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Pat Robertson's Remarks on Hugo Chavez; Bill Clinton in Africa; Olivia Newton John's Boyfriend Still Missing; Bush Reiterates Stance on Iraq; Birth Trauma; Dream Composition

Aired August 23, 2005 - 19:00   ET


HEIDI COLLINS, GUEST HOST: Good evening, everybody.
Man of God Pat Robertson calls for the killing of Hugo Chavez. It's 7:00 p.m. on the East Coast, 4:00 p.m. in the West. 360 starts now.


ANNOUNCER: Conservative Christian broadcaster Pat Robertson, stirring controversy, calling on the U.S. to assassinate Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez. Venezuelan officials respond, calling Robertson a terrorist and question his Christianity.

Five and a half years after leaving office, former President Bill Clinton is on a mission. Tonight, 360 MD Dr. Sanjay Gupta hits the road and heads to Africa with the 42nd president.

BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I want to save as many kids as I can, give as many people a chance to live their dreams.

ANNOUNCER: "Grease" superstar Olivia Newton-John's desperate plea. Her longtime boyfriend vanishes without a trace on a fishing trip. And she's asking for your help. Tonight, a fishing accident, or something more sinister?

And what do your dreams really mean? Can you solve problems, get ideas and inspiration while you sleep? Tonight, how what happens in your sleeping mind could mean a lot more than just a dream.

Live, from the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, this is ANDERSON COOPER 360.


COLLINS: Good evening, everybody. I'm Heidi Collins. Anderson is off tonight.

Here are some of the questions we'll be looking at over the next hour.

What would lead a man of God like Pat Robertson to call for the killing of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez? And why would this be the kind of attention Chavez might want?

Why did it take seven weeks for the media to notice Olivia Newton-John's boyfriend was missing?

And are there long-term negative effects for men who are in the delivery room when their wives give birth?

We'll get to all of them. But we begin tonight with a man who is no stranger to controversy -- Pat Robertson, the founder of the Christian Coalition, and one-time presidential candidate. Robertson is now calling for the U.S. to assassinate a head of state.

CNN's Rick Sanchez reports.



RICK SANCHEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Seemingly forsaking one of the Ten Commandments about not killing, evangelist Pat Robertson is suggesting the U.S. assassinate Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez.

ROBERTSON: He has destroyed the Venezuelan economy and he is going to make that a launching pad for communist infiltration and Muslim extremism all over the continent. You know, I don't know about this doctrine of assassination, but if he thinks we're trying to assassinate him, I think we really ought to go ahead and do it.

SANCHEZ: Robertson made his comment after a lengthy report seen on the program THE 700 CLUB, on the Christian Broadcasting Network. The report examined, among other things, Chavez's anti-U.S. rhetoric, and his relationship with Cuba's Fidel Castro. It's a relationship that has long rankled U.S. officials. Chavez has visited Cuba four times in the past nine months, including a trip this weekend where he and Castro called U.S. policy "harmful to the world."

But while the Bush administration has criticized Chavez in the past, today they clearly distanced themselves from any talk of assassination.

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Certainly it's against the law. Our department doesn't do that type of thing. He's a private citizen. Private citizens say all kinds of things all the time.

SANCHEZ: In a hastily called news conference, the top Venezuelan representative to the U.S. disagreed with Rumsfeld's characterization.

BERNARDO ALVAREZ, AMBASSADOR OF VENEZUELA: Mr. Robertson is, of course, not ordinary private citizen.

SANCHEZ: In 1998, Pat Robertson ran for president. Alvarez says his Christian television network boasts huge audiences. Venezuelan diplomats say they're concerned.

ALVAREZ: Pat Robertson's statement must be condemned in the strongest terms by the Bush administration, and we are concerned about the safety of our president.

SANCHEZ: During his broadcast, Robertson justified his call to assassinate Chavez by comparing it to the costly war in Iraq.

ROBERTSON: We don't need another $200 billion war to get rid of one, you know, strong-armed dictator. It's a whole lot easier to have some of the covert operatives do the job and then get it over with.

SANCHEZ: On the Web, Robertson's comments were strongly criticized even by conservative blogs, like The author writes: "What strikes me most is his," Robertson's, "similarity to the mullahs of Iran, who issued a fatwa for the assassination of Salman Rushdie, and the Islamists who preach hate and terror under the cloak of religion."

The 75-year-old televangelist has had a history of controversial comments. In 1992, Robertson wrote that "feminism encourages women to leave their husbands and become lesbians."

Once asked about so-called activist judges, Robertson intimated they are a greater threat to America than "bearded terrorists who fly into buildings."

