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Nancy Grace
Nancy Grace for August 4, 2005, CNNHN
Aired August 04, 2005 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, a young female Catholic school writing instructor, the mother of four, the wife of the local bank president, and allegedly obsessed with teacher-student sex. Her defense: She`s the victim.
And two eagle-eyed police officers happen to spot three men tossing a trunk off a bridge into the Passaic River after the murder and dismemberment of a 16-year-old girl. The case is cracked. It all went down while the 18-year-old killers` parents were asleep upstairs.
And we go live to Aruba. Natalee Holloway`s mom turns the heat up on Aruban authorities. Are they covering up a murder by an Aruban judge`s son, Joran Van Der Sloot?
Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. And I want to thank you for being with us tonight.
It is day 67 in the Natalee Holloway missing girl case. Judge`s son and chief suspect Joran Van Der Sloot goes day three of intense questioning.
And 16-year-old Jennifer Parks was literally the girl next door. But did her 18-year-old neighbor stab and choke her to death in the basement of his parents` home while they were sound asleep upstairs?
Jonathan Zarate only apprehended when a local cop happened to spot him lugging a trunk over a bridge into the muddy waters of the Passaic River.
But first tonight, a Catholic school teacher faces rape charges for having sex with young students. The defense says she`s the victim.
Tonight, on the phone from Cape May, New Jersey, John Aretakis. He is the lawyer for the 17-year-old student allegedly sexually involved with that teacher. In Seattle, defense attorney Anne Bremner; in New York, defense attorney Daniel Horowitz; in L.A., psychoanalyst Bethany Marshall.
Let`s go straight out to Anne Bremner. Anne Bremner, you worked on the Mary Kay Letourneau case. What`s with the teachers having sex with the students? It happens over, and over, and over.
ANNE BREMNER, TRIAL ATTORNEY: All right, well, remember that Van Halen song, "Hot for Teacher," "Homework was never quite like this"? I mean, Mary`s case shocked the world. And I was involved in the civil case, remember, Nancy?
She gets attention everywhere all the time, any move she makes. She`s married to him now. When she was released it was international press. And now we`ve got these kind of a -- I think a spate of cases in the last year since she was released.
And they`re beautiful women that are involved with these teenage boys. And curiouser and curiouser. And very strange, indeed.
GRACE: Let`s go straight out to Joe Mahoney. He`s the Albany bureau chief with the "New York Daily News."
Joe, just when I thought it couldn`t get any more unusual, here you`ve got the wife of the bank president, all right? She looks like a soccer mom, beautiful. Now, she`s claiming she`s the victim. Bring me up-to- date.
JOE MAHONEY, BUREAU CHIEF, "NEW YORK DAILY NEWS": Right, well, this is the latest twist in this. And her lawyer is saying that she was the victim and that these boys were really pestering her, calling her up on her cell phone. Actually, the phone calls were going both ways.
But I think what he`s doing, Nancy, is really laying the groundwork for some kind of a plea deal, because he knows that these boy`s family would rather not put them on the witness stand and be subject to the glare of all of this attention.
GRACE: Well, what`s interesting is that she`s now claiming she`s the victim. And why is that, Joe, because she been drinking and she`s claiming the 16-year-old took advantage of her?
MAHONEY: Right. She`s claiming she was not really in her right mind. She`s got an alcohol problem. We actually broke that story here a couple of nights ago, and that was the lead of the next day`s local paper.
But she`s been in A.A., going to these alcohol rehabs, overnight stays. So she`s been trying to clean up her act.
GRACE: OK.
MAHONEY: But it`s been -- it was after the fact. It was too late. She was in the throes of an alcoholic binge, apparently, doing those weeks, if you believe what the lawyer`s now saying.
GRACE: Well, Joe, I understand she`s claiming she was drunk when the 16-year-old took advantage of her. But what happened the other two times the 16-year-old took advantage of her?
And what about the three other 17-year-olds? Did they all take advantage of her on numerous occasions? Do you think a jury is going to buy that?
MAHONEY: We now know there`s some new information that`s just out that apparently she had sex with the 16-year-old in three different locations, or rape, as you would say, because she`s being charged with rape at least twice. And the D.A.`s office is now saying they intend to charge her with a third count of rape involving the same victim.
GRACE: OK. So he took advantage of her, a 42-year-old woman, on three different occasions. OK, take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN ARETAKIS, LAWYER FOR BOY CAUGHT WITH TEACHER IN PARKING LOT: I guess, at this point, he might not feel as traumatized as we and his family believe he will be in the future. But let me back up just a little bit on what Joe Mahoney said.
