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American Morning
Biochemist Detained; Rehnquist Stays On; Karl Rove & CIA Leak; Inside the Insurgency; Shark Myths
Aired July 15, 2005 - 09:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: New developments in the London terror investigation to tell you about. A key figure with a doctorate degree in biochemistry in custody right now in Egypt. We'll look at how he fits into the puzzle of this fast-moving investigation.
A developing story in the Caribbean. The second major hurricane in less than a week. Emily now a Category 4 storm, getting stronger, bearing down on Jamaica.
And in Los Angeles, from a grainy security tape, the first pictures of that hostage crisis in which a 19-month-old girl was killed. Police say it confirms their story, but will it calm the protesters?
That's ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.
ANNOUNCER: From the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, this is AMERICAN MORNING with Soledad O'Brien and Miles O'Brien.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Welcome back, everybody. Lots happening this morning.
Also ahead, we're going to take a look at the Iraq insurgency. It's a story that you're only going to see here on CNN. We've got a pretty amazing interview, I think.
M. O'BRIEN: Well, the man claims to be a leader of the insurgency, and this is something that Nic Robertson has gathered for us. He's not a foreign fighter, he's part of a homegrown network of militants, which is interesting, of course. Very candid remarks about plans and methods, that's all coming up, something you'll see only on here.
Let's check the headlines now with Fredricka Whitfield at the CNN Center in Atlanta -- Fred.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Thanks a lot, Miles.
The death toll is continuing to rise after a string of car bombings in Baghdad this morning. Within the past half-hour, the U.S. military confirmed at least 20 Iraqis were killed and dozens of other people wounded. U.S. and Iraqi security forces were the apparent targets in the attacks.
President Bush is expected to discuss the war on terror today and try to shore up support for the Central American Free Trade Agreement. The president is set to deliver a speech in North Carolina at 1:00 Eastern Time. But first, he'll meet later this hour with the president of El Salvador, one of the countries involved in the trade deal. The Senate approved it two weeks ago, but it's expected to face harsher opposition in the House.
Friends and family are preparing for a memorial service for little Dylan Groene. He and his sister Shasta were abducted in May in Idaho after three members of their household were killed. Family members say Dylan will be buried tomorrow on what would have been his 10th birthday.
And NASA says a Sunday launch is still possible but unlikely. Engineers are looking to find the cause of a fuel sensor problem that grounded the mission earlier this week. But if problems cannot be fixed it could force the launch to be delayed until September -- Miles and Soledad.
S. O'BRIEN: Well, Miles knows a lot about that. All right. Thanks, Fred.
Well, there are some new developments to tell you about in the London terror bombing investigation. A biochemist sought by British police has been detained in Cairo. Some of their evidence points to last week's bombs being home made. And investigators have evidence of lings between their suspects and the arrest of eight British Muslims last year. More than a half-ton of ammonium nitrate was seized in that operation.
British and American police have named four suspects, all four believed to have been killed in the attacks. At least three of them are among the 54 counted as dead.
The mother of one of the suspected bombers, German Morris Lindsey (ph) lived in Cleveland at one point. Cleveland, Ohio. U.S. authorities are investigating any potential links there.
The FBI checking also checking out North Carolina State University because the biochemist detained in Cairo once studied there.
It brings us right to David Mattingly. He's in Raleigh, North Carolina, this morning on the campus.
Give us a sense of the -- I guess the web of connections here -- David.
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Soledad, Egyptian authorities this morning confirming to us that they took into custody biochemist Magdy el Nashar. This happened last night at the Cairo airport in connect with the investigation into the London bombings. But a statement by Scotland Yard that came out just a short time ago does not confirm that it's actually him who is in custody.
It reads, "We are aware of an arrest made in Cairo, but are not prepared to discuss who we may or may not wish to interview in connection with the this investigation." The statement goes on to say, "There are multiple lines of inquiry. Some of them may have international connections."
One of them bringing us here to the North Carolina State campus in Raleigh, where el Nashar was a student for a very brief time. According to university officials, he studied chemical engineering as a graduate student for one semester and one semester only. The spring semester, back in 2000.
After he was finished with that, someone who knew him tells us that they believe that he went back to his native Cairo with plans to continue his education in the U.K., which apparently is what happened, because he went on to study at the University of Leeds, where he recently received his doctorate in biochemical engineering -- Soledad.
S. O'BRIEN: David Mattingly for us this morning. David, thanks -- Miles.
M. O'BRIEN: Chief Justice William Rehnquist says he isn't quite ready to retire just yet. Rehnquist announced Thursday he will continue on the Supreme Court as long as his health permits.
CNN's Bob Franken is at the Supreme Court.
The statements sounded a little bit like Mark Twain, the reports of my demise greatly exaggerated -- Bob.
BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Indeed. The reports of his resignation greatly exaggerated.
He went on to call them the result of speculation and unfound rumor. In fact, what he said exactly is, "I want to put to rest the speculation of unfounded rumors of my imminent retirement. I'm not about to announce my retirement. I will continue to perform my duties as chief justice as long as my health permits."
