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Nancy Grace
Rader Sentenced to Life in Prison; Traces of Cocaine Found in Murdered 9-Year-Old`s Body
Aired August 18, 2005 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, GUEST HOST: Tonight, breaking news. Just released -- cocaine found in little 9-year-old Jessica Lunsford`s body. We will have all the new graphic details. Plus, the BTK killer, Dennis Rader, gets life behind bars.
Good evening, everybody. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, filling in for Nancy Grace. Thanks for being with us tonight.
Breaking news: judgment day for BTK killer Dennis Rader. Rader gets life in prison for killing 10 people over 17 years, the sentence handed down after families of the victims confronted Rader in court and after Rader gave a long, rambling statement admitting he had no way out.
And it`s been over a month since 26-year-old George Smith disappeared off of his honeymoon cruise somewhere between Turkey and Greece. Still no arrests in the case.
But first, disturbing results from the toxicology report performed on 9-year-old Jessie Lunsford. Traces of cocaine -- yes, cocaine -- were found in Jessie`s little body. Investigators say John Couey, who is accused of raping and murdering Jessie earlier this year, admitted to smoking crack cocaine during the three days he held her.
Tonight, in New York, forensic scientist Larry Kobilinsky and defense attorney Jason Oshins. In LA, defense attorney Debra Opri, former prosecutor Mary Fulginiti and psychoanalyst Bethany Marshall.
But first to Tampa, Florida, and WFLA radio reporter Eban Brown. What is the very latest, Eban, on Jessie`s case?
EBAN BROWN, NEWSRADIO 970 WFLA: Well, what we know right now is that the metabolized cocaine was found inside Jessica Lunsford`s system, which means that she didn`t actually use cocaine herself, it just simply means that she was exposed to the smoke of cocaine, meaning it`s a secondhand smoke, cocaine secondhand smoke.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, thank you for that. And I got to show you the actual toxicology report. I have it here in my hand. And Doctor, you have studied this report. So what does it mean? This fiend was doing crack cocaine while he was torturing and raping this child?
LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, I must say, I`ve gone through the report -- and just for the viewers` sense of what cocaine is all about, it can be snorted, it can be injected IV, but in its alkaloid or freebase form, it is smoked. And looking at this autopsy or toxicology report, it is clear that there are metabolites of cocaine, simply meaning that cocaine was in her system.
But now you got to look at the amounts, and the amounts are such that it is pretty clear that she was subjected to secondhand smoke. That means that an individual or individuals had smoked that cocaine and she was in the vicinity. It entered her body, and part of it was metabolized. Now, I must say that some of the metabolite actually came about after she died. It appears that the chemical hydrolysis (ph) resulted in that...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wait a second. You`re saying that maybe her body lay there and they continued to do crack cocaine? Is that what you`re saying, because...
KOBILINSKY: No. No.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK, I`m glad you`re clarifying because I understood that -- and this is an awful, awful detail that I don`t really want to repeat, but I understand that there were claw marks in the bag in which she was buried in a shallow grave, which would indicate that she was actually buried alive -- this child buried alive.
KOBILINSKY: It appears that she died of asphyxiation. But basically, she was exposed to secondhand smoke. And the point that I was making is that after she died, some of the cocaine continued to metabolize. Basically, she did not consume it or inhale it, except for that secondhand smoke.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s so disturbing to even discuss all this. I mean, this is -- this is really one of these awful, awful crimes that just turns your stomach.
Former prosecutor Mary Fulginiti, I want to ask you about something, the first dusting (ph). Take a look at this rap sheet. This guy has a rap sheet a mile long. Take a look at it. It dates all the way back to 1977. We`re talking almost three decades. Mary, why was this man out on the street, also a convicted sex offender? Why was he out?
MARY FULGINITI, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, you know, people, you know, commit crimes, and then they`re, you know, charged with them and then punished and sentenced. They do their time, and then they`re released. And unfortunately, there is a high rate of recidivism with certain criminals that are out there living amongst us all. I think, you know, because he was a registered sex offender, though, at the beginning of this case, it allowed the police at least to have, you know, him on a list that they were going through and in order to determine if one of them were implicated in this. And it did eventually lead him to them.
So in some ways, at least some of the precautions they`re doing with registered sex offenders in this particular case really helped them find him.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And when you hear this toxicology report, can you paint a picture for us of what might have been happening in the last hours and days, perhaps, of this little beauty`s life?