He also suggested setting off a small nuke at the State Department in order to shake things up, but a couple days later said he didn't mean it.

In 1998, he also warned that terrorist bombs, earthquakes, tornadoes and possibly a meteor could strike Orlando, Florida, in biblical vengeance for "Gay Days" at Disneyworld.

In 2001, he offended many Muslims as well, when he once said Islam was not a religion of peace.


SANCHEZ: We were waiting for a comment throughout the day, and it finally came. Late this afternoon, Chavez responded for the very first time to Robertson's remarks. He said he had never heard of Robertson. And as far as the call for his assassination, quote, he said, "it doesn't matter to me."

Now, Chavez was supposed to visit the U.N. next month. Venezuelan officials are confident that President Bush will defend Robertson -- or I should say, condemn Robertson's remarks before that trip.

COLLINS: And what if President Bush doesn't condemn those remarks?

SANCHEZ: Interesting, that there may be some gamesmanship taking place here while diplomacy is taking place at the same time. And it's probably no coincidence that Chavez spent a little extra time talking to Fidel Castro today, a couple of extra hours in fact.

COLLINS: One of his mentors. All right, Rick Sanchez, thank you.

SANCHEZ: Thank you.

COLLINS: Like Robertson, Chavez is known to make shocking statements. And in particular, it's his comments about the U.S. that draw the most attention, which may be exactly what he wants to do.

CNN's Andrea Koppel explains.


ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Hugo Chavez put President Bush on trial this month, a mock trial. Chavez says the U.S. president was guilty of imperialism.

It's become a familiar refrain from the Venezuelan president. Like his close ally, Fidel Castro, a charismatic strongman with a flare for the dramatic, eager to portray himself as Latin America's David to the United States' Goliath.

MICHAEL SHIFTER, INTER-AMERICAN DIALOGUE: He has a vision of what he calls a Bolivarian revolution, which is named after the independence hero Simon Bolivar in Latin America, to try to create a unified Latin America in solidarity, to oppose the United States.

KOPPEL: And Chavez is broadcasting that message throughout the region on a new Venezuelan satellite TV network, dedicated to promoting anti-U.S. propaganda.

Chavez told CNN last year he blamed the Bush administration for a failed coup attempt in 2002. And while the U.S. denied any involvement, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice did not mince words during her confirmation hearing.

CONDOLEEZZA RICE, SECRETARY OF STATE: I think that we have to view at this point the government of Venezuela as a negative force in the region.

KOPPEL: That sparked a war of words between the U.S. and Chavez, the Venezuelan leader hitting below the belt with a sexual slur against Rice.

SHIFTER: He knows that that's what most irritates U.S. officials, what also draws out a response which he thrives on.

KOPPEL: But these days, Chavez is using more than rhetoric. He's spending Venezuela's vast oil wealth to support other leftist leaders in the hemisphere, like in Bolivia, undermining U.S. efforts to spread democracy. He is courting oil-hungry countries like China and sworn U.S. enemies like Iran. And just this month, he suspended cooperation on counter-narcotics with the U.S.

(on camera): But far more troubling for the Bush administration, Chavez's latest threat, to cut off Venezuelan oil exports, which account for about 10 to 15 percent of U.S. oil imports, hitting the U.S. where he knows it would hurt most.

Andrea Koppel, CNN, at the State Department.


COLLINS: My next guest believes Robertson's call to assassinate Chavez may actually help the Venezuelan president. Tim Padgett is "Time" magazine's Miami-Latin American bureau chief. He joins me now from Miami. Tim, this could possibly be the best thing that could have actually happened to Chavez?

TIM PADGETT, "TIME" MAGAZINE: Well, I mean, I think Pat Robertson last night did Hugo Chavez a tremendous favor, despite the fact that his comments about assassination were astonishing, if not appalling.

Chavez, like Fidel Castro, his mentor, has always thrived on conflict with the United States. And so, when a leader of the right- wing Christian establishment that is so closely aligned with President Bush, essentially puts out a hit contract on Chavez, it only stands to reason that it's going to raise his stature as an anti- Yankee icon, not only in Venezuela and Latin America, but around the world.

COLLINS: That being said, the State Department, of course, says that Robertson's remarks do not represent the views of the United States or the Bush administration. Is that enough? Do people understand that?

PADGETT: I don't think so at this point. One of the reasons that Chavez has been so successful with this conflict strategy with the United States is that it comes at time when America's stock and credibility in Latin America is at an unusually low ebb for two reasons, really. One being that capitalist reforms in Latin America are widely perceived by people down there as having just widened, really, the gap between rich and poor. And also there's a sort of a resentful feeling that the Bush administration has simply ignored Latin America ever since 9/11. And so when Chavez goes on his anti- U.S. rants it actually plays well in Latin America.

