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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
London Bombing Investigation Continues; Shuttle Fleet Grounded Again; Echinacea Tested; John Major Speaks Out
Aired July 28, 2005 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, HOST: Good evening, everyone. New arrests, new clues and new fears about terrorists on the loose here in London.
It is 7:00 p.m. on the East Coast, 4:00 p.m. in the West, and as Big Ben is telling you, it is midnight here in London. 360 starts right now.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Captured, a person of intense interest. Is there a connection between a planned secret training camp here in the U.S., the London bombings and a man arrested in Africa? Why do the FBI and British authorities want him?
Remember him? Former British Prime Minister John Major, outspoken once again. Tonight, he tells Anderson those who spread hate in Britain should face the law, or be shipped out.
How safe? If NASA grounds the space shuttle fleet, what about the astronauts now circling the Earth?
Miracle cure or wasted money? Tonight, Americans spend more than $150 million on Echinacea to prevent the common cold naturally. Guess what? It doesn't work.
This is a special edition of ANDERSON COOPER 360, with Anderson Cooper in London and Heidi Collins in New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: And good evening again from London.
More arrests today, more details, and more fear that what began three weeks ago on July 7, that dark day, is not yet finished. And an equally disturbing revelation. Well before the subway and bus bombings here, the U.S. had actually located a man now in Zambian custody in Africa, a man believed to be connected to the first attacks.
CNN's Kelli Arena has more on this development today in Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): While he is now in custody in Zambia, was there a missed opportunity to arrest Haroon Rashid Aswat weeks ago, before the London bombings, bombings in which police believe Aswat may have played a role?
It all started here in Bly, Oregon, where U.S. officials say Aswat allegedly scouted this ranch for use as a jihad training camp, met with potential recruits, and even conducted firearms training.
Fast forward to early this summer. Sources tell CNN Aswat was traced to South Africa. The U.S. wanted to capture him and bring him back to New York, but multiple U.S. sources with knowledge of the case say British authorities balked, because Aswat is a British citizen. While the two sides were negotiating, Aswat slipped away.
PAT D'AMURO, FORMER FBI ASSISTANT DIRECTOR, NEW YORK: We have an extradition treaty with the U.K., and they do become concerned when you are talking about rendering a citizen back to any particular country.
ARENA: Sources say there is an arrest warrant for Aswat under seal in New York. It's unclear whether U.S. investigators will get a chance to question him, and counterterrorism experts say it's also not clear whether having him in custody before the bombings would have changed anything.
D'AMURO: We don't know if this individual, one, is involved, two, if he was involved, would he have cooperated and provided that information, which might have led to stopping a terrorist attack.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ARENA: Officials say there are very high-level negotiations currently under way with Zambia over who will get access to Aswat and when -- Anderson.
COOPER: Kelli, thanks very much.
There have been many ugly and upsetting images in the news in the wake of the bombings here this month. But this may be the ugliest. Take a look. It is an X-ray of a bottle, a bottle filled with explosives studded with nails. The more Scotland Yard learns about the bombs that went off and the ones that did not and the ones that were left behind, the more frightening this plot becomes.
CNN's Matthew Chance reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Plastered across Britain's front pages, instruments of terror, homemade bombs seized by police, designed to maim and kill.
This, a nail bomb. The X-ray shows a bottle stuffed with explosives, wired and laced with steel spikes -- one of several seized by police from a car at Luton railway station, where the July 7 bombers left for London. It is a crude device, say ballistics experts, but deadly nonetheless.
SANDRA BELL, ROYAL UNITED SERVICES INSTITUTE: They are designed to cause as much injury as possible. A bomb that we saw this morning had actually got shrapnel already inside it. So it's not just relying on things that just happen to be hanging around where the bomb goes off that get turned into missiles; it's actually providing its own missiles and shrapnels to cause probably a lot of soft tissue damage and as many injuries as possible.
CHANCE: London has seen the carnage of nail bombs several times in the past. This, the aftermath of an IRA attack in 1982 on a military parade in the city's Hyde Park. Two soldiers and seven of their horses were ripped apart and killed in the blast.
It's unlikely, say experts, that these nail bombs could have caused such destruction on their own, but add more explosives in a backpack, for instance, and detonate in a tight space, like a train, and it could be much worse, as in London's July the 7th attacks.
BELL: You get multiple reflections if you've got actually an enclosed area. I mean, the expanding gases and also the shrapnel, and in this case the nails have been energized by those expanding gases. When they hit, say, like the wall of the train, they will bounce back in again, and that gives them another chance to, you know, to hit somebody.
Now, very, very rapidly, because of the speed at which they -- you know, the shock wave and the blast is actually expanding, it will become, you know, almost a very, very complex picture of missiles flying in all sorts of directions.
CHANCE: It's not known where or when these devices might have been used, but experts note they appear easy to disguise, and small enough to carry.
