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Nancy Grace
Nancy Grace for July 15, 2005, CNNHN
Aired July 15, 2005 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, live to Aruba. Divers focus on the waters just outside that Marriott Hotel. Is time running out for 18-year- old Natalee Holloway`s family? And are Aruban police giving the FBI the cold shoulder? Just one of the three suspects behind bars tonight.
Plus, the case of rich man`s justice. Multimillionaire cross-dresser Robert Durst, accused of murdering his 71-year-old neighbor, chopping his head of, and throwing his body in the Galveston Bay, head never found. Tonight, he`s out of jail living in a luxury high-rise.
Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. And I want to thank you for being with us this Friday night.
Multimillionaire Robert Durst, once a fugitive on the run from a murder charge, now back in the lap of luxury. A stretch limo picked him up this morning at a federal prison where he served a whopping six months behind bars on weapons charges.
Durst, as you recall, beat a 2003 murder charge, convincing a jury his elderly neighbor was accidentally killed in a struggle over a gun. If it was an accident, how did 71-year-old Morris Black end up decapitated, floating in Galveston Bay?
And tonight, where is Michael Jackson? Jane Velez-Mitchell from "Celebrity Justice" is on the case and she has located Jackson as he heads back to court next week.
But first, live to Aruba. One suspect, a judge`s 17-year-old son, remains behind bars in connection with Natalee`s disappearance. And tonight, we are asking, why are Aruban authorities freezing out the FBI on the case?
Tonight, in Aruba, Natalee`s mom, Beth Holloway Twitty and the director of the EquuSearch team, Tim Miller, still searching for Natalee; in Denver, defense attorney Lisa Wayne; in New York, defense attorney Alan Ripka and psychotherapist Caryn Stark.
But first, let`s go down to CNN correspondent on the case in Aruba, Susan Candiotti. Welcome, Susan. Bring me up-to-date.
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Nancy.
Well, certainly, there`s a lot of frustration all around here by the family, by authorities, certainly by the residents of that island. Everyone wanting to find Natalee Holloway. And from all accounts, there is said to be good cooperation among all the investigators.
However, something rather curious. I`m hearing from a law enforcement source close to the investigation that the FBI, who has been there from the start at the invitation of Aruban authorities -- FBI has been asking for access to interviews, to evidence, to various materials that have been gathered along the way, has asked for it on more than one occasion.
And yet, they have been denied access to that information for review, as it`s been explained to me, give it some fresh perspective, for example.
Also, I`ve learned, according to the same source close to the investigation, that, for example, the FBI has provided a profiler along the way, as has the Dutch, and has given advice, among other things, on how to interview, for example, Joran Van Der Sloot, the 17-year-old son of the judge, and certain techniques.
That advice, I`m told, has not been accepted or utilized by the FBI. Now, how do we know this? Well, we know that the FBI has been allowed to observe interrogations and interviews. They have been able to observe searches. Primarily, they`re not -- I`ve been told not been able to enter residences, participate in the arrests, which is probably not surprising.
GRACE: Susan, Susan, Susan, hold on. Take a look at the monitor, if you can see it, Susan. I`m not an FBI agent, but I know this much. You don`t handcuff two co-defendants together that you`re trying to keep separate so they gel their stories perfectly.
Speaking of the way the defendants are treated, there`s a perfect example for the whole world to see.
CANDIOTTI: Well, certainly, you`ve had comments on that leading up to this, because you`ve seen this for quite some time now. And there are those who obviously don`t agree with that way of doing things.
But you know, we`ve talked to a spokesperson for the government. We`ve talked to, and perhaps more importantly, a spokesperson for the prosecutor`s office to try to get a response to this. And they are stressing only the cooperation, which no one disputes that there is a rapport that they`re working together.
But we couldn`t get a clear-cut answer on why it is that the FBI has not been provided access to review these materials, other than, "Well, we discuss things, and we decided not to." And also, they`ve been told that they can`t have access to it because, as I understand it, the local rules do not permit it.
GRACE: Speaking of diving, also, Susan Candiotti, I understand there were divers near the Marriott Hotel today?
CANDIOTTI: Well, my information is that -- and perhaps your guest there from the Texas company can confirm this -- that a barrel was found floating somewhat near the Marriott. And it was brought to the attention of the authorities -- I`m told the FBI was also made aware of this -- but went nowhere.
It was described to me as being highly corroded, and had some old cement in it. I am told that on the island there is an old oil refinery. So it`s not uncommon to find these barrels floating around. In fact, it was suggested it might have even been an old buoy from the area. Bu that went nowhere.
