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CNN Live At Daybreak

Fix In Space; Teaching Controversy; King Crowning in Saudi Arabia; 14 Marines Killed by Explosive in Iraq

Aired August 03, 2005 - 06:29   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Let's head into space now, shall we? In just about 90 minutes, we're going to see some fascinating repair work being done on the shuttle Discovery. It will be the first time they have made a fix like this while in space. You're looking at a live picture now of astronaut Steve Robinson.
Let's go to our space correspondent, Miles O'Brien. He's going to explain exactly what's going down right now.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN SPACE CORRESPONDENT: They're working on an external stowage platform, which I think the description -- as a matter of fact, Steve Robinson, the spacewalker, who is there, along with Soichi Noguchi, working on this, described it as a combination of a back porch and a garage. He said he'd like to have that at his house. I'd like one, too, as a matter of fact, because then you've got your tools all ready to go there. That's the goal here.

That is the point of this first three hours or so of this spacewalk that was the previously-scheduled part of this spacewalk. There you see the legs of Steve Robinson as he floats around in the void.

He will be the man on the hot seat, trying to avoid Discovery getting on the hot seat during re-entry, spending a little bit of time in the next few hours pulling out some so-called gap fillers between some of the shuttle's heat-resistant tiles.

Let me explain, first of all, why those protruding gap fillers might be a problem. When the shuttle returns to Earth, as it enters the very outer edges of the atmosphere, it encounters this super- heated plasma. And this is -- you know, this is high-speed stuff, Carol. We're talking eight or nine times faster than a speeding bullet, quite literally, as they come in.

And as they encounter those molecules, it builds up tremendous heat, thousands and thousands of degrees of the heat. And around the shuttle is kind of a cushion of molecules which actually act as an insulator.

But the key here is it has to be really smooth in order for that to work. If it isn't smooth, if it's rough for any reason, it creates a turbulence and causes that very, very hot plasma to actually encounter the skin of the shuttle, kind of like pointing a blowtorch at a specific location.

So, if you've got something sticking out of that normally smooth belly, here's what happens. The air passes across it, or the molecules, the plasma, and it creates a little wake, as you can see there. And that's a hot spot. So, there's a hot spot at the location of where that protrusion is and downstream of it. You're kind of looking back at the shuttle as it's coming in, kind of coming toward you.

So, what will happen is, as soon as they finish with this mobile garage and back porch, is Steve Robinson will make his way over to the belly of the orbiter, which is a very delicate place indeed to be. As a matter of fact, in a perfect world they wouldn't want to put a spacewalking astronaut there. And he'll have with him forceps, which will be used to perhaps pull the gap filler out. And if it doesn't pull out, he's got a hacksaw.

This gap filler -- look at it. It's very thin stuff. Not much to it. But it sits between the tiles. And this one having stuck out a little bit is causing the problems. There are actually two of those. So, there you see it right there.

In theory, Carol, it should be simple. Just pull it out, and that's the end of the story. And Steve Robinson becomes a hero. But he's ready for it.

COSTELLO: Well, he already is in my book to be doing that anyway, because that takes some guts.

M. O'BRIEN: Yes, I'm with you on that.

COSTELLO: Yes. Thank you, Miles.

Turning now to yesterday's fiery plane crash in Toronto. It could have been a deadly disaster, but it became something far different. All of the more than 300 people on board the Air France flight made it out alive. They got out of there in 90 seconds. Their plane skidded off a rain-soaked runway, plunged into a ravine, then it broke into piece, and then it burst into flames.

Listen as one passenger describes the wild ride.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

ROEL BRAMER, PASSENGER: We had come to a complete stop, so it's not like you think anything else is about to happen, I mean, even though we had a hell of a rollercoaster going down the ravine. But as soon as there was some smoke and fire outside -- and I can't tell how the other people reacted, because I was in the very, very end of the plane, the absolute last seat of the plane. And so, you know, all I could think of was "Get off.'

