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Nancy Grace
Kalpoe Brothers Rearrested
Aired August 26, 2005 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news in Aruba, two men re- arrested in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway, the Kalpoe brothers, Deepak and Satish Kalpoe, back in jail tonight on suspicion of rape and murder. They are behind bars right along with the prime suspect, Aruban judge`s son Joran Van Der Sloot.
Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace, and I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Tonight: Emory University sophomore Shannon Melendi vanished 11 years ago after a local softball game. Tonight, softball umpire Colvyn "Butch" Hinton III on trial for murder. Jailhouse snitches sing to the jury that Hinton confessed the demon inside made him kill the girl.
But first tonight, breaking news out of Aruba, Deepak and Satish Kalpoe in jail tonight. Prosecutors openly state the men are suspected of the rape and murder of 18-year-old Natalee Holloway. This was to be Natalee`s first week of college classes, pre-med, University of Alabama.
Tonight, Natalee`s uncle, Paul Reynolds, in Aruba, Helen Lejuez, attorney for the Twitty family, Jossy Mansur, managing director and editor of "Diario" newspaper. In Atlanta, veteran trial lawyer Renee Rockwell. West Tampa, Florida, defense attorney Joe Espicopo. Atlanta, prosecutor Eleanor Dixon. And in New York, psychoanalyst Dr. Bethany Marshall. Also with us, "A Current Affair" correspondent Harris Faulkner.
Straight to Harris. Bring us up to date, friend.
HARRIS FAULKNER, "A CURRENT AFFAIR": First of all, Nancy, I want to say that picking up the Kalpoe brothers is not necessarily ground-breaking information, but we knew it was going to happen sooner or later. The timing of it is kind of interesting, though, because we`re about a week out before they would have to let Joran Van Der Sloot, the key prime suspect in this case, go from prison because they haven`t charged him with anything yet.
I talked with a police source today, Nancy, who told me a couple of really surprising things. You`ve been wondering what new evidence might they have had in this case. Well, he shared with me that they`ve been wiretapping these boys over the past few weeks. They`ve been watching closely the Internet cafe...
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa! Wait a minute! My prayers -- my prayers...
FAULKNER: It`s new and shocking...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: My prayers have been answered! They ran a wiretap in Aruba. OK, go ahead, Harris.
FAULKNER: All right. So also, this police source telling me -- and I know you`re excited about that, Nancy, because you`ve been waiting for kind of that smoking gun, and maybe this gets us closer. We don`t know that. But the other thing is, they were watching very closely the Internet cafe where we know Deepak was still keeping a job. You know, he opened that shop yesterday. That shop, that Internet cafe, Zyber Zone (ph), was supposed to open today. It didn`t open because Deepak couldn`t go to work because they arrested him this morning. So then the shop opens later, at about noon. We called an employee there to see if, in fact, they had opened late because Deepak was supposed to open. The guy said, Well, I can`t discuss the store schedule with you, but you do the math.
I mean, really, they have been watching these guys. It was just a matter of time.
You know, here`s another thing, too, Nancy. Some people are wondering whether or not that gardener who first they wanted to talk with about possibly seeing people who fit the description of Joran Van Der Sloot and the Kalpoe brothers in a car near the beach, possibly with Natalee Holloway, the night in question here. Then that guy fled to Colombia. Maybe his testimony, getting that on record, might have helped in terms of pursuing the Kalpoe brothers. But at the end of the day, finally, they`ve rearrested these guys in pursuit of more information.
This police source also filled me in a little bit on what their lives are going to be like, and I thought this was interesting. They`re going to let them sit for a little bit, until about 11:00 o`clock tonight, and then they`re going to go in and interrogate.
And I`m curious to know what Beth is going to have to say about that from a psychological point because these kids, from what I`ve been told, are going to get a chance to get acclimated behind bars, get to remember what that feels like, that lack of freedom, and then hit hard with interrogation.
GRACE: Well, Harris, I appreciate your report, but you refer to them as kids. One`s 18, one`s 21.