GRACE: Let me go to Natalee`s mother. Beth Holloway Twitty is with us tonight. As you can see, she is not giving up on the search for her daughter. She`s handing out there handing out flyers, she`s appearing on TV practically on a nightly basis, begging for help regarding her daughter.
Ms. Twitty, thank you for being with us. What do you make of inviting the FBI down to help and then giving them the cold shoulder, not sharing any files, not letting them help with questioning of any of the suspects?
BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, MOTHER OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY: You know, Nancy, it`s really difficult for me to comment on that and to speak, you know, on behalf of the FBI. You know, I know there are some areas that we`ve been concerned about.
And, you know, as far as denied certain participation in it, you know, Nancy, I`m just going to have to let them address that. I just cannot get involved in that.
GRACE: You know what, Ms. -- Beth Holloway Twitty is with us tonight. It`s Natalee`s mother. She spoke out against the release of the Kalpoe brothers. After that, she was basically attacked by some of the Aruban people verbally, of course, demanding an apology, decrying her.
Ms. Twitty, I thought that that was entirely wrong, but I respect what you did, making that apology. I know you want to keep it smooth with the people in Aruba to continue getting their cooperation.
TWITTY: Well, Nancy, you know, my heart does go out to the Aruban citizens. And I realize -- you know, as I`m watching that barrel being extracted from the beach today, this is just an all-around just tragic and terrible ordeal that we are all going through.
And, you know, I think at that point, there was just such a huge frustration level for myself and for everyone involved, I just think that that was just probably inevitable that that was going to happen. And, you know, it`s just -- it`s been so difficult, Nancy.
GRACE: I want to go to Tim Miller with EquuSearch. He`s there on his own dime, still looking for Natalee Holloway. Tim Miller, could you tell us where the search is headed now?
TIM MILLER, EQUUSEARCH WORKER: Well, you know what? We`ve covered a lot of stuff, Nancy. The barrel today was something that information was given out to, and Natalee`s dad asked to us check that out.
I think the authorities were notified a couple days ago. And so we went and checked it out. And we spent about three hours on that thing getting it in. It wasn`t floating, by no means. I mean, it was at the bottom. It was nearly all the way under the water.
GRACE: How did you find it, Tim? How did you find it?
MILLER: Well, we got a -- we had an idea where it was at. And then we sent the divers out there and stuff, and then they located it. We knew that concrete was in it.
After that storm came in today, it was -- the water was real murky. It wasn`t as clear as it normally is. So we felt as though we had to bring it out. I mean, I`d have felt very bad if we wouldn`t have done that. I mean, we tried to uncover every rock on this island since we`ve been here.
GRACE: Tim, are Aruban authorities helping in your search?
MILLER: You know what? We`ve not had any problems with them. They have helped us. You know, as far as the Marines coming and us working together and stuff like that, that did not happen. I think we`re getting as much support from them as we can get. I mean, nobody knows...
GRACE: But what are they doing? What are they doing to help you?
MILLER: They`ve given us areas that they wanted us to search. They`ve given us some information, and they always say, "The area I`m sending you to is part of the investigation."
GRACE: So that`s how they`ve helped you, by telling you where to go search?
MILLER: Yes, they`ve told us -- yes, they`ve told us where to search.
GRACE: Anything else they`ve done?
MILLER: Hold on, my earpiece is coming out.
I know that they`re doing the best they can do on their investigation. And, you know, anybody -- and I`m standing beside Beth right now, and I`m sure she`s not going to appreciate this -- but any investigation when you`ve got a missing child, nothing can be done right enough.
I mean, I`m still upset with the authorities in America on my own daughter. My own daughter is not even on the Web site along with two other girls in Lake City on unsolved murders there. So you know, all we can do is the best that we can do, the best we have to work with, and continue this search and try and bring Natalee home.
GRACE: Very quickly back to Beth Holloway Twitty, Natalee`s mother, when you first saw Joran Van Der Sloot`s father, the so-called judge there in Aruba, what happened?
TWITTY: You know, the first night that I was -- I wouldn`t called it had a meeting with him, but that was in his presence, was on May 31st around 3:00 a.m. And we didn`t have a conversation at that time. He only approached the vehicle that I was seated in.
The first time we had a conversation, of course, was when I went to his home and spent 90 minutes there. And, you know, Nancy, the one thing that I would wish for is that he would step up, and step up, and we`ve had this -- we had a great investigative tool here, this voice analysis system.
It would have just been a huge burden relieved of him if he would have stepped forward, had this voice analysis done. And you know, we wouldn`t still be where we are, we feel, if he would have done that. And that always saddens me that he couldn`t do that.
GRACE: Well, Beth, have any of these people agreed to take a polygraph to clear themselves?
