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The Situation Room
Israeli Withdrawal; Venezuelan Crash; Travelers Delayed by Children's Names on No-Fly Lists; One Woman's Protest; Computer Virus Runs Amuck
Aired August 16, 2005 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: It's 5:00 p.m. here in Washington and you're in THE SITUATION ROOM, where news and information from around the world arrive in one place simultaneously.
Behind me, we're getting these feeds coming in -- Channel 2, Israeli television. Caracol from Venezuela. Bad plane crash there. CNN Plus in Spain. We're watching in Britain, ITV. We're watching lots of other feeds coming in.
Happening right now. It's midnight in Gaza. It's the deadline for Jewish settlers to voluntarily leave. The deadline has now come and gone. But what happens next? We'll take you live to Gaza.
It's 5:00 p.m. in Venezuela, where a plane disaster today has killed everyone on board. The second such crash in three days, raising some new safety concerns.
And it's 5:00 p.m. here in Washington, where the government's no- fly list has hit a glitch. Babies. Yes, babies. Tiny little babies are being denied boarding because their names are on some sort of list.
I'm Wolf Blitzer. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
We're going to show you live pictures as we begin a fast-moving story out of Gaza. Israeli settlers have reached the point of no return. At least half already pulled out peacefully. But the time is up for those remaining behind, beginning this hour, settlers and sympathizers still in Gaza will be removed by force.
CNN's Guy Raz joining us live from the Neveh Dekalim settlement. He's got more on this fast-moving story. Guy?
GUY RAZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, it's just past midnight here and the period of voluntary evacuation in the Gaza settlements has come to an end. Now begins the point at which the Israeli army will forcibly remove the remaining citizens from this strip of land it first occupied in 1967, effectively bringing an end to the Israeli presence here in Gaza after 38 years.
Now, several hours ago, thousands of Israeli soldiers and police made their way into the Gaza settlements. They began by moving house to house, going door to door and calling on the remaining residents to leave voluntarily.
Now, here in this settlement in Neveh Dekalim, we expect the army to remain here overnight, and all indications would suggest this settlement and six or seven others in Gaza will be the first to be evacuated beginning tomorrow.
Now, Neveh Dekalim, this settlement is the largest of the 21 Jewish settlements in Gaza, the most populous, also perhaps the most recalcitrant. And many of the people we have spoken to here in this settlement say they are determined to resist this evacuation.
Wolf?
BLITZER: Guy, so I assume they're going to wait 'til daylight comes out in order to actually go in and start removing the settlers. Is that right?
RAZ: That's the assumption that we're working under. We are expecting the military to begin this large scale operation, the largest peacetime military operation in Israeli military history. That is expected to begin sometime in the morning -- so probably six, seven, maybe eight hours from now. Now the entire process will take three weeks to clear up all 21 settlements in Gaza, four in the northern West Bank. And the Israeli army will remain in these settlements for another month and clear the area. At that point, this area will be handed over to Palestinian control.
Wolf?
BLITZER: And many of those structures will be bulldozed according to an agreement the Israelis made with the Palestinians. Guy Raz reporting for us. We'll be staying in close touch. Stay tuned to CNN for complete coverage of all these dramatic hours in Gaza.
Israel's coalition government has thrown its weight behind the Gaza pullout and we've heard from Palestinian officials applauding Israel's move. But the former Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, quit the current government in protest over the withdrawal. I spoke to him today and asked him today if he's feeling isolated.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: It's not just the Palestinian Authority, it's not just Nassar al-Kidwa or Shimon Peres or Ariel Sharon. It's the president of the United States, George W. Bush, who in Israel is widely seen as a great friend of Israel. He said this on Israel television only the other day. Listen to this.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The disengagement is, I think, a part of making Israel more secure and peaceful. I agree with the prime minister.
BLITZER: If you were prime minister, would you go to battle, would you go to war against the Bush administration on this issue?
BINYAMIN NETANYAHU, FORMER ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: The Bush administration did not force this withdrawal. This was an entirely an internal Israeli initiative. I don't think the president really wants to get involved in this internal debate. I have to say ...
BLITZER: He does say this is an important step forward and he wholly supports what Israel is doing.
NETANYAHU: Yes. Yes, he's saying that. And I expect that's what the president of the United States would say when Israel undertakes such a risk on itself.
He's not going to be -- I think this is understandable in diplomatic terms. The president has initiated a very powerful war on terror in which he gives terror no ground literally and figuratively. I think he's to be commended for it.
In many ways I believe that this is the policy we should be pursuing vis-a-vis the Palestinian terrorists as well because what you'll see here, now, remember, I was not very popular and I wasn't particularly correct -- politically correct, I should say, in 1993 and '94 and '95 when I warned against the consequences of the Oslo Accords. I said this would not lead to peace, it would lead to terror.
I really wasn't politically correct, except I happened to be correct. And that's exactly what happened then.
