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Nancy Grace

Nancy Grace for July 18, 2005, CNNHN

Aired July 18, 2005 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news. We go live to Aruba. Is there a major break in the case of Natalee Holloway, the 18-year-old American girl who went missing the very last night of her high school senior trip on the tiny island of Aruba?
Blonde hair discovered on duct tape on an Aruban beach sent off the island for DNA testing. Does it belong to Natalee Holloway? Plus, Aruban police take the judge`s son, Joran Van Der Sloot, back to the beach to reenact the story he told the cops about the night he claims he left Natalee alone on the beach.

And a honeymoon disaster. A 26-year-old newlywed vanishes into thin air off a cruise ship on a dream vacation. Can a mystery at sea be cracked?

And will the Georgia Supremes let a multi-millionaire off the hook, or will he have a date with Lady Justice and a jury trial on charges he hired a hitman to kill his wife? Get this: It was death by 12 pink roses and a 9 millimeter.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. And I want to thank you for being with us tonight.

A honeymoon cruise turned into a nightmare. A 26-year-old newlywed, pictured here, George Smith, and his bride, celebrate on a cruise through the Mediterranean. What a dream, until George vanishes into thin air, not a trace.

But tonight, blood drops in his cabin. Did Smith fall overboard or was he murdered on the high seas?

And a beautiful Atlanta socialite -- I remember this -- Lita Sullivan, shot dead execution-style at the front door of an upscale downtown home by a man who was concealing a automatic weapon behind a dozen pink roses. Will her millionaire husband, James Sullivan, finally stand trial for murder for hire decades later?

But first, tonight, we go live to Aruba, breaking news. It`s day 50 - - five-zero -- on the Natalee Holloway missing girl case. Strands of blonde hair, dark duct tape, a beach in Aruba. Is this hair Natalee`s? FBI and Dutch authorities testing the hair to see if it belongs to the 18- year-old blonde honor student from Alabama.

Tonight, in Birmingham, Natalee`s stepdad Jug Twitty is with us; in Aruba, editor and publisher of "Exclusivo" magazine, Jacqueline Suttle; in New York, forensic scientist Dr. Larry Kobilinsky and defense attorney Jason Oshins; in Atlanta, veteran trial lawyer Renee Rockwell; in New York, psychotherapist Dr. Robi Ludwig.

But first, let`s go to Birmingham and WBMA-TV reporter, Anastasiya Bolton. Anastasiya, bring us up-to-date.

ANASTASIYA BOLTON, WBMA REPORTER: Well, Nancy, as you`ve mentioned, on Sunday a piece of duct tape with blonde hair was found on the northern side of the island. That`s where the caves are, actually the opposite side where Natalee Holloway was last seen.

That, of course, if you remember, was on the hotel side, at the Marriott, as Joran Van Der Sloot has mentioned. DNA testing is being performed in Holland because Aruba does not have the capability to do the DNA testing on those hair strands.

And another thing that happened, Joran Van Der Sloot was taken to the beach on Sunday to possibly reenact or tell investigators exactly what happened the night that Natalee Holloway disappeared. He`s done this for the second time.

Before this, in early July, he was taken to the beach and was asked by authorities what happened. We do not know what he told them. That time and this time again, the authorities have been very secretive about what they`ve been finding out.

Also, Dave Holloway, he`s on the plane right now going back to his Mississippi. Natalee`s dad has tried to meet with Joran, as he says to try to get the truth out of the 17-year-old. But he was not allowed to the jail.

Although he ran into the Van Der Sloots, the parents of Joran at the jail, I`m told that they had a brief conversation. Dave gave them three books. One of the books was the Bible. The second book was "Purpose- Driven Life."

He said he just wants to know the truth and, of course, he and Mr. Van Der Sloot have spoken. He said he told Mr. Van Der Sloot that, "I want to know the truth about my daughter." Mr. Van Der Sloot says, "I stand by my son, just like any parent would."

GRACE: I want to go very quickly to Aruba. Standing by, the reporter with "Exclusivo" magazine, Jacqueline Suttle.

Jacqueline, do we know how many hair approximately were on that duct tape?

JACQUELINE SUTTLE, "EXCLUSIVO" MAGAZINE: Hi, Nancy. The information we have so far is that it`s true. Duct tape has been found on a national protected area here on the island with some strands of blonde hair.

The fact is also that information I got was that this duct tape doesn`t seem to have the wear and tear of a month. So I think we should not rush to judgment and let the DNA bring out the results, if this is Natalee`s hair.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, MOTHER OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY: I go back to the beginning of the investigation. And you know, I think of what the -- all four of the individuals are involved in -- when you`re involved in obstruction of justice, and lying to authorities, and implicating innocent people.