So given the fact that America's credibility is at a low ebb in Latin America I think that the Bush administration is going to have to do a lot more and issue a much harsher condemnation of Robertson's comments than to just say it's inappropriate.

COLLINS: Tim Padgett from "Time" magazine. Thank you.

Next on 360, the Olivia Newton-John's missing boyfriend mystery. Eyewitness accounts now saying they saw Patrick McDermott leaving the boat after it docked. We'll talk to the marina's manager.

And former President Bill Clinton on the road calling for action. 360 M.D. Dr. Sanjay Gupta hitched a ride. Find out how the president's newest cause has come up.

And later, are some fathers who watch the birth of their children doing long-term damage? We'll talk to a doctor who says it's true.


COLLINS: Today President Bush took a break from his vacation to answer questions about the mission in Iraq, the Iraqi constitution, and a mother named Cindy Sheehan.

CNN's Dana Bash reports. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)


DANA BASH, CNN REPORTER (voice over): The president gave no hint he'll meet again with Cindy Sheehan, but did offer a sharp rebuttal to her "bring the troops home now" message.

BUSH: I think immediate withdrawal from Iraq would be a mistake. I think those who advocate immediate withdrawal from not only Iraq, but the Middle East, would be -- are advocating a policy that would weaken the United States.

BASH: But Bush aides concede her Crawford vigil garnered much more attention than they anticipated among an increasingly anxious public and they're trying to beat it back.

BUSH: I understand her anguish. I've met with a lot of families. She doesn't represent the view of a lot of the families I met with.

BASH: Protesters from Sheehan's anti-war group continue to follow the president. Here in Idaho, Melanie House, who lost her husband in Iraq.

MELANIE HOUSE, HUSBAND KILLED IN IRAQ: I just really want to know why. Why my husband had to die. For what reason? I really want the truth from President Bush.

BASH: Another key challenge for the White House, amid all of the violence they had been able to hold public support for Iraq by touting clear progress towards democracy -- like elections. The political storyline now, missed deadlines and delays, as differing factions search for consensus on a constitution.

ANA MARIA ARUMI, POLLSTER: Will the constitution itself actually create stability? I think that the public has a fair amount of doubt on those regards.

BASH: The president pointed to America's own history and said, it's not easy.

BUSH: First of all, the fact that they're even writing a constitution is vastly different from living under the iron hand of a dictator.

BASH: And he challenged Iraq's Sunnis, a minority group yet to sign off on a draft constitution, to make a choice.

BUSH: Do they want to live in a society that's free? Or do they want to live in violence?


BASH (on camera): The president may not meet with Cindy Sheehan again, but he does have more than two hours on his schedule here in Idaho tomorrow to meet with families from around the country whose loved one's were killed in action.


COLLINS: Dana Bash, thank you.

Erica Hill from HEADLINE NEWS now, joining us with some of the other stories we're following tonight.

ERICA HILL, CNNHN ANCHOR: Hi, Heidi. Nice to see you.

Tonight we start off with some interesting information here. The woman whose accused -- whose son, that is, accused singer Michael Jackson of child molestation, now in trouble with the law. She's accused of fraudulently obtaining welfare benefits. Today she was charged with five felony counts. And the mother, you may recall, was a key witness in the prosecution's failed case against Michael Jackson. And during that trial, Jackson's attorney repeatedly brought up these fraud allegations to discredit her.

We have across the country, existing home sales slowing down, but not by much. Today the National Association of Realtors reported the pace of sales in July was the third highest ever, but that's actually down 2.6 percent from the record pace in June.

Now meantime, one thing that's not slowing down, the obesity rate. It's climbing. The advocacy group Trust for America's Health said last year almost a quarter of all U.S. adults were obese. That's up .8 percent from the year before. There's only one state that didn't see an increase in the number of obese residents, Oregon. Its obesity rate, 21 percent, remained unchanged.

Well here's a way to maybe work off a few calories. In Brussels, Belgium, a nun who got a little too much exercise got an earful from her mother superior. Now you're looking at a picture of a 29-year-old nun. She was spotted dancing wildly with a missionary during the Catholic World Youth Day in Germany this past weekend. She told a Belgian paper, her mother superior later told her to watch out, and bear in mind she represents their community. Well the nun says, Heidi, she was simply carried away.

COLLINS: Carried away. Wild dancing.

HILL: She's moved.

COLLINS: All right, Erica. Thanks. We'll see you again in about 30 minutes.