The nail bombs are common, say experts, as weapons to suicide attacks, killing the bomber for sure, and as many others as possible in the blast.
British police have expressed their disapproval at these images being leaked. It could, they say, damage future prosecutions. But the public here now know what they're up against, and how helpless they might be if the bombers once again get through.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Why didn't British police want to release those images?
CHANCE: That's a good question. I expect they are imagining why they didn't do it themselves. The fact is, they're extremely angry and extremely concerned that these pictures have leaked out, presumably through a U.S. official when they were passed onto the security services here. They are saying they're concerned that these kinds of images that really directly affect their investigation could jeopardize the prosecution at the end of this process. They want to get the charges brought and they want an actual trial. They are saying that this could actually jeopardize that.
At the same time, there is this argument that this is in the strong public interest, people in this country now knowing the exact nature of the terrorist threat they are up against.
COOPER: And they were splattered all over the British papers this morning, as well as some last night. Matthew Chance, thanks very much for that.
As we heard at the outset this evening, there was perhaps a missed opportunity in this case early on, but there have been many seized opportunities as well -- quite a few of them, in fact, in the last couple of days.
CNN's senior international correspondent Nic Robertson reports now on where the investigation stands.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A week since the last attempted bombings, and police were swarming through London's transport network. The ongoing investigation into the attacks, the biggest ever in Metropolitan Police history, costing almost $1 million a day.
The pace of the investigation has been fast: 12 arrests in the last 24 hours; 21 arrests in the weeks since the failed bombings. But the intensity of the investigation and the pressure to get quick results is taking a toll.
SIR IAN BLAIR, METRO POLICE COMMISSIONER: I'm looking at some very tired men and women, very, very tired indeed. And they need all the support they can get, because they're going to be -- it's going to be difficult days ahead.
ROBERTSON: Outside Scotland Yard, police reinforcements are flocking in from around the country. But at least three suspect bombers remain on the loose.
BLAIR: We are at a somber moment. It does remain possible that those at large will strike again. And it does also remain possible that there are other cells who are capable and intent on striking again.
ROBERTSON: For the police, it's a rollercoaster ride -- good luck and bad coming in equal measure. A new photo of a suspected bomber, then a raid a few hours later on his flat. Three women arrested. Then, hours later, nine more people arrested in south London. The stakes to catch the failed bombers could not be higher.
BLAIR: This is not the B-team. These weren't the amateurs. They made a mistake. They only made one mistake, and we're very, very lucky. The carnage which would have occurred had those bombs gone off would have at least been equivalent to those on the 7th of July.
ROBERTSON: Still not clear if the terror cell behind the July 7 bombings that killed 52 people, a predominantly ethnic Pakistani cell from the north of England, is linked to the July 21 cell, most of whom appear to be of East African ethnicity. And although more investigation is required, an apparent admission, a fifth bomb discovered in a London park, could mean there is a fifth bomber still on the loose.
BLAIR: We're conscious of the fact that that bomb is there, and that's got indications for us as to, you know, further possibilities.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Nic, there is so much information for police to go through, so many videotapes, so many calls coming in. How is the pace of this investigation going?
ROBERTSON: The pace is going very fast. But of course, there's so much for the police to do, they are having -- they are needing to bring in reinforcements. They've gone through 5,000 -- they've had 5,000 calls to the hotline, 1,800 interviews, 15,000 videotapes to look through.
COOPER: Fifteen thousand? Wow.
ROBERTSON: Fifteen thousand. That's a lot. That's a lot of man- hours when you think about it. It's wearing them out.
So, while the pace is fast, they're not getting all the successes that they might be getting. And that in itself makes life very, very difficult. It's wasted man-hours. And it all adds up. So, while the pace is fast and we see a lot happening, there's also a lot of dead ends they're going down, a lot of wasted time as well.
COOPER: And there are still two bombers known out there whose names have not yet been released. We'll see -- may that change?
ROBERTSON: It could change. It could change very quickly. We talked to some of the neighbors outside one house. They seemed to know who the man was, so it seems reasonable the police would know. Why haven't they put the name out in the public domain? They probably have a reason. But, we'll see.
COOPER: All right. Nic Robertson, thanks for that.
I spoke earlier today with Sir John Major, the man who preceded British Prime Minister Tony Blair. He's had much to say about the bombings and violent radicals here in Britain. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Do you personally believe they are the work of suicide bombers?
JOHN MAJOR, FORMER BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: It may be they were suicide bombers. It's equally conceivable, it seems to me, that they thought they were going to leave their bombs, or the bombs were going to explode later and they were exploded early to make sure there were no witnesses, because a dead martyr is a good deal better than a live witness. So, I don't think it's proven that they're suicide bombers, but the general belief amongst the police is that they probably were.
COOPER: Much of the focus in the past, even the recent past here in England, has been on foreign elements in Britain. But the notion of home-grown terrorists, young British males who were willing to kill their fellow citizens, perhaps even willing to kill themselves, does that surprise you?
