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Nancy Grace

New Developments in Holloway Disappearance Case; Multi-Millionaire on Trial for Killing His Wife

Aired July 25, 2005 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news. Live to Aruba for the Natalee Holloway disappearance. Two new witnesses come forward, and, with them, the noose tightens on judge`s son, Joran Van Der Sloot. And his two buddies, the Kalpoe brothers, last seen with 18-year-old Natalee the night she disappeared.
And we are on high alert here for DNA test results now underway on blonde hair found on thick duct tape found on an Aruban beach. Is this Natalee`s hair?

Plus, multi-millionaire engineer Donald Moringiello`s wife was missing a solid month before he thought to even mention her disappearance to anyone. Now, after a hung jury the first time around, he is back in court on trial for the murder of his wife, Hattie "Fern" Bergeler. She was found in a Florida bay, weighted down with cement blocks, just behind the couple`s luxury home.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. And I want to thank you for being with us tonight.

Multi-millionaire Donald Moringiello fights back in a Florida courtroom today. The wealthy engineer stands accused of shooting his wife, Hattie "Fern" Bergeler four times, then dumping her body in the choppy waters of a Florida bay. Prosecutors claim cement blocks attached to Hattie`s body are the same cement blocks found in Moringiello`s home.

But first, let`s go live to Aruba. Breaking news in the Natalee Holloway missing girl mystery. Two witnesses emerge tonight to hopefully break the deadlock in the case.

And tonight, the clock is ticking. DNA results on blonde hair found by a park ranger. The hair attached to duct tape. Is it Natalee`s? We are standing by, waiting for results.

Natalee, 57 long days gone. And tonight, her family raises the reward for their girl`s safe return to $1 million.

Tonight, in Aruba, T.J. Ward. He`s private investigator hired to look for Natalee. He`s been doing just that, including door-to-door there in Aruba. In Meridian, Mississippi, Natalee`s dad and step-mom, Dave and Robin Holloway are with us.

In New York, defense attorney David Schwartz; in Atlanta, veteran trial lawyer Penny Douglass Furr; in New York, forensic scientist Dr. Larry Kobilinsky; and with us, psychotherapist Dr. Robi Ludwig.

But first, let`s go down to CNN correspondent Susan Candiotti. She`s been on this case from the get-go. Hello, Susan, bring me up-to-date. A lot happening.

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: There is a lot happening. Let`s see. Where do we begin?

Well, first of all, police are currently analyzing a sworn statement that they took yesterday from a man who says he -- from a man who was a gardener who works in the area and said that, the night of Natalee`s disappearance, he was feeling very hot, didn`t have air conditioning at his place, and so he got in his car.

And at about 2:30 in the morning as he was driving to someone else`s house, he said he practically sideswiped a car that he thinks was the Kalpoe`s car in which the Kalpoe brothers were and Joran, as well, that vehicle that was parked near a local racket club.

Now he said that he could tell that, inside the car, were those three people, he believes. And he said again that that was about 2:30 in the morning.

So authorities are now talking to other people to try to verify that statement, verify his whereabouts, and try to learn whether that timeline fits in.

Clearly, there are some questions with it. Remember, at about 1:00 in the morning, they left the bar. Then we know that, according to one statement, and the problem is there are different statements here that we`re dealing with, but at about 2:30 in the morning, you consider it would take probably about a half-hour from those who were in the know down there to drive from the racket club to get back to, let`s say, the Kalpoe brothers home.

Why are we mentioning that? Because know that at about 3:00 in morning, according to one of the Kalpoe brothers, they were on the Internet in a chat room at 3:00 in the morning. From what I hear, you`d really have to hightail it to make it there in a half-hour, have time to go in the house, turn on the computer, and go online.

But that`s one of the many things that are happening. Shall I keep going or do you want me to pause it there?

GRACE: Hold on. Hold on. Wait a minute, Susan. Susan Candiotti is with us. Susan, hasn`t there been suggestions that the timing device on the computer had been tampered with? So how do we know what time these IM instant messages were really sent?

CANDIOTTI: Well, of course, that`s one of many questions you to look at. A lot of controversy here, and a lot of people saying different things about different times. But clearly, that`s one thing that they would have to delve into.

You can`t always trust those times, sure. And they could have been jiggered with. And we`ve got that -- again, the problem with how long it took authorities to question all the people involved in this case as possible suspects. Remember at least, what, a week, a week-and-a-half went by.

GRACE: So, OK. Tonight, we`ve got a gardener that can explain why he was out and about and seeing what was going down that night. Nearly sideswiped, what was it, a silver Honda-type car?

CANDIOTTI: Yes, a car that looked like that white, silver, yes.

GRACE: And, Susan, did he think he saw three people in there, three males?