Coming up on 360, what happened to Olivia Newton-John's boyfriend? Conflicting statements about the fishing trip where he was last seen.

And delivery room dilemma. Should fathers watch the birth of their babies? Why one doctor says, it might not be such a good idea.

But next -- travels with Bill. 360 M.D. Dr. Sanjay Gupta goes continent hopping with the former president and finds out about his new mission. We'll tell what you it is, after this.


COLLINS: In our "World in 360" tonight we focus on an elite club, that of ex-U.S. presidents. The youngest among them, former President Bill Clinton was known for many things, one of which, was his relentless energy while in office.

But Clinton has not slowed down since he left the White House four-and-a-half years ago. He is touring the world as a tireless fighter against disease and social ills.

360 M.D. Sanjay Gupta caught up with Clinton in Kenya.


DR. SANJA GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (on camera): What do you miss most about being president?



CLINTON: Yes. I loved the job. I loved feeling that even on the bad days and the difficult times we could always get something good done. You know, I loved living in the White House and riding on Air Force One and all that, but I knew it would come to an end. I loved the job. I thought it was something I was well-suited for.

GUPTA (voice-over): After leaving Washington, former President Bill Clinton opened his offices in Harlem, hoping to reinvigorate the neighborhood. For a time, he flirted with a career in television, first working alongside political foe Bob Dole, for some "60 Minutes" debates.

There was even talk of having his own talk show. He wrote his memoirs and he formally opened his presidential library in Little Rock, Arkansas. Earlier this year he teamed up with another former presdient, George H.W. Bush, raising money for victims of the devastating Asian tsunami, but he says nothing has captured his attention like the area of public health.

CLINTON: Eight thousand people die of AIDS every day, which means we have a tsunami every month.

GUPTA: His focus -- AIDS around the world; obesity at home.

(on camera): Why health? You know, why not maybe Middle East peace or something else altogether?

CLINTON: Well, I don't have anything like the potential I have in this AIDS area, where I can move into a vacuum, organize things, bring things together and all of a sudden two years later, 110,000 people are getting the medicine who weren't getting it before. And in two years from now, we'll have two million people or more who weren't getting it before.

GUPTA (voice-over): The interest in AIDS isn't new.

QUESTION: What are you going to do about AIDS?

CLINTON: I feel your pain!

GUPTA: I feel your pain was coined when Clinton dueled with an AIDS activist and heckler at a campaign event in 1992, during his initial run for the presidency.

And he was the first politician to call AIDS a threat to the stability of the world's most fragile democracies.

(on camera): Fighting AIDS is your life's work. Was there a sentinel moment for you when that became true for you personally?

CLINTON: Kind of the brush with death I had maybe had the biggest impact of all; going through the health problems I did. I realize that one more time I've been given another chance and I just wanted to make the most of it.

So, I asked myself you know, what do you really, really want to do? And the answer kept coming up you know, I want to save as many kids as I can, give as many people a chance to live their dreams as I have. I think I'd be kidding myself if I didn't admit that the intensity I feel about this was certainly affected by my illness.

GUPTA: All ex-presidents get a pension. Bill Clinton gets Secret Service protection for life, but everyone who follows will only be guarded for 10 years. Plus, they get a lifetime of free postage. But other than that, there isn't exactly a play book on how to be an ex- president.

Gerald Ford spent much of his time lecturing around the country.

Ronald Reagan continued to make international appearances.

George Bush retired to private life.

In addition to Habitat for Humanity, Jimmy Carter took on global peace projects and public health issues. And that's a model Bill Clinton said he wanted to follow; eventually shaping his own agenda.

JOHN KING, CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: There is a freedom an ex-president has to say certain things, to challenge other governments, to even challenge your own government.

GUPTA: His challenge is to learn how to enjoy being an ex- president.

CLINTON: I like a lot of things about having a private life again. I like being able to have dinner with friends, you know? I like being able to take a little extra time to go shopping on these trips. I like being able to go out to a movie and wander around in a book store and all of that. So, there are a lot of things that I like about this. I like being able to take a half-day off if I want and play my saxophone.

GUPTA: Maybe a half-day off, but he still has plenty more to do.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN, East Africa.


ANNOUNCER: "Grease" superstar Olivia Newton-John's desperate plea: Her long-time boyfriend vanishing without a trace on a fishing trip and she's asking for your help. Tonight, a fishing accident or something more sinister?

And what do your dreams really mean? Can you solve problems, get ideas and inspiration while you sleep? Tonight, how what happens in your sleeping mind could mean a lot more than just a dream.

360 continues.


COLLINS: For decades, Olivia Newton-John was a household name. She starred in the movie "Grease," her songs went platinum, and she attracted fans by the millions.