This case actually started back in February of 2005. Beth Geisel went on a trip with the Christian Brothers Academy school trip, with all the boys down to Florida. And on that trip, she provided alcohol to a lot of boys, drank with them, and actually got so drunk on one occasion she was carried home by four juniors and thrown into her hotel.
JOHN FITZGIBBONS, LAFAVE`S ATTORNEY: As we told the court, I anticipate that we will shortly be filing a notice of insanity defense on behalf of Debbie. Over the last several months, we`ve had some doctors evaluate Debbie and also review a number of medical records going back a number of years.
Debbie has some profound emotional issues that are not her fault. I think once anyone reads what the doctors have to say, they will understand a lot more about what happened here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK. Let me go to Daniel Horowitz, veteran trial lawyer.
We see the defense`s -- the possibility shaping up here -- first of all, voluntary intoxication, Daniel Horowitz, very rarely a defense. Otherwise, the jail would be empty, Daniel. Everybody would say, "I was drunk, OK?" Nobody`s guilty; they`re all just drunk.
Or you`ve got insanity. That`s what LaFave is going to claim down in Florida.
DANIEL HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, Nancy, you`re entirely right. These defenses really don`t hold up because they don`t pass the reality test.
What`s going on is this lawyer is threatening the family, threatening the school, and saying, "I`m going to make such a fuss out of this. Is that kid really hurt and as victimized as you say, or is this just a technical offense?" He was too young, but it really didn`t harm him.
GRACE: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Hold on. What did you just say?
HOROWITZ: OK, now, we differ on this. I most...
GRACE: Did you say a "technical offense"?
HOROWITZ: Yes. Nancy, me and you disagree on this.
GRACE: This is full-blown sex between an adult teacher and her student.
HOROWITZ: Yes, Nancy.
GRACE: So this would be technical -- how would this not be rape?
HOROWITZ: Nancy, it`s not rape, because in this society, when 16- year-old boys or young men sleep with older women, it is different than when a young woman is in the same situation and she`s the young one, and it`s a male adult.
That`s reality. That`s our world. It`s the male genes. It`s how we are, Nancy. It did not harm this young man. It`s just a civil lawsuit being made up by lawyers. It`s just not the same as when a young girl is victimized. That`s why.
GRACE: Bethany Marshall, let`s talk about a sexist society. You know what? Listen, we got to vote. We can burn our bra. Great, but, uh-uh, no. Nobody thought, none of our foremothers fought so we could have the right to avoid rape charges.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Right. Well, here`s the only difference, as I can see it, is that boys often -- or adolescent boys report the experience of having been abused differently than women.
Sometimes there more shame. Sometimes the boy will see it as an act of sexual initiation; the girl will see it as an experience of traumatic abuse. But longitudinal studies show that men and women alike suffer equally from the long-term effects of sexual abuse. They feel ashamed. They feel sexual disinhibited. They have a hard time forming close, interpersonal relationships.
GRACE: Anne Bremner, regarding this case, do you think there`s any way that the defense can actually convince a jury, that, a, she was voluntarily intoxicated and taken advantage of, we know of seven times, or that she was insane?
BREMNER: That`s going to be tough, Nancy. You know, Mary Kay Letourneau said the same thing, that Vili Fualaau was the aggressor and that she had bipolar disorder or manic depression and that`s why she offended.
But here`s where I think really they need to go, Nancy. And it`s this. There are a lot of studies that show the boys are not as damaged as girls. And this came out in our civil case in Letourneau.
And, in fact, it is a right of passage, in terms of our sexist society. But the final thing is, women are not predatory. And women don`t have multiple victims. They`re not prolific. And they don`t go out and do things like in the Groene case.
So in terms of sentencing, in terms of trying to get treatment, and in terms of trying to get some kind of a deal, she`s got everything in the world to work with, by virtue of what I`ve just said.
GRACE: Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVE HEIDER, CHIEF OF COLONIE POLICE: Unfortunately, it`s a part of our sexist part of society. And typically, a lot of times, young males are looked upon as not being able to be victims, that it is a matter of conquest, instead of victimization. And in the social services field and law enforcement field, that`s just not the way it is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Let`s go to John Aretakis. He is the attorney for one of the alleged victims.
John Aretakis, thank you for being with us. Did you see this coming, the claim that, because this teacher was drunk, that`s her defense?
ARETAKIS: Well, Nancy. First of all, diminished capacity is not a defense to this type of case.
GRACE: Right.
ARETAKIS: Statutory rape cannot be defended by saying, "I was drunk," or even by even saying, "I didn`t know he was only 16." And I will say that, as an attorney who represents over 150 clergy sexual abuse victims, I received many calls today from victims who are outraged that someone of this lawyer`s stature would attack and intimidate a 16-year-old victim of this 43-year-old teacher.
