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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Hurricane Katrina; Walter Reed Closing; Pentagon Computer Attacks; Iraq: Another Vietnam? Henry Kissinger Interview; Anthony Principi and John Thune on BRAC
Aired August 25, 2005 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everybody.
Tonight, surrendering America. Dallas, Texas, votes on an incredible proposal that would force school officials there to learn Spanish and speak it on the job. All of this, instead of forcing parents and students to assimilate into U.S. society and learn English. We'll have a special report.
Also tonight, a constitutional crisis in Iraq as that country's parliament once again defers a vote on a new draft constitution. I'll be talking with former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger on whether Iraq is sliding toward civil war and whether Iraq is turning into another Vietnam.
And stunning charges leveled against the Department of Labor. The Department of Labor is supposed to be fighting for the American worker. It may, instead, be hiding job postings from American citizens and giving them exclusively to foreign workers instead.
We begin tonight with what is now Hurricane Katrina. Katrina strengthened to a Category 1 hurricane this afternoon. It will make landfall on the Florida coast later tonight.
Katrina is strengthening with winds of 75 miles an hour. The hurricane's eye is expected to hit near the Miami-Fort Lauderdale area, affecting some five million residents there. A hurricane warning has been posted for a 150-mile stretch of southeast Florida, from Vero Beach to Florida City, an area that was spared the worst of last year's four major hurricanes.
Tonight, Florida's already being battered by Katrina's strong winds. Residents of the Barrier Islands off the coast of Florida have already evacuated. Mandatory evacuations were ordered on those islands today.
Inland residents are also taking precautions as this storm moves closer. Residents today boarded up their windows and filled sandbags, trying to protect their homes from expected flooding.
The biggest threat from this storm at this point appears to be rainfall, and with it flooding. The storm could dump as much as 12 inches of rain on southeast Florida.
Covering Hurricane Katrina for us tonight, Jason Carroll at Deerfield Beach, and John Zarrella on Del Ray Beach. We begin with Jason Carroll.
JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, I heard you use the word "battered" just a little while ago, and that's very accurate in terms of what we're experiencing here at Deerfield Beach. This is about 20 minutes north of Fort Lauderdale, and we're expecting here three-to-five-foot storm surge. Well, that really doesn't mean anything until you take a look at what that actually looks like out there.
You can see the surf that is moving in right now on Deerfield Beach. But really, the issue right now is not the surf, it's not even really the rain. It's the wind.
We've experienced 40-mile-per-hour gusts that are out there. I think you can tell just from the way I'm standing what that sort of looks like. But If you take a look at some of the trees, maybe you can get a better sense on your monitors, your television screens there at home what it looks like to see that. Also, let's also try to show them some of the signs here that have been flapping in the strong 40- mile-per-hour gusts that we've experienced out here as well.
As you said, this has really been relentless the way that this storm has come on shore here. I know it's only a Category 1, but it certainly feels far worse than that.
We've had several power outages here. Power went on and off several times. At last point that we checked, the power is off here at Deerfield Beach.
They are under voluntary evacuations here in this area, and despite as bad as things look for me right now, which is pretty bad, to be honest, most people are staying in their homes, they are not evacuating. They've been through worse, and what they say they are going to do is stick it out, see what happens when Hurricane Katrina moves inland and hits shore.
That's not expected to happen for another hour or so. Most people here saying they're going to stick it out, tough it out, wait to see where Hurricane Katrina heads next -- Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you very much. Jason Carroll.
And now over to John Zarrella. He's standing by in Del Ray Beach, Florida -- John.
JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, we're just a little bit further north, maybe about 20 miles further north from where Jason is, and you can see that the waves are crashing in here on the Atlantic Ocean, the white caps are pounding in, the wind really whipping the tops off those waves. Right now, we've got a fire truck just turning around here, going by us. Periodically, we've seen quite a few emergency vehicles and police coming up and down the streets here in Del Ray Beach.
I'm going to walk down and give folks a quick look, Lou, at what it's like down here. It's actually pretty quiet.
For the most part, most of the people have heeded the police and local officials' advice, staying indoors, staying away from the elements. Again, as you pointed out, the biggest concern here from this storm is not going to be the wind.
This isn't a Hurricane Andrew, this isn't Dennis. It's a Category 1 hurricane. The real concern is going to be flooding over the next 24 hours because this is such a slow-moving storm.
You can see there's little bits of debris down, palm fronds down from some of the trees in the background there. But beyond that, we really do not expect to see any kind of major structural damage from this storm. But the real concern will be the amount of water.
We're on the north side of the eye wall, the north side of the center of this storm. Some of the worst weather will come up here where Jason Carroll is, a little further south, and up here into Del Ray Beach.
Right now, wind gusts here, as Jason had, we were checking in with wind gusts in the mid 40s to low 50s throughout the afternoon. Expect that to get a little bit worse as the afternoon wears into the evening here -- Lou.