And it is widely believed that the reason he decided to put out a statement, which some might regard as a bit petulant, is the ongoing presence of news cameras out there. By the way, we're out there again this morning to view his departure, which is expected shortly, from his house.
In any case, he is known to have not been happy about that at all, not been happy about all the speculation. Well, all that speculation has really crimped the plans of those who are trying to decide how -- what kind of fight to put up over the replacement of Sandra Day O'Connor.
That resignation we know about. She says she's going to stay on until a new justice is appointed. That, of course, is going to rely -- is going to need a presidential nomination. He is considering that now, has not been willing to tell us a timetable.
And then, when we can almost absolutely know will be contentious hearings, a huge controversy. As when Rehnquist will be on the court, we don't know who will replace that other justice -- Miles. M. O'BRIEN: Thank you, Bob Franken, at the Supreme Court -- Soledad.
S. O'BRIEN: Well, now to that storm brewing over the alleged role of presidential adviser Karl Rove and the leak of a CIA operative's identity. "The New York Times" is reporting what an anonymous source says Rove told a grand jury, that a reporter revealed to Rove that Valerie Plame worked for the agency, not the other way around.
President Bush standing by Rove, but Democrats increasingly putting the pressure on the White House to fire Karl Rove. That sentiment echoed by former Ambassador Joe Wilson. He's the husband of Valerie Plame.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSEPH WILSON, FMR. U.S. AMBASSADOR: I find what he did then and afterwards to be an outrageous abuse of power. And I don't believe that the president should keep him in the White House. I think he should fire him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
S. O'BRIEN: More with Congressman Peter King.
Nice to see you. Good morning.
REP. PETER KING (R), NEW YORK: Good to be here.
S. O'BRIEN: You did an interview the other day on another channel in the evening, and I want to go through some of the things that you brought up. And first, you were talking about in this interview "The New York Times" op-ed that Joe Wilson wrote.
KING: Right.
S. O'BRIEN: And you said his wife recommended him for this. I think we have this graphic here.
He said, "The vice president recommended him. To me, she took it off the table."
And you're talking specifically now about this op-ed.
"She allowed that lie to go forward involving the vice president of the United States, the president of the United States." "Then, to me" -- this is what you said -- "she should be last one in the world who has any right to complain."
I read that as you saying, hey, a CIA agent got what she deserved.
KING: What I'm saying is that, first of all, she was in the CIA and Karl Rove had no idea she was an undercover operative. The point I'm making is that Joe Wilson's report, everything he said was filled with lies.
She was aware of that. And as a member of the United States government, she knows that her husband is spreading lies about the president of the United States in a time of war.
She knew that she was involving -- that she was involved in recommending him for a job which he was denying. And to me, once that happens, it's hard for her morally to complain. I'm not even talking about the legalities. I'm talking about almost like the legal principle of clean hands. She's the last person who has any right to be upset.
S. O'BRIEN: But in that -- but here, you know...
KING: Sure.
S. O'BRIEN: ... let's throw out this "New York Times" op-ed that he wrote. He said, "I was informed by officials at the CIA that Vice President Dick Cheney's office had questions about a particular intelligence report. The agency officials asked if I would travel to Niger to check out the story so they could provide a response to the vice president's office."
In that op-ed he never says, oh, the president sent me. He never says Dick Cheney called me to send me.
KING: No. When he came back, he said, first of all, his report went to the vice president. He never suggested the fact that his wife had recommended him.
He acted as if he was sent over there by high-level people in the CIA. George Tenet didn't even know that Joe Wilson had been sent there. And when he came back his report was filled with lies.
What he never told anyone is that every one of George Bush's 16 words in the State of the Union Address were completely accurate. To this day, British intelligence says that Iraq was attempting to buy nuclear material from Iraq and from the Ivory Coast, two countries in Africa.
And I don't see that in the media. No one's talking about that in the media, the fact that everything Joe Wilson went over there to find was proven wrong. When he came back, he denied his wife had any role in him being recommended for the job, and she did.
S. O'BRIEN: There are people at the CIA who would say his wife -- not only is he denying it, he says the Senate Intelligence Committee is wrong, their findings, that there are numerous reports and also people at the CIA who would say that, in fact, Valerie Plame was not the one who recommended him for the job.
So to some degree it may never be clear.
KING: Well, the fact is the Senate Intelligence Committee did a full and exhaustive investigation of this. They found e-mails which she was involved in recommending him for the job. I mean, this is just one more lie on Joe Wilson's part.
S. O'BRIEN: I guess -- OK, let's do -- regardless of who lied, let's not even do a regardless of who outed Valerie Plame. At the end of the day, isn't this a question not about Joe Wilson's credibility, but about was a law broken?
KING: Oh, yes. And clearly, Karl Rove did not break any law.
First of all, that he would have had to know that she was an undercover operative. She was working openly at the CIA. Joe Wilson listed her name on his Web site as being his wife, Valerie Plame. So there was no secret that she was his wife, and it was no secret she was working openly at Langley.