I think it's not politically fashionable right now to say what I'm saying. But you're going to have in Gaza an inviolable domain. Abu Mazen's government doesn't lift a finger. It doesn't and it won't. And what our security chiefs are telling us, including the intelligence chief today in the Knesset, is this is going to be become a base of terror. I say it will attract Hezbollah, al Qaeda, terrorists from Iraq, terrorists from Afghanistan and Pakistan. They will flow into Gaza as they had once flowed into Lebanon when there was no government there. And they will operate from there not only against Israeli targets, but against U.S. targets and elsewhere.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: While Benjamin Netanyahu says he shares the concerns of the settlers, he also stresses -- and I'm quoting now -- "they must leave peacefully." In our interview he says there's no place for violence and the settlers he insists should simply walk out.
Other news we're following, for the second time in three days, a passenger plane has crashed killing everyone on board. This time it's in Venezuela.
CNN's Karl Penhaul is in neighboring Colombia, and he has the latest.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Minutes before the crash, aviation authorities say the pilot radioed the control tower saying had he had last power in one engine and that the other was failing, as well. Now, wreckage of the airliner is spread across forest-covered mountains in western Venezuela. Rescue workers say all 160 people aboard died in the MD-82 airliner that likely plummeted from 33,000 feet. Venezuela authorities say 150 rescuers are working to salvage the remains of the downed airliner and recover the dead.
GEN CASTOR PEREZ LEAL, VENEZUELAN NATIONAL GUARD (through translator): The area is difficult to access. It is mountainous but it is not a high area. It looks like the impact was a total destruction. There's no fire in the area. We regret this type of accident because the loss of life is very high.
PENHAUL: It was a charter flight from Panama to Martinique. A spokeswoman for the Colombian based West Caribbean Airways says most of the passengers were tourists returning home to Martinique from Central America. The island is a French territory.
The French government was quick to send condolences.
DOMINIQUE DE VILLEPIN, FRENCH PRIME MINISTER: In this tragic moment, our first thoughts go to the victims and their families. I expressed to them a sign of support from all the nations and my deepest sympathy.
PENHAUL: All eight crew members were Colombian. Their families gathered at Bogota Airport.
ERICA BELTRAN, WIFE OF VICTIM (through translator}: They say there are no survivors. All those aboard have died.
PENHAUL: This particular MD-82 aircraft had been grounded for four days in July. A West Caribbean Airways spokeswoman told CNN there was no suggestion then of mechanical problems.
A much smaller West Caribbean airplane crashed in March this year, killing eight of the 14 people aboard on the Colombian island of Providence. Initial reports blamed that accident on mechanical failure.
Karl Penhaul, CNN, Bogota, Colombia.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: The Venezuela crash is only the latest involving aircraft from smaller carriers operating out of less developed nations. Are the flight standards any different?
For some answers, let's turn to our Brian Todd. He's here in THE SITUATION ROOM. Brian?
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And Wolf, we've been looking into maintenance and training standards in developing countries as compared to the U.S., Europe and elsewhere, and asking several aviation experts is this a pattern reflective of a wider problem for air travelers?
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) TODD (voice-over): A string of deadly crashes, reports of possible mechanical failures. Questions raised over safety standards at small airlines in developing countries.
PETER GOELZ, FORMER NTSB MANAGING DIRECTOR: The question really on the low cost carriers that are flying regional routes overseas is, is that level of oversight available in their countries? And oftentimes, it's not.
TODD: But Peter Goelz and other experts with inside knowledge of aviation safety say it's unfair to broadly criticize small airlines from developing countries for their standards.
For their part, officials at Helios Airways based in Cyprus say that before Sunday's crash in Greece that killed 121 people.
ANDREAS DRAKOU, CHAIRMAN, HELIOS AIRWAYS (through translator): The plane observed all necessary maintenance and checks in line with its national requirements -- those of the construction (ph) firm and Cypriot and civil aviation requirements.
TODD: Helios officials also say the plane met European safety standards, which according to current and former U.S. aviation officials we spoke to, are very high -- on par with American specs. It's not clear what caused that airliner to go down.
We couldn't reach officials with West Caribbean Airways for specific comment on maintenance on the MD-82 plane that crashed in Venezuela or the training of its pilots. West Caribbean is based in Colombia, a nation which has the highest rating the FAA can give to a country for maintenance, training and standards.
But airlines only have to meet stringent FAA standards if they fly into the United States. Otherwise, oversight of safety standards is left up to the civil aviation authority of the country in question. And experts say with smaller carriers in developing countries, several factors can get in the way of safety.
GOELZ: Is there undue pressure to make schedules? Is the maintenance up to snuff? Is the oversight from the aviation authorities comparable to what you get in the United States? And there's a real question about that.
TODD: According to one former NTSB board member, safety at these airlines often boils down to one thing.
