Skip to main content


Return to Transcripts main page


Nancy Grace for July 13, 2005, CNNHN

Aired July 13, 2005 - 20:00:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, live to Aruba. A roller coaster ride of emotions, up and down, there on the tiny island as hopes were raised today for a break in the Natalee Holloway case. The 18-year-old girl went missing from her high school senior trip there in Aruba.
Natalee Holloway`s family tonight on edge. In the last two hours, Natalee`s mom has publicly announced she has information that the three suspects are, in fact, involved in her daughter`s disappearance, as they all wait for a judge`s ruling to be handed down in the in the next 24 hours. That ruling could make or break the search for Natalee Holloway.

And a prominent scientist on trial for the murder of his wife and then -- catch this -- staging the scene to look like a car crash. That`s right. A preeminent researcher, Doctor Jonathan Nyce, says it was all just an accident, but the prosecution says the doctor killed her. And of course, there`s a lover involved.

And tonight, Lady Justice takes a blow. One word, just one word is missing from dozens of Miranda warnings in Florida and the floodgates are open, cages reversed, killers walking free, probably straight to our neighborhood.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace, and I want to thank you for being with us tonight.

We are in a verdict watch in the case of a scientist, Dr. Jonathan Nyce. He`s on trial for the murder of his wife, Michelle, over her affair with the gardener. Nyce says her death was really just a big accident. But the prosecution says forensics proved it couldn`t possibly have happened the way the doctor claims. We are waiting for that jury to hand down a verdict that speaks the truth.

And believe it or not, killers walk free from prison in Florida after being convicted by juries. Why? One word missing from Miranda warnings. And it`s not just one. There are dozens of cases already, possibly more on the way.

But first, tonight, to Aruba. An American search team combing the island, reverses their decision to give up the search. They agreed to stay on the island. As of tonight, only one suspect remaining, Joran Van Der Sloot, the judge`s son, behind bars. The others have walked free.

Tonight, we wait, along with the Holloway family, on a judge`s ruling whether he, too, will walk free.

Tonight, West Tampa, Florida, defense attorney Joe Episcopo; in Seattle, Washington, defense attorney Anne Bremner; in New York, clinical psychologist Dr. Patricia Saunders.

But first, let`s go to Atlanta and CNN correspondent Karl Penhaul. Karl, what happened today in the search? For a moment there, hopes were up.

KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: There certainly was a flurry of activity up there on the northern shore of Aruba, an area called Boca Prim (ph). Now, that`s in the national park, an area of soft sand dunes in an outlet where a dry riverbed meets the stormy sea there.

And what Texas EquuSearch members had found, according to what they`ve told me by phone, is a four-foot deep hole, a pile of sand alongside it. And they thought that this may have been a hole that could have been used to store Natalee`s remains for a temporary period of time and then later dug up and moved on.

They called in the police. The police came in. And later on in the afternoon, they ruled out any connection between this hole and Natalee`s disappearance, Nancy.

GRACE: So, Karl, the first thing I had heard earlier today was there was shallow digging the size of -- the dimensions of a body. And that must have caused a flurry of activity.

To Dr. Patricia Saunders, very quickly, you`ve got this whole family on pins and needles. They`re waiting for this judge, who is apparently chummy with the chief suspect`s father, for Pete`s sake, waiting on a decision. And now they hear this, this shallow digging, the dimensions of a body. They must have thought the worst.

DR. PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: I think there in the process of getting used to the idea that Natalee may not be coming home.

GRACE: Everybody, take a listen to this.


BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, MOTHER OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY: I would like to apologize to the Aruban people and the Aruban authorities if I or my family offended you in any way. It was never my intention to do so. And as for the Aruban people, they have been extremely kind and generous and especially supportive of myself and my family during this tragedy.

QUESTION: Beth Holloway`s apology on Friday, were you happy with the that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let`s not comment on that.

QUESTION: Do you think it applied to your client?


QUESTION: Do you wish it would have?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I wish it would have, yes.


GRACE: First, that was Natalee Holloway`s mother -- we`ve had here on the show many nights begging for information regarding her daughter -- apologizing to people there in Aruba.

Karl Penhaul, they wanted an apology, and then others close to the case said that apology wasn`t good enough? Why was Natalee`s mother having to issue an apology? Ridiculous!

PENHAUL: Certainly this case has been very closely watched by the people of Aruba. You`ll remember, in the first few days, the people of Aruba turned out en masse to help for the hunt for Natalee.