We've not heard from Olivia Newton-John in a while, but tonight she is making news and it's about this man, her long-time boyfriend Patrick McDermott. On June 30, he went on an overnight fishing trip off San Pedro, California, with 22 other passengers. They returned home; he did not.

McDermott's boat left from the San Pedro Marina, and Frank Liversedge is the manager of that marina. I talked with him earlier.


COLLINS: Mr. Liversedge, as far as you know, when was the last time any of the three crew members or the 22 other passengers, for that matter, remember seeing Patrick McDermott?

FRANK LIVERSEDGE, MANAGER, SAN PEDRO MARINA: Some of the passengers claim that they saw him getting off the boat at the end of the trip.

COLLINS: And this was an overnight trip. So clearly, it seems obvious that in all of the time that they spent together on the boat, that maybe someone, if not a passenger, maybe one of the crew members would have had a chance to speak with Mr. McDermott?

LIVERSEDGE: Several of the passengers indicated to the Coast Guard in depositions, I believe, that they did speak with him during the trip. The crew would have no reason to speak to him, other than the business of the boat, gaffing fish, ordering food, and things like that. COLLINS: Explain to us a little bit, if you would, about the galley bill. I know that on the return trip on a deep sea fishing trip you usually have to pay this galley bill for food and for services on the boat. That happens just before returning to dock. Right?

LIVERSEDGE: Correct. It happens about three miles out from the lighthouse. That puts it about an hour before the boat actually docks, maybe. It takes a few minutes to accomplish. All of the people are up. They don't go back to bed. They're not allowed to go back to bed. They get up, pay their bills. Assemble their tackle, and get ready to depart the boat.

COLLINS: And Patrick McDermott paid the galley bill. Correct?


COLLINS: Did you happen to see that bill, by any chance?


COLLINS: You saw a signature of his? Was there a time on that as well?

LIVERSEDGE: I did not see a signature. I didn't see a time. I saw an indication made by the galley cook that his bill was paid.

COLLINS: So after he signed for that, and paid his bill is there any chance he could have gotten off the boat before returning to the dock?

LIVERSEDGE: The odds are a million to one that he could do that without being detected.

COLLINS: Without one of the other passengers or crew members seeing him.


COLLINS: So what do you think happened to Patrick McDermott?

LIVERSEDGE: I think he came back and got off of the boat at my landing, and after that, I don't know where the gentleman is.

COLLINS: Do you find it strange, though, that his bag and his possessions were, in fact, left on one of the boats at your marina, and then he just went away without them?

LIVERSEDGE: Absolutely. Very, very strange.

COLLINS: Any reason to suspect some sort of foul play here?

LIVERSEDGE: Not in the slightest.


COLLINS: Frank Liversledge from the San Pedro Marina there. With us on the phone, from San Pedro, is Petty Officer Prentice Danner. He is with the United States Coast Guard searching for McDermott. Petty Officer Danner, we know that McDermott actually signed the passenger manifest when he got on the boat. What's the protocol then, for when passengers leave?

PETTY OFC. PRENTICE DANNER, COAST GUARD: It is a federal law that passengers boarding commercial vessels like that, that they are required to have a manifest checking the passengers on board, and off board. So, yes, it is a federal stipulation.

COLLINS: Who normally checks that manifest? Should that have been the captain of the vessel?

DANNER: It should be the person in charge of the boat. Which generally would be the captain of the vessel, yes, ma'am.

COLLINS: Any idea why -- I mean, obviously it was not checked. Correct?

DANNER: Ma'am I have no idea. Our investigator -- that's part of our investigation. We're looking at the entire incident, from when the boat departed until it returned, and up until the point where Mr. McDermott was reported to the Coast Guard as missing and where his vehicle was discovered in the parking lot. All of that is being investigated and I'm not positive of the details.

COLLINS: Well I do understand that you're interviewing the other passengers, crew and family. And as we've mentioned, there were 22 other passengers. Seems like somebody would know something. Any idea how long this investigation will last?

DANNER: No, ma'am. The investigation will be open until Mr. McDermott is found. That's the way a normal investigation goes. The investigation is open until it's closed.

COLLINS: Of course. And as you know, the family reported McDermott missing on July 6. That's a week after the fishing trip, but his disappearance wasn't actually made public until this very week. If the public was possibly alerted sooner, do you think that would have helped the investigation at all?

DANNER: Possibly, but the missing persons case was made public on the 9th of August via Coast Guard press release. It's just the Olivia Newton-John tie to Mr. McDermott was not made until this week.


DANNER: But there was a release that went over the wires on the missing person.