DOBBS: John Zarrella. Thank you very much.
And as our viewers see there on the screen in the Doppler radar, that -- the eye of the storm still a few hours away from landfall. We here at CNN, of course, will be keeping you posted throughout the evening and will be returning to our reporters in southeast Florida for updates. And we'll be talking with Max Mayfield, the head of the National Hurricane Center, which again has done an excellent job in forecasting the path of this storm and keeping those in the path of this storm alerted and warned.
Turning now to Europe, the death toll there is rising after massive flooding. This is, in fact, the worst flooding in Europe in six years.
At least 23 people have been killed. The storms have caused an estimated $2 billion in damages.
Romania, the hardest hit, where dozens of flood victims are being found in their homes. Lakes and rivers in Switzerland and southern Germany are overflowing.
Torrential rain still falling, triggering mudslides in Austria. All of this as western Europe is suffering from a very serious drought.
Turning to Mexico, torrential rains from Tropical Storm Jose have killed five people there and forced massive evacuations in flooded regions. The Mexican government says flooding, they fear, could trigger landslides. Hundreds of people whose homes have been destroyed by flooding are being moved to government shelters. Turning to Iraq tonight, for the third time in two weeks, Iraqi officials have missed their deadline to complete a new constitution. The first deadline was pushed back a week to Monday of this week. On Monday, Iraqi officials said they needed only three more days to finish that draft.
Now consensus appears far more difficult than they expected. They now say they need just one more day. Iraq Shiites and Kurds have already approved the draft, but the Sunnis refuse to support it.
A spokesman for Iraq's interim prime minister says the latest delay is "not a disaster." That is despite the fact that the lack of Sunni support could well kill this constitution when it goes before the public in October. Should that happen, Iraqi officials would have to begin the entire process all over again.
Also today, a gruesome discovery in Baghdad. Iraqi police found 36 bodies in a river, all of them were shot execution style.
A federal panel today voted to close the Walter Reed Medical Center, which has treated more than 4,300 of our troops injured in Iraq. Walter Reed is the Army's largest health care facility, and a venerable American institution.
The shutdown would cost American taxpayers almost $1 billion, and it will save American taxpayers over a period of 20 years a mere $300 million. This, some of the dilemma facing the panel, and, of course, the communities in which those military bases are established.
David Ensor reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice over): The commission voted 8-0 to close the medical center and move most of its operations to the Bethesda Naval Medical Center in Maryland, which will change its name to Walter Reed. The existing Walter Reed is the crown jewel of Army medical facilities on the East Coast. In recent years, it has been the main destination for American soldiers who have lost limbs to roadside bombs in Iraq. They go to be fitted with the latest in prosthetic legs and arms.
ANTHONY PRINCIPI, BASE CLOSINGS COMMISSION CHAIRMAN: I strongly support this proposal. You know, the kids coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan, all of them in harm's way, deserve to come back to 21st century medical care.
The care that's being provided at Walter Reed is extraordinary. It's not just bricks and mortar. It's the people who bring those facilities to life. And I think we can be very proud of the care that these young men and women are getting at Walter Reed, but the facility, as the secretary said, is old. It needs to be modernized.
ENSOR: The move does not save money. It costs almost $1 billion, balanced against a saving of only $300-plus million. But it would permit a significant and needed upgrade in the medical facilities for soldiers, officials say.
Part of it is a factor of space. There's little room to expand on the 100-acre Walter Reed campus in Washington, and city height limits forbid tall buildings. By contrast, at the Bethesda site higher buildings are possible.
The decision likely marks the end of an era and a proud hospital that has treated thousands of soldiers, plus presidents Reagan, Eisenhower, Truman, as well as British Prime Minister Sir Winston Churchill.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ENSOR: Veterans groups are saying they do not object to the change as long as it is done seamlessly. They point out that, because of Iraq, badly-injured soldiers are arriving in this area all the time -- Lou.
DOBBS: David, this is one of the more troubling aspects of the Base Closing Commission, that it faces. Walter Reed, a venerable institution, also an important facility for caring for our wounded soldiers, as you have reported. Seamlessly is not a possibility it would seem, at least to me, if you're talking about actually closing this facility and awaiting construction expansion at Bethesda.
ENSOR: Well, they're planning to keep it open while the construction goes on in Bethesda. The problem will be making sure there's no dip in the services they provide until the services come on line in Bethesda, because, as you say, that's very, very essential given that there's a war going on.
DOBBS: Much of it, in point of fact -- and I'll be talking with Anthony Principi, the chairman of the Federal Base Closing Commission here later -- as you know, David, part of this, it appears, some have been too clever by half in their approach to this. It will be an interesting political outcome as well as, of course, a very important economic impact that we'll all be watching.
Thank you very much.
In addition to Walter Reed, the Federal Base Closing Commission has voted this week to close down five other large military institutions. Most of them are located on the East Coast. The commission has also spared four military institutions, including two major naval bases located in New England.
