was a building thing. This had started many, many, many years ago.
HATTEBERG: Can you pinpoint when you knew that there was a problem coming.?
RADER: I would say probably even when I was in probably grade school I sort of had problems.
HATTEBERG: And what kind of problems were those?
RADER: Sexual fantasies. Probably more than normal. You got to remember, that was puberty, just coming through puberty. And I, all males - probably go through some kind of sexual fantasies. Mine were just a little bit, probably, a little bit weirder than other people. I think somewhere along the line I knew. Probably by the time I was in eighth grade or a freshman in high school I knew I had some abnormal tendencies at that point in time.
But it exploded on January 15, 1974. That's when it finally -- that's when the ballgame exploded.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: That's incredible. He called it that's when the ballgame exploded. January 15, 1974, that's the day he killed the four members of the Otero family. Did anyone notice anything strange about him growing up?
HATTEBERG: Well, we don't know. We don't know if he asked for help and didn't get it or exactly what happened. Now, there was a news conference held by the members of the Wichita Police Department, the task force, the investigators who worked on this. And they said that so far they found that there was nothing in his background that they've been able to find out that would account for the way Dennis Rader is today. So, so far we don't know what the key is, we don't know what the root cause is that made Dennis Rader the killer that he became.
COOPER: Larry Hatteberg, a fascinating interview. I appreciate you joining us from KAKE-TV.
HATTEBERG: Sure.
COOPER: Thanks.
Another development right now in the BTK case, his home is sold at auction. Here's the "Download." Dennis Rader's 960 square foot house in Park City, Kansas, was purchased for $90,000 by an owner of an exotic dance club. The new owner has no immediate plans, but he says he insists any proceeds will go to help Rader's wife and children. But already, the family of the one of the victims has filed a wrongful death suit and the lawyer says they may be entitled to some of the money from that sale.
Erica Hill from HEADLINE NEWS joins us with the other stories we are following right now. Erica?
ERICA HILL, CNN HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR: Hey, Anderson, good to see you again. And we start off with some of those stories.
We're actually going to start off for you with more on a case that we've been following for some time, the man accused of kidnapping and sexually abusing two young Idaho children has now been charged with murder. Idaho prosecutors charging Joseph Duncan with the deaths of Shasta Groene's mother, older brother and the mother's boyfriend. Now, they didn't charge him with the murder of Shasta's brother, Dylan since his remains were uncovered in another state. Shasta was found 10 days ago at an Idaho restaurant seven weeks after she disappeared.
In Bagram, Afghanistan, the U.S. military is searching for four suspected Arab fighters who escaped from the base there. Now, the U.S. says the suspects are a threat to Afghans and the global war on terrorism. Yesterday morning's breakout was the detention facility's first.
At a cliff-top cathedral in Monaco, Prince Albert II ascends to the throne. A religious service and ceremony proclaiming Albert the successor to his father, Prince Rainier III, who died in April. Fireworks set to rock music capped off today's events. Another ceremony involving foreign leaders is scheduled for November.
And this next one is going to come as a shock, but across America, people are wasting time on the job. I don't know if I can believe this. According to an online survey by America Online and Salary.com, many U.S. workers say they squander more than two hours a day at the workplace. That doesn't include lunch, by the way.
So what are they doing? According to the survey, top activities including Web surfing, socializing, personal phone calls, maybe just spacing out. Anderson?
COOPER: Huh?
HILL: Yeah.
COOPER: Oh, Erica. Thanks very much.
Let's check in with our control room and see if they're actually doing any work. Are they? Oh, man, that's pathetic.
HILL: This is a nightly occurrence at AC360, right?
COOPER: That's very -- They're playing games, man. Erica Hill, I appreciate that.
Coming up next on 360, cell phones and driving. We all know it's dangerous, but you know those hands-free devices, people think it makes the trip safer. There's a surprising new report you've got to hear. It doesn't.
Also tonight, it is love without kissing. Could a strict courtship guided by parents be the key to a long-healthy marriage? A lot of people seem to be coming around to this way of thinking. We'll take a look in our special series, "Love, Sex and Marriage," all week long.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Well, yeah, we all know those cell phones, the ones that beep our favorite tunes and serve as a lifeline in an emergency, play for a meeting or desperate to talk about today's "Oprah," we simply cannot live without cell phones. In fact, a lot of people risk their lives to use cell phones by talking while they're driving.
Perhaps you use a hands-free set and you feel you're safer. You think you're okay. But Tom Foreman tonight finds out, that that may not be the case. And the danger could be far worse than you think. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): You've seen it happen too many times. Someone cuts you off. Makes a right turn into the left lane. Nearly runs you down, happily chatting on the phone the whole time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yesterday I was driving to work.