(END AUDIO CLIP)

COSTELLO: And he did. The passengers are crediting the quick- thinking flight crew for rushing them out minutes before the flames erupted.

You probably heard what President Bush told reporters in Texas this week about intelligent design. I'm quoting here. The president said, "I think that part of education is to expose people to different schools of thought. You're asking me whether or not people ought to be exposed to different ideas. The answer is yes." And that has sparked a teaching controversy.

Should evolution and intelligent design be taught side by side?

Joining us from Washington to debate this is Edward Sisson, partner of the law firm of Arnold & Porter, and Rob Boston, assistant communications director for the Americans United for the Separation of Church and State.

Welcome to you both.

ROB BOSTON, INTELLIGENT DESIGN OPPONENT: Thank you.

EDWARD SISSON, PARTNER, ARNOLD & PORTER: Thank you.

COSTELLO: You know, I had a whole list of my own questions prepared, but we got so many e-mails on this topic I'm just going to ask what our viewers are wondering about.

So, this is from Dan. He says, "It's simple. It's simple really. Creationism should be taught in public schools when evolution is taught in church."

And, you know, I'm wondering something, Edward, because a lot of people know that intelligent design is really creationism. So, why call it "intelligent design?" Why not call it what it is?

SISSON: Well, it's not creationism. That is the spin that's always put on it. But the focus here is on the data specifically or most interestingly data revealed by the analysis of how cells operate and how DNA is structured that demonstrates such complexity and such specificity of function and performance that it really is not credible to say that every single feature that we see there happens solely by natural, random processes or natural selection. Some of these elements must have required some kind of intelligent intervention. And that is all that we are saying.

COSTELLO: Well, who is the intelligent designer?

SISSON: Well, we don't -- science -- the data that we see doesn't tell us that. And so, the -- all we can say is that we have identified that there must have been at some point an intelligent intervention. We're not...

COSTELLO: Rob, let's go to you now so you can respond to this.

BOSTON: Well, I think it's pretty obvious an intelligent design is merely a dressed up creationism under a new name. Over the years since the Supreme Court struck down the teaching of creationism in public schools, proponents of that idea have renamed it and, you know, tried to recast it in a different light. In this case, they simply have jettisoned some of the more outlandish proposals of creationism, trying to secularize it and say, oh, it's different now; it's OK to teach it in schools.

What does the science say? Well, you know, 99.9 percent of all scientists project intelligent design, and I think we have to go with what the scientific community looks at and take this question away from the political system and really get it back into the scientific community where it belongs.

COSTELLO: Well, let me throw this at you, Rob, because we had some polls on earlier. And most people think it's OK to teach creationism alongside evolution within the schools. In fact, this is from Bree (ph). She's a teacher in Rochester, New York. She says, "Schools should be allowed to teach both religion and science, but children should be taught about all religions."

What's wrong with that?

BOSTON: I think an objective study of the religions of the world would be fine in public schools from a standpoint of education, not indoctrination. But when we get into these alleged scientific theories of origins that they really are just religion masquerading as science. We have to be very careful, because not all religious believers accept those ideas. And sometimes they're really just theology disguised as science.

COSTELLO: Well, Edward, what would be so wrong with teaching intelligent design in a religious course within high schools? Why must it be taught in a science class?

SISSON: Because the basis for it is found in science. It's found in an understanding of how...

COSTELLO: According to who though?

SISSON: What?

COSTELLO: According to who? What scientific...

SISSON: Well, I was out at the Kansas hearings as co-counsel. We had 17 science Ph.D.s who testified, including 10 university science professors. My role initially was to cross-examine scientists who would come on and rebut them. But those scientists boycotted. So, I wasn't able to pose the questions I had planned that focus on such books as "Molecular Biology of the Cell," authored or co-authored by Bruce Alberts (ph), the former head of the National Academy of Sciences.

