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Nancy Grace

Nancy Grace for August 2, 2005, CNNHN

Aired August 02, 2005 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news from Aruba. Judge`s son Joran Van Der Sloot back to police headquarters for more questions in the disappearance of 18-year-old American girl Natalee Holloway. Van Der Sloot has already changed his story two dozen times about the night Natalee went missing. And Natalee`s mom headed back to the states, but not staying long. Now, she`s getting back to Aruba to continue the search for her daughter.
And tonight, another teacher faces molestation charges, this time from a Catholic school. The number of students? Four. Four alleged student victims.

And tonight, a convicted sex offender gets sentenced to 320 years -- I mean, hours of needlepoint. Throw this judge off the bench.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace, and I want to thank you for being with us tonight.

Tonight, a Catholic school English teacher charged with molesting several of her underage students, including one 16-year-old student on the school`s football field. You heard me.

And a convicted sex offender gets quite the sentence: 320 hours of needlepoint. I say both he and the judge need hard jail time.

But first, breaking news in the disappearance of 18-year-old Alabama star student Natalee Holloway. Joran Van Der Sloot back to police headquarters for another round of questioning by Dutch authorities, so- called experts.

Sixty-five days ago, 6-5, Natalee went missing, the very last night of her high school senior trip, last seen alive in the company of judge`s son Joran Van Der Sloot.

With us tonight, in Aruba, Jossy Mansur. He is the managing director and editor of "Diario." In Atlanta, defense attorney Ray Giudice; in New York, defense attorney Richard Herman and psychotherapist Caryn Stark; also with us, WBMA-TV reporter Anastasiya Bolton.

Let`s go straight to Anastasiya. Bring us up-to-date, friend.

ANASTASIYA BOLTON, WBMA REPORTER COVERING STORY: Nancy, officials in Aruba, Dutch specialists, interrogated Joran Van Der Sloot today. They started early in the morning and went all day until 5:00.

They`re called behavioral specialists. They specialize in noticing and analyzing behavior and how a person answers questions. We also know that the FBI participated in the interrogation, as well. They were seen walking into the downtown police department where Joran was interrogated all day carrying Natalee Holloway folders.

We understand that there`s also going to be an interrogation going on tomorrow. As far as the results of the investigation, and the interrogation from today, we do not know what, if anything, they may have found out.

Another development: A hearing is going to be held tomorrow. Joran Van Der Sloot`s attorney is protesting the FBI`s involvement in this case. So we expect a judge to make a decision on that tomorrow, possibly later in the week.

Also, Natalee Holloway`s mother was going to go back to Aruba today but decided to stay home to take care some of things and will be going back tomorrow.

GRACE: Take a look at this newly released video. These are home videos of Natalee Holloway. What a little cutie bug. You know, it brings it all into perspective, this is the girl, still a little girl, barely...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NATALEE HOLLOWAY, MISSING GIRL IN ARUBA: (OFF-MIKE) and I`m sure you feel like one, too. And the beach was a blast. I had the best time of my life. And you know...

BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, MOTHER OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY: Are you properly buckled, Hootie? Oh, you`re not! You`re caught, OK.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You know what, this is a girl who was even worried, Caryn Stark, about having her seat belt buckled. She didn`t even want to drive in the car and break the law by not having her seat belt buckled.

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: That`s the saddest part, Nancy, as you see that, her mother is worried about her seat belt buckled. And now we know that she`s totally disappeared and likely dead.

GRACE: It makes the dichotomy very, very disturbing.

STARK: Painful.

GRACE: We`re showing you newly released video of Natalee Holloway. We know she loved dancing. Tonight, as we are heading toward the 65th day of her disappearance, let me quickly go Jossy Mansur with "Diario."

Jossy, this guy, Joran Van Der Sloot, has changed his story we know up to 22 times. Do you have any details of how he`s been changing his story?

JOSSY MANSUR, EDITOR, "DIARIO": No, I haven`t, because what we know is what you know is that he has been changing it. We don`t know the details of the changes. I know some of them that has been changed, for example, that he took the girl over to the beach and left her there, that he left her asleep on the beach.

On another occasion, he says no, he just left her on the beach to walk back to the Holiday Inn. On another occasion, still he says he left the girl because she became sick and he left her on the beach.

So those kind of changes to the same question is what I think people are referring to when they say that he`s changed his story about 22 to 24 times.

GRACE: Take a listen to this, Jossy.

OK, guys, hold on. Tell me when you get that sound, Elizabeth.