TWITTY: Absolutely not, to my knowledge, Nancy. And that would really, I think, help. I know it`s not admissible in court, but you know, it would certainly be an excellent investigative tool. And I cannot see why we did not utilize it.
GRACE: With me there in Aruba, Natalee Holloway`s mother, Beth Holloway Twitty. Also with us, the leader of Texas EquuSearch, a group of specialists that flew down to Aruba on their own dime, today diving outside the Marriott where Natalee may have been, the last night she was seen. We`ll all be right back. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, MOTHER OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY: I would like to apologize to the Aruban people and the Aruban authorities if I or my family offended you in any way. It was never my intention to do so. And as the Aruban people, they have been extremely kind and generous and especially supportive of myself and my family during this tragedy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That is Natalee Holloway`s mother. She has been in Aruba since her daughter went missing, fighting every day to bring her girl home, to find her. When she criticized part of the investigation, she was attacked verbally there in Aruba.
She`s there everyday looking house-to-house, literally looking for her daughter, and then had to give that apology to Aruban citizens.
Very quickly to Susan Candiotti, Susan, what has become of Aruban tourism?
CANDIOTTI: What has the what, Nancy? I`m sorry...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Aruban tourism. .
CANDIOTTI: The effect on it?
GRACE: Yes.
CANDIOTTI: Well, according to them down there, they seem to -- I think by showing, by putting their best foot forward, to show that they`re trying to find Natalee, there is the hope that there will not have -- there will not be a detrimental effect on tourism.
I certainly -- we still hear about people going down there. We`re not hearing of anyone canceling their plans for their trips. I`m sure that may be happening. But overall, I think they feel as though, because they are trying to show the world that they`re trying to do the best they can to find her, that there won`t be any ill effect.
GRACE: Alan Ripka, let`s get real, all right? You`re on the other side of the fence from me. There`s no two ways about it, you and Lisa Wayne. You`re defense lawyers; I`m a former prosecutor.
But let`s just look at the way this investigation has gone, all right? There was an alleged confession, and they said no, that didn`t happen. Then they said that they had found blood in -- blood, possibly Natalee`s. No, it turned out to be a dog`s blood.
Today, we learned they found bones. Guess what? It was a donkey`s bones. They didn`t seize the car Natalee had been in. They lost precious time. They are not getting records from cell phones, doing wire taps, nothing. It`s been one bungle after the next, Alan.
ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, that may be true, but apparently, even with those bungles, they do not have enough evidence, nor have they found enough evidence, to hold -- excuse me, not to hold but to prosecute these people for this murder.
GRACE: Well, hold on. The judge`s son`s still behind bars.
RIPKA: Well, he may still be behind bars, but we haven`t heard of any evidence, other than some light suspicion that`s going to connect him to this murder or get them a conviction in this crime.
GRACE: Well, I don`t know about you, Beth Holloway Twitty, but when someone changes their story somewhere between nine and 15 times, it seems to me they`re hiding something.
TWITTY: Oh, Nancy, I mean, absolutely. I mean, you should never have to change your story, never. Absolutely.
GRACE: You know? I agree.
And Lisa Wayne, here`s the reality. When you`ve got a defendant or suspect -- that you`re seeing video of the search for Natalee Holloway right now for any clue there along the beach -- Lisa Wayne, say you`ve got a guy behind bars under suspicion.
And he adds to his story, OK, that`s not that unusual. The more you think about something that happened, you may want to add some facts that you recall. But to downright change your story, Lisa Wayne, it stinks. I can smell it a thousand miles away.
LISA WAYNE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: And we`re at a disadvantage, Nancy, because we don`t know exactly what the changes are to. I mean, if the changes are over time to little things, it doesn`t matter. If it`s to a real issue or something that really pertains to where she is, what`s happened to Natalee, then that is a bigger deal.
And it appears -- we just don`t know where the consistencies are. Are they to little things or to big things that ultimately make a difference in this case? We`re speculating. We aren`t privy to what`s going on.
GRACE: I know a few of them. I know a few of the inconsistencies, Lisa. Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS LEJUEZ, ARUBAN ATTORNEY: It`s the burden of proof during this pretrial detention. Of course, if you go to trial, the burden of proof would be much higher.
There you have to prove beyond reasonable doubt to a trial judge that the crime has been committed and that this person has committed that crime. That`s a much higher burden of proof. Right now, to keep someone in pretrial detention, much lower burden of proof is sufficient.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Here in the studio with me, psychologist, psychotherapist Caryn Stark.
These are a few of the discrepancies in Van Der Sloot`s story that we know of. First of all, he and the Kalpoe brothers cooked up the story that they had all three dropped Natalee off at Holiday Inn where she was staying, watched her walk in, stumble, and then two black security guards came to assist her and they drove off, and never saw her again.