One of the bases whose fate will be decided as soon as tomorrow is the Ellsworth Air Force Base in South Dakota. Its fate has been the subject of intense political debate and maneuvering.
Ed Henry has the story for us from Arlington, Virginia -- Ed.
ED HENRY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Lou, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld has insisted that not an ounce of politics has played any role in this entire process. But as you mentioned, the biggest issue left on the table for this commission, which is meeting right now in the room just beside me, is the fate of Ellsworth Air Force Base in South Dakota, and that is just dripping with political intrigue.
In a case of very strange political bedfellows, Republican Senator John Thune of South Dakota is now locked arm in arm in that very room with Democratic Senator Tim Johnson, desperately trying to save this Air Force base at the last moment. They should get that decision on Friday.
They're trying desperately to do that because this Air Force base is the second largest employer in the entire state of South Dakota. Thune had to forge this unlikely political alliance because the White House unexpectedly pulled the rug out from under him on this issue.
Thune had a bitter Senate battle with Tim Johnson in 2002, lost by just about 500 votes, but then came back and knocked off Democratic leader Tom Daschle just last year, in part on a promise from Republicans that if Thune was elected, his friends in the White House would make sure that President Bush save this Air Force base.
You can imagine, then, John Thune's surprise when he found out that, in fact, Ellsworth was on the hit list here. And he's waiting its fate from this commission.
He had no choice but then work with his Democratic rival, Tim Johnson, launch this last-minute lobbying campaign. Thune told me today he's doing that because he wants to let bygones be bygones. But it might be another story when it comes to bygones in terms of his relationship with this White House.
In fact, Thune confirmed to me that he has stopped raising campaign money for fellow Republicans. I asked whether that's because of time constraints with this process or because he's angry at the White House. He paused and said, "It's time constraints," but the body language suggest he's not happy with this White House at all -- Lou.
DOBBS: One could not imagine him being very happy. And we'll be talking with Senator Thune later here in this broadcast.
Thank you very much.
I'll also be joined by the chairman of the Base Closing Commission, Anthony Principi, as well.
President Bush's poll numbers have plunged to the lowest levels of his presidency, as we reported here last evening. American support for the war in Iraq, not approving of the way the president is now leading that war. And a new poll suggests that American confidence in the U.S. military as well is on the decline.
That's troubling. And it's the result of a McCormick Tribune Foundation Gallup poll showing that 77 percent of those surveyed say the United States military sometimes misleads the media. Sixty percent of those who were polled say they have not received enough information about the military's operation in both Iraq and Afghanistan to make informed decisions about those operations.
And joining me now to discuss this apparent crisis of confidence among many Americans is General David Grange.
General, good to see you.
This is not happy news by any stretch of the imagination for either the military or the media.
BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: No, it's not, Lou. It's -- since 1999, the last Gallup poll, it's gone down considerably that -- the confidence of the people in both the media and in the military. It's not a drastic dip, but it is -- it is less confidence, and it's mainly because there's some perception issues on trust, on truth, on the flow of information.
DOBBS: You know, let's examine that. And General Grange, obviously, for all of your obvious talents and experience you are here, and you communicate to a broad public that requires your esoteric understanding of the military, as well as your military experience.
The fact is that it has -- this is a war in which we had embedded journalists with our troops. We have also -- and had remarkable journalism and cooperation with the military. This is also a time in which we've heard the secretary of defense repeatedly refer to the insurgency in Iraq as "dead-enders," as "thugs," and be dismissive of what turned out to be an extraordinarily powerful insurgency that some say, including those in the highest levels of our military, is as strong today as a year ago.
Is this an influence on those -- those gaps in credibility for both the national media and the U.S. military?
GRANGE: Lou, what I think is happening, it depends on what sources you use as an American citizen to get your information. As you know, on broadcasts, you get a small piece of information. Quite often, it's who, what, where, and when, and not a lot of depth on why and how.
You know, to really be balanced, I believe, and understanding of something like an insurgency, you have to read newspapers, you have to listen to radio, you have to watch television as well. All these different means. And then sometimes you get conflicting information or messages of what's going on. And so...
DOBBS: Well, let's take a -- let's take a conflict, General, here.
GRANGE: All right.
DOBBS: We have heard two generals say that they're preparing for a "significant draw-down" -- withdraw from U.S. troops from Iraq. At the same time, we have sent now in the course of the past 10 days, I believe, 2,200 troops from the 82nd Airborne, or are preparing to send that many. And at the same time, we're hearing the president of the United States saying that we're not going to pull down any further troops.
This is very confusing. And who's fault is that, the national media, or the top echelons of the U.S. military, or the political leaders over the Pentagon?
GRANGE: It all goes back to that answer and that question of why a particular incident or decision is being made. Now, they're both direct correct.