FULGINITI: You know, that`s a very difficult thing to imagine because, you know, I don`t -- you know, it`s really difficult to determine just based on the toxicology report. But it`s pretty clear, based on it, that she wasn`t drugged before being killed, which is what the prosecutors were looking for. It does appear, though, that there may have been cocaine being used around her, on the carpet, trace amounts of cocaine. And it is a very sick and a very sad story, the whole story is, and this is just another piece of it, of a very sad puzzle.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: It sure is. Let`s hear from her dad, Mark.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK LUNSFORD, JESSICA`S FATHER: It`s been the worst roller-coaster ride I`ve ever had in my life. And I`m telling you, I`ve been through some things (INAUDIBLE) just don`t want to have to go through. And this is the worst thing I will ever have to go through in my life. I know it is. And I just -- I just -- all I can do is pray that it doesn`t happen to another parent.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Psychoanalyst Bethany Marshall, what does crack cocaine do to a criminal when they`re committing a crime?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Well, it`s important to know, first of all, that although pedophiles have deviant sexual patterns in terms of their sex fantasies, when they`re on crack cocaine, they`re disinhibited. They distort. Their memory distorts. They can lie afterwards and say that they didn`t remember what was happening during the commission of the crime.
But I want to point out a single-wide trailer is only 817 square feet. There were other people in this trailer. There was crack cocaine being smoked. It`s hard to believe that nobody else knew about the commission of this crime.
And you were asking about what happens to these people, why do they get out of jail. It`s also important to understand that when sex offenders go jail, they have a hard time making relationships. In jail, they become anti-social. They bond to their own deviant sexual fantasies through increased masturbation. And when they get out of jail, they`re angrier and even more ready to offend. So a guy like this needs life in prison or the death sentence.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, we`re going to talk about that in just a moment. You`ve raised so many important questions. There is a letter -- speaking of the idea of other people being in this mobile home. Now, Ellie (ph), tell us a little bit -- give us the back story on this letter before we show it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, what they found was -- one of the jailers found a draft of a letter that Couey had written to somebody in the news media. And in this letter, he intimates that the other people in the house knew what was going on, or might have known.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Let`s -- yes. There were more than three people in the house, one of them knows more than what he is saying. This is a letter written by this guy in jail, right, Ellie, apparently to, actually, Bill O`Reilly.
All right, so the significance of this -- apparently, at first, he was saying that these people didn`t know anything about it. Now he`s changing his tune. Why? Let`s ask a defense attorney. How about Debra Opri?
DEBRA OPRI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Let`s be honest. Why is he writing this letter after the fact? He`s writing the letter because he wants to cut a deal. And the deal he wants to cut is for leniency. He knows they`ve got him by the -- well, I won`t finish the sentence. It`s horrific. It`s graphic. Those people in that small trailer knew what was going on. He`s writing the media because he wants to be on TV. He wants to sell his story. That`s my understanding of what was contained in the letter.
And if he does get the probable cause basis in which to charge these other individuals, and one or more turn on him and/or each other, at least we can take that entire bunch of scum off the streets.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So the way I understand it is that this mobile home was actually just about 150 feet from where Jessie lived. Police had actually gone to this mobile home and tried to interview people. Those people didn`t say, yes, there`s a crack fiend in the back room there with a little girl. They said nothing. And then after the story broke, after they got this guy, they apparently arrested these other people, but they didn`t charge him with anything. And I think the big question is, Why not?
Mary Fulginiti, take a shot at that one.
FULGINITI: You know, what`s been reported, anyway -- what the prosecutor office has revealed is that they didn`t have sufficient evidence that these individuals knew that Jessica was being housed in that trailer.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I got to ask you...
FULGINITI: Even if we can assume...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... how? How could they not know? It`s a mobile home! It`s a trailer. You`re talking about, what, four people plus the actual suspect, plus this little girl in some trailer mobile home? How can they not know?
FULGINITI: You know -- you know, I think on our own gut and speculation, it does seem to be incredible, obviously. But they still need to have evidence in order to pursue a case and to charge somebody and to bring it to trial. And the last thing you want to do is start charging people, especially in this particular case, with tangential crimes somewhat unrelated to his and have acquittals because you don`t want that. So you don`t want to prematurely charge. You don`t want to bring a case that you don`t have sufficient evidence in.
So I think they`re really just going to cross their T`s and dot their I`s and do everything they can before they`re going to bring those charges, and we very well may see them charged in the near future.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And Eban Brown, didn`t authorities apparently -- reportedly, allegedly, possibly -- make some mistakes when this suspect was confessing? He had asked for a lawyer, and there are reports he didn`t get one. So now they`re trying to use that to throw out the confession. Tell us what you know about that.