I mean, I certainly wish those were enforceable laws to some degree, because I feel that all four of those were occurring early on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Now there is a woman, a mother who has gone down to Aruba to find her girl. And she`s not only taking on the Aruban authorities, but everyone, it seems.

She was forced to give some kind of apology last week because she dared to criticize the Aruban investigation of the disappearance of her girl, Natalee Holloway, still there on Aruba looking for her girl.

Very quickly, I want to go to Jug Twitty. This is Natalee`s stepdad, Beth`s husband.

Jug, do we know that it is four hairs on the duct tape?

GEORGE "JUG" TWITTY, STEPFATHER OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY: That`s what I`ve been told. I was told that there`s not enough hair to send some to the United States and some to Holland, so...

GRACE: Now, it`s my understanding they had, in fact, split it up. And Jug, question to you. I understand that the hair is about 12 inches long, correct?

TWITTY: That`s what I was told.

GRACE: How long was Natalee`s hair?

TWITTY: Probably about that length.

GRACE: And, Jug, explain to me again, where was the double tape found in relation to where Natalee was staying?

TWITTY: Now, that I don`t know, Nancy. Since I wasn`t there yesterday when they found all this, I don`t know that.

GRACE: I`m going to go back then to Jacqueline Suttle with "Exclusivo" magazine. Jacqueline, where was the duct tape found in relation to where Natalee was staying?

SUTTLE: I would say, in minutes of distance, probably 25 minutes. It`s almost in the middle. It`s a protected national area of the island.

And, Nancy, I must say that there isn`t any fact that it was one piece of hair that was 12 inches long. These are not facts. These are assumptions.

GRACE: Assumptions by who?

SUTTLE: Assumptions that you bring up yourself, because I`m a press here in Aruba. And we have access to a lot of information. We dig for information. And so far, information we got is that it is not one string of hair...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: OK, Jacqueline, Jacqueline...

SUTTLE: ... any information of the size either, so...

GRACE: ... Jacqueline...

SUTTLE: I think it should -- Nancy...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Jacqueline, I`m reading it right here in an A.P. wire. That`s called the Associated Press.

Very quickly to Dr. Kobilinsky. The A.P. has reported -- and I have no reason to think that the A.P., the Associated Press, has made up a story about Natalee Holloway`s hair. Dr. Kobilinsky, this theory that the tape that Jacqueline has just told us about doesn`t show the wear and tear that you would expect.

You know, it`s only been 50 days. With tape that could possibly have been in a cave, behind a rock, under a rock, who knows where, what kind of wear and tear do you expect to find on a piece of duct tape?

LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Nancy, I don`t think you can draw any conclusions about how old the tape is.

GRACE: I mean, can you date duct tape, for Pete`s sake?

KOBILINSKY: You cannot. And what we have to remember here is that this was found on Boca Tortuga, on the opposite side of the island to the Marriott area. And quite frankly, we still don`t know if this is significant, whether it really is Natalee`s hair, or it`s simply debris that washed ashore.

However, I can tell you this, that testing hair for mitochondrial DNA requires only less than an inch. In fact, one to two centimeters is all that is required to do mitochondrial DNA.

And I can tell you this, that the laboratory in Amsterdam is a top- notch forensic institute. It is an excellent lab.

GRACE: How do you know that?

KOBILINSKY: I know the people that are running the lab. It is an excellent lab. The FBI would have no problems with conclusions drawn by that lab.

GRACE: Mitochondrial DNA with hair. Everybody, you can make a comparison to hair, but you can`t make an exact DNA match, unless there is a root from the hair. From that, you get what we call mitochondrial DNA. It is traced back through the mother.

Now, once again, in front of me, I have the A.P. wire.

Dusty, if you want to come over.

It says, "The ranger who made the find, Mario Rasmijn, said there were several strands, each one 12 inches long, and some are light blonde, others were dark."

OK, let`s talk about it very quickly. Dr. Kobilinsky, say we have a root, we have a root of -- I mean, the reality is, this may not be her hair. But if it is...

KOBILINSKY: If it is...

GRACE: ... how do we make the comparison? Do we need the mom`s hair?

KOBILINSKY: Well, first of all, if there`s a root, we can do nuclear DNA testing and we can find out absolutely if its hers or not. On the other hand, if we don`t have a root, what we can do is mitochondrial DNA testing. And that will take about a week or so. It`s not something that will just happen overnight.

GRACE: So mitochondrial takes longer than regular?

KOBILINSKY: It absolutely takes longer.

GRACE: OK. Very quickly to Jug Twitty. This is Natalee`s stepdad.

Jug, how did Beth, your wife, Natalee`s mom, respond when she found out about the duct tape with the hair on it?

TWITTY: She didn`t. I mean, Nancy, we`ve been through this so many times with different findings down there. It`s just -- we`ve been through the emotional highs and lows. And this does not, you know, get us excited one way or another, because we`ve gone through so many things like this.

