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American Morning

London Terror; Killer Heat; NASA Scapegoat

Aired July 25, 2005 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Tracking terror. Tracking terror. London police connecting the dots between the deadly bombings on July 7 and the failed attacks exactly two weeks later. Soledad is live in London with the very latest.
Tracking terror at a seaside resort in Egypt. At least 84 killed, 200 injured in a bomb attack there. Have investigators uncovered another Pakistani link to terror?

And this intense heat wave bringing more misery and more triple- digit temperatures throughout the U.S.

All on this AMERICAN MORNING.

Good morning to you from New York. I'm Miles O'Brien. We're glad you're with us.

We're tracking lots of things this morning, including the countdown for the Space Shuttle Discovery, which by this time tomorrow should be getting close if all goes well.

Soledad joining us from London.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Hey, Miles. Good morning to you.

We're in Abington Green. It's a relatively small space, but actually we've got the parliament building right over our shoulder. And it's kind of a central location, not only for the tourists who have been coming through here, but also commuters as well. This morning we are tracking the investigation on several fronts.

First of all, why was an unarmed Brazilian national shot and killed on an underground train? The investigation to that is now under way. And also, more information about the suspects and the search for them as well in the second round of bombings that never detonated on both the underground trains and a bus as well.

That's ahead this morning, Miles. Let's get it back to you in New York, though, first.

M. O'BRIEN: All right. Thank you very much, Soledad.

Expecting a briefing from Scotland Yard as well in just a few moments. We will get all of that in just a little bit. But first, let's check the headlines. Carol Costello is here with that.

Good morning, Carol. CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, Miles. Good morning to all of you.

"Now in the News," authorities in Egypt looking for several Pakistani individuals possibly linked to Saturday's attack. At least 84 people were killed in the Sharm el-Sheikh bombings. More than 200 were wounded.

In the meantime, officials are monitoring roads leading out of the resort town to the mountains. They say suspects connected to the attacks may try to flee the city.

Back to the negotiating table in Beijing, China. U.S. and North Korean delegates met unofficially this morning. The issue, working out a way to stop North Korea's nuclear program. More formal talks -- six-nation talks, I should say, will kick off tomorrow. That's after a 13-month freeze.

A manhunt under way this hour for a convicted sex offender and an 8-year-old girl. Lydia Bethany-Rose Rupp was apparently taken from her home on Friday night. Authorities believe the suspect might have been heading out West. But there are now some reports the suspect, Fernando Aguerro, was seen in Mexico, and he apparently called a relative to say the girl was safe.

And the beginning of what could be the biggest split in organized labor in five decades. According to The associated Press, two unions from the AFL-CIO are quitting the giant labor federation. The Teamsters and the Service Employees Union are expected to make the announcement today. And who knows what ramifications that will have on the AFL-CIO. We'll keep you posted.

Back out to London and Soledad.

S. O'BRIEN: All right, Carol. Thanks a lot.

We are expecting a news conference in the next hour or so. That's coming to us out of Scotland Yard. We're hoping to learn a little bit more about the investigation into the second round of bombings here in London and what investigators have learned on that front.

Let's get right to our Senior International Correspondent Nic Robertson. He is at Scotland Yard this afternoon here in London, morning where they are on the East Coast.

Nic, what are we expecting to hear from Scotland Yard in the next hour or so?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, they're very likely to give an update on the three people that they arrested, any new leads that they may have, and perhaps knock down some of the theories that have been talked about in the press over the weekend. Also, likely to hear them deal with the issue of the shoot- to-kill policy. The police call it a shoot-to-kill to protect following the killing of a Brazilian here in London on Friday, right after the failed bombings the day before. Of course, he wasn't connected to the bombing.

But the very latest we have from the police is there is another raid going on in London right now. That in the north of London. At the moment, the police are raiding a house, or a premises, at least in the north side of London, that they say is connected to that second round of bombings last week -- Soledad.

