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CNN LARRY KING LIVE
Air France Passengers Survive Fiery Crash Landing; Suspect in Natalee Holloway Case Questioned by Behavioral Specialists; Runaway Millionaire Husband?
Aired August 2, 2005 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, an Air France jet with nearly 300 passengers skids over a Toronto runway, bursts into a fireball, and incredibly, no known fatalities. We'll talk with survivors.
Plus, more than two months after Natalee Holloway disappeared, the main suspect is questioned again by authorities. We'll get the latest with Natalee's uncle, Paul Reynolds, in Aruba.
And then, her fairy tale marriage became a nightmare when her rich doctor husband suddenly vanished, leaving behind millions in debt. His wife will join us to take us inside a shocking ordeal.
Also, a veteran prosecutor missing since April. A laptop computer found in a river last weekend, the hard drive missing. We'll get the latest from his anguished family and baffled investigators.
Lot's to do tonight, all next on LARRY KING LIVE.
Let's start on the phone with Roel Bramer, a survivor of the that Air France plane crash.
First, Roel, where were you sitting?
ROEL BRAMER, SURVIVED AIR FRANCE PLANE CRASH: Where was I sitting?
BRAMER: At the very end of the plane. In fact, the very last row. Part of the...
KING: You had flown in from -- flown in form Paris?
BRAMER: Yes. I was -- I was at a wedding in France and just flew in from Paris after a night of partying.
KING: Was it a normal flight until landing?
BRAMER: Yes Everything was fine, Larry. We landed -- it seemed like we were landing a little faster than normal, but the weather was terrible outside.
KING: Were you bouncing around?
BRAMER: Well, no, not during the landing so much. But then after the plane had landed, and once it overshot the runway, it was the worst roller coaster ever.
KING: While it hit the runway, did you realize it might be going too fast?
BRAMER: It seemed a bit that way, but, you know -- you know, it always seems fast when you land. So I can't say that.
KING: Yes, but then there's the pullback -- there's the pullback on the brakes. Usually you feel that when they pull back and you know you're slowing down.
KING: You never felt that?
BRAMER: Well, we were slowing down all right. We were slowing down. It's just that I got the feeling we were slowing down maybe a little faster than normal. And when the people, in fact, were -- you know, some people clap on the plane when the captain lands the plane. People were clapping and -- but then -- then it really -- then it...
KING: All right. What happened?
BRAMER: It really became a pretty wild run.
KING: After it skidded off the runway, did fire break out right away?
BRAMER: No, I wouldn't say. But when the plane came to an abrupt stop in the ravine at the end of the runway, we could smell a little smoke, looked out of the window, and on left side we saw flames. And we then knew that -- to get to the emergency exit as fast as possible.
Actually, the first time I thought it was game over with when we hit the ravine. Then, sliding down the chute, at the bottom of the chute, took one look around and saw flames everywhere, and just realized you don't go back up for a coffee clutch. You run like crazy to get away from that plane as far as possible.
KING: You're in the last row. How far from the emergency exit were you?
BRAMER: Oh, it's just around the corner. Just around the corner.
KING: So you got out right away?
BRAMER: Yes. Yes. Yes.
KING: Are you surprised that no one was hurt -- no one was killed?
BRAMER: Beg your pardon?
KING: Are you surprised that no one died? BRAMER: Yes. Yes. I'm surprised that -- that there were no fatalities in the end, because it really -- it didn't look like a pretty picture to me. And I've had a few close calls in my life, but this is certainly right up there with them.
KING: Anything happen to you?
KING: Did anything happen to you?
BRAMER: I can't quite hear you.
KING: All right. Did -- were you injured at all?
BRAMER: No, no, not really. Just (INAUDIBLE) through the bushes and maybe hitting a couple of boulders. No, nothing that -- that -- that I can complain about too much.
I like Air France, and, you know, I have no particular issues about the whole thing. I'm just at home now, drinking champagne with friends and feeling very relieved that the ordeal is over.
KING: What, did you slide down a chute?
BRAMER: Beg your pardon?
KING: Did you slide down a chute?
BRAMER: Yes, jumped down the chute. Well, you slide down, yes. And that's the kind of time when I don't think people have to say "jump" twice. You just go for it.
KING: And was it raining?
BRAMER: Beg your pardon?
KING: Was it raining?
BRAMER: You're breaking up a little bit.
KING: Was it raining when you hit the ground?
BRAMER: Oh, yes. Oh, totally.
That added to the (INAUDIBLE) of it all. It was really coming down. And so you couldn't really see very much, and you feel very bewildered.
BRAMER: I climbed up the other side of the ravine and got to the highway, and got a ride to the first police car, who then took me to terminal three where, thank god, I was able to get hold of my cell phone by now, because my son was waiting and had heard there was a plane crash of the Air France flight. KING: Would you fly again tomorrow?
BRAMER: Oh, yes. Yes. I've raced across the Atlantic. I've done a few...
KING: Thank you. Roel Bramer, a survivor of the Air France plane crash today. Miraculously, nobody killed.