The military is planning for a draw-down, long term, over the next four years, let's say. In the short-term requirement, there is a plan to beef up boots on the ground to get through the constitution establishment and the elections in December.
And so you have a short-term plan and a long-term plan that both sides are talking about. They're doing both, actually.
DOBBS: Well, doing both is often a very difficult chore, particularly when one thing is sought, and that is victory and resolution to what is a very difficult military, as well as political crisis in Iraq.
As always, General David Grange, good to have you here.
GRANGE: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: When we continue, millions of dollars worth of crystal meth smuggled across the Mexican border now off America's streets. It's one of the rare successes. It's a massive bust, but still the meth crime wave is escalating. We'll be telling you about that.
And Mexico's outrageous plan to bring U.S. tourists to a violent border town. In fact, a town that is the focus of U.S. State Department tourist warnings.
Stay with us for that story and a great deal more.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight, one of the largest public school districts in the country is considering a proposal that is sure to cause outrage in many parts of the country. The Dallas school board is expected tonight to vote on whether to force many of its principals to learn and to speak Spanish.
Christine Romans reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Dallas school board trustee Joe May says it all started with an award presentation at Sam Houston Elementary School. Parents there were upset the ceremony was only in English.
That episode has morphed into a moment to require Dallas principals to learn Spanish. May says Spanish-speaking administrators will communicate better with parents, and that will improve children's education.
JOE MAY, DALLAS INDEP. SCHOOLS TRUSTEE: What I hope to accomplish is to make the system more acceptable to where they can deal with barriers that they often -- that they often have to encounter, and, therefore, be able to provide a better quality of education for that kid.
ROMANS: Seventy different languages are heard in these hallways, but this district is predominantly Hispanic, 30 percent black, six percent white, and one percent Asian. If this plan is approved, principals and schools with the majority of Hispanic students would have three years to learn Spanish.
Opponents say there's more to a principal's job than speaking a particular language.
ROSSI WALTER, DALLAS COUNCIL OF PTAS: If you have a principal who is compassionate towards their students, who can encourage their staff persons, and who can administer the affairs of the campus effectively, then what you'll have is a positive student experience, regardless of whether the principal speaks Spanish or not.
ROMANS: The Texas Elementary Principal's Association agrees, saying, "Schools are already moving in this direction. It's like trying to mandate common sense."
If the measure is approved, the Principals Association says it hopes its members will be allowed to transfer if they want. Much of the opposition to the plan concerns the impact on overworked and scarce educators, and there's no evidence that students in schools with Spanish-speaking principals do any better. An internal school district memo from June shows only negligible difference in math and reading scores.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS: Educators and teachers unions are watching this one closely. If Dallas passes this, it sets a precedence that could change the face of education in all ethnic neighborhoods.
And with many urban neighborhoods already facing shortages of qualified administrators, a recommendation to speak Spanish or Cantonese or Vietnamese, whatever the language, could have a chilling effect, these educators say, on recruiting and retaining top talent in these schools.
DOBBS: Well, it could certainly do that, Christine, as you report. But also, it is absolutely upside down. English is the language of this nation. The suggestion that students not learn English and not be capable of translating for their parents, or their parents assimilating into this culture, is utter madness. And for a public school district, the trustee, Joe May, is he out of his mind?
ROMANS: He really thinks these students are going to have better test scores if the principal can speak in Spanish to the parents.
DOBBS: What about the teachers? Must the teachers then speak Spanish? Because that is from whom they learn, not the principal.
ROMANS: Some of these teachers are already multilingual. The students are learning...
DOBBS: Oh, I think that's wonderful that they're multilingual.
ROMANS: But they're learning in English.
DOBBS: Exactly.
ROMANS: The whole thing is about the parents. It's about the parents. He wants to bring the parents into this equation.
DOBBS: That's wonderful.
ROMANS: And he wants to put the burden on the principal to learn the parents' language, not the parents to learn the principals' language.
DOBBS: If Dallas passes this madness, I -- this is just beyond the pale. It's an absurdity. An absolutely absurdity. Christine...
ROMANS: It will have big implications for other neighborhoods and other schools like this.
DOBBS: Rather than devoting energy and resources to teaching those young people English. Extraordinary.
Christine, thank you. Christine Romans.
We want to know your thoughts about this issue. I think I've made mine fairly clear. Forgive me for that.
Do you think the interests of society -- our society -- are best served by requiring public schools to teach students English or to teach principals Spanish? Please cast your vote at LouDobbs.com. We'll have the results here coming up in a moment.
Now to another story that greatly affects our nation's young people. The DEA today announced a major bust of the dangerous and highly addictive drug known as meth. Meth is considered, by the way, the number one law enforcement problem in the war on drugs. This meth was discovered in San Diego, but federal agents say it was smuggled across the border with Mexico.