FOREMAN: Ajip Forjee (ph) says it just happened to him when he ran up against another driver more interested in talking than traveling.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They decided they were going to take a left turn from the middle lane.
FOREMAN: On the phone?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On the phone. With their phone plastered to their ear. Not even using the headset. And they were jabbering away. They didn't even notice which way they were going. And they cut across their lane and my lane and almost caused an accident.
FOREMAN: Tests in traffic simulators established years ago that fumbling with any object can make a driver dangerous. But this new study goes much further, saying cell phone use makes a serious accident four times more likely. And this may surprise you, using a headset with both hands on the wheel changes nothing. It's just as dangerous. Rather, the new data suggests that talking alone, just having a conversation on the phone, is a huge distraction. So even though dozens of states and cities now say you can use a cell phone, but only with a headset, researchers say that doesn't make it any safer.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In fact, to the extent drivers perceive the hands-free phone use is safer in some sense, this could even have a detrimental effect if drivers increase their use of hands-free phones.
FOREMAN: But not so fast. Defenders of the mobile phone industry suggests that using a phone while driving is like driving while eating a donut. Drivers need to be cautious, aware and some aren't.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So it wouldn't matter if they were drinking beverages or eating burgers or talking to other passengers or playing the radio, whatever. They're just maybe not very good drivers.
FOREMAN: Ajit is not buying it.
You nearly had accidents yourself talking on the cell phone in the car. And now you don't use it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The reality of it is people don't need to use their cell phones in their cars if it is an emergency. And if it is an emergency, pull over.
FOREMAN: Otherwise, the next emergency could quite easily be you. Tom Foreman, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Let's find out what's coming up at the top of the hour. Hey, Paula.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN HOST: Hi, Anderson. Thanks so much. Maybe you know someone who has food allergies either while growing up or developed them late in life. You might be shocked to learn that the problem is now more widespread and much more dangerous.
At the top of the hour I'm going to have a story of a brave little girl who thought her allergies were under control until her French fries were touched by tongs that had touched the wrong kind of food. You are not going to believe the consequences. And what we learned tonight from this family, Anderson, I am hoping will save a lot of lives out there.
COOPER: Yeah, you got to be so careful with that. Paula, thanks. That's at the top of the hour. But next on 360, a beautiful bride and a groom who had met all her dad's qualifications. The question is, is a strict, old-fashioned courtship the key to making a marriage last? One family thinks so. In fact, a lot of families are thinking so these days. We're going to take a look, part of our special weeklong series, "Love, Sex and Marriage."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: In a moment, we'll have the first part of our series on "Love, Sex and Marriage," but first, we've been getting a lot of e- mails from you over the last hour about the Rove revelations, revelations about Karl Rove.
Martha from Santa Fe wrote in: "I'm both a journalist and a daughter of a former undercover CIA operative. So I see this issue from all perspectives. Bottom line, Karl Rove knew exactly what he was doing and should be fired immediately, if not go to jail later."
Bob from St. Joseph, Michigan: "Karl Rove should receive no special consideration. If what he did was wrong and embarrasses the administration, then he should resign."
Dave sees it differently from Corona, California. Dave writes: "Karl Rove did not instigate the phone call. He was set up by Cooper." Matt Cooper. "He answered his questions and tried to convince him he was writing a false story. He did not leak classified information."
We should point out, there are still a lot of questions to be answered. Who were Judith Miller's sources, and Bob Novak as well. Was Rove involved in that. A lot to be found out.
Send us your thoughts anytime. Log on to CNN.com/360. Click on the "Instant Feedback" link.
All this week, we're looking at "Love, Sex and Marriage." And tonight, how do you make sure that your kids have a happy marriage with the right person?
Look, we've all seen the studies. Nearly half of all high- schoolers have had sexual intercourse. But it doesn't have to be that way. The family you're about to meet have decided there will be no dating. Their mates are chosen through an old- fashioned process, courtship.
Here's CNN's Heidi Collins.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I pronounce you man and wife. You may kiss your bride.
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Drew and Sarah Starnes did something on their wedding day they had never done before. They kissed. And kissed. And kissed.
Believe it or not, for Sarah, it was her first kiss ever.
SARAH STARNES, MARRIED 6 1/2 YEARS: It was a long time. I was totally ready for it.
COLLINS: Until she was married, Sarah, like her sisters, Rebecca and Melissa, had never been physical in any way with a man. In fact, they had never even dated.
MELISSA HUMES, MARRIED 10 YEARS IN AUGUST: When we saw friends dating, we felt sorry for them. We were just like, because they, you know, three months, you know, they were breaking up, six months, they were breaking up.
COLLINS: When a boy expressed interest, the girls didn't give their phone number; they gave them their dad's business card. Tom McMinn believes a man should court his daughters, not date them. That means no love interests allowed until his children are ready to be married.