CANDIOTTI: He said that he had enough time to look in and actually identify those three people he thinks he could identify them as being the Kalpoe brothers, as well as Van Der Sloot.

GRACE: Well, Penny Douglass Furr, I mean, the reality is, the time line is not written in stone. You`re talking to a bunch of teenagers who think she left Carlos and Charlie`s at a certain time. This guy thinks he saw the guys at a certain time, nearly sideswiped them.

The only time that could be set in stone is the time on their computer, these three suspects` computers, and even that could be tampered with, Penny.

PENNY DOUGLASS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you`re right, Nancy. However, it`s my understanding that, if you get the hard drive, and you have a computer expert, they can tell exactly when those messages were sent, even if they have been tampered with.

And I also would check Mr. Van Der Sloot`s phone. I understand he sent an urgent call to the Kalpoe brothers on that very same night. And I would like to know why he was sending an urgent call to the Kalpoe brothers.

GRACE: Of course, T.J. Ward, unless it was all a setup, and all these IM instant messaging, and phone calls, and all that between cell phones was just a cover-up to throw people off the timeline, the true timeline, T.J.

T.J. WARD, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: Well, it could be. I wouldn`t be surprised from what I`ve seen already. But after we had learned about the information from yesterday, I did some good, old-fashioned detective work and went out to the racket club and the subdivision and started knocking on doors.

Ironically, later on this afternoon, I found a girl that -- a husband and who lived in the -- lived in a house just adjacent to where the water and the lake is. And she started telling me about a car that she saw about 6 or 7 weeks ago, which would be after the disappearance of Natalee, a silver car that was in a neighborhood three or four times that night riding around the -- around the racket club and around the neighborhood that are a lot of cul de sacs.

And she started describing this car. So I asked her if I could come back and show her some pictures. So I obtained some pictures from the Kalpoe brothers` vehicle, which was -- what was really interesting was the taillights on the car had the clear lenses on the taillights.

And when I showed her the vehicle, she said, "That`s the car. That`s the car that was out here." So the car that I was showing her was the Kalpoe brothers, which was taken from the investigation from the Aruban police.

So, in fact, it may have been they were out there after the fact Natalee was missing, looking around, trying to find something they may have left behind.

GRACE: T.J., what were they doing looking out at cars going by?

WARD: I didn`t understand your question, Nancy.

GRACE: This woman and man that saw the silver car with the same type of lenses on it as the judge`s son. Why were they watching cars go by?

WARD: Well, the wife was home by herself that night. And I met the husband today, who took me in to introduce me to the wife. And she had -- there`s not that many people living in the subdivision, because it`s under construction now.

And she had her windows open because she was concerned. And she was watching -- when strange cars would come in the subdivision, she took note of who was there.

GRACE: Gotcha.

WARD: And this car was just happened to be noticed when I knocked on her door and brought it to her attention.

GRACE: T.J. is literally going -- this is T.J. Ward, a former Atlanta police officer and detective, now a private eye. He`s been hired by the family, is literally going door-to-door to try to find out the whereabouts of Natalee Holloway.

You know, Robi Ludwig, now, defense attorneys like Penny Douglass Furr and David Schwartz will attack these people claiming they didn`t see what they saw. But the reality is, if you call my mother and daddy right now, they can tell you about strange cars that go back and forth in front of the house. They`re convinced they`re burglars, and maybe they are, OK?

DR. ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Especially if it`s atypical. But we know that, when it comes to memory and eyewitness accounts, it`s highly variable. So it`s very hard to hang your hat on just eyewitness accounts. And you and I both know that.

But these witnesses do sound credible. And perhaps, they were asked the right question that triggered a memory.

GRACE: What about it? With me, Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky. But how likely is it that two, now three -- well, two -- two people could be wrong about a car in the same area?

DR. LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, that`s very important, because, although Robi is perfectly correct...

GRACE: Well, have you ever had a car wreck?

KOBILINSKY: I certainly have.

GRACE: Well, I certainly have, too. Eight, as a matter of fact. And I remember each one very, very well.

KOBILINSKY: Yes, yes.

GRACE: And if I were hit going straight into another car, I think I would remember what I saw.

KOBILINSKY: That`s true. Well, there`s a negative side too. If one of them claimed that they saw the vehicle, they could have influenced the second one, and then there would be an agreement. So it`s still very questionable.

GRACE: Wait, what now?

KOBILINSKY: I`m saying that, when you have two people that are looking at something and one says, "I`ve seen this," you know, "this was the car," the second one tends to agree with the first.

GRACE: Well, that`s if they know about each other`s statement.

KOBILINSKY: Right. In other words, it`s not independent.

GRACE: But wait a minute. Wait a minute. David Schwartz, defense attorney, Kobilinsky`s right. But the reality is, this gardener has not had contact with the woman living in the racquetball club.