There are very serious scientific questions here, and there are scientists, professors in universities who acknowledge these, who recognize them, who would like to teach them. I have a client, Caroline Crocker (ph), my law firm, Arnold & Porter, from George Mason University who wishes to teach this subject.

COSTELLO: OK. Let's let Rob jump in. So, why didn't these -- why didn't scientists of your ilk join in that debate in Kansas?

BOSTON: Well, it was interesting. In Kansas, the state essentially was trying to put evolution on trial, which is ridiculous. It's like putting the theory of gravity on trial or the germ theory of disease. And mainstream scientists rightly decided they weren't going to participate in a farce like that. That it was ridiculous. That it was done for show purposes to get a big splash in the media. And they weren't going to dignify that by taking part in it. And I think they made the right decision.

Again, we have to look at what the consensus is. You know, there may be rogue scientists out there who back this idea. But the 99.9 percent are on the side of Darwinian evolution. And when you have an overwhelming consensus like that, it's up to the people who disagree with that to make their case in the scientific community. And they haven't done that. Instead, they have gone to the media. They have turned to the political system to give them credibility that the scientific community has denied them.

COSTELLO: Well, let's talk about politics, because the president came out and said, you know, maybe it should be taught in schools. Maybe everything should be presented to our children. Because the president said this, Edward, because I know you have several lawsuits filed across the country, do you think this will help you in your fight?

SISSON: Well, first, I would like to congratulate President Bush, because he did exactly the right thing. Second, to clarify, my firm personally does not have several lawsuits filed, but certainly there are various pending lawsuits. I think that it will help, because it helps to establish that this is a credible concern. That there are credible doubts about the proposition that natural selection alone could have produced the great diversity of species and living creatures that we see.

COSTELLO: So, Rob, your thoughts on that. And then we have to go.

BOSTON: Well, I think it's completely irrelevant what Bush said from a scientific perspective. All that proves is that he wasn't paying attention during freshman biology classes at Yale University. And he should have been.

COSTELLO: Edward Sisson, Rob Boston, thanks to you both for joining DAYBREAK this morning.

BOSTON: Thank you.

SISSON: Thank you very much.

COSTELLO: Saudi Arabia's Prince Abdullah is being crowned king, and our CNN correspondent at the ceremony has just called in to us, Nic Robertson.

What are you seeing in Riyadh right now?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Carol, chaotic scenes here at a massive palace in the center of Riyadh. Hundreds, even thousands, of people, Saudis, coming into, crowding into the palace to come and pay homage to the new king.

They have been -- there have been appeals to national papers for people by clerics for people to come forward and pledge their allegiance to the king. And what we're seeing are tribal leaders coming forward, representing their tribes, literally hundreds of them, old and young, crowding into this massive palace.

We've also seen a little earlier the new king meeting with foreign dignitaries who have come here to pay their respects in the death of his half-brother. What we saw a little earlier was a room containing perhaps 100-120 dignitaries, including Prince Charles from Britain, all waiting to meet the king.

There are so many people in the king's entourage. I watched as they crowded into the room. So many people pushing and shoving. The scenes are quite chaotic. But as people do approach the king, the situation seems to calm down and respects are paid -- Carol.

COSTELLO: Nic Robertson reporting live for us from Riyadh. Thank you.

We're going to talk about what's happening up in space right after a short break. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Two of the shuttle astronauts are making their third spacewalk right now. But today's excursion outside of the orbiter may be a little more important than the other two -- a lot more important. That's because they're trying an unprecedented repair job on the shuttle's exterior. Take a look at those -- oh, it's just fascinating.

Joining me now from the Johnson Space Center in Houston is astronaut and veteran spacewalker Scott Parazynski.

Good morning, Scott.

SCOTT PARAZYNSKI, NASA ASTRONAUT: Good morning.

