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Nancy Grace for July 14, 2005, CNNHN
Aired July 14, 2005 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news from Aruba. A judge splits the baby, ruling first that another judge`s 17-year-old son, Joran Van Der Sloot, will stay behind bars in connection with the disappearance of 18- year-old American beauty Natalee Holloway, and second, that the two Kalpoe brothers will still walk free tonight, as Natalee`s family desperately searches for answers. Day 46 in Natalee`s disappearance.
And today, an eminent doctor and researcher, Dr. Jonathan Nyce, convicted for the death of his wife, Michelle, possibly due to her affair with the gardener.
Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace, and I want to thank you for being with us tonight.
Guilty. Dr. Jonathan Nyce goes down on a manslaughter verdict in the brutal slaying of his wife, Michelle, after prosecutors reveal the petite Asian beauty was involved with the family`s gardener.
But first, live to Aruba for breaking news tonight in the disappearance of Alabama teen Natalee Holloway. Today, a judge orders a fellow judge`s son, 17-year-old suspect Joran Van Der Sloot, to stay behind bars while the Kalpoe brothers walk free.
Tonight, in Aruba, Natalee`s father, Dave Holloway, is with us; and Aruban defense attorney Arlene Ellis-Schipper; in Birmingham, Alabama, Natalee`s stepfather, Jug Twitty is with us; in Atlanta, defense attorney Ray Judache (ph); in New York, defense attorney Michael Mazzarella (ph); in L.A., psychoanalyst Bethany Marshall.
But first, let`s go live to CNN correspondent Karl Penhaul. Karl, surprised at the judge`s ruling?
KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Not really. It seemed to be on the cards. There`s been a lot of pressure here.
Essentially what the judge did, in association with his two colleagues, part of this three-panel appeal, was leave everything as it was. So Joran Van Der Sloot will stay behind bars. The two Kalpoe brothers, they`re still suspects, but they`ll still be allowed to go free. They were freed, you`ll remember, a couple of weeks ago now.
And then there are another couple of bits and pieces there, essentially that Antonio Carlo, Joran Van Der Sloot`s attorney, can still be present during the interrogations. And also, some of the restrictions that were lifted on Joran Van Der Sloot can still remain lifted, i.e., he`ll be able to read the newspaper, and he`ll have some access to TV while he`s behind bars, Nancy.
GRACE: Interesting, Karl Penhaul. Nobody likes to rock the boat there in Aruba.
Let me go to Natalee`s stepfather, Jug Twitty. Do you notice that not a thing changed, this judge didn`t want to tip the apple cart at all? You`ve got Van Der Sloot, the son, behind bars. The Kalpoe brothers walk free. Van Der Sloot can still have access to TV, radio, newspapers, and his lawyer can be there during questioning.
GEORGE "JUG" TWITTY, STEPFATHER OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY: Well, Nancy, that`s the first I`ve heard of that. I didn`t know all that. And that`s disappointing to me.
But today, there actually wasn`t one judge. I think there was a three-judge panel that came in and made the decision. And you know, at least they did keep Joran in there. I think, if they would have let him out, it would have been devastating to Beth and I, actually probably to the whole world.
GRACE: You know what? You`re right, Jug. You`re right. At least they kept Joran Van Der Sloot behind bars.
Back to Karl Penhaul. He`s been on the case from the get-go. Karl, it seems to me that, if you take a look at the evidence we know of tonight, what do we actually know?
We know that Joran Van Der Sloot was making phone calls, cell phone calls, to the Kalpoe brothers a couple of hours after Natalee went missing. Now, if any of the three are involved, that would suggest it me that Joran Van Der Sloot was involved and using the Kalpoe brothers to cover.
PENHAUL: Not necessarily, Nancy. What we do know, and these from statements that were in the dossier that one of the defense attorneys from the Kalpoe brothers had and shared some of that with us, was that Joran Van Der Sloot was dropped off at the beach near the Marriott, according to statements, around 1:50 in the morning.
He then made a phone call to Deepak Kalpoe at about 2:30 or 2:40, so less than an hour later, saying, "I`m leaving Natalee at the beach, and I`m walking home." And then, about 40 minutes later, we know that he sent an SMS message, a text message, saying, "OK, Deepak, I`m home."
And we also know at that time from interceptions that Deepak Kalpoe was in at an Internet chat site at the time. We don`t know what kind of Internet chat site.
GRACE: Well, Karl, my point is, when Van Der Sloot was dropped off, wasn`t he dropped off with Natalee?
PENHAUL: That`s correct. He was dropped off with Natalee. But he said in the phone call to Deepak, "Hey, Natalee`s staying here, and I`m leaving the beach. And I haven`t got any transport, so I`m walking home."