Now, she may have been an undercover operative. Karl Rove had no reason to know that. Under the law, you have to know she was an undercover operative, you had to know she had been involved in this over the last five years.
S. O'BRIEN: But aren't you kind of splitting hairs? I mean, because the president said, listen, if anybody in my administration was involved in naming this person, you know, I will deal with it appropriately, I would fire that person.
KING: Right. Well, Karl Rove was involved -- he's placed in a very tough situation. He knows a person is lying about the president of the United States in time of war. He knows that the impression is given that somehow this was a high-level mission he was sent over on.
Joe Wilson has never admitted that his wife had -- even to this day he won't admit his wife had recommended him. A reporter comes to Karl Rove, as we read in today's "New York Times," and says, by the way, we understand his wife works at the CIA. And Rove said, yeah, I heard that, too.
Then also, when Cooper from "TIME" magazine call him, at end of a conversation when he was asking Rove about this -- it wasn't Rove that brought it up. It was a "TIME" magazine reporter who brought it up -- Rove was giving all the reasons why they shouldn't...
S. O'BRIEN: He said Joe Wilson's wife. He doesn't say Valerie Plame.
KING: Right.
S. O'BRIEN: And that's splitting hairs -- if he named her.
KING: Even if he had named her it still wouldn't violate the law because he did not know she was an undercover operative. And that's the whole point.
But again, we live in an imperfect world. But Karl Rove, faced with that decision of defending a commander in chief in a time of war against a liar, to me, had -- it was a tough spot to be in. I think he did the right thing.
S. O'BRIEN: Well, we know your position. I guess you don't want to see him fired.
KING: Absolutely not. No. He should get a medal.
S. O'BRIEN: Peter King, thanks for talking -- all right. Thanks for talking with us -- Miles.
M. O'BRIEN: In Houston, Texas, heavy downpours caused major flooding in parts of the city. Streets in downtown Houston under water Thursday. Fire officials were called to as many as 30 high- water rescues.
Power officials say nearly 8,000 people lost electricity. Forecasters say Houston may face showers throughout the day.
Meanwhile, Hurricane Emily is now Category 4 storm, with maximum sustained winds of 135 mile and hour. Some models have her on a path toward south Texas and potentially Houston. That would be great.
Chad Myers at the CNN Center with more on that.
(WEATHER REPORT)
S. O'BRIEN: Still to come this morning, a pretty chilling look inside the Iraqi insurgency. You're going to see that story only here on CNN. You'll meet two men who claim to be part of that insurgency. And we'll hear their reasons for fighting in their own words.
M. O'BRIEN: And New York City's new approach to preventing terror attacks on buses. We'll tell you why it caught some passengers off guard ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
M. O'BRIEN: Those London suicide bombings increased concerns here in the U.S., of course. Last week, Kelly Wallace brought you the exclusive story of a New York City woman who says a police officer boarded her bus and told passengers how to recognize a suicide bomber. You remember that.
After we contacted the NYPD, officials looked into our story. And now, based on passenger response, officials say they're planning to have more officers follow his lead.
So Kelly, you've done some good here, haven't you? That's really kind of cool.
KELLY WALLACE, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, this woman, I think, this New York City woman who came forward to CNN and told her story, and it's just so interesting, because, again, we contacted the police department. They didn't really know anything about it.
They have since identified the officer. This officer did this based on some training he has received. But they were taken by the response of the other passengers, the response of the public. And so now they are saying that in the not too distant future if you are riding a bus in New York City, you, too, could have a police officer come aboard and warn you about what to look for when it comes to a suicide bomber.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WALLACE (voice-over): Susan Stein, a New York City mother of three, was taking a bus home last Thursday morning when a police officer did a random safety check and talked about something startling.
SUSAN STEIN, NEW YORK CITY RESIDENT: What really struck me was that he began talking about what a suicide bomber would look like. And I was shocked.
WALLACE: Then, he got specific.
STEIN: He said, "If you notice someone who would get on a bus in the summer with a heavy coat or with something heavy around their waist, this -- you need to notify the driver immediately."
WALLACE: He then used language new to her, but common to terrorism experts.
STEIN: He used the word "zombie." He said, "Right before a suicide bomber would commit that act, they would look like a zombie." It was unbelievable.
WALLACE (on camera): When people are listening to what this person is saying, what is the mood like on the bus?
STEIN: It was serious. People were serious. They -- I have to believe that they had never heard this before. And he had everyone's attention. He actually commanded it.
WALLACE (voice-over): And so we wondered, in light of last week's London bomb blast, had New York City police started something new, not just doing routine checks...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just checking to make sure everything's fine.
WALLACE: ... but also specifically warning passengers to beware of suicide bombers. New York's police commissioner says no.
RAY KELLY, NYPD COMMISSIONER: We're a big organization. And somebody -- some enterprising sergeant may have given them talking points. And that's always possible. But it's not a policy where he's get on and saying, "Hi, my name is," and look out for this. You know, we don't have that right now.
WALLACE: Still, the commissioner did not rule out such a policy in the future. Susan Stein thinks it would be a good idea.