MAJOR: Well, we feared that might be so for some time. There was never any certainty that everybody came in from outside. And I think it's now patently apparent that there are people in the United Kingdom, perhaps who were born here, perhaps who lived here all their lives, who for a range of different and complex reasons are alienated from the Anglo-Saxon way of life and are prepared to indulge in these dreadful acts of criminality. So that does make life more difficult. And it is why the British Parliament will have to look at fresh legislation.
COOPER: The idea of home-grown, British citizens planting suicide bombs, killing themselves, is that something you considered when you were prime minister?
MAJOR: Only in the abstract. We had no evidence that that was likely in the period up to 19 -- in the period up to 1979. Though I think it has to be said our focus up to that date was overwhelmingly on Irish terrorism rather than terrorism from any other source. It was Irish terrorism that was on the front burner.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: You know, you talk to so many British Muslim leaders here and you ask them why might young British men be willing to do this, willing to blow themselves up, kill their fellow citizens, and a lot of them very quickly start talking about the war in Iraq. We're going to hear more on that subject from former Prime Minister John Major later on in this broadcast.
First, though, Erica Hill from HEADLINE NEWS joins us with some of the other stories we're following tonight. Hey, Erica
ERICA HILL, CNNHN ANCHOR: Hey, Anderson. We're starting off, actually, in Texas -- an explosion ripping through a chemical plant in Ft. Worth today. The blast sparked a massive fire with black smoke that could be seen for miles. At least three people have been injured. A team from the Environmental Protection Agency is monitoring the air to ensure chemicals are not dangerous if inhaled. It's just amazing. Look at that. No word actually right now on what caused the blast.
In and around Mumbai, India, more than 500 people killed after record-breaking rains. Most victims drowned, were crushed in landslides or electrocuted. Parts of the region were hit with 37 inches of rain on Tuesday. That is the highest one-day total in the country's history. The rains did stop today. But 16 people, including many children, were killed in a stampede after false rumors a dam had burst.
In Belfast, Ireland, you may never see this again. The Irish Republican Army has promised to stop its campaign of violence, and has ordered its militants to dump their weapons. British Prime Minister Tony Blair welcomed the decision. But the leader of the Protestant Democratic Unionist Party called the IRA's statement a hollow gesture and called for action, not words.
And in London, John Lennon memorabilia on the auction block. Up for sale, childhood drawings, handwritten lyrics, eyeglasses and a few other items. Auctioneers say the goods are valued at more than $2 million.
There you go. Get your bid in while you're there.
COOPER: Wow. See, you do need more than love. You need a lot of cash to get those sort of things.
HILL: Indeed you do.
COOPER: Yeah. Sorry. Erica. It's late. It's late. I'm sorry.
HILL: We'll let it slide this time.
COOPER: See you again in about 30 minutes from now.
All right. I appreciate it. Thank you very much. Tally ho.
Coming up next on 360, keeping a close eye on the Space Shuttle Discovery, docking with the International Space Station, doing back flips for an anxious mission control. Heidi Collins has the latest on the mission and the investigation into what went wrong during the launch.
Also ahead tonight, a very public death. A politician committing suicide in the lobby of a Miami newspaper. Did the coverage of a corruption scandal lead him to kill himself? We're going to have that story.
And a little later, he called for peace but won't denounce all suicide bombings. My interview with a spokesman of a London mosque, a mosque once a hotbed for extremism.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: One day after grounding future space flights, NASA is keeping a close eye tonight on the one flight that wasn't grounded. These are pictures of the orbiting Space Shuttle Discovery, more than 200 miles above Earth today. It docked with the International Space Station.
That, of course, is only part of the mission, though. There is also the task of finding out what, if any, damage occurred to the craft when a piece of insulating foam broke off during the launch.
CNN has just learned that a small piece of foam may have also struck the shuttle's wing. CNN's Miles O'Brien is here now with the very latest.
Miles, what can you tell us? NASA just had a briefing. And Wayne Hale was happy, but...
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's interesting, because it's kind of a good news short-term story, a bad news long-term story.
Let me tell you what they just released. They released some images which indicate that in addition to that big piece of foam, which we've been telling you a lot about, this one that came off two minutes and six seconds after launch, weighs nearly a pound. It's on the order of the size and magnitude of the piece which brought down Columbia two-and-a-half years ago. In addition, about 20 seconds later, a smaller piece, about seven inches in length, fell off the same vicinity, on that wedge-like ramp. And it actually, on radar tracking, went right into the wing. Now, they have checked imagery of that part of the wing and can't find any significant damage.
A couple of things to think about. First of all, it's a very small piece. Secondly, this occurred at 200,000 feet where the air is very thin. And so unlike in the situation of Columbia where the air was very thick, and the piece slowed down very quickly, and so relative to the shuttle had a greater impact, up there, it sort of just kind of floated into the wing.