JOHN GOGLIA, FORMER NTSB BOARD MEMBER: And in developing countries they many times cannot afford to send the pilot to some other location to run him through an expensive simulator to keep him current. So they sometimes stretch that out. And that standard in their country is weaker than the standard here in the U.S. or in Western Europe.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TODD (on camera): Experts say the same thing goes for parts, maintenance and certification of mechanics. It simply costs more money to adhere to the standards of top industrialized nations, Wolf.
BLITZER: All right. Brian Todd reporting for us. Thanks. Very important information. Thank you, Brian.
We're following some other news. But each hour we also give you a chance to weigh in on some of the big stories. We call it the "Cafferty File." And guess what? CNN's Jack Cafferty is in New York to update us. Jack?
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Wolf, the Atlanta City Council voted to outlaw begging yesterday. The ban makes it illegal to beg for money in a small downtown area. It passed 12 to 3. The mayor says he will sign it. It will also make it a crime to panhandle throughout the city at night or near public phones or ATMs. Merchants say the ban is necessary because aggressive beggars have hurt their business. Activists for the poor and civil rights groups, though, say it will unfairly affect black males. Indianapolis and Orlando have similar laws in place.
The question this hour is this, should cities be allowed to ban begging? The e-mail address -- CaffertyFile@CNN.com.
BLITZER: All right, Jack. We'll be checking back with you once you start getting in those e-mails. Thanks very much, Jack, with the "Cafferty File."
It would seem unbelievable if it weren't so real -- mistaking children for terrorists. Coming up, here in THE SITUATION ROOM, barring babies from flying because they're showing up on the so-called no-fly list. We'll tell you what's going on.
And the hunt for IEDs -- improvised explosive devices -- hidden explosives in Iraq. We brought you part one of this amazing story yesterday. Coming up, what happens when is U.S. troops try to disarm a bomb? We'll tell you what happens in part two coming up.
And Jimi Hendrix. You know his music. But how much do you really know about his personal life? There are some shocking new details that have just been released. We'll tell you about them. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Now in our SITUATION ROOM "Security Watch", children -- yes, children -- being mistaken for terrorists. Some infants have been stopped temporarily from boarding airplanes in the United States because their names are similar to suspected terrorists on the government's so-called no-fly list.
Ingrid Sanden's daughter 1-year-old daughter was stopped before boarding a flight last Thanksgiving in Phoenix. We'll talk with her a minute.
First, CNN's Jeanne Meserve is here to sketch out the story a little bit for us. Jeanne, what's going on?
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, no one knows how often it happens. But children like the one you will shortly meet have indeed been delayed at airports and sometimes missed flights. The problem is that until recently, there were no birthdates associated with the no-fly list, so anybody with a matching name was subject to extra scrutiny.
The Transportation Security Administration says it has tried to address the situation.
MARK HATFIELD, TSA SPOKESMAN: The no-fly list has been the focus of very hard work over the last several months. We've done a number of things. We've made sure that every name on the no-fly list has a birth date associated with it. That's a big step in eliminating these false matches.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MESERVE (on camera): But there is still a problem. It is the job of the airlines to check traveler names against the list. As of now, the TSA says most airlines are not asking for birth dates at the time of ticket purchase. That means if there is a name match, the process of eliminating an obvious non-terrorist doesn't take place and until the day of travel, which can cause inconvenience and even missed flights.
Wolf?
BLITZER: Let's speak about inconvenience and missed flight. Let's bring in Ingrid Sanden. Ingrid, thanks very much for joining us. You've got an adorable kid there. Tell our viewers what happened to you.
INGRID SANDEN, CHILD'S NAME ON "NO-FLY LIST": Sure. We were flying from Phoenix back to our home in suburban Washington, D.C., through National Airport, and stood in line, waited for the kiosk. And my husband were able to get our boarding passes without a problem. But my daughter had a problem. So we needed to go to the desk, the airline desk and figure out what was wrong. And it was kind of complicated and it seemed a little confusing for everybody involved. Finally after I think a phone call, they found out that our daughter was on the no-fly list. And so we were probably as anyone would have been, very confused and a little bit amused -- but kind of shocked.
BLITZER: What did they say to you? Did they say you couldn't fly?
SANDEN: Well, they didn't say that. The -- sorry, Wolf.
BLITZER: That's all right.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It hurts! It hurts me!
SANDEN: The airline -- the airline -- I'm just going to put her down.
BLITZER: You can put her down. That's okay.
SANDEN: The airline employee was actually very helpful, very friendly and did her job very well and very quickly. And she just said, you know your daughter's on the no-fly list and she kind of chuckled. But she had to do her job, she had to do what she needed to do. I don't know what exactly that was, but I assume it involved some sort of override from the TSA to allow our daughter to fly.
BLITZER: How long did it take to clarify the whole problem?
SANDEN: Probably about half an hour. It was -- it wasn't horrible. We didn't miss our flight. But it was Thanksgiving. So the lines were long and I think everyone was kind of wondering what was going on. My husband and I definitely were. And you're laden down with bags and baby stuff and it was kind of like, great, one more thing at an airport to deal with.