When we come back, the search goes on in Aruba. We'll talk about then, then some incredible stories ahead.
Don't go away.
KING: Natalee Holloway is still missing, 65 days in Aruba. The search goes on.
They questioned Joran Van Der Sloot by Dutch authorities. He's the only one currently being held.
Before we talk to our three guests in this segment, we have obtained a tape of the young lady, Natalee, speaking on tape. This is home video. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NATALEE HOLLOWAY, MISSING TEEN IN ARUBA: It's Hootie.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hootie Hoo (INAUDIBLE).
HOLLOWAY: Hi, Fran (ph). Just, you know, sitting in the back, cruising over to my place. And you're doing an excellent job.
And I just want to say happy birthday. You know, you look like a new woman. And I'm sure you feel like one too.
And the beach was a blast. I had the best time of my life. And, you know...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you properly buckled, hootie?
HOLLOWAY: Oh -- ooh.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, you're not!
HOLLOWAY: Got that one on tape.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You're caught. OK.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Paul Reynolds, is it tough to hear your niece like that? PAUL REYNOLDS, NATALEE HOLLOWAY'S UNCLE: It's very tough. You know, it's good to hear her voice. You know, it reminds us of the person that we're missing and it's hard to hear.
KING: Yes. A beautiful young lady.
Susan, what happened today with Van Der Sloot?
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Larry, Joran Van Der Sloot, he's 17 years old. He was brought in an unmarked car before 8:00 this morning, very early. He was handcuffed and escorted from this prison into a police station in downtown Oranjestad.
Now, he was brought in, in front of news cameras. We were able to get a glimpse of him as he walked into the police station. And those Dutch behavioral specialists spent nine hours talking to him.
Now, naturally, we don't know precisely want went on, how forthcoming he might have been. However, his defense attorney has told me that Van Der Sloot told the court he had nothing new to add, so he wasn't in favor of this additional questioning. And so we don't know what, if anything, he -- he might have been silent for all we know, but presumably he had something to say.
He did have his attorney present with him during that time. And the FBI was allowed to observe the interview.
And we know also that they're not done yet. He is expected to return for another round of questioning tomorrow.
KING: Casey Jordan, the criminologist and former criminal profiler is joining us from New York.
What do you think they talked about?
CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: Well, I think what they're trying to do is really bring in these behavioral specialists to make sure that even the police did a lot of interviewing before, this is an interrogation. This is all about testing information that he's given them before, double-checking him, probably trying to catch him in deceptions, use those against him, and use a lot of behavioral techniques, mirror imaging, focusing on the language that he uses, on word choice, and watching things as simple as perspiration, eye movement, that sort of thing, to steer the conversation. And again, try to get some chinks in his armor.
But for all we know, again, as Susan said, he could have the wall of Jericho up and just refuse to cooperate at all.
KING: Paul, you had said previously on this program that you believe he is the prime suspect. That belief still holds?
REYNOLDS: Absolutely. We know -- we know he's guilty.
You know, we don't know exactly what he did, but we know he did something. We know he knows where she is. We want him to come forward. You know, we feel his father is giving him bad advice. I think the advice that he's giving his son, just to be quiet, I think it's going to ruin his life.
And, you know, he could encourage his son to come forward with the truth. If there was an accident -- and there very well may have been an accident -- he could come forward with that and release everyone from this tragedy and, you know, help us move forward.
So I just encourage his father to give his son good advice and come forward with the truth.
KING: What's the key factor, Paul, that tells you it's him?
REYNOLDS: We've known that since the first day, since my sister and her husband arrived on the island. We saw them with her. He admitted having her in the car.
We know she was there, the multiple lies that they've told, the suspicious nature that they've exhibited, along with their father, the things that they've said, and clues in the interrogation. We know they have involvement. And we want them to come forward. And it's going to help them move forward with their lives, as well as us.
KING: Susan, did the attorney for the suspect, for want of a better term, give -- say anything? Was he encouraged by the questioning? Did he -- discouraged? What was his attitude?
CANDIOTTI: Well, Larry, because the rules there are very strict in Aruba, this defense attorney said he is obligated by the law there not to divulge anything that transpired during the course of the questioning. He said he must abide by those rules and declined to even characterize how things were going.
Now, naturally, we'll keep asking those questions, but a big question is whether they were able to move this case forward in any way. Because, remember, police have already said, Larry, that Joran Van Der Sloot has given them different versions of what happened the night Natalee disappeared.
So that's not the question. And some even question whether he was even given -- if he were given a lie detector test, which is not permitted under Aruban law, but if he were, some say it wouldn't do any good at this point, because they believe they already know that he's lying, in their opinion, and that it wouldn't necessarily tell them anything they don't already know.
KING: Casey, even though we don't have a body of any kind, are you puzzled as to why he hasn't been arrested and charged?
JORDAN: Well, he's told a number of different stories. It's the contradictions in the stories that are the key. I think that they are really trying to get enough information where -- to where they could locate a body.