Casey Wian reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): This gang and drug- infested San Diego neighborhood the site of a major bust of methamphetamine, other drugs, guns and cash. Over the past two weeks, the DEA and local law enforcement arrested 45 people on drug and weapons charges, mostly relating to the sale of meth imported from Mexico. WILLIAM LANSDOWNE, SAN DIEGO POLICE CHIEF: It's a six-month investigation that involved many of the officers you see in this very room today. Courageous efforts on their part working together to do one thing, to rid this city of the cancer of gang violence and the cancer of drugs in this city.
WIAN: Fifteen pounds of meth, smaller amounts of cocaine and heroin were seized. Nine children were taken to child protective services. Investigators tracked the drugs across the border to the federally-subsidized MeadowBrook (ph) housing project. Officials say it was easy for smugglers to sneak the meth into this country.
DAMON MOSLER, SAN DIEGO COUNTY D.A.'S OFFICE: Most of it was being made in Mexico and brought up to this area and other areas of San Diego, but these people were delivering it easily to the MeadowBrook (ph) area, dealing it regularly there as well.
WIAN: Like this meth, about two-thirds of the United States' supply comes from Mexico. Mexico's attorney general admitted Wednesday his nation's federal police agency has been infiltrated by drug cartels. And eight Mexican judges are now under police protection after death threats from drug smugglers.
Also, U.S. Senator Dianne Feinstein this summer demanded that Mexican President Vicente Fox investigate his country's massive intake of pseudoephedrine. Mexico imports nearly twice the amount of the substance it needs to make cold medicines, mostly from India and China. The rest to drug cartels for meth production.
Feinstein has received no response to her request.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: Investigators say more arrests in the drug smuggling operation are likely. And 15 of the 45 people taken into custody so far are, you guessed it, Lou, illegal aliens.
DOBBS: Casey, it is remarkable, the failure, despite the calls, if you can call it that, from Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff this week to have border stability. On nearly every principle issue, whether it is the war on terror, the war on drugs, our illegal immigration crisis, it all begins with security at the border. Securing a border, not "stabilizing it."
What is the reaction of the DEA there? What are they recommending?
WIAN: They are recommending more cooperation from Mexico, which they're getting very little of so far. They say Mexico is starting to show some interest in cooperating on this war on drugs, but they're so far behind that it's going to be a long time before they catch up -- Lou.
DOBBS: They're beginning to show some interest?
WIAN: That's what they say. DOBBS: Oh, amazing. Casey, thank you very much. Casey Wian.
In Yuma, Arizona, a group of violent illegal aliens attacked a Border Patrol helicopter, and they forced the pilot of that helicopter to make an emergency landing. The U.S. Border Patrol says those illegal aliens threw rocks at the helicopter similar to this one that patrols the border with Mexico. One rock, we're told, the size of a baseball, was thrown into the rotor blades, damaged one of them. The pilot was not injured, nor was the U.S. Border Patrol observer with him.
After that incident, 17 of the illegal aliens were arrested. Some are believed to be alien smugglers. The Border Patrol reports 10 others escaped apprehension.
Tonight, one Mexican town at the center of what has been a raging drug war has decided to remake itself as a tourist attraction. In Nuevo Laredo, located just across the border from Laredo, Texas, more than 119 people have been gunned down in drug-related battles this year alone, including two shooting deaths this week. But this was not enough to stop the tourism board in Nuevo Laredo from sending buses to San Antonio, Texas, to pick up tourists for day tours. Never mind that the U.S. State Department has issued travel warnings urging Americans to stay away from Nuevo Laredo and other crime-ridden border towns in northern Mexico, where more than 40 Americans have been kidnapped over this past year. Nuevo Laredo says all its tours will be accompanied by a police motorcycle escort. Reassuring in the extreme.
Another constitutional deadline missed in Iraq. U.S. casualties are rising. Former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger will join me next. We'll be talking about the American strategy in Iraq.
And Hurricane Katrina, headed straight for the most populated areas of Florida. We'll have the very latest from our correspondents in southeastern Florida, and we'll be talking with the head of the National Hurricane Center about where and when this storm will hit. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Hurricane Katrina is now a category one hurricane. It's gaining strength as it heads for the Florida coast. Winds just about 75 miles an hour. That storm, we're told, could hit the storm early this evening.
Joining me now is Max Mayfield. He is the director of the National Hurricane Center in Miami. Max, good to have you here.
MAX MAYFIELD, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER: Thank you.
DOBBS: Those splendid green and blue pictures there, showing us clearly this thing is right off the coast. When do you expect it to hit?
MAYFIELD: Well, it actually is hitting as we speak here. The system is strengthening, and it is making landfall as a category one hurricane. The center of the eye is right here on the Miami-Dade County/Broward County border. The winds are about 75 to 80 miles per hour sustained, which is a category one. We had a wind gust report from Port Everglades of 92 miles per hour.
This is not a very good night to be driving around at all in Broward County or the northern portion of Miami-Dade County.