GRACE: You know, speaking of the way that this is viewed amongst jurors -- that`s my concern. We can all have a theory. But what if you get 12 jurors that believe it`s OK when a female teacher has sex with a young student? Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HEIDER: Unfortunately, in our society, our society probably precludes a lot of young men from reporting, because it`s been felt that it`s a conquest and not a victimization.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Children, whether they`re male or female, can be victims of predators in our community. And it shouldn`t make a difference if the victims are, in fact, young boys.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Well, another issue, Bethany Marshall -- and, boy, do we need a shrink -- is, do you think some of these teachers -- we`ve always heard it in the reverse, where men relive their glory days. And they talk about how they were on the high school football team, and they were the student body president when they were 15.
Could it be the reverse, where these women are reliving being prom queen and cheerleading captain?
MARSHALL: No. Men and women molest for different reasons. Men who molest often fit the DSM for criteria for something called pedophilia, which is a disorder. Women molest often because either they were molested themselves in childhood. They have what we call personality disorders, and that causes them to turn to inappropriate sources for attention. Or they have...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: You know, I like the way you say "inappropriate" when, Bethany, we`re talking about rape.
MARSHALL: Children.
GRACE: Rape.
MARSHALL: That`s right.
GRACE: It`s a 16-year-old boy. But wait a minute. I want you to hear this, Bethany. I`m about to play something for you that I call goo- goo-gah-gah baby talk. This is Owen LaFave phone conversations.
As you all know, Debbie LaFave down in Florida is facing trial for sex with a student. Take a listen to this phone conversation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OWEN LAFAVE, HUSBAND OF TEACHER ACCUSED OF HAVING SEX WITH STUDENT: She`s being a baby -- although, I have to disclose that she did use the pinkie finger on me before. Although that conversation, it really does -- it sounds like she`s 10-years-old and he`s 14. He almost sounds like he`s the adult there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Hey, Elizabeth, could you rack up the actual phone conversation? Bethany, when you hear this, it`s almost as if the roles are reversed, where the teacher, the adult teacher, is the girl, and the little boy is the adult male.
Oh, wait, hold on. I`ve got it. Go ahead, Elizabeth. Thanks.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FOURTEEN-YEAR-OLD BOY: Oh, all right. So what time are you planning on heading over?
DEBRA LAFAVE, TEACHER ACCUSED OF HAVING SEX WITH STUDENT: Are you sure? Like, I just feel -- I mean, I don`t want you lying to your mom. I mean, it`s like...
FOURTEEN-YEAR-OLD BOY: No, it`s all right. She`s gone in a sales meeting, like all day.
LAFAVE: You`re sure?
FOURTEEN-YEAR-OLD BOY: Yes.
LAFAVE: All right, promise?
FOURTEEN-YEAR-OLD BOY: Yes.
LAFAVE: Pinkie promise.
FOURTEEN-YEAR-OLD BOY: Yes.
LAFAVE: Say pinkie promise.
FOURTEEN-YEAR-OLD BOY: Pinkie promise.
LAFAVE: All right. Tell me a time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FOURTEEN-YEAR-OLD BOY: Oh, all right. So what time are you planning on heading over?
LAFAVE: Are you sure? Like, I just feel -- I mean, I don`t want you lying to your mom. I mean, it`s like...
FOURTEEN-YEAR-OLD BOY: No, it`s all right. She`s gone in a sales meeting, like all day.
LAFAVE: You`re sure?
FOURTEEN-YEAR-OLD BOY: Yes.
LAFAVE: All right, promise?
FOURTEEN-YEAR-OLD BOY: Yes.
LAFAVE: Pinkie promise.
FOURTEEN-YEAR-OLD BOY: Yes.
LAFAVE: Say pinkie promise.
FOURTEEN-YEAR-OLD BOY: Pinkie promise.
LAFAVE: All right. Tell me a time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Whoa, pinkie promise? This is a grown lady. She`s having sex with a child. Pinkie promise?
OK, we`ll all be right back. We could get really tangled up in this mind game. But the reality is, another teacher at a Catholic school is now charged with rape of a student. Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD KINSELLA, LAWYER FOR BETH GEISEL: How could someone be carted off to jail from their ordinary life and not have regrets about anything?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARY KAY LETOURNEAU, CONVICTED OF HAVING SEX WITH STUDENT: Your honor, I did something that I have no right to do.
AMBER JENNINGS, CHARGED WITH SEX WITH MINOR: I can`t say anything. I`ve been advised not to say anything.
FITZGIBBONS: Debbie has some profound emotional issues that are not her fault.
LETOURNEAU: I give you my word that it will not happen again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: It`s not her fault? She`s got emotional issues that are not her fault? She had sex with a student, a 14-year-old student, in the back of a car. How can that not be her fault, Daniel Horowitz?