To Ray Giudice, bringing in Dutch behavioral specialists, well, I`m all for that. I think they should have done it 65 days ago. But the reality is, they need some hard questioning techniques, Ray. Behavioral specialists, that`s not even allowed in court.

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, it`s not, Nancy. But the thick I was very pleased to hear is that the FBI agents are going to be with these behavioral specialists during the questioning and, perhaps, if anybody`s got any sense, the FBI will have more than just a slight guiding hand into how this next interrogation is going to be done.

I`m all for anybody with a new approach, a new specialty, or a new study that can get to the bottom of this. Let this boy tell the story as many times as he wants.

Each time he tells the story, it offers an opportunity for a lead or a crack in a contrast with a prior version of the story. So again, the upside is, yes, they`re doing it, albeit late, but the FBI is there. And that really -- you know, if there is any upside to it, that`s it right there.

GRACE: OK. Let`s try that sound again, Elizabeth.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE "JUG" TWITTY, STEPFATHER OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY: If the story still stood, the night that I confronted the judge, so-called judge, and the son, and Deepak, and they sit there and told me that, "Yes, here`s what we did. We took her to the Holiday Inn. Come with me, we`ll show you. We`ll talk to the guards."

Of course, the guards had never saw them. It`s not on the video. They said that for nine days before they arrested them, that was the story. And then all of a sudden they changed the story. So why did they do that? The whole world knows that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Richard, very rarely will testimony or any evidence from a so- called behavioral specialist be allowed in court. That`s just like telling a jury, "Oh, I know he`s lying because he looked away, or I know he`s lying because he crossed his arm, because he fidgeted."

That may be anecdotal. We may think that as lawyers. But that is not the type of evidence that is allowed in court. What are they thinking?

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, I think this is strictly a political move by the Aruban authorities so they can say down the road they did everything they possibly could.

Van Der Sloot`s own attorney has said, "My client had said all he`s going to say." I don`t believe he`s answered any questions. I think there may be a team of people and they`re looking at him, and him sitting there looking back at them.

I`d like to know if he`s answering any of these questions, because I don`t think he is.

GRACE: To Paul Reynolds, joining us tonight. This is Natalee`s uncle.

Paul, have you heard whether there was any progress with Joran Van Der Sloot? I mean, didn`t his defense attorney say at the get-go today, "Well, he`s already talked to you guys several times. I don`t know if he has anything else to say"?

PAUL REYNOLDS, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S UNCLE: Well, we don`t know what he said today. But certainly, we think that there`s information contained in the original interrogation records that holds some clues.

And you know, from the very beginning, when questioned after Natalee was first missing to later when they were first picked up, you know, we had the reports of the so-called confessions in the very beginning, back on June 10th, when they said the boys started talking. They said something bad happened.

I just have to think there are some clues in those answers. And, you know, we want them explored, and we want those pieces of the puzzle put together.

GRACE: You know, he`s right, Jossy Mansur. Jossy is with us from Aruba. He is with "Diario" newspaper.

Jossy, if you could recount that statement, that alleged statement, the statement then witnessed by four police officers, where Joran Van Der Sloot points the finger at a Kalpoe brother.

MANSUR: Yes, he did. They took him over to that place where he sat, to the north of the Marriott where he sat. He thinks that Deepak buried the girl`s body under the sand near the first fisherman`s hut.

Then when they continue to walk, at the end he told them, "I went with the girl to the beach, and I left her there. I walk back. And then Deepak went back to where the girl was lying on the beach."

And then they asked him, "What do you think happened between the two of them?" And then Joran answered very categorically, "I think that Deepak raped and murdered her."

GRACE: You know, Joran Van Der Sloot, the judge`s son, is not the only one that specialists need to re-question. What about his father? Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE "JUG" TWITTY, STEPFATHER OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY: I met him the night I got here. He`s sickening to me. He`s a chicken. If he has nothing to hide, why is he running to his car? He makes my stomach turn.

You know, they say, "Like father, like son." Well, in this case, I truly believe that`s the case.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Back to Jossy Mansur. You know, Jossy, we`ve got many, many shots of Judge Van Der Sloot running away from questions. And if it`s like father, like son, why should we believe Joran Van Der Sloot has got a lawyer with him, his father, the judge, has been visiting him behind bars?

There you go. Why should Joran Van Der Sloot be any different from what we`re seeing right now?

MANSUR: You know, that`s a question very hard to answer, because we`re not inside the boy`s character. We don`t know how he thinks. What we do know is that he`s out of control with anger. He`s not a man that controls his anger.