COLLINS: August 9, you say. All right. Petty Officer Prentice Danner, thanks for your information tonight.

DANNER: You're welcome, ma'am.

COLLINS: Olivia Newton-John was once one of the most famous people in the world. She was a superstar, a celebrity and a cancer survivor. Tonight, facing other personal tragedies, she is back in the spotlight again.

CNN's Brook Anderson has more.


BROOKE ANDERSON, CNN ANCHOR (voice over): Australia's golden girl became America's sweetheart with her hit album, Have You Never Been Mellow. Olivia Newton-John's clean cut looks and sweet voice brought two big hits right from the get-go.

But it was her first American film that turned her into a true star, and had us dreaming of summer nights at the drive in. It was the summer of '78 and "Grease" was the word, grossing nearly 350 million worldwide and teaming her up with John Travolta. But that box office magic didn't last. Her next film Xanadu was a flop and Olivia went back to doing what she did best, making music.

"Physical" hit the top of the charts, but it also became the high point of her career. She took a break, married her longtime boyfriend, dancer Matt Lattanzi, had a daughter, Chloe, and started a clothing line called Koala Blue, which eventually went bust and forced her into bankruptcy. But she never left her music completely behind. She released a series of albums between 1988 and 1992. It was while she was promoting one of those albums Back to Basics, that she was diagnosed with breast cancer. But shortly after she recovered, her marriage collapsed. And in 1995, they divorced.

If you feel like you haven't heard from her lately, you haven't been listening hard enough. She's still making music, releasing a seemingly nonstop supply of new CDs starting with Back With a Heart in 1998, tours of the U.S., Australia and Japan, an opening night performance at the Sydney Olympics, a series of guest-starring roles in small films and countless TV appearances, mostly to talk about surviving breast cancer.

And earlier this year, another CD, this one called Gold. A look back at her greatest hits.

She lives on her ranches, one in Malibu, one in Australia, with her horses and her dogs. Nine years ago she met photographer Patrick McDermott. They've been together ever since, until just seven weeks ago when Patrick suddenly just vanished.


COLLINS: That was CNN's Brooke Anderson tonight.

360 next, we know childbirth can be difficult for women, of course. But what about men? Can time in the delivery room cause problems later? You may be surprised.

Also tonight -- the stuff of dreams. How some people use them as a springboard for creativity. And a little later, some may say R.E.M.s Michael Stipe is one of the greatest rock composers, but how does he rank when it comes to body parts? We'll explain.


COLLINS: While new life is a beautiful thing, the actual birth has been known to make some people faint. And for some men, being in the delivery room could affect what happens in the bedroom.

Joining me from Boston is Dr. Keith Ablow, a forensic psychiatrist, who wrote about this delivery room trauma for today's "New York Times."

Doctor, by most accounts, people would say childbirth is beautiful and natural. But some of your male patients actually tell you otherwise. They call it a possible anti-aphrodisiac. How so?

DR. KEITH ABLOW, NEW YORK TIMES CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I'm really reporting from the front lines of who comes to my office. And a number of men come in rather sheepishly, and report to me with a little coaxing that the presence, their presence in the delivery suite, witnessing, well, sometimes gruesome scenes of their wives giving birth, that they can't quite get it out of their minds, and that it actually interferes with them seeing their wives as passionate beings. It interferes with the romance.

COLLINS: But actually -- post-traumatic stress? That's what some men have reported to you?

ABLOW: That's true. This is, by the way, I believe this affects a vast minority of men, and to reach the level of true post-traumatic stress disorder I think is a rare thing. But yes, recurrent and intrusive visions of these things, an inability to get the thought out of your mind.

We're talking, after all, about a quaint political and sensitive notion that has become institutionalized. So there's no way a man can say he's not going to be there, right? And some men aren't prepared. You know, sometimes it's fairly bloody what they see. You have doctors saying, do you want to cut the umbilical cord? Even I didn't do that, and I'm a doctor.

COLLINS: Well, I mean, obviously, you're male, I'm female. I have kids, you have kids. So I don't want to attack here or anything, but I guess you just have to decide what's right for you, as with many of these cases. And especially when we're talking about -- I mean, there is blood and all of that stuff that actually happens. But do you think that these people and these men you're talking about are ready for children?

ABLOW: Well, you know, I think they are ready for children, I just don't know if they're ready to see the child come into the world. You know, my sister's an oral surgeon. She says, I don't even let spouses watch me extract teeth, let alone take a baby out of the womb. Some men are just... COLLINS: Well, that's a little different, isn't it? I mean, you made this baby with this other person, right?