The issue with Joran at this point is a waiting game. He has been there for, what, 60 days or so. He knows that they can't hold him past -- I forget what it is exactly -- 100, 120 days. He has another two months to wait this out.
And it's a logic game for him. If he can win that race of waiting them out, just continue stalling, telling the same stories over and over again, shrugging when there are contradictions, can't remember, doesn't know, and get to the end of that legal period for his incarceration without arrest, then he can walk free.
KING: Paul, have they told you -- Paul has to leave us, but one other quick question. Have they told you that they have enough evidence to go forward at all?
REYNOLDS: They haven't told us what evidence they have, but we're going to solve this case. And the truth will come forward.
You know, witnesses are coming forth now. More evidence is being found. The records will be put together.
The truth will not escape us. And we will find out what happened. I just encourage them to come forward now and, you know, help everyone move forward with their life.
KING: Thank you. Paul Reynolds, who has to leave us -- we have about another couple of minutes -- Natalee Holloway's uncle.
Susan, what happens next?
CANDIOTTI: Well, as we said, the questioning will continue, is scheduled to continue in the morning again. They will bring him in handcuffs back to the police station for another round of interviews with these behavioral specialists.
We presume that they are videotaping these, because I know the authorities have told us that they have videotaped other witnesses. So this will also provide authorities with another avenue to study what he is saying or what he isn't saying.
However, it is important to note, as some of your guests already have, clearly, there is not enough evidence to bring this young man forward to a trial. That's how it works in Aruba.
And if there are no sufficient grounds, they won't be able to do so. Although, there is a two-year window of opportunity for authorities to eventually bring him to trial if they feel there is enough evidence.
KING: And Casey Jordan, do you think we're going to get a resolution?
JORDAN: I'm losing hope, simply because of the lack of forensic evidence at this point. I love that there are behavioral specialists in there. The point is they're there two months too late. You really need to go for that early window of opportunity and vulnerability if you're going to get the answers. I think at this point, he's told so many lies, he doesn't even know what the truth is. It's deep inside of him. But they're going to have to appeal to his logic more than his emotions at this stage of the game.
KING: Thank you, Paul Reynolds, Susan Candiotti, and Casey Jordan.
When we come back, an incredible story. Michelle Kramer, her husband -- apparently fairy tale marriage -- goes missing and she learns a lot afterwards. We'll talk with Michelle right after this.
KING: We now welcome to LARRY KING LIVE, visiting from Chicago, Michelle Kramer. Here's the story.
Michelle's seemingly fairy tale life turned into a nightmare last year when her husband, Dr. Mark Weinberger, disappeared while they were in Greece, supposedly to celebrate her 30th birthday. This was a fairy tale wedding.
Dr. Weinberger, she finds out, left behind a mountain of debt, multiple malpractice lawsuits, and a lot of ugly questions. Weinberger's medical license has been revoked. The office of Indiana's attorney general and the FBI are pursing the case.
And you don't use the last name anymore, right?
MICHELLE KRAMER, HUSBAND VANISHED: Correct.
KING: And have filed for divorce?
KING: What -- first of all, how did you meet Dr. Wineburg?
KRAMER: I met him at a club/restaurant in Chicago prior to my thoughts I was going to move out to San Diego. And I met him, and he swept me off my feet. And within four days, I changed all my plans.
KING: And were married how soon after?
KRAMER: We got engaged six months after I met him, and then probably a year.
KING: Was he a specialist?
KRAMER: He was an EMT and facial plastic surgery specialist.
KING: And how long did it last? How long before you went on this trip?
KRAMER: The trip where he disappeared?
KING: Yes. KRAMER: It was -- I knew him for about five years.
KING: So you were married five years?
KRAMER: We were married for I guess three years.
KING: OK. No children?
KRAMER: No children.
KING: OK. Madly in love?
KING: Was the marriage happy?
KRAMER: It was.
KING: Where did you go on that trip?
KRAMER: On that trip we went to Mykonos, and it was my 30th birthday celebration.
KING: That's in Greece?
KRAMER: In Greece. And my mom and three of my friends came. And it was -- it was supposed to be, like, one of the best trips of my life. And it turned out to be a nightmare.
KING: What happened? Did you -- you woke up one day he's gone? What happened?
KRAMER: Basically. I mean, for two months prior, he was decompensating emotionally from a bunch of lawsuits that were stressing him out really badly.
KING: That you knew about?
KRAMER: I knew about that. We discussed it.
KING: Malpractice kind of lawsuits or...
KRAMER: Malpractice, and then some lawyers were trying to say that he was doing unnecessary surgery.
KING: OK. But you knew about that?
KRAMER: I knew about that.
KING: Then what happened?
KRAMER: And I was encouraging him to fight. At that point, I was pregnant. So...
KING: What happened to that?
KRAMER: There was so much stress between us and -- I don't know if that was the reason, but I did have a miscarriage maybe two weeks prior to the trip to Greece.
KING: OK. And the day he went missing, what happened?