STEIN: It was a remainder, but it wasn't a remainder on TV with another color coming up that people are just not even hearing anymore. It was a police officer practically talking to directly to you and saying, this can happen, here's what to do to avoid it.
WALLACE: And after a day when New Yorkers couldn't help but remember September 11, she hopes New Yorkers remain vigilant.
(on camera): Do you feel like it's just a matter of time before we see a suicide bombing in the U.S.?
STEIN: I do. God forgive me for even saying it out loud, but I do.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WALLACE: And that is really a chilling thought.
Now, the New York Police Department commissioner, Ray Kelly, was at a news conference yesterday. He was asked, "Do you think this is a good idea?" And that is when he said, "We actually are developing a talking point for other officers to use in this situation."
He is saying, Miles, in reality, we can't do it on every bus. But they're going to look at doing it where they can and where it's reasonable to do it.
M. O'BRIEN: Yes. You know, it's important that they -- obviously this officer had a good gift for explaining things. Because he didn't get everybody into an uproar. Because it's important to give the information out without scaring people too much, right? Or what do you think?
WALLACE: Well, absolutely. And even when I talked to the commissioner last week, he even said that it really depends also on how you do it. OK? And that's why they want to develop a little bit of a script that officers should follow.
But also, your approach. You don't want to get on a bus and say, "Everybody, look out, a suicide bomber could be right next to you."
M. O'BRIEN: Yes.
WALLACE: This officer seemed to do it in a way that left these people feeling not more anxious but a little less anxious because now they felt like they had information that they could use in the future.
M. O'BRIEN: Well, I mean, it's a very useful tool if employed properly. And if people have the knowledge, without -- as you say, without being scared to death, it's a good thing.
WALLACE: Exactly. Also, then, the question is, you know, talking to someone yesterday who said, "I saw someone next to me holding a big bag, where do you draw the line to think, gee, is that person suspicious or not?"
M. O'BRIEN: Yes.
WALLACE: So information to use as carefully as you can.
M. O'BRIEN: All right. Kelly Wallace, thank you very much.
WALLACE: Sure. M. O'BRIEN: Soledad.
S. O'BRIEN: Still to come this morning, grainy, new surveillance tape of that L.A. hostage crisis that ended up taking the life of a baby girl. Can it clear up any of the questions over how police handled the case?
Stay with us. You're watching AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
S. O'BRIEN: Los Angeles police have released security camera footage of the hostage crisis that ended in the death of a 19-month- old baby. The videotape shows the man holding his toddler while he was engaged in a firefight with police. And the images sparked protests in Los Angeles on Thursday night.
KTTV's Christina Gonzalez filed our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTINA GONZALEZ, REPORTER, KTTV (voice-over): You can hear someone hitting a police car as protests get angrier after the release of photos. Jose Raul Pena, holding onto his 19-month-old daughter, Suzy, while shooting a handgun at police. The images from one of the security cameras inside the auto shop where Pena barricaded himself for hours, shooting at officers who responded to a 911 call from Pena's stepdaughter, the 16-year-old you see here being rescues from the line of fire. She remains in protective custody.
LAPD officials releasing more information about the exchange of gunfire that injured one officer and killed Pena and Suzy.
ASST. CHIEF GEORGE GASCON, LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPT.: In the final ound round of events, if you will, Mr. Pena comes back -- comes out to the rear of the location.
GONZALEZ: In that alley, a small armored vehicle called a bearcat. S.W.A.T. is also there, including a sharp shooter.
GASCON: He sees a part of Mr. Pena. It is not clear -- at that point it doesn't appear that he's holding the baby. We can't tell because we only have a partial view. The officer takes a shot.
GONZALEZ: The officers think Pena, who retreats into the building, is injured.
GASCON: They go inside the building with the intention of rescuing the baby. The first officer going through the door that throws the smoke grenade and he says, "I have been shot." He continues to go in.
GONZALEZ: So does the rest of the S.W.A.T. team. A final exchange of gunfire, both Pena and the baby are dead. Also found in the office, cocaine, alcohol, ammunition, spare clips and a weapon which turns out to be stolen. Asking the protesters if they've seen these pictures...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yeah, so what? They still killed a baby!
(END VIDEOTAPE)
S. O'BRIEN: That was KTTV's Christina Gonzalez reporting for us.
On Thursday, L.A. Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa announced four nominations to the Civilian Police Commission, an oversight panel of the LAPD. Villaraigosa says the group will review the LAPD's investigation into the shooting -- Miles.
M. O'BRIEN: Still to come, a story you'll see only on CNN. It's a revealing and very chilling look inside the insurgency in Iraq. You'll meet two men who claim to play a critical role in its operations. That's ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(STOCK MARKET REPORT)
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: It's just about half past the hour on this AMERICAN MORNING. Coming up a story only on CNN, going inside the dangerous world of the Iraqi insurgency.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR Lots made about the foreign fighters pouring into Iraq. We have an interview with a man claiming to be a leader in the homegrown Iraqi insurgency. Pretty chilling remarks. Pretty deadly plan that he has in mind. We're going to show you that in just a little bit.