As the case has gone on, as Natalee`s mom is staying there, the people of Aruba have continued to help, but the hackles have been roused, also, by the continued media presence and because they keep hammering on this case, hammering on this case. The Aruban people feel the image of their island has been affected. Since that`s at stake, then that`s offended some people.

GRACE: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Karl Penhaul, the woman is in Aruba looking, walking along by foot, looking for her daughter, crying into a TV camera every night, putting up flyers for her daughter. And they want an apology because she is not happy with the way the investigation is going? Did I just hear that?

PENHAUL: As I say, island sensibilities have been hurt somewhat by the continued attention on this case. And they feel that they`re been getting a rough ride.

GRACE: They`re getting a rough...

PENHAUL: They insist that Aruba is essentially a safe place.

GRACE: You know what? OK, very quickly to Tim Miller. He is joining us. Tim Miller is the leader of EquuSearch, a team of specialists out of Texas.

Tim Miller, I know you went there on your own dime, accepting only some donations to try to help find Natalee. Tell me about the search and your decision to stay on a little while longer and look for Natalee Holloway.

TIM MILLER, EQUUSEARCH LEADER: Well, Nancy, I think if we leave this island, I believe the search is totally over with. We evaluated some things the night before last, felt as though maybe we`ve not covered everything as well as we wanted to.

We found an area up close, a fisherman`s hut, that we was interested in. We actually rented a backhoe. We went in there, cleared some debris out. There was a couple of mounds of dirt that we went ahead and cleared out.

And where we found that area today that kind of looked like a grave, which looked exactly like a grave -- we know what that looks like -- I`m not thoroughly convinced yet that that didn`t at one time or another have something to do with Natalee. We actually got a...

GRACE: Well, Tim, what makes you think it doesn`t? Why are you convinced it doesn`t?

MILLER: Well, see, we actually got a lead on that from a guy that we was searched in one area on the total other side of the island that told us that we needed to go over there and what to look for. And when we walked in there, he said, "Stay away from that hole, because there is probably evidence there."

So it was like maybe somebody knew something and was sending us over there. So, you know, at this time, I really don`t know. You would have had to see what we saw to really understand what I`m saying.

And so, it`s things like this that we`re finding every day that ends up, at the end of the day, we may be disappointed, but you know what? If we stay and we continue, there is that small, small chance that we may end up and find her.

So, I mean, if we can find just one of her hairs and know that she was there through DNA or something, I mean I think that`d do a tremendous amount to this case.

GRACE: Right.

MILLER: How can we leave a family alone during this period of time? I don`t think we could do that.

GRACE: Tim Miller, many of us believe that you, along with Natalee`s family, are the only ones really looking at this point for Natalee Holloway.

I`m going to quickly go back to Karl Penhaul. Karl, aside from the shallow digging that was found today that Tim Miller just described -- very scary for the family to hear that, but at this juncture, they probably want to hear anything. Tell me what`s happening on the legal front, Karl Penhaul.

PENHAUL: Well, as we know, yesterday, a series of appeals were filed at the court in Aruba. And now three appeals judges from neighboring Curacao are mulling over those arguments.

GRACE: Oh, yes, where are they mulling it over, Karl? Are they all sitting at the country club or with Joran Van Der Sloot`s daddy?

PENHAUL: No, they`ve gone back...

GRACE: The judge?

PENHAUL: No, they`ve gone back to Curacao. That was one of the reasons the judges are being brought into Curacao, so that they`re not judges from the circuit that either Judge Paul Van Der Sloot would have operated on or any of the other legal officials on the island.

GRACE: Another thing I learned, just as we came to air tonight, Karl Penhaul, Natalee`s mother has stated that she believes she knows information that suggests these three are, in fact, responsible for Natalee`s disappearance. What is that information?

PENHAUL: That I don`t know. But of course, the family has all along said that they do believe that these three young men, the last three to be seen with Natalee, do know something and were involved in this disappearance.

GRACE: Well, OK, I`m reading from an AP wire. And it says more than that, Karl. And this has just been released in the last two hours.

"Ms. Twitty said police told her Van Der Sloot admitted to them he engaged in sexual acts with Holloway the night of her disappearance." I`m reading it right here. "Twitty to goes on to say, `I believe if that happened, it was against her will.` They`ve also filed a legal paperwork," Karl Penhaul, "to have access to the case file."

What do you make of this?

PENHAUL: Well, that information we have known for some time, because that information is contained in the statements that are contained in dossiers used as evidence. When we talked, for example, to one of the defense attorneys for the Kalpoe brothers, he did refer to us, and to refer to those kinds of statements, and said that there was indication that there had been some sexual activity in the car.