DAVID SCHWARTZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I mean, it`s incredible, Nancy. The gardener has no credibility whatsoever. 2:30 in the morning, he`s going -- almost sideswipes a silver car going how many miles an hour, maybe 30, 40, 50?

(CROSSTALK)

SCHWARTZ: And then he`s able to see inside the dark car, the three people, and they just happen to be the Kalpoe brothers and Van Der Sloot? This is incredible. I mean...

(CROSSTALK)

SCHWARTZ: They`d better get some better evidence than this...

GRACE: Can you look at the camera, David Schwartz...

SCHWARTZ: Yes, I`m looking at the camera.

GRACE: ... and with a straight face say, any night you`ve been up at 2:30 in the morning, you have no any credibility?

SCHWARTZ: I don`t. Yes, personally, I can`t tell the color of a car at 2:30 in the morning. And I believe most people can`t tell the color of the car at 2:30 in the morning. And they certainly can`t see inside the car to see who is in there. It`s ridiculous.

GRACE: OK, back to Susan Candiotti.

SCHWARTZ: I`m sorry. It`s ridiculous.

GRACE: Susan, before we go to break, tell me again the circumstances under which this gardener says he saw Joran Van Der Sloot and two others in the car.

CANDIOTTI: He says that he was driving at that hour in order to get from his house to someone else`s house that had air conditioning he didn`t. He said that he was driving and suddenly came upon this car that was parked going nowhere on the side of the road. He claims that he was able to recognize three people inside the car as being the three, he believed to be, the two Kalpoe brother and Van Der Sloot.

GRACE: With me is CNN correspondent Susan Candiotti. When we come back, Natalee`s father and stepmother are with us, Dave and Robin Holloway. Please stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVE HOLLOWAY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S FATHER: With the new investigative team -- I`ve got T.J. down there. And I know he`s going dig. He`s going dig into some things that nobody else will give me answers to.

I want him to go back from the beginning. I want the statements from the two uniformed officers that were there with me that night that spent two hours with us, at least their written report that they had that night. And I want them to dig into Paulus Van Der Sloot.

And he`s involved in this. And I want him to dig and dig and find out more information.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WARD: A resident that lives in the racquetball club, approximately six weeks ago, late at night, saw the vehicle in question. She remembers the vehicle because the taillights have clear taillights on it.

And I showed her a picture of the car that`s in question to be belonging to the Kalpoe brothers -- that was seen during the commission of the crime, or shortly after the commission of the crime, where Natalee was missing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. Thank you for being with us.

I want to go straight back out to Susan Candiotti, CNN correspondent on the case from the get-go. This private investigator, T.J. Ward, is literally going from door-to-door and has actually found an alleged witness. Have police in Aruba gone door-to-door. And if not, why not, Susan?

CANDIOTTI: Well, certainly, they`re using techniques that every police organization should be. I don`t know specifically what they`re doing day by day by day. But obviously, that is something they were doing at one point.

But then you also have investigators who were doing this, too. You have all the volunteers. You had the Holloways who were going door-to- door. So you`ve got a lot of help there.

I can tell you this: The Arubans are now accepting help, an offer of help, to offer more of a hand from the FBI, and in two separate ways. In one way, a contingent of people from Aruba -- someone from the prosecutor`s office, someone from the investigative team -- has actually traveled over the weekend from Aruba to the FBI lab at Quantico, Virginia, armed with copies of materials, copies that include interrogation documents, other evidence, even videotaped depositions and statements from witnesses.

And they are going over these now, with the FBI, as the FBI have repeatedly asked to do, quite some time ago. And now they are there in Washington to go over some of these materials with the FBI to ask for their help, to ask for suggestions, to get suggestions from the FBI about possibly what more they could be doing or to offer other suggestions.

GRACE: Well, along that same vein, Susan Candiotti, I want to go to Natalee`s father now joining us, Dave Holloway, as well as her stepmother, Robin Holloway.

Dave, I don`t know if you`ve seen this letter from the prime minister, the minister of justice, in Aruba. Have you seen that letter? It`s where they are authorizing the FBI to have -- FBI to have more involvement?

DAVE HOLLOWAY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S FATHER: I think I ran across it several days ago. But I`m thrilled that the FBI is now involved. This gives us another set of eyes to look at what`s going on.

GRACE: Well, Dave Holloway, I`m thrilled, as well. I wish it had been sooner, but better late than never.

But, Rosie, could you and Brett (ph) please put up portions of the letter?

They didn`t even spell Natalee`s name correctly. They spelled it Nathalee, "NATHALEE." "We would like to confirm the instructions to you to use all legal means necessary to guarantee the involvement of the FBI in regards to the investigation."

I`ve got it right here. Take a look at this. "Nathalee Ann Holloway, family Holloway." This is from the minister of justice and they can`t even spell the name right.