KRAMER: The night before we went out for dinner, as we usually went out for dinner. And as I was falling asleep, we had gotten into a little bit of a tiff that evening. But as I was falling asleep, he said, you know, "I love you. Best friends never leave each other."
We clinked our wedding rings together, something that we did on occasion throughout our marriage. And a few hours later -- that was like 3:00 in the morning -- 6:00 am, he got up and was gone.
I felt the bed next to me and just assumed that he went jogging. I guess cognitively I assumed he went jogging, but in my gut I knew something was wrong.
KING: And have never seen nor heard from him since?
KING: This was how long ago?
KRAMER: Almost a year.
KING: Now, how did you start to learn about these other things? What happened? The FBI, a criminal. That's not a lawsuit. What happened?
KRAMER: Yes. The clues started coming in rather immediately, from the point that I realized he wasn't coming back.
I called his clinic and I found out that, you know, we just started piecing things together. There were a lot of strange facts to the case.
He apparently had siphoned a lot of money from his business out. So, you know, at that point, I knew that he ran away, he didn't disappear.
And he had bought a bunch of diamonds prior to leaving. He had put a lot of his money into diamonds, taken the diamonds with him.
He had this strange room at the clinic where he would put survival gear and gear to possibly, I think, live on a sailboat. He packed all of it up and took that suitcase with him when he left. And, you know, then, once I got home, I started realizing the debt.
KING: What is the criminal suspicion?
KRAMER: They -- I think -- I mean, it's pretty obvious to me that he committed bank fraud in the end, because he siphoned all that money out of his business and from the banks. I think that they're also trying to prove that he was doing unnecessary surgeries so that he was committing insurance fraud. That I think is completely unfounded.
KING: You believe him there?
KRAMER: I believe him there, because professionally he was an excellent doctor. Emotionally, he wasn't able to handle the criticism.
KING: Did you have any hints that he might be a scoundrel?
KRAMER: No hints that he was going to be a scoundrel. I knew that he had a personality disorder.
KRAMER: Narcissistic personality disorder.
KING: He couldn't pass a mirror he couldn't look at?
KRAMER: You know, in a way. It kind of comes from at the core he had really low self-esteem. So he needed constant adoration, he constantly wanted to succeed and take on bigger and bigger conquests. But really, underneath it all, it's because he felt badly about himself.
KING: You had to go before a grand jury?
KRAMER: I did.
KING: Investigating what?
KRAMER: Investigating -- I think they're trying to figure out where his bank accounts are. But they were also asking me if I had knowledge of these bank accounts.
So, after I came back from Cannes -- I was sort of looking for him during the film festival -- I was pulled in by Customs and then went to the grand jury.
KING: You had a huge wedding right?
KRAMER: Three different weddings with him, actually.
KING: Three different weddings?
KRAMER: Yes. We had a small ceremony in Chicago, because my father was ill. And then we had a grand blessing ceremony in Italy. And then we came back and had a really big reception in Chicago.
KING: So, this was -- this had to be, except for the lawsuits that you knew he had, an enormous shock to you to learn of criminal activity, diamonds. What do you make of diamonds? KRAMER: I think he was kind of losing his grasp of reality in the end, but he was trying to liquidate his cash into something that he could carry with him easily. So I just thought it was -- I mean, the more clues that came in, the stranger the story got.
KING: Did he live large?
KRAMER: Really large.
KING: Spend a lot of money?
KRAMER: It was a like a rap video, yes.
KING: Yes? Any fear of bankruptcy? Or did you ever fear you didn't have the money you thought you had?
KRAMER: No. When I met him, we had a relatively normal life. And then once he opened his surgery center, things exploded financially.
KING: Before the surgery center, what did he do?
KRAMER: Before the surgery center, he would do surgery at other people's surgery centers. So he had the life of a successful doctor. But after he opened the surgery center, it became private jets, yachts.
KING: The clinic was in Indiana?
KING: But you lived in Chicago. Was it right nearby?
KRAMER: About an hour commute.
KING: Was it mostly artistic surgery? I mean, to help people look better, rather than doing accident work?
KRAMER: Most of the time he did endoscopic sinus surgery.
KING: What does that mean?
KRAMER: He would use a non-invasive technique to help people with their sinus problems.
KING: Oh. So he fixed sinus troubles?
KRAMER: He was the nose doctor. So he did anything with noses. Sinus surgery was the majority of his cases, but he did some rhinoplasty.
KING: Do you have any thoughts that he might not be alive?
KRAMER: No. And I have clues from the last two months that he actually is alive and kicking.
KING: We'll pick up on that in a minute. The mystery continues with Michelle Kramer. We'll be right back.
KING: That looked pretty romantic.
KRAMER: It was.
KING: Have you spoken to his family?
KRAMER: On and off a few times.
KING: Who's living in his family? His mother and father living?
KRAMER: His mother passed away, but his father is alive and...
KING: What do they think?
KRAMER: He's hurt very badly. He actually loaned Mark a lot of his retirement money. So...