GRACE: Well, wouldn`t that suggest to you that the Kalpoe brothers had already left him alone with Natalee?
PENHAUL: That they do say in their witness statement, that they dropped him off at 1:50. Both Satish and Deepak left Joran and Natalee alone together at the beach so they could go for a walk along the beach.
GRACE: Jug, how do you see it?
TWITTY: Well, Nancy, Karl has been there almost as long as I was down there. And he knows better than that. I mean, you know Joran is -- when he says not necessarily, you know, he`s involved, goodness gracious, Nancy. It`s unbelievable that he would say that.
GRACE: I think what he was saying -- I was asking about the Kalpoe brothers, about whether Joran was involved in using them as cover. I`m getting the feeling that a lot of people think they were all three involved, not just Joran.
TWITTY: Well, I think the world knows that all of them know more than they`re saying. And that`s why this case is where it is today. Everybody is concerned that, you know, why are they not getting the answers? Those boys have the answers. You know, they know what they did with Natalee.
GRACE: Jug, why are you so convinced?
TWITTY: Well, I mean, Nancy, just -- if the story still stood that the night that I confronted the judge, so-called judge, and the son, and Deepak, and they sit there and told me that, "Yes, here is what we did. We took her to the Holiday Inn. Come with me; we`ll show you. We`ll talk to the guards."
Of course, the guards never saw them. It`s not on the video. They say that, for nine days before they arrested them, that was the story. And then, all of a sudden, they change the story. So why did they do that? The whole world knows that.
GRACE: Hey, Jug...
TWITTY: I mean, why didn`t they tell me to start with that that`s what they did? They took her to the beach. They dropped her off with Joran, and then, you know, that would be different.
GRACE: Jug, you`re preaching to the choir. Listen...
TWITTY: I know I am, Nancy.
GRACE: When a suspect starts changing their story up to eight versions, something is wrong.
TWITTY: I know you`re on my side. I mean, know you are. You`ve helped Beth, and I, and my family so much. And I appreciate it.
And that`s what`s so frustrating to my family, to myself, I mean, to everybody in the whole world.
GRACE: I agree with you 300 percent.
And, Karl Penhaul, speaking of changing stories, the latest A.P. wire tonight says one of the reasons the judges kept Van Der Sloot behind bars is because he`s changed his story again. This is the ninth story.
PENHAUL: And probably at least the ninth story, because that`s the other part. I mean, certainly what George says is correct. Some of these three, if not all three, do know exactly what happened that night.
And we know through the multiple statements that at least Joran hasn`t been telling the full truth and far from it all that time. We know that there were at least eight or nine different statements made by him, some of them very significant story changes.
GRACE: Let`s go to Dave Holloway, Natalee`s biological father. Mr. Holloway, thank you for being with us. What is your response to the judge`s ruling today?
DAVE HOLLOWAY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S FATHER: Well, I was quite relieved of the decision, believe it or not. I was hoping for the best and preparing for the worst. And it came in the middle.
And I was relieved that the main suspect remained behind bars. And hopefully, as time goes on, we`ll develop more in the investigation.
GRACE: Mr. Holloway, everybody is speculating based on the tidbits of evidence that we do know exist what happened that night. What do you make of the fact that Joran Van Der Sloot, the judge`s son, was making these phone calls, cell phone calls, text messaging, to the Kalpoe brothers after they had left him alone with Natalee?
HOLLOWAY: Well, I don`t know what to make of it, because really we don`t know the whole story. All we really know for a fact is they left Carlos and Charlie`s. After that, it`s a lot of speculation and a lot of fill in the blanks.
But you know, it sounds like to me that the prime suspect`s behind bars. And as a judge said earlier, you know, common sense is this, Nancy. If you and I were involved in something, and then I come to you and ask you to make up a story about, "We dropped her off at the Holiday Inn," wouldn`t you ask questions of why, if you were not involved in something? Why would you make up the story?
GRACE: Absolutely, Mr. Holloway. Exactly.
And my reasoning, thinking that, just on what we know tonight, when you look at all three of them, why would the Kalpoe brothers go along with making up this story? And we already know from the deejay, Steve Croes, who was released, he heard one of the Kalpoe brothers on the phone at Internet cafe cooking up a story.
This guy got arrested when he went to police with what he knew. He has since been released.
But as a matter of fact, all of those phone calls, all of those text messages, Karl Penhaul, I hope, I pray, the Aruban police have gotten a hold of the records, right, Karl?
PENHAUL: Absolutely. That`s where these records have come from, from Aruban police. And from what some of the defense attorneys say, that is an indication that maybe that part wasn`t a cover-up because they didn`t have time to cover it up. Maybe it is part of an elaborate plan. That`s something, obviously, that investigators will be looking at.