M. O'BRIEN: We'll hear from Nic Robertson on that.
But before we do that, let's check the headlines. Fredricka Whitfield in Atlanta with that.
Fred, good morning.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks again, Miles.
Police in Cairo have apparently detained an Egyptian biochemist sought in connection with the London terror attacks. Scotland Yard is not calling the man a suspect, only saying that he was wanted for questioning.
Meanwhile, officials say the bombings that killed 54 people last week may be linked to a plot foiled by British police last year.
More clashes between Israelis and the Palestinians this morning. Palestinian security officials say an Israeli helicopter missiles were fired into the West Bank, killing least two militants. No word yet from the Israeli military.
The strike comes just hours after Palestinian leaders declared a state of emergency in Gaza. Tensions there have been on the rise in the aftermath of a Palestinian attack that killed an Israeli woman. The violence comes ahead of Israel's planned withdraw from parts of Gaza.
White House adviser Karl Rove reportedly say it wasn't him. According to the Associated press, rove told a grand jury he learned the name of a CIA operative from reporters and not the other way around. He then reportedly discussed the information with a "Time" magazine reporter days after the story broke.
The man at the center of a steroid scandal involved -- involving some top athlete has apparently reached a plea deal. Victor Conte is the found of BALCO, a nutritional supplements company. His lawyer says Conte will plead guilty to steroid distribution and money laundering in exchange for a deal with federal prosecutors.
And residents in Jamaica are bracing for Hurricane Emily. Officials there issuing a hurricane warning. The storm is packing maximum winds of about 135 miles per hour. Emily is already being blamed for at least one death in Granada. It could possibly hit Texas by Wednesday of next week -- Soledad.
S. O'BRIEN: All right, Fred, thanks a lot.
Let's take you back to Leeds, England and Nic Robertson for the latest developments in this London terror investigation.
Nic, obviously you've been following them. You've also been covering, though, the story about the Iraqi insurgency, two big stories on your plate at that moment. You've met with some of the insurgents, and I think what they told you was pretty fascinating. Elaborate for us.
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I was able to meet with two member of the insurgency. They both claim to be formally in the Iraqi army. One of them claimed to have been a general. They claim to have known each other at staff college in the Iraqi military. They went on to tell me a lot about what was happening inside the insurgency. What they were saying, what their clear message was, that recruitment wasn't a problem, and that they are going from strength to strength.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ROBERTSON (voice-over): Unpredictable and deadly, violence cuts a swathe across parts of Iraq, bloodying the U.S., the country is reeling under an insurgent onslaught. And the worst of these, claimed by Al Qaeda and Iraq and its leader, Abu Musab Al Zarqawi.
(on camera): It is the spectacular impact of the suicide attacks, often directed by non-Iraqi fighters, that can obscure the true nature of the insurgency, a homegrown Iraqi-based insurgency. To find out who they are and what they want, I've come here to Baghdad to meet them.
ABU OMAR, INSURGENT (through translator): We represent 20 percent of the Iraqi resistance, but we represent fully the Iraqi will. We can influence 80 percent of the Iraqi resistance, and we can say, stop. The question is, when to stop.
ROBERTSON: He says, he is a former Iraqi general. He offers a picture of himself in uniform to bolster the claim. Says to call him "Abu Omar," but he won't reveal his true identity. This video, he says, shows insurgents, or "resistance fighters," as he calls them, under his command on the streets of Baghdad in April 2004.
OMAR (through translator): We have plenty of weapons, and money and men, and our belief in God is great.
ROBERTSON: He speaks with authority, welcomes me to Iraq and introduces a friend he calls "Abu Mohammed," tells me he is an insurgent commander, too.
ABU MOHAMMAD, INSURGENT: We refuse American, all American opinion. Their ideology -- election or freedom, we refuse anything from American.
ROBERTSON: Abu Mohammed tells me the pair met in military staff college, decades ago, now commanders in different insurgent groups, part of a larger network of nationalists, former regime officials, tribal leaders and Iraqi Islamists, most of whom lost out when Saddam Hussein fell from power.
Within weeks of Saddam Hussein's toppling April 9, 2003, intelligence sources say his deputy Izzat Ibrahim Al-Douri, met in a car in Baghdad with four of Saddam's top allies. They decided then to activate the insurgency.
Abu Mohammad and Abu Omar were more than ready to take up the call. Weeks after the U.S. invaded, it disbanded the Iraqi army, and they lost their jobs. But they already had training.
OMAR (through translator): Six months before the occupation, we started training and exercising, resisting the American Army in small groups.
ROBERTSON: Some U.S. intelligence sources say there are now as many as 200,000 insurgents. There are still 300 to 400 reported attacks a week. And that each U.S. offensive creates more recruits for the insurgents.
Abu Mohammad and Abu Omar refuse to put a figure on the insurgency. But claim, at the moment, its driving force is Iraqi nationalism. They warn, however, the time to cut a deal is now.