ABLOW: See, that's the emotional component. But the way it looks, we're talking about sexual beings. I'm just saying, look, if women want to preserve the romance in their lives -- and many do -- you got to at least think with your spouse, since there is a minority of men who have this reaction, how should we approach it? That's all.

COLLINS: All right. I want to include this that you say in your piece. "The symptoms, as my patients have reported, include recurrent and intrusive distressing recollections of the event, and efforts to avoid recalling it."

How can men block out these images and find their wives and girlfriends attractive again? By the way, I'm in complete denial about all of this.

ABLOW: Well, I'll help you with that. That's my job as a psychiatrist.

But time heals the vast majority of men in this regard, and it doesn't even touch the vast majority of men. But there are men who simply say it was never the same for me. I'm here just as the messenger, so you won't shoot me, but some men sort of say, look, I'm sorry, but I've never been able to see my wife in the same light again. It's just the truth. I don't know what we should do. I think we should study it, find out how pervasive it is, and find out if we ought to maybe come up with a questionnaire that suggests whether men at risk can be identified.

COLLINS: All right, and you did say the vast minority, though. I like that part.

ABLOW: The vast minority.

COLLINS: Thank you -- minority, correct. Thank you so much.


COLLINS: We should also mention that Dr. Keith Ablow is the author of the book "Inside the Mind of Scott Peterson."

Erica Hill from HEADLINE NEWS joining us now with some of the day's other top stories. Hello once again, Erica.

HILL: Hey, Heidi.

We start off with torrential rainfall, which is causing widespread flooding in the European Alps. It's really awful, you'll see it from the pictures here, the problem especially acute in Switzerland, where at least six have died. Hundreds more have been evacuated from their homes. Swollen rivers also bursting their banks in Austria and Germany.

Meantime, in the mountains of Kyrgyzstan, dramatic video of a helicopter crash. Shortly after takeoff earlier this month, the helicopter lost stability, spinning around and rolling over the head of a glacier, the rotor smashed into a thousand pieces. But amazingly, all 22 people onboard got out of the wreck before it exploded. There is still no word on the cause of the accident.

Cleveland, Ohio, now. He is hitched. Ohio Representative and former presidential candidate Dennis Kucinich married a British woman over the weekend. During his long-shot 2004 presidential bid, the twice divorced Kucinich told a New Hampshire audience he was in the market for a date. Women then vied for a date with him. A Kucinich spokesman, though, declined to reveal how he met his new wife, and also would not comment on how long they'd been dating.


COLLINS: First the Gore kiss, now this. All right. Erica, thanks so much. See you again in about 30 minutes.

360 next. What do your dreams really mean? We'll take a look at how they can help you be creative in the waking world.

Also tonight, a list of all-time music greats. But it's not about the music. It's about the body parts.


COLLINS: If you're looking for a solution to a problem, the best approach may be as the old saying goes, to sleep on it. Nighttime dreams have been the source of inspiration and creativity for so many people, including inventors, scientists and musicians. But how do they turn their dreams into reality? Here's a look.


COLLINS (voice-over): The fog. The floating figures. The dissonant sounds. The chamber opera "Rossa" unfolds like the fabric of a dream. This is not just a dramatic device. The scene literally came in a dream to composer Shirish Korde.

SHIRISH KORDE, COMPOSER: This is the opening sound that I heard. It sounds like a trumpet. And I -- there was another kind of music that I heard in my dream, and then this kind of gradual evolution of the images.

COLLINS: Using dreams to help him compose has been a gradual evolution for Korde. He always had vivid dreams, but usually just ignored them, until this particular dream about cranes.

KORDE: I do remember very, very vividly seeing formations of birds flying in different ways, at different speeds, diving. I also saw birds standing still and moving very slowly. The cranes were making certain kinds of sounds.

COLLINS: Those musical sounds became the "Tenderness of Cranes." The composition won two awards and took Korde's music to a new level. KORDE: That piece for me, was a breakthrough. That was the first time I accepted what my dream was telling me. I felt that it was fresher, that it was more natural and that I was allowing aspects of myself to come through.

COLLINS: Could our brain's nighttime adventures really be a portal to creativity? Harvard psychologist Deirdre Barrett says, yes. Dreams hold important potential.

PROF. DEIRDRE BARRETT, HARVARD MEDICAL SCHOOL: They think so much more broadly, that for many kinds of creative tasks, they may give us some inspiration that we're not going to have awake.

COLLINS (on camera): What is the stuff of dreams made of? We may never know exactly, but what we do know is that all of us dream on average, four or five times a night. For many of us, it's the only time our imaginations are fully unleashed.

And that's not all. Some researchers believe dreams can be built- in problem-solvers.