But don`t forget also that there are two fisherman that come forward from that night, they`ve come forward to say the way Joran Van Der Sloot says that he walked with Natalee and left Natalee, they say they were out there fishing all night and never saw any of that going on. So even that bit seems, or could have been a lie, if those two witnesses are telling the truth.
GRACE: Well, at this juncture, Dave Holloway, do you believe a single word Joran Van Der Sloot says, anything?
HOLLOWAY: That`s what I said earlier. All we know is, when they left the bar that night. Again, as I understand, this is the 15th story he`s told and the Marriott story may not even be true at all.
GRACE: Fifteen? Holy moly. I knew of nine. I didn`t know it had changed 15 times.
We`re headed to break. But very quickly, Rosie, Renee, could you show me that one quick piece of video where Joran Van Der Sloot is handcuffed to one of the Kalpoe brothers?
Ray Judache (ph), defense attorney, look at this. Is this not a defense attorney`s dream come true? You get the co-defendants, the co- suspects, handcuffed together for a nice long drive through the country to just firm up their story. This is courtesy of the Aruban police, Ray.
RAY JUDACHE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY (ph): Well, Nancy, it`s certainly not what would be acceptable police practice here in the United States in any jurisdiction, to allow these guys to get together and spend time together, to have access to his father, to be able to make these phone calls, you know, hot on the trail of a missing persons investigation, especially with young men who are susceptible to making stories up.
They knew the pressure was on. Even if it was just a missing persons case -- and I don`t believe it is -- I believe it`s a homicide.
GRACE: Hey, check it out, Ray. I hope they turn on the air conditioning for them. I don`t want Van Der Sloot and Kalpoe to get warm on that ride together.
Hey, Michael Mazzarella (ph), defense attorney`s dream to see your client full access to co-defendant, co-suspect cooking up a story.
MICHAEL MAZZARELLA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY (ph): Absolutely. And, Nancy, the question I have is, how many times prior to this occasion did these young men text message each other and speak to each other 1, 2, 3, 4 o`clock in the morning? I think the police should subpoena those records and see how consistent these stories are. I think it would be telling.
GRACE: Well, you know, the Aruban police are probably just getting around to that tonight if they`re watching you, Michael.
Everybody, we`ll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
IGELLA WERNET, ARUBAN COURT CLERK: The circumstances under which Natalee Holloway disappeared do justify at this moment the presumption that we can speak of a serious crime. For the suspect, it is incriminating that he was in her company until shortly before her disappearance and that originally he did not tell the truth about what happened.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: From what I understand, they have not been ruled out as a suspect. The prosecution still has a case against them. The only thing that, at this point, they are not -- there is not enough to hold them in a pretrial detention. So basically, it`s an open-end for them at this moment.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Open end, up until about 116 days. Then the state must either fish or cut bait, I will put it euphemistically.
Welcome back, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace.
Let`s go straight back down to Aruba. I want to speak with Aruban attorney Arlene Ellis-Schipper.
Thank you for being with us tonight, Arlene. Got a couple of questions for you. Regarding these two Kalpoe brothers, as well as Joran Van Der Sloot, in Aruba, is there a grand jury? How is someone formally indicted?
ARLENE ELLIS-SCHIPPER, ARUBAN ATTORNEY: Well, there is no grand jury in Aruba. It`s a different system.
You are arrested based on suspicion, on strong suspicion, and then, as you know, Nancy, there are several assessments made by a judge of instruction. After, if the person is still in pretrial detention on certain -- based on certain grounds, like, for instance, Joran Van Der Sloot, after a maximum of 146 days, the prosecution must determine the criminal offense that has been committed and make an official summation for court.
So she has to decide whether she will bring that case to court. That does not mean that the trial is already starting, but she has to issue that summation.
GRACE: Now, at that time, Arlene, can the person -- if you don`t have your case together in 116 days, you have to let them out of jail. If you then later get evidence on them, can you bring them back, or is it all over at the end of 116 days?
ELLIS-SCHIPPER: No. It`s at the end of 146 days, that`s first full. And yes, you can bring them back if the case is not complete and, for instance, in this case, God forbid, that they cannot determine what criminal offense has been committed, the case remains open.
And it can remain open for a whole number of years, actually, until the due process, the international rules about due process, up to two years.
GRACE: I want to go back...
ELLIS-SCHIPPER: And during that time -- I`m sorry.
GRACE: Go ahead.
ELLIS-SCHIPPER: No, I said, during that time, the prosecutor can always decide when she gets more evidence to bring that case to trial.
GRACE: Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
QUESTION: Does the prosecutor have new evidence? Was there more presented against your client?
ANTONIO CARLOS, ATTORNEY FOR JORAN VAN DER SLOOT: Not really. Today, there was no really new evidence.