S. O'BRIEN: And Nic, let me ask you a question, then, about shoot-to-kill. Is there any indication that the police are going to back away? Thus far, as we know, they very much supported shoot-to- kill, even in the wake of this tragedy, really, shooting of an unarmed and apparently the wrong man, the Brazilian national in the subway car.

ROBERTSON: It's obviously opened up a huge amount of debate here, but there doesn't seem to be the likelihood that they'll back away. They say that they need to be able to tackle potential suicide bombers in a way that disables them, that stops them from triggering a device if they're wearing explosive vests or they have a trigger in their hand.

And they've determined that the shoot-to-kill by shooting in the head is the only way to do that. And they say at this time, at least, that they're not going to change. There is, of course, a huge amount of debate.

This wasn't something that had really been in the public domain before. The police had been looking since 9/11 at new procedures and techniques to deal with suicide bombers, but it's not a -- not a conversation that has gone on in the public domain. And, of course, now it's very firmly in the spotlight here because of that killing of the Brazilian on Friday.

S. O'BRIEN: Yes. And the official inquiry, we should mention, into that shooting is now under way.

Nic Robertson for us this morning. Afternoon, rather, here in London.

Nic, thanks a lot.

Let's throw it back to Miles, where, in fact, it is morning.

Getting a little confused with all of this, Miles. Good morning to you.

M. O'BRIEN: Top of the afternoon to you, Soledad. Thank you very much.

S. O'BRIEN: Thank you.

M. O'BRIEN: A large part of America is caught in the grip of a relentless heat wave on this morning here. The high temperatures are taking an especially heavy toll in the mid and southwest regions.

An emergency response plan is in effect in Chicago. That plan was designed after 700 died during a heat wave 10 years ago.

Chris Lawrence joining us from Chicago.

Tell us about -- I assume there's a fairly good plan to respond to this in the wake of that terrible situation 10 years ago?

CHRIS LAWRENCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. It was created, Miles, in direct response to what happened during that heat wave.

You know, I've got to tell you, this morning it is definitely much more comfortable that it was yesterday, but the officials here are very sensitive to the heat, and they are taking this heat very seriously. Even into today.

That's why they're going to have city officials still calling and going out door to door, checking on some of the older folks who live alone. They're at the highest risk. And they're making sure that they've got air conditioning or some other way to keep cool. And if a case worker thinks somebody is in immediate danger, they've got the authority to take them out of their home and get them into some air conditioning until things cool down.

Now, this heat wave didn't just shock it to Chicago. It hit the entire Midwest.

St. Louis this weekend hit 104. Omaha, Nebraska, 105. And right here in Chicago, we came very close cracking a record.

People were outside with water bottles, fans, doing whatever they could to keep cool. Right now the Chicago Fire Department says it appears that three people were killed by the heat, but we're still waiting to get confirmation on that from the medical examiner -- Miles.

M. O'BRIEN: Thank you very much, Chris Lawrence. Appreciate it.

It's much the same in the steamy Southwest. Temperatures in Phoenix could hit 106 today. And those are big numbers.

Of course Phoenix is used to big numbers, but this time it's even worse for them. Officials there say the deadly heat wave has claimed 21 lives, including 14 homeless people there.

But it's a different story in the desert areas of San Bernardino County, southern California. That's where heavy rains are causing severe flashfloods. Look at those pictures. In the community of Twentynine Palms, the deluge forced hundreds of people to evacuate their homes.

Chad Myers at the weather center. He's been watching this.

(WEATHER REPORT)

M. O'BRIEN: Soledad.

S. O'BRIEN: All right, Miles. Thanks. Well, worried about future attacks or potential future attacks, many fearful commuters are actually forgoing the tube and forgoing the bus and strapping on their walking shoes and basically hoofing it to work. We're going to take a look now at how some commuters are managing.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

S. O'BRIEN: This is the Waterloo Bridge right at the height of the morning rush hour. While it's only several hundred yards across, it's actually a very good vantage point for many of London's biggest sights.

