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American Morning

Interview With Dan Bartlett; Gotti Trial; Playing Weight of Athletes; Close Calls At Airports

Aired August 23, 2005 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Welcome, everybody. It is exactly half past the hour on this AMERICAN MORNING.
The White House is watching with pretty intense interest, as you can imagine, as the Iraqi negotiators are trying to reach a compromise on that new constitution.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: I think we're all interested in this one. Coming up, one of the president's chief advisers is with us, Dan Bartlett. We'll find out what he has been hearing about those negotiations, what the White House thinks about this, well, draft -- and that's a capital "D" on draft -- constitution.

But before we do that, let's check the headlines. Carol Costello here with that.

Carol -- good morning.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. "Now in the News."

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's withdrawal plan is almost a done deal. Today, security forces are moving into settlements in the West Bank, and they're dealing with some resistance, including at this religious school in Homesh. Earlier, some young activists were banding together to avoid evacuation. Israel completed its withdrawal from 21 settlements in Gaza on Monday. And settlers already evacuated from two other West Bank communities.

U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan is getting a firsthand look at the food crisis in western Africa. The secretary-general will spend the next two days in Niger visiting the most affected regions and making sure that aid is being delivered. An estimated two-and-a-half million people in Niger do not have enough to eat due to drought and a severe locust infestation.

An apology from convicted serial bomber Eric Rudolph. Rudolph appeared in an Atlanta courtroom Monday, where he was sentenced to life in prison. During that hearing, Rudolph apologized for the 1996 Olympic Park bombing. One person died in that attack, more than 100 others were hurt. But Rudolph did not offer an apology for any of the other bombings he confessed to, including the 1998 attack on a women's clinic.

More than 2,000 people in New York State have reported being sick. And officials believe they have pinpointed the cause. The gastrointestinal illness has apparently been traced back to the Seneca Lake State Park in central New York. The water park there has been shut down for the season as a result.

And could your choice of child care influence how well your kid does in school? A new study suggests working single mothers who rely on informal child care such as family and friends may negatively influence their child's mental development. But the study's author says this could be set off if the parent enrolls the child in preschool or some sort of formal center-based child care, which seems to fly in the face that it's better, like, to have, you know, one-on- one interaction with your kid through family and friends.

M. O'BRIEN: Well, yes, it's a long-running debate, and I would not want to be judgmental about that. Carol, thank you very much.

Iraqi lawmakers have given themselves until Thursday to work out remaining problems with the draft constitution. Sunni negotiators say there are more than 20 issues still to be resolved, many of them big issues.

Dan Bartlett, counselor to the president. He joins us from the North Lawn at the White House.

Good to have you with us, Mr. Bartlett. It looks like the Shiites and Kurds have an agreement. The Sunnis are kind of left out. I want to share with you a couple of quotes that we've gathered from some of the top Sunni negotiators.

One of them saying: "This constitution is full of land mines that would explode on Iraqis. The constitution will divide the country."

Another says: "We will campaign to tell both Sunnis and Shiites to reject the constitution, which has elements that will lead to the breakup of Iraq and civil war."

It doesn't look like much progress has been made there.

DAN BARTLETT, COUNSELOR TO THE PRESIDENT: Well, I think, Miles, it's important to note that that's exactly why the Shia and Kurdish leadership have taken the prudent step of using the next three days to try to iron out and reconcile some of these differences that have arisen in the draft constitution.

But this is progress being made. These are thorny issues. If after 30 years of dictatorship, these types of critical issues about the future of Iraq are going to be difficult to resolve. But the fact of the matter is, is that you do have Iraqi leaders on the ground trying to reconcile in a peaceful way, I will say, these types of political differences. And they're going to use the next 72 hours to do just that. And we have confidence that they are going to try to reconcile their differences.

M. O'BRIEN: But 72 hours to untangle, as you say, 30 years of dictatorship, which laid the groundwork for all of this, that's not a lot of time.

BARTLETT: Well, Miles, you also know that they've had several weeks in which they know the issues. They know the type of thorny disagreements that are taking place over the type of language that is being debated. And they do believe this will afford them enough time to make those agreements stick in a new constitution that can then be ratified by the Iraqi people.