QUESTION: How`s Joran? How is his demeanor?
CARLOS: He`s doing well. He is holding up. He is very hopeful. And, again, today he is continuing to maintain his innocence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Let`s go down to CNN correspondent Karl Penhaul.
Karl, I just heard Natalee`s father, Mr. Holloway, state that there have now been 15 -- not nine, as you and I were speculating -- but 15 different stories spit out by the judge`s son, Joran Van Der Sloot, 15. Do you know what the most recent version it?
PENHAUL: Not precisely. It could be that the family`s got a little better access to that information than even the defense attorneys, because they`re getting a daily briefing by Aruban authorities and the FBI.
But certainly, there may be 15 different statements. Not necessarily all of them represent significant changes. It could be a detail here, a detail there.
But obviously, what it does amount to, as Dave and Jug are saying, is that, why would they believe one story over another? As Joran Van Der Sloot is presented with different pieces of evidence, such as the text messages, such as the phone call records, he then goes and changes his story either to give a little bit more of the truth or to change the story for another lie, depending which way you look at it.
GRACE: Karl Penhaul, what is the significance of keeping Joran Van Der Sloot away from TV, radio, newspapers, as the prosecution wanted?
PENHAUL: I guess possibly to put a little bit more pressure on him so that he doesn`t know how this case is going, in terms of public opinion. Possibly also to add to the sense of isolation that he feels himself in.
At the end of the day, he`s a 17-year-old boy. And the longer he`s away from those kind of things, possibly the more desperate he`s getting to feel. But with this appeal, he can still have access to those things, newspapers and TV.
GRACE: To Natalee`s father, Dave Holloway, joining us from Aruba. Are you still going to or having daily briefings with the prosecution?
HOLLOWAY: Well, we have a lot of our briefings through our personal attorney, Vinda de Sousa. And we also have -- every other day, we have a meeting with the FBI correspondent that`s with us.
GRACE: Dave, you mentioned that there have been 15 different versions of the truth by Joran Van Der Sloot. What`s the latest version?
HOLLOWAY: Well, the latest version was that of the witnesses who rebuked his claim that he was north of the Marriott with Natalee. Those two fishermen, or three fishermen is what I thought it was, had indicated that no one had stopped in at the fishermen`s hut that night.
GRACE: So that was just a crock of lies?
HOLLOWAY: Well, apparently so.
GRACE: OK. Well, we know this: Both stories can`t be true. Somebody`s lying. And as I always used to tell jurors, take a look at who has the most to lose.
Those three fishermen? Did they have a dog in the fight? I don`t think so. No skin in the game. The only one that had something to lose is Joran Van Der Sloot.
Quick break, everybody. And we have invited the Van Der Sloot family and attorneys on, as well as the district attorney, the prosecutor there. They did not want to speak.
Very quickly to "Trial Tracking." Funeral services today for 5-year- old Evelyn Miller. Evelyn`s body found last week in Iowa`s Cedar River, a few days after she disappeared from her mom`s apartment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Despite their heavy hearts, one by one, family members talked about their little angel. Fighting back tears, Noel Miller struggled to find the words to talk about her unbearable loss.
NOEL MILLER, MOTHER OF EVELYN MILLER: She hadn`t even experienced life yet at age 5. We were looking forward to her going to middle school, and prom, and all of the things kids love to do and looked forward to doing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And Andy Christie told Evelyn how much he loved her in a letter to his daughter.
ANDY CHRISTIE, FATHER OF EVELYN MILLER: Now that we have to move on without you, know that we will never forget you and will always hold you close to our hearts. You`re still Papa`s little girl, and I can never stop loving you, Evie. You mean the world to me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Police are treating Evelyn`s death as a homicide, but will not reveal how Evelyn died. If you have any information on this girl, Evelyn Miller, call the Floyd County state attorney, 641-228-7571. Tonight, a $5,000 reward.
GRACE: Eighteen-year-old American honor student Natalee Holloway had a full scholarship waiting for her when she came home from her senior trip from Aruba. As of now, she`s been missing 46 days.
We are live in Aruba tonight. Very quickly to CNN correspondent Karl Penhaul. Since the Kalpoe brothers are out, Karl, are they still considered suspects?
PENHAUL: They are, indeed. Anybody that`s been arrested in this case and then released is still regarded as a suspect. I guess that also applies to Judge Paul Van Der Sloot, as well.
GRACE: Are Aruban authorities still actively searching for Natalee? Are they leaving it up to Natalee`s family to do all the heavy lifting?
PENHAUL: Well, we`ve seen Texas EquuSearch leading parts of the search, but we`ve also seen backing there by police on occasion from the Dutch marines. We`ve seen those Dutch Air Force F-16 fighters...
