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Nancy Grace
New Witnesses Surface in Smith Disappearance
Aired August 16, 2005 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, GUEST HOST: Tonight: honeymoon-turned-horror story, stunning developments in the mysterious disappearance of newlywed George Smith. The 26-year-old newlywed and his bride go on a 12-day luxury honeymoon cruise, but Smith never makes it home. Blood was found on the ship`s overhang. Weeks later, investigators still wondering what happened.
Good evening, everybody. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, filling in for Nancy Grace. Thanks for being with us tonight.
Day 79 in the search for the Alabama teen, Natalee Holloway. A new search team has been working around the clock in Aruba, hoping for evidence to piece together this blond beauty`s disappearance. Natalee vanished the last day of her high school graduation trip to the island. Will investigators` new tactics break primary suspect Joran Van Der Sloot? And what effect will the state`s key witness`s sworn statement have on the investigation?
But first tonight, a horrific and puzzling end to what was supposed to be a celebratory 12-day honeymoon cruise in the Mediterranean. It turns into a devastating mystery. Twenty-six-year-old George Smith and his bride, Jennifer, board the liner together, but Jennifer disembarks alone. Smith vanishes, but not without a trace. Blood is left behind in his cabin and on the ship. Is it foul play?
Tonight, in Stamford, Connecticut, from Colucci Investigations, Vito Colucci. In Philadelphia, defense attorney Joe Lawless. In San Francisco, defense attorney, and my old friend, Daniel Horowitz. In LA, former prosecutor Mary Fulginiti. And in New York, psychotherapist Caryn Stark.
But first to Syracuse, New York, and "A Current Affair" host Tim Green. You`ve got some new developments. What is the very latest?
TIM GREEN, HOST, "A CURRENT AFFAIR": Well, Jane, we`ve got a witness to the events that night who is actually a crew member on the ship. Right now, he wants to remain anonymous, and so we`re protecting his identity.
But he actually went down the elevator with George Smith and three other young men. The three young men got off, and he said that George Smith was -- continued to look for his bride, Jennifer. Three men got off at the pool, and then George got off at his floor. The crew member went down to where he was. He came back up subsequently, saying he forgot to lock the pantry upstairs. So when he came back up, George got back on. Then they stopped at the pool. The three guys get back on. They all went up to the disco again, looking for Jennifer. Then they went back down to George`s level, and all four of them got off, according to this witness, at George`s level.
And then the next day, he spoke with the guy who was staying in the cabin right next to George`s, who around that time -- now, you can`t be certain as to the timing of this, but this is the story that we`re reporting right now. Around that time, this guy heard a terrible fight in the Smith cabin. He heard the thump that everyone is presuming was George Smith going over the side, hitting that awning, creating that huge blood swatch, and then he went out into the hall and saw several young men.
Now, we -- this is -- this contradicts, actually, or may contradict the story that one of the young men`s attorneys said today on the "Today" show, Joshua Asking`s.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Thank you for that, Tim. Good work on that story.
And we have to say, from our legal standpoint, CNN has not been able to confirm any of this independently. And of course, we remind you at this point, there are officially no suspects and that Jennifer, the bride, is cooperating fully with authorities. And by the way, we invited members of both George Smith`s family, as well as his wife, Jennifer`s, to come on the show. They are not commenting at this time.
But the question I want to ask Mary Fulginiti is why is "A Current Affair" breaking the story? The FBI, according to that show, hasn`t talked to this witness yet. This happened on July 5. Why the delay?
MARY FULGINITI, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Yes. You know, in this type of case, especially a case where the crime occurs on the high seas, right, initially, you`ve got to figure out who`s got jurisdiction. And in these types of cases, in particular, you`ll see a delay, unfortunately, because here we had Turkey initially take over this investigation, and then, you know, a month-and-a-half later, hand it over to the United States authorities. So that is why we have a delay here with the U.S. authorities actually jumping on board and taking charge in this investigation. Why is "A Current Affair" breaking it? Well, they seem to be getting to witnesses, obviously, possibly before the FBI.
But it`s very -- you know, we have to be very careful to sit back and not be so pulled in by all of these statements that we`re hearing because much of it is rumor and innuendo. And there`s been no official statements that have come out of the FBI or out of the U.S. attorney`s office in Connecticut on this matter, so -- and we`ve also heard accounts about three crew members that, you know, allegedly brought him to his room, meaning George Smith`s, when he was intoxicated, around 3:30 in the morning, or they claimed he might have, you know, been drinking quite a bit. And now we have a new crew member who`s, you know, coming forward potentially stating that, Uh-uh, I was in the elevator with him and something else happened.