So as a result, it is troubling in the sense that there was more debris coming off that tank, but good news in the sense that they feel they have a nice intact orbiter.
Let's listen to the deputy program manager, Wayne Hale.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WAYNE HALE, DEPUTY PROGRAM MANAGER: This is the closest to potential here that we have out of all the data we've got. This is a very small piece. It wasn't a big piece that came off. This is about 20 or 25 seconds after the rather large piece of the PAL ramp came off, these three smaller pieces came off that we looked at.
And the only reason we got interested again was they appeared to come closest to the wing. And as I've described, we didn't really see anything on the impact sensors. We have not seen anything in the OBSS survey. So it's entirely possible that it didn't in fact hit the wing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'BRIEN: Of course, you don't know what the OBSS survey is, that's the orbital boom sensor, which is the extended boom which allows them to take a very comprehensive look at the bottom side of the space shuttle, something they haven't been able to do before in 113 missions prior.
So, just to underscore, while the long-term situation is the fleet is not flying until they fix that falling foam problem, the short-term situation is, the crew's in good shape up there.
COLLINS: And probably worth mentioning, too, I know that NASA had been worked on improving that insulating foam. Now they're kind of going to have to go back to the drawing board, or... O'BRIEN: Well, this is number one on the job list in the wake of the loss of Columbia was to go to the root cause, fix the tanks, try to stop those big pieces of foam from coming off.
And so, when they saw that big piece come off here, that was very troubling to them. Even perhaps more troubling, the area where the orbiter attaches to the tank, the so-called bipod, that's exactly where the foam came off that struck Columbia. There were some big divots there. So they made significant redesigns there and still lost foam. So there's a lot of going back to the drawing board ahead for them.
COLLINS: Yes. Fascinating pictures earlier today. The backside. Eileen Collins, stunt pilot --
O'BRIEN: I think she did pretty well. Those Air Force people, they do all right, don't they?
COLLINS: Miles O'Brien, thank you very much.
While tracking Discovery, we discovered quite a bit about the shuttle program. Here's the 360 "Download." NASA's budget for this year is a hefty $16.4 billion. A lot, but it's less than one percent of the national budget.
Each shuttle can carry a crew of five to seven. To date, 600 men and women have flown on shuttle missions. NASA has had five shuttles, Atlantis, Challenger, Columbia, Endeavor and Discovery. This is Discovery's 31st mission.
360 next now, a public official and his very public suicide. What drove a Miami politician to take his own life?
Also tonight, the manhunt in Britain. The connection between some of the suspects and how they've been living legally in the U.K.
And a little later, former British Prime Minister John Major says that terror in Britain has nothing to do with Iraq. We'll have more of Anderson's interview with Major ahead on 360.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tell my wife I love her. Those were among the last words spoken by Miami's former city commissioner. Engulfed in a growing corruption scandal that made him the focus of the media, the politician turned defendant, late yesterday put an end to everything but the questions.
CNN's Brian Todd reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Former colleagues on the Miami City Commission say Arthur Teele was a fighter, instinctively tough, a talented, brilliant politician. They are stunned, they say, that his life unraveled in such dramatic fashion. JOE SANCHEZ, MIAMI COMMISSION CHAIRMAN: I think it's a sad day for the city of Miami. It's a sad day for his family.
TODD: Miami Police say the 59-year-old former city commissioner walked into the lobby of the "Miami Herald" newspaper last night and spoke briefly with a security guard.
DELRISH MOSS, MIAMI POLICE SPOKESMAN: He removes a gun from a bag, a plastic bag, and he puts it to his head. That security guard then retreats and calls the police.
TODD: Arthur Teele was later pronounced dead of a self-inflicted gunshot wound. Earlier on Wednesday an expose about Teele in another newspaper, the "Miami New Times," had hit newsstands. In it, graphic details based on, the paper says, police interviews and surveillance of Teele's alleged participation in kickback schemes, charges that he had taken drugs, and been with a transvestite male prostitute.
The reporter tells CNN he had not spoken with Teele to get comment on the charges. We asked the reporter if he felt his article was the last straw for the former commissioner.
FRANCISCO ALVARADO, "MIAMI NEW TIMES": You know, I've been put in the middle of this just because, I mean, the mere coincidence of my story came out the day he decided to do this. But, you know, his problems were mounting way before this article ever came out. So, I mean, and you know, I don't even know if he even got a chance to read or see the article.
TODD: Authorities had been closing in on Arthur Teele. He'd faced multiple state and federal charges of fraud and money laundering, some of it relating to alleged contract schemes at Miami International Airport.
ARTHUR Teele: That's absolutely not true.
TODD: Teele pleaded not guilty at his federal arraignment last week. But earlier this year, Florida Governor Jeb Bush had removed Teele from his seat on the Miami City Commission after he was convicted of threatening a police officer.