BLITZER: It could be pretty inconvenient. Jean, are there actually kids on the no fly-list?
MESERVE: Yes. Came as a surprise to me. Yeah, there are kids under 12. Just a handful. Estimates are there are 100,000 people on the no-fly list and a very, very small number are children under the age of 12. They are known to have close associations with known or suspected terrorists. My guess would be they're probably their children.
BLITZER: What does the TSA do when somebody shows up, one of these 100,000 people and say you're not allowed to fly. Do they notify authorities and they arrest these people? What do they do?
MESERVE: Well, it's actually the airline that makes the match. They're charged with responsibility for doing this. And one presumes they do contact authorities if they determine unlike in this case that they actually have a terrorist in hand.
But what the TSA hopes is to streamline the process a little bit with something called Secure Flight, which is a program in the pipeline, supposed to be rolled out towards the first of the year, the first phases, and then the TSA, rather than 70 different airlines with different procedures would be the ones charged with making the matches.
BLITZER: Ingrid, have you flown with your daughter since the incident?
SANDEN: We actually did in May. And because the airline worker in November told us a little tip on how to make our flying easier, we were able to fly in May with absolutely no problem even though I haven't actually gone to the trouble of getting her off the list. But I will do that, obviously.
BLITZER: I think that's pretty significant, pretty important for future travel. Thanks very much, Ingrid Sanden, and thank your adorable daughter as well.
SANDEN: Thank you.
BLITZER: And stay tuned to CNN day and night for the most reliable news about your security.
You've heard those so-called crazy discount deals in department stores. But the scene in Virginia really was maddening. Coming up, a bolt for a bargain turning into an ugly and violent scene. We'll have details.
We'll also have part two of a harrowing story coming out of Iraq -- the hunt for IEDs or hidden explosives. We'll show you what happens when U.S. troops literally try to dismantle a bomb.
You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JOHN LAUGENBERG, BUSH NEIGHBOR (video clip): I'm seriously concerned about the safety of my children living down there since there is no other way out. We have to go through this area every day at least twice a day. My wife and I both, my children have to go in and out of this area.
BLITZER: That's one of President Bush's neighbors in Crawford, Texas, explaining why he has a problem with the anti-war protest movement outside the president's ranch. Some local residents have asked county leaders to prevent large gatherings near the western White House.
Another Crawford area resident vented his frustration with peace protesters in a very different way. He was arrested for allegedly running over hundreds of small wooden crosses bearing the names of fallen U.S. soldiers.
Protest leader Cindy Sheehan and her supporters expressed shock and sadness.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CINDY SHEEHAN, SON KILLED IN IRAQ: What happened last night is very disturbing to all of us. And it really should be very disturbing to America because no matter what you think about the war, we should all honor the sacrifices of the ones who have fallen.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This has nothing to do with politics. It has nothing to do with whether you're for or against the war.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is for grieving comrades from my battalion no are no longer with us or are no longer here who sacrificed in some way their lives so that the individual that did this had the freedom to drive down this American highway and desecrate their graves.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everybody is supporting the troops, and honoring the troops. And this definitely was not a way to honor troops, no matter what side of the fence you're on.
(END VIDEOTAPE) BLITZER: Tensions outside the president's ranch began to rise this weekend when hundreds of people gathered for anti-war and pro- Bush rallies snarling traffic.
It's a really good deal that took a very bad turn. CNN's Zain Verjee standing by in the CNN Center with details of what turned out to be a stampede. Zain, what happened?
ZAIN VERJEE, CNN ANCHOR: Wolf, the school district in Richmond, Virginia, was offering big discounts on used laptop computers. But no one thought the demand would get completely out of hand.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I got -- my baby could have been killed.
VERJEE (voice-over): This woman and her child among those caught in the chaos. Thousands lined up for a deal that proved too popular for its own good. The Richmond, Virginia, School District selling used iBook laptop computers for just $50 each. The crowd began forming at the Richmond International Raceway overnight and when the doors open at 7:00 in the morning, it looked like a stampede.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's crazy because some people got trampled.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I got through the door without walking. I was just pushed all the way through.
VERJEE: Sales were limited to one laptop per person. But because of the demand and disorder ...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need you all to back off of the building.
VERJEE: Many who waited long hours walked away empty-handed and angry.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It makes me really mad. We're standing out here sweating and don't get a laptop. And we've been waiting for this day a long time.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VERJEE: And we've also been told that 17 people suffered minor injuries in the rush -- four of them taken to the hospital. We tried to contact the school district for comment but our call was not returned.
BLITZER: Coming up, on patrol in Iraq. We take you out with the troops looking for roadside bombs. Part two of our behind the scenes story.
A major earthquake off Japan, it toppled some buildings and shook others 200 miles away.
Penetrating the purple haze. You'll never guess how rock legend Jimi Hendrix got out of the Army. A new book offers answers. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Here's a look at some of the hot shots coming in from the Associated Press -- some of the best pictures from around the world, likely to be in your newspapers tomorrow.