For example, the Gherkin building, a big landmark on London's skyline, or over here the London Eye, big tourist attraction. Next to that, obviously, the House of Parliament. And right next to that, Big Ben.

What Londoners are telling us now, today, is that they've noticed many more people are now walking across the bridge, or riding their bicycles. But they also say, and we can see clearly, too, that the buses are obviously packed. In addition to that, we've seen an increased security presence, very obviously, at the numerous underground stops.

Londoners today seem to be taking it all in stride.

You're walking in to work because you always walk in to work?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I do normally tend to get the bus to save time. But just over the last couple of weeks I've been a bit more cautious, just -- yes, just walking straight in, yes.

S. O'BRIEN: Have you found many more folks out here with you?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, definitely. There's a lot more people on the streets at the moment. I know kind of a message for Londoners is to just try and get back on with what they're doing and just to stick to a normal routine. But, I mean, you can't help noticing that there are a few people, they say, effected, definitely.

S. O'BRIEN: So do you feel like you're sticking to your normal routine, or do you feel like you're changing your routine by now walking it work?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I have slightly changed it because of this. But, I mean, sooner or later I will get the bus again because I keep being late. So, yeah.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

S. O'BRIEN: We certainly hear that a lot, people both saying that they're changing their routine for now, they're hoping that they can change it back, in fact. And maybe what might move them in that direction, if there's any word about these four alleged bombers who tried to pull off the second bombing here in London, who are still on the loose at this moment.

Ahead this morning, Miles, we're still waiting for word from Scotland Yard. We're expecting that to come up in our next half-hour. We're going to bring that press briefing to you when we get it.

Also, a look at how they track the suspects, the bombing suspects. We'll talk to an expert about that just ahead.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

S. O'BRIEN: Welcome back, everybody. We've been telling you about this press briefing that we are expecting from Scotland Yard. And as we heard from Nic Robertson not too long ago, he says we're expecting an update on the third arrest. And all three men now in custody, so we're expecting an update from Scotland Yard on that information.

And that brings us right to Iain Donald. He is the head of Risk Consultants and Intelligence.

It's nice to see you. Thanks for talking with us.

As we mentioned, we're going to get word from Scotland Yard. There are some big developments, I think it's fair to say. A third arrest, and also some links that we're now learning potentially about the suspects from the first bombing who perished and the alleged bombings in the second who are still missing.

Do you think overall investigators have a lot to work on in this case?

IAIN DONALD, RISK CONSULTANT: I think they've had to spread their neck very, very wide, indeed. Obviously, there's a lot of speculation at the moment, because so little substantive evidence is coming out from the police. But I think we can be sure they're treating this on a very minute detail level, on the tactical level, by following up some of the evidence in the rucksacks and some of the other connections that have come from that. But also on the strategic level, by looking at known Islamists, looking at their movements, and seeing whether there are any changes in that.

S. O'BRIEN: We're going to get an update, we assume, on these three men now in custody. And so far we haven't really heard much. We only are assuming that they're not any of the four, or maybe five bombers that they're looking for.

So what do they want to know from these three if they're not the actual suspected bombers?

DONALD: I think the primary thing will be to establish whether they're a part of the support network for the bombers. And I think it's come to the case we have to assume that the support network for the bombers must be reasonably substantial given that the four of them have not actually been captured yet. S. O'BRIEN: Interesting. You talked a little bit about the Muslim extremists and that sort of network. Do you think that -- how strong is that? And do you think that those recruitment centers, is that happening in the mosques?

DONALD: It certainly has been said that England and the other European capitals are strategically more vulnerable to that kind of recruitment network. It has been known that there are extremist factions in and around the mosques in London, Leeds, Luton, and a number of other urban centers. But I think this is where the transnational intelligence effort comes into play in real force, because obviously our intelligence agencies will be looking to their partners in France, and the BND in Germany, and of course the Arab countries and the CIA as well to see if there are transnational links within these groups.