HOROWITZ: I think you know where this attorney`s going, jury nullification.
GRACE: No, actually, I would never have said that. I would say they`re going for first-degree child sexual battery. That`s what I would say. But go ahead. Try it out on me.
HOROWITZ: All right, here`s how I see it. You look for jurors who ultimately see this 16-year-old kid and say, "He was not hurt. He was mature. He could handle it." We don`t like the nature of the law that says that this is always a crime of rape or even sexual battery.
Then the lawyer comes up with some sort of mental health excuse and says to the jury, "It doesn`t really make a whole lot of sense, but if you want to let my client off the hook, buy into that, use that as your argument." And with a wink and a nod, they just say the law is just not proper under these circumstances. So not guilty.
GRACE: OK, so the law isn`t proper.
Joe Mahoney, I`ve heard a lot of defense theories in this case. But I think what is going to defeat all of them, will be the fact that it`s not just one incident, Joe, it is now allegedly three incidents with a 16-year- old boy. And then there are three additional 17-year-old students.
MAHONEY: Right. When you look at the preponderance of the evidence, and all of the statements virtually match up. And the biggest problem is going to be the birth certificate on the 16-year-old, because there`s no way you can get around the fact that he`s not 17 years old yet.
But I think the lawyer here, Donald Kinsella, is just being a strong advocate at this point. He`s a former prosecutor. I think he`s just trying to be a good advocate for his client here. He`s playing a little hardball and throwing a brush-pack back at this alleged victim.
GRACE: Well, you know, another thing, I know that the defendant in this case does not have custody of her children, Joe Mahoney, but it`s my understanding that, during one of these incidents, there was a party at her home, booze was involved, minors were there, and her children were there.
I mean, Joe, I don`t know how you grew up. But I just can`t imagine my parents having a booze party with my teenage friends, and my mom going off to the bedroom with one of my school friends.
MAHONEY: And I think Donald Kinsella would admit, if he were here tonight, that his client is certainly guilty of very bad judgment, even if she just had sex with 17 year old boys, he knows, and she would know now that that`s wrong, that she crossed the line.
GRACE: Well, you know what? I think we`re splitting hairs.
Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, we`re talking about splitting hairs, knowing something is wrong. To heck with that. The ignorance of the law is not a defense. That is a tried and true legal tenet.
The fact that this kid is 16 years old makes this a crime. If Lady Justice supposed to take off her blind fold when the victim is a boy?
MARSHALL: A 16-year-old cannot give consent. And that makes it rape. And the fact is, when you think about child sexual abuse, sexual abuse is stimulating a child to feel feelings he`s not yet ready to handle. And that`s what happened in this case.
It doesn`t matter what the boy`s self-report was. What matters is that he was stimulated to feel feelings he`s too young to manage and regulate. And that will scar him.
GRACE: Even if a child thinks they can give consent, the law says you cannot.
MARSHALL: Right.
GRACE: Now, the whole mind of these female teachers is another can of worms. Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FOURTEEN-YEAR-OLD BOY: Oh, all right. So what time are you planning on heading over?
DEBRA LAFAVE, TEACHER ACCUSED OF HAVING SEX WITH STUDENT: Are you sure? Like, I just feel -- I mean, I don`t want you lying to your mom. I mean, it`s like...
FOURTEEN-YEAR-OLD BOY: No, it`s all right. She`s gone in a sales meeting, like all day.
LAFAVE: You`re sure?
FOURTEEN-YEAR-OLD BOY: Yes.
LAFAVE: All right, promise?
FOURTEEN-YEAR-OLD BOY: Yes.
LAFAVE: Pinkie promise.
FOURTEEN-YEAR-OLD BOY: Yes.
LAFAVE: Say pinkie promise.
FOURTEEN-YEAR-OLD BOY: Pinkie promise.
LAFAVE: All right. Tell me a time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Pinkie promise, Ellie. Pinkie promise.
You know, this is crazy. It`s like these teachers have reverted back to their high school days and are now predators on young boys. I just wonder, will it be taken seriously because the alleged victims are little boys?
Very quickly to "Trial Tracking." Breaking news in the Martha Stewart case. Stewart`s house arrest extended three weeks. Tonight, officials refuse to explain the extended punishment, but sources say Stewart violated house arrest by attending yoga class and riding an all terrain vehicle around her property, the property surrounding her mansion.
Stewart served a five-month prison sentence at Alderson Correctional Institute for lying about a stock sale.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Beth Geisel had nothing to say as she turned herself into Colonie police to face felony rape charges. Geisel is accused of having sex with a 16 year old student twice in May, once in her Colonie home and once in the press box at the football field at Christian Brothers Academy.