At school, he`s been in problems many times. He`s been allowed to gamble at 17 years of age, to enter casinos, which is prohibited in Aruba. He`s been allowed to drink at all these nightclubs that we see him partying. He`s a party boy.

And I don`t know how they can serve him drinks, being 17 years old. So to compare the father with the son for me is very difficult. I`m not a psychiatrist.

GRACE: Back to Anastasiya Bolton, WBMA reporter. Anastasia, I understand the questioning will resume tomorrow morning.

BOLTON: Yes. We are told that the specialists from Holland are back tomorrow morning at the police department. That`s where the interrogation is taking place.

Joran is being held at the only prison facility. So it`s about a 30- minute ride downtown to the police department. That`s where he`s being questioned. And we`re expecting the FBI to participate in that questioning, as well.

GRACE: To Ray Giudice. Ray, you`ve handled a lot of criminal cases, everything from DUI to homicide. Just get real for a moment. What do you tell your guy when he is going in to be questioned by police?

GIUDICE: Well, I try to prevent him from talking, if I can. If they insist on talking, I`d like to go over the story with him as many times as I can on the critical parts. Not coach him, but make sure he knows what his story is and knows that it hangs together.

I can`t put words in his mouth, but I`ve got to prepare him for the type of questioning they`re going to get. You know, look, they`re going to play good cop, bad cop with him. And as you know, every variation under the sun of that, and now with this psychological evaluation that they`re doing.

But again this is a different story. You`ve got a 17-year-old kid. That`s not a hardened criminal. That`s not a person who`s used to being questioned or used to being on the spot. And I don`t think this kid`s ever had anything but things go his way, anyway.

So I think -- I`m surprised that, after 65 days, that good, seasoned investigators, if they had been on this job, I think they would have cracked it by now.

GRACE: Well, there`s the kicker, Ray.

GIUDICE: Yes, I agree.

GRACE: Could have, would have, should have, good, seasoned investigators.

GIUDICE: Absolutely.

GRACE: Richard Herman, Ray Giudice is soft-pedaling a little bit. The reality is, isn`t it true, your guy is looking at a murder charge, you`re not going to say, "Don`t speak. Whatever they say, don`t answer. Stick with the story you`ve already given. You`ve locked yourself in. You`re stuck with it."

Be honest, Richard.

HERMAN: Nancy, his jaw is wired. I don`t believe he`s saying anything other than his name. There is no body. There is no crime scene. There`s no DNA evidence. September 4th this cold case is going to freeze over. He`s going to walk out of that prison facility. I guarantee that.

GRACE: With us is Natalee`s uncle, Paul Reynolds. Isn`t it true that Natalee`s family believes the judge told his son "no body, no case"? As long as they don`t find Natalee, they think they`re going ride free.

REYNOLDS: We certainly think that is the story that he told his son. We think that it is really not true. We do think that there is information there. I think the boys have been talking.

I think those pieces of the puzzle can be put together. And witnesses are still coming forward. We`re still obtaining new information.

You know, it`s really unfortunate for his son that he`s giving him that kind of information, because what if there was an accident? You know, there`s a lot of speculation that something happened as a result of an accident.

Trying to protect his son in this manner is not going to help him move forward with his life, whereas he could come forward with the truth and let us know what happened, he would have a chance. I think the father has given his son very bad advice.

GRACE: Caryn?

STARK: Well, it seems to me, Nancy, that this is not at all a psychological evaluation in the true sense of the word. So people who are behaviorists are not psychologists.

And the other thing I want to say is the fact that he accused his friend tells me that he`s projecting. The story that he came up with of murder and rape, that might be something that`s inside of him, that he`s projecting onto his friend because he was there and did it.

I suspect it. I can`t say that that actually happened.

GRACE: Well, I can guarantee you this: If Natalee Holloway was raped and murdered -- remember the "Three Musketeers"? -- the law feels the same way, all for one, one for all.

We`ll be right back.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, MOTHER OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY: We have been going through this since June 10th. What have I not been exposed to? What have I not been put through? Where has she not been? It`s been endless. You know, until I am shown definitively, of course I`m going to have hope that she`s alive.

B. TWITTY: And who`s our special guest today?

N. HOLLOWAY: It`s Hootie.

B. TWITTY: Hootie Hoo Holloway. Hi, friend.

N. HOLLOWAY: Just, you know, sitting in the back, cruising over to my place, and doing an excellent job. And I just want to say happy birthday. You know, you look like a new woman. And I`m sure you feel like one, too.