And you`ll remember early on in the case another of the defense attorneys for the two security guards that were first arrested, he diplomatically referred to fondling in the back of the car, but what in fact he was referring to were allegations of some kind of sexual activity in the car.

GRACE: Well, Karl, we`re going to break. Everybody, we are live in Aruba. But also, Karl, Natalee`s mother says tonight, quote, "I definitely know those three individuals have involvement in her disappearance."

And remember, Karl, Natalee`s family has got their own set of private investigators trying to solve this case. These are the three that Natalee`s mother insists are responsible for her disappearance. Why are two walking free tonight and the other on the verge of walking free? Stay with us.


DAVE HOLLOWAY, NATALEE`S FATHER: You`ve got three kids that`s holding up everyone`s lives, including the people here in Aruba. We ran across a lady that had asked me, "Are you searching for Natalee?" And I said, "Well, yes, are you searching for Natalee?" And she said yes.

And I had a conversation with her, and she was from around here. And she indicated that a lot of her friends and family members were just like us, you know, wanting to find Natalee."




MILLER: There`s a time -- and I hate to say this and it kind of chokes me up even right now. There`s a time when you bring in everything you can bring in, and sooner or later, you`ve got to go to the family and say, "You know what? We`ve exhausted every resource."

And if these things don`t work, I`m afraid that time is very, very close. I`m not as optimistic anymore as I was in the beginning.


GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us.

Straight back down to Aruba, as we wait on key rulings, rulings that could make or break the search for this American girl, Natalee Holloway.

Back to Karl Penhaul. He`s been on the case from the get-go. Karl Penhaul, explain to me again where the searchers were today.

PENHAUL: The searchers were at an area called Boca Prim (ph). That`s on the northern side of the island near the national park. It`s an area of soft sand dunes. There`s only one road to get down there. It`s a very rough road. You can really only get there by four-wheel drive.

It`s where a dry riverbed meets the ocean. And it`s at that area where this thing that looked like a grave, a hole, about four feet deep and about the length of a body with a mound of sand beside it, was found, Nancy.

GRACE: Now, also, on the north end of the island, where they were today, is that where that lighthouse is?

PENHAUL: Not really, no. The lighthouse is at the northern tip, at the northwest tip. And this area is really on the northeastern side of the island.

GRACE: Gotcha. Is that closer than the lighthouse closer to the Holiday Inn and the -- they`re searching on the other side?

PENHAUL: Right, yes. The lighthouse is a couple of miles from the Holiday Inn. And this place is between Santa Cruz and San Nicolas, but on the northern side of the island.

GRACE: Gotcha.

To Joe Episcopo, a veteran trial lawyer -- Joe has just come out of a courtroom, as a matter of fact, trying a jury trial. Joe, thanks for being with us.

Joe, we know that this judge is considering bringing the Kalpoe brothers back behind bars. I think they`ll even be in court tomorrow when the judge issues his ruling. You know, the system there`s so very foreign to us. They arrest people, won`t tell them why they`re charged, won`t bring formal charges in, they let them go willy-nilly.

And tonight, just two hours ago -- and Joe, you know the mother of Natalee Holloway has no goal except to find her girl, her girl`s remains, and to put whoever`s responsible behind bars, all right? I think we can agree on that. She says tonight she knows these are the guys that are involved.

JOE EPISCOPO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think we all know that. The problem is, is that Joran took his father`s advice and kept his mouth shut. And I believe they have some sort of speedy trial rule. In about 71 days, which will be day 116, something`s going to happen. This case may be over.

GRACE: Well, wait, how can it be over without there ever being a formal indictment?

EPISCOPO: Well, because they weren`t able to put together enough evidence to charge anyone. And there`s a time limit, apparently, just like speedy trial here in Florida, which is 175 days, so...

GRACE: Yes, but that`s following indictment. There`s no formal indictment here.

EPISCOPO: Well, you go by arrest actually. Arrest date usually is what triggers these speedy trials. So you can`t hold someone indefinitely in jail.

GRACE: So they`re going to trigger their speedy trial from the time of the arrest. OK. And so I guess the fact that the brothers were released would toll the time on their case, wouldn`t you think?

EPISCOPO: No, I don`t think so, because once you`re arrested and you`re released, you still have that original arrest date. They can`t keep it hanging over your head forever. So they`ve got about 71 days.

GRACE: Well, 116 days is hardly forever. You know, here in the States on a murder case, there is no statute of limitations.