FAULKNER: Well, I`m getting older.
GRACE: At 18 years old, my father was on a battleship in the Pacific, so I don`t necessarily refer to them as kids. But if you want to talk about youth, Natalee was just 18 years old!
FAULKNER: Excellent point.
GRACE: The University of Alabama has kept her spot open there, has kept her scholarship open for her. This was to be her first week of pre- med at University of Alabama. Instead, they are looking tonight for her body.
I want to go out to Jossy Mansur with "Diario." Jossy, what time did the arrest occur?
JOSSY MANSUR, MANAGING EDITOR, "DIARIO": In the early morning hours, about 6:00 o`clock, Nancy.
GRACE: Jossy, what can you tell me about it?
MANSUR: Well, they`ve been on the list to be re-arrested for a long time now, for at least a week-and-a-half. The police were just waiting for the right time. They had to put all their documentation together. They had some paperwork to fill in. And then they proceed to arrest them on the basis of -- and this is what I understand from the police, from our journalist sources. They re-arrested them on the basis of admissions these two and Joran had made in the beginning of this case, when they were first interrogated, where there were admissions of sexual assault.
GRACE: Take a listen to this, Jossy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE "JUG" TWITTY, NATALEE`S STEPFATHER: We`re happy, obviously, that -- if it`s true that they`ve arrested Satish and Deepak, Beth and I are very, very happy because that`s what we wanted. I mean, they have -- they have some answers.
BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, NATALEE`S MOTHER: We felt early on, as early as May 31, that these boys should have been arrested then, on that day. Just really encouraged by this news and just -- we just want to wait, though, until we get some further updates from them before we come forward with any more information on it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Let`s go to Natalee Holloway`s uncle. Paul Reynolds is with us. Paul, what`s the family reaction? I know some people say this is not ground-breaking, but I, as a trial lawyer, believe it is. This could crack the case wide open, if these two start singing.
Oh, we`ve lost Paul Reynolds. I want to go back to Jossy Mansur with "Diario." Jossy, do we know where those wiretaps were? Were they on the Kalpoe brothers` home, their cell? What were they tapping?
MANSUR: You know, I don`t know. This is the first news that I have about tapping them. I know they were being followed day and night. They kept a close track on them physically. But I have no knowledge of wiretapping the two boys. I couldn`t even begin to tell you.
GRACE: Quickly, to Renee Rockwell. Renee, here`s the thing about wiretaps, and I`m anxious to find out whether it works the same way in Aruba. Of course, you have to have a warrant for a wiretap. But here`s the kicker. You can have a wiretap or a bug in a public spot. For instance, you can tap a public pay phone. You can put a bug on the wall at the Internet cafe. That`s commonly done. I`ve even had a case where we had a bug at a cemetery, Renee.
So you know, you`d think these two would know enough to dummy up, but just as so many other criminals do, Renee, they yakked.
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: They yak, and you can imagine that they`re sitting in jail. You know they`re going to be separated. They`re probably going to play a good cop/bad cop on them. They`re going to try to trick them with stories that maybe one is giving against the other. And it`s probably going to come down to somebody cracking, and the truth may come out.
But if this is a new story by Joran that`s land these guys back in jail, it will probably be story number 23. So still no forensic evidence.
GRACE: You know, that makes me choke every time I hear Joran Van Der Sloot`s 23 different versions of the truth about what happened to Natalee Holloway.
Elizabeth, do I have Natalee`s uncle with me yet? Paul Reynolds, welcome. What`s the reaction within the family to the re-arrest of the Kalpoe brothers?
PAUL REYNOLDS, NATALEE`S UNCLE: Well, of course, we`re very happy about this development. This is something we`ve been working on for weeks. You know, we`re -- we`ve felt from the beginning that there was information that the investigators had that was incriminating. Certainly, we knew that the Kalpoe brothers had more information, and we think they were involved.
And you know, we`re appreciative the investigative team has moved in this direction (INAUDIBLE) bringing the Kalpoe brothers in and questioning them. We believe and hope that they`re putting together the pieces of the puzzle that will help us find the answers and solve this crime, and so we are...