And the beach was a blast. I had the best time of my life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVE HOLLOWAY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S FATHER: The guarder indicated that they were on that road, right near the racquet club. And if they were down on the beach, possibly running back towards the racquet club, late at night, there`s a lot of mud holes and sinkholes, and that type of stuff, in that area. He could have possibly ran off into one of those and lost his shoes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. We are live in Aruba. And the search that goes on for Natalee Holloway.

To Jossy Mansur, with "Diario" newspaper. Jossy, what`s the latest regarding the search for Joran Van Der Sloot`s shoes? Now, didn`t he tell police he lost them that night? How do you lose your shoes?

MANSUR: He did say that he lost two shoes, blue and white, tennis- type shoes. But I want to show you a picture, if I can.

GRACE: OK. OK.

MANSUR: And I will hold it to my chest.

GRACE: Before we lose the -- hold on. OK, go ahead.

MANSUR: Look at Joran`s shoes here in this photo.

GRACE: OK. Zoom in, Liz.

MANSUR: Do those look to you like blue or white or tennis-type shoes?

GRACE: No.

MANSUR: They look like boots, no?

GRACE: They look like boots. They look like work boots.

MANSUR: Brown boots. OK.

GRACE: Now, wait a minute...

MANSUR: He was wearing those at...

GRACE: Was that what he was wearing the night Natalee went missing?

MANSUR: Yes, ma`am. This is the photo -- this is a photo taken at Carlos and Charlie`s that night with other photos that we have.

You see, when all this became so complicated about the shoes, we went back in our files and we started to look at all of the pictures that we have. And we find some very interesting one, including this one that shows what he was wearing that night.

GRACE: Uh-oh, the Bruno Maglis of the Holloway case.

Everybody, with me is Jossy Mansur. Let`s see if we can zoom back in on that. Jossy, I didn`t realize at first what you were showing me.

What you`re seeing, according to Jossy with "Diario," is a photo from the night Natalee went missing and all this business about his blue and white K-Swiss size 14s is B.S. That`s a technical legal term, because here are his feet, unless Mansur has somehow Photo Shopped another foot on him.

You know, so, Jossy, have you handed this over to police?

MANSUR: Yes, we have. We did so today. We hand everything over to the police, because I have total confidence in our police corps. I think they`re doing a good job.

I think that, in the beginning, there was some interference because they had some problems with the minister. But then everything fell into place. Now we have a new team working on this. And my confidence has not slackened in our police force one second.

GRACE: With us, Jossy Mansur with "Diario" there in Aruba. And cases have been cracked on things a lot less minor than a missing shoe, which leads us to the question, if the shoes don`t matter, why would he continue to lie about them? Do they hold evidence?

Very quickly, everyone, to "Trial Tracking." Today, up goes the reward for information on LaToyia Figueroa, five months pregnant and missing now 15 days. Now, $10,000 for information on her whereabouts, $90,000 for info leading to the arrest and conviction of anyone involved in her disappearance. It`s a total of $100,000.

Take a look. LaToyia Figueroa, mother of a 7-year-old little girl, disappeared after a doctor appointment. Police desperately searching the Philadelphia area. Still no solid leads on LaToyia.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTHONY WILLIAMS, LATOYIA`S FORMER BOYFRIEND: I`m not looking for a dead body. I`m looking for LaToyia. She`s alive. She`s out there somewhere. She needs our help. She`s coming home. She`s coming home.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Man, I pray she is. If you have any information on LaToyia Figueroa, please call the Philly police, 215-686-3183.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: One million dollar reward for Natalee`s safe return; $100,000 for info on her whereabouts. There`s a toll-free number, 877-628-2533.

Very quickly, to Natalee`s uncle, Paul Reynolds. Paul is joining us. Paul, he`s lying even about his shoes. Did you know that?

REYNOLDS: I just had heard that report this evening. You know, it`s just -- it`s another lie that he was telling. And it certainly gives the night a different meaning.

You know, it kind of sounds like he must have gone home, possibly with Natalee, after leaving Carlos and Charlie`s, and looks as if he changed his shoes he was wearing. But, again, we don`t know how the police got the report that he lost his tennis shoes to begin with. So there`s just many confusing aspects about his story.

GRACE: Well, confusing is one way to put it. Outright lies may be another way to put it.

Very quickly, back to Jossy Mansur with "Diario," Jossy, didn`t it come from Joran Van Der Sloot himself that he lost his K-Swiss tennis shoes that night?