BROWN: His defense attorney simply says that he was not given a lawyer when he asked for one before he started confessing to things. However, the county sheriff -- Citrus County sheriff Jeff Dawsy -- says he read him his rights seven times, and he still confessed anyway.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So how does that change things, Jason Oshins, defense attorney? He wanted a lawyer. He didn`t get one. But he did get read his rights. So what should happen, in terms of that confession? Should it be thrown out or not?
JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, obviously, Jane, that`s going to be a serious focus of the defense, is to try and unseat that confession. That`s what we call fruit from the poisonous tree. You know, anything from that point where he requested an attorney and wasn`t provided one, and the interrogation continued, well, everything that emanates from that could be thrown out in motions before the actual trial, you know, takes place.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, to me, as a lay person, that sounds like just defense attorneys trying to throw gum in the works. I mean, this man confessed. He said he did it. Mary Fulginiti, how do prosecutors get around this, and is this a bungling of the case or not?
FULGINITI: No, I think this is pretty typical, whenever you have a confession in particular, because that`s pretty damming evidence against the individual. So they try to, you know, get rid of that evidence and put it aside. And one of the ways to do it is to challenge the confession. Here they`re claiming that he wasn`t adequately read his rights, and you know, the investigators are saying, You know, wrong, we did read it to him not one but seven times.
Many states actually require a written waiver, which, you know, is another level of, you know, corroboration that the person did waive it. So we`ll have to see what they have here beyond just the investigators saying that they read the rights to him seven times and presumably waived his right to attorney. But it`s pretty typical.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Debra Opri, you`re a defense attorney. Do you ever get to the point where, as a defense attorney, you say, No, I`m not going to put up a fight? I mean, this crime is too horrific. I want to see justice served, and don`t want to see this guy get away with for torturing, raping, murdering this girl, burying her alive in a shallow grave!
OPRI: I know where you`re going. First, on the confession, this happened to me in federal court. I had a client who wanted an attorney. He`d say a sentence, Maybe I should talk to my attorney. Ask him another question, he answers it. And we filed motions and we fought vigorously, and the judge said the minute he says, I want to talk and he starts to answer the question, it`s a waiver. So with the confession, I have no doubt in my mind that confession is not getting kicked out.
Now, as far as this individual goes, I would not under any circumstances ever represent someone so horrendous. This is the scum of the earth. And all I can tell you is I assimilate (SIC) him to the BTK killer. In his own way, this man bound, tortured this girl, wouldn`t let her flee right across the street from where she lived.
What happens to him? He`s going make a deal. He`ll either go away for life to get out of the death penalty -- I think he should get the death penalty or life in prison, but he should never see the light of day again.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, Debra...
OPRI: As far as our system goes, we have so much to work for. We have to increase our budget state-run (ph), and the prosecutors have too many cases on their plate. The public defenders have too many case, and that`s why they`re making deals. And it`s got to end.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And perhaps that`s why sometimes they make mistakes, as well.
Stay right there. You mentioned BTK. We are going to talk about the BTK killer sentencing in just a little bit.
But first, a quick break and then more about the tragic, sickening, sickening death of this beautiful little child. New details, very disturbing details involving crack cocaine traces found in her system.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LUNSFORD: Couey is a pathological liar. He`s a piece of [DELETED]. Sorry, but it`s the truth. And if he was so willing to leave Jessie alone and in freedom, go as she wanted to, then why`d he tie her up and put her in a hole?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEFF DAWSY, CITRUS COUNTY SHERIFF: We polygraphed the guy, and at the end of the polygraph, he says, You don`t need to tell me the results. I already know what they are. Then I had the investigators came back in, and the investigators came back in. He apologized to the investigators for wasting their time. And I`m now going to use the word that you`ve probably waited me to use. John Couey admitted to abducting Jessica and subsequently taking her life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, filling in for Nancy Grace. And we are talking about the crack fiend who reportedly confessed to raping and murdering little Jessie Lunsford. And now he wants the confession thrown out, saying he didn`t have a lawyer, although he asked for one.
So let`s go back to the toxicology report. And Dusty (ph), if you could take a look at this. This was analyzed by our doctor on the scene, forensic scientist Dr. Larry Kobilinsky. You`ve looked at this. What does this offer in terms of evidence, if that confession is actually thrown out?
KOBILINSKY: Well, it could have been -- she could have been exposed to secondhand smoke perhaps two or three days prior to her death.