OMAR (through translator): Those who like to inflict the most harm on the Americans prefer to join Al Qaeda. The youth wants immediate result, therefore he will join Al Qaeda to inflict most harm against the enemy.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROBERTSON: Now while researching the story and talking with these two former commanders, what we are able to discover is, that behind the scenes there are talks of some sort going on with the insurgents, an effort, if you will, perhaps to bring on the former Iraqi army element, perhaps bring on board to the new Iraqi government Sunni tribal leaders who lead who can influence, and undermine and undercut the insurgency. So there does seem to be efforts go on behind the scenes, but so far not bearing fruit, and according to these insurgents, they don't want the negotiations behind the scenes. They want them out front in public so that they can trust who's talking to them.
S. O'BRIEN: You know, Nic, it's the insurgents who are taking foreigners, including journalists, hostage. So weren't you afraid that you would negotiate an interview, and it would end up with you being one of the people who had been captured?
ROBERTSON: It's always a concern. Whenever you set out to try to do something like this, that has to be your primary guiding light, if you will. Don't put yourself into a situation with people that you don't trust and that you can't get out of. In this particular case, there was a middle person involved. This person I've known for more than a decade in Iraq. I essentially trusted them with my life before. And in this particular case, we were doing that again.
But going into the situation I think we were quite clear that we were not putting ourselves into a really dangerous position. You just cannot do that sort of thing in Iraq at the moment.
S. O'BRIEN: Nic Robertson for us. You can catch Nic's full special on "CNN PRESENTS." That's on Sunday, 7:00 p.m. Eastern. It's followed by an in-depth look at how the war in Iraq is progressing -- Miles.
M. O'BRIEN: Taking a huge risk to get a story there.
S. O'BRIEN: I know. He says, it's -- you know they minimize the risk, but I'm nervous for him.
M. O'BRIEN: He takes it all in stride, because he does this -- I don't want to say routinely
S. O'BRIEN: Does it a lot.
M. O'BRIEN: That's a brave move, and we appreciate his efforts.
(WEATHER REPORT)
S. O'BRIEN: Still to come this morning, did the movie "Jaws" give sharks a bad wrap? The Discovery Channel's "Mythbusters" going to join us separate fact from fiction, right after this short break.
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M. O'BRIEN: Well, now a story for summer beach-goers who can't help but be a little frightened by movies like "Jaws" and the scene on some real beaches this summer, the scene from that quintessential shark shocker -- remember this one? Ooh, it's just scary thinking about it. Thirty years ago, the movie scared people out of their wits and off the beach. Did "Jaws" exaggerate the threat from sharks? Well, come on, it is Hollywood, after all. Yes, of course. But there might have been some truth to it.
Adam Savage, Jamie Hyneman, they're the co-hosts of the show "Mythbusters" on the Discovery Channel, which launches "Shark Week" this Sunday. They join us from La Jolla, California, with Bob Burhans, a biologist at the Birch Aquarium at the Scripps Oceanic Institute. Good to have you all with us.
First of all, gentleman, shark versus fishing boat. Who wins?
ADAM SAVAGE, COHOST, "MYTHBUSTERS": Well, we actually, in the course of testing, every myth we could associated with the movie "Jaws," we actually did build a 3,000-pound steel canister with a shark nose on it, which we dubbed the "sharammer" (ph). And we used a military...
M. O'BRIEN: The "sharammer"?
SAVAGE: The "sharammer."
M. O'BRIEN: Shark and rammer, together make "sharammer"?
SAVAGE: Yes, exactly. I can't vouch for how good the title is. But we attached it to a rope on the end of a military tank to get it up to about 30 miles per hour in the water, which is about as fast as we posited the fastest shark might swim. And we rammed it into a wooden boat to see. And the boat didn't fare so well, actually.
M. O'BRIEN: Oh, really?
SAVAGE: We were surprised. Yes.
M. O'BRIEN: OK. But would a shark do that, I guess is the question? Would it ram a boat?
ROBERT BURHANS, BIOLOGIST, BIRCH AQUARIUM: It's certainly possible that a shark could ram a boat. It's not something that is going to happen every day or very often.
M. O'BRIEN: OK, well, I'm getting scared now. You guys haven't busted a single myth for me. Oh, my goodness there. In that movie, they had a hard time making that shark work, but it looks pretty real there. What about this whole thing about the drop of blood in the water?
JAMIE HYNEMAN, COHOST, "MYTHBUSTERS": Well, that was an interesting thing, because we put not only a drop of human blood in the water, but also fish blood and urine and suntan lotion and all sorts of things. And the only thing that the sharks reacted to was the fish blood. So you know, it's pretty clear from that that humans are not their normal food, and...
M. O'BRIEN: They prefer sushi?
HYNEMAN: Yes, yes. SAVAGE: I think we're a little bony for them.
M. O'BRIEN: That's good to hear. It makes me feel so much better. This footage, by the way, is just remarkable. When you see them coming out of the water. What's he chomping on there? Is that a seal? What is that? You can't see.
SAVAGE: I can't see. We can't see the footage.