GRACE: Paul -- Paul, what have the authorities told you about why now, why today? Do you know anything about possible wiretaps or bugs on the Kalpoe brothers?
REYNOLDS: We don`t have any specific information. You know, we`re -- we -- I was looking at the information that was gathered in the beginning. You know, we`ve always felt it was important to go back to the very beginning, the night that Beth arrived on the island, the day that Natalee was missing, and look at the statements that were made, and you know, where people were and what they were saying. And we feel that is the strongest clue. And the new investigative team, we understand, has gone back to the beginning. They`re taking a second look at things (INAUDIBLE) they`re reevaluating the (INAUDIBLE) that they`ve had now. And they are saying...
GRACE: I still say it`s the wiretaps.
REYNOLDS: They are saying there`s new information, which we hope will strengthen that case.
GRACE: Very quickly, to Eleanor Dixon. Eleanor, you and I have both gotten plenty of wiretaps in our time. You know, you would think at this day and age, people would be -- especially defendants, suspects, that have lawyers. They know not to talk. But Eleanor, law enforcement can be so innovative and so creative as to where they put a bug, where they put a wiretap. Pay phones, cell phones, the business phone can be tapped pursuant to warrant, public places, such as restaurants. I`ve had a wiretap not only at a cemetery, but I`ve heard of one on a fire escape in a Mob case.
So long story short, I say, if wiretaps were involved, don`t you know these two Kalpoe brothers have been cooking up a story from the get-go?
ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Well, I would certainly think that would be true, Nancy. And I think it`s interesting because maybe because of their ages, they`re more eager to talk. They don`t realize the gravity of what they may say to each other and to other people. And most people just think, especially defendants, Hey, it won`t happen to me. Nobody`s going to find out that I`m talking. And you know what they say about a guilty conscience. Maybe they just can`t keep it to themselves. They have to talk about it, in a sense.
GRACE: Harris Faulkner, Jossy just told us these two had been being followed. I can just imagine them scooting along, looking in the rearview mirror and thinking, Oh, we`re safe! Let`s talk. You know, another thing -- and I`ve found this phenomena to be true in many, many criminal cases. Very often, you will find suspects going back to the location.
FAULKNER: Well, you know, Nancy, we had a producer who walked into the Internet cafe a few days ago. And Mike Torgeson (ph), our producer, was part of our team Aruba, as we called ourselves when we were down there. He walked in. He talked to Deepak, one on one with him. Deepak would not go on camera. He said first, You got to talk to my attorney, but then he opened up a little bit. He said, Look, I know we`re being watched, my brother and I. We consider ourselves to be suspects still, and we know we`ve got to be careful about what we say and do.
So when I say wiretaps, from the source that I have, we could be talking cell phones. There are a lot of different areas that you described. But more importantly, this also has to do with who they`re talking with. You know, there was a third suspect, a new guy arrested in the case today along with the Kalpoe brothers. We don`t have his name. His initials are FZA, as released by the prosecutor`s office. We do hear that there`s a possibility that that witness could have been picked up in connection with something that was overheard or perhaps listened to.
GRACE: Let`s go to the Twitty family attorney, Helen Lejuez. Welcome, Helen. Now, you`re a former prosecutor in Aruba. Helen, tell me, how do you get wiretaps there in Aruba? Is it pursuant to warrant? And also, what sort of new evidence, Helen, do you think prosecutors are referring to?
HELEN LEJUEZ, TWITTY FAMILY ATTORNEY: I don`t think this has to do with a lot of wiretapping. I do believe it has to do with bringing forth the new evidence. It has to do with the case approaching the 60 days and that they are adding new evidence so they can have the case going.
GRACE: OK, what new evidence, Helen?
LEJUEZ: The rape case.
GRACE: OK. You said new evidence. What "new evidence" regarding Natalee Holloway do you think prosecutors have?
LEJUEZ: Right now, they`re talking about a gang rape. So when we talk about a gang rape, we talk about a gang. The gang consisted of three of them. Right?