I hope that the confession is not thrown out, but even if it were to be thrown out, I believe there`s more than sufficient evidence to convict him. There are fingerprints in at least two locations in his bedroom. There are at least four places where her blood is found, including the mattress in his bedroom. And of course, there is a rape kit. The medical examiner confirmed not only that she died of asphyxiation but she had been raped. So there`s probably DNA evidence there pointing directly at Mr. Couey.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And before the show, we were talking about this being one of the worst cases you`ve ever seen.
KOBILINSKY: This has got to be one of the worst, if not the worst case, I have ever seen in my life.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Imagine being the father of this little girl. Imagine being the father of this child and hearing this. I can`t even imagine. Let`s hear from him himself, Mark Lunsford.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LUNSFORD: My daughter was kidnapped, raped and buried alive. Is this what you want to happen to your children? Call your lawmakers. Lean on them. Lean on them very hard. Start your petitions and make a lot of noise and demand changes. We need to keep these people behind bars. Repeat offenders -- just remember that, they repeat what they do. Don`t let this be your child.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now this guy wants -- there`s a trial set to start February 6, and this defendant wants to delay, delay, delay. Debra Opri, is delay a defendant`s best friend?
OPRI: Yes, delay is a defendant`s best friend. He`s trying to delay it. He wants to make a deal. He knows that when this goes to trial -- and that confession will get in. And say perchance it didn`t. It will, but say it didn`t. You`re going have enough evidence to convict him, and he knows it. He`s going to sell every person in that trailer for leniency, to make a deal. He`s probably trying to spare his life right now. But he will never go to trial. This case will never see the light of a day in a courtroom. That`s why the delays, Jane.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And Debra, one more sick fact that I`m reading here - - we`ve been reading. This guy molested several of his family members, and they just didn`t report it. How about that?
OPRI: This -- this man has a history of being molested as a child. It`s no excuse. He didn`t get the help he needed. He went into the system. He came out. He raped these other people. It`s silence. It is the silent evil in families.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right...
OPRI: I just have one thing to say...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, we`re going to have to hold it right there...
OPRI: All right.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... but we`re going to get back to you.
OPRI: All right.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... unfortunately, a lot more really demented crimes to talk about, as a sad commentary on our society. Thank you, Debra.
Now to "Trial Tracking." Tonight, the search continues for a missing pregnant woman from Philadelphia, 24 years old, Latoyia Figueroa, also the mother of a 7-year-old girl, disappeared July 18 after visiting her doctor. Police found a decomposing female body in an empty lot earlier this week, but initial fears that it is Latoyia seem unfounded. Officials say that the physical description suggests it is not the missing mom. There is a $10,000 reward for information on Latoyia and $90,000 for information leading to an arrest and conviction. Please call Philadelphia police at 215-686-3183 if you know anything.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: George Allen smith and Jennifer Hagel seemed to own the future.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: George just had a, I guess you would say, a charisma or a personality, a quality about him that -- you know, that stuck out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jen Hagel was the type of -- she was the type of girl that everyone loved.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They had everything -- looks, love and a long life together ahead of them.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was adorable, tall and very good looking and friendly.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was looking forward to, you know, a happy life being married to George.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, filling in for Nancy Grace. Tonight, day 45 and still no sign of 26-year-old George Smith. Smith disappeared on his honeymoon cruise somewhere between Turkey and Greece. No arrests yet in the case, and the Smith family still refuses to comment.
Tonight, in Stamford, Connecticut, private detective Vito Colucci of Colucci Investigations. But first to New York and "A Current Affair" correspondent Harris Faulkner. What`s the very latest?
HARRIS FAULKNER, "A CURRENT AFFAIR": Well, Jane, we`re starting to see a timeline collapse around one important hour, between 4:00 AM and 5:00 AM on the morning of July 5, when we know George Allen Smith went missing. Why that time? Well, around 4:00 o`clock in the morning, that`s when what the media are calling three persons of interest say they last saw George Smith alive.
And then about 5:00 o`clock, we`ve learned from a crew member who only "A Current Affair" talked with -- one of the crew members, the first to talk from the ship, has said that one of his co-workers, a security officer, found Jennifer Hagel Smith in another part of the ship around 5:00 o`clock in the morning, drunk on a deck chair, and escorted her back to the cabin. So according to that crew member, we have got about an hour there, 4:00 to 5:00. Who was with George inside of his cabin? What happened as he was going over the balcony?