M. O'BRIEN: Well, you just imagine a shark jumping out of the water eating something delicious. What about this whole punch a shark in the nose if you're being attacked?
SAVAGE: Well, actually, we -- we gave our -- we have a crash test dummy named Buster who we have do the things we consider too dangerous. And we gave him a pair of pneumatic punching arms and we put him down under the water with Jamie in a shark cage holding him. He filled his wet suit full of fish guts. But we didn't feel that was good enough when we saw the results, so we stuck Jamie on top of the bait box, and put him down at the bottom with a shark feeding frenzy.
M. O'BRIEN: And how did that go?
HYNEMAN: Well, I was a little bit apprehensive at first.
M. O'BRIEN: Oh, I Imagine that, yes.
HYNEMAN: Yes. But, you know, I'm down there punching away. And these sharks are in a feeding frenzy. And they're like, what are you doing? We're not bothering you?
SAVAGE: You'll notice he still has both his hands.
M. O'BRIEN: So you actually tried this out. Boy, that's a kids don't try this thing at home. So what did you finally decide really seems to attract sharks?
HYNEMAN: Fish and seals and the things that they normally eat. You got to keep in mind that, if a shark attacks a human, it's a mistake. They didn't intend to do it.
M. O'BRIEN: Well, a mistake, but they tend to chomp off a limb in the course of a mistake. That's a problem.
SAVAGE: Well, I think that that's just -- that's a nosh for them. But still, remember that...
M. O'BRIEN: It's a nosh?
SAVAGE: It's a nosh. Shark attacks are down this year from last year. I mean, I think it's more of a function of a slows new cycle...
M. O'BRIEN: Down? What do you mean down? Oh, no, no, no. I mean, come on. These were dramatic stories, including a death, a loss of a limb. We have just recently a girl with terrible damage to her tendons and teeth still in there. It's still down? SAVAGE: It's still -- remember that you're more likely to be killed by a falling coconut or a falling vending machine than being attacked by a shark.
M. O'BRIEN: All right. Quickly, let's see what's going on in the tank behind us there, if we can just see what we've got going on there. You're at La Jolla Aquarium there. You got a shark in there?
SAVAGE: Do we have a shark in there?
BURHANS: We have three species of sharks on display in this tank, and we have a diver coming in behind us right now.
M. O'BRIEN: That doesn't look like a shark. That's an intrepid diver, looking for trouble. Is he going to punch a shark for us?
BURHANS: He's going to wave to you and maybe point out a few sharks that go by.
M. O'BRIEN: I saw what appeared to -- what they call them, leopard sharks? The ones with the spots.
BURHANS: Those are leopard sharks. These are sharks that we actually take people out snorkeling with every year. This is a horn shark that mark is holding up now. You see the horns on his dorsal fin. We consider these all harmless sharks. And to go along with past conversation, there are a handful of sharks that are dangerous to people. There's over 290 species of sharks.
M. O'BRIEN: All right, gentlemen. Thanks for clearing up some myths. Still, the wooden boat thing still leaves me a little nervous. But that's OK. We feel better, right? Right, kids?
BURHANS: Works for me.
SAVAGE: Absolutely you should. We are far more dangerous to sharks than they are to us.
M. O'BRIEN: All right. Thanks for dropping by with those words. "Mythbusters," Jaws special airs Sunday, 9:00 p.m. Eastern time on Discovery. Adam Savage, Jamie Hyneman and Bob Burhans, we thank you very much. And we thank that guy that was in the tank, as well.
All right, Soledad.
S. O'BRIEN: Doing all of the heavy lifting this morning.
M. O'BRIEN: Yes, I suppose, yes.
S. O'BRIEN: Still to come on AMERICAN MORNING, a mother and a daughter and their heartwarming "Extra Effort." They lost a dear friend on 9/11, the Franciscan priest who guided them through tough times. Well, they're honoring his legacy by helping others. We'll explain ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) M. O'BRIEN: Well, not so pumped up people about Governor Schwarzenegger's -- I do a terrible Schwarzenegger.
(CROSSTALK)
M. O'BRIEN: Can you do it?
ANDY SERWER, "FORTUNE" MAGAZINE: No, just read the...
M. O'BRIEN: Soledad, can you do a Schwarzenegger?
S. O'BRIEN: No, just read the script.
M. O'BRIEN: She's going on vacation. She's hoping that if I read faster, it'll happen faster. It doesn't work that way. It's still 10:00.
All right, Andy Serwer is here. Hello, Andy.
ANDY SERWER, "FORTUNE" MAGAZINE: Hello, Miles. Good to see you.
Let's talk about what's going on, on Wall Street this morning. Check out the Big Board. Trading up on the Big Board, up six points at this hour. GE warning about its business, stock is down 1 percent. McDonald's up 2.3 percent ahead of profit targets, it says, it's business. That stock has doubled in past two-and-a-half years.