So it is difficult. We expected it to be difficult. These are tough issues, but we do think we have Iraqi leaders on the ground that are committed to finding a consensus on this document.

M. O'BRIEN: There seems to be a big rush here. And there are some good reasons for that. There are, after all, 100,000-plus U.S. troops there. There are people who are - the bloodshed every day. Having said all of that, isn't it important to get this right as opposed to get it done quickly?

BARTLETT: Absolutely. And I think that's exactly why you're seeing the type of prudent leadership by the Iraqi leadership in which they're using as much time as possible.

But at the same time, Miles, we have seen that having deadlines are very important for the political process, whether it be the handing over sovereignty, whether it be sticking to our guns and having the election on time in January. This is critical to build confidence with the Iraqi people. If you don't have a deadline, then it can just slip and slide, and you can have excuses for not getting it done.

So we know the issues. More importantly, the Iraqis know the issues that have to be reconciled. They're going to use this time wisely to try to reconcile the differences and gain as much consensus as possible.

M. O'BRIEN: Now, one of the big issues here that remains outstanding is the role of Islamic law, to what extent Islamic law Sharia will have some impact on freedom and civil rights ultimately in whatever Iraq becomes. Can you really declare Iraq a democracy if Sharia is present as a governing rule of law?

BARTLETT: Well, Miles, it's important for your viewers to understand that oftentimes our view of democracy is the American view of democracy. But what we've seen throughout history and the world is that democracies are going to take shape and form that fit the norms and culture of a particular country. You can do that and also protect minority rights and protect the rights of women and make sure that equal justice for all.

And we do believe that there can be a reconciliation between what you're talking about and as well as the type of international norms of democracy that the international community can recognize.

So these are the types of issues that are being reconciled. We do believe they can be in a way that will protect minority rights and cherish the very democratic principles we all are literally fighting for. So we do believe there is a common ground, and that's what is tying to be achieved in the coming days. M. O'BRIEN: All right. Well, maybe we're not expecting a Jeffersonian democracy. But I'd like to hear from you here right now how democratic, how free does Iraq need to justify the tremendous costs -- the bloodshed and just the financial cost as well -- for taxpayers? It does come with a great toll.

BARTLETT: Absolutely. And it's a very necessary toll that we do finish the job in Iraq. It's critical to our national security. The document that's being produced there is one that will reflect the wants and desires of eight-and-a-half million Iraqis who voted in January. The Iraqi people themselves, Miles, will be the ultimate determination as to whether it lives up to their standards. Look, that is the critical...

M. O'BRIEN: Our standards...

(CROSSTALK)

BARTLETT: ... in this, Miles.

M. O'BRIEN: But our standards are important, too, aren't they?

BARTLETT: Absolutely. And that's exactly what we're fighting for is to give people the right to speak their mind, to vote and give their voice to what they want for their own country...

(CROSSTALK)

M. O'BRIEN: But if that falls short on the issue of civil rights and freedoms...

BARTLETT: We don't believe it will. And, again, you've got to understand where we're coming from. We're coming from a dictatorship of over 30 years, Miles. And we are moving in a very fast way to a country that is going to respect minority rights. It's going to give women rights they have not seen or cherished in the Middle East in decades. You're going to...

M. O'BRIEN: Well, some would say the rights of women are going backwards in Iraq.

BARTLETT: Well, they' absolutely wrong. I mean, in a country in which you are summarily executed if you didn't agree with the dictator is not exactly protecting minority rights. So this is a quantum leap being made in Iraq. Is it going to be a perfect document? Absolutely not, Miles. Our own constitution wasn't perfect when we passed it. We are continuing making amendments to our own constitution. It's a dynamic process, Miles. But it's a critical process that is recognizing the hopes and aspirations of the Iraqi people, and that's something the American people can be proud of.

M. O'BRIEN: Dan Bartlett, counselor to the president, thanks for speaking with us this morning.

BARTLETT: Thanks, Miles.