And Jane, something new today. We talked again with Clete Hyman. You may remember he`s the deputy police chief who stayed next-door to the Smiths` cabin. And we found out an important detail today that we didn`t know before. He actually, after the hour of 4:00 o`clock, had looked out into the hallway, and he saw three people, three men standing in the hallway.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, so we`ve got a narrowed window of opportunity, more evidence on alcohol. What does it all mean? We`re going to be back, and we`re going to try to solve this terrible mystery in a moment. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SOPHIA CHOI, CNN HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR: Hi there. I`m Sophia Choi with your "Headline Prime Newsbreak."
Well, the mother who lost a son in Iraq and began protesting at President Bush`s Texas ranch is leaving for a while. Cindy Sheehan`s mother apparently suffered a stroke, so she left Camp Casey to be with her.
Israeli forces have stormed synagogues and two Jewish settlements in Gaza to evict hundreds of militant holdouts. The unarmed soldiers were pelted with objects as they pulled protesters away. Most of Gaza settlements are now clear.
Families of victims murdered by the BTK Killer are speaking out now after today`s verdict. Dennis Rader won`t be eligible for parole until he`s 100. One of the victims called the killer a "walking cesspool."
And doctors say they`re optimistic about Coretta Scott King`s recovery chances. The widow of Martin Luther King, Jr., suffered a major stroke and a minor heart attack. She`s currently not able to speak.
That`s the news for now. I`m Sophia Choi.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FAULKNER (voice-over): In the early morning hours of July 5th, people report hearing arguments, banging and loud voices coming from the Smiths` cabin, followed by a horrific thud which awakened other passengers.
The next day, a large blood stain was seen on the metal awning under the Smiths` cabin. Had any of these young men been in the room? Do they know what went on? Answers are hard to come by.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell filling in for Nancy Grace, and we`re trying to solve this mystery. And there are two key issues: money and alcohol.
First, let`s hear a crew member describe the condition of the bride that night.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
"ALBERT", CREW MEMBER: She was drunk. She had way too many drinks. And she had just left. She didn`t say anything. She didn`t do anything. She just left.
She couldn`t even walk, like, straight up. She was staggering out of the bar.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Now, let`s go back to Harris Faulkner, because I want to ask you about another issue that could connect with the alcohol issue, and that`s the money issue. There were reports that George Smith was talking about money. I`ve heard everything from $15,000 to $50,000. How did he get that money? Where was it?
FAULKNER: Well, there are a couple of reports that are out there, Jane. One is that the money came from wedding money that they had obviously gotten as gifts. And the other was what we heard more consistently from the witnesses and passengers whom we`ve talked with, and that is that George was winning in the casino and spreading the love, if you will, by buying drinks and whatnot and bragging about that cash.
I do want to point out, today, again, Jane, we talked with Clete Hyman, who we`ve talked to before. And you might wonder, well, why would you want to re-interview a witness again? Well, we did, because when we saw the couple on the other side of the Smiths` cabin also talking to the media and talking about opening their door, going out into a hallway and possibly seeing three men as they described, we wondered, well, wait a minute. Wouldn`t the other guy who was a cop have been just as curious as these ordinary citizens?
Come to find out, Jane, in fact, maybe kind of holding out on us before when we talked with him, because he did, in fact, open his door, look outside shortly after the hour of 4:00 a.m., see three guys in the hallway. And, again, this is after hearing those banging noises inside the cabin, but before the thud. Significant timeline information.
So now you have a picture where people around the cabin are describing what happened. And what this signifies to me is just how much closer the FBI actually might be to solving this. These are important pieces of the puzzle.
And, as Clete Hyman told us today, "Harris, we still can`t tell you the whole story. I can`t share with you the whole story," because potentially he could be a witness in court one day and he doesn`t want to impeach himself on the stand by something he might have said, you know, out in an interview.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, Harris, because the FBI and the U.S. attorney`s office aren`t talking, there is a lot of speculation. I have to tell you, I`ve got some of my own. And I actually was asleep and woke up with this thought.
So this is definitely speculation. But you have money, OK? He`s talking about money. You have alcohol. And, apparently, it was absinthe. And that`s extremely, extremely -- what is it, Ellie, tell us, 100 and something proof?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 160 proof.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s 100...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Eighty percent alcohol.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You can`t buy it on the ship.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You can`t buy it in the U.S.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But somebody was giving it to them that night.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s what`s been reported.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. So somebody might have been giving it to the groom and the bride.
Vito Colucci, you`re a private eye. Could somebody have been trying to get this couple drunk, as drunk as they could, so that they could get them back to the room, so that they could go into the room, rifle through the room, find the money? Wouldn`t that account for the sound of furniture moving?
VITO COLUCCI, PRIVATE DETECTIVE: Oh, definitely, Jane. See, that`s why you can`t lock in just to these three individuals here. It could very well be somebody that works on the boat. OK, I don`t know that.