EPISCOPO: I`m not talking about statute of limitations. I`m talking about speedy trial.

GRACE: Speedy, right, gotcha.

EPISCOPO: You know, they`re probably going to get Bo Deedle (ph) down there. Maybe he can help them out.

GRACE: I think they need the dog, the bounty hunter, too.

Anne Bremner, to you, Seattle trial lawyer, tried a lot of cases. Anne, the mother and father hearing news today of the shallow digging, it must have sent fear through their body. Not only that, they`ve got to be afraid of the Aruba justice system.

ANNE BREMNER, TRIAL ATTORNEY: Absolutely. And, Nancy, I think it`s a real reality that they will be disappointed in the system. The prosecutors themselves have said, "Without a body, we need strong forensic evidence, we need reliable statements, and we need possibly a confession to prove our case."

And no body. They`ve looked everywhere. People are getting ready to give up searching. And without this other evidence, and there`s no indication there`s strong evidence as they need, they may be so sorely disappointed at the end of the day. But that is their system.

And I think one good thing from this case, Nancy, is it shows us, in America, how much better and how much of a great system the United States has.

GRACE: Oh, you know what, Anne? I appreciate, you know, the sermon on our system, but right now I`m worried about Natalee Holloway...

BREMNER: I know, but, Nancy...

GRACE: ... and what the hey is going on down in Aruba.

BREMNER: I know, Nancy. But I`m just saying to you that what`s happening in Aruba would not happen in the United States of America.

GRACE: That`s true. That is definitely the truth, Anne.

BREMNER: And at least the only comfort they may get -- that may be the only comfort they get in this, because at the end of the day, they may be very disappointed.

GRACE: God, I hope not.

BREMNER: I agree. But it`s not looking good right now.

GRACE: Hey, Karl Penhaul, do you expect the judge to actually come out with a ruling tomorrow, or will there be yet another delay?

PENHAUL: That`s what we expect. Because, as we know, he received the evidence and the arguments from defense attorneys and from the prosecution yesterday. And what he said is that he and his two colleagues from Curacao are going to issue a ruling between midday and 2 o`clock tomorrow. I understand that timeline could be pushed back, but we don`t at this stage expect the day to be pushed back.

GRACE: And, Karl, we`ve heard so much about this judge, Van Der Sloot, allegedly telling his son, "No body, no case." In the States, even though you don`t have a body, you can still try a case if you`ve got evidence.

PENHAUL: You can in Aruba, too. Because of Dutch law -- and Dutch law is in operation in Aruba because Aruba is part of the kingdom of the Netherlands -- then in Holland, before now, there have been cases that have been prosecuted successfully when there has been no body but where there has been strong forensic evidence.

That hasn`t happened in Aruba before, but you`ve got to remember that there are scarcely any murders anyway in Aruba.

GRACE: Well, you know what? That may be true, but I think it`s going to be hard to convince Natalee Holloway`s family of that. That`s Van Der Sloot`s dad, the judge wannabe running away from the cameras.

Actually, we`re more acquainted with his backside, as Karl Penhaul is chasing him down an alley trying to get some answers. According to Natalee`s mom, that`s pretty much the way he treated her when she was asking him tough questions about where is Natalee Holloway.

Very quickly to "Trial Tracking." The so-called preppy killer -- remember Robert Chambers -- well, he`s headed back to jail. Chambers pleads guilty to heroin possession and unlicensed driving.

In exchange for a reduced sentence, Chambers released from prison Valentine`s Day, 2003, after 15 years for the 1986 strangling death of 18- year-old Jennifer Levine. His defense? Said it was all the victim`s fault because she insisted on rough sex.



HOLLOWAY: The first day, he told his son and the other boys to keep quiet and don`t say anything. He indicated no case, no body, or no body, no case. And then, you know, his actions of running away.

And then he spent about four hours with the Dutch reporters to give a one-minute statement that really said nothing. So you know, those things lead me to believe that he knows more than what he`s telling us.


GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. Just when it looked as if the cameras, the search team, the dogs, the divers were packing up and leaving Aruba, tomorrow, a ruling by a judge could reverse that trend, could be a break in the case for Natalee Holloway.

Very quickly, straight back down to Tim Miller with EquuSearch. Where do you plan to search tomorrow, sir?

MILLER: We`ve got some other areas, Nancy, we`re going to do. We`re actually bringing in a ground penetration unit tomorrow that`s going to really help us. It shows the density of ground, if any ground`s been disturbed.

We brought in all kinds of equipment here. I think now our numbers going to go up to 76, 77 different people we brought in. And we`re just still focused on Natalee. You know, we just love that family.