M. O'BRIEN: Soledad.

S. O'BRIEN: It's time to take a look at the weather this morning.

(WEATHER REPORT)

S. O'BRIEN: Well, the conspiracy trial against John Gotti, Jr. resumes today right here in New York City. Curtis Sliwa recounted being shot at point-blank range while he was sitting in the back seat of a taxi cab 13 years ago. Sliwa says the attack was in retaliation for denouncing Gotti's father on his radio show.

"New York Times" reporter Julia Preston was in the courtroom on Monday.

Good morning. Nice to have you.

JULIA PRESTON, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": Good morning.

S. O'BRIEN: Riveting, I think, is a very fair word to describe how Curtis Sliwa was on the stand.

PRESTON: High courtroom drama. He leaned over the jury box and put his hands together to describe how a gunman jumped up in the front seat and pointed a silver-plated pistol at him and started firing. And then how he breezed, alerted him to the fact that there was an open window in the front seat. And he lunged out that window, using, as he put it, the back seat as a trampoline.

S. O'BRIEN: And the fact that his life was saved truly was because of his clothes kind of got caught on a passing car?

PRESTON: He said that the taxi cab that he was in had bumped parked cars on the street on Avenue A, and his clothes caught on a bumper and yanked him the rest of the way out the window.

S. O'BRIEN: The whole thing sounds just like a fabrication. And yet, it actually -- there is a description that was given by Joseph D'Angelo, who is a former Gambino family soldier, a mob family soldier. And it was very similar. I mean, they're almost the same story with some exceptions.

PRESTON: Well, this is the story that Curtis has been telling over and over again over the years. And, frankly, very few people believed him. But now...

S. O'BRIEN: Nobody believed him.

PRESTON: Nobody believed him. And now, he's telling it from the witness stand in a courtroom, and a few days after the man who has confessed to having been the driver told essentially the same story.

S. O'BRIEN: And the driver of the taxi cab and the shooter of Curtis Sliwa. There are, though, some big exceptions to their story. I mean, there are areas where their stories don't jibe. Are those critical areas? PRESTON: Well, I'm not sure they're critical, but they obviously will be important for the defense. Mr. Sliwa said, for example, that he hailed the cab, whereas, Joey D'Angelo, who is the driver, said that Curtis just jumped in and caught them both off guard. And that is going to be very important detail.

The other thing is that Joey D'Angelo had said that the gunman pointed at Curtis and said, "Give me your wallet." And there was no mention of that by Curtis yesterday in the courtroom.

S. O'BRIEN: The original plan was to beat him up. I mean, if you listen to Joey D'Angelo's testimony, they had no intention of shooting him, did they?

PRESTON: Well, I mean...

S. O'BRIEN: He said. All right.

PRESTON: That's what he said.

S. O'BRIEN: He's a mobster with a gun.

PRESTON: He says. Yes, that's right.

S. O'BRIEN: And, of course, he's thinking about his future and how much prison time he's going to get at some point.

Curtis Sliwa, as you well know, this mythical figure here in New York City, and as you pointed out, he's told this story a lot. He's told other stories, too, about close calls, how he was targeted, how he was attacked, how he was nearly killed by mobsters every step of the way. They're definitely going to use that against him, aren't they?

PRESTON: Well, the one point that Curtis makes is that he now has five holes in his body that he didn't have before June 19, 1992. And he described in quite vivid, painful detail yesterday the agony of his wounds and the suffering that he's gone through over the years since then.

And so, in a certain way, it was a struggle yesterday between the old Curtis Sliwa, the liar, the hype man, and a man who was trying to tell the one story that is actually true.

S. O'BRIEN: A true story, yes. It's pretty remarkable stuff. Julia Preston, your article is just amazing about this. It was a great read.

PRESTON: Thank you.

S. O'BRIEN: Thank you for joining us. We appreciate it -- Miles.

M. O'BRIEN: Still to come in the program, did obesity contribute to the sudden death of NFL lineman Thomas Herrion? We'll look at the super-sizing of pro athletes next on AMERICAN MORNING. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

M. O'BRIEN: The death of an NFL player is, once again, raising questions about the health of some pro athletes. San Francisco 49er Thomas Herrion collapsed Saturday and died after a game in Denver. Initial autopsy results inconclusive. Officials say more thorough tests are planned into the cause of Herrion's death.