The story about Governor Schwarzenegger and the muscle magazines continues on the front page of "The New York Times" this morning, and the governor's spokesman Rob Stutzman talked with reporters about the situation. You may remember it was revealed yesterday, the governor's paid by these muscle magazines to serve as a columnist and consultant. He gets a percentage of ad revenues, which could be a conflict of interest because advertisers are nutritional-supplement companies. He recently vetoed a bill that would have regulated those companies.
Yesterday, as reporters asked about that contract that would pay the governor up to $8 million, this is what Stutzman had to say about that.
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QUESTION: You get $8 million bucks for a column?
ROB STUTZMAN, SCHWARZENEGGER COMM. DIR.: You get 25 for doing two, three. I mean, you and I should be so lucky, right? I mean, when he came into office, we talked about Arnold Schwarzenegger's finances will be unlike any other governor we've seen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SERWER: Indeed, they'll be like any other governor we've ever seen. It is legal in the state of California for an elected official to hold an outside job, Miles. This raises questions, though. And I think that his critics will continue to have a little bit of fun with this. M. O'BRIEN: I should say. It's not like he really needs the dough, too.
SERWER: No. It's a stupid -- I think it's -- politically, it's a tin ear kind of thing. I just don't think he should be doing it. But anyway, he's going to continue to feel the heat I think.
M. O'BRIEN: Yes. All right, Andy Serwer, thank you very much -- = Soledad.
S. O'BRIEN: All of us, especially here in New York City live with memory of 9/11. This morning, in our "Extra Effort" series, a family that is honoring Mychal Judge. You'll Recall he was that beloved New York fire chaplain who was lost on that terrible day. Well, this family's transformed their grief into an extra-special effort on behalf of Father Judge's favorite cause, helping the homeless.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
S. O'BRIEN: Kelly lynch and her family arrived early for the 7:00 a.m. bread line at St. Francis Assisi Church in Manhattan. They prepared for months, collecting backpacks to lighten the load for the homeless.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You like that one?
S. O'BRIEN: They came to help those facing hard times, a long way interest their Lancaster, Pennsylvania home.
KELLY LYNCH, VOLUNTEER FOR HOMELESS: That could be me. That could be me. And if it were me, I would want someone bringing me a backpack, or a pair of socks or a bottle of water.
S. O'BRIEN: The idea came from Kelly's 14-year-old daughter, Shannon. As a baby, Shannon needed a liver transplant. Kelly gave up part of her own liver in what was then an experimental procedure to save her daughter's life. The man who counseled the family through that difficult time, Franciscan priest, Mychal Judge.
LYNCH: It was January, it was cold, it was winter, and he showed up in his brown Franciscan robe and his bare feet and sandals at my little apartment, and he blessed her.
S. O'BRIEN: For years, the family held a party every January 29th to celebrate the success of Shannon's surgery.
Then came 9/11. And the terrible news that Father Mychal, who'd become a fire department chaplain, had been killed by falling debris outside the World Trade Center.
The following January, Shannon didn't much feel like having a party.
SHANNON HICKEY, VOLUNTEER FOR HOMELESS: And so I decided that, instead, we would collect socks from my friends who came to the party for the homeless.
S. O'BRIEN: So the family reached out to St. Francis Church where father Mychal lived, and donated 1,500 pairs of socks.
Franciscan Fryer Cassian Miles said the family is helping to continue Father Mychal's work.
REV. CASSIAN MILES, FRANCISCAN PRIEST: When they first came here with the socks, then somebody mentioned, do you have any underwear? And they said, well, no. So we'll come back next time with underwear.
S. O'BRIEN: From socks and underwear to this year's project, backpacks, donated from people all around the country. Kelly and Shannon worry they might run out.
LYNCH: Here you go. God bless you. Enjoy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.
S. O'BRIEN: But everyone on line received what they need and appreciated the family's efforts.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It would be useful, because a lot of them came (INAUDIBLE) bags, you know, with their things in and their hands get blisters.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My bag's been falling apart, and, like, everything's falling out, so I mean, like, this will be really, really helpful.
S. O'BRIEN: Kelly Lynch says she's planning for next time.
LYNCH: We'll go home, we'll start over. We'll start with underwear, we'll start with socks, and we'll go back up again, and as soon as we're full, we'll make another trip in and greet these same great people.
LYNCH: We're coming back September 11.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
S. O'BRIEN: If you want to learn more about Kelly and Shannon Lynch's work with the homeless, you can check out their Web site. Here it is, And watch closely. It's mychalsmessage.org.
And we are back in a moment.
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S. O'BRIEN: A couple moments ago we gave you an e-mail address. I want to show it one more time, because it's a little bit confusing. Can we put it up there? It's mychalsmessage.org. And look at the spelling of Mychal. It's M-Y-C-H-A-L-S message, all one word, .org. So I think that bears repeating, because it's obviously -- they're doing some very good work.
We're out of time.
M. O'BRIEN: Good job. Glad to get that rectified.
S. O'BRIEN: Yes, I'm glad, too.
Let's get right to Daryn Kagan. She's going to take you through the next couple of hours on "CNN LIVE TODAY." AMERICAN MORNING will be back here on Monday.
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