KING: Brothers and sisters?
KRAMER: Two brothers.
KING: What do they think?
KRAMER: They're hurt as well.
KING: Now, you say you've got clues that he's somewhere. What were they?
KRAMER: Yes. In November, I got some of his credit card statements showing that he was in casinos in Monte Carlo and all over the South of France. So, at that point, I went out there to look for him. And that...
KING: Wow. So, you're still in love with him then?
ZAHN: At that point, I was still, you know, thinking that he was going to come back for me. I was in denial. I was like: There's no way that my best friend could leave me. So, I was out there searching for him and since then, I've moved on emotionally. But a month ago, I found out that he actually paid off $10, 000 on one of his old credit cards. So, he must have trouble establishing new credit. I can't imagine who else would pay off his credit card.
KING: Where did he get the 10 from? Made money gambling, you think?
KRAMER: No. I think that was more a way --
KING: Diamond sales? KRAMER: I think maybe he's trading online. I found books on that.
KING: Are they searching for him overseas?
KRAMER: Nobody is searching for him yet. The FBI, I don't even believe is searching for him.
KING: Because they don't have a true criminal charge?
KING: They can't prove that he defrauded the bank?
KRAMER: They knew...
KRAMER: He has not been charged with a crime?
KRAMER: They need to indict him yet.
KING: They have not indicted him?
KRAMER: I don't believe that they have.
KING: So, if they haven't indicted him, they're not sending out search patrols for him? Right now, he's just a missing guy and he's an adult? He can be missing, right?
KING: You have a Web site?
KRAMER: I do.
KING: What is it.
KRAMER: It's www.MissingDoctorMW -- Mark Weinberger -- at blogspot.com.
KING: MissingDoctorMW at what?
KRAMER: B-L-O-G-S-P-O-T.com. Blogspot, it's like...
KING: What do you hope to do with that?
KRAMER: If anybody has any clues, if anybody's seen him. I believe he's in the Mediterranean basin going...
KING: Well, we're seen there. We're seen all over the world.
KRAMER: France, Italy, Spain. If you know this person.
KING: What should they do? He's not charged with a crime.
KRAMER: Right. Just if you could give me clues or direction, like a town that he's in. I don't know. That would be nice. I have $6 million worth of debt. So...
KING: You're in debt $6 million?
KING: Why? You signed on to the papers.
KRAMER: I signed on for the yacht and property in the Bahamas. I just would sign anything that he put in front of me.
KING: Are you working?
KRAMER: No. I'm in graduate school.
KING: Taking what?
KRAMER: I'm getting my doctorate in, ironically, psychology.
KING: You know, you need it. Is any of these debtors pressing you? You don't have the money, do you?
KRAMER: Creditors call me 24 hours a day. I just try not to listen to that.
KING: But don't they understand your story?
KRAMER: I don't know. I think that they -- I don't know exactly what they want, because I don't have any money.
KING: How about Internal Revenue?
KRAMER: I don't know if I have any problem with his them yet. He might.
KING: Do you think he might have fraud there?
KRAMER: I think before he left, he might have -- I really don't know. But I went back and did 'married, but filing separately' on my last tax return. So, hopefully my name is not associated with...
KING: When will you be divorced?
KRAMER: As soon as possible.
KING: Now, Michelle, what do you make of it? What's your read on all this? Madly in love, best friend, touched wedding rings?
KING: What's -- what -- what?
KRAMER: I think during the five years that I was with him, it was a fairy tale and that was his highest level of functioning. That was the best that he could do when his business was thriving, but I think that his fragile ego and the narcissism and onslaught of criticism that came from the lawsuits, just caused him to show, you know, cowardice and just turn tail and run basically.
KING: But he gave you no indication of that during the marriage -- that he was that bad off?
KRAMER: No indication that he would ever leave me. I mean, he talked a lot about how upset he was about the lawsuits and paranoid and even, you know, was like: If we went to go move to Greece together on an island, how would you feel? And I'm like, "that would be excellent."
And he was like: Well, what if you couldn't see your mother again or your, you know, your godchild Marissa (ph) again? And at that point, I'm like, "I don't know exactly what you're talking about." But -- so, he was running around with the idea for a while. I just didn't realize how serious he was.
KING: Well, this is a tragic thing to live through. You seem to be well within yourself now.
KRAMER: I've come very far in the last year. I mean, I -- there are points where I was, you know, just listening to our old songs and crying and looking up at the moon and thinking he was looking at the same moon.
KING: He might be watching you now.
KING: For more information -- if you have any information, www.MissingDoctorMW@blogspot.com
When we come back, we'll take some phone calls and then, we'll talk about a missing prosecutor. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just want to say this was the best vacation, ever. I love you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I love you, baby.
This is a great vacation. This is the best vacation, ever. I'm so relaxed and I have Marky all to myself. yes. Yes, Marky.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. I'm holding him as prisoner until he has to go back to work eventually. I really love him a lot.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That was so much fun. (LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: We're back with Michelle Kramer. By the way, have you been dating?