Nicholas Ratamess is with the College of New Jersey's Department of Health and Exercise Science. And he joins us from Philadelphia.

Good to have you with us.

NICHOLAS RATAMESS, COLLEGE OF NEW JERSEY: Thank you.

M. O'BRIEN: Let's, first of all, get it out here. Do you think weight is a factor in all of this?

RATAMESS: Well, weight is just one factor amongst many that could contribute to an incidence such as what happened with Mr. Herrion. When we look at the frequency, especially at this time of the year when professional football players are in preseason conditioning, certainly a larger athlete, one with a higher percent of body fat, will have different thermal regulatory processes, meaning that their body controls heat. It's more of a challenge for that person to control their body temperature. There might be incidence of greater sweating, et cetera. And more attention needs to be paid to proper hydration during practice.

M. O'BRIEN: All right. Well, there are a lot of players in this category, a lot of, you know, 300-pounders plus. It's amazing to me how fast they are on top of being that heavy. But how could a coach, how could the training staff, how can they identify who might be more at risk?

RATAMESS: When we look at a position-by-position breakdown, we tend to see the highest percentage of body fat tends to be on the offensive linemen. And that, again, tends to be position-specific. But when you look at the role of an offensive lineman, certainly having a large amount of body mass is critical to that position. So naturally, from that standpoint, they may be a group that's more at risk compared to other positions on the field.

M. O'BRIEN: OK. But among that group, it's impossible to identify any one particular individual necessarily then?

RATAMESS: No, because there are several factors besides the player's weight that could contribute. There could be underlying genetic factors that certainly could predispose a person to heat illness more regularly. There could be pharmaceutical use. There could be other types of hydration practices. We don't know whether the player is hydrated going into practice or not.

M. O'BRIEN: How would steroids factor into this? Would that make it worse? RATAMESS: Well, when we talk about drugs, steroids, as far as this issue, probably wouldn't play a large role. But if the use of amphetamines, for example, stimulants, these effects tend to have potent cardiovascular effects on the athlete. They may cause some mild dehydration. And if that person is out on a very hot, humid day that could exacerbate the exercise response in the heat.

M. O'BRIEN: Now, you have looked historically at the body fat ratios in professional athletes. You focused on one particular team, but this obviously would be apt for the entire league. There is tremendous pressure on these players. You have to be this big in order to succeed in this league. How much has the weight increased? And what do we do, if anything, to try to stop this, you know, fat race, if you will?

RATAMESS: Well, when we look at the increases that we've seen since the '70s, the average offensive lineman -- and, again, you made a great point, Miles, that we looked at one specific team and some other studies that looked at only specific teams, not the whole league in general. But we are seeing about 30 to 40 kilogram increases in body mass of these individuals. Now, ideally, certainly having a lot of...

M. O'BRIEN: It's about 60 pounds, right?

RATAMESS: Yes.

M. O'BRIEN: Sixty or 70 pounds.

RATAMESS: Or more. Sixty or 70 pounds, sometimes even more.

M. O'BRIEN: All right.

RATAMESS: When we look at what this is doing and how we want to increase a player's weight scientifically, certainly increasing muscle mass is the best way to go. But it's very difficult to tame those types of body weights without increasing fat, the percent of body fat along with it.

Over the past 20 years, we've seen significant improvements in the training and conditioning of athletes, dietary practices, supplementation, et cetera. Along with athletes just being bigger, that's enabled this massive increase in the size of athletes, especially offensive linemen that we have seen today.

So it's important that we know when we go into preseason conditioning, et cetera, and when we look at these larger athletes, the 350 to 360-pound athletes, they are somewhat at a disadvantage when they're exercising intensely for several hours a day in the hot, humid weather. And certainly special attention needs to be paid to hydration during that time. Even though the athletes do have a significant amount of body weight and perhaps a higher percent of body fat as well, proper supervision during the practice, certainly that person wouldn't be at that much of a greater risk.