MANSUR: He did. He said that to the police. He told the police that he lost his shoes over there and that he had to walk barefooted from the hotel to his house. That`s on the record with the police.

GRACE: Well, so, Richard Herman, long story short, if the actual shoes he was wearing were at the home or in the car, they`re long gone, Richard.

HERMAN: Nancy, I told you it`s pathetic. And in contrast to Mr. Mansur, I have absolutely no confidence in the police department in Aruba. They blew the case the first three or four days and Natalee went missing.

GRACE: Quick break, everybody. We`ll all be right back. We are live in Aruba.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Unfortunately, in our society, our society probably precludes a lot of young men from reporting because it`s been felt that it`s a conquest and not a victimization.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Children, whether they`re male or female, can be victims of predators in our community. And it shouldn`t make a difference if the victims are, in fact, young boys.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, the saying goes, What`s good for the goose is good for the gander, but is that true? Is Lady Justice treating child molesters differently if they are women? Now another teacher accused with child molestation. I`m talking full-blown rape, this time a female offender, including one alleged incident on the high school football field.

Tonight, in Albany, New York, John Aretakis -- he`s a lawyer for the 17-year-old boy whom Sandra Beth Geisel allegedly had sex with -- and "Daily News" Albany bureau chief Joe Mahoney.

Straight to Joe Mahoney. Joe, bring us up to date, friend.

JOE MAHONEY, "DAILY NEWS" ALBANY BUREAU CHIEF: Well, hi, Nancy. This really began to unravel for Sandra Geisel back in June, when she was found in a car with a 17-year-old boy by local police. They couldn`t make an arrest because that boy was of age. Here in New York, the legal age of consent is 17. So if you`re below 17, that would be, you know, unauthorized. That would be rape, if an adult is having sex with a person less than 17.

So then the school involved here, Christian Brothers Academy, sent a note home to the parents on July 8. At that point, the parents of this 16- year-old boy came forward. He then talked to the police. Meanwhile, the police had been gathering other information involving these other 17-year- old boys. They now believe she had sex with at least four boys, including this one 16-year-old.

GRACE: Question, Joe. The 17-year-olds -- do any of the rapes go back to the age of 16 with them?

MAHONEY: No. No. This is all in the last couple of months, back in the month of May, mainly. But they are still investigating. They haven`t locked this down yet, Nancy.

GRACE: To John Aretakis. He`s a lawyer for a 17-year-old victim. John, what does your victim have to say? Does he feel that he has been victimized?

JOHN ARETAKIS, LAWYER FOR BOY CAUGHT WITH TEACHER IN PARKING LOT: Well, that`s a little bit of a disconnect, Nancy.

GRACE: Yes.

ARETAKIS: I guess, at this point, he might not feel as traumatized as we and his family believe he will be in the future. But let me back up just a little bit on what Joe Mahoney said. This case actually started back in February 2005. Beth Geisel went on a trip with the Christian Brothers Academy school trip with all the boys down to Florida. And on that trip, she provided alcohol to a lot of the boys, drank with them, and actually got so drunk on one occasion, she was carried home by four juniors and thrown into her hotel.

GRACE: She didn`t get fired for that?

ARETAKIS: Well, that`s a good question. The school and the administration and the other chaperones on the trip all were well aware of that event and that incident.

GRACE: Woo-hoo! I smell a civil lawsuit, and it is stinky! Go ahead.

ARETAKIS: I`d like to continue on with what Joe Mahoney said. I`ve been highly critical of the Cohoes (ph) Police Department because on June 10, when she was found having sexual contact with a 17-year-old boy in the car, number one, she was engaged in public lewdness. You`re not allowed to have sex in a public place in a car. And number two, when both the teacher and the boy were asked their names and their ages, they both lied about it. And there is also a criminal statute regarding lying to a police officer who`s...

GRACE: Well, John Aretakis, it`s very familiar. It sounds just like the Mary Kay Letourneau story, where she was having sex with her student, Vili Fualaau, in a car. They have since married. No comment.

Very quickly, to Ray Giudice. Minors can`t consent. And what John Aretakis, the lawyer, was saying is very true. A teenage boy may not consider himself now a victim...

GIUDICE: Yes.

GRACE: ... but looking back, as time passes...

GIUDICE: Right.

GRACE: ... he will. Minors cannot consent under the law.

GIUDICE: Nancy, a 16-year-old boy is so immature. This kind of activity is so far above his ability to comprehend the seriousness of it and the -- really, the life-shaping events. In fact, a 16-year-old girl`s probably much more mature than a 16-year-old boy, not that this should happen to a 16-year-old girl, either. But you know, we have this attitude in our culture, Oh, it`s just -- it`s a teenage boy, he`ll get over it, he probably thinks it`s a great thing and all his buddies are patting him on the back. And that is a terrible approach. I love what I`ve heard from the...