But, you know, these guys who are the boat 24 hours a day, they`re from many different countries. I was on a show with a former security director of a cruise line who says they don`t even do background checks. So you have to keep your mind open, as a lead investigator on a case of this nature.
Obviously, those three men are important. They`re the last ones that were seen. But not just to people that are working that ship that work on the boat, but these people who are locked in that boat, somebody else that worked day shift or whatever.
It`s a pretty woman there. A lot of money being talked about. You know, poor Mr. Smith is fall-down drunk. It`s a pretty easy target, if you have a couple of guys.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Right. Well, what struck me is they`re both fall- down drunk. And, you know, these poor people, we`ve invited them on our show, both families, the grooms and the brides. They`re understandably in seclusion.
But they don`t have a track record of this kind of behavior. So if somebody were trying to get them drunk -- let me ask our psychoanalyst, Bethany Marshall. That`s something that could happen, right? Somebody could feed somebody liquor and sort of get them drunk for their own purposes.
MARSHALL: Definitely somebody could do that. Getting another person high or loaded is a common ploy in the commission of a crime.
And we also know that, in this case, absinthe did not make the heart grow fonder.
(LAUGHTER)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, that`s for sure.
MARSHALL: I mean, she kicked him in the groin. You know, he was angry at her for leaning on a man. But I think, without available forensic evidence, what we really have to do is look to what we already know about these kinds of crimes.
And that is that, of all men who are victims of homicide, only 2.8 percent are killed by a wife or girlfriend. On the other hand, almost 20 percent of all murder victims are killed by multiple perpetrators, meaning that more than one person is involved in the commission of the crime.
And of those perpetrators, there is a 1 in 3 chance that they`ll be between the ages of 18 and 24. And to my mind, those are really amazing statistics. And I think that we also have to consider the possibility that someone may have wanted to murder the groom, because he didn`t -- they didn`t want him to ID them as part of a crime.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Right. And we have to point out that CNN hasn`t been able to confirm any of these facts. The FBI just isn`t talking. And there are no suspects at this point.
But let`s go to Jason Oshins, defense attorney. There was another report today, which we haven`t been able to confirm, that Clete Hyman also heard loud voices in a foreign language.
Now, is that a problem, you think, for the Russian men who are from New York -- they`re of Russian descent -- or, given it`s an international trip, with so many people from all over the world, that doesn`t narrow it at all.
OSHINS: Well, Jane, you`ve certainly hit on a couple of quality points, the fact that, a, it`s an international ship in international waters. You`ve got Turkey, Greece.
And it`s a moving target. The ship is moving constantly, thousands of people coming in and off. You`ve got the two Russian nationals. You`ve got a gentleman out in California that are potential targets that the FBI - - and, of course, everyone is being so tight-lipped about the whole thing, the families, the FBI. No one wants to jeopardize anything and the potential to come up with the solution to what occurred, the mystery to this groom.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And, of course, this brings us to Mary Fulginiti, former prosecutor. Why isn`t the FBI talking? Why aren`t they holding news conferences on a regular basis?
Plenty of crimes -- we`ve all covered them as reporters -- we get updates. Why no updates? The whole world`s wondering. It`s such a mystery. And, of course, because it`s a mystery, it`s especially compelling to people.
FULGINITI: You know, it is compelling. But you have to understand. I was a former federal prosecutor for many years. And I worked closely with the FBI on several investigations and prosecutions.
I can assure you, in not one of those investigations or prosecutions did we publicly disclose our investigative results while we were investigating the crime. And there`s a reason for it, Jane.
What they`re trying to do here, which is most important, is to maintain the credibility and the integrity of this investigation. Why? They don`t want to compromise witnesses. They certainly don`t want to compromise evidence. And they don`t want to burden potential leads that could help them...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I understand this, but, you know, also, there`s the possibility that somebody sees something and has some information. And because there`s so much speculation -- I think it`s really harmful, probably more so, to the families to hear everybody -- and it`s not just us, everybody, newspapers, television, radio, everybody`s talking about this case, because of the information vacuum.
FULGINITI: You know, they are, because there`s a heightened public interest in this particular case. But I have to say, at the end of the day, their philosophy, where they really don`t speak publicly much about their investigations, until they`re in a courtroom, which is really the only time that the public is truly entitled to hear what the evidence is, is the better practice.
Why? Because, as we hear Clete Hyman, even his story has been evolving, and it`s evolving after he hears information that other people are saying on television.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Mary, we have to wrap. But I want to ask you a yes or no question. Do you think the FBI is watching this? Do you think they feel the pressure to solve this?