Ninety minutes before his death in the "Herald" lobby, Teele called "Herald" columnist Jim Defede. Defede says Teele spoke mainly about the sexual allegations.
JIM DEFEDE, FMR. "MIAMI HERALD" COLUMNIST: He was very emotional and very distraught. And, you know, it's a -- he was just trying to reach out at that point.
TODD: In one last conversation before he shot himself, Teele called Jim Defede again, and Defede said at that time Teele did not appear so upset.
Brian Todd, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE) ANNOUNCER: Former British Prime Minister John Major, outspoken once again. Tonight, he tells Anderson those who spread hate in Britain should face the law or be shipped out.
Miracle cure or wasted money. Tonight, Americans spend more than $150 million on Echinacea to prevent the common cold naturally. Guess what? It doesn't work. 360 continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: In a moment, former British Prime Minister John Major speaks out about Islam and terror and why some British Muslims may be willing to blow themselves up in the name of God. 360, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: And welcome back. We are live in London. Tonight's "World in 360", more from my conversation earlier today with a man who took over the reins of government here from Margaret Thatcher, the so- called Iron Baroness.
John Major was prime minister of England from 1990 to '97. And among other things, I asked him earlier whether Muslims here in Britain are themselves doing enough to dissuade the radicals among them from turning to violence.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: (INAUDIBLE) said that the greatest restraint on human behavior is never a policeman or a border guard; the greatest restraint on human behavior is what a culture and a religion deem shameful. Have Muslim religious leaders in your opinion done enough to make suicide attacks shameful?
MAJOR: A number of them have done a great deal, but there are also preachers who haven't and have gone in exactly the opposite direction. I referred to them some days ago as people who spit hate at the country in which they live. And I think we do have to address the problem of those people.
We're an open country. We believe in freedom of speech. We're a very tolerant country. But I think when you have a few people who are radicalized -- and I emphasize, it's a few people -- who are radicalized to the extent that they are, then they have to be taken out of general circulation to prevent doing more damage. If they're British, they may need to face the rigor of British law and imprisonment. If they're non-British, I personally would send them back to their country of origin.
COOPER: I spoke to a man today who's running the Finsbury Park mosque. And while he was very quick to condemn suicide attacks here in England, he refused to condemn them in Iraq or in Israel. Is that a problem? I mean, is it a problem that there has been no fatwa or religious edict against suicide attacks?
MAJOR: I think it is a problem. And I would very much like to see one. It's murder. And if you look at the Islamic religion, if you read the Quran, you will find it is a peaceful religion, and it does not justify this sort of random mass murder.
COOPER: You know, it's very interesting, though, you talk to, again, to Muslim leaders, and they are very quick to, when you ask them why this is happening, one of the first things out of their mouths is Iraq. Did the war in Iraq, the British involvement in the war in Iraq, make England more vulnerable to terrorist attacks? MAJOR: Well, it's a very handy excuse, isn't it? But the fact is, terrorism has been growing for a very long time. It wasn't created -- this radicalization was not created by the Iraq war. It existed before it.
What I do think is probably justifiable is that it has provided a focus, and perhaps to that extent, it's a contributory factor to the radicalization we are now seeing.
COOPER: In Malaysia the other day, Cherie Blair, the wife of the current Prime Minister Tony Blair, cautioned against any crackdown, saying -- and I quote -- "which cheapens our right to call ourselves a civilized nation." Do you think her comment is appropriate?
MAJOR: I do agree with that. We are a tolerant nation, and we will continue to lean in the general direction of tolerance. But she didn't mean -- and nobody else means -- that there must be no changes whatsoever in the present circumstances.
COOPER: Sir John Major, appreciate you joining us. Thank you very much.
MAJOR: My pleasure.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Muslim clerics will tell you very sincerely that Islam means peace. Nonetheless, their religion has been a rallying point for terrorists, who have used mosques to hide weapons, to recruit volunteers and to plot murder.
One particular mosque here in London has only recently been wrestled from the control of such militants, and has become a symbol of the struggle between -- that is being waged between Islam's peaceable majority and its violent few.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER (voice-over): Outside a London mosque, a one-eyed Muslim cleric preaches to his followers. His name is Abu Hamza, and in this video, taken several years ago, he was considered one of the most dangerous clerics in Britain, infamous for praising Osama bin Laden and condoning attacks on the British government.
ABU HAMZA AL-MAZRI, ISLAMIC CLERIC: And this government, they -- they are at war. And they should expect what war could be.
COOPER: Hamza was given control of London's Finsbury Park mosque in 1996. Among those attracted to his extremist ideology, shoe bomber Richard Reid, and 9/11 conspirator Zacarias Moussaoui.
Why would the more moderate majority of Muslims tolerate such a radical cleric running their mosque for so long? It's a question the new leaders of Finsbury Park mosque seem to have a hard time answering.