S. O'BRIEN: I have to imagine that cases like this are all about finding links and then extrapolating from these links. And some of the latest word we have is this potential link in a whitewater rafting, strange as that might be, group, really, could be linked between the two sets of bombers.

What -- what sorts of things need to follow up on that? And how likely do you think that there is a link?

DONALD: In many respects, this investigation is like any other criminal investigation. The police will be following up on leads, ascertaining whether leads are strong or weak, and eliminating lines of inquiries as they go along.

It's very difficult to say whether this whitewater rafting trip really is a genuine lead, but it would suggest how they got together like that, there was some kind of coordination before the attacks. And it's that element of coordination which may well prove fundamental here, ascertaining whether an al Qaeda or related specialist came into England and prepped one group, two groups, or even more.

S. O'BRIEN: Can you get eventually the high-ranking person? I mean, if you assume that the bombers are sort of the people who run out and go fulfill somebody else's vision to some degree, but the one you want is the recruiter, the high-level person, do you believe that the Metropolitan Police can, with what they have right now, do that?

DONALD: It's absolutely true that they need to get hold of this person. However, it's highly likely they've left the country by now. So they'll be needing to cooperate with their partners abroad to track them down. But we have seen successes over the last three years, particularly in Pakistan, where a number of high-level al Qaeda affiliates, recruiters have been caught.

S. O'BRIEN: Well then maybe there is some hope. Iain Donald, nice to chat with you. Thank you very much. We certainly appreciate it.

DONALD: Thank you.

S. O'BRIEN: And let's go back to Miles in New York -- Miles.

M. O'BRIEN: Thank you very much, Soledad.

Up next on the program, she was one of NASA's top shuttle officials when the Columbia disaster happened. And then she lost her job and became a bit of a scapegoat. We'll talk to a woman who has gone from superstar to scapegoat. We'll ask her what that is like next on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

M. O'BRIEN: Just about 25 hours now until the Space Shuttle Discovery is expected to blast off from the Kennedy Space Center in Florida. It's been two-and-a-half years now since the last mission. And, of course, that was the disastrous flight of the Shuttle Columbia.

Linda Hamm was one of the top mission officials for that flight, but she won't be around for tomorrow's mission.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

M. O'BRIEN (voice-over): At the Hamm house in Houston, the beat goes on, or so it seems. The boys are practicing, playing, thriving, happy. Well, there is math homework to contend with.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that goes to millimeters, so...

M. O'BRIEN: But it's nice to have a mom who's a math major. She is Linda Hamm, a space shuttle superstar...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah.

LINDA HAMM, NASA: You might have messed it up. Did you hand it in?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah.

M. O'BRIEN: ... who became a scapegoat for a catastrophe.

HAMM: And it's just really not a job. And it isn't something that you go to do every day. It's your life.

It's just a part of your life, seven days a week, always. Always thinking about it. So, yes, I miss -- I miss the job.

M. O'BRIEN: Hamm was number two at NASA's $3.5 billion shuttle space program and a lock to be the boss one day. A smart, talented, beautiful woman, a competitive body builder, no less, in a world dominated by guys in short-sleeved shirts with pocket protectors.

HAMM: I was the first woman section head in the entire division, first woman flight director. And even in the program there weren't a whole lot of women at the level of management that I was in.

M. O'BRIEN: Well, it didn't bother her a bit. She came here straight out of school from Wisconsin, hired over the phone. She came. They saw. She conquered.

HAMM: Landing about 50...

And I really think I've been lucky all along, because from the day I got in there, it was one of those jobs where the shoe really fit.