GRACE: But really, Karl Penhaul, when you say an F-16 fighter, how are they going to find Natalee Holloway? That`s a plane flying overhead, for Pete`s sake.
PENHAUL: Right, but there were three planes. And they were flying in a strict grid pattern there for the space of almost a week. They`ve got some pretty sophisticated camera devices on.
They`re not only heat-seeking and forward-looking infrared, but other kinds of devices on there that have tracked the island in a grid pattern. And they say they`re 99 percent sure Natalee`s remains aren`t on the island.
GRACE: Everybody, when we get back, we`re going back to Natalee`s stepfather, as well as her biological father. They are both with us tonight for the latest on a judge`s ruling today on the Natalee Holloway search.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ISELLA WERNET, ARUBAN COURT CLERK: The investigation requires that the preventive custody is continued because the suspect recently retracted earlier statements again, and that further investigation is required to verify the exactitude of that most recent statement in connections with all the other statements of the suspect ,without the suspect having the opportunity to influence the investigation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Day 46, and today a break in the case of Natalee Holloway, in that a judge demands that Joran Van Der Sloot stay behind bars while the Kalpoe brothers, also suspects in the case, walk free.
I want to go to Dave Holloway. This is Natalee`s father. He`s with us tonight from Aruba. My thought is back to Carlos and Charlie`s, the night that Natalee went. Weren`t her friends concerned about leaving her there alone with two -- with local guys?
DAVE HOLLOWAY, MISSING GIRL`S FATHER: Nancy, I did not have the opportunity to speak with her friends. But later on, I did find out that Joran had indicated to the group that he was a student visiting here from Holland, and the group thought he was a guest at the Holiday Inn. And when they left Carlos and Charlie`s, he left with Natalee and Natalee alone, and they were not holding hands or anything like that.
So what happened next, I can only fill in the blanks, but I suppose that Deepak was waiting in the car, and she may have thought it was a taxi because all the taxis around here, all they have in them is a small yellow tag up on the dash that says "Taxi." And then furthermore, I understand that the Satish boy may have entered the car after Natalee and the other guys were already in the vehicle.
GRACE: Jug Twitty, agree or disagree about the way Natalee left Carlos and Charlie`s that night?
GEORGE "JUG" TWITTY, MISSING GIRL`S STEPFATHER: Oh, Nancy, I don`t know. I mean, I know that she got in the car, and I agree with Dave that - - you know, that all the cars look alike down there, and you can`t tell. You know, we`ve been down there 38 days, I`ve been in all different type taxis, so, you know, who knows what happened.
GRACE: Do the taxis there look like a regular car?
TWITTY: Sure. I mean, they got all kinds. They got everything from Mercedes to -- you know, to Chevettes or whatever. I mean, they`ve got everything there. You cannot tell -- most of them do have a taxi sticker in the window or whatever.
GRACE: To Bethany Marshall, psychotherapist joining us tonight. It seems as if everything Joran Van Der Sloot has said from the get-go...
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Right.
GRACE: ... even telling Natalee he was a student from Holland, for Pete`s sake -- everything has been a lie!
MARSHALL: It has. And the only thread that ties all these stories together is a CYA. He`s covering his own behind, getting what he wants, reaching out, exploiting people. The one thing that doesn`t exist in any of these stories is the truth.
GRACE: I`m just wondering -- back to Dave Holloway -- will the so- called judge, Van Der Sloot, be able to continue to visit his son behind bars?
HOLLOWAY: You know, I`m not sure about that. All I got today was the information that it`s status quo. So if he was visiting his son prior to the decision, then he can continue visiting his son now.
GRACE: Well, also, Dave, it seems to me, for the prosecutor -- there he goes! Of course, once again, I`m more familiar with his backside than I am his face because whenever Karl Penhaul asks him a question, he runs. There he is. That`s the judge, Judge Van Der Sloot.
Dave Holloway, it seems to me that for prosecutors to ask for the Kalpoe brothers to be put back in jail, they had to have some more evidence to ask for a change in the status quo. What did they have?
HOLLOWAY: Well, I`m not sure about that. But if you`ll remember, we had the fishermen, who indicated that the guys were not at the Marriott beach. And as I understand, that`s where the Kalpoe brothers said they brought Joran and Natalee of at the beach. So there you go. I believe that puts them back in it.
GRACE: And I want to go back to Karl Penhaul regarding these fishermen. What exactly was it that they told the authorities?
KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: They told the authorities, according to the statement that was seen by the defense attorney for Satish Kalpoe, that they`d been on the beach between about 12:00 midnight and 5:00 AM, at an area known as the "fishermen`s huts." That`s the area where the Kalpoe brothers say that they dropped off Joran and Natalee together.