Dave, that does not inspire a lot of confidence.

D. HOLLOWAY: Well, maybe he needs someone to proofread his letters before he signs them and sends them out. But, you know, mistakes are going to happen. And, you know, I didn`t see it myself. In fact, I may have seen it on the Internet or whatever. And I did not notice, as well, so...

GRACE: Well, this is the first one I saw. It`s from the prime minister, for Pete`s sake. And, OK, I`m concerned.

What do you think about these two witnesses, the one -- the gardener that has come forward police, as well as the woman that T.J. Ward found?

D. HOLLOWAY: Well, that`s great. You know, every time you add something to the scales, it`s going to -- you know, it adds up. You know, something is better than nothing. And so far, we`ve really had nothing. So the more you add to it, the better case you build.

GRACE: We`re showing you a shot of this racket club, a racket club in which now two witnesses placed Joran Van Der Sloot`s silver Honda-type car, having two people -- no, Ellie, who? Kalpoe brothers` car. Thank you. Thank you.

Take a look at this. Now, T.J. Ward, the private investigator, has gone literally door-to-door speaking with people. Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, MOTHER OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY: We are just doing everything we possibly can in helping to, you know, further this search for Natalee.

And we have had a group of friends that have come forward. And they are helping us now to make it possible -- we`re going to be able to now raise the reward for the safe return of Natalee from $200,000 to a million.

And we`re just so hoping that, you know, just any information that someone has or -- they will just feel comfortable to please come forward.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Tonight, $1 million on the line for the safe return of Natalee Holloway. I want to go back to her dad, Dave Holloway.

Dave, that`s a lot of money. What prompted you to raise the reward?

D. HOLLOWAY: Well, we had an anonymous donor who came forward and helped us raise the reward amount. I`m thrilled. Hopefully, something will come about this, and maybe we`ll get some answers and some people really interested.

GRACE: You`re see some newly released video that we got Friday. That`s Natalee right there. Loved, loved, loved to dance, honors student, an American beauty.

Very quickly, Dave Holloway, what do you make of these rumors that Natalee has been kidnapped and is in Venezuela?

D. HOLLOWAY: Well, you know, we`ve heard a lot of different rumors. I mean, when we got on the island, you know, we had a lot of information that, you know, she was here or there or whatever. And all those turned out to be false.

But, you know, we still hold on to the thread that maybe she is off somewhere. That`s my hope. But the police investigation has always come back and indicated that they`re looking into this as a murder case. But as a father and a parent, you still hold on to a possible miracle.

GRACE: With us not only Susan Candiotti, CNN correspondent on the case, but Natalee`s father and stepmother, as well.

Very quickly, to "Trial Tracking." Police on the hunt for convicted sex offender Fernando Aguerro, suspected in the kidnap of 8-year-old Lydia Bethany-Rose Rupp. Aguerro moved into Lydia`s Nevada home after meeting her mother at a church function.

When Lydia`s mother came home from work on Friday, she discovered Lydia, Aguerro, their clothes, the family dog, and all the pictures of 8- year-old Lydia gone. Police have received multiple sightings of Lydia, but still no Lydia, just 8 years old.

If you have any information on Lydia Bethany-Rose Rupp, please call 775-463-6620.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: The reward for the safe return of Natalee Holloway, $1 million as of tonight. Her mother made that stunning announcement today. Her mother, still in Aruba, searching for her girl.

Welcome back, everybody. We are live tonight trying to find out the latest with Susan Candiotti, as well as Natalee`s father on the search for Natalee Holloway. Here in the studio with me, Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky.

Why so long on the DNA results?

KOBILINSKY: Well, this item of evidence could be critical to the case. They`re going to be doing a very careful investigation. The hair has to be ground up into a fine powder. DNA has to be extracted. Then it has to be quantified.

And then it has to be amplified, and then it has to be sequenced. And the sequencing may have to be done forward and backwards. That takes time. No way could they do this in a couple of days. It takes at least a week, maybe even two weeks.

GRACE: Any difference as to whether they have the root or don`t have the root of the hair?

KOBILINSKY: Well, if they don`t have the root, they must do mitochondrial DNA. That`s no problem, but it`s not as precise as nuclear DNA. If they have the root, they will do nuclear DNA and have a very precise figure. They will be able to say with certainty it`s Natalee`s or it`s not.

GRACE: Quick break, everybody. We`ll all be right back. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE "JUG" TWITTY, NATALEE`S STEPFATHER: There`s been rumors out there for many, you know, weeks that we can`t find her on the island here, that she`s possibly in Venezuela, Curacao, all these places. And hopefully, this will help -- you know, if she`s out there, if people have information that they can help us, you know, find her, that they will come forward.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: The reward up to $1 million tonight for the safe return of 18- year-old American beauty and honor student Natalee Holloway.