Check some of these out, including this one you're about to see, the Wrigley Doublemint Twins. They're nominated for icons. Check that out.
From still photos to a very, very serious story -- a very serious story we're following right now, improvised explosive devices. They have taken a devastating toll on U.S. troops in Iraq. Yesterday, we took you on a patrol in Iraq with U.S. Marines hunting for those roadside bombs.
Now CNN's Alex Quade continues her riveting story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ALEX QUADE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Gunnery Sergeant Jeff Von Daggenhart (ph) and his Marines have hit 22 IEDs, improvised explosive devices, in two weeks.
GUNNERY SERGEANT JEFF VON DAGGENHART (ph), U.S. MARINES: I took some shrapnel in the leg, and thank God for gear because it took a piece here right in my holster and then I got shrapnel across my leg. It's healing up now. It's all good. My helmet, you can see my helmet, my eyes are here.
QUADE (on camera): Good thing you had these things on.
DAGGENHART: Oh yeah.
QUADE (voice-over): Some in his platoon brought extra protection on their own.
DAGGENHART: He's not playing around. Got SAPI here, SAPI here.
QUADE: Everything helps since their daily mission is hunting for bombs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But you get used to -- you know, as we first got here, it was like paranoid, where's the holes? Oh, my God. And now it's just like if it's going to happen, it's going to happen.
QUADE: It does, on the important main supply route between Fallujah and Baghdad.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We've got some (DELETED EXPLETIVE) here. (EXPLETIVE) go ahead and hold everybody up. Abandon vehicle. Hoop a loop on this (EXPLETIVE). No license plate.
QUADE: Daggenhart's Marines secure the area.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're just looking for trunks that are ajar, windows that may have been shot, doors welded shut, keyholes that are taken out, ignition wires that are ripped apart, wires coming out of the vehicle.
QUADE: They don't see anything.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you want to go check it?
I don't know. Boom. Yes, I don't know.
QUADE: They decide to push it off the convoy route with an up- armored Humvee when it happens.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (EXPLETIVE)
Get out. Get out. Get out. Get your ass back! Get your ass back!
QUADE: This is what the military calls a vehicle-borne IED -- translation, car bomb.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You OK?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They said they saw somebody running down there.
QUADE: Someone watching and waiting for the right moment, the Marines say, detonated it remotely.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Son of a bitch. Well, welcome to friggin' Iraq.
QUADE: Amazingly, no one was seriously hurt.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hurry up before that 50-cal starts cooking.
Move it there, because that's 50-cal ammo and everything's going to start cooking.
QUADE: Ammunition can blow, causing casualties, or be salvaged by insurgents.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ammo, ammo.
QUADE: Daggenhart worries there may be a second bomb timed to target the recovery.
DAGGENHART: We're going to have a secondary if we don't get the (EXPLETIVE) out of here. Get a convo (ph) of Marines.
QUADE: Humvee driver Lance Corporal Jason Hunt (ph) tells me he thought he was going to die, then walks by me to pull security while his platoon deals with the situation.
LANCE CORPORAL JASON HUNT, U.S. MARINES: Pretty close. I consider myself lucky.
QUADE: Gunner Daggenhart says it's just another day hunting for bombs and bomb builders.
DAGGENHART: We're going to eventually kill them at least in this little piece of the pie. I don't know how we're going to get them, but we are going to get them.
I'd rather have a vehicle blown up than a Marine.
QUADE: Alex Quade, CNN, near Abu Ghraib prison, Iraq.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: And if you missed part one of Alex Quade's behind the scenes story on the hunt for IEDs, you can go to cnn.com. You can see it there for free. I recommend you do so if you haven't seen it yet.
There's a developing story we're following. CNN's Ali Velshi joining us. Ali, can you hear me in New York?
ALI VELSHI, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, I got you, Wolf.
BLITZER: I know there's a big story coming up that you're following. What's going on?
VELSHI: Yes. I just got off the phone. We've got some information right now. Now, here's what my computer has been doing for at least the last half an hour. You see this notice that says "This system is shutting down, please save all work." It shuts down, it turns on. This is affecting all the computers in our building, it's affecting CNN in Atlanta. Now, we've been making phone calls. This appears to be a worm, a very widespread worm.
I just spoke to somebody with a head office in Fort Wayne, Indiana. They are down. CNN has confirmed that the "New York Times" running computers with Windows 2000. Those computers are affected there.
ABC News in New York is being affected. We're making phone calls right now. Our systems right now are mostly down. My computer upstairs is running Windows XP and it's fine.
We have checked. The police department and fire department here in New York are fine. They've not apparently been affected.
So the word is that -- initial reports are that this may be the Zotob worm. It gets into your computer. If you've got Windows 2000, that's not protected by a patch which apparently was only released last week, it gets in. It scans for vulnerable parts of your system, shuts it down, does all sorts of things.