That led to the wrongful arrest of two black security guards that had nothing to do with this case. Then Van Der Sloot changed his story to he left her alone at the beach at around 3:00 a.m. She decided she wanted to be alone, and he left her out there. Then he stated he left her at the Marriott. So far, I know of three different major inconsistencies.
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: And that`s so indicative of someone who`s culpable, Nancy. We really have to suspect that something is wrong with this man because he keeps changing his story to fit the situation.
So when one doesn`t work, he changes it to fit another. And that is very characteristic of someone who is capable of committing a crime, to lie.
GRACE: Is it true, Susan Candiotti, reports came to the states that Van Der Sloot`s father said, "No body, no case"?
CANDIOTTI: Yes, I mean, that`s what we`re hearing from our sources and have heard that for quite some time now repeatedly. Remember, they had that time period where they hadn`t been picked up.
So there would have been an opportunity for the father to get together with his son, naturally, and the Kalpoe brothers to have a discussion.
GRACE: There he is, Susan.
CANDIOTTI: And that`s what we have heard was said.
GRACE: That`s really a better shot of his rear end, as I always say, because he runs whenever anybody asks him a question.
Beth Holloway Twitty, I think Susan`s right. What do you know of the judge telling his son, "No body, no case"?
TWITTY: You know, I think that I had heard that -- I think that came off maybe a Dutch television program. I`m not certain of that, Nancy.
But, of course, that is a huge concern of mine, because I go back to the beginning of the investigation. And, you know, I think of what the -- all four of the individuals are involved in, when you`re involved in obstruction of justice, and lying to authorities, and implicating innocent people. I mean, I certainly wish those were enforceable laws to some degree, because I feel that all four of those were occurring early on.
GRACE: With us is Natalee`s mother, Beth Holloway Twitty. Tim Miller, the leader of EquuSearch there trying to find Natalee, and of course CNN`s Susan Candiotti. She`s been on the case from the get-go.
We extended invitations to the families of Joran Van Der Sloot, the Kalpoe brothers. They declined to speak. The prosecution`s keeping their cards close to the vest, as well, tonight.
Quickly, to "Trial Tracking." A memorial for Dylan Groene planned for Saturday, the day Dylan would have turned 10 years old. Dylan and his little sister, Shasta, abducted from their Idaho home May 16th, the same day their brother, mother, and boyfriend murdered.
Convicted sex offender Joseph Edward Duncan III stands charged with kidnap and three counts of murder.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We the jury find the defendant, Robert Durst, not guilty.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Robert Durst, a multimillionaire and cross-dresser, beat a murder charge. There it is. He was just as surprised as everybody else was.
What? Huh? I`m not guilty? Oh, OK!
Listen, his victim that he admitted to killing had been decapitated. The head was never recovered. The body of 71-year-old Morris Black was found floating by a little boy in Galveston Bay. He beat the rap, but he`s a suspect, a person of interest, let me say in two other murders.
Tonight, in New York, investigative reporter Jane Velez Mitchell. Joining us by phone from Allentown, Pennsylvania, Matt Birkbeck. He`s the author of "A Deadly Secret: The Strange Disappearance of Kathy Durst."
I want to quickly go to Matt Birkbeck. Matt, what do you make of Durst going up the elevator right now to his luxury high-rise?
MATT BIRKBECK, AUTHOR: Well, I`m sure, you know, he`ll be enjoying himself. And he`ll have better digs than he`s had for the past several years, being in prison in New Jersey and in Texas.
GRACE: So, Matt, were you stunned when the jury let Durst go after he decapitated his victim, an elderly gentleman?
BIRKBECK: Actually, I wasn`t, Nancy. And I`ll tell you why. I was there for the beginning of the trial. And I was watching the defense team of Victor Garren and Company (ph) and how smooth they were, and, I hate to say it, but the Laurel and Hardy team of the prosecution. I don`t want to disparage those guys, but they were just incompetent.
GRACE: But, Matt, he chopped the guy`s head off. How good do you have to be?
(CROSSTALK)
BIRKBECK: Well, I actually turned to another reporter, Rick Penshick (ph) from the "Daily News." I said to him -- I said, "I bet you he`s going to get off." And lo and behold, several weeks later, that`s exactly what happened.
GRACE: Matt Birkbeck, don`t move. The author of "A Deadly Secret," the strange disappearance of another victim, Kathy Durst. Quick break everybody.
We at NANCY GRACE, as you know, want very much to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Take a look at Tracy Holloway, found murdered just around her 30th birthday, June `97, in the Arkansas home she shared with her 2-year-old little boy.