Very quickly, to Susan Candiotti. What can you tell us about motions filed by Van Der Sloot`s attorney over the weekend?

CANDIOTTI: Well, here`s some interesting moves. Yes, there are, in fact, two motions filed by his lawyer. One of them, he is challenging after the fact the collection of DNA swab taken from his client, Joran Van Der Sloot.

GRACE: On what grounds?

CANDIOTTI: Well, on the grounds that it never should have been allowed to begin with. Remember, a judge allowed it to be taken. But the lawyer`s arguing in his motion that that shouldn`t have been permitted and that he`s going to get a -- and he wants a hearing, and he`s going to get a hearing about that on Wednesday.

GRACE: Now, Susan, don`t you think the horse is out of the barn on that? I mean, they`ve already taken the DNA.

CANDIOTTI: And they`ve collected that to use -- to bank it to use to compare it to any evidence that they might collect down the road. Obviously, they`re going try to compare it to see whether there was any found on that piece of duct tape along with hair, there might possibly be some other body tissue on that tape, so that they can either make a match or eliminate that piece of duct tape as having any connection to this case, or as I said, if they find something else down the road. That`s one motion.

GRACE: OK. What was your other news, Susan?

CANDIOTTI: Yes, the other motion has to do with whether the FBI should be permitted to have access to these depositions, to the witness statements, to have complete access to all of the evidence already collected by Aruban authorities. And again, his position in this case, the attorney for Van Der Sloot, is that the FBI has no reason and should not be allowed, according to the laws of Aruba, to be given that access.

GRACE: Well, David Schwartz, if your guy is innocent, why does he care if the FBI is in on it? He should welcome them and their state-of- the-art crime lab.

SCHWARTZ: Well, I mean, he`s got to protect the rights of his client. Now, obviously, the DNA argument, I agree with you, Nancy, that`s a complete loser. That`s a loser on arrival. At least in the American courts, you know, it`s pretty clear that you can collect any DNA evidence you want.

GRACE: Well, forget that because in Aruba, everything is bass- ackwards.

SCHWARTZ: Yes, and I agree with that...

GRACE: That`s a legal term.

SCHWARTZ: I agree with that, too, Nancy. But you know, the lawyer has to do everything he can to protect his client`s rights.

GRACE: So my initial question...

SCHWARTZ: That`s the way the system works.

GRACE: ... was, if you would be so kind as to answer...

SCHWARTZ: Sure.

GRACE: ... veteran defense attorney, David Schwartz, if his guy is so innocent, and he didn`t touch Natalee Holloway, then what`s the problem with the FBI taking a look at it?

SCHWARTZ: Well, you know -- you know, the bottom line is, Nancy, he`s not out there saying that his client is innocent. He`s there to protect his client.

(LAUGHTER)

SCHWARTZ: That`s the role of the defense attorney.

GRACE: OK.

SCHWARTZ: The role of the defense attorney is not to determine guilt or innocence, it`s protection. That`s why we tell our clients, Don`t talk. And obviously, Van Der Sloot`s been doing a lot of talking, so I don`t know...

GRACE: Yes, well, you know what?

SCHWARTZ: ... where that communication has gone wrong.

GRACE: Penny Douglas Furr, Schwartz is right about that. Van Der Sloot has been doing a lot of talking, Penny. In fact, we think that he has changed his story somewhere between 9 and 15 times. Now, as a defense attorney, Penny -- I`ve seen you in court on homicide cases -- don`t you just want to get under the table and hide and hope nobody notices you when the jury finds out your guy has changed his story 1, 5, 15 times?

FURR: I hate when my clients talk at all, Nancy. But what keeps jumping out at me in this case is many criminal cases are broken when the criminal returns to the scene of the crime. Why was he not being followed? If this witness is correct and this was his car, why were the police not following him? Why was he not being watched?

GRACE: Oh, Penny, Penny, you`re preaching to the choir.

T.J. Ward, private investigator for the Twitty family -- T.J., we have been screaming that from day one -- Impound the car, put a GPS locator on the car. If they had done that, they would have known everywhere these cars went. They let the car sit in the driveway and be driven around for almost two weeks after Natalee went missing. She`s right. Why aren`t the cops telling these people?

WARD: Well, that`s the same thing we go back from the beginning. The things that were supposed to have been done in normal police work were not done in this case.

And I do want to clarify one thing about the witness that -- yesterday that came up, that was found, the gardener -- when he saw the vehicle, the vehicle was parked. And how he identified the parties in the car, Van Der Sloot tried to cover his face up...

(LAUGHTER)

WARD: ... and one of the Kopack (sic) brothers bent down in the back seat. He had already identified them when he rode by. It`s not like he was trying to hit the car or the car was in motion. That car was stopped, and he had a very, very good look at this person that he testified to, from the information we gathered.