So it`s really important to let the federal authorities do their investigation and not jump to any conclusions at this point.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Mary, I think you`re absolutely right. This information vacuum is creating a lot of rumor and speculation. And I`d like to ask defense attorney Daniel Horowitz, why, then, does the FBI not come out and give more information? Because when you don`t say anything, you`re encouraging other people to come forward, and basically, you`re encouraging speculation, are you not?
DANIEL HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, you are, Jane. You know, we seem to like to publicize news events and suspicions because then a lot of the public comes forward and verifies whether our suspicions are true or not. But this is an unusual situation. We`re on a cruise ship, where many of the workers are afraid to come forward. They`re afraid to speak. And I think we`re also afraid -- the FBI is afraid of putting out a story that then people will latch onto and sort of embellish, when it`s not true. So they`re keeping their cards sort of hidden, gathering the evidence...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Daniel, I got to ask you -- I got to interrupt.
HOROWITZ: Yes?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Why are they so afraid to speak? Why would you be afraid to speak if you`ve done nothing wrong?
HOROWITZ: Oh! Well, unfortunately, Jane, you know, on these cruise ships, a lot of these workers are from poor countries. They get fired if they come forward. I believe that these cruise ship companies cover up a multitude of crimes. I think we really have to offer rewards to these workers. If you`re fired because you`ve spoken to the FBI or to private investigators, we`ll give you $5,000, $10,000 to make it up to you. And then we`ll start to find out what really happened that night.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. And of course, we have to tell Royal Caribbean`s side of the story. They have done absolutely nothing wrong. They`ve cooperated fully with the investigation. And they continue to cooperate fully, they say, with the FBI because this is an open investigation. It is not appropriate, they say, for us to comment on any specifics of the case.
Let`s hear now from one of those three young men who says he helped escort George back to the room that night because George was intoxicated.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: George and Jenny weren`t talking very -- George and Jenny...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All night, I`m asking?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, the trip? Oh, yes. Yes. Very happy. Very happy. they were on their honeymoon (INAUDIBLE)
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was happy when we left him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, Tim Green, how does the new information you`ve constructed affect the window of opportunity for foul play? We had heard reports that you were reporting that, at one point, at approximately 5:00 AM, the bride was allegedly brought back into the room, but there was no George there?
GREEN: That`s correct. That`s what this crew member told us, that he spoke with one of the security people, who said they found Jennifer in one of the hallways at 5:00 AM, brought her back to the room, George was not there. So he disappeared somewhere between 3:30 and 5:00.
I got to say also that, regarding the FBI, they`ve been on this case for quite a long time now. And the disconcerting thing is that we continue to turn up witnesses. We have people contacting "A Current Affair" either by phone or by e-mail who were on the ship, some of them law enforcement officers frustrated at the fact that no one asked them any questions, including Clete Hyman (ph), who was in the cabin next door.
Now, let me say -- I do want to say this because this is very important. The gentleman who was in the cabin next door to the Smiths, not Clete Hyman but the other gentleman who our witness is reporting, you know, told him what happened that night, an African-American man in that cabin -- the FBI very well may have this guy already. They may have spoken to this witness. They may have themselves a gangbuster case that they`re just getting ready to spring on whoever they think killed George Smith. So I hope that`s the case.
The disconcerting thing is "A Current Affair" is finding witnesses all over the country, people who took photos, people who heard screams, people who heard fighting and noises, who hadn`t been contacted by the FBI until they appeared on "A Current Affair."
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And meanwhile, Tim, we`re hearing this report that Jennifer is brought back to her room and she`s intoxicated. And of course, she`s possibly in mourning right now. I mean, how traumatic is this for her?
And let`s go Caryn Stark, psychotherapist. What is she going through? I mean, the trauma of probably losing your new husband on this cruise ship, then coming home, and then she`s got to deal with all this rumor, innuendo and speculation and everybody talking about her private moments. Let`s face it, we`ve all done things in our lives where we wake up the next morning and go, Ouch! Why did I do that? but normally, the world isn`t watching.
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: It`s a triple trauma -- you`re absolutely right, Jane, because if you think about it, number one, she doesn`t remember what was -- what happened that night. She was so inebriated that she has no memory. And she`s going through the loss of her husband, a newlywed who`s going through the loss. And then you have all this speculation and people talking about her and wondering what really happened. And so she can`t even grieve or be anxious about him because everything else is happening.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And we can`t stress enough she`s not a suspect. She`s cooperating with authorities. She`s in seclusion. She`s probably really sad and missing somebody that she loved very much.
But I have to ask you about this blackout issue. I mean, you`re saying that she doesn`t -- or they have reported she didn`t remember anything. Is that how blackouts work, or do you remember fragments? And can the memory return if you`re prodded? I mean, we`ve all said, Oh, you know what? I remember now what happened.