COSTELLO: First of all, I want to tell our -- I want you to tell our viewers what it's like to initially walk out of that hatch and now you're in space. What does that feel like?

PARAZYNSKI: Well, it's really game day. Of course, the views are spectacular beyond anything you could possibly imagine. But you've been training for years for this, and you know that the world is watching. What you're doing is very important. So, you're very focused.

COSTELLO: Oh, exactly. But I mean as far as what you're feeling. I mean, do you come out and do you see the Earth spinning beneath you? Does it feel like you're falling?

PARAZYNSKI: Actually, the view is beneath you is just overwhelming. It's -- you know, you're traveling at 5 miles a second over the Earth's surface. Tremendous vistas. You know, I recall on my spacewalks flying through the Northern Lights, for example, and just being overpowered by it.

But then you have to get back into the game and, you know, focus on the job at hand. And so, there are brief moments during this spacewalk in particular that the crews had a few moments to sit back and enjoy the view. But the rest of the spacewalk, of course, is going to be very interesting and very challenging.

COSTELLO: It is going to be challenging. I'm just wondering if the biggest shock to your system, though, is actually stepping out of that hatch.

PARAZYNSKI: Actually, again, the focus that you have, it's like preparing for a national sporting event or the Olympics. It's something you've been training for, for so long. You're very, very focused. And it's only those brief moments when you get the chance to let down your guard where you can really take it all in. And especially at the beginning of the spacewalk, you're really, really concentrating.

COSTELLO: So much is riding on this repair. I'm just wondering about the night before for astronaut Steve Robinson. I mean, he's got to be thinking about how important this is; that this has never been done in space. And I know you say you know you have a job to do, but, you know, some people would have a few nightmares.

PARAZYNSKI: Well, obviously the importance of this is it can't be understated -- or overstated, rather. We have to go fix this. So, a lot of preparation has gone into this, both on the ground. A huge team of folks have assembled this plan, have tested it. We've briefed the crew on orbit, gone through procedure reviews. And he's certainly very, very prepared for it, but I'm sure he had some butterflies last night, maybe not as restful a sleep as some of the others on this flight.

COSTELLO: I bet so. OK. Take us through exactly what he'll do. He's going to have forceps and a hacksaw.

PARAZYNSKI: That's right. Of course, it's not like doing a repair in your workshop or in your home. You've got a big pressure suit. You're wearing a spacesuit glove that's pressurized. But the task at hand is actually fairly straightforward the way we anticipate it.

This is the sample of the gap filler. It's a ceramic-impregnated material. And it's glued in basically with some RTV rubber. And what we think has happened is on the ascent, the launch, the vibrations worked its way out of the tile, so it's protruding about an inch from the surface. What we think Steve will go do is grab on with it with his spacesuit gloves and simply pull it out of the crevice. And game over. Of course...

COSTELLO: It sounds so simple.

PARAZYNSKI: We have lots of contingency plans available to us. This is set of a EVA forceps. Of course, everything that we have we on tethers, so that we don't lose the tools. He would then go in and clamp these down on the gap filler and try and pull it out with a little bit more controlled force through the forceps.

If that did not work, step three, he could actually go in with a modified hacksaw blade and actually cut the material. And you can actually cut it very close to the tile surface, very, very flush.

And barring that, we can go in with a pair of EVA scissors. And you'd leave a little bit more material on the surface of the tiles, but it gets pretty trim. And it would be enough to sustain a normal entry.

COSTELLO: Well, all of those cameras will be pointed right at astronaut Steve Robinson, watching him do any one of those things that you just showed us. Thank you very much, Scott Parazynski.

PARAZYNSKI: You're welcome.

COSTELLO: Joining us live from the Johnson Space Center in Houston.

Still to come on DAYBREAK, of course, it's time for our cheesy mug segment. But that's after a break. First, we have to say happy birthday.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Amazing stories from the passengers who survived that fiery plane crash in Toronto.