GRACE: You know, T.J., you`re a veteran investigator. I`m going to have to pull in a shrink on this one.

Dr. Robi Ludwig, that just thwarted all of the defense claims that this gardener was probably wrong, didn`t see what he saw, because when someone tries to hide from you and you have to look even harder to get a look at them -- there`s nothing to make you look harder than somebody hiding.

LUDWIG: It`s true. And it does sound like there was some foul play, and it does give...

GRACE: Ducking down in the back seat!

LUDWIG: It does give more credence to his story. However, what we know is that with witnesses, you never can know for sure because we`re not tested on our memory. Our memories don`t work that way. So it`s very hard to know whether he`s combining what he saw on the news with what happened that night. Our memories can work that way.

GRACE: You know, I knew you`d have that kind of response, too.

Dave Holloway -- Dave, what do you think about this gardener`s eyewitness account?

D. HOLLOWAY: Well, again, something is better than nothing. And if you have a witness, a witness is better than not having one at all. So I think the defense is going to have to discredit him or something in order to show that he was -- that he did not see something.

GRACE: Well, and the reality is, Dave, they`ve got to discredit not one but two eyewitnesses, one that has him there, parked. Now, what are they doing there, parked in the middle of the night in this same area as this racquet club? And then the lady that -- your guy, T.J. Ward found, that saw this car going by not once, not twice, but three times looking at the area. It`s just like Penny Douglas said. We have caught so many criminals returning to the scene of the crime. What do they want, Dave? Why are they going back?

D. HOLLOWAY: Well, as you may recall, we got onto the island pretty quickly, and that was some of the areas we were moving towards searching. That area is actually about 500 yards from the Marriott, across the -- across a field. And we started our search up near the lighthouse and then was moving back towards the Holiday Inn. So they may have thought that we were onto something or getting close and, I guess, guarding it, maybe. I don`t know.

GRACE: Dr. Kobilinsky, I have seen this many, many times in cases that I prosecuted. People always go back to the scene of the crime. It`s like they`ve got a homing device. They go become to where there is evidence, where there is something to be found. Why?

KOBILINSKY: That`s really hard to say. I guess there`s a curiosity about whether they left something there that might be incriminating. It may just be one of these psychological feelings, this urge.

LUDWIG: It`s almost instinctive.

KOBILINSKY: Yes. I think Robi could address that.

LUDWIG: Absolutely.

GRACE: And very quickly, to Susan Candiotti. Susan, so 500 yards, 500 yards from this spot where the car was parked to the Marriott?

CANDIOTTI: More or less. We don`t have the precise distance there. But I agree with the detective that, in fact -- and I think we said that the car was parked there, and this man literally drove by it and said he almost hit it, came close enough that he was able to get a look inside.

GRACE: And Susan, come on, that makes the eyewitness a lot stronger, that he can recount how one of the guys ducked down in the back seat and the other tried to hide his face.

Susan Candiotti has been on this case from the beginning, CNN correspondent. Special thank you to Susan, as always. And also to Dave Holloway, Natalee`s father, with us tonight. It means so much to us to hear from you. Thank you, sir.

D. HOLLOWAY: Thank you.

GRACE: Everybody, again, the reward for Natalee Holloway`s safe return up to $1 million, $100,000 for information on Natalee`s whereabouts, 877-628-2533. That`s toll-free.

Very quickly, before we go to break, I want to take you down to Florida and the Moringiello case, the multi-millionaire engineer on trial, round two, for the murder of his wife, Hattie. He walked free with a hung jury last time. Very quickly, to Sam Cook, columnist with "The News-Press. Sam, bring me up to date, friend.

SAM COOK, "THE NEWS-PRESS": Well, we`re going to have closing arguments tomorrow sometime, and then it`s going to go back to the jury again and we`re going see if this one can come up with a verdict because 11 months ago, they couldn`t. Not the same jury, of course, but...

GRACE: Sam, let me get...

COOK: ... the same situation.

GRACE: Let me get something straight. The murder weapon belonged to the defendant, correct?

COOK: That`s correct.

GRACE: And the victim had been shot four times in the chest and weighted down with cement blocks similar to the ones in the defendant`s yard, correct?

COOK: That`s correct.

GRACE: Now, those cement blocks, did they have paint and tar on them, just like the cement blocks in his yard?

COOK: You`re three for three, Nancy.

GRACE: All right. I`m going to keep going. The carpet that the defendant ripped up out of his home, he said it was because of a water leak -- did it or did it not have the victim`s blood on it?

COOK: It did, but not as much as they thought they would have on there.