KRAMER: Yes, I'm beginning to date.
KING: Well, I mean, you've come through this.
KING: Do you think you might have less faith in men?
KRAMER: I don't want to sound ingenuous or naive, but I still believe in true love and I still believe that I could the right person and be happy.
KING: Suppose you meet a guy that says, "come on, honey, let's -- I've got an idea, it's our first day, let's take a private plane an go to San Diego. Come on my plane." You going to question if it's his plane? Are you going to think twice? You've got to be skeptical.
KRAMER: You know, maybe I am a little bit more cautious now, but I still believe in true love. I'm still a romantic and idealist.
KING: Do you think he still loves you?
KRAMER: I don't know. I don't even know who he is anymore.
KING: Pompano Beach, Florida. Hello.
CALLER: Yes. Hi, Larry. I love your show.
KING. Hi. Thank you.
CALLER: Who paid for the four weddings?
KRAMER: That would be Mark Weinberger, my husband.
KING: He paid for them?
KRAMER: Yes, he did.
KING: Normally, the bride pays, right?
KRAMER: I guess it should have been my father's responsibility, but no, Mark paid.
KING: Why so many weddings?
KRAMER: We were planning on just getting married in Italy and then, my dad was diagnosed with lung cancer. So, we had a real quickie wedding in Chicago so he could walk me down the aisle. And then, once we went to Italy, we realized that there was some disgruntled family that wanted a reception. So we had a reception in Chicago. And I wasn't aversive to it, because I was like, oh, three weddings, that sounds like a celebration of...
KING: Your father still living?
KRAMER: He passed away shortly after the first wedding.
KING: He never got to see Mark disappear then?
KRAMER: No. And you know, if he did, he would be, like, scouring the globe looking for him, I'm sure.
KING: He was that kind of guy?
KRAMER: Very overprotective.
KING: What kind of doctor was Mark? I mean, how good a doctor was he in the layman's opinion?
KRAMER: He was the best. You know, I'm not defending him as a human being, but as a doctor, I mean, he went to UCLA Medical School. I mean, he was jut an excellent, you know, detail-oriented type of a person.
KING: People at the clinic liked him?
KRAMER: They did. He was hard on his employees, though. I mean, he expected, once again, with the whole narcissism thing, he expected everyone to cater to him and give 110 percent, always.
KING: What do you guess went wrong?
KRAMER: I guess that he was thriving when things were great, and he just wasn't able to roll with the punches of life. He was, you know, a cowardly man in the end, and his fragile ego couldn't handle all of these lawsuits and all this criticism. He was kind of like Cartman in a way, you know, screw you guys, I'm going home, and like took his ball and left the country.
KING: Yeah. OK, www.missingdoctor.mw.blogspot.com.
KING: All right, any information, anybody thinks they've seen the face we've been showing...
KING: They can go right on that Web site, right?
KING: And contact you. I sure hope everything works for you.
KRAMER: Thank you very much.
KING: And I hope your belief holds up.
KRAMER: I hope so too.
KING: And I hope you don't get treated like this again.
KRAMER: I won't let that happen.
KING: Now, we come back when -- when we come back, another missing persons story. This is the missing prosecutor. They found the computer today. He's been missing a while. We'll have a panel get into that right after this.
KING: On April 15th of this year, the district attorney for Centre County, Pennsylvania, Ray Gricar, vanished and has been missing ever since. To discuss this puzzle, in Dayton, Ohio, is Tony Gricar, the nephew of the missing prosecutor. In Altoona, Pennsylvania, is John Clay, the anchor with WTAJ, who's been covering this story and has had several exclusive interviews with the missing prosecutor's girlfriend. In Altoona, Pennsylvania is Chief Duane Dixon of the Bellefonte Police Department. And in New York, our dear friend, Kimberly Guilfoyle Newsom, Court TV news anchor, co-host of "Both Sides," former assistant district attorney in San Francisco.
All right. John, what's the latest on all of this, John Clay?
JOHN CLAY, ANCHOR, WTAJ-TV: Well, the latest is that they have discovered Ray's work laptop computer right near where the spot was that he left his car. And this is a crucial spot, about 45 minutes away from Bellefonte, where Ray Gricar was a district attorney -- that's a county seat for Centre County. And so, basically that was one of the key pieces of evidence that investigators were trying to get ahold of here. You know, three and a half months later, they discover this laptop in the river near where he left his car. And they pulled it out, but, lo and behold, it's missing the hard drive, which, of course, would have really been the thing that they wanted to get ahold of and find out what he might have been using that laptop for.
KING: Chief Dixon, is there any chance Ray is alive?
CHIEF DUANE DIXON, BELLEFONTE, PA, POLICE DEPARTMENT: We're still holding out hope, but as time goes on, you know, I'm led to believe there's a possibility he's probably not.
KING: Tony, as his nephew, did you know anyone that wanted to harm him?