If you have any information on Tracy Holloway, call Carole Sund Carrington toll-free, 888-813-8389. Please help us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KURT SISTRUNK, GALVESTON COUNTY DA: If Morris Black was here right now, he`d be saying, I`m thinking, two words, two words, Robert Durst, and one of them`s bull! One of them`s bull! He`d probably say it that loud, too.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That`s a technical legal phrase we often use in a court of law when we smell a stinky defense. But guess what? It worked for Durst, a multi-millionaire who was actually caught by police swiping, stealing a sub sandwich dressed as a deaf-mute woman. I know, it`s hard to get your mind around that one, but that is a fact.
Is that not a fact, Matt Birkbeck? Isn`t that how he was arrested?
MATT BIRKBECK, WROTE BOOK ON ROBERT DURST: That`s how he was arrested. You know, Nancy, what people don`t understand is that, you know, prior to everything that happened with Morris Black, Robert Durst had been doing some pretty bizarre things for a very long time. For more than a decade, he`d been stealing identities and living surreptitiously in different cities across the country.
GRACE: Why?
BIRKBECK: So you know, it was nothing -- the Robert Durst that we saw that day when he was arrested was very much the Robert Durst as he had been the previous 10 years or even longer.
GRACE: Why was he assuming identities and living all over the country?
BIRKBECK: Well, that`s the big question. You`re talking about a guy that basically faded out of view after his wife had disappeared in 1982. And then in doing the investigation for the book and reporting the story for "People" magazine and for "Reader`s Digest," you know, we came upon these different identities that he had been using. He had been stealing Social Security numbers. He had stealing different names in more than a dozen different states. He even used Kathie Durst`s name in 2000 in San Francisco, and she`d been -- you know, she`s been missing since 1982.
So I mean, given his history and given what we know about him, I guess you can put two plus two together and kind of figure what he`s been doing. At least, that`s what law enforcement is doing.
GRACE: When you take a look at Durst, I mean, whoever is around him better go hide under the bed. His wife went missing, never seen again, last known with him. Then his friend, a very dear friend of his wife`s, Susan Berman, ends up murdered execution-style in her home. Wasn`t he loaning her money?
BIRKBECK: He had lent her money. I mean, they had been -- they had been best friends for a very long time, and it`s now believed that he had confided to her what happened to Kathie Durst. What`s interesting is that Susan Berman died three weeks -- or actually, four weeks after news of the investigation, the new investigation into her disappearance, Kathie`s disappearance, had been publicized. That`s when Durst, three days later, had gone to Galveston, and then three weeks later from that, Susan Berman was found dead.
GRACE: Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOEL BENNETT, PROSECUTOR: The fact that Robert Durst bought the Green Thumb (ph) bowsaw, 21-inch, at least five days prior to Morris Black being shot, convinces you beyond a reasonable doubt that Robert Durst murdered Morris Black. That`s all that it takes. It`s that simple.
DICK DEGUERIN, LEAD DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Some experience in their lifetime or know someone who`s had some experience in their lifetime with a trauma so horrible that they block, that they don`t remember. Bob`s memory of the dismemberment is spotty, at best. He says, I was looking on it as if it were a dream, as if it was someone else. I was watching it happen. It was like a sea of blood, like looking through a bloody glass.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK, Alan Ripka, you`ve represented a lot of people on trial for murder. Why is it -- he shoots the guy. He kills the guy, and suddenly, it`s all a big dream. And as soon as he chops the guy`s head off and puts the rest of his body in Galveston Bay, he snaps back to consciousness. Why does everything get blurry around the time of the murder?
ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, obviously, this is a traumatic event, and...
GRACE: Oh, yes, for Morris Black!
RIPKA: Well, you know something, though? You know, Nancy, this jury heard everything you know and more. And this gentleman obviously was acting in self-defense, and when something like this is going on and you have this kind of blood, why is it so far-fetched that he would block it out through this traumatic experience? In fact, many people do, and that`s why the jury believed it and that`s why they didn`t convict him.
GRACE: Well, Lisa Wayne, all I know is if you and I somehow got into a struggle in the lobby tonight and, you know, a gun went off in your pocketbook and shot you, I promise you, I will not chop your head off and throw your body in the Hudson River, OK? I`ll call 911. Promise, Lisa! So what explanation...
LISA WAYNE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That makes me sleep easier.
GRACE: Feel better?
(LAUGHTER)
GRACE: So Lisa, what`s the explanation for Durst?
WAYNE: Well, you know, I think you got to remember, Nancy, this, OK? Grisly facts, an oddball kind of guy and this kind of scenario, you know, that doesn`t naturally add up to first degree murder. And I remember these jurors talking. They were angry because this prosecution team was very cocky that they were going to get premeditated intentional murder and they did not submit lesser instructions. And they were angry about it.