GRACE: OK. When I come back from this break, I`m going to ask you why the last jury hung. With me, Sam Cook, the columnist from "The News- Press." We`ll be right back. We`re live in Florida. Stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RYAN BELL, LEAD HOMICIDE DETECTIVE: He said that as he was driving and as she was following him, he looked back and she was no longer there. He said that when he made it to Connecticut, he was concerned that she didn`t arrive. He then said he continued -- he stayed there for his vacation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you had to describe Mr. Moringiello`s personality to the jury, how you describe him?

ROCCO DITELLO, NEIGHBOR OF MORINGIELLO: Don was always very friendly, easy to get along with. I always felt comfortable being able to do different things with him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, the guy that was so friendly and he was comfortable with, he`s on trial for murder. His wife was found weighted down in the Florida bay near their home. Tonight in Fort Myers, Florida, "The News- Press" columnist Sam Cook and WZVN-TV reporter Stacey Deffenbaugh.

Stacey, I was just quizzing Sam Cook about some of the evidence, but the defense today had quite a different take on that evidence. Explain.

STACEY DEFFENBAUGH, WZVN-TV REPORTER: Nancy, they did. They called six witnesses, most notable, four experts from the Henry Lee Institute of Forensic Science. Now...

GRACE: Wait a minute. Wait a minute! Henry Lee? Would that be the same scientist that was on the O.J. Simpson trial and had been hired in the Scott Peterson murder trial?

DEFFENBAUGH: To my knowledge, it is, Nancy.

GRACE: Oh! OK. Go ahead.

DEFFENBAUGH: All four of those witnesses testified they saw no evidence of a shooting taking place in the Moringiello home. Now, on cross-examination, prosecutors quickly identified reasons why there may be a lack of evidence, things like the extreme heat in Florida, because it was in the sunroom that they were specifically talking about, excessive water on the area they were suggesting, if it had been cleaned up, or the amount of time. Those people from Henry Lee visited the crime scene or the alleged crime scene in October, and the victim, you`ll remember, was found in July. So a three months time difference there.

GRACE: And to Sam Cook -- Sam, didn`t they find in the sunroom area evidence where blood had actually been wiped?

COOK: Right. And you got to remember, too, Nancy, that four bullets went in, but none came out. No exit wounds. And that`s probably -- had to do with the fact that 28 days the defendant or another suspect had to clean up that house.

GRACE: You know what? You`re right, practically a full month. And I find it devastating to the defense, David Schwartz, that flyers of Hattie had been put up in the neighborhood, they were then found in the defendant`s luxury home, and they clearly had Hattie`s clothes. I mean, listen, if you found my cowboy boots laying around, David Schwartz, I would expect you to call 911 immediately. The whole neighborhood recognized the shirt on the body as being Hattie`s shirt, but the husband said it didn`t look like hers.

SCHWARTZ: Yes, I have to agree with you, Nancy. This is the strongest part of the prosecution`s case. Clearly, how this person acted after his -- his wife just happened to go missing -- She`s gone? Oh, she must have left me. Now a body washes up in the bay right near my house. Oh, I`m still not going say anything.

But let`s get back to that forensic evidence. There was one blood droplet found in that sunroom, one blood droplet. This person allegedly shot his wife four times in the house, dragged the body through the house, put the body in the bay, and you`re going to have one blood droplet?

GRACE: Well, what about the carpet? What about the carpet?

SCHWARTZ: It`s evidence of nothing. We don`t know...

GRACE: There`s more blood on the carpet!

SCHWARTZ: We don`t know -- we don`t -- no, there`s not. One blood droplet was found linked to his wife, just one, OK? And we don`t know when it -- when the blood was put there and we don`t know how.

GRACE: OK...

SCHWARTZ: Guess what, Nancy? The prosecution has the burden of proof. They`re the ones that have to prove this case, not the defense. And let`s get to paint chips for a second.

GRACE: Wait a minute!

SCHWARTZ: OK.

GRACE: Before we leave the blood, Stacey Deffenbaugh, tell me about the blood.

DEFFENBAUGH: Nancy, my recollection is there was blood found on the carpet. They had two samples of carpet. One of them did test positive for the possible presence of blood, the other did not.

GRACE: OK so -- and there was blood in the sunroom, as well, correct?

DEFFENBAUGH: Correct.

GRACE: And around the washer -- the clothes washer, right?

DEFFENBAUGH: Correct.

GRACE: OK, you know, David Schwartz, what, when you don`t like the evidence, you just make up something?

SCHWARTZ: No, no. I`m not making it up, Nancy. Clarify that because...

GRACE: You just said there was one drop of blood. That`s not right.

SCHWARTZ: There was blood, but it wasn`t his wife`s blood, wasn`t the victim`s blood.

GRACE: It was her blood on the carpet!

SCHWARTZ: Clarify that, Nancy. There was one -- I read up on this. There was one blood droplet linked to the victim. Let`s talk about the paint chips.

GRACE: No, I want to clear this up.