GRACE: Jug...

TWITTY: We want to find out things with the investigation.

GRACE: Hey, you`re preaching to the choir. Remember when they leaked that there was blood in the -- blood found on a mattress. It was a dog`s blood. Last week there were bones; they were donkey bones. First, we heard there was a confession. That was retracted.

Robi Ludwig, how is Beth Holloway? I saw a picture of her this weekend in a magazine. She looked so thin and so frail, but she`s got the voice of a lion. She just keeps on.

How? How do you keep on?

DR. ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: It`s the strength of a mother that will do anything to find out the truth, when it comes to their child. And she has done an amazing job describing the torture that she has gone through and what it means to her to have people reach out to her. So she`s really an incredible woman.

GRACE: I want to let everyone know that we invited the families of Joran Van Der Sloot, the Kalpoe brothers, the prosecutors to come on tonight. They do not want to comment on the case.

When we get back, we`re going to be speaking to Natalee`s stepfather about Natalee`s dad meeting up with the judge`s son, Joran Van Der Sloot`s dad, in the parking lot of the jail. Why would the authorities in Aruba refuse to let Natalee`s father speak to the chief suspect?

Stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVE HOLLOWAY, NATALEE`S FATHER: We don`t know that the whole story. All we really know for a fact is they left Carlos and Charlie`s. After that, it`s a lot of speculation and a lot of fill-in-the-blanks.

If you and I were involved in something, and then I come to you and ask you to make up a story about, "We dropped her off at the Holiday Inn," wouldn`t you ask questions of why, if you were not involved in something, why would you make up the story? This is the 15th story he`s told, and the Marriott story may not even be true at all.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE "JUG" TWITTY, STEPFATHER OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY: I think the world knows that all of them know more than they`re saying. And that`s why this case is where it is today. Everybody is concerned that, you know, why are they not getting the answers? Those boys have the answers, you know? They know what they did with Natalee.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. Is there a break in the Natalee Holloway case? Duct tape found by a park ranger has blonde hair, darker hair on it, the hair about 12 inches long.

Let me quickly go to Anastasiya Bolton with WBMA-TV. Anastasiya, so much happened over the weekend. What can you tell us about, a, the father`s meeting in the jail parking lot, and, b, about the books that were handed over by Natalee`s father to Joran Van Der Sloot`s dad, the judge?

BOLTON: I`ve heard from the stepmom, Dave`s wife, that Dave went to meet Joran at the jail and he was refused that meeting. But he was telling the parents that he met Joran`s parents and he just wanted to talk to Joran and just to get the truth, just the facts.

He said he`s a forgiving man. He just wants to know what happened to his daughter. And since he was refused the meeting, he passed along the Bible and the "Purpose-Driven Life," which was, of course, read by millions of people around the world at this point.

We do not know if the books had actually gotten to Joran. Of course, the system, the jail system and the criminal system, is different in Aruba than from here. We do not know if they allow any passage of information back and forth or books, newspapers, so forth.

Paul Van Der Sloot who was, of course, previously arrested and spent four days in jail, he talked and said that he stands beside his son, and he did not reveal any information about the case.

GRACE: Well, Anastasiya, it`s my understanding that Judge Van Der Sloot said something along the lines -- there is a shot of him, everybody - - I don`t recognize his face as much as I do his back side, because he always seems to run away from the camera whenever we try ask him anything.

Anastasiya, it was my understanding he said something to the effect, "I would do anything for my son," Anastasiya?

BOLTON: He did say that. Yes, Nancy, he did say that. But as just any parent would say the same thing. Just as Beth Twitty is on the island for more than 50 days now looking for her daughter, Paul Van Der Sloot will do the same thing. At this point I don`t think it`s safe for us to assume that this is an admission of guilt. He did...

GRACE: I don`t think anybody said tonight, Anastasiya, that it was an admission to anything.

But here in the studio with me, psychotherapist Dr. Robi Ludwig. It would seem to me that Judge Van Der Sloot would say, "I`m sorry about your daughter. What can I do to help find your daughter?" instead of saying, "Look, I`m going to do anything to help my son." To me, that doesn`t make sense.

LUDWIG: That`s what`s missing here. There doesn`t seem to be any remorse on Joran`s part or on the judge`s part. It also smacks of themes of the Peterson case with the parents stood by their son no matter what. And we know that parents want to believe in their child`s innocence, whether they are or not.

GRACE: You know, I want to quickly speak to Dr. Larry Kobilinsky here with us. I want to go back to this break in the case, the duct tape found by a park ranger. Now, first of all, you note, Doctor, from handling evidence in court, writing books about it and so forth, who finds the evidence is very important, as well.