M. O'BRIEN: Nicholas Ratamess of the College of New Jersey, thanks you for your time.

RATAMESS: Thank you very much for having me.

M. O'BRIEN: Soledad.

S. O'BRIEN: Still to come this morning, close calls on the runway. What's behind the increasing number of near misses? And what's being done about it? A look at that is ahead on AMERICAN MORNING. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

M. O'BRIEN: The nation has its eyes on the Northwest Airlines mechanics' strike this week, but there is another aviation issue causing some concern. Questions are being raised about the rising number of close calls on runways at some busy airports nationwide, especially at Logan Airport in Boston. That's where we find Dan Lothian.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAN LOTHIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): It's like a high- wire act in which precision is paramount. Air traffic controller Tom Coronite has been directing planes from this tower at Logan Airport in Boston for a dozen years.

TOM CORONITE, BOSTON AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL TOWER: My purpose to be there is to prevent a collision between aircraft. And I'm cognizant of that every minute of every shift that I work.

LOTHIAN: A job that lately has been even more demanding with a burst of so-called runway incursions or close calls. In June, two fully-loaded passenger jets barely avoided a high-speed collision here.

TOM KINTON, LOGAN AIRPORT DIRECTOR: We have gone from an error- free year to 14 official runway incursions in the last 12 months. And that is the wrong trend.

LOTHIAN (on camera): There are various scenarios. But what often happens is that a plane is cleared for takeoff and moves on to the runway. At the same time, another plane taxiing to a terminal moves on to the active runway right into the path of the plane that's been given a green light.

CORONITE: There's nothing, no detail more important than the safety of that airplane going from the gate to the runways, going from the runways to the gate.

LOTHIAN (voice over): In another near disaster, an airplane is cleared to land on the very same runway where another airplane has been cleared to take off.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 248, clear to land.

LOTHIAN: That's exactly what happened last August at Los Angeles International Airport. The National Transportation Safety Board released this animation and tape recordings of the incidents involving a Southwest Airlines 737 and an Asiana Airline 747.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That was close.

LOTHIAN: What's behind these mistakes? Officials blame everything from human error to confusing signs to complex airport layouts.

DENNIS DOLAN, AIR LINE PILOTS' ASSOCIATION: Some of the older airports where there's a lot of different crossing runways and associated taxiways, it can be very confusing.

LOTHIAN: Logan, which has had twice the number of incidents as other airports of similar size, has five runways with another on the way. And they all intersect. The FAA, which insists it has zero tolerance for any kind of aviation mishaps, say overall runway incursions are down. Nonetheless, the agency is investing in new technology, like enhanced ground radar, to assist controllers and pilots.

RUSS CHEW, FAA DIRECTOR OF OPERATIONS: We'll continue to add more layers of safety to further improve the system as time goes on.

LOTHIAN: At Logan Airport, the FAA is evaluating procedures, and signs are being updated. Coronite also wants what he considers to be a major problem addressed.

CORONITE: We need more controllers, and we need more eyes watching the skies.

LOTHIAN: An effort to eliminate a runway hazard that's too close for comfort.

Dan Lothian, CNN, Boston.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

M. O'BRIEN: So, why is Logan Airport at the top of this list? Take a look at the diagram that a pilot would use going in and out of Logan Airport. This is the actual chart that you would use. As Dan Lothian pointed out, five runways -- one, two, three, four and five. At any given point in time, you can have arrivals coming down that runway, departures going out that runway. As you can see, all of these runways intersect. Add to that the confusion of what is going on here. This is the main terminal area. Airplanes taxiing out, in many cases having to cross runways all along the way. This is what happens at old airports, built along Boston Harbor in this case, where they have a space limitation.

Now, take a look at Atlanta Hartsfield Airport, a much newer facility. Lots of open space there. And although there is a lot of confusion here on this diagram -- and I want to just point out this is all, you know, the basic terminal area in the middle -- what you're talking about is each of these runways, none of them intersect. They're all separate. And so that drastically eliminates the possibility of some of these runway incursions that we've been talking about.

Back with more in just a moment.

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