DOBBS: Our reporters reporting along that 150-mile stretch there, suggesting that people are paying much careful attention to the warnings that they receive from you, and are not out on the streets, and that's good news. Evacuations have been carried out. But what can those who are in their homes and caught in the path of this storm, what can they expect in the way of rainfall and winds from this point forward?
MAYFIELD: Well, little bit of good news here. This is not a major hurricane certainly, and the strongest winds are confined to this ring around the eye right there. So it's a fairly limited area. Unfortunately, it's going through a fairly populated area, and the winds can also be stronger aloft in some of those high-rise condominiums. They are really going to get some strong winds.
So the wind tonight, limited area; the rainfall is going to be with us for a couple of days. And with the slow motion, we're really expecting some significant flooding. And then unfortunately, even though it will weaken as it goes across the Florida peninsula, it will come out into the Gulf of Mexico tomorrow afternoon, and in a couple of days will be headed up most likely into the northeastern Gulf, that area that has been impacted by so many storms recently. So those folks may very well have to go through the drill again.
DOBBS: So even as this storm passes over Florida, the -- it may not be over by a long shot.
MAYFIELD: It's not over for several more days, and we think that even though it will weaken over the peninsula of Florida, once it gets in the Gulf, it has a very good chance to come back and be a strong hurricane, and people there in the northeastern Gulf really need to pay close attention to Katrina.
DOBBS: Max Mayfield, as always, thank you.
MAYFIELD: Thank you, sir.
DOBBS: Tonight, an alarming espionage investigation is under way in Washington, D.C. FBI officials want to know whether communist Chinese spies are hacking into U.S. government computer systems. There is evidence that they are doing so, stealing our country's military secrets.
Lisa Sylvester reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Hackers have been increasingly trying to break into the Pentagon's computer networks. In 2002, there were 40,000 attempts. In 2004, the number doubled to 79,000. The attacks are being launched from Chinese Web sites.
The Department of Defense won't say if the cyber intruders are operating from China or merely using the country as a transit point. But Michael Wessel, a member of the U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission, is convinced the Chinese military is behind the cyber attacks.
MICHAEL WESSEL, U.S.-CHINA COMMISSION: These are highly proficient hackers. They know what they're doing. There seems to be some direction in terms of how they're operating. And ultimately, this can be a major threat to our military capabilities.
SYLVESTER: The Pentagon says at no time has there been a successful intrusion in a classified network, but hackers have compromised other networks. In one intrusion, reported by "Federal Computer Week," a Chinese hacker broke into a military test system and downloaded information of a future command and control system.
Other U.S. agencies have also been attacked, including the Departments of Energy and Homeland Security. The goal may not be simply to spy on the United States, but to bring down a government network, if China ever goes to war with the U.S.
FRANK TIBONI, FEDERAL COMPUTER WEEK: Our adversaries realize they cannot take on the powerful U.S. military on the battlefield. So one way to even the battlefield is to exploit our networks, to create a more even one.
SYLVESTER: The FBI has been investigating the incidents, but finding out who is behind the spying is difficult. One U.S. government official said, you can't just jump on a plane and go to China and start questioning people.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: And the Pentagon is relying more and more on 21st century technology, from GPS-guided missiles to encrypted communication on the battlefield. If China or another adversary were able to disable those systems, it could cripple the U.S. military -- Lou.
DOBBS: The FBI, its investigation, any sense as to how soon they will have firm evidence and a conclusion of what they now suspect?
SYLVESTER: Well, they're being very tight-lipped, because they give us the standard answer that they don't want to compromise methods and sources and the like.
DOBBS: Right.
SYLVESTER: But we know that this investigation has been going on for a couple of years, but it is very difficult, because they don't have the cooperation of China -- Lou. DOBBS: Well, the Chinese seem to be doing fine without the cooperation of the United States. One can't understand why it wouldn't be reciprocal. Lisa, thank you very much. Lisa Sylvester.
Coming up, my special guest tonight is Henry Kissinger. Also, I'll be talking to the chairman of the federal commission voting to close dozens of military facilities across the country. Stay with us.
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DOBBS: As we reported earlier, a federal commission voting to close dozens of military facilities including one of the country's best known and historic military hospitals, Walter Reed Army Medical Center. I'm joined by the chairman of the Base Realignment and Closure Commission, former Secretary of Veterans Affairs Anthony Principi.
Good to have you with us. Do you believe Congress is going to accept these recommendations or are your decisions, do you believe, in your best guess, final?
ANTHONY PRINCIPI, BASE REALIGNMENT & CLOSURE COMMISSION: Well, I believe they will be final. We're doing a comprehensive assessment of all of the recommended base closures and realignments. And we revert to Secretary of Defense in part thus far. And we've approved some of those recommendations. And I think in the final analysis, they will be accepted.