FULGINITI: Oh, yes, definitely. They definitely do.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Thank you for that.
Up next, a monster, some call him a mutant, social sewage, finally meeting justice, as a community in Kansas tries to move on. Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m just kind of choked up, because it`s -- I`ve known him for so long.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Caroline Antonni (ph) is a long-time family friend. Her hardware store is located next to the Smiths` liquor store in Cos Cob, where she says George Jr. was being groomed to take over the business.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They wanted the son to run the store. I mean, that was going to be his future.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEFF DAVIS, MOTHER WAS BTK`S LAST VICTIM: For the last 5,326 days, I have wondered what it would be like to confront the walking cesspool that took my mother`s precious life. Throughout that time, I always envisioned this day as being one for avenging the past. I could think of nothing but savoring the bittersweet taste of revenge as justice is served upon this social sewage here before us today.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell filling in for Nancy Grace.
Judgment day in Kansas for the notorious BTK Killer, Dennis Rader, sentenced today to life in prison for killing 10 people over 17 years. The judge handing down the sentence after emotional testimony from relatives of his victims and some really bizarre testimony from the serial killer himself.
Tonight, in Wichita, Kansas, Jeff Davis, whose mother was Rader`s last victim, and who spoke in court today. But first, to KAKE anchor-reporter Larry Hatteberg, who has spoken to the serial killer and who was in court today.
Larry, what was that like?
LARRY HATTEBERG, KAKE-TV ANCHOR-REPORTER: Well, it was for first time we saw Dennis Rader lose control. And what we saw today in the courtroom were the families in control. Dennis Rader is basically no more.
As he entered the courtroom today, you could just feel the tension in the courtroom, because everybody knew that this was the day that the families were going to be able to finally address this man that has caused so much hurt for over 30 years to so many families.
And address them they did. And it was absolutely riveting in the courtroom. You`re going have Jeff Davis in just a minute. His testimony, talking directly to Dennis Rader, had the courtroom absolutely -- you could hear a pin drop in there. And everybody was watching Rader for his reaction.
For these 30 years, Rader has been in control. Today, he totally lost control. And in the courtroom, Dennis Rader became a parody of himself. We really saw Dennis Rader for who he really is.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. You`re absolutely right. It was so inappropriate on so many levels, it`s even hard to know where to begin. Perhaps we should begin by hearing from him. Let`s hear what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DENNIS RADER, CONFESSED BTK KILLER: Thanks. I can`t believe the people that have helped me on this, starting with -- I think the youth society, have to -- even though I`m a criminal, I think you to appreciate the police department. They`ve done a lot of work.
Even though it took a long time, they gathered evidence, they had evidence. When they got their key suspect, they zeroed in on him very rapidly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: What a bizarre statement, a long and rambling one.
Jeff Davis, first of all, thank you so much for joining us tonight. I know your mother, the last victim, this has got to be an emotionally draining day for you. So we really appreciate you taking the time. It`s been a long day.
But what was it like? Now, you apparently got up with some of the other family members when he began to speak and then left. But you saw it on a feed, this bizarre, outlandish, rambling statement. Any thoughts?
JEFF DAVIS, MOTHER VICTIM OF BTK KILLER: At this point, I didn`t think there was anything he could do to surprise me. But that kind of did. I guess, I don`t think it`s a mental health term, but I would paraphrase it as a total narcissistic, anti-social personality meltdown.
As Larry said, he knew that the show was over, that the control was gone. And his world has revolved around control. That was the reason he killed his people. That`s how he could have his sexual thrills, because it was the control. And it was stripped away from him.
And today, in a very blatant and merciless way, we did our part to take that control away from him. And I`m telling you, it was to the point -- and I have been his biggest critic and no one -- everyone in the world knows how much I loathe and cannot stand and hate that individual, but by the time he was through rambling that diatribe, I almost felt pity for him. He just -- he is so far gone that I expected him to start talking to himself any minute.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You are so right. He was so far gone, and especially when he starts sort of thanking the police department and saying, "Well, they did a great job, even though I wore a black hat and they wore a white hat."
I mean, it was so beyond comprehension.
DAVIS: I know.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Everybody`s sitting there, their jaws are open. Here we are, a group of people who have covered so many terrible crimes and yet, even for hardened reporters, it`s mind-boggling, mind-boggling.
Now, maybe I could go to Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, to try to give us some insight, because I guess you would say, in clinical terms, lack of affect?