GRACE: Right.

MILLER: I think we`re going to be announcing tomorrow a fairly large reward for locating or leading us to the location of Natalee`s remains. I think we`re giving up about any hope of $150,000 on finding her alive, so we`re going to take this another direction, see if we can get some more phone calls and help lead us in other places.

GRACE: Tim Miller, Tim Miller, our thoughts and prayers with you to continue the struggle.

Karl Penhaul, you`re going to bring us the latest tomorrow regarding the judge`s ruling, correct?

PENHAUL: Absolutely. We`ll be keeping our eyes on that, Nancy.

GRACE: On all three rulings, right? Kalpoe brothers back in jail, maybe. Van Der Sloot could walk. And the third one is whether an attorney can be there during questioning, correct?

PENHAUL: That`s right, yes.

GRACE: OK. Karl Penhaul joining us. He`s been on the case from the beginning.

Mr. Miller, thank you, sir.

The rest of our panel will all -- yes, sir -- will all be right back as we switch gears. Please stay with us.



DORIS GALUCHIE, ASST. PROSECUTOR: Michelle finally told the defendant that she was leaving him. She went so far as to pack a suitcase during their argument. She brought the suitcase into the garage of their home. She tried to get the suitcase into her car.

She was never able to leave the defendant. She may have tried to get into the car, but the defendant yanked her out of the car. The defendant grabbed Michelle and threw her down onto the concrete, smashing her skull.


GRACE: The lady prosecutor laying it on the line at the jury rail. This is the case of a doctor, a preeminent doctor, a scientific researcher, as a matter of fact, accused of murdering his young wife. He says it was all an accident. As a matter of fact, he even set it up to look like an accident, a car crash, until a pesky little thing like blunt trauma to the head was kind of a giveaway.

Very quickly, to Jonathan Miller with "The New York Times." He`s a contributor with them. Jonathan, we are in verdict watch in this case. Tell me what`s happening.

JONATHAN MILLER, "NEW YORK TIMES": Well, the jury has entered their second day of deliberations now. They`ve just finished. It was sort of high drama today. They came back and they had some questions for the judge. And one of those questions, it seemed like they might be grappling with a lesser charge than murder, possibly reckless manslaughter or aggravated manslaughter. They also asked to see the medical examiner`s report, as well. So it sounds like they`re trying to deal with a lot of issues here. And you know, they`re going to go into a third day.

GRACE: OK, this is what I don`t understand, Jonathan Miller. Don`t prosecutors have proof that he banged her head into the cement floor until he killed her? Wasn`t there blood on the floor, then he tried to paint the floor of the garage? Bloody socks were found. He even went so far as to tear up the bottom of his boots so footprints couldn`t be matched up to him, even leading -- look at that! Look at that, Jonathan. This was the car, the vehicle in which his young -- much younger wife was found. And there were footprints leading, in the snow, from the car to the house.

MILLER: I think the issue is going to be that the jurors are going to grapple with murder or some lesser charges. Now, the medical examiner`s report seemed to indicate that there were several blows to the head. There were blows to the body, blows to the arms and hands. Now, the defense brought their own examiner on, and they argued that it was -- the fall could have resulted in one blow to the head, that the blows to the stomach could have been the result of the staging of the accident. And these were very different kind of versions of what may have happened. I think...

GRACE: She got blows to the stomach because he posed the scene? How did she get blows to the stomach?

MILLER: From the steering wheel. He said it`s consistent with a steering wheel injury, when he put her in the car in the driver`s side.

GRACE: OK, Jonathan, you said that with an incredibly straight face. I`m scared. I`m scared that -- OK, the steering wheel did it?

MILLER: Well, you know, this is -- this is just an attempt by the defense to show that the injuries that were incurred by Michelle were not the result of him willfully striking her.

GRACE: OK. OK. How many blows were there to the head?

MILLER: There were four, according to the medical examiner for the county.

GRACE: Well, OK, you`ve got a skull. How -- what does the defense say, how many blows were there to Michelle`s head?

MILLER: Well, what they`re swaying is that those blows can all be accounted for with one fall, that the...

GRACE: Four blows?

MILLER: Well, they`re...

GRACE: Four blows?

MILLER: Well, let me -- to get somewhat technical, there are several lacerations to the skull, and then there is a contusion around two of those lacerations. Now, the defense...

GRACE: You mean a bruise. A bruise.

MILLER: Exactly.

GRACE: That is a fancy word for a bruise. Just one question. One question. Show me on your head where the four blows are.