Bear in mind, though, they were on the beach. Then there`s a mangrove area, and then there`s the road where the Kalpoes would have dropped Joran. And so they would have had to have made their way through the mangroves to get to the beach, so it could be that the Kalpoe brothers did drop them off on that road but that they stayed in the mangroves.
What the fishermen do, interestingly, say, though, is that sometime in the timeframe when they were there, they`re assuming sometime around 3:00 AM, that they saw a Jeep-type vehicle pull up near the beach. That was the only vehicle that they saw close to the beach, a Jeep-type vehicle.
GRACE: I want to go to Jug Twitty, Natalee`s stepdad. These three judges -- didn`t they have prior interaction with Van Der Sloot`s father, the judge wannabe? Don`t they all know each other?
TWITTY: I don`t know about these three. These are all three new judges. They`ve -- they`ve -- you know, it`s not anybody that`s been on the case before.
GRACE: Well, I`m glad to hear that.
TWITTY: Well, you know, Nancy, the one thing, though, I would say, that, you know, you -- today, Beth and I -- keeping Joran in there was a big thing for us. And we`d like to have seen Deepak or Satish go back in, but Joran staying in there was big for us.
And you know what? If I was the so-called judge and my son was now going to be in there for 60 days, I believe I would try to start talking to people, I would try to -- if he thinks he`s innocent, then he needs to come out and he needs to tell the world and he needs to talk to Joran and prove they`re innocent. I wouldn`t want my son, George, in there for 60 days. This would be something that, I`m saying -- you know, I would do everything in the world to try to tell the world that he`s innocent.
GRACE: Michael Mazarella (ph), a response.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I agree 100 percent, Nancy. These three guys should be incarcerated, squeeze them. And you know, once they start lying, they got to get their lie right, and I wholeheartedly agree with the father.
GRACE: Well, the thing is, Ray Giudice, there`s no way for the Kalpoe brothers to keep their lies straight with Joran Van Der Sloot because he`s already had either 9 to 15 different stories.
RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, with respect to the family, in deference to the family, I just want to say that it may not be a bad thing for the brothers to be out. The police will have more access to them in a more comfortable setting. We don`t know if the brothers are communicating with Van Der Sloot and/or his father while in custody.
And if you look at the overall investigation, the quality of it, that is not an impossibility. You may want to get them out, where you can sit down and talk to them, maybe talk about them turning, quote, unquote, "state`s evidence," state`s witnesses, away from Van Der Sloot, away from the arm of prosecution, and you might get some progress there.
I understand how the family feels, and I respect that, but I don`t necessarily think that having the brothers out is a fatal flaw to this investigation. It may cut the other way.
GRACE: Well, you know, the thing is, Ray, if I thought the police were actually wiretapping them, following them, getting their text messages, getting their phone records, you may be right, flushing them out in that manner. But I`m not so convinced that the Aruban police are all on top of it in that manner.
Very quickly, to Karl Penhaul. Why would Joran lie from the get-go?
PENHAUL: Why was what? Sorry, Nancy?
GRACE: Why would Joran Van Der Sloot lie from the get-go, from the beginning?
PENHAUL: It would be speculation on my part, but talking to some of the defense attorneys, they`re saying, Well, he`s a young guy, he may have panicked at the start. They all knew that there was some kind of trouble when Natalee disappeared, and that`s why they say, initially, that they invented this cover story to put themselves completely in the clear...
GRACE: Wait. Wait, wait! Wait, wait! Karl...
PENHAUL: ... but it could be after that, he panicked.
GRACE: Karl, are you telling me that theory that there was an accident and Natalee died and they panicked?
PENHAUL: I really wish I knew that. The motive here is the one that mystifies me...
PENHAUL: ... and also, these guys, if any of them have killed Natalee, are certainly not hardened killers with any criminal record. So how did they react in such a short time to cover up all these tracks that are defying all efforts to find Natalee?
GRACE: Good point, Karl Penhaul.
Very quickly, to Michael Mazarella. But here`s the thing. Michael, if you fell and hit your head out there in the hall tonight as you were leaving, I wouldn`t suddenly try to cover up the body and flush you down the commode and throw you out the window!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nancy...
GRACE: No! I`d call 911. So why feel the need to cover up an accident, if there were an accident?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Exactly. And I don`t buy it whatsoever, Nancy.
GRACE: I don`t buy that for one minute!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Exactly. What needs to be done, Nancy, is a systematic investigation. The judge could be the answer as to how they got their stories straight. Those phone calls in the middle of the night are key.