STARK: You can absolutely remember if you`re prodded. But the truth of the matter is, people do forget. You`ve had blackouts, and they take all kinds of forms. Sometimes you remember nothing about the evening, and sometimes you remember bits and pieces. But have you ever been with someone, Jane, who will say to you, What did I say last night? And how terrible was it?
(LAUGHTER)
STARK: And that`s the kind of thing that could happen.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, we all have, I think, a lot of compassion for what she`s going through right now.
STARK: Absolutely.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to go to Vito Colucci, he`s the private investigator who is a former detective, and ask him about the other evidence that`s being reported. And again, CNN cannot independently confirm it, but there have been reports of blood inside the cabin, specifically on a towel and on the bed. What would that indicate, Vito, in terms of what went down that night, if you have blood inside the cabin and then on the outside? Does that lean more towards foul play or toward an accident?
VITO COLUCCI, PRIVATE DETECTIVE: No, I would say that`s definitely more towards foul play here. And I think a lot of this stuff that Tim has uncovered and -- I do feel the FBI does know a lot of this stuff, too. So I feel that -- I got a feeling any day, you`re going to hear some good things on that.
You got to remember something, Jane. They`ve jumped in at a time where they didn`t have an opportunity initially to see these possible suspects, see any large amounts of money on them, see any traces of blood, do a full body examination, look for bruises, scars, nail scrapings. Mr. Smith was a very big man.
And as far as the cabin, you`ve got people now in those cabins every day now, and there was people -- hundreds of people in those cabins well before this. So looking for the blood, using the luminol and everything is fine and it could break the case, but you know, could also comprise it, too, if there`s other blood from people.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, Vito. And stay there because when we come back, I do want to ask you about the handprint. I`ve had a lot of thoughts about what does that handprint on the side of the ship mean? And could it be very significant?
But first, I want to go to Joe Lawless, defense attorney. Can you give us a big picture here? I mean, we`re getting all this information floating in, and we`re trying to coordinate it with a timeline and a window of opportunity. What does it all say?
JOE LAWLESS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, The first problem that you have in a case like this is you have a major criminal investigation being conducted by "A Current Affair." What they report on television, what the witnesses tell them, isn`t going to be as accurate as an investigation conducted by the FBI. So really, what we`re dealing with here is a mish- mash of various public statements.
I got to disagree with what Mr. Horowitz said about offering rewards to the crew members. If you offer rewards to people, all of a sudden, memories are going to change, things are going to get better. You`re going to have even more confusion. So what`s going on right now is just a massive obliteration of facts in the media, and we don`t know what the FBI has.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And what`s so weird about it is that some of the witnesses were intoxicated themselves that night, so that clouds it even more, doesn`t it?
LAWLESS: Yes, that makes it difficult for the FBI. And I`m not the greatest fan of the FBI, but for them to come in in a situation where the witnesses have all disembarked from the ship, where the crime scene has been contaminated, where you now have varying versions of various crimes being reported -- this is a very difficult crime to get a handle on. About all you can really say with any certainty, Jane, is I think foul play is definitely what happened here. Beyond that, it`s still anybody`s guess.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Absolutely. And we`re all wondering.
As we continue: What happened that night? Voices, a thud, arguments - - can we piece it all together? It`s a tragic mystery, two families waiting desperately for answers. We`re going to try to find some right now. Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m just kind of choked up because I`ve known him for so long. And it`s sad.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Carolyn Antonic (ph) is a long-time family friend. Her hardware store is located next to the Smiths` liquor store on Cos Cob (ph), where she says George, Jr., was being groomed to take over the business.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They wanted the son to run the store. I mean, that was going to be his future.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: George Allen Smith and Jennifer Hagel seemed to own the future.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: George just had a -- I guess you would say a charisma or a personality, a quality about him that -- you know, that stuck out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jen Hagel was the type of -- she was the type of girl that everyone loved.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They had everything -- looks, love, and a long life together ahead of them.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was adorable, tall and very good looking, and friendly.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was looking forward to, you know, a happy life being married to George.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, filling in for Nancy Grace. What happened to George Smith? That`s what we`re all wondering.
And let`s go back now to Tim green of "A Current Affair." He`s been on top of this story from the very beginning. Tim, so many conflicting reports, so many stories surfacing about what was happening in the casino earlier that evening. Can you straighten it out for us?
GREEN: Well, it`s pretty clear. We`ve had numerous witnesses that have corroborated that these two were both intoxicated, heavily, either drugged or drinking, and they had a spat where she ended up kicking him. And then she left the casino alone. By almost all accounts except for one, she left the casino alone, and then he continued drinking with these young men, and then they all left together.