TOM MCMINN, BELIEVES IN COURTSHIP: We start to develop with them kind of a check list of what I'm looking for in a guy.
COLLINS: Tom and his wife Diane raised seven kids and 12 grandkids at their ranch in Hempstead, Texas. Tom says he spent hours interviewing potential husbands for his oldest daughters.
TOM MCMINN: I'm looking for a man that's going to unconditionally love my daughter, that would give his life for my daughter, that understands what a precious jewel she is.
COLLINS: Sarah remembers what happened when she was 18 and overheard her dad on the phone with the man she would later marry.
S. STARNES: He's talking to somebody and he's talking about me, he's talking about marriage. And I was, like, who are they talking to? And at the end of the conversation, he's like, well, thanks for calling, Drew, we'll keep talking about this. And I was like, Drew? Drew who?
COLLINS (on camera): And this was the guy that your father was talking about marrying you.
S. STARNES: Yes.
COLLINS: How do you know when a guy is right for your daughter?
T.OM MCMINN: First of all, he'd have to be a born-again Christian. Secondly, he would be a man that hadn't been sexually involved with another woman. Thirdly, he would be a man of proven character and integrity, and that would be through people I knew, talking with -- spending time with his parents.
COLLINS (voice-over): Getting past dad is just the first step. The girls, including sister Melissa, are pretty demanding of their future husbands, too.
(on camera): Throughout the courtship, were there moments where you tested Andrew to see if he was going to meet the challenge?
HUMES: Yes. I didn't necessarily do it, but I asked my dad to do it. Like, I would say, can, you know, is Andrew going to work with you on the fence today?
COLLINS: Why was that important to you? What does that tell you?
HUMES: Well, if you drop a hammer on your toe, are you going to, like, say a whole bunch of curse words? And I wanted to know, I don't want to marry an angry man.
COLLINS (voice-over): But it wasn't always easy. For the girls' future husbands, fence-building was often the last thing on their mind.
(on camera): What do you do? I mean, there's Sarah, she's like right there, and you just -- she looks so great today, and you just want to plant one on her?
DREW STARNES, SARAH'S HUSBAND: There was that temptation. And that's part of the great design of courtship, is that when those times come, a lot of times you do have other people around.
COLLINS: We're in God's country, and I wonder if it isn't quite a bit easier to live this type of lifestyle...
TOM MCMINN: Well, it is...
COLLINS: Without those other influences?
TOM MCMINN: Well, it is, that's a good point, especially for the boys. We home-school, and we study hard, and we work hard, and we play hard. Where other kids might be going out on dates and everything, you have to replace that with something else.
COLLINS (voice-over): The no-dating, nothing physical rule can be especially hard for teens.
It's something 15-year-old Tommy McMinn feels every day.
(on camera): What are you thinking when you're out here on a day like this, and you're with your dad, I mean, do you ever have conversations about -- about girls?
TOMMY MCMINN, SON: He tells me what to do and just over -- willpower over hormones and stuff, and just basically get over your feelings and stuff.
COLLINS (voice-over): In an age of MTV, "Sex and the City," courtship may sound positively pre-historic.
Even though there is no statistic on how many families practice courtship, at Patrick Henry College outside of Washington, D.C., courtship is part of the curriculum.
MICHAEL FARRIS, PATRICK HENRY COLLEGE: We have to ask ourselves as a society, why do half the marriages end in divorce?
COLLINS: President and founder Michael Farris says, at this college, there is no casual dating allowed. Hand-holding and kissing on campus are a violation of the honor code, unless students have approval from their parents.
FARRIS: What people say when they walk down the aisle at marriage is I love you with all of my heart. And for most people, what they say is, I love you with the shreds of my heart that remain because you've given away little pieces along the way.
COLLINS: But that hasn't happened at the McMinn's house, where the girls' wedding dresses still neatly hang. The McMinn daughters say they have their husbands' whole heart.
(on camera): Are you happy?
STARNES: I'm very happy.
HUMES: Yes. We talk about it all the time. I've been married 10 years. Oh, man, I can't wait until 25.
COLLINS (voice-over): Heidi Collins, CNN, Hempstead, Texas.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Well, they seem very happy, indeed. We'd love to hear what you think about courtship, whether it can work for you or people you know. Send us an e-mail at CNN.com/360. And then you just click on the "Instant Feedback" link.
I'm Anderson Cooper. Thanks very much for watching this edition of 360. CNN's primetime coverage continues now with Paula Zahn. Hey, Paula.
ZAHN: Oh, I'd love to read some of those e-mails.
COOPER: You can.
ZAHN: Especially a proposal or two. Thanks, Anderson.
END
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