GRACE: OK, everybody. Quick break. I want to thank Dave Holloway and Jug Twitty. Please join us again, sirs. Our thoughts and prayers with you and your families.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MELODY RAGENIN, VICTIM`S BEST FRIEND: For me, it`s not fair. I want murder. I want -- I want him to life imprisonment, but it`s only five to ten years.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: A preeminent researcher and doctor convicted tonight of manslaughter, the lowest count possible in the beating death of his petite bride, Michelle. I think she was about 5-1. He was close to 6 feet tall and admitted to banging her head into the floor in some type of a rage.
Tonight, in New York, Jonathan Nyce`s defense attorney, Robin Lord, and "New York Times" contributor Jonathan Miller.
I want to go quickly to Jonathan Miller. What happened in court today, Jonathan?
JONATHAN MILLER, "NEW YORK TIMES": Well, jurors found Jonathan Nyce guilty of passion provocation manslaughter, which is a lesser charge. as you were saying before. It only carries five to ten years. It is a "heat of passion" conviction, which says that if there was some sort of trigger for passion, that, you know, this is then a manslaughter conviction. And the judge himself went to the jury and told them that they could find infidelity as a trigger for that passion, which was very important, I think, when I spoke to some of the jurors today.
GRACE: What did the jurors have to say for themselves?
MILLER: Well, they seemed to accept the defense`s theory, and that was that this was not an intentional killing, that he did not calculate in his mind that he would kill his wife, and that it was an accident. And that was a definite win for the defense in that regard.
GRACE: I want to go to Robin Lord. Were you surprised at the verdict, Robin?
ROBIN LORD, NYCE`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I was a little disappointed because I was hopeful that they would agree completely with us that this was a complete accident. But of course, we were grateful that the most he was convicted of was, in fact, just passion provocation. The most he`ll do in jail, I believe, is just short of five years.
But if I can just correct a few facts? At no point in time did Jonathan Nyce ever confess, admit or even remotely suggest that he bashed his wife`s head on the cement floor. The statement he gave to the police was that this was an accident, that she, in fact, lunged at him and she fell on the concrete floor. There was no admission as to bashing or smashing the skull on the floor at all.
GRACE: How was it, Robin, that she received four separate blows to the head, one here, one here, one here, one here, the other on the front?
LORD: Well, once again, Nancy, you do, in fact, have the facts wrong. She did not receive four separate blows to the head. They were, in fact, what`s categorized medically as lacerations. They were explained...
GRACE: Wait. A laceration is a cut, right?
LORD: A laceration is a cut which, in fact, can be received as a result of falling on the cement floor from a high velocity at six feet.
GRACE: And where were the four lacerations?
LORD: There were two on the forehead, which a forensic pathologist testified that because of the circular...
GRACE: Where was that?
LORD: ... bruise around both of them -- two on the forehead area.
GRACE: Where were the other two?
LORD: There was one on the right side of the head...
LORD: ... which, in fact, Dr. Nyce begged, literally begged the police -- when he was giving his statement, he said, Look, she fell down. She hit her head first on the side of the running board. Go back, I believe you`ll find some evidence there. They never even bothered to look, never brought in any accident reconstruction expert, never brought...
GRACE: But my question was, where were the four lacerations? So far, I`ve gotten two here and one here. Where was the other one?
LORD: There was, in fact, what was determined to be what`s called a superficial laceration on the top...
LORD: On the top of the head.
LORD: There was...
GRACE: Thanks. I want to go now...
LORD: ... no bruising underneath the superficial laceration.
GRACE: ... to Jonathan Miller. Jonathan, remember last night, you told us about the four lacerations to the head?
GRACE: Where were they?
MILLER: Now, this is a matter of dispute between the medical examiner for the state and the defense`s medical examiner. What the defense tried to argue was that the wound that came to the top of the head was perhaps from the staging of the accident. She may have been bumping around in the car. They say that...
GRACE: How could a dead body bump around in the car?
MILLER: There could have been some jostling. And then this is an argument that jurors, it seems, accepted, when I spoke with them. They seemed to accept that some of the injuries that she received could have been from the staging of that accident.
GRACE: Question to you, Jonathan Miller. It was my understanding that, at some point, Dr. Nyce claimed his petite wife pulled out a stiletto knife.
MILLER: That`s correct.
GRACE: And he struggled with her in self-defense, and at some juncture, threw her down on the cement floor.
MILLER: That`s right. Well, what...
GRACE: OK. Because a defense attorney told me that that was a big mistake. Is that what he said to police?
MILLER: In his statement to police, he said that his wife lunged at him with some sort of sharp object, a stiletto, and that he then somehow pushed her down to the ground...
TWITTY: ... striking her head and...
GRACE: Now, hold on. Wait a minute. Robin Lord, you just told me that was wrong.
LORD: What I told you was wrong is what you misquoted before, and that is that...