I want to just say this, Jane, about the investigation itself. And I -- I`m not pretending to know police work. I limit that to suspense novels. But every -- I mean, Vito will tell you, an investigation of this kind would start where you look around that cabin. You case the neighborhood. You talk to the people next door, the people above, the people below. What did you see? What did you hear?
And in fact, if the FBI talked to this witness that our witnesses is talking about, who was in the cabin next door and he saw these guys in the hallway, wouldn`t you think that the FBI would descend on whoever these people are and immediately start to question them, try to split them off and get them, you know, to talk against each other? Because the physical evidence in this situation is going to be so contaminated because of all of the traffic that Vito was talking about, don`t you need some kind of testimony from someone? So don`t you have to find these guys and immediately splinter them?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I have to agree with you, Tim. And I think a lot of times, the news media operates on breaking-news speed, and sometimes investigators don`t operate at that speed. Do you think they`re a little bit behind the ball on this?
GREEN: I do. I mean, I have to say, unless, like I said, they`ve got witnesses that we haven`t found. But it`s just so strange that when we talk to people who were in the cabins that are above and below and beside, that heard things, and the FBI hadn`t contacted them, you say to yourself, How could that happen? We don`t have the cabin list. We don`t have the rooming list that they, I know, have from the cruise ship.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tim, I have to jump in. They haven`t even told us if the blood on the side of the ship is that of George Smith. Is that true?
GREEN: That`s right. There`s no comment from the FBI.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: They haven`t told us if the blood that we`ve all been looking at since July whatever, because we didn`t see the photo on July 5 - - but for weeks now, the whole world`s been looking at that photo, and they haven`t told us that`s George Smith`s blood or not. I mean, that`s something that the public`s entitled to, don`t you think?
GREEN: I think so. I do. I think they`re saying nothing. Like I said, I hope they`ve got this huge case that they`re just going to roll out and come up with some arrests and see some justice served.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I hope you`re right. I absolutely agree. I don`t want to be running this one, either. Thank you, Tim.
Tonight, to "Trial Tracking." We need your help. Two pregnant missing women. Latoyia Figueroa, mother of a beautiful 7-year-old girl and 5 months pregnant, still missing from Philadelphia. Police have no leads on Latoyia`s whereabouts. Stephen Pouche, father of Latoyia`s baby and the last person known to have seen her, has not been searching for her, but he denies any involvement in her disappearance, and Pouche is not a suspect.
Police in Missouri are equally baffled by the mysterious disappearance of another pregnant mother. Amanda Jones, 26 years old and 9 months pregnant, vanished Sunday from Hillsboro Civic Center. Police found her car. They did not recover any clues that could help locate this missing mom.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In the early morning hours of July 5, people report hearing arguments, banging and loud voices coming from the Smiths` cabin, followed by a horrific thud which awakens other passengers. The next day, a large blood stain was seen on the metal awning under the Smiths` cabin. Had any of these young men been in the room? Do they know what went on? Answers were hard to come by.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, filling in for Nancy Grace. We`re talking about the mysterious disappearance of George Smith. You just heard word of that blood stain on the side of the ship. There was also reportedly a handprint.
Let`s go to Vito Colucci now of Colucci Investigations, a private investigator, about the possible significance of that handprint. When you think about it, a handprint, right, a handprint would indicate somebody conscious, trying to maybe hang on, or is that just a lay person saying -- you know, I`m trying to make up a story here.
COLUCCI: Well, it`s a lay person saying it, but that could possibly be what it is, Jane. And I`m sure, at this point -- you know, I just want to say something. We`re talking a lot about the FBI tonight. I deal with them on a regular basis with a lot of my cases, especially the New Haven office here in Connecticut. And you know, they`ve chosen not to say anything on this case. They don`t have to say anything, OK? My only problem, though, with that is, hopefully, something is solved in the next couple of weeks because I hate to see this case die out. Beth Holloway has been a master of keeping this -- her case active every day. So I hope that something really breaks in this case in the next two weeks.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: They don`t have to say anything, but a lot of times, these cases do get solved if there`s information out there. Is that not true?
Caryn Stark, a lot of times, when people hear things, there could be something that somebody was on that ship, 2,300 passengers, they hear something being reported by the FBI and it clicks something in their brain and they report something back to them. Isn`t information always better?
STARK: It`s always better. It makes all the difference in the world. And what you`re talking about with things clicking on in people`s minds, that really happens, Jane. It`s like there`s repressed memories. People do have some memories that don`t come to the surface and get triggered. And certainly, if you`re searching your mind, you`ll come up with things.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Absolutely.
STARK: Much better.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I mean, look at that case with the Tennessee couple, and they escape and the cab driver saw the reports and said, Boom, I`m the one who took them, called the cops, they got caught.