HEIDER: Unfortunately, it`s a part of our sexist part of society. And typically, a lot of time, young males are looked upon as not being able to be victims, that is a matter of conquest instead of victimization. And in the social services field and law enforcement field, that`s just not the way it is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace.
To Joe Mahoney, the Albany bureau chief for the "New York Daily News." Well, Joe, some people may not take it seriously, but I think the district attorney disagrees. What is she looking at?
MAHONEY: Well, it would be up to four years for each count of rape, Nancy. And that would be in the state prison setting. So four times four -- if she gets charged with two additional counts of rape and sodomy -- that would add up to 16 years.
But that would be unlikely. I do think that this will be plea bargained, given the pressure on the D.A.`s office not to have a trial. And not to...
GRACE: Why? Why is there pressure not to have a trial? Why should she get a light sentence?
MAHONEY: Well, because there`s no indication that the families or the boys are chomping at the bit to go to trial. In fact, the defense lawyer seems to be capitalizing on the boy`s own statements.
And if you read those statements, according to them, this was a big adventure and they were having fun. And they were -- they did not go to the police, and they did not go to the hospital. They did not act as you might act, god forbid, if you were raped.
GRACE: Joe, we`ll see. Thank you for being with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, MOTHER OF MISSING GIRL: The facts are that those three individuals and the father have knowledge, and they have got to come forward with it. I mean, they see what we have been put through, the entire world, as we`re watching, for the last two months. And we`ve just got -- we`ve gotten a huge commitment of involvement from the FBI, which is wonderful, Holland`s involvement. But the four individuals have to come on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. Beth Holloway, down in Aruba, searching for her daughter. She says she vows to continue to fight.
Tonight, in Aruba, Natalee Holloway`s uncle, Paul Reynolds, is with us. And managing director and editor of "Diario" newspaper, Jossy Mansur. But first to WBMA reporter Anastasiya Bolton. Anastasiya, bring me up to date. This is another day of an intense questioning for Joran Van Der Sloot.
ANASTASIYA BOLTON, WBMA-TV: Absolutely, Nancy, another day, the third day of intense questioning, but interrogators are getting nowhere absolutely, they tell me. They still say he`s being uncooperative. Joran Van Der Sloot has been questioned all day. They can question him from early in the morning and late into the night. But the prosecutor and the judge in this case are saying maybe he needs his health checked, but they`re not elaborating on why exactly they`re saying that.
GRACE: His health checked? Oh, I don`t like...
BOLTON: Apparently.
GRACE: I don`t like the way this is going at all! Jossy Mansur, his health checked?
JOSSY MANSUR, MANAGING EDITOR, "DIARIO": I don`t think so. The reports we have of him in prison is that he looks OK, he looks down, but that he looks healthy.
GRACE: Well, Jossy, didn`t you tell me the other night that during all this questioning, Joran Van Der Sloot, the judge`s son, will sit there with his hands over his ears?
MANSUR: Yes. It comes to a point where he doesn`t want to answer any more questions, his silence was sufficient, then he tell these people that he doesn`t want to even hear the questions. His puts his hands to his ears...
GRACE: Oh!
MANSUR: ... covers them like a kid.
GRACE: What, monkey hear no evil, monkey see no evil, monkey speak no evil. I`m sorry, Jossy, what were you saying? I decided to pretend I couldn`t hear. And the Aruban authorities are letting him get away with this, pretending he can`t hear? He actually sits there like that during questioning?
MANSUR: As I understand it, as a juvenile, he has the right to remain silent.
GRACE: Well, OK. You know, there`s a good question. Anastasiya Bolton, even adults in Aruba have the right to remain silent, I would assume. Isn`t he about to turn 18? Oh, there he goes! See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil!
BOLTON: Nancy, I want to point out that when he turns 18 on Saturday, his parents, especially his dad, I`m sure, who`s visiting him almost every day, will not be able to visit him as often. The parents will only be able to have visitations once a week, and that will start on Saturday.
GRACE: Well, you know -- psychoanalyst Bethany Marshall is with us. Bethany, the reality is this. He`s already been instructed by his father. The father and mother are visiting him frequently. According to Jossy Mansur with "Diario," he sits there with his hands over his ears, pretending he can`t hear. That`s not going to change. He is dug in. He`s not cracking. They`ve got to go to the Kalpoe brothers!
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: I think so, too, because when you take a look at the whole -- the whole course of this case, this kid, Joran Van Der Sloot, has total disregard for authority. He had disregard on the night that he met Natalee. If you look at all of his late-night carousing, staying up until 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning, he does not have respect for rules.
So, yes, I think they have to bring in the Kalpoe brothers. They need to use better interrogation techniques and get them to turn against each other. And also, he`s getting so much support by the dad. That has to be removed.