GRACE: Horrible.

GIUDICE: The prosecutor in this case is going at this thing the right way.

GRACE: I think you`re right. Richard Herman, now, we know in the LaFave case out of Florida, she looks like a supermodel. She is a middle grade teacher. She`s -- there she -- there you go, Elizabeth (ph). She`s pleading temporary insanity. You think it`ll work, Richard?

HERMAN: Well, the Florida case, I think it might work because I think she is nuts. But this case here in upstate...

GRACE: For that -- for that five minutes, she was nuts. She`s nuts from the waist down.

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: Go ahead.

HERMAN: I think in the case of upstate New York -- I know that they waived a preliminary hearing. There`s either going to be a quick resolution here or there`s going to be an indictment. And the prior attorney speaking, you know, he`s looking to set up a civil case. That`s why he`s talking the way he is.

GRACE: John Aretakis...

HERMAN: He`s looking for the...

GRACE: ... Aretakis, I resent that, I really do, on your behalf. I`ll let you respond.

ARETAKIS: That`s absolutely untrue. As a matter of fact, the parents of the victim that I`m involved with have said to me that they are not authorizing and not requesting a lawsuit. They don`t want to sue the school for probably three different reasons. Number one, it`s a Catholic school, and we have found, if anything, in the past three years, that fighting the institution of the Catholic church and the Albany diocese in this area, that`s embroiled in a huge clergy sex abuse scandal...

GRACE: Right. Right.

ARETAKIS: ... is very, very difficult. Number two, it`s a military academy. The military teaches you to handle things internally and not to go outside into the courtroom to try to settle a dispute. And the third thing is we all know that jurors out there, some of them are too practical for this type of case and there`d be a lot of whistling and giggling in the background saying, That`s just a 16 or 17-year-old boy having one positive outlook at his high school.

GRACE: Very quickly, to Joe Mahoney with "The New York Daily News." Joe, how many alleged victims are there?

MAHONEY: Well, there`s at least four right now, but those three are of age, you know, the three 17-year-olds. But it`s clear that her life has spun out of control. I`m told that she`s been going to AA meetings. She`s been in alcohol rehab. And she was arrested, in fact, just about six months ago for driving while drunk. And she was quite drunk, in fact, that night, according to police records.

GRACE: Question. Did she have custody of her children? Were they at home during any of this sex?

MAHONEY: No. Well, there is an allegation that her son was in the house. There was drinking going on at a party there, and she had this one boy in the room and that she had sex later with that boy and told her son to go to bed. But the ex-husband has custody of the four kids that these two have. And the ex-husband, by the way, is a prominent bank president in the Albany area here.

GRACE: You know, Caryn Stark, why is it when the victim is a young boy, we say the perp had sex with him. When the victim is a young girl, we say rape. Now, why are we willing to go soft on female offenders? This is child molestation, if these allegations are true.

STARK: Absolutely, Nancy. Absolutely. And the problem is the culture. In the culture, it looks like, for the boy, it`s a big deal. It`s a lot of fun, good for him. But in fact, there are repercussions here. They could have sexual confusion in their identity, anxiety. I have worked with people who looked back on early experiences like this and are not OK with it and whose lives have got very messed up.

GRACE: Take a listen to this, Caryn.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEVE HEIDER, CHIEF OF COLONIE POLICE: Obviously, that letter disturbed a lot of controversy within the CBA (ph) community. It stirred a lot of parents talking. It stirred a lot of media attention. And that, precisely, is what brought this victim to our attention, was the media attention, and we were able to move forward from there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: This case very reminiscent of the Mary Kay Letourneau case. I want to go very quickly back to our reporter, Joe Mahoney. How much jail time is she facing?

MAHONEY: Well, she could go to jail for up to four years for each count of rape third degree. That`s a low-level felony in this state. And she would also face a year in jail for each count of endangering the welfare of a minor. Right now, she`s just got the two counts of rape third, I believe, as well as two counts of endangering the welfare of a minor.

GRACE: How much bail?

MAHONEY: Right now, it`s at $20,000 bail, but that could change once she`s indicted, and I believe she will be indicted within the next week or so.

GRACE: Now, what will an indictment mean? I mean, she`s out free right now.