KOBILINSKY: Well, sure, that person becomes part of the chain of evidence.

GRACE: This is a totally an impartial person, it seems to me.

KOBILINSKY: Indeed, it is.

GRACE: A park ranger.

KOBILINSKY: Indeed, it is. I think the critical part here is that, if her hair is -- if it`s confirmed that it`s her hair, it`s on duct tape, we have an indication that some criminal violent activity took place.

And I think that we should know within about a week or so, certainly, if it is her hair. I know initially they`re going to be doing some microscopic analysis. That`s very quick.

They probably have a good indication right now of whether it is hers or not. But to confirm it, they really need to do mitochondrial DNA.

And as you said, Nancy -- you`re the best forensic scientist -- you know very well mitochondrial DNA does not give you an absolute identification. So I think, when you put that together with the potential confessions that we`re hearing about and everything else, it all fits together.

GRACE: You know, Renee Rockwell is with us, a veteran trial lawyer who has practiced law not only in the states but has been in Aruba many, many times, as well, legally.

Renee, the area -- you`re familiar with the island -- the are where they found the duct tape. You and I both know duct tape, like a fingerprint and many other types of scientific evidence, cannot be dated, so we don`t know how old the duct tape is.

But, Renee, you know the island. The reality is, when you find duct tape with hair still attached to it, I just can`t imagine it being very old.

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It can`t be old, Nancy. But what`s interesting is, if they sent it to a lab, they can also determine whether or not anybody else`s hair`s on it. And then, at that point, you can take samples from any of the people that have already been in question in this investigation, namely Van Der Sloot, the Kalpoe boys, even the judge or the disc jockey.

You`re getting a little bit closer to some physical evidence. This is all you have. It`s a long shot. But at least it`s something.

Another thing, Nancy, just briefly, you have two separate dynamics going on here. You`ve got to feel for the family. You`ve got the government that`s trying to solve a crime, but you also have...

GRACE: Ha! I don`t know about that.

ROCKWELL: Well, but you also have the family. They just want to know. And I think, at this point, where they`ve hit so many dead-ends that the government should let the parents talk to the young man that`s in jail.

I don`t know if the lawyers would allow that, or let the family go and watch the young man go out to the beach and try to reenact where he was, just to get a little bit of closure on this.

Because, Nancy, if he`s telling the truth, whether he starts at the beginning, the middle, or the end of the story, it`s going to be the same story. And I`d just be interested to see if it`s the same story he told a month ago.

GRACE: Renee, I want to throw this to Jason.

Jason Oshins, the reality is, all of that is like in a fantasy world that Renee Rockwell was just talking about. Everybody`s going to sit down and all get together. "Can`t we all just get along?" Are you kidding me?

This guy has already changed his story we know between nine and 15 times. I say, Jason, all they need is one piece -- one piece -- of forensic evidence. And between all of his changed stories, they got a case.

JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, certainly, Nancy, from the prosecutor`s perspective, you want to get something, something additionally besides the conjecture, to lean on him a little bit, or lean on the Kalpoe, or lean on anyone that might have something where they -- as Renee said -- where there`s some other hairs, or Larry said that, where there`s some other hairs that they could use and try to get something out of it, try to put some of this together, you know, to exert some pressure on Van Der Sloot.

GRACE: One piece of forensic evidence. It`s a long shot. Renee`s right about that. But will this hair attached to duct tape on the beach be a break in the Holloway case?

We`ll all be right back, including Natalee`s stepfather with us.

But very quickly to "Trial Tracking." Hundreds gather Saturday to remember Dylan Groene on what would have been Dylan`s 10th birthday. Dylan and his 8-year-old little sister, Shasta, kidnapped from their Idaho home, where their 13-year-old brother, their mother, and her boyfriend all murdered, May 16th. Dylan`s remains discovered in the Montana mountains nearly two months later.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JENNIFER INWOOD, DYLAN`S COUSIN: We feel very strongly that Dylan, (INAUDIBLE) their deaths will mean something. And it`s going to mean that my family`s going to fight very hard, along with other families, to make sure that these people never have the chance to do to some other child what they did to our family.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And then, on Sunday, hundreds gather again to raise money to help little Shasta, rescued from the hands of a convicted sex offender, Joseph Edward Duncan III.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Day 50 -- five-zero -- since Natalee Holloway went missing on a high school senior trip. Just this weekend, breaking developments in the story.

The lead suspect in the case taken back to the beach to reenact the night he was with her. And duct tape emerges covered in blonde hair.

Very quickly, down to Jug Twitty, Natalee`s stepfather. Jug, why do you think that Aruban authorities refused to allow Natalee`s dad to speak to Joran Van Der Sloot?