GRACE: Well, you know, Anne Bremner, I feel confident that they are going to let this case go cold down there and they`re going to let this judge`s son walk. Come September the 4th, that`s the day, if they don`t have charges formally filed, he walks, Anne!
ANNE BREMNER, TRIAL ATTORNEY: He does, Nancy. You`re absolutely right. And nothing from nothing leaves nothing. There`s nothing in this case. And he`s given so many statements, 22, we`ve heard, you know, that it`s almost -- it`s almost reminiscent, though, Nancy, of, like, the old cases of the bare lightbulb swinging in the wind. I mean, how many times can you go to someone and say, Say it, say it, when they`re, like, you know, La, la, la, la, la? I mean, that`s what he`s doing.
So the case is over unless they immunize somebody and say, Will you turn on your co-defendant or your co-accused? But you know, you`re always right, and you`re especially right in this instance, Nancy.
GRACE: Paul Reynolds, how do you think the questioning is going right now? We`ve got the questioning of Joran Van Der Sloot still going on. We`ve got the search of the landfill still going on. What is your take on it?
PAUL REYNOLDS, UNCLE OF MISSING GIRL: Well, I`m glad we are interrogating Joran some more. I think that is absolutely necessary, and to continue doing it. I think, you know, people need to be questioned in addition to Joran. The Kalpoe brothers, certainly, we think have information, but we think there`s also other people that have information.
GRACE: Like who?
REYNOLDS: My sister -- well, just, you know, take, for example -- my sister, Beth, visited with some of the kids that were on the trip last weekend when she was home. She found out a lot of information about that night and particulars about what was happening, you know, possibly why things happened the way they did. And then there`s another girl that came forward to my sister this week, a young girl that was on vacation here last April, that kind of demonstrated a pattern of predatorship that Joran had establish there at Carlos and Charlie`s.
And you know, in the same manner that this information has come forward, even two months later, other information from people on the island can come forward. We know there are people out there that have this information, and we`re making a public appeal for them to come forward with that.
GRACE: You know what`s amazing to me, Anastasiya Bolton -- Anastasiya is with WBMA -- that people are actually complaining that Texas Equusearch -- everybody, if you didn`t already know, a special team of searchers has flown down on their own dime to Aruba to try to find Natalee. People there in Aruba were actually complaining, Anastasiya, that Texas Equusearch dislodged some sea turtle eggs!
BOLTON: Yes, a park ranger reported, and Associated Press is quoted as saying that the Texas Equusearch group, while searching a remote beach on July 29, did destroy an endangered turtles` nest. The Texas Equusearch group vehemently denies it. They say they never dug there. They say they just went around the area. They say they`ve done no damage whatsoever. So the parties, at this point, are at odds.
But by the way, Texas Equusearch is staying on the island through the end of the week, still searching the landfill. They still have one more location outside of the landfill to search. Still, they say, no help from the government that said, You know what? We`ll give you some equipment. No help whatsoever, they tell me today.
GRACE: Jossy Mansur, I cannot believe that the Aruban government is complaining about a sea turtle egg being dug up on the beach, when this team is there with no help from the Aruban government, trying to find clues about Natalee!
MANSUR: Well, I can`t speak for the government because I`m not in government. And I don`t believe the government did this. This is a park ranger that may work for some part of the government, but I haven`t heard...
GRACE: A park ranger...
MANSUR: ... any complaint...
GRACE: ... that works for the government actually came down on Texas Equusearch for an egg, a turtle egg! Yes, that`s what they`re having to deal with!
I`m going to ask Paul Reynolds. Have the Aruban government given Texas Equusearch any help, like they promised they would?
REYNOLDS: You know, we had problems, especially in the beginning. And you know, I talked to some people today about this incident about the turtle eggs. You know, the people at Equusearch are great people and very ecologically-minded. They certainly would never have intentionally endangered any turtle eggs. There`s absolutely no evidence that they did. You know, what -- the park ranger has come forward and said that something happened to them. You know, he didn`t see Equusearch do anything, but they`re saying that they think that Equusearch was the only people in there at that time.
GRACE: Well, I don`t want to get bogged down in a turtle egg right now. I want to find out from you, Jossy Mansur, how the search of the landfill is going?
MANSUR: It`s going very well. They`ve covered a lot of territory. They have a lot still to go. One important thing is that the witness that pointed out this pick-up dropping a body over there is participating in the search. The man was checked out very totally, and his story sticks like gum.
GRACE: Interesting. Bethany Marshall, why would a guy who is lying about seeing someone dumping a body there at the landfill be out there searching in this heat if he wasn`t convinced he saw something?