We at NANCY GRACE want very much to help, in our way, solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Tonight, take a look at Aretha Johnson Moore. Aretha, 36 years old and the mother of six children, shot multiple times August 1999, her body found on the street in Centerville, Illinois. If you have any information at all on Aretha Johnson Moore, please call the Carole Sund Carrington Foundation toll-free, 1-888-813-8389. Please help us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SOPHIA CHOI, CNN HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR: Hello, I`m Sophia Choi with your "Headline Prime Newsbreak."
A virus affecting systems running Microsoft 2000 is disabling computers across the country. Systems at CNN, ABC News, and on Capitol Hill are being affected. Microsoft is calling the worm a low-impact virus. A patch to counter it can be downloaded from Microsoft`s web site.
In California, a suspect has given up to police after a dramatic freeway standoff. Police fired gas canisters into the driver`s window after chasing the vehicle. The man did not come out of the car for almost 20 minutes. He was then taken into custody without further incident.
And just hours after the deadline for the evacuation of Israeli settlers from Gaza, as many as half have pulled out peacefully. And settlers still in Gaza will be removed by force. Israel plans to withdraw from 21 communities in Gaza and four in the West Bank.
That`s the news for now. I`m Sophia Choi. Back to NANCY GRACE.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, MOTHER OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY: The first time that I began to realize there was a possibility that Natalee may not be alive was on June 10th. And I think that`s when the boys began to, as they called, the finger-pointing. And, you know, that`s a sure sign that they all have been involved in this, to me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell filling in for Nancy Grace.
From the Mediterranean to the Caribbean, another case that continues to captivate the country tonight. We`re talking about Natalee Holloway`s disappearance in Aruba.
And tonight, in Aruba, managing director and editor of "Diario," Jossy Mansur. And in Houston, Texas, Natalee Holloway`s uncle, Paul Reynolds.
Paul, first of all, thank you very much for joining us. And I have to ask you, Paul, how are you holding up? How is Natalee`s family holding up? And how are you keeping your spirits up?
PAUL REYNOLDS, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S UNCLE: Well, we`re doing OK. You know, my mother, our mother was visiting Beth this week in Aruba. And, you know, I`m really glad that they got to spend some time together.
You know, our mother hasn`t seen Beth since Natalee was missing. And so we`re real happy about that opportunity. And we`re continuing to receive just tons of support from all over the country, and, you know, that`s what keeps us going along with our faith.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And I know that you`ve also brought in a new search team to help look for Natalee. Tell us about that.
REYNOLDS: You know, we welcome everyone that wants to come to the island to help out. There was a search individual from Massachusetts and an associate of his that came in from Florida. You know, we`re appreciative of their efforts.
But we want to make a special mention of all of the efforts that Texas EquuSearch made. You know, those guys spent four weeks on the island. They had 70 people in there. I spent a week myself working with them personally.
You know, this is a great group of dedicated professionals that have volunteered to leave their homes, and their families, and their jobs, and come down there and, you know, put forth this effort. And they along with the hundreds and almost thousands of others have been just a great asset to our family and the search.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I hate to bring this up, because it could be a little bit of a distraction from the investigation, but I have to, because it is being talked about tonight. There is some sort of reported spat between the first search team and the second one.
Why is that? What do you know about it?
REYNOLDS: You know, I can`t really explain that. All I can really let you know is Texas EquuSearch did a great job. You know, I know Tim Miller. I spent a lot of time with him. I`ve met a lot of the search guys. Some of them go to the church that I go to.
Great individuals. I know they did a good job. And, you know, I`m hoping the new people that are there -- I`m hoping they do just as good a job.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Have they gotten into that dump? Because we talked to them yesterday, and they said they want to get back into that dump to search it again. Do you know if they have?
REYNOLDS: I`m not sure if they`ve gotten back in there. I know there was some sort of fire in the landfill area. You know, it`s still suspicious. And we hope they can get back in there and continue the search.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, let`s check in now with Jossy Mansur, managing director and editor of "Diario."
What can you tell us about the dump? I mean, we here in the United States are hearing about this landfill that they`re searching over and over again. But we can`t get a picture of how big it is or whether they searched half of it or three-quarters of it. What can you tell us about that, Jossy?
JOSSY MANSUR, EDITOR, "DIARIO": Well, the landfill is a very large area. Most of the garbage collected on the island is dumped there. It`s worked over with machines. I mean, you have different sections there.
The garbage bags and everything, as it`s thrown there, is being moved around quite a bit. So it makes that more difficult, because when you dig in one place, maybe the next day they will throw some other garbage bins on it. So it makes it very difficult.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And coast-to-coast canine search was on this program last night and was saying, "Well, we went to get back in there. We at first got a hard time, but now we`re going to get back in there."