MOHAMMED KOZBAR, FINSBURY PARK MOSQUE: Maybe people didn't know that these people are extremists, or whatever. So they allowed them here, to come and teach people, as an imam or a cleric, without knowing that these people were extremists. So they've been allowed here to stay as Muslims.
COOPER: It wasn't until 2003 that Hamza and his followers were finally kicked out. The mosque was raided by police.
Hamza now faces accusations in Britain of encouraging the murder of Jews, and in the U.S. of trying to establish a terrorist training camp.
Finsbury Park mosque is now under new management, and today two banners hang outside. One promises a new beginning, the other a desire for peace.
KOZBAR: Since we took over this mosque in February until now, things here are very peaceful. No problems at all.
COOPER (on camera): So the radical elements, which had controlled this mosque, really, taken control of it, are completely gone now?
KOZBAR: Yes. Yes. Since February, they didn't come back here.
COOPER (voice-over): Mohammed Kozbar is the mosque's new spokesman. He's condemned the London bombings, but seems unable to explain why some British Muslims are apparently willing to blow themselves up.
KOZBAR: Is it because of the discrimination among -- on Muslims? Is it because of property? Is it because of foreign issues like Iraq and Palestine? All these questions need to be answered, actually. We -- I think this very big reasons, but no way, in any way we cannot justify what happened.
COOPER (on camera): So suicide bombing is not justified in any way, whether it's here or in Israel or...
KOZBAR: No. No. I mean, as I said, and we are talking about here, about Britain. It is not justified in any way here in Britain, to come blow yourself up and kill innocent people.
COOPER: But it is justified in some places?
KOZBAR: No, you see, I'm in a charity commission -- charity organization. We cannot comment on something politics. As a charity, we cannot comment on something politics.
COOPER: But as a... KOZBAR: You need to ask some Muslim clerics on that.
COOPER: But if, I mean, if you -- if you do not categorically say that suicide bombing is wrong, not just in Britain but anywhere in the world, that it's tolerable and acceptable means, why shouldn't it be used here? I mean, why -- if you say it is OK elsewhere in the world, why wouldn't it be used here?
KOZBAR: No, as I said, we have to, I mean, in here in Britain -- it is not an occupied territory. It is not an occupied country, to go and resist the occupation. In somewhere else, like in Iraq or Palestine, I don't know. I'm not justifying what's happening in Iraq now, killing innocent people. This is something else. I'm talking about the resistance in general. You have the right by international law to resist the occupation.
COOPER (voice-over): Kozbar's reasoning may not be all that soothing to nervous Londoners, but he insists things at this mosque, once ground zero of radical Islamists in Britain, truly are changing.
KOZBAR: Now, we have to face it. We have problems. We have to look at it, and try to find a solution for it. But it is not only the Muslim community's problem. It is the whole society, the whole country's. We have to work all together, hand by hand, try to solve this problem.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Coming up next on 360, the search for a suspected London bomber. He is accused of trying to blow up a bus. Tonight, 360 digs deep into his past, to find out the path that may have driven him to terror.
Plus, another deadly day in Iraq. This time, insurgents attacking a train in Baghdad. We'll have the latest on that story.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: There is, of course, a massive manhunt going on right now in Great Britain for several suspected bombers. One of them is a man by the name of Mukhtar Said Ibrahim. Now police are combing his past, and tonight, so are we.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER (voice over): A face lost in a crowd. How did this smiling young man become this alleged bomber? Not for the first time in his life, Mukhtar Ibrahim is on the run. When he was 12, Ibrahim's family ran from Eritrea, a country racked by civil war. They sought asylum in Britain and settled in this house in North London.
Ibrahim went to this London high school. He left at 16. His family says Ibrahim moved out. By 17, we know he joined a small gang of petty criminals, and was convicted of robbery. He served three years, part of it here at Elsbury Jail north of London. One of the gang who was convicted with Ibrahim says the young man was radicalized.
In 1998 Ibrahim returned to London, where he met and moved in with Yassin Hassan Omar, the accused bomber now in custody. They shared a ninth floor apartment here in Curtis House, government subsidized housing. The British public paid $550 of their rent every month.
Ibrahim and Omar left a bad impression on neighbors.
Gary Chang lived across the hall.
GARY CHANG, NEIGHBOR: They did keep dodgy hours, and they were always in and out, in and out. And they would go in, in threes or fours, groups of them.
COOPER: Margaret Philbin's sister lived downstairs and complained about the noise.
MARGARET PHILBIN, NEIGHBOR: Banging, opening the balcony door, shutting it, banging it. Walking very heavily across the floor.
COOPER: On July 21, Ibrahim, Omar and a third man allegedly strapped on bomb-filled backpacks and entered the London Underground together. Ibrahim rode the train from the Stockwell Station for 20 minutes he got out and got on a double-decker bus in the city's financial district.