MILLER: All right. There`s one going up the side of the forehead.


MILLER: There`s another one going up another side. There`s one on the side and one on the top.

GRACE: OK. You had me -- you had -- the defense had chance with the two right here from one fall. But to then get blows over here, she`d have to fall down and then bounce up and then fall over!

MILLER: Right. Well...

GRACE: Come on! Please!

MILLER: This is a difficult mountain for the defense to climb.

GRACE: So why has the jury got a question? That`s the scary part!

MILLER: You`ll have to ask the jury.

GRACE: OK, let me ask you this before we go to break. How did these two meet?

MILLER: Well, that is a matter of dispute. Now, what they would tell friends and family was that they had met on a beach in Hawaii. He was on some sort of conference, and she was there with her relatives.

GRACE: Oh! I think that`s how I`m going to meet my husband, on a beautiful beach in Hawaii! Sounds like a fantasy! How did they really meet?

MILLER: Well, what her family says is that she was living in the Philippines at the time, and he responded, while he was in North Carolina, to an advertisement or some sort of something in the newspaper, and they began corresponding...

GRACE: You mean an ad? An ad.


GRACE: How much older is he than her?

MILLER: He was 19 years older.

GRACE: OK. Where does the gardener fit in?

MILLER: Well, back in 2003, the landscaper for the house -- he planted trees there -- began an affair with Michelle. It lasted about a year and -- before Jonathan found out and confronted the landscaper. And he also accused the landscaper, and brought in police, of extorting money from him in exchange for sex tapes that apparently showed Michelle having sex with another man.

GRACE: Did anyone ever find these tapes?

MILLER: Nobody found the tapes...


MILLER: ... and police considered those charges unfounded.

GRACE: OK. Very quickly to Joe Episcopo. Talking about an uphill fight here! Of course, obviously, the jury has some type of a question. But come on! Take off your defense hat just a moment. I know that`s hard to do, Joe. But two blows to the forehead and one here and one here from a fall?

JOE EPISCOPO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, he`s going to be found guilty, but it`s not going to be the degree of crime you would like to see. And you know, it was such a sloppy cover-up for such an intelligent guy that it shows that there really wasn`t any planning. If that`s the theory, that this was accidental, and therefore is a manslaughter with passion...

GRACE: No, no, no! No, no! No, no! That`s not correct because intent to kill can be formed in the blink of an eye, in the time it takes to take a bat and swing it back and blow. That`s enough time to form intent under the law. The law does not say intent is some long premeditated plan.

Anne Bremner, yes, no.

ANNE BREMNER, TRIAL ATTORNEY: Yes, Nancy, anything, just a moment in time, premeditation, that`s it.

GRACE: You know, interesting to me, Dr. Patricia Saunders -- and Jonathan Miller, I`m going to follow up on that beautiful scenario you just gave me about meeting on the beaches in Hawaii. OK, Dr. Saunders, shrink this one.

PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: I think this is about Dr. Nyce, his ego and his narcissism. Of course, he said that he killed her in self-defense. Here`s this 6-foot-2 guy with this little, tiny five-foot- something woman, and...

GRACE: How tall was she, Jonathan, 5-1?

MILLER: Two and about 100 pounds.

GRACE: OK. Go ahead.

SAUNDERS: And it was self-defense, and she went after him with a stiletto, a knife which was never, curiously, found. I think this guy was a little bit down. He`d been out of work for a few years, and his young wife was fooling around with a poor Latino gardener. And I think that was a real blow to his narcissism.

GRACE: And this guy is so incredibly intelligent. Ellie, didn`t he come up with an invention or...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: An asthma medication.

GRACE: A what?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Asthma medication?

GRACE: Asthma medication. He came up -- he created an asthma medication. This guy is eminently intelligent. So Jonathan Miller, we`re in verdict watch. How long has the jury been out?

MILLER: They`ve been out since yesterday at 11:00 o`clock.

GRACE: Are they working full days, or are they on banking hours?

MILLER: They started on Tuesday at 8:30, left at 4:00. They started at I think about 8:30 again today. And they`re going start again at 9:00.

GRACE: OK, Jonathan Miller. We hope to hear from you regarding the verdict. Jonathan Miller, with us from "The New York Times," a contributor with them.

Hey, Rosie (ph) and Renee (ph), could you just show me that picture one more time of this victim, a girl that apparently came to America, Michelle Nyce, thinking that this was the land of her dreams and that she was marrying the man of her dreams, a doctor, for Pete`s sake. What a catch! OK, he`s on trial for murder.