TONY GRICAR, MISSING PROSECUTOR'S NEPHEW: No. You know, outside of anything from his case history, there's really nothing that speaks to any kind of foul play specifically from that.
KING: So, you don't know of anyone who had any rub against him, other than somebody he might have convicted? GRICAR: No. There's nothing, really. This is his last year in office. He wasn't seeking another term. So really, this year was, I guess, more of a lame duck year for him with his case load.
KING: Kimberly, does this give you pause?
KIMBERLY GUILFOYLE NEWSOM, FORMER SAN FRANCISCO ASSISTANT DA: It absolutely does. And I think the discovery of the laptop with the hard drive missing really just shouts foul play.
This is a man who served with distinction for two decades as a prosecutor. Prosecutors in general are responsible people that don't run out on their family members and loved ones. He enjoyed a loving relationship with his girlfriend, a close relationship with his daughter and with his nephews, and he was set to retire in December.
This was a man that had done it all right, had everything to live for, certainly wouldn't be someone who would walk away. I really do suspect foul play. I think it's so disheartening that there haven't been any other clues except for this laptop. And of course, I'm sure they've checked into everything, his financial state of affairs, all the cases that he has handled. I've kept records of all the cases I've done.
You know, being a prosecutor, you're a public servant, and you meet a lot of people that aren't too happy to be put behind bars. And I'm sure they're being very thorough in checking out any cases he was working on and those people that he has put away.
KING: Tony, he was very proficient in computer skills. Might he have popped the hard drive himself?
GRICAR: You know, he could have. Most laptops, at least that I've used recently, have a hard drive that's removable. It's usually a couple-step process, and sometimes it has a set screw. So it's, you know, not outside the realm of possibility, but you know, what's the point of it, I guess?
KING: Chief, any forensic evidence?
DIXON: No. We really don't have anything as far as any type of forensic evidence. That's what's really hard about this case. You know, it's still classified a missing person's case, and we have no signs of foul play at this point, other than the time period between when he disappeared and he's still missing at this point.
KING: Tony, your father disappeared, did he not, and was found dead, right?
GRICAR: Yes. Yes. My father actually had a long history of documented bipolar depression. So it's a different case there. So he had a lot of issues in his last year that really made it apparent on his case.
You know, Ray actually went through that with us. He helped me on that missing person's investigation and working with the media, much like I'm doing now. And so, he knows the process that we went through and how destructive it was for the family. So, a walk-away or suicide is a little tough to really believe at this point.
KING: He's your father's brother, right, Ray?
GRICAR: That's correct.
KING: All right. John, what have you learned from the girlfriend?
CLAY: Well, that was certainly a key here, is trying to sit down with Patty Fornicola and find out what, you know, she might have known, specifically in the hours before Ray disappeared. And I think that's really interesting.
You know, Ray, you know, he was set to go into work that day on April 15th, tax day for us. And he decided he was going to drive to Lewisburg. He called Patty, told her that he was going to be late, and that's the last we heard from him, right around 11:15 on April 15th.
He made it to Lewisburg, presumably. His car was found there. And there was an eyewitness that said they saw him the next morning. So you know, the question is, what did he do the night of April 15th? They couldn't get ahold of him on his cell phone. He had turned it off. And Patty says -- here's some other interesting things. Patty says there's nothing missing from the house. He didn't take anything with him, but he did take that laptop. And she says that he really wasn't a lap-top guy and found it unique or strange that he would have taken it with him. And you know, here we find that it was discarded in the river near where that car was.
KING: Chief, any chance that this is a missing person like our previous discussion? Someone who just walked away?
DIXON: We're still looking at that possibility. We've always been trying to keep an open mind to anything at this point, because like I said, with the evidence that we have, we have to look at the whole scope of things, including that he might have still walked away, which is another reason why he might have -- if he did this himself, he pulled the hard drive out of the computer. So, There might be information on there we might be able to track where he was going. But like I said, that's -- is one of the scenarios that we're still keeping open.
KING: Kimberly, would you guess foul play?
NEWSOM: Well, right now, I think if you eliminate all the other possibilities, for example, there's no history of mental health issues with him. So, I would eliminate suicide, just going based on the evidence that we have.
It would seem to be he's the type of person that wouldn't walk away. Again, we don't want to rush to judgment. We don't know if it's like a Jennifer Wilbanks situation or some of these other cases like the previous one, but nothing else really points to any other direction than foul play at this juncture.
They've gone through, I'm sure, all the bank records to see if there was any withdrawals, any type of evidence to show that there was financial issues or he was planning on going away or taking a trip. What is very suspicious is that the hard drive is missing from the computer. In the end, I think that will speak volumes about what really happened.
KING: Chief, how hard do you work a case like this?
DIXON: We worked it really hard in the beginning, because we had a lot of leads to work on and it wasn't just us. You know, we're working a team effort here with the FBI, the attorney general's office and the state police and numerous other local agencies.
You know, there's been a lot of investigators working on this case and it's just amazing that all the evidence that we've got is really very little and it all goes to dead ends.
KING: What's the principle city in Center County, Pennsylvania, chief?