Why is it so significant? Why is the landfill so important to search?
MANSUR: The landfill is important to search because there is a witness that came forward that claims that a body was buried there. And everyone wants this body found, if it`s true what he says. He`s been there constantly, the witness. He`s helped in the searches. He`s indicated the place where he saw this.
But it has become very deep since the day that he saw it. And it takes a lot of effort and a lot of machinery to get a job done in a quick way in very few days.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And just have to ask you quickly, because we heard so much about the gardener and his sworn statement, has this man who saw this alleged body being dumped in the landfill also given a sworn statement or not?
MANSUR: I don`t know, but he did give a statement to the police. The police have interviewed him on different occasions. It`s quite different from the gardener. The gardener is a witness to something else.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. Well, listen, the big story out of this case is the forearm that was discovered off the coast of Venezuela. And it`s such a really distasteful subject. It`s so gruesome, it really is sort of unpleasant even to bring up. But we have to.
What`s the very latest on that? I know that you`d reported in your paper that they have discovered this forearm. They took it for testing. Do we have any results?
MANSUR: No, we don`t have any results yet. But many people say it`s very difficult. People who know the currents of the ocean that, in a 20- mile distance, it`s very difficult for that to happen, unless a body was taken out to sea in a boat and dumped in the middle or very close to that coast.
I happen to agree with that. Regardless of whether it has any bearing on this case or not, it has to be looked into, it has to be examined so that we can discard one more thing from the investigation.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And Jossy, I know this is another gruesome question, but we have to ask it: Was there any flesh on the arm?
MANSUR: No, none whatsoever. It was just bones from the elbow down to the wrist. All the fingers were there. And it`s that kind of a bone.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And I had heard that somebody said that anything that is dumped in the ocean in those parts of the world end up in Panama, which is far from Venezuela. So what`s the likelihood of this being connected to this case? Or is this just another random gruesome bit of speculation?
MANSUR: No, no, it is not, because it depends where something is thrown in the ocean. If you throw it to the west of the coast of Aruba, naturally, it will go with the big currents to Panama or any coast in Central America.
But if you take the route to the south, towards Venezuela -- Venezuela is 15 nautical miles away from us and the nearest point -- if you take some body or some other thing in a boat halfway between these two islands, it will end up on the Venezuelan coast or the next coast, that there`s the Colombian coast.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, thank you very much for that, Jossy.
Meantime, on Aruba, there`s a whole controversy over whether or not Joran Van Der Sloot should continue to be questioned. His defense attorneys don`t want him to.
Now, Ellie, they didn`t get a ruling on that, right?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And when did they last talk to him?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I believe the last time he was questioned was Thursday.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Thursday?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thursday of last week.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday -- we`re talking six days.
Caryn Stark, six days. What does that do to somebody who`s sitting behind bars? Do they get to make another story? Do they get to strategize some more, or do they just sit there? And he apparently did get into a fight behind bars.
STARK: Well, I wouldn`t be surprised because he`s had a history of getting in trouble before this, Jane. I would suspect that, sitting there behind bars, he`ll change his story. He`s done it so many times that he`s rethinking what to say next.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Mary Fulginiti, former prosecutor, what are your thoughts on this questioning of Joran Van Der Sloot? They were going to try a new strategy, but still haven`t tried it. This is dragging on, but the clock is ticking to September 4th, when they have to release him if they don`t get new evidence.
FULGINITI: No, you`re absolutely right. I think what`s most unusual, because it`s very atypical to what we`re used to in the United States here, when a suspect, in particular somebody who`s being detained, has a lawyer, it`s almost impossible, obviously, for that individual to be questioned without the lawyer present and acquiescing to it.
Here in Aruba, it`s very different. They`ve had multiple interrogations of Joran Van Der Sloot before and after he retained a lawyer. And even afterward, it was just a week or two ago that they had to go to the court and ask the court to make sure that they didn`t interrogate him without a lawyer present.
So this is a very unusual scenario, period. But I agree with Caryn. I mean, if he is lying, liars typical -- typically, excuse me -- get tripped up in their own lies. They can`t tell the truth, and they can`t tell a story straight.
So the more times they do interrogate him and the more inconsistencies they find, the more it will look like he`s obviously trying to hide or cover something up.
But, with regard to cracking him at this point, I just don`t see that happening. I really don`t. I think what they`re trying to do is figure out really what happened to Natalee here and hopefully some of the other breaks in this case and leads that have come forward will help, you know, cement one way or another certain information or evidence that Joran Van Der Sloot has supplied to them.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, stay right there.