Very quickly, to "Trial Tracking." Three-year-old Jennifer (ph) Cervantes, her 18-month-old brother, Brian (ph), still missing tonight from their Arizona home. In that home, their grandparents and uncle found murdered. Police looking for the children`s biological father, Rodrigo Cervantes-Zavala. They believe he`s headed toward Mexico with these two kids. When police went to his home, they found out he had already moved out.


ONEIDA ISABEL ACOSTA, MISSING CHILDREN`S MOTHER (through translator): Please, please return my children. And if some day, you loved me, please return my children.


GRACE: If you have any information on Jennifer and Brian Cervantes, please call the Maricopa County sheriff, 602-876-1011.


GRACE: OK. Wait a minute. Wait a minute! Rosie and Renee, please run those faces again. You may see them sooner than you think. One slip of the tongue in Florida may release -- oh, my stars! -- OK, convicted killers, dopers. This guy here, he`s happy to be in his mug shot. OK, senior citizen felon. Don`t know what her record is. Don`t know what his record is. OK. He looks like the guy next door.

Tonight, in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, Ronnie Grampa, a very dear friend of Wayne Ward (ph). Ward`s killer walked free after his conviction was overturned. In Miami, defense attorney Ellis Rubin, who represents Gorman Roberts (ph). Roberts was the first case overturned.

Why? One word in the Miranda warnings. Miranda -- You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be held against you in a court of law. You have a right to have a lawyer with you. If you can`t afford one, the state will give you a lawyer free of charge. The list goes on.

First, let`s go to "The Miami Herald," staff writer Sara Olkon. Sara, what is going on down there? The attorney general said to the Broward County sheriff`s office, Change your Miranda form, or you`re going to get reversals. They didn`t change it.

SARA OLKON, "MIAMI HERALD": They didn`t change it. And even if they changed it when they were asked or recommended to change it, it wouldn`t have made a difference. There still would have been plenty of murders that would have been thrown out.

GRACE: What was the wording that was incorrect?

OLKON: The form, the BSO (ph) form, omitted the phrase, "You have the right to a lawyer during questioning." The word "during" was not in the form.

GRACE: Oh, good Lord! It said, I understand, Sara, it said, You have a right to an attorney before questioning, but it didn`t also say during questioning. It left out one word, and now killers, dopers, you name it, are walking free and getting new trials. Right or wrong?

OLKON: That is indeed correct, that it has weakened or completely destroyed several cases.

GRACE: I want to go to Ronnie Grampa. He was a very dear friend of a murder victim there in Florida. The killer of his friend is walking free. Ronnie, response.

RONNIE E. GRAMPA, FATHER FIGURE TO MURDER VICTIM: It`s, like, unbelievable that something like this can happen over a word or, like -- the way things are overturned and things, you know what I mean, you just -- it`s unbelievable. They admitted that they`re guilty. They went to trial. They`re put in jail, and then they get out over a technicality. You know, it doesn`t make sense.

GRACE: I`m devastated when I heard about this. I can`t imagine how you must have felt, Mr. Grampa.

GRAMPA: Oh, yes. Yes. The day it happened -- Wayne was -- he wasn`t a relative or anything, but like I said...

GRACE: You were like a father to him.

GRAMPA: Right. Right. And...

GRACE: We`re showing a picture right now of him. And what a fine- looking young man he is, in the prime of his life. Now someone responsible for his death is walking free because the sheriff`s office in Broward County -- who we called, and out of the whole sheriff`s office, nobody was available to explain how this went down. To Joe Episcopo, response?

EPISCOPO: Well, you know, that`s the right. And the sheriff down there was a leader in the legislature before he became sheriff. Let`s not blame the Constitution for this, let`s blame the elected official. People died today for that Constitution.

GRACE: Joe, good Lord in heaven! Joe, please don`t drag in the veterans on this. Miranda warnings were screwed up. There`s no two ways about it. But for convicted killers to walk free now amongst innocent people, like you, like your family, Joe Episcopo!

EPISCOPO: It`s -- Miranda`s only been around for 40 years. You`d think they might get it right?

GRACE: Yes, OK. You got me over the barrel on that one. Anne Bremner?

BREMNER: Ignorance of the law is no mistake, Nancy, especially for police officers. I mean, it`s not just a word, it is the right to have an attorney during questioning. And that`s very important. I represent police officers. You know that. And you know that the police have to come in and they have to follow the law. And it`s really that simple. That`s where it begins and ends. I`m not going start a civics speech again about our Constitution, but I agree with Joe. I just -- it`s reprehensible, but let`s look at where the fault should lie in this case.