TWITTY: I`m sure it`s the attorneys that are saying that he can`t do that. You know, Nancy, you talked about a minute ago how you`ve seen no concern or remorse from either one of those families, and that`s the way I feel. I`ve seen none from the Van Der Sloots. I`ve seen none from the Kalpoes.

I saw them smiling, laughing. Their boys are home, you know, with their families. But Natalee`s not. And it concerns me.

GRACE: With us, Jug Twitty. Everyone, stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VITO COLUCCI, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: Let`s assume he got drunk and he fell in the water. That`s the most probable thing. That`s, like, maybe 60 percent or something, 70 percent. But you got to keep your options open on that other 30 percent, be it the wife, be it somebody else on the boat he got in an argument with.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Oh, I don`t know if I would settle for 70 percent likelihood the one you love died by accident. Oh. Oh, no. I`m talking about a 26- year-old newlywed on his honeymoon, goes on a cruise on Royal -- it`s Royal Caribbean, right, Ellie (ph) -- Royal Caribbean cruise line, owned by a company in the Bahamas. He disappears. His wife wakes up -- his bride wakes up in the morning. He`s not there. So she went to work out.

Tonight, in Stamford, Connecticut, "Greenwich Times" correspondent Hoa Nguyen is with us. Thank you for being with us, Ms. Nguyen. Bring us up to date on the story.

HOA NGUYEN, "GREENWICH TIMES": Well, right now, there isn`t much of an update. I can sort of take you through what happened. I mean, on July 5, George Smith and his wife were on the Brilliance of the Seas cruise ship. And it was docked in Kusadasi, Turkey, at that time. And the ship got in about 7:00 AM. Shortly afterwards, cruise officials said passengers spotted some blood on a white overhang that kind of protects lifeboats. They alerted the cruise officials. They did a search of the nearby cabins, found that the -- found that Mr. and Mrs. Smith were not in the cabin. They did a full search of the ship. They found Mrs. Smith. They didn`t find Mr. Smith.

At this time, I think Turkish authorities were then called by the ship`s captain, who said that blood had actually been found inside the Smiths` cabin. Turkish authorities boarded the ship, and they also found bloody handprints on the rail. They interviewed Mrs. Smith, and she stayed one night in Kusadasi and then returned the next morning.

GRACE: Returned to the States?

NGUYEN: Yes, returned to her home in Connecticut.

GRACE: OK, so there was no -- she stayed -- she didn`t stay at all to try to find her husband?

NGUYEN: I know she stayed one night in Kusadasi.

GRACE: OK. Let me get this timeline down. What -- how long had they been on the cruise when he went missing?

NGUYEN: It`s about midway through the cruise. They`d just left the port of Mykonos, Greece, and they had gone into Turkey, the first time they had gone into Turkey. And that was July 5, the morning of.

GRACE: So they had been on the cruise for how many days?

NGUYEN: I think midway, so I`d say about six, seven days, at that point.

GRACE: Were the other passengers questioned, or were they allowed to leave the ship unquestioned?

NGUYEN: I talked to two passengers on board the ship. They said they were not questioned. Of course, they themselves did not hear or see anything suspicious. They were part of, like, the rumor mill that was going on on the ship, but they said that they were not questioned.

GRACE: OK.

NGUYEN: I don`t know about the rest of the passengers.

GRACE: So we know at least some passengers were not questioned. Regarding the wife, did she have a recollection? I mean, did they come back to the room together the night before?

NGUYEN: Well, I think when she was questioned by Turkish authorities, she -- the one Turkish official said that she didn`t remember anything from the night before. Cruise officials said that Mrs. Smith had woken up the next morning, found that her husband was not in the cabin and had assumed that he had gone to meet some friends on the ship.

GRACE: Wait a minute. Wait. Whoa, whoa! Wait! Didn`t remember the night before? Why, temporary amnesia? How can you not remember the night before?

NGUYEN: According to the Turkish official, she and her husband had been drinking that night. So she woke up the next morning and she remembered drinking, but she didn`t remember anything else...

GRACE: Has the FBI been brought in?

NGUYEN: ... according to Turkish authorities.

GRACE: Has the FBI been brought in?

NGUYEN: Yes. The FBI is investigating.

GRACE: OK, very quickly to Jason Oshins. They`re on the high seas. We don`t really even know the jurisdiction. We don`t know if there is foul play, number one, or the jurisdiction, if there is foul play. It could be in the waters of Turkey. It could be in the waters near Mykonos, Greece. If it`s in international waters, then the jurisdiction will be that of the cruise liner, which was Bahamian.

So Jason, where do we go from here? Everybody`s left the boat. Nobody -- I don`t think any of the passengers were questioned.

OSHINS: Certainly, a lot different in exposure than the Holloway case, which has taken us front and center. Not one of these two countries, either Greece or Turkey, wants to deal with this. Certainly, cruise lines are notorious for trying to push it under the rug and, you know, keep the PR happy.