DOBBS: And is it your sense, because I think there's obviously the economic concern on the part of states, there's concern about the overall military approach being taken by the Pentagon in these recommendations and your recommendations, that being the commission's recommendation, it looks like there's going to be a pretty strong political reaction here on a number of base closings. Are you expecting that?
PRINCIPI: Well, I think so. In part, those bases that the commission has decided to concur with the recommendations of the Secretary of Defense to close or to realign, I'm sure there will somebody reaction. On the other hand, we've decided to reverse the secretary and keep bases like New London Submarine Base and Portsmouth Naval Shipyard open as well as several others.
So, I think it's mixed. But I think overall I think this is important to our national security that our military resources be used in a way that, indeed, enhances our military value and does not detract from it.
DOBBS: Basically, your commission voting to, in the case of New England, taking note of the fact that the United States will need more naval power and not less, despite the recommendations of the defense secretary. Walter Reed, a venerable institution, important to the care of our veterans, and our soldiers returning from Iraq save -- it's going to cost a billion to save $300 million over 20 years. That's the sort of thing that people are scratching their head about, saying why in the world bother? PRINCIPI: We have two major medical center in the Washington area, Lou. Walter Reed Army Hospital and Bethesda Naval Hospital. And the recommendation, really, is to maintain Walter Reed at a new site and build a new hospital for the 21st century.
The men and women coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan are getting great care, but it is an older facility and this plan is to modernize it. And we will always have Walter Reed. It will be at a new location in Washington, but it'll be state-of-the-art for 21st century.
DOBBS: Well, I'll talk with Senator John Thune in just a few moments. Mr. Chairman, do you have any good news I could share with him about Ellsworth in South Dakota?
PRINCIPI: Well, we're giving that one a lot of thought. You know, we have a big B1 bomber base at Ellsworth in South Dakota and the recommendation is to close it and consolidate down in Texas. But we're studying this one very carefully to make sure it is the right decision. Tomorrow morning, we will be talking about it at the commission. And we'll be voting tomorrow. So, I can assure Senator Thune that we're independent and open.
DOBBS: Thank you very much. As always, Anthony Principi, the distinguished former secretary of Veterans Affairs, good to have you here.
Coming up next, Republican Senator John Thune. As I said, he'll be here to talk about the political battle of his life so far, a battle that's pitting him against his own party in fact. The former secretary of state Henry Kissinger joins me to talk about Iraq and what are becoming rising calls for withdraw. He's our guest next. Stay with us.
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DOBBS: I'm joined now by Senator John Thune. The issue is very simple, Ellsworth. During his 2004 campaign, Senator Thune argued he was in a better position to save that base than -- than Tom Daschle, the senior senator for years in South Dakota.
After Thune defeated Daschle, it was very easy for the administration to take a look and decide to close the base. It's not easy being a Republican right now, is it Senator Thune?
SEN. JOHN THUNE, (R) SOUTH DAKOTA: Well, what we decided we were going to have to do in this situation, Lou, is make our arguments based on the merits and qualities of our base. And we've done that. We've made a very strong case before the commission. We believe that this commission is independent minded. Their going to look at this objectively. They're taking the data and all the facts that have been presented to them and our hope is that we've been able to persuade five of those nine commissioners to take Ellsworth off the base closure list. We will probably know that sometime tomorrow morning.
DOBBS: Anthony Principi -- I asked him just before you joined us if he had good news for Senator Thune, and he said that he's open and independent, his entire commission. Are you reassured?
THUNE: Well, you know, I think this commission is -- they want to do the right thing. And they have been open and independent. I think they've demonstrated that with the decisions that they've made already, that they are not a rubber stamp for the Pentagon, that they are trying to take this information, process it, digest it, make decisions that are in the best interest of our national security.
My view on this, of course, is that the country needs Ellsworth Air Force Base just like South Dakota needs Ellsworth Air Force Base. And we believe we've made solid military value...
DOBBS: What's your best argument do you think to keep -- I'm sorry, Senator. We're just about out of time. But what's your best argument, do you think, to keep Ellsworth open?
THUNE: We believe that it just makes far more sense to have your assets distributed at two locations instead of one. That it presents an inherent security risk to have all your eggs in one basket as well as a number of operational problems that have been documented. So, that's our primary argument. I could give you all the details, Lou, but you probably don't have time for it.
DOBBS: We don't.
THUNE: But we made that case for the BRAC commission.
DOBBS: We don't Senator. But we do have time for you to give us your best guess, do you think you're going to prevail?
THUNE: We're hopeful. I've said this before, I'm too Norwegian to be optimistic, but I think this is a fluid process and clearly that decision won't come until tomorrow. So, I'm certainly not going to make any predictions tonight.
DOBBS: You'll presumably stay in the Republican Party if things go against you?
THUNE: You know, yes. I don't think there's any fear of that. But certainly I'll feel a lot better about it if we're off the list tomorrow.