GRACE: Well, I say it lies with the convicted killers...

BREMNER: It does.

GRACE: ... and dopers. To Ellis Rubin -- now, whether you agree with him or not, this is the defense attorney that first caught the problem and got a case reversed. Ellis, when did you discover there was a problem with how your client was Mirandized?

ELLIS RUBIN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY FOR KILLER WHOSE CONVICTION WAS OVERTURNED: Well, when I got the discovery from the state, I looked at the Miranda waiver and it just didn`t look right. I hadn`t read the Miranda decision in 30 or 35 years, so...

GRACE: Since law school.

RUBIN: ... I went back and I -- I`m sorry?

GRACE: Yes, a lot of lawyers haven`t read it since law school. But when you saw it, you knew something was wrong with it.

RUBIN: Yes. So I reread the case, and there it was, very specifically stated by the U.S. Supreme Court. When a suspect is in custodial interrogation, he must be told in clear terms that he has the right to consult with an attorney before and during interrogation. If this warning is not given to the suspect, you can`t use his statement in a court of law.

GRACE: When we get back, I`m going to be...

RUBIN: So when I read that, I...

GRACE: We got to go to break very quickly. We`ll be right back with you, Ellis, and also with Sara. I want to find out how many cases this is affecting.

But to tonight`s "All Points Bulletin." FBI and law enforcement across the country looking for this man, William Jordan, wanted in connection with the murder of James Rouse (ph) in Georgia, 1974. Jordan, convicted and escaped in `84, 62, 6-2, 145 pounds, brown hair, blue eyes, a spider tattoo, right arm. Call the FBI with any info, 404-679-9000.

Local news coming up for some of you, but we`ll all be right back. Everyone, stay with us.


GRACE: We at NANCY GRACE want desperately to help solved unsolved homicides, find missing people. Tonight, take a look at Richard Johnston, shot at just 23 years old in June of 1975 on Interstate 40 in Tennessee. For 30 years, police have not been able to solve the crime. If you have any information on Richard Johnston, call the Carole Sund Carrington Foundation toll-free, 888-813-8389. Please help us.

Very quickly, I want to go to Sara Olkon on the case. Sara, how many cases will this decision affect?

OLKON: Right now, we`re looking at about two dozen cases, though, of course, not all of those cases have homicides. Some are robbery. We`re talking -- right now, we have about four murder cases that have been dropped or never went to trial. We`ve got about three that are pending.

GRACE: And that`s, I imagine, the tip of the iceberg. Anne Bremner, why aren`t Miranda warnings -- I mean, it was a federal case, U.S. v Miranda.

OLKON: That`s right.

GRACE: It went all the way to the U.S. Supremes. Why isn`t it standard in every jurisdiction?

BREMNER: Because Nancy, in every state, the courts can interpret their own constitution, their own state constitution, to afford more rights to accused -- people accused of crimes. And so we have variances, unfortunately, throughout the states in terms of what needs to be said in Miranda warnings and other types of issues in criminal cases.

GRACE: And of course, what`s so important here, in my mind, is that in our country, Anne, you cannot go forward with a prosecution solely on the confession of a defendant.


GRACE: You`ve got to have some corroboration to it.

BREMNER: The corpus delicti rule.

GRACE: And in a lot of these cases, the main evidence was the confession.


GRACE: Before I say good-bye, Ronnie Grampa lost his very dear friend, like a son to him. Final thought, sir?

GRAMPA: Well, I just hope they can do something about these laws. It seems like they -- all the laws are to protect the guilty instead of the normal citizen. But I mean, they always find loopholes. Instead of taking care of the...

GRACE: Innocent victims.

GRAMPA: ... innocent people, they protect the guilty, you know, and...

GRACE: Mr. Grampa, I couldn`t agree with you more.

GRAMPA: Right.

GRACE: I want to thank you and all of my guests tonight. But my biggest thank you is to you for being with us, inviting us into your homes.

Coming up, headlines from all around the world, Larry on CNN. I`m Nancy Grace, signing off for tonight. See you tomorrow night. And until then, good night, friend.


© 2007 Cable News Network.
A Time Warner Company. All Rights Reserved.
Terms under which this service is provided to you.
Read our privacy guidelines. Contact us. Site Map.
Offsite Icon External sites open in new window; not endorsed by
Pipeline Icon Pay service with live and archived video. Learn more
Radio News Icon Download audio news  |  RSS Feed Add RSS headlines