PETER CLARKE, ANTI-TERRORIST BRANCH: He was carrying a gray and black rucksack and sat on a seat towards the back of the bus with the bag next to him.
COOPER: Police say his bomb did not fully explode. He fled. When authorities released this photo of a then-unknown attacker, his family was shocked, and tipped off police.
CLARKE: We now believe the man on the bus who attempted to set off that bomb to be Mukhtar Said Ibrahim.
COOPER: It turns out that less than two years ago, Ibrahim applied for British citizenship. Despite his criminal record it was granted just last year. He pledged to uphold Britain's laws and values, an oath it took him less than a year to betray.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Ibrahim's family say they have no idea where he is, and they recommend that anyone with information about their son do what they did, pick up the phone and call police.
Erica Hill from HEADLINE NEWS joins us with some of the other stories we're following right now. Hey, Erica.
HILL: Hi, Anderson. We start tonight in Iraq, where a train bombing killed two people and injured four. It was a train in southern Baghdad that exploded after a bomb that was planted on the tracks detonated. The train had been carrying oil to a refinery. In New York City, one of Osama Bin Laden's financial backers gets 75 years in prison. A federal judge gives this Muslim cleric the maximum sentence. The cleric was convicted of funneling millions of dollars to al Qaeda and to Palestinian backed Hamas, an Islamic fundamentalist group.
And across America, what's in the water anyway? A record of number of beaches closed last year because of health warnings. The natural resources defense council said today there were nearly 20,000 clothings -- closings, rather, and health advisories days last year because the water quality was so poor. And it's up 9 percent from the year before. But officials say not all those problems stem from an increase in water contamination, but rather from improved monitoring of water quality -- Anderson.
COOPER: Hmm.
HILL: Hmm. I'm sticking to the pool.
COOPER: All right. Erica Hill, thanks for that. Yes, me, too.
Up next on 360, connecting the dots on terrorism. Investigators look for clues about the terrorists who attacked London this month. We're going to ask whether the U.K. has become a breeding ground for terrorists.
Also a true-false quiz about alternative medicine like green tea. Does it really lower cholesterol? Also St. John's Wort. Does it reduce the effectiveness of birth control pills? CNN's Elizabeth Cohen will join us with the answers.
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COOPER: And welcome back. We are live in London covering the intense manhunt to find those responsible for the terror in London this month. There are many questions about whether it is mere coincidence that some of the suspects have been living legally in Britain. Has this country somehow become a breeding ground for terrorists?
Joining us to try to help us answer some of those questions from Washington, CNN terrorism analyst Peter Bergen.
Peter, we just saw one suspect, Mukhtar Said Ibrahim, came to Britain and -- when he was 14 -- he got a British passport. He was living on the dole. How much freedom does that passport give him? Can he go wherever he wants?
PETER BERGEN, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Basically, yes. I mean, we have a visa waiver program with a number of European countries and the United States. People from Britain benefit from that program, and it's a good program.
But obviously, I think officials are going to look at it fairly carefully given the fact we've had British citizens conducting suicide attacks in Israel, trying to bring down an American airliner back after 9/11, killing Americans overseas, in the case of Danny Pearl, and also conducting these attacks in London. So I think the whole program is going to take -- people will look at it and say are there fixes that can be made.
COOPER: When you talk to Muslim leaders here, as I have been in the last couple of days, they seem reluctant to sort of examine themselves, examine the community, or at least speak publicly about some of the issues that may be existing within the community. Have you found that? And if so, how do you get around that?
BERGEN: Well, I mean, certainly Muslim leaders of course have been quite public about their opinions, and that sorts of the problem. I mean, we've got three radical clerics in London: Abu Hamza who is related to perhaps the mastermind of the London terror attacks, and was a -- Abu Hamza -- the one-eyed cleric who's now on trial in Britain was related to this guy Aswat who may be trying to set up a jihad training camp in Oregon.
We've also got a guy called Abu Kata (ph) who was sort of the spiritual adviser of Zarqawi who is the head of the Iraqi insurgency right now. And the list goes on.
And of course British officials are going to change that now. I think they've got a much more intolerance of people preaching hatred. They're going to be -- legislation I think will be introduced preventing you inciting, encouraging terrorism.
But this is like reinforcing cockpit doors after 9/11. I mean, of course, it's the right thing to do, but the problem is shutting the barn door after the horse has already left.
COOPER: Do you think British Muslims are doing enough? Or more moderate elements within this community, the great majority of the Islamic community here are far more moderate, are they doing enough to sort of develop a sense of shame about suicide bombings?
BERGEN: I think so. I mean, just now we've had a fatwa from some pretty senior British clerics condemning the London terror attacks. And I think that Muslim community I think is doing the right thing, just as it did in this country after 9/11.