DOBBS: Senator John Thune, as always good to have you here. Good luck.
THUNE: Thanks, Lou.
DOBBS: Still ahead, my special guest, former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger. Stay with us.
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DOBBS: Taking a look now at some of your thoughts. Paul in Lake City Florida wrote to say: "Illegal is Illegal. To approve of ways to accommodate illegal immigrants is to condone violation of our laws. This has to stop." You would think. And Ferrin from Cumby, Texas: "not only should the governors call up the National Guard, they should recall them from Iraq also."
Nancy in Gilbert, Arizona: "If my tax dollars can be used to defend Iraq, why can't they be used to defend my state? The Arizona National Guard has been sent to Iraq while we are being invaded on a daily basis. Is anyone paying attention to you, Lou?" Yes. I think that a lot of people are beginning to pay attention.
And Troy from Jackson, South Carolina: "Do you think that if American citizens started going to Mexico illegally, the Mexican government would start printing all their documents, food labels, etc. in English?" Good question.
And many of you wrote in about the staggering number of students dropping out of our high schools all across the country. Robert in Sparks, Nevada, saying, "With that many drop-outs, why is it that we need all that cheap foreign labor?"
And from Des Moines, Iowa, Tom writes to say, "Reading between the lines of back-to-back stories the other night with drop-out rates as high as they are, what difference does it make if schools are teaching evolution or intelligent design? Johnny can't read the differences if he's in class at all."
We hope that is a rare exception to the rule. We love hearing from you. Send us your thoughts at LOUDOBBS.COM.
And In recent months -- turning now to Iraq -- there have been widening calls for a significant pullout of U.S. troops. There have also been suggestions that Iraq has become another Vietnam. Joining me now, the distinguished former Secretary of State, Henry Kissinger.
Dr. Kissinger, in your recent op-ed piece you argue that orchestrating a withdraw from Iraq could be more difficult than even in Vietnam, why so?
HENRY KISSINGER, FMR. SECRETARY OF STATE: It's a different problem. In Vietnam there were two phases to the war: A gorilla war and a war between regular units.
We won the guerrilla war completely. The guerrillas were almost totally wiped out by 1971. Then there was a war between regular units in which Americans did not participate, except with air power.
In Iraq, it is a guerrilla war almost entirely, in fact, entirely a guerrilla war and those are long and difficult and harder to calculate than wars among mainline units.
DOBBS: Senator Chuck Hagel, a Republican, saying that in his judgment, that this is becoming a quagmire like Vietnam. What are your thoughts?
KISSINGER: Well, I don't know what he means by 'like Vietnam,' because I think in the end, we defeated ourselves with our domestic divisions in Vietnam. In Iraq, there are criteria that everybody seems to agree on. We need a government that has stability and we need to be able to control the guerrillas. When these two objectives are achieved, we should withdraw and as the Iraqis are more capable of defeating the guerrillas, we should reduce our forces. Everybody agrees on these criteria.
DOBBS: Are you hopeful...
KISSINGER: But we don't yet know when they are reached.
DOBBS: Exactly. Are you hopeful that the Iraqi constitution will turn out to be both voted upon and a significant turning point in the future of the Iraqi nation, one that can be maintained?
KISSINGER: Well, as Americans, we think of a constitution as then settling all the issues because we were a fairly uniform country when our constitution was created.
Iraq is divided into these groups and many subgroups that have been fighting each other for hundreds of years and they're not going to go to courts after a constitution is passed.
I think failure of the constitution would be a big setback. Having the constitution creates a framework from which we can operate, but it will be a long way and by itself, the constitution will not solve the problem.
DOBBS: Not solve the problem and President Bush has continued to equate the war in Iraq with the global war on terrorism. What would be your counsel to President Bush as he strikes that kind of connection, if you will?
KISSINGER: I agree with President Bush that war in Iraq now is the main battle in the war against -- well, a principle battle in the war against terrorism, but I think two things have to happen. The debate within the administration about rate of withdraw, even though each of them can be explained on its merits, should be ended and there should be one clear line to which people can relate.
And secondly, some explanation of how the war will be won to which people can relate, is also important. But I basically agree with the direction in which the president is going. But those two measures seem to me to be needed.
DOBBS: Henry Kissinger, as always, good to have you here. We appreciate your insights.
KISSINGER: Thanks.
DOBBS: The results now of our poll tonight: 97 percent of you say the interest of society, our society, are best served by requiring public schools to teach students English, rather than teaching principals Spanish.
Still ahead, we'll have a preview of tomorrow's broadcast. Please stay with us.
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DOBBS: As of tonight, Judith Miller, the Pulitzer Prize-winning "New York Times" reporter has been the prison for 50 days for protecting her confidential sources in the White House-CIA leak case.
Thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us here tomorrow. For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" starts right now. Rich Sanchez sitting in for Anderson Cooper -- Rick?
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