You can see that that's just happened to my computer. It shut down. It's now starting up. Nobody's touching anything on this thing.
We are finding out, CNN is investigating what this is about. But it does appear to be relatively widespread to computers that run Windows 2000, an older system. At the moment, we don't know the impact of this is other than the fact that I can't sort of get on and communicate on my e-mail like many other people here in New York.
But we do know at least some people in Atlanta have been affected. We do know -- we're just getting calls in from places that are being affected.
At the moment, emergency services here at least in New York do not appear to be affected.
Wolf, we're on the story.
BLITZER: I just see -- I'm watching your computer. Check this out, Ali. The error screen just went off. If you hit Control-Alt- Delete, what happens right now?
VELSHI: Well, let me show you.
BLITZER: Windows just popped up.
VELSHI: Right. See, I'm doing that to start the computer again. And it's going to ask me for my sign-in information, which I will put in. It's looking for my password, so I'll put that in.
Hang on a second. All right.
So this should now be starting up normally as it typically would. Now, it sometimes gets all the way through start-up and then that screen will pop up right there in the middle again, any second now. And it will say that the computer is shutting down and please save any work that you have. It doesn't allow you to do anything though. The minute that screen pops up, the computer is -- there we go. There's the screen right now.
BLITZER: There it is.
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: Now, this Zotob worm, is this a new worm or old worm?
VELSHI: It seems to emulate the MS Blaster worm that we saw in 2003, but it's not that. Initial word that we're getting is that it's not considered as widespread as that. I'm not quite sure.
I mean, I've got to tell you, I'm not much of a computer expert. We are just getting on the phone with Symantec and McAfee, sellers of virus software. Obviously, the minute these things happen, these guys know about it first and they probably will have fixes out, if they don't already have one right now.
But initially, obviously, Wolf, for our purposes as a news organization, the first thing we want to do is make sure everybody's safe and that critical systems are still working.
So our first phone calls aren't actually to get -- figure out the computers; they're to figure out whether this is any more widespread and anything more dangerous than hackers and mischief makers.
BLITZER: Now, we know it's in New York. You say not only us, but ABC and other businesses, other companies in New York. We know it's affected our colleagues, our friends in Atlanta at the CNN Center.
Do we know of other places around the country where this virus or worm or whatever it is may have hit?
VELSHI: Well, I just by coincidence called somebody who happens to have a head office in Indiana and they said they were out. It just happened to be that, that was the person I called.
So I would imagine that as we're making more phone calls right now, we'll find that this is probably more widespread than these two areas. We -- as we said in New York, we have confirmation on the "New York Times" and ABC at least experiencing some part of this, and it's definitely still happening in our building.
BLITZER: In the past, these worms, are they the work, you know, of hackers, you know, some 19-year-old punk out there who thinks he's pretty cool? Or are they the work of, you know, a much more sophisticated operation?
VELSHI: Well, you know, to get sophisticated in making a worm, you just have to spend a lot of time understanding these things. Sometimes it's people with a beef with Microsoft or who don't like the evil empire or whatever it is.
I've always maintained, you know, that like getting nuclear weapons out of the hands of a country you think is hostile, if we could figure out a way to get these hackers on this side of the thing, you'd have to pay them a lot of money. But they're quite ingenious. I mean, these things can do a lot of damage. And in some cases it's nothing more than this kind of an inconvenience, but who knows who it affects.
For example, we're in danger right now that we have a show that comes out of CNN, as you know, LOU DOBBS TONIGHT at 6:00 p.m. That's complicating the factor. That's the worst that's going to happen to the world, that we're going to have a different kind of LOU DOBBS TONIGHT, that's not bad.
But what if you are an emergency service? What if you're a hospital? What if you're a police operation or a fire department? You know, people's lives could be at risk, so if it is somebody fooling around it's a bad joke.
BLITZER: Well one of the complaints -- and I think Jack Cafferty would probably like to weigh on this as well because I know he's got strong thoughts. One of the problems in the past -- one of the problems in the past, Ali, is that those hackers who have been arrested, they usually don't get much of a punishment in the scheme of things, even though they can cause so much inconvenience and tens of millions of dollars if not more in damage to various businesses and to average people out there, as well. This is a serious problem. VELSHI: And most of hacking, most of the people who send these worms out and hack, Wolf, we never know about. They may well target specific organizations, they may be mischief-makers. They may inconvenience people. So we don't have a penalty system that's terribly well-developed around computer crimes because they run the range from shutting somebody's computer down or erasing it, to things like this, which could be bigger. They could be more critical, more damaging.
And I think that's part of -- we have to go through these things and understand when they are this serious, if they find out who does these things, they need to treat it more seriously than they would somebody who sends something out that deletes your e-mails. In 2005, it's much more serious to not have control of your computer even for an hour than it is in other times.
One of the things that I've been doing is I've been calling some of the Wall Streeters who we work with. Well, their systems are reportedly also affected by this, and there's a lot of money that gets affected by that. There are people's trades, there are people's banking, bill payment.