MARSHALL: Yes. I mean, that`s a good word. Psychopaths -- and, believe it or not, they make up about 1 percent of the male population -- they suffer from a severe under-arousal of emotions, anxiety and sexuality. And that`s why they only relate on the basis of power rather than affection.
That`s why they use aggression to jumpstart their sexuality. And that`s why they have something we call verbal efacie (ph), meaning that they use the words that you and I might use, but they don`t have the same meanings attached to those words. Like the BTK Killer would say something like, "I comforted my victim before killing her." That word "comfort" doesn`t mean the same thing that it does to you and to me. It means something in a very detached sense.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Absolutely. I mean, we`re looking at him doing V- signs, and chuckling, and he`s talking about PowerPoint presentations. I think, of all of the things that really just totally startled me, he`s critiquing in detail a PowerPoint presentation, like he`s some kind of salesman pitching a product. I mean, it`s beyond comprehension.
Jason Oshins, the first word that we think of probably when we think of this guy is wacko, sicko. And yet, you know as a defense attorney that his own attorney said that they conducted a psychological analysis of him and they found no basis to plead insanity, not that we`d want him to get away with an insanity plea. But what is the legal distinction there?
OSHINS: Well, I don`t think insanity was an option. I mean, clearly he operated in society for over 17 years while he was committing these crimes. So the fact that he was a sociopath doesn`t mean that the insanity defense was something that was out there. He was clearly in control and aware of everything that he was doing.
In fact, as Mr. Davis said, he was the ultimate narcissist. I mean, he got off on being in control of everything. And that final sort of rambling dissertation was just a disconnect of his life right there.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. And when we come back, I think we`ll go back to Jeff Davis and ask him how -- it`s a complicated question -- but how could this man, this lunatic, this monster, possibly have gotten away with all of these crimes for so many years?
To tonight`s "All-Points Bulletin." FBI and law enforcement across the country on the lookout for Bernabe Roman, wanted in connection with the murder of Jose Gomez Salinas back in 1997.
Bernabe, 30 years old, about 5`3", 145 pounds, black hair, black eyes, armed, dangerous. If you have any information on Bernabe Roman, contact the FBI, 205-326-6166.
Local news next for some of you, but we will be right back. And remember, more live coverage and analysis of the BTK killer, sentencing 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern on Court TV`s "Closing Arguments." Analysis tomorrow.
Please stay with us as we remember Lance Corporal Adam J. Strain, 20, an American hero.
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VELEZ-MITCHELL: We at NANCY GRACE want very much to help, in our way, solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Tonight, take a look at Timothy Smart, 30 years old. He disappeared from Elizabethtown, North Carolina, in July 1995 when he was just 20. After more than 10 years, police are still totally baffled by this case.
If you have any information on Timothy Smart, please call the Carole Sund Carrington Foundation toll-free at 1-888-813-8389. Please help us find him.
And we continue to try to understand this monster, this mutant known as the BTK serial killer. Let`s go back to Larry Hatteberg, who has covered this from the very beginning and who actually interviewed this man, Dennis Rader.
I think everybody wants to know -- and obviously, it`s an overly simplistic question for the time we have -- but how he did get away with it since 1974?
HATTEBERG: He got away with it because he was like the neighbor next door. You know, we expect a serial killer to look like a monster, to look like a serial killer. Dennis Rader didn`t.
He was able to be a part of us, to be the guy next door, in essence. He blended in. He was shopping with us. He was going to the movies with us.
And that`s the terrifying thing about a guy like Dennis Rader. He blended so well that we didn`t notice him at all. It was all part of his act. And that`s what makes Dennis Rader so scary.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jeff Davis, in our final seconds, is there closure? Is there moving on? Is there healing, or is that just a lot of hard work ahead?
DAVIS: Oh, it`s a relative win. We`ll have resolution. We`ll have satisfaction in knowing that the animal will spend his life as an animal in a cage.
We have answers. And we can go on from here. It`s not going to be closed. It`s only closed if the people that you lost come back, and that`s not an option. But we resolve and some justice, and that will keep me warm at night, knowing what happened to him.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jeff, thank you. And God bless.
I would like to thank all the guests on the show tonight for their insights. And thanks to all of you at home for keeping track of these really important cases right along with us. And I also want to thank the staff right here at the NANCY GRACE show. They are working there hard, behind the scenes in the control room. What an amazing, talented, smart, funny group of people. They`re great.
Coming up, headlines from around the world. "Larry King" on CNN. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell filling in for Nancy Grace. Hope to see you here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp. Until then, have a great night.
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