GRACE: That he threw her down.
LORD: ... he`s alleged to have confessed to smashing her head repeatedly on the cement floor. That is not what happened. In fact, in his statement, he does not characterize it as a stiletto. He said it was a long, sharp object. He said it might have been a stiletto, might have been a letter opener, it might have been a hairpin. It was dark in the garage...
GRACE: Did you ever find it?
GRACE: Did the police ever find a weapon she was carrying?
LORD: Funny you should mention that. First of all, the police never even bothered to look for it. They never used metal detectors, never went out after the snow. In fact, Jonathan Miller himself should be commended. A couple of months after, he was investigating for his paper, I assume, and he went out and found a mud flap in the area and brought the mud flap to the Hopewell police department.
GRACE: OK, thanks for the mud flap information, but I was asking, was the stiletto or knife ever found by anybody? Yes, no.
LORD: Oh, the hairpin was, in fact, found. Funny you should mention that. They never even...
GRACE: I didn`t mention a hairpin.
LORD: Well, I did because that was part of the statement. He, in fact...
LORD: ... said it could have been a stiletto, it could have been a hairpin, it could have been a letter opener. The bottom line is that...
GRACE: She could have attacked him with a hairpin? Is that what you just told me? That`s his defense, that he attacked -- she attacked him with a hairpin and he killed her?
LORD: No, no, no. You`re misquoting once again.
GRACE: You just said hairpin.
LORD: This is not an attack, this is a lunge. Our position was and always has been that she, in fact, lunged at him and...
GRACE: With a hairpin?
LORD: ... he reacted and pushed her to the ground.
GRACE: With a hairpin? You said a hairpin!
GRACE: I heard you!
LORD: Yes, I absolutely did...
GRACE: Attacked by a hairpin! Are you talking about a bobby pin?
LORD: No, we`re talking about a hairpin that was ultimately found in the car, that was approximately...
LORD: ... eight inches in length, which the prosecutors never looked at.
GRACE: OK, everybody.
LORD: They never opened the bag.
GRACE: I`ve got to take a break.
Very quickly to tonight`s "All Points Bulletin." Law enforcement on the lookout for this man, Barron Maye, a fugitive since his conviction on a 1986 kidnapping in Oregon, 5-11, 160 pounds, brown hair, hazel eyes, armed and dangerous. If you have information, call the FBI, 503-224-4181.
Local news for some of you, but we`ll be right back. And remember, coverage of a 25-year-old murder mystery tomorrow, 3:00 to 5:00, on Court TV`s "Closing Arguments."
Please stay with us as we remember Staff Sergeant Joseph P. Goodrich, 32, an American hero.
GRACE: That`s Dr. Jonathan Nyce hiding behind his wife there, Michelle Nyce. She`s about 5-1. He`s about 6 feet. He claimed she lunged at him with a hairpin, and when they struggled, she fell and died. A jury gave him the lowest guilty count possible today in a court of law.
Very quickly to "New York Times" contributor Jonathan Miller. Jonathan, you had a chance to actually have a conversation with Dr. Nyce`s parents regarding some interesting anecdotes about his interest in science as a teenager, right?
MILLER: Right. Well, I`m not sure how much to read into this, but we did have a chance to talk with Dr. Nyce`s parents, and they told us that, you know, he was -- obviously, he wouldn`t hurt a soul. But they also said that when he was a teenager, at one point, they came home, and for some reason, they found on the stove a pot that was in it a raccoon that he apparently was trying to put Clorox on and wanted to see the skeleton. Now, I don`t know how much to read into that. You know, my wife used to snap mice`s necks so that she could do cancer research.
GRACE: Cancer research. You`re comparing torturing a raccoon to cancer research?
MILLER: Well, I can`t say what I would want to read into anything that a teenage boy does.
GRACE: You know, that is very true. You`re very -- you`re correct about that.
Michael Mazarella, in cases that we have covered, when you look back at earlier years on various people that have been convicted of murder, you see certain indicators from children and teenagers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Correct. Absolutely. But not all the time, Nancy. You know that the heat of passion, it`s a not often used defense, and to win it, as this defense did, the jury had to buy it. It had to be viable.
GRACE: Yes. Yes. And Robin Lord, the defense attorney, had that argument because the wife had had an affair with the gardener.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that...
GRACE: And the jury bought into it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And Nancy, that infidelity charge that the judge gave to the jury, as soon as they heard that, that he could use that for the heat of passion, that was it.
GRACE: I want to thank all of my guests tonight, but my biggest thank you to you for being with us, inviting us into your homes.
Coming up, headlines from all around the world, Larry on CNN. I`m Nancy Grace, signing off for tonight. See you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 o`clock sharp Eastern, I hope. Until then, good night, friend.