When we come back, we`re going to go deep into the time line. When could this have happened? We know they left the bar, Carlos and Charlie`s, about 1:00. So what happened then? Let`s try to lay it out. Stay with us. We`re going to have some in-depth analysis.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TWITTY: Paulus Van Der Sloot stated that he picked them up at 4:00 a.m. on May 30th. Them, we don`t know who "they" were. But then, even as far as into June 16th and June 17th, Mr. Van Der Sloot was still stating this 4:00 a.m. pickup.
Only until around -- maybe it was when he was picked up or arrested, that he changed it to 11:00 p.m. that I had knowledge of. So there`s another critical element that has been -- that he`s lied about.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVE HOLLOWAY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S FATHER: We`ve heard a lot of different rumors. I mean, when we got on the island, you know, we had a lot of information that, you know, she was here or there or whatever. And all those turned out to be false.
But, you know, we still hold on to the thread that maybe she`s off somewhere. That`s my hope. But the police investigation has always come back and indicated that they`re looking into this as a murder case. But, as a father and a parent, you still hold on to a possible miracle.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell filling in for Nancy Grace, trying to connect the dots in Natalee Holloway`s disappearance. And a lot of it comes down to the time line, what happened when on the night she disappeared.
Let`s look in depth into that. Let`s go back to Jossy Mansur, editor of "Diario." He knows more about this case than just about anybody. And, Jossy, we`re going to throw up one of the detailed maps of Aruba and kind of the area where a lot of this stuff happened.
We know that Natalee, the Deepak brothers, Deepak and Satish Kalpoe, and Joran Van Der Sloot left Carlos and Charlie`s at about 1:00. And then at 3:00 a.m. in the morning, there`s an instant message from Deepak`s computer to a friend in the United States. So that`s two hours.
What kind of drive time are we talking about between Carlos and Charlie`s, and the beach area, and then back to Kalpoes` house? So try to lay it out for us.
MANSUR: You know, as I understand it, they left Carlos and Charlie`s between 1:00 and 1:25. It`s a 25 minute to 30 minute drive from Carlos and Charlie`s to the north of the Marriott hotel. So that would put them there at about 2:00.
This, Joran himself in a statement to these four policemen, confirms that he was on the beach with Natalee at 2:00 a.m. Then we have the witness that says that he saw the car parked by the racquet club with the three suspects inside it between 2:30 and 3:00. This is the time line...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, and while you`re doing that, let`s throw up that map one more time while you`re talking, because you said the racquet club, all right? And you see that it`s right near where the pond is that they dredged out. There`s the racquet club.
And you`re saying that`s when the witness saw the three young men, or at least two of the three, in Deepak Kalpoe`s car at about 2:30 a.m. And then the 3:00 a.m. instant message. How long does it take to get from the racquet club back to Deepak Kalpoe`s house?
MANSUR: Not more than 30 minutes, definitely not.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So that would theoretically fit into that time line?
MANSUR: It would theoretically fit in, yes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, but how do you account for the time that could be spent to engage in foul play and then dispose of evidence? That`s what I think is so confusing and difficult about this case.
Let`s go to Mary Fulginiti, former prosecutor. Your thoughts on that?
FULGINITI: Well, I think we`re assuming here that they disposed of everything conclusively at that point in time, if -- this is all theoretical, obviously. I mean, in theory, or hypothetically, it could have been done a day or two later.
So, you know, we don`t know exactly what went on during that time frame. But what we do know, from all of these new witnesses that are coming forward, especially the gardener, if his testimony is true, this punches some pretty big holes in not only Joran`s story, but also the Kalpoe brothers, because all three of them have stated -- at least Joran said he was the last to be -- or he left her on the beach unharmed.
And the Kalpoe brothers claim to have dropped Joran off with her at the beach and then went home. And now there is another witness stating that he actually saw all three of them together at a time that all of them should have either been on their way home or at home separately. It certainly smells and certainly suggests that somebody is lying, and it adds more suspicion here to the plot.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. We have to mention that we have repeatedly invited representatives from these three families on, and they have declined. We have asked them. And we would love to hear their side of the story at any time.
Let`s go to Joe Lawless, defense attorney. What do you make of the fact that apparently they looked at the Kalpoes` car and it wasn`t scuffed up, as it would be, let`s say, if you were driving over some rough terrain trying it get somewhere where you could dispose of something?
LAWLESS: Jane, when you hear the time line that`s been laid out by everyone -- and this is something that I`ve really felt all along -- you`ve got three 18-year-old kids here who are relatively unsophisticated in criminal activity.
The mob has a hard time disposing of a body after a professional hit and putting it somewhere where it can`t be found. We`ve heard about 70 people being down there for four weeks looking for a body. I think this pretty strongly supports the conclusion that there was someone other than these three boys involved in destroying evidence in this case.