MAHONEY: Right. She spent last night in jail. She made bail, you know, today. But there`s a lot of wealth in the family, of course, so $20,000 is not a lot of money these days to make bail.

GRACE: OK, everybody, quick break. We`ll keep you up to date on the case, now allegedly four different victims. There`s Mary Kay Letourneau. She did hard jail time, but at first, got lenient treatment from a judge. Will it happen again? Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: OK. Robert Wayne Thompson, 46, pleads nolo to aggravated sexual assault of a child. He has a felony child molestation record. And he was sentenced to 320 hours of knitting, needlepoint. Right. He`s walking free, and the judge that gave that sentence is Judge Rose Guerra Reyna in Texas, last name spelled R-E-Y-N-A. We tried to contact her today. She refused to call back. We asked for her photo release. She refuses for you to see her photo! Why is she hiding?

Joining me from "Justice" magazine, Mark Schone. Bring me up to date.

MARK SCHONE, SENIOR EDITOR, "JUSTICE" MAGAZINE: Well, everybody says that the judge is fair and conscientious, and she has no reputation of being particularly easy or tough on criminals. That`s going to change after this, obviously.

GRACE: Well, my question is, what about the case?

SCHONE: The case is -- well, he is doing 320 hours of crocheting. He knits afghans for local people...

GRACE: OK, Mark, can you really say that with a straight face, knitting?

SCHONE: He does knitting. He does 320 hours, and he says he can do one every six hours, so...

GRACE: Yes, well, he could do that behind bars.

Diane Clements, help me out here. Have I lost my mind?

DIANE CLEMENTS, JUSTICE FOR ALL: No, Nancy, you haven`t, thank goodness. The judge lost her mind. And you`re right, she is hiding. What judge would want anyone in their community to know this? You know, this guy is a convicted pedophile. We know who and what he is. But for a judge and a prosecutor to even put that plea bargain on the table and to allow it, that`s almost as big of an outrage. His own daughter he molested. Twelve counts they dropped as a part of this plea agreement.

GRACE: Very quickly, joining us -- I believe I`ve still got him by phone. Do I, Elizabeth? Robert Wayne Thompson, convicted sex offender. He`s on the phone with us because he`s not behind bars.

Mr. Thompson, were you surprised you got 320 hours of knitting?

ROBERT WAYNE THOMPSON, CONVICTED SEX OFFENDER: I didn`t do nothing what like y`all say I did. So if y`all want to downgrade me, y`all have the paperwork that I have, like I tried to get to y`all before I came on...

GRACE: OK. You know what? Thanks, Mr. Thompson.

Ellie, can you hand me the paperwork, please? Sir, we do have the paperwork where you pled nolo contendere.

Ray Giudice, in a nutshell -- not a law review article -- what`s a nolo?

CLEMENTS: He -- he...

GRACE: Ray? Ray, are you with me? OK, no Ray. Go ahead, Diane.

CLEMENTS: He is guilty. He said no contest, blah, blah, blah. The judge said, I accept your plea. I find you guilty of aggravated sexual assault of a child and guilty by contact. So yes, he tried to walk the line, claim he didn`t do it, maybe this, maybe that. He`s guilty. He molested his own daughter.

GRACE: You know, right here is the grand jury indictment. Here`s Thompson`s criminal history, including the offense of child molestation and his "no contest."

I`m going to try Ray Giudice again. Ray, are you with me? OK. No Ray.

Do I have Richard Herman? Richard, are you there?

HERMAN: Yes. I`m here.

GRACE: Great. In a nutshell, what`s a nolo?

HERMAN: Nolo means, Nancy, he`s not going to admit to being guilty and he`s not going to say he`s not guilty. That`s it in a nutshell.

GRACE: Very quickly, back to Diane Clements. Is there a recall effort tonight on this judge?

CLEMENTS: There should be. And hopefully, after the program tonight, Nancy, the people in McAllen, Hidalgo County, Texas, will look at that judge, and when she comes up for election next year, she won`t be back on the bench. That`s what we have to do. She has thrown this child to the wolves, who happens to be her own father, and who knows how many other children. Over and over and over again, we see convicted pedophiles reoffend. And we could have stopped him. He should be in prison tonight.

GRACE: And the gall of it, Diane, to actually say, I didn`t do that - - he had his chance in court to say that. He pled nolo so he could get a sweet deal.

CLEMENTS: Yes, and did he ever get a sweet deal.

GRACE: Now, what`s the deal with this judge, Judge Rose Guerra Reyna, who actually sentenced a guy with a conviction for child molestation to straight probation and knitting?