But the British government has been more permissive of acts that would be considered intolerable in this country. And I think that will change. And that's not just true of the British government. I think throughout Europe there's been sort of a problem that's of radical clerics inciting people to violence. After all, the pilots in the 9/11 attacks got radicalized in Hamburg, they didn't get radicalized in the Middle East.
COOPER: But I mean, I just talked to one of the men who is now leading the Finsbury Park mosque. And though he said condemns suicide bombings here in Britain, he wouldn't condemn them in Israel. He wouldn't condemn them, per se, in Iraq.
BERGEN: Well, I mean, as you know, Anderson, you've been talking to those people. I think that that may well be a common theme. I mean, the Iraq situation is seen as a defensive jihad by a lot of Muslims, meaning that the Quran allows you to attack people in a Muslim country. And that's a sort of theological problem that we can't solve.
COOPER: Peter Bergen, thanks for joining us tonight. Appreciate it.
BERGEN: Thank you, Anderson.
COOPER: Let's find out what's coming up at the top of the hour on PAULA ZAHN NOW. Hey, Paula.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, Anderson. Thanks so much. At the top of the hour, we follow up on an emotional and very controversial question, can a religious camp change a teenager's sexual identity?
We're actually going to take you inside a conversion camp where gay teens are often given the opportunity to become straight. We'll actually show you that conversion process. It's a fascinating story. And then we will be joined by a man who went through that process himself that will add some additional insights.
Now for more of 360, let's go back to Heidi Collins who is in New York. You've got people everywhere tonight, Heidi.
COLLINS: Everywhere. That's right. Paula, thank you.
Next on 360, you and your health, what you should know about some of the most popular herbal medicines. In fact, Americans spend tens of millions of dollars on Echinacea. But a new study questions its effectiveness in fighting the common cold.
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COLLINS: When you feel a scratchy throat coming on, how many times have you reached for Echinacea? It is the most widely used herbal product in the United States. But a new study from the "New England Journal of Medicine" questions just how effective it is in preventing the common cold. And that got us thinking, how effective are other herbal remedies in treating a variety of health problems.
Here to provide some answers is CNN's medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen.
Elizabeth, true or false, ginger prevents nausea?
ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: That one is true. There have actually been studies, Heidi, that shows that ginger prevents nausea. You want to try to get it in the dried form instead of the fresh form. It's actually more powerful dried.
And here's the tip, what you want to do is try ginger candy if your kids get car sick in the car. Now, for adults you can try things like teas and supplements. Those seem to work pretty well at reducing nausea. And certainly, one benefit of taking ginger for nausea rather than some kind of over-the-counter drug is that it doesn't affect your brain, it's not going to make you sleepy. It's just going to make you feel better.
COLLINS: So, have all the ginger stir-fry I want, right?
COHEN: That's right. That's right. It could make you feel better.
COLLINS: All right. Number two, cranberry juice treats urinary tract infections. True or false?
COHEN: Yes, many of us have heard this. It is false. Can you believe it? You hear it so often. What cranberry juice does do is seems to prevent a urinary tract infection from coming along. And, in fact, some doctors recommend drinking half a cup every day to reduce your risk of getting a urinary tract infection. But once you have it, it's not going to help you.
Now, we saw the cranberry supplements. They actually take what's in the juice that makes it powerful, and they reduce it to a supplement, because some people aren't really crazy about the taste of cranberry juice. So you can also try it that way.
But if you actually do have a urinary tract infection, you really need to go see a doctor because it could lead to a nasty and dangerous kidney infection.
COLLINS: Right. OK. How about green tea? Does it lower cholesterol? True or false?
COHEN: OK. What do you think? It actually does. It does lower cholesterol. There have been some studies in the "Annals of Internal Medicine" that shows that green tea does lower cholesterol quite a bit, about a 16 percent reduction of the LDL, that's the bad kind of cholesterol that you don't want to have. That's because green tea is rich in flavonoids. That's what makes it powerful.
COLLINS: More flavonoids.
All right. Eucalyptus aroma therapy opens up your sinuses?
COHEN: Well, it turns out a lot of people feel this way when they did studies. But it doesn't actually open up your nose. It doesn't open up your passages. They actually checked, it didn't change the nasal mucosa when people inhaled it. But it did make them feel better. And that's important. And lavender, they found when people inhaled that, sometimes it made them sleep better.
COLLINS: All right. St. John's Wort lessens the effect of birth control pills. True or false?
COHEN: That one, unfortunately, is true. St. John's Wort is a very popular drug, one of the top five -- very popular herb rather -- one of the top five. And it can reduce the effectiveness of birth control pills, so be very careful if you're on the pill and taking that particular herb.
COLLINS: Elizabeth Cohen, thank you.
COHEN: OK. Thanks.
COLLINS: Want to go back now to Anderson once again in London -- Anderson.
COOPER: Heidi, thanks very much. I'll be in Niger next week. Hope you join me for that. PAULA ZAHN NOW is next -- Paula.
END
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