GRACE: Pretend nothing happened.

OSHINS: Say that again, Nancy?

GRACE: To pretend nothing happened.

OSHINS: Well, almost.

GRACE: You don`t think Aruba is worried about tourism? Are you kidding?

OSHINS: No, no. I said Aruba clearly is, and it`s within our focus. But here, in this instance, it`s not playing a large focus, and neither of these two countries would like to deal with it. Hopefully, it`s a cruise ship issue and, you know, simply he fell over and it`s something that they can just not deal with and let it go away.

GRACE: Well, Jason, you know what? That`s exactly what it sounds like they`re doing.

To Dr. Kobilinsky. Where do we go from here? We`ve got blood in the cabin. The wife says she has no recollection of them coming back together the night before and wakes up, he`s not in bed beside her, so she goes to work out. But the reality is, it`s their honeymoon. It`s pretty difficult to impugn malice on two people that are very happily enjoying their honeymoon.

KOBILINSKY: Well, first of all, we don`t know if it`s an accident or a homicide. We have no body, either, and that`s a key piece to solve this puzzle. But what we do have is blood evidence in three locations. And probably the most important location is in the cabin. We need to know how much blood was present and we need to know whether that blood is present in a contact pattern or a spatter pattern. In other words, we want to know, again, if he met with violence or he just fell and struck his head on a particular spot and then, losing consciousness, fell off the balcony.

GRACE: The only thing that concerns me with that theory is the blood in the cabin. Robi, it is -- you know, normally, you immediately look at the spouse, the boyfriend, the girlfriend.

LUDWIG: Right.

GRACE: But the fact that they`re on their honeymoon, that`s really difficult.

LUDWIG: That doesn`t change anything for me. I`ve spoken to...

GRACE: To me it does.

LUDWIG: ... many people who have been on their honeymoon and are enormously stressed, and in fact, have reality right in their face and say, Oh, my gosh, what have I done? So people on honeymoons -- yes, it`s supposed to be a glorious time, and for many people, it is. But couples sometimes argue. The reality and differences of opinion become front and center. So it`s no guarantee that it`s a harmonious vacation.

GRACE: You know, she`s right, Renee Rockwell. But the reality is, as always, it boils down to forensics. Although, for instance, in Scott Peterson, we didn`t have a lot of forensics pointing to Scott Peterson. But here you`ve got a couple on their honeymoon. There`s been no indication they had been unhappy at all. And we know they were drinking heavily. The fly in the ointment is that there was blood in the cabin and above the overhang where the lifeboats are. So whatever happened had to happen not only outside the cabin but in the cabin, if, indeed, all of this is his blood.

ROCKWELL: It`s a little too early, Nancy. This does not a murder make. We don`t know if it`s her blood, if it`s his blood. We don`t know if the blood in the cabin is the same as the blood on the railing or the overhang. It`s a little too early.

But I`m with you, Nancy, not on a honeymoon. I just think they`re in their glory times now. I mean, they had plans to have children. He was going to inherit his father`s business. These are the good days. I just can`t imagine that. It sounds like an accident to me.

GRACE: But you know what? We said the same thing about Scott Peterson at the get-go. Oh, they`re so happy. They`re about to have a baby. This is the happiest time of their life. But again, on the high seas, to disappear -- say if you`re drunk and you`re walking back and you`re walking down one of those little narrow wrought iron stairwells they have on cruise ships, you get hit and fall over. That`s entirely believable to me. The fly in the ointment again is the blood in the cabin, Renee. That`s the problem.

ROCKWELL: We still don`t know whose blood that is, Nancy, but I`m sure that somebody -- I hope they do a little better job than they`re doing in Aruba, at least.

GRACE: You know, I don`t know why everybody won`t call it like it is about Aruba. They have bungled this from the get-go. What, doctor?

KOBILINSKY: Well, not only were they drinking the night before, but they were also gambling in the casino. And there is a possibility that somebody was very angry at this gentleman and perhaps visited his cabin.

GRACE: But the wife was in there, Larry!

KOBILINSKY: But she was drunk out of her mind and unconscious.

GRACE: OK. Somebody follows them back to the cabin, beats him in the head, and she sleeps through the whole thing? Uh-uh. I`m not buying that for a minute. But are you serious?

KOBILINSKY: I don`t know. I think it`s a possibility. In other words, if they find certain evidence in that cabin that leads one to believe that he was struck over the head, it only takes one shot, and that`s it.

GRACE: One last question to "Greenwich Times" reporter Hoa Nguyen. Ms. Nguyen, do we know where the DNA for the blood has been sent for DNA analysis? This may very well not even be his blood.

NGUYEN: We don`t know, actually. You know, the...