CLEMENTS: Straight probation and knitting. I guess they had some sympathy or empathy because he claims to have some sort of heart problem.

GRACE: You know, I`m going to ask him about that right now. Mr. Thompson, what is your heart ailment? Mr. Thompson? Heart ailment? OK. No Mr. Thompson. I guess he can`t explain that heart ailment.

CLEMENTS: No, he can`t explain it. I mean, you know, how can you go on television and claim that you didn`t do what you`re guilty of?

GRACE: To -- OK, I`m going to try one last time. I`m going out on a limb, to Atlanta, maybe we have Ray Giudice. Do I have him?

GIUDICE: I`m here, Nancy.

GRACE: Great. OK. I hear your voice. Can`t see you. Ray, have you ever heard of a nolo, nolo contendere -- in other words, I`m not fighting it -- in a felony rape on a child?

GIUDICE: I`ve never had a client be able to have a plea like that accepted by a judge with a prior similar offense from, I guess, 10 years ago or 5 years ago. But I just want to say one thing. The only thing I can think of that justifies any type of a sentence like this, the state must have had either an exceptionally weak case or the victim did not want to testify. I mean, I just think, in all fairness, we should point out that there was a reason or had to be a reason, at least from my point, that the district attorney`s office went along with this because it is a ridiculous plea.

GRACE: Ray, Ray Ray, wait a minute! You saw it. I saw it. Prosecutors who just move cases along because they want to get the case off the docket. They want to clear their calendar. This doesn`t mean this child couldn`t come forward. In this case -- Diane Clements, this case is just like the last case. That was an ex-wife who he molested her little girl.

CLEMENTS: You`re exactly right. And we do have prosecutors who just want to move cases, and we have prosecutors who don`t believe children. And then they say, Oh, well, she said that her mother coached her. Children recant. They make an outcry and they recant. And they want to move it along. And what does a 7-year-old know? She doesn`t know if she`s been molested.

GRACE: Well, I think it`s pretty significant when a 7-year-old no longer has a hymen, all right? Something happened.

Very quickly, to tonight`s "All Points Bulletin." Law enforcement across the country on the lookout for this woman, Elizabeth Lathbury, wanted in connection with a body believed to be that of her 56-year-old husband, George Lathbury, found in her backyard in Conyers, Georgia. Lathbury, 52, 5-5, 115 pounds, gray hair. If you have any info, call Rockdale sheriff, 770-918-6700.

Local news next for some of you, but we`ll all be right back. And remember, live coverage of a man on trial for the murder of his family 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern on Court TV`s "Closing Arguments."

Please stay with us as we remember First Lieutenant Noah Harris, 23, an American hero.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: We at NANCY GRACE want to help in our way solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Take a look at 21-year-old Johnia Berry from Knoxville, stabbed December 2004 in her own home. Tonight, no answers to Johnia`s murder. If you have any information on this beauty, Johnia Berry, call the Carole Sund Carrington Foundation toll-free, 888-813-8389. Please help us.

You know, Caryn Stark, 320 hours of knitting handed down by Judge Rose Guerra Reyna on this guy -- why Texas hasn`t started a recall effort on her, I don`t know! But Caryn stark, this victim is his natural daughter. How old was she, Ellie? Seven. Of course she didn`t want to testify against her father.

CLEMENTS: Exactly right, Nancy. It`s really hard...

GRACE: So the prosecutor...

CLEMENTS: ... to get children to testify against their parents.

GRACE: ... just says, Oh, no case.

CLEMENTS: Well, it makes perfect sense to me. She cannot testify against her parent. It`s very, very difficult. We`re talking about a position of authority and trust.

GRACE: She can`t unless someone explains to her that she can. Now this guy is free to molest somebody else. You know, Diane Clements -- she is the president of Justice for All. Diane, you`ve been a crusader for victims` rights as long as I`ve known you. What are you going to do about this judge, who doesn`t even want the viewers to see her face, won`t even allow her picture to be shown!

CLEMENTS: You know, Nancy, starting with this program, starting with media in the area, just making it known that what she has done, and regardless of what she`s done before, this is what she did, and I think this should be her legacy and it`s the legacy that I think should have her voted out of office.

GRACE: Diane Clements with Justice for All, Mark Schone, "Justice" magazine, thank you to both of you.

I want to thank all of my guests tonight, but my biggest thank you is to you for being with us, inviting all of us into your home. Coming up, headlines from all around the world, Larry on CNN. I`m Nancy Grace, signing off for tonight. See you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 o`clock sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.

END