So you know, you can`t talk about, you know, Dick DeGuerin and they were smooth and all of that, because juries don`t walk people because they like defense lawyers, they walk people because there`s no evidence.
GRACE: Well, all I know...
WAYNE: The lack of evidence is reasonable doubt.
GRACE: Lisa...
WAYNE: And they did the right thing.
GRACE: ... he admitted to chopping the guy`s head off!
WAYNE: After the...
GRACE: I think that`s...
WAYNE: Afterwards.
GRACE: Oh, OK.
WAYNE: That`s after the fact. I mean, if he had killed him, strangled him and then chopped his head off, that would clearly be evidence of intent.
GRACE: OK. All right. Take a listen to this...
WAYNE: But that`s not what happened.
GRACE: ... speaking of the jurors.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We can`t convict someone on our thoughts or what we think or what we perceive or what we speculate. We can`t do that. We went on the facts that was presented to us from the prosecution. We could not convict him. He is not guilty.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There were people that cried. There were people that fussed and argued. My stomach is still knotted up. But we did the best with what we had.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: The guy`s head was chopped off.
(LAUGHTER)
GRACE: I guess her stomach is knotted up. She let a killer walk free!
Caryn Stark, let`s talk about something that Matt Birkbeck said earlier. This guy assuming all the aliases -- you know, he`s got three dead bodies floating around in his history, and he`s stealing a sandwich dressed as a deaf-mute woman. Why?
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, that`s part of his illness, Nancy, whatever is wrong with him. When you steal and you have that much money, it really isn`t about needing to have that sandwich, it`s about feeling like he`s empty inside. It`s like stealing love, stealing attention. And he has a lot of problems, this guy.
GRACE: With all that money, and he has to steal a sub sandwich?
STARK: It had nothing to do with money. Look at the way he`s running from place to place and living as a hobo and a deaf-mute.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Why?
STARK: That`s part of his mental illness. That`s what people do who are running from the law, who commit crimes, who are unstable. This is not a normal person the way that you and I would imagine.
GRACE: With that, I agree with you. Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DEGUERIN: Bob Durst dismembered Morris Black after he was dead, disposed of the body and ran not once but twice. That`s pretty bad, and we recognized that problem from the beginning. But from the beginning, we could see -- and now we`ve brought to you -- the commonsense explanation that some of you in jury selection suggested to us that you already knew: panic.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK, the whole floor is laughing. Everybody. And this has got to be exactly what the jury was doing. Everybody on this floor was laughing when he said, yes, we knew there was a problem. Yes, the victim had his head chopped off.
You know, Jane Velez-Mitchell with "Celebrity Justice," I know you thought you saw it all on the Michael Jackson case. So how do you compare this?
JANE-VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": You know, the jurors sound very similar to the jurors in the Jackson case. Well, we thought, we had a feeling, but we can`t act on a feeling. And when I hear all this, I think about the defendant after defendant after defendant in Los Angeles, young, minority, who go into court with public defenders, who get sentenced one after the other. And nobody`s looking, nobody`s listening. And then this guy with all this money...
GRACE: And nobody`s feeling sick and confused, either.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Exactly. And this guy, with all his money, kills a guy, chops him up, throws him in Galveston Bay, goes on the lam with guns, shoplifts, is caught eating a sandwich, finally goes on trial and says, Oh, it was all an accident and I panicked, and the jury believes him because they have smooth operators doing the talking for them that can explain away the most bizarre behavior on earth, and they buy it.
GRACE: Well, I`ve got to tell you something, Matt Birkbeck. DeGuerin is one sharp cookie. That was the defense attorney in this case. Man, he was between a rock and a hard spot, Matt. But I want to go back. Everybody, Matt Birkbeck is with us. He`s the author of "A Deadly Secret: The Strange Disappearance of Kathie Durst." Tell me about the disappearance of his wife, Kathie Durst, so many, many years ago. No one has ever been brought to justice on that.
BIRKBECK: Well, she -- they had married in the early 1970s, and as the marriage progressed, there was a lot of violence, which ultimately ended up with severe beatings. She actually had to go to the hospital about a month before she disappeared. She was going to medical school. She was actually planning on divorcing him and leaving him. He apparently had a problem with that.
She was at a party one night at a friend`s house. And there were so many different stories that have been told about what actually happened, but in reality, she was prompted by a friend to go confront Bobby, tell him she wanted a divorce. She did go back. Unfortunately, she had drank a lot of wine and had -- did some drugs, too. So by the time she got there, there was a vicious argument. And Durst even says it -- and this goes back to news clips 20 years ago -- and she was gone and she was never seen again.