M. O'BRIEN: In January 2003, she was on top of the world, running the Mission Management Team, or MMT for Columbia. The MMT met five times during Columbia's last flight, and on three occasions they talked about that falling piece of foam that hit Columbia's wing 82 seconds after liftoff. And on each occasion, Linda Hamm and the others agreed it was simply a maintenance concern, which is what falling foam had always been.

HAMM: Deep down inside, I didn't believe, I didn't feel we had an issue. I'm pretty intuitive. Very intuitive. And this time, I had no intuition that this was going to be an issue.

M. O'BRIEN (on camera): And why not?

HAMM: I think it's back to the feeling that we lose foam every flight, it strikes the orbiter every flight. It's never a significant issue.

M. O'BRIEN (voice-over): Convinced there was nothing to worry about, Hamm blocked the efforts of others at NASA who wanted to ask the Pentagon to train spy satellites on Columbia while still in orbit to check for damage.

On the morning Columbia was to land, she gathered in a room that overlooks mission control with other senior shuttle managered Ralph Roe (ph) and Ron Dittamore (ph).

HAMM: I think the hardest thing is just the fact that the whole 16 days of flight, feeling extremely comfortable that everything was going great and just not knowing. Have no clue. No clue that something that terrible could happen.

M. O'BRIEN: Yet the problem was screaming for attention. Two flights before, in October, 2002, a big piece of foam from the same spot fell off as Atlantis roared to space. It left a big dent near some sensitive electronics at the base of the left solid rocket booster. The shuttle team did not answer that stark wake-up call.

(on camera): Do you have any regrets?

HAMM: The biggest regret is having launched in the first place. That's the biggest regret. We should have said we're not going to launch until we resolve the foam issue.

M. O'BRIEN: The problem was deep-seated, ingrained in NASA's culture. No one person to blame. And yet for a time, she became the focus, the embodiment of all that ailed the space agency, the scapegoat. HAMM: Some people phrase it as being a lightning rod for criticism. One thing that I will say, if they're picking on the NASA -- if they were challenging the NASA culture, I was certainly a part of that culture.

M. O'BRIEN (on camera): Are you angry about how it affected you personally in the end?

HAMM: I am not angry at all. I'm truly not angry. I think that NASA certainly treated me fairly. They needed to move me out of the program.

At the time it didn't really feel good, but it was the best for NASA. It was best for the program. It was best for me personally.

M. O'BRIEN: Do you think it derailed your career?

HAMM: Oh yes, I certainly do.

M. O'BRIEN (voice-over): And this does not sit well with her former colleagues, still in the trenches.

PAUL HILL, NASA FLIGHT DIRECTOR: In this -- the business of flying in space is too darn large to make it down to a single person and say, boy, if Linda Hamm had just been smarter in the way she conducted those MMTs, this wouldn't have happened.

M. O'BRIEN (on camera): So was Linda Hamm scapegoated then?

ADM. HAL GEHMAN, COLUMBIA INV BOARD: Not at all. She shares a part of the responsibility, along with her equals in the chain of command and her senior -- her senior, Dittamore (ph), who bears ultimate responsibility.

M. O'BRIEN (voice-over): Retire Admiral Hal Gehman led the Columbia Accident Investigation Board.

GEHMAN: She should have asked for a worst-case scenario, as well as a best-case scenario. The only thing that -- the only scenario or the only option that was ever presented in these meetings was the best-case scenario.

HAMM: I do think about Columbia every day. There's not -- oh, I will forever. I run a lot, and that's probably when a lot of that goes through my mind.

So that won't go away, but it was just so -- you just can't live in the past, and you certainly can't pity yourself. You've got to get up and you've got to go on.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

M. O'BRIEN: I'll be at the Kennedy Space Center for tomorrow's launch, we hope. Be sure to join us here for a special extended edition of AMERICAN MORNING. We'll take you right to the launch, set for 10:39 a.m. Eastern Time. Much more on a special edition of AMERICAN MORNING from both sides of the Atlantic, London and New York, after a short break.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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