MARSHALL: Well, I think it`s important to think about the witnesses in this case and why they have all come forward later on because, as I said in another show, in third-world countries, sometimes witnesses are afraid to come forward. And in the case of Jossy Mansur, who did the wonderful detective work -- he found the witnesses, and he gave them some verbal assurance that the magazine would stand behind them. I think with those types of verbal guarantees and with national attention, some of these witnesses feel that they now can participate in the search with some type of immunity.
GRACE: And very quickly, Daniel Horowitz -- I`ve got to go to break - - but remember the Lori Hacking case and the landfill issue? That took two-and-a-half months to find any sign of Lori Hacking, but they did.
DANIEL HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I know. What concerns me, Nancy, is if this a dead end, it`s taking so much of the limited Aruban resources. We may be missing...
GRACE: Oh, please! They`re not doing anything.
HOROWITZ: Well, I know. This is about all they`re doing, and it could be just sifting through garbage for nothing. Let`s -- you know, it`s a waste of energy, possibly.
GRACE: Quick break, everyone. To "Trial Tracking." Breaking news in the Martha Stewart case. Stewart`s house arrest ended. We told you about that early.
And I now want to tell you about another case, Police and family still searching for Annamarie Cruz Randazzo, the 17-year-old honor student missing 15 days now. Annamarie vanished when she dropped off two friends after a movie. Annamarie`s car found set on fire near her home the next day.
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MERCEDITO WALTER, MOTHER: And she always called me for everything, I mean, for anything that she wants to discuss with me, you know, if she has trouble. And I`m hoping she -- I`m hoping she`s -- you know, she`s OK. And I want her to be -- you know, I want her to come home!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: If you have any information on Annamarie Cruz Randazzo, take a look. Call Cape Coral (ph) police department, 239-574-3223, $10,000 reward.
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MICHAEL RUBBINACCIO, MORRIS COUNTY PROSECUTOR: He beat her in the face and stomach with a metal pole that was used to secure the rear sliding glass door and then stabbed her multiple times with a knife.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: I`m sorry to report to you the death of a 16-year-old girl. She was everybody`s girl next door. She was crazy about Harry Potter. What a little sweetheart. Her 18-year-old neighbor is accused of her sudden and violent murder.
Tonight, in New York, Jonathan Zarate`s lawyer, Anthony Fusco, Jr. But first, let`s go to "Daily News" reporter Derek Rose. Derek, what happened?
DEREK ROSE, "DAILY NEWS": Jonathan invited Jennifer over to his house on 2:00 AM Friday to watch television. He flew into a violent rage, beat her to death, shove a bandana down her throat so she wouldn`t be able to scream, stabbed her, killed her and then cut off her legs with a knife, stuffed her into a trunk, the trunk in his father`s Jeep, went to two parties on Saturday. Then that night, around 3:00 AM, as he`s trying to dump the trunk into the river, is stopped by a passing police officer and was arrested.
GRACE: Gosh! You know, Derek, I noticed you had trouble even getting that out, the description of what happened to this little girl, 16. That`s the age of my little niece. All of these acts are alleged. Nothing has been proven yet.
Let`s go to Zarate`s defense attorney, Anthony Fusco. He`s a veteran defense attorney. And I got to tell you, Anthony, he`s going to need one because when the cop pulled up, an eagle-eye cop, he sees your client and two other young men about to throw a trunk over into the Passaic River. Now, forget about the murder for a moment. What`s he doing with a trunk with a dead, dismembered 16-year-old girl in there?
ANTHONY FUSCO, ATTORNEY FOR BOY, 18, ACCUSED OF KILLING 16-YEAR-OLD NEIGHBOR: There`s no question, all the facts that the -- Derek just talked about are probably about 100 percent accurate. But the key words are, He went into a rage. We don`t know why he went into a rage. We do know that the two apparently...
GRACE: Do we -- do we care?
FUSCO: ... were friends -- yes, you do have to care.
GRACE: Do we care why he went into a rage?
FUSCO: Yes, because...
GRACE: I got mad, so let me go?
FUSCO: No. You know, Nancy, sometimes these cases are not about guilt but about punishment and what is an appropriate punishment. In cases such as this, this man apparently gave a confession. I don`t think guilt is an issue here. I think appropriate punishment is. I don`t know whether he was insane at the time, and that`s been bandied about by almost everybody that gets involved in some of these cases, whether it was diminished capacity. We do know he went into a rage, but we don`t know why. That`s what...
GRACE: OK, I`ve got a tough question...
FUSCO: ... we have to figure out.
GRACE: ... for you.
FUSCO: Go ahead.