GRACE: Let me guess. The Royal Caribbean DNA crime lab? That was a joke. OK. So we don`t know what, if anything, the cruise ship has done.

NGUYEN: Well, I think the cruise ship is taking the position that the FBI is investigating, that Turkey is investigating, and that they are cooperating.

GRACE: OK. Well, I hope they`re right.

Quickly, everybody, to "Trial Tracking." The Iraqi special tribunal has brought its first charges against former Iraqi president Saddam Hussein. It all went down on Sunday. The charges relate to a series of detentions and executions Hussein allegedly committed in `82 following an assassination attempt. Hussein not mentioned specifically because he is a part of a five-member group facing charges.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GIOVANNI DI STEFANO, SADDAM HUSSEIN`S LAWYER: All that we have at the moment are what the media are saying and what Judge Juhi was indicating, that 143 people were apparently placed on trial and then subsequently executed. They were without a lawyer and without proper charges, that 1,500 people were allegedly put into detention without access to a lawyer and without knowing why they were there. But we have a similar situation with Saddam Hussein -- 548 days, three visits from a lawyer, and we don`t know why he`s there. We can speculate, but that`s not good enough.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: No trial date set for Saddam Hussein. Could be as early as September.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES SULLIVAN, ACCUSED OF WIFE`S MURDER: Obviously, I am innocent of all of these charges. It has been a very difficult ordeal.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Is justice delayed justice denied? This is a murder case that has slept for well over a decade, an Atlanta socialite, absolutely beautiful, Lita Sullivan, gunned down when she answered the door to her condominium, as I recall, coincidentally, the day she was supposed to sign divorce papers to enter in a property settlement, as I recall it, John Connolly. I remember when it happened. A guy came to her door to deliver a dozen pink roses. She answered the door, and they shot her in the head and killed her, turned around and left.

JOHN CONNOLLY, "JUSTICE" MAGAZINE: Yes, they did. It was the day the judge was going rule on the validity of...

GRACE: Right.

CONNOLLY: ... a post-nuptial agreement which could have been Sullivan back in -- out of his -- out of his money. He would have lost half his fortune.

GRACE: With us, let me formally introduce him, John Connolly with "Justice" magazine. You may have read some of his work in "Vanity Fair," as well. Bring me up to date, John. Why are they claiming to take this guy to trial is double jeopardy?

CONNOLLY: Back in 1992, the federal government charged him with the use of interstate commerce facilities, namely, a phone, for murder for hire. And he`s trying to say -- or his attorney, who`s Don Samuel, that this is double jeopardy, which is really nonsense.

GRACE: No. Total and complete BS.

Renee, Rockwell, let`s call it like it is. The feds tried him on a wire issue -- basically, that he had hired a hit man over the phone. And we do know that very shortly after the execution-style murder went down of his wife, a pay phone phone call was made to his house -- ring, hang up, ring, conversation -- right after the murder a short distance away from the home. Gee, who could that have been, Renee?

So what do you think of these double jeopardy charges that the feds have already tried him? It was not for murder.

ROCKWELL: It wasn`t for murder, it was for using a federal facility, the phone, to hire someone to kill his wife. Now, those charges were initiated, but those charges were dropped after the trial started. Nancy, what they`re trying to do now is say that`s double jeopardy. You tried me, you dismissed that case, it`s over.

(LAUGHTER)

ROCKWELL: The interesting thing -- the interesting thing -- you laugh, but the interesting thing...

GRACE: It`s not going to work!

ROCKWELL: The Supreme Court is going to hear the arguments. All but one Supreme Court Justice decided that they would hear the arguments if either side asked for them. And they`re going to have to rule on that. They`re going to have to certify that question before the trial goes forward. This is 20 years in the making.

GRACE: I want to go back to John Connolly with "Justice" magazine. John, tell us about the crime itself.

CONNOLLY: It was really horrible. What`s kind of interesting -- it`s lots of stuff that you don`t have time for, but this guy had tried to get her two days earlier. And Sullivan -- there were conversations between the hotel where this guy was staying and Sullivan, two or three days of phone calls. And he was really insistent that this happen.

The other thing that`s really kind of interesting is that he had planned it so well, he invited two priests from his college, Holy Cross, to spend that week with him in Palm Beach. So he had his built-in alibi.

GRACE: Did you say two priests?

CONNOLLY: Two priests from Holy Cross University.

GRACE: Now, there is an alibi, all right? There`s an alibi! Were they there at the time this phone call came in from a pay phone near her house?

CONNOLLY: The phone call was 40 minutes away and exactly 40 minutes after the crime was committed. How coincidental!

GRACE: So can he explain who made that phone call?

CONNOLLY: I don`t think Jim Sullivan`s ever going to take the stand. He`s already a convicted perjurer on another charge, so...