You know, some of these things are pretty serious. And we will have to develop ways of dealing with it to deter hackers. But it's a big pastime, Wolf. A lot of people spend a lot of time figuring these things out and how to cripple computer systems. And it doesn't make any difference. Even if you do all the upgrades with the anti-virus software, everything you're supposed to be doing, sometimes these hackers are so ingenious, they can get around that.
VELSHI: Yes. And as I said, as soon as we're back up and certainly have phone confirmation, we'll let you know and our viewers know what the fix is for this and what you're supposed to do. For the moment, until we know what it is, if you are running Windows 2000, Wolf, shut the computer down.
Don't touch it, don't put it on until we find out what's going on. Now, Wolf, hang on one second because we're getting some information in. Typically I would get it over the computer, but we don't have it.
My producer Caleb Silver is here. It is being reported by Rediff.com (ph) that it is a virus. I'm just reading through this. It is the Zotob virus according to this printout that I've got. It's believed to be the fastest virus, the fastest worm in history of a particular type.
Now I don't know what that means because I don't know enough about this. But here's how it works. It drops a copy of itself into the Windows system and then it does things in the system to connect to the Internet -- if you're connected to the Internet. And it allows a hacker -- and I suppose in this case a hacker system -- to control the system and then spreads to other machines in that network.
They're getting hundreds of reports in the United States and Germany right now, and they're expecting it to spread to Asia-Pacific. As you know, not open for business yet. So that's what we're looking at right now. Here's the list of people we have confirmations from are affected by this so far here in New York. WABC locally in New York is reporting problems. We've got some people reporting problems at early as early as 1:30 today.
Let me just see what we've got. For now, that's it. We are making other calls to people who are not affected. "USA Today" says they're fine. Other networks are fine. So we're keeping on top of it to see how widespread it is, Wolf.
BLITZER: All right. This is a fast-moving story. We'll stay on top of it. Ali, stand by. We're going to take a quick break. We'll have much more on this and other news right after this.
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BLITZER: We're following a breaking story. Want to welcome our viewers on CNN International, as well. It looks like a computer virus worm has infected some significant computers, some Internet users around the United States, various parts of the United States.
Ali Velshi is in New York. Our systems in New York have been affected by this. Ali, what else are you getting?
VELSHI: Our systems have been affected. We're getting word in late this afternoon that Caterpillar, based in Peoria, Illinois, was affected with -- it's not clear what it is. We're going to make the assumption at least for the moment that it's the same worm, the ESbot (sic) worm.
Microsoft has issues a warning about the ESbot (sic) worm. It is -- it exploits security deficiencies in your computer system and then can copy itself. Now, we're still trying to find out whether that's it. Affects computers running Microsoft 2000 of which this is one. It switches itself on and off frequently. We are getting reports of a lot of people, a lot of companies affected by it.
We're making calls, Wolf, but what we know so far is no reports yet of emergency services being affected or critical operations being affected. We're staying on this story and we'll let you know how widespread this is. For the moment, CNN computers in New York and Atlanta that are running Windows 2000 are affected. Most computers running Windows XP for the moment do not seem to be affected. If you've got a 2000 computer, shut it down. If it's not on, don't put it on until you've heard more about this.
BLITZER: Hundreds of infection reports cited already in the United States and Germany.
Let's bring in CNN's Daniel Sieberg, at the CNN Center, our technology correspondent. What are you learning, Daniel?
DANIEL SIEBERG, CNN TECHNOLOGY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, we've been covering worms and viruses for many years. And just to put this into perspective, this is happening very quickly. So a lot of this information comes in, we're trying to put it all together for people. It is called Zotob, this virus or worm. And we're assuming that that's what this is.
It's been making the rounds recently and affecting various computers internationally as well as the U.S. And basically, although it's shutting people's computers down -- that's sort of the M.O. or how this virus or worm works -- beyond that, there's the possibility that someone could get remote access or control of certain computers. So that's certainly a worry as well, beyond just the inconvenience or the, you know, of shutting down some of these computers. We've seen Ali's computer go on and off there, which is obviously an inconvenience that would affect productivity, and a lot of these businesses, they simply can't do business.
We here at CNN have had trouble just logging on, getting access to the Web. It's tough to follow this story when you can't have access to the Web to try and get information through traditional means that we do very often here.
This is a flaw that was reported by Microsoft last week. In fact, I believe there were three critical security flaws that it reported in some of its software last week. So this virus or worm -- again, assuming that's what this is that's causing all of this -- is exploiting that hole in the software. So something that certainly is a big story right now.
BLITZER: I'm getting this information, Daniel, from a company called Trend Micro, Inc., which says that the worm exploits security holes in Microsoft's Windows 95, 98, ME and the 2000 and XP platforms, and can give computer attackers remote access to affected systems. Is that consistent with what you know about this Zotob worm?