DIXON: The -- excuse me again, please?
KING: What's the largest city in Center County?
DIXON: It would be State College, Pennsylvania. It would be about 10 miles from Bellefonte.
KING: The home of Penn State University?
DIXON: There you go, Sir. That's correct.
KING: We'll take a break and come back with more and include your phone calls as well. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PATTY FORNICOLA, GIRLFRIEND OF RAY GRICAR: I want for you to come home. Please call us. We will wait for as long as we need to.
LARA GRICAR, DAUGHTER OF RAY GRICAR: I will wait for as long as it takes to hear from you. I miss you so much and I love you and please call.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Let's take a call on this intriguing topic.
CALLER: Hi, Larry. It's Tia.
KING: Hi. CALLER: I'm calling you from Toronto. How are you?
CALLER: Great. I wanted to know what kind of cases this guy was prosecuting.
KING: Chief do we know or Kimberly, do you know? Kimberly, we'll try you. Do you know what he was prosecuting?
NEWSOM: Well, he was their top prosecutor there. That's one thing that he's been recognized with distinction. So, I imagine he was just handling serious felony cases, which is why I think it is so crucial to go through his case load. Not just present cases, but past cases. As a prosecutor for a decade, I kept copies of all my cases.
But again, Larry, as you know, I've received two contracts out to have me killed and been attacked in the courtroom. That's why I got into television. But it's serious business and I'm sure they're going through his case files very thoroughly.
KING: Tony, do you suspect that?
GRICAR: You know, it could. You know, it could be one of those insignificant cases that he's prosecuted in the past, where, you know, somebody does a slow burn. You know, there's really nothing so far, that's kind of raised its head from a high profile standpoint. So, you know, it's definitely -- you know, it's one of those things that could be possible.
KING: Chief, anybody like, recently get out of prison, might have a judge?
DIXON: Not that we know about. We've talked to the other office personnel and at this time, we can't connect any case relative to his disappearance.
KING: Augusta, Georgia. Hello.
CALLER: Hello, Larry.
CALLER: My question is for the chief. What I would like to know is: Once they found his vehicle, were there any fingerprints or anything of that nature? And also, to his nephew: Has he ever had any type of symptoms of the bipolar?
DIXON: The vehicle was processed by the Pennsylvania state police on scene and at their station. They did find five fingerprints. The only couple that was able to be identified, certainly belonged to Ray himself.
KING: And, Tony? GRICAR: No. According to everybody we've talked to, there hasn't been anything, at least of note. You know they did get a warrant for his medical records and nothing showed up in those as well.
KING: Wyoming, Ontario. Hello.
CALLER: Hi, Larry. This is one Alilee (ph), one of your biggest fans.
KING: Thank you.
CALLER: And I understand that he had a daughter and a girlfriend.
CALLER: So, is he divorced and if so, is there maybe a life insurance policy in place with the ex or even family members?
KING: John Clay, what do we know about that?
CLAY: Well, I haven't heard specifically about life insurance. The chief may know a little more. I mean, the ex-wife was helpful during the investigation. She still lives in the area and she appeared during one of the news conferences as well. So, she has been part of the situation with the police.
KING: Chief, any insurance questions here?
DIXON: There is two ex-wives. We have looked into those situations. I really don't want to go into great detail as far as the financial aspect on the family side there. But that situation has been looked into. At this time, we don't see any issues.
KING: Kimberly, it's weird. The prayer is that he ran away, right?
NEWSOM: Well, you know, Larry, it doesn't look like it, but you never know. Remember, we were all kind of caught unprepared with the Jennifer Wilbanks story, but again, if there's nothing that was really going on in his life as a prosecutor, I don't see how he could be the victim of foul play -- if there wasn't evidence of car jacking, the vehicle wasn't taken, no indicia of foul play in or around the vehicle; no items missing from the home. You go through this checklist and it just makes this case more disturbing.
KING: It is a puzzlement. We thank you all. Tony Gricar, John Clay, Chief Duane Dixon and Kimberly Guilfoyle Newsom.
. Before we go, some wonderful news on an incredible story we brought to you just over a month ago. At that time, Susan Torres you remember, was brain dead, on life support and some 22 weeks pregnant. Could she be kept alive long enough to save that baby? Well, this morning, she gave birth to Susan Ann Katherine Torres, who weighs just one pound, 13 ounces, but is doing fine. Our congratulations to her father, Jason Torres, who was a guest on this program on June 30th. We're very happy about that.
Tomorrow night: There's a new documentary out called "Murder Ball." it's about a quadriplegic group that play rugby. They will be on this program and take your phone calls, tomorrow night.
I know Aaron Brown and I do not play rugby. In fact, I would bet that Aaron Brown has never played rugby, correct?
AARON BROWN, HOST, "NEWSNIGHT": That's not true. No.
KING: You played rugby? Where?
BROWN: I was a former first division Australian rugby player.
KING: You have grown in my estimation, by leaps and bounds. Carry on mate.
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