Before he even reported her missing, he was subleasing an apartment she had. He was throwing her clothes out. He was basically getting rid of every memory of her. And it was only after prodding of a friend that he actually had to report her disappearance to the police.
And these are questions that have dogged him for years as to what happened to Kathie. He shut down three months after she disappeared, in items of not talking to the police. They wanted to quiz him some more. And he subsequently, you know, lived this bizarre lifestyle the next 15, 20 years.
GRACE: As a nomad.
BIRKBECK: As a nomad. I mean...
GRACE: With me is Matt Birkbeck, the author of "A Deadly Secret: The Strange Disappearance of Kathie Durst."
Update, Durst just landing at the Houston airport. He`s in a lounge there the last 20 minutes, waiting to go to his highrise. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The people of the state of California, plaintiff, versus Michael Joe Jackson, defendant, count one verdict, not guilty. Count two verdict, not guilty. Not -- not -- not -- not -- not -- not -- not guilty.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We abbreviated that. Not guilty on all counts.
Welcome back, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us as we head into the weekend.
Jane Velez-Mitchell, where the hey is Michael Jackson?
(LAUGHTER)
GRACE: Last I heard, he was living in a -- literally in a palace in Bahrain.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And that`s what we hear. Of course, when we last left off about a month ago, he was found not guilty. We saw him leaving court. He was frail. Our sources tell us he was down to 94 pounds. That is dangerously thin. They went into seclusion at Neverland. About two weeks ago, he reportedly went to Bahrain, this very tiny, very rich principality in the Persian Gulf area. He is a guest of the son of the king. He is living at the royal palace.
GRACE: Whoa! Whoa! Wait, wait! Please don`t tell me the son of the king is 12 years old.
(LAUGHTER)
GRACE: How old is the son of the king?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I think he is of age. In fact, he may be there to search for some deep pockets to get him out of some of his financial problems and his legal troubles. What better place to go than the Middle East to get some money?
GRACE: Is it true that he only took two of his children?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: At least two of his children, is what we`re hearing, and maybe it was the two older children and he left Blanket, the baby, behind, because that`s a long trip.
GRACE: Are you really calling the child Blanket?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I am.
GRACE: You are? OK.
(LAUGHTER)
GRACE: Now, is Neverland up for sale?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I think that with Michael Jackson`s financial situation, ultimately, it may have to be up for sale if he doesn`t find a way to rectify his problems. That rumor surfaced repeatedly during the trial, and every single time, his publicist got up there and said, No, it`s not for sale. But he has to come up with some money.
GRACE: A lot of money.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And of course, he`s just been sued now for $48 million from a financial company that claims it came up with many, many millions, more than $50 million, for him, and that they`re owed a finder`s fee of 9 percent, which they calculate to be $40-some million.
GRACE: And why is Jackson headed back to court next week? I would think he would run from the courthouse!
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I don`t know if he himself is going to be there, but his team is going to be there, and they want the stuff back that was seized during the 2003 raid of Neverland, and the very infamous -- drumroll, please -- photographs of Michael Jackson`s private parts.
GRACE: Now, remember, we`re talking about the `93 accuser and Jackson, who drew a very accurate picture of Jackson`s genitals that matched up, apparently, to photos taken when he came back in the country. So Jackson wants the penis photos back.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And DA Tom Sneddon wants to keep them.
GRACE: Because?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Frankly, I don`t know why.
(CROSSTALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: There`s a possibility of another investigation down the road if he gets into another legal jam. But it`s certainly a very -- well, it`s a bizarre case and another bizarre twist, an argument over photos...
GRACE: To Alan Ripka...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... of private parts.
GRACE: To Alan Ripka. Does he have art to get back state`s evidence?
RIPKA: Absolutely. The case is over. He`s found not guilty.
GRACE: He doesn`t have a right to crime scene photos.
RIPKA: Well, crime scene photos are different. Those are the property of the district attorney`s office.
GRACE: Well, that`s what we`re talking about, Alan. We`re talking about those photos taken of Jackson`s private parts.
RIPKA: Well, I mean, this is a little different. We`re not talking about taking a photo of a crime scene, we`re talking about a man`s body. And certainly, those are private in nature. And there`s no reason for the DA`s office...
GRACE: Alan...
RIPKA: You have to have an interest in wanting to keep it, Nancy.
GRACE: That`s just like -- well, you heard Sneddon`s interest, in case there are other future cases. The reality is, nobody has the right to a book-in photo, do they? Can they sue the police department to get that book-in photo back? N-O!