SIEBERG: That's what we're hearing, as well. And you can imagine that you listed off basically every operating system that people use today. So that's a huge array of computers, a huge number of computers that we're talking about here. You know, a lot of people don't use Windows 95 or even 98 so much anymore; a lot of people switched over to 2000 and XP. But that is a lot of computer systems that we're talking about.
Now, whether or not people have patched their systems before this point is the question, whether these companies or even home users have had this patch put in place before the worm went around. That's what we don't know. And obviously, if a lot of these systems are shutting down, perhaps that wasn't in place before this happened.
So, you know, this type of story, when we're covering a worm or a virus, a lot of times these holes get reported before the worm or the virus goes out. And it's up to each individual company's tech support to put in place the actual patch for something like that.
We don't know if that was in place, and perhaps it got around it in some way. This is a -- maybe it's another variation. A lot of these worms or viruses change, they shift over time. The creators make a new one that exploits a different hole, or something else. So it moves very quickly, Wolf.
BLITZER: We're getting this information -- two days ago, Daniel, Microsoft released this information to its customers. Zotob.e is a worm targeting Windows 2000-based systems, which takes advantage of a security issue that was addressed by Microsoft security bulletin -- blah- blah-blah. This worm installs malicious software and then looks for other computers to infect.
So clearly Microsoft has known about this for, what, 48 hours?
SIEBERG: Right. Sounds like that's the case. And as I say, this is a debate that goes on within the Internet security community, when these holes are discovered, whether to report them and make it public that these are available, thereby possibly enticing hackers or somebody else to break into them, or whether it's better to keep it secret and just spread it out within the Internet community and make sure that they're patched.
The reason to be public about something like that is to make more people aware of it, and therefore hopefully patch more systems and make it safer. The idea to keep it secure and secret would be so that it doesn't fall into -- the information doesn't fall into the wrong hands and is not exploited by someone who has malicious intent.
Obviously, this is going to be a huge investigation to track down where this started, where it's going. But basically, that information is consistent with what we're hearing right now.
BLITZER: All right, Daniel, stand by, and get some more information for us. We're trying to gauge how serious a matter this is. It sounds very serious. I wonder if the FBI is getting involved.
Kelli Arena, our justice correspondent, is already here. You've been checking with your sources over at Justice, the FBI. What are they saying?
KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: I have. And Wolf, I mean, I heard what Daniel said. I heard you read the Microsoft statement. I can just tell you that basically, the FBI is saying that their people who monitor computer systems say that they are unaware of any new virus or worm that has been launched in the past 24 hours.
This only muddies the situation. I'm sorry, folks, I'm not here to clear anything up for you, obviously. FBI, as you know, has worked on a variety of these issues before. They've made several arrests when they can, when they can prosecute. They have people tracking these sort of things, you know, 24/7. And right now what they're saying is, they don't have any information.
But you know what, I've been sitting on this set now for about four minutes, so that conversation is five minutes old, and in a situation like this, information comes in very rapidly, and there could be an entirely new statement. I'm going to run up there and find out if they have anything more to say at this point.
BLITZER: All right, Kelli, I'll let you get back to work. Microsoft in that statement that was released two days ago to customers, that -- it said that when Zotob.e infects a computer, it attempts to deliver a malicious file named botzor.exe -- b-o-t-z-o-r -- and they've got some specific recommendations what to do if you think your computer might be infected.
Let's bring in our Internet reporters, Jacki Schechner and Abbi Tatton. They're watching this story as well. What are you guys learning?
ABBI TATTON, CNN INTERNET CORRESPONDENT: If you want some information on Trend Micro -- this is the software company out of Tokyo that warned yesterday about this virus that could possibly be out there, the one we are assuming is Zotob, you can go here to TrendMicro.com. They have a virus encyclopedia, listing a few different possible viruses out there, and there's information here on Zotob there at their site, TrendMicro.com.
If you go to it, here's the part I highlighted -- the different platforms that this virus could travel on, Windows 98, 2000, that we've heard a lot about from Ali Velshi -- that's what he's affected on -- the characteristics as well, that it's propagated via e-mail. So that there from TrendMicro, who have been warning about this since yesterday.
JACKI SCHECHNER, CNN INTERNET CORRESPONDENT: Also, some other things we talked about, how this was listed in an online Chinese news site, how this came out about Zotob. So it's not just here in the States, it's actually made international news. Wanted to show you that.
Also, some of the other sites we've found -- let's see if we can pull this up -- Sophos virus analysis. What we would show you if it came up is that it had a very low rating. That was another thing we found at McAfee, which, if you have AOL or some of the big Internet service providers, your virus scan, the one that checks to make sure you don't have any viruses, one of the big ones being McAfee, and they listed it as low, as well.
So it wasn't seen to be a big threat up until right now, Wolf. As far as what we can tell, is online sites rating it very low preference, low priority as far as any danger.
BLITZER: All right. Let me get back to you.
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