GRACE: When exactly did he go into the alleged temporary insane rage? Because he was pretty sane, according to these facts, when he was IM-ing the little girl next door to get her to come over and watch TV in the basement. He was sane to let her in and start watching TV. The murder went down. Then he was sane when he dismembered her and put her in the trunk, had a birthday party in the home, decided to bleach the floor with detergent, with bleach, to then throw the trunk over the side of the bridge into the Passaic River.
So where in there is the insanity, just the time of the murder?
FUSCO: The insanity or diminished capacity, whatever comes out, is always up to and at the time of the murder. What happens afterwards may be consciousness of guilt, but it doesn`t affect the degree of guilt. What you have here and what`s unfolding is you have two young people who apparently, for no reason at all, just struck a friendship up. They were neighbors. They actually lived next door.
And as I told a lot of people, if you`re going to really kill somebody, and if he had designs to kill her, which I honestly believe that that`s not an issue here, then you don`t invite somebody in your house with your father sleeping one flight up, your stepmother, your brother and another person in the house. You don`t do that with all these kind of witnesses. But something happened there. We`ve got to get to the bottom of this. And that`s what we`re doing.
GRACE: Well, I know -- I know something happened, all right. Derek Rose, how was this little girl killed?
ROSE: She was -- she was beaten to death. First, he punched her in the face. Then he used a glass -- a rod from a glass sliding door to beat her. He stuffed his bandana down her mouth so she wouldn`t scream. He`s stabbing her, and she died.
GRACE: The bandana down the mouth -- that type of action, I predict, is going to convince a jury, if it goes that far, he was not insane. Why else would he think to quieten her?
We`ll all be right back, everyone. But very quickly, to tonight`s "All Points Bulletin." FBI and law enforcement across the country on the lookout for this man, Niles Scott. Scott, wanted in connection with the sex assault of a young girl in Cleveland, Ohio, 49, 6-4, 220 pounds, salt- and-pepper hair, brown eyes, tattoo left shoulder. If you have any info on Niles Scott, call the FBI, 216-522-1400.
Local news coming up for some of you, but we`ll all be right back. And remember, live coverage of the trial of an Oregon man accused of killing his whole family, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, Court TV`s "Closing Arguments."
Please stay with us as we remember Lance Corporal Christopher Dyer, just 19, an American hero.
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GRACE: Jennifer Parks (ph), just 16 years old when she was murdered allegedly by her 18-year-old neighbor. All I know is that she was an only child. She was truly sweet 16, like me and my little niece, had just finished reading the last Harry Potter book.
Very quickly, to Derek Rose with "The New York Daily News." Is it true that on Sunday, when this girl`s dismembered body was sitting in a trunk, waiting to be dumped, Zarate attended a birthday party upstairs at his parents` house?
ROSE: Yes. He attended that birthday party. It was actually on Saturday. And then later that night, he attends a "Sweet 16" party. And that`s where he picks up a friend of his from Clifton (ph) and his younger brother.
GRACE: Right. Derek, when did Jennifer`s parents realize their only child was missing?
ROSE: They woke up that morning, Saturday morning, and she wasn`t there.
GRACE: And they were just desperate.
Very quickly, to Anthony Fusco, Jr. I`m giving his client a hard time, but I`ve got to tell you, Fusco, veteran trial lawyer, you know, the insanity defense doesn`t work very often, Anthony. I`m not even going to say John Hinckley, the guy that took a shot at President Reagan, took down Brady in the meantime. Of course, there was Mark David Chapman. Oh, there you go. He`s having supervised visits, by the way. Mark David Chapman shot Lennon. I mean, not a whole lot of success, Anthony.
FUSCO: There`s no question, Nancy, that the ratio of success of trying these cases like this is very, very low. But just because we raise, as defense attorneys, the issue of insanity doesn`t mean the person was insane...
GRACE: Really insane?
FUSCO: No, it doesn`t mean that he`s really insane. What happens more often is that you have an issue of whether his capacity was diminished. That`s something short of insanity defense. You also have the issue of whether or not he was under such a rage at the time, which is apparently he has told the prosecutor...
GRACE: OK, you know what? Anthony...
FUSCO: So I think if he says that, then I`ve got something to go on.
GRACE: I respect you...
FUSCO: And as I said, guilt is one thing...
GRACE: ... I disagree with you.
FUSCO: ... punishment...
GRACE: I think it`s...
FUSCO: ... punishment is another.
GRACE: I think it`s going to be difficult to convince a jury, Hey, I was mad when I killed my neighbor, set me free. We`ve got to go.
And I want to thank Anthony, all of my guests, but my biggest thank you is to you, for being with us tonight, inviting us into your homes. Coming up, headlines all around the world, Larry on CNN. I`m signing off for tonight. See you here tomorrow night, 8:00 o`clock sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.
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