BARRETT: Our waking state can get stuck in thinking that the solution happens in one particular way and dreams are better at relaxing and thinking outside the box.

COLLINS (voice-over): Architect Lucy Davis knows what it's like to be stuck. For one particular project, she started and threw out waste baskets full of designs. Then in a dream two days before deadline, she found her answer.

LUCY DAVIS, ARCHITECT: I saw a person, kind of surreal, with arms up-stretched of in the shape of a Y.

COLLINS: That Y became the body of the house.

DAVIS: The next image was that of a spaceship out in the galaxy with arms like this and a prowl, like a ship.

COLLINS: From the backyard, you can see the outstretched arms or wings of the house. And jutting out towards the pool is its pointed prowl.

DAVIS: And then I was walking through a house with a spine of light -- a spine of clear-story windows, which runs right through the middle of the house and rafters that come up and cross.

COLLINS: Davis says the foundation for many of her buildings was laid in her sleep -- more than 30 designs in all, including her own house.

DAVIS: I feel like the designs that have come to me in dreams are some of my best designs, actually.

COLLINS: Davis is in good company. Some pretty impressive achievements in history have flowed from the river of dreams.


COLLINS: Billy Joel composes in his sleep. He dreams all of his tunes.

And Salvador Dali, he would wake up with bizarre visions that would become his paintings.

Mary Shelley's nightmare inspired her book "Frankenstein."

Science and technology have also benefited from the sleeping mind. Dreams reportedly played a role in the invention of the sewing machine, discovery of the benzene ring, creation of the periodic table.

But not everyone is convinced. Jay Allan Hobson, a Harvard research scientist, says don't count on dreaming the next big thing.

DR. J. ALLAN HOBSON, HARVARD MEDICAL SCHOOL: We have 1,000 or 2,000 dream reports in our files and I would say that there are no striking breakthroughs in any of them. That doesn't mean that these things don't occur, but they're rarissimo (ph). They're very rare.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You can use these dreams to get whatever you need...

COLLINS: Rare or not, more and more people are looking to dreams for personal inspiration; for practical solutions. At this dream workshop in Pennsylvania, people learn how to remember, even influence those illusive nightly visions. It's called dream incubation. Here's how experts say to do it.

BARRETT: Write down some statement of the problem or question in just a sentence or two. And then just as you're falling asleep to remind yourself, I want to dream about X. Keep a pad and pen by the bed so that when you remember a dream, it's going to get recorded.

COLLINS: Shirish Korde is a believer. He rushes to his music sheets and piano whenever a dream strikes a creative note.

KORDE: If it is really part of the continuum of experience of being alive, then don't shut yourself off to what your subconscious is giving you.


COLLINS: Let's go ahead and find out now what's coming up at the top of the hour on PAULA ZAHN NOW.

PAULA ZAHN, HOST, PAULA ZAHN NOW: I'm scared to dream tonight.

COLLINS: Hi, Paula. Are you awake?

ZAHN: I'm awake. I'm just afraid to try to analyze my dreams.

Coming up at the top of the hour we have a fascinating and disturbing court case out of San Francisco, you probably haven't heard before. She was a troubled teenager. He was a married psychologist nearly three times her age. Their love affair would later become a marriage. Now more than 30 years after she began seeing him, she's accused of killing him.

It's a case that's pitting a mother against her son, one brother against another brother. And the question tonight is, will her claim of self-defense fly? We're talking about her husband being wounded some 27 times. That story tonight, coming up in about four minutes from now.

COLLINS: Wow. All right, Paula, we'll be watching. Thank you.

And still ahead on 360, a list of the greatest rock stars of all- time. But these rankings aren't about their music. Find out how their body parts score, when we come back.


COLLINS: In tonight's list, "Spin" magazine has come up with the 25 most incredible rock star body parts. It starts off well enough. At number one: Madonna's belly button, of course. Even after two kids, it has not lost its charm.

At number two: The liver of Keith Richards, the hardest working internal organ in rock 'n' roll!

Number three: Michael Stipe's skull gave us the lyrics to "Losing My Religion" and "Fall On Me," and we can forgive him for "Shiny Happy People." I actually kind of like that.

However, we do have to take issue with some of the rankings. At number 10 -- lowly 10, we find Tina Turner's legs. Does five decades of perfection mean nothing to these people?

And if that's not bad enough, Mr. Gene Simmons' tongue is ranked 21. Come on, not even cracking the top 20?

Now, here at 360 we don't really like to take sides. We look at issues from all angles, but this travesty we cannot begin to fathom.

I'm Heidi Collins. CNN's primetime coverage continues now with Paula Zahn. Hi, Paula.



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