Let's head over to the "AMERICAN MORNING" studios and check in with Soledad O'Brien.

Good morning.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Hey, Carol, good morning to you.

That's right, 309 people on board, 309 survivors to tell you about. We're going to meet two of them this morning from that crash landing in Toronto. We'll ask them exactly what was happening on board right before they were able to get out and escape. Some of them have described the experience as somewhat surreal. I would imagine that would be the case.

Also, don't forget we're going to be keeping a close watch on that risky repair job that's going on in space. Miles will have the very latest on that throughout the morning.

Those stories ahead...

COSTELLO: All right...

S. O'BRIEN: ... and much more as well, Carol, at the hour.

COSTELLO: Oh, sorry to hurry you a little. We've got Barbara Starr at the Pentagon, though. She's going to tell us more about these Marines that were killed in Iraq near Haditha in western Iraq.

Barbara -- what more can you tell us?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: This word now just coming into the Pentagon, Carol, very early this morning, 14 U.S. Marines and their civilian interpreter killed in action earlier today when their amphibious assault vehicle was attacked by an improvised explosive device, one of those IEDs, near Haditha in northwestern Iraq.

Of course, this is the same area that on Monday six U.S. Marines were also killed in apparently some type of small-arms ambush that has yet to be fully explained.

This could not come at a more difficult time for the U.S. military. There are ongoing discussions right now with the Iraqis about the security situation in Iraq, trying to see what areas of Iraq might be secure enough for U.S. forces to begin that troop drawdown, that withdrawal, and turn it over to Iraqi security forces.

Of course, this area of Haditha is in the part of Iraq that really has seen so much insurgent activity over the last several months, another indicator that there are certainly parts of Iraq where Iraqi security forces, especially in the west, certainly are not able to take over the security situation. In fact, in that ambush on Monday that, we are told by our sources, there is great concern that the Marines somehow were compromised by infiltrators into the Iraqi security forces, people who might have given away their position.

So, this also comes at an awkward time, because, of course, on August 15 the Iraqis are supposed to have that draft constitution ready, which is indeed a very significant step forward towards a newly-elected political democracy in Iraq. But still, with the insurgency going on, with the violence certainly not appearing to be decreasing to any great degree, at least in these areas of western Iraq, it comes all at a very difficult time -- Carol.

COSTELLO: Barbara Starr live at the Pentagon. You'll have more for us in the next hour, I'm sure. Thank you.

We're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: OK.

CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Yes.

COSTELLO: Now we can give away the mug.

MYERS: It's time. No, we can't give away a mug.

COSTELLO: Oh, that's right.

MYERS: Because we didn't get any questions in yesterday. But the only mug I have is this little cup here for you. The mug for today, answer these questions and you win. What is the name of the astronaut making today's repairs to the space shuttle? That's number one. And how much could some moviegoers receive as a result of the class-action lawsuit against Sony Pictures?

Go to CNN.com/daybreak. And we will randomly pick one of the correct answers for the winner tomorrow.

COSTELLO: Random? I thought it was scientific.

MYERS: It's not scientific, it's random. Well, isn't science random sometimes?

COSTELLO: We've already had that debate earlier.

(WEATHER REPORT)

COSTELLO: From the Time Warner center in New York, I'm Carol Costello along with Chad Myers. "AMERICAN MORNING" starts right now.

S. O'BRIEN: Thanks, Carol. I'm Soledad O'Brien. Was it lightning or wind shear or something else? We're following new developments this morning in the crash of an Air France jetliner in Canada as the official accident inquiry begins.

Plus, the people who miraculously made it out alive; 309 on board, all 309 survived, evacuating in the smoke and the fire. How did they get out?

M. O'BRIEN: I'm Miles O'Brien. We're following breaking news in space for you. Shuttle astronaut Steve Robinson, his forceps and hacksaw at the ready, heading beneath Discovery before too long, the fate of the entire crew literally in his hands.

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