SCHWARTZ: OK, clear it up.

GRACE: Stacey, was the blood on the carpet the victim`s?

DEFFENBAUGH: Yes, Nancy. One spot tested from the carpet was the victim`s blood.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: David, I have an earpiece in my ear.

SCHWARTZ: One droplet. She said it!

GRACE: But there`s...

SCHWARTZ: OK...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: OK, wait. To Penny Douglas...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Don`t be a bully. I`m going to Penny Douglas Furr.

SCHWARTZ: OK.

GRACE: Penny, what do you have to say about the blood? There`s blood in the sunroom. There`s blood at the washing machine. And there`s blood on the carpet that he conveniently ripped up, washed and had a fan blowing on it. He said he had a leak. Penny, help me out here.

FURR: Yes, Nancy. There was some blood there. I understand there was very little blood, and they didn`t think there was enough blood for four gunshot wounds. But I think one thing that we`re missing in this case is the main source of the arguments were his adult children. And his adult son...

GRACE: Go ahead. I`m sorry. I can hear you, Penny.

FURR: OK. His adult son -- she had expressed fear of his adult son prior to this. His adult son was seen driving her car. He had a criminal history and mental problems. So I think one thing that we`re totally overlooking in this case is the fact that his adult son could very well have done this and apparently died of a heroin overdose...

GRACE: You know what, Penny? I`m a little...

FURR: ... prior to trial.

GRACE: You`ve won a lot of cases, but I`m a little shocked at you.

Robi Ludwig, now the guy`s dead in the cemetery, so let`s blame the dead stepson. That`s convenient!

LUDWIG: It`s a remote possibility, not likely. What we do know is with marital homicide cases, most likely, it`s the spouse. Also, the way this man acted after his wife left him -- that`s his wish. He wished his wife would leave him.

GRACE: You`re right. He waited a solid month, Doctor...

LUDWIG: Yes.

GRACE: ... before he even mentioned to somebody she was gone.

KOBILINSKY: That`s true. Let me address the issue of blood...

GRACE: I got 20 seconds...

(CROSSTALK)

KOBILINSKY: ... coming up over and over. There is some evidence that there was a clean-up that took place. In fact, although there was a very small amount of blood, the appearance of the blood indicated a clean-up. And the washing machine had blood. So you know, if you know what you`re doing, you can clean a scene up and leave very, very little behind, and that`s what seems to have happened here.

GRACE: Quick break, everybody. We`ll be live in Florida when we come back. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: We at NANCY GRACE want very much to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Take a look at Marilyn McCown, 32 years old, disappeared from a laundromat in Richmond, Indiana, July, 2001. Three months later, cops found her car in Dayton, Ohio, all of her clean clothes still in the car. Police still don`t know what happened to Marilyn. If you have any information on Marilyn McCown, call the Carole Sund Carrington Foundation toll-free, 888-813-8389. Please help us.

Very quickly, to WZVN-TV reporter Stacey Deffenbaugh. Stacey, Robi Ludwig said it all in three words: He`s an engineer! He`s a multi- millionaire engineer. He successful. He knows what he`s doing. Of course he can come up with way to hide some of the evidence!

DEFFENBAUGH: Well, the defense is arguing in court, Nancy, that he wouldn`t be sloppy. He wouldn`t dump the gun behind his house. He -- that sort of line of questioning. The state is going to maintain that Don Moringiello did, in fact, kill his wife inside the home. They brought back -- or I should say, the lead the crime scene investigator took the stand again for the third time. The state called him once. The defense has called him twice. He again testified today that he believes this crime was committed inside the home, and just as you have described, was drug through the home, and then Donald Moringiello dumped the body behind his house in the Estero Bay.

GRACE: Sam Cook with "The News-Press" -- Sam, is this defense team the same one that got him a hung jury last time?

COOK: It sure is. They have the -- Wilbur Smith, the Southern boy, slow-talking, and then you`ve got the New Yorker in Joe Viacava, who goes for the jugular.

GRACE: Well, I want to give...

COOK: But I think this -- this idea about the son being involved -- that`s preposterous.

GRACE: Yes, there`s nothing linking him.

But I do have to give David Schwartz his due. I`ve just taken another look at the forensics. The only blood linked to her...

SCHWARTZ: Thank you.

GRACE: ... it hurts me to say it -- is the one spot of blood on the sunroom floor.

SCHWARTZ: I`m vindicated.

GRACE: OK, got to go.

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: You`re right, David. We`ll argue about it again.

SCHWARTZ: Thank you, Nancy.

GRACE: I want to thank all of my guests tonight, but my biggest thank you to you for being with us, inviting us into your home. Coming up, headlines from around the world, Larry on CNN. I`m Nancy Grace, signing off for tonight. I hope to see you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 o`clock sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.

END