And I think you have to really look strongly at the parents. This is just something that could not have happened in the time frame that we have, if there was foul play, if Natalee was murdered. I think the body has been moved at least once, if not twice. And I think there was someone involved in it other than these three boys.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Defense attorney Daniel Horowitz, you`re a defense attorney. Would you make that argument?
HOROWITZ: Well, Jane, that`s the argument the defense has to make. But it`s wrong in this case.
You know, you just look at simple, basic facts. An American young woman does not leave a bar at 1:00 in the morning with three young men. She knows it`s not safe.
They take her to the beach. That much we seem to have agreement on. And then she`s gone.
As far as I`m concerned, she was killed on the beach, they took her somewhere where she was thrown in the ocean. It`s not difficult. It`s not complicated. We don`t need any big conspiracies. We know these young men did it. But I fear that we`re not able to prove it.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, I got to jump in here. We don`t know that these young men did it. I mean, all of this is speculation.
HOROWITZ: I feel we did.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Nobody`s been charged. These are your theories. And I guess people are entitled to theories, but they`re not facts. And I have to stress that.
HOROWITZ: Well, I feel strongly about -- I`ll tell you why. If they hadn`t lied about those two security guards and let those two security guards who had nothing to do with this sit in jail day after day, I would have said maybe there`s some reasonable options other than that they`re guilty.
But, Jane, once that happened, my mind went 100 percent guilty. Sure, we have to give them their right to speak. I disagree.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Daniel, they`re guilty about lying about that, OK? But that`s not the same thing as being a murderer. So we can say that`s your theory, and we have to give the other side.
To tonight`s "All-Points Bulletin." FBI and law enforcement across the country on the lookout for Marcia Cruz Garcia, wanted for alleged accessory to murder. FBI says Garcia helped to hide and transport her brother-in-law, who is wanted in connection with three murders in Idaho.
Garcia, 43, 5`2", 218 pounds, brown hair, brown eyes. If you have any information on Marcia Cruz Garcia, call the FBI, 858-565-1255.
Local news next for some of you, but we will be right back. And remember, live coverage of the BTK killer`s sentencing 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern on Court TV`s "Closing Arguments." Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, MOTHER OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY: I`ve known as early as probably July the 10th that the beach trip was falling all apart. I mean, holes have been made in that, you know, that last scenario where Deepak and Satish say they last left and saw Natalee and Joran. I mean, holes have been in that since as early as July 10th, even earlier than that, because July 1st, right before Satish and Deepak Kalpoe were released.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell filling in for Nancy Grace. New leads and new developments in Natalee Holloway`s disappearance, and a lot of it boils down to evidence, specifically DNA.
Ellie, you`ve been tracking this carefully. And it`s so complicated. Tell us, they took Joran`s DNA but then they couldn`t use it?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right. A judge ruled that they hadn`t followed proper procedure and there wasn`t probable cause to take Joran`s DNA. So now the prosecutors have to re-file the request if they want another DNA sample from him.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: That seems like such red tape.
Jossy Mansur, managing director of "Diario," what`s the latest? Have the prosecutors tried to get the DNA sample again so they can test it, for example, against the belt that they found near the lighthouse? Wouldn`t that help those people who were searching the lighthouse area to know whether they`re wasting their time or not?
MANSUR: Well, they can ask for it, of course. It`s their right to do so. They`re the ones that have to prosecute. But whether they will do it or not, I don`t know.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Mary Fulginiti, former prosecutor, why the red tape? Why the hold up? I mean, you would think DNA would be the most crucial thing to have to solve this mystery.
FULGINITI: You know, definitely DNA can help in many regards. But in Aruba, clearly, they`ve got procedures that are in place that need to be complied with in order for certain tests to be taken.
And although I don`t know the particular reasons why the judge denied it, except for what was just reported, but it appears that the prosecution, if they can gather a little bit more information and present an application to the court may be fortunate enough to get the court to rule in their favor.
But clearly, there`s some procedures that are unique to Aruba, with regard to obtaining DNA evidence from somebody that`s held in custody as a suspect.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Just a couple of seconds. Joe Lawless, wouldn`t it be good to have that DNA to solve this case?
LAWLESS: It would be good if there was a judge paying attention to everything that`s being said publicly about this. I don`t see any reason why a judge would deny this kind of an application, except for the fact that maybe a fellow judge`s son is in the dock.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, let`s see what happens. Thanks to everyone, all our guests on the show tonight for their insights.
And thanks to all of you at home for keeping track of all of these very important cases right along with us. Coming up, headlines from around the world. "LARRY KING" on CNN. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, filling in for Nancy Grace. I hope to see you right here tomorrow, 8:00 sharp Eastern.
Until then, have a great night.
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