RIPKA: Well, this is a little different than your face. Your face is shown to the public. That`s why they can keep it. Your genitals are not, and he has every right to get that back, should get that back, and Sneddon should not have the opportunity to keep it "just in case."
GRACE: Lisa Wayne, I know you`ve got the defense side, but realistically speaking, will Jackson get the photos back?
WAYNE: You know, I think all he really wants is an assurance that this is never going to be disseminated to the public. I think the DA and the law enforcement can keep those under seal, keep those, you know, so that nobody else can have them. He doesn`t want them disseminated, for whatever reason, and we can guess why, and he wants to keep them private. So I agree with Alan...
GRACE: Will he get them back?
WAYNE: ... he`ll get his property back. But if they can show that, in fact, there`s a reason to keep these, I don`t think he will...
GRACE: OK, so...
WAYNE: ... as long as they`re sealed.
GRACE: No. Caryn Stark...
WAYNE: As long as they`re sealed.
GRACE: ... speaking of Sneddon`s reason for keeping the photos, can a pedophile just stop molesting?
STARK: Not at all. Absolutely not, Nancy, and it`s a good idea to keep it because I would predict that this will happen again. You can`t stop.
GRACE: Final thought, Jane Velez?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, of course, there`s always the big question, Will there be a civil suit? And if so, what? Some say, well, they`re going to wait and see if it does happen again. That would make their civil case stronger.
GRACE: You mean to have the photos?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: To have -- if, let`s say, Michael Jackson got in trouble again with a similar situation, the family that lost the case in court in Santa Maria this time around could be waiting to see will he have...
GRACE: If something else happens.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... another problem. That would strengthen their civil case, since they lost so badly in the criminal case this time around.
GRACE: Right. Gotcha. Gotcha. What`s the statute?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, he`s not of age. He`s 15. He`s got several years until he becomes of age.
GRACE: OK.
Quick break, everybody. And to tonight`s "All Points Bulletin." FBI and law enforcement across the country on the lookout for this man, Ray Michael Gibson, wanted in connection with the sex assault of a teenage girl in Kalamazoo, Michigan, 2003. Gibson, 58, 5-9, 180 pounds, black hair, brown eyes. If you have any information, call the FBI at 313-965-2323.
Local news next for some of you, but we`ll all be right back. And remember, live coverage of a sheriff on trial for shooting an unarmed man Monday, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, Court TV`s "Closing Arguments."
Please stay with us as we remember Army Specialist Hoby Bradfield, Jr., 22 years old, an American hero.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: What a week in America`s courtrooms. Take a look at the stories, and more important, the people who touched all of our lives.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DNA confirms little 9-year-old Dylan Groene is dead, Dylan`s remains found last week at a Montana campsite after the miraculous rescue of his 8- year-old sister, Shasta, from a convicted sex offender, Joseph Edward Duncan III.
JESSE GROENE, SHASTA AND DYLAN`S BROTHER: This guy has history of tying people up. He has history of beating people. That`s exactly what happened to my family.
GRACE: Why is a convicted sex offender walking around free? Why did the judge let him go?
GROENE: If they don`t give Duncan the death penalty, I`m going to.
GRACE: Guilty! Dr. Jonathan Nyce goes down on a manslaughter verdict in the brutal slaying of his wife, Michelle. He even set it up to look like an accident until a pesky little thing like blunt trauma to the head was a kind of a giveaway. The defense had a chance (INAUDIBLE) two right here from one fall. But to then get blows over here, she`d have to fall down and then bounce up and then fall over!
Tonight, a 3-year-old little girl and an 18-month-old toddler gone, gone from the home where their grandparents and uncle have been found murdered.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No trace of them. We were last season when the mother left her children in the care of her parents. And since then, absolutely nothing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The father of the children has allegedly made threats to the family.
GRACE: Lady Justice takes a blow!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The forms omitted the phrase, "You have a right to a lawyer during the questioning."
GRACE: And now killers, dopers, you name it, are walking free and getting new trials. Oh, my stars! OK, this guy here, he`s happy to be in his mugshot. OK, senior citizen felon.
Breaking news tonight in the disappearance of Alabama teen Natalee Holloway. Today, a judge orders a fellow judge`s son to stay behind bars, while the Kalpoe brothers walk free.
Van der Sloot allegedly telling his son, No body no case.
In the States, you can still try a case if you`ve got evidence.
We`re more acquainted with his backside.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
I want to thank all of my guests tonight, but as always, my biggest thank you is to you for being with us, inviting us into your home.
Coming up, headlines from all around the world, Larry on CNN. I`m Nancy Grace, signing of for tonight and for this week. Hope to see you right here Monday night, 8:00 o`clock sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.
END