GRACE: As opposed to facing the music on these charges, didn`t he end up in a Thai prison?

CONNOLLY: Yes. And from my point of view, it could not have happened to a -- you know, a finer person. He was on the lam for seven years, from 1998 until now -- and he still hasn`t gone to trial. But in 2002, he was captured in Thailand. What`s kind of remarkable about this is Don Samuel, who`s a good attorney...

GRACE: He`s a great attorney. I got to give him that much.

CONNOLLY: Back in `98, he said to the press and to everybody in the world, that he was in touch with his client and his client was going to surrender. Well, that never happened, Don. Sullivan was in the wind and stayed in the wind until he was caught in 2002.

GRACE: Hey, very quickly, I`ve only got a minute left before we go to break. John Connolly, there was another wife. Wasn`t her name Suki?

CONNOLLY: Yes, Suki Rogers Sullivan.

GRACE: Did he allegedly make a confession to her about murdering Lita?

CONNOLLY: According to her -- and she testified on the stand during the very acrimonious divorce that one night he -- during an argument they were having, he turned up the sound on the television very loudly, so if there were bugs, you couldn`t hear it, and said to her that he had hired a hit man to kill his ex-wife, Lita -- or about to be ex-wife, Lita.

GRACE: You know, Robi, what does it mean when you`re convinced that there are bugs in your house taping everything?

(LAUGHTER)

LUDWIG: It means you`re paranoid or guilty.

(LAUGHTER)

LUDWIG: And this is a person who...

GRACE: Paranoid or guilty. OK.

LUDWIG: Yes. He`s very selfish, and he does what`s expedient and very entitled. I mean, this is a person who`s narcissistic and has the -- all about me.

GRACE: Of course, under the husband and wife privilege, this jury, this criminal jury, will never hear that alleged confession.

Quick break, everybody.

To tonight`s "All Points Bulletin." FBI across the country on the lookout for this man, Burim Bezeri, wanted in connection with a sex assault on a 15-year-old girl in Illinois, 2002. Bezeri, 20, 6-2, 170 pounds, brown hair, blue eyes. If you have any information on Bezeri, call the FBI, 312-431-1333.

Local news next for some of you, but we`ll all be right back. And remember, live coverage of the verdict in the trial of a deputy sheriff who shot an unarmed man tomorrow, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern on Court TV`s "Closing Arguments."

Please stay with us as we remember Private First Class Eric Paul Woods, just 26 years old, an American hero.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: We at NANCY GRACE want very much to help in our own way to solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Tonight, take a look at 17- year-old Tyler Vermace. Tyler disappeared from Cedar Rapids, Iowa, January 13. Tyler last seen wearing a blue-gray jacket, bluejeans and a red stocking cap. If you have any information on this boy, Tyler Vermace, contact the Cedar Rapids police, 319-286-3535, or go on line to Beyondmissing.com. Please help us.

You know, while we`re kicking around all the legal theories about double jeopardy and whether this case can be proven or not, John Connolly, Lita Sullivan`s family has suffered in silence with that -- their girl, with her head blown off, lying in the vestibule of this beautiful home. From my recollection of the crime scene photos, and it was a really long time ago that I saw them, what -- wasn`t the floor, like, black and white marble, and she -- the -- all the roses were lying there and she was lying there dead?

CONNOLLY: You`re absolutely correct. It was just a horrible crime, and it`s just beyond -- the -- the Clintons (ph), her family, are just two lovely, lovely people. I`ve met them a number of times. I spoke with them fairly recently.

GRACE: Take a look at that neighborhood. I mean, other than the crime scene tape and the police, that is some dig, John Connolly. I mean, whoa!

CONNOLLY: (INAUDIBLE) Jim Sullivan inherited that money from his Uncle Frank, so -- who`s no longer with us.

GRACE: Who is also dead.

CONNOLLY: Yes.

GRACE: He just got exhumed.

CONNOLLY: Yes, he did. And sadly, they couldn`t find anything which would incriminate Sullivan. But I truly believe that he was responsible for that.

GRACE: Was Lita Sullivan ever really accepted in Atlanta society?

CONNOLLY: In Atlanta society, very much so. Not in Palm Beach society, though. (INAUDIBLE) Oh, her family were, you know, very politically astute people and very -- Andrew Young was a family friend, the former mayor of Atlanta.

GRACE: Amazing.

CONNOLLY: And just lovely people.

GRACE: It`s amazing that this has not come to trial yet. Well, we shall see. Thank you, John Connolly.

I want to thank all of my guests tonight. And you know, as always, my biggest thank you is to you for being with all of us, inviting us into your home. Coming up, headlines from all around the world, Larry on CNN. I`m Nancy Grace, signing off for tonight. Hope to see you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 o`clock sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END