GRACE: Right.
LEJUEZ: Even though -- even though maybe it`s not out that the other suspect that`s in jail right now will be added to the gang, he is part of the gang.
GRACE: OK, let me go quickly back to Jossy Mansur with "Diario." Jossy, our sources say that we do believe wiretaps were involved. Jossy, are you hearing the same information?
MANSUR: About wiretapping?
GRACE: Yes.
MANSUR: No. No, I haven`t.
GRACE: Well, then, what do you that is the new evidence?
MANSUR: I just said it, and I`ll explain it again. From what I understand from the sources that we have at the newspaper, the police went back to square one. They know they have a tough case to prove at this point, a murder, first degree or whatever. Then they went back. They went to square one. They reviewed everything that was on the table, and then they decided that with the evidence they already have, that it`s based on the admissions that all three of them made to the police during those days of interrogation, that they have a sufficiently strong case to re-arrest them and take them to court on charges of sexual assault.
GRACE: Quick break, everybody. We`ll all be right back. We are live in Aruba.
Tonight, Supreme Court watch. Hearings set to begin on John Roberts. He is President Bush`s nominee to the U.S. Supreme Court. Liberal groups gearing up to fight this appointment, pushing to examine Roberts`s record on privacy rights, Affirmative Action, abortion. Retiring Justice O`Connor long a swing vote. Still others dismiss all the criticism, firmly supporting Roberts and pointing out minority groups should not be lumped together. Whoever is confirmed faces critical issues: abortion, gay marriage, Internet-related questions, and of course, the U.S. fight on terrorism.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Why did the "E" have to die? There you see, Satish and Deepak Kalpoe headed just where they belong, back to jail. Breaking news out of Aruba. Deepak and Satish Kalpoe, long suspected in the disappearance of 18-year-old American girl Natalee Holloway, behind bars tonight. In just a few hours, they begin questioning, re-questioning.
Back to Helen Lejuez. She is an Aruban attorney, and the Twitty family attorney, as well. Helen, you were telling us about rape allegations. Go ahead, dear.
LEJUEZ: Well, that`s what has been added right now, and they`re talking about gang raping. So when we`re talking about gang raping, we`re talking about a gang. The gang consisted, when this case began, of the three young men. One has been added today. Might be possible he belongs to the gang.
GRACE: Now, Helen...
LEJUEZ: Although, there is another allegation.
GRACE: Helen, how long will it take for formal charges to come down, if they do? And also, Helen, how will the arrest of the Kalpoe brothers affect the case against Joran Van Der Sloot, the chief suspect? He`s set to be released on September 4.
LEJUEZ: That`s not been set yet. It`s the judge to decide if he`s going to be released on September the 4th. What happens on September the 4th is the 60 days are up. But still, they have another 30 days, according to the law. The prosecutor will ask for the 30 days. The judge will grant them or not.
GRACE: Very quickly, back to Harris Faulkner. I know the questioning is not beginning immediately. Actually, you know what? Let me throw this to our psychoanalyst, Bethany Marshall. Bethany, why the delay in questioning them?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Well, I wondered that myself because, you know, these boys, unlike Joran, they don`t have a father who`s a law enforcement official backing them up. And I think they should have hit up these boys when they`re first in jail. They were arrested at 5:30 this morning, hit them up right away while they`re still traumatized.
These boys -- or young adults, as you just clarified -- have not been motivated to tell the truth by victim empathy, by the anguish on Beth Twitty`s face. The only thing that`s going to motivate them is sheer terror, and I think they need to be told that they will be held to the highest standards of the law in terms of punishment if they do not come out with the accurate story.
GRACE: Of course, Joe Episcopo, veteran defense attorney, there is no death penalty in Aruba. They are under the Dutch form of government. What do you think brought these new arrests, Joe?
JOE EPISCOPO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think it`s a combination of things. I always advocated that if they had let Joran out, they would have got a wiretap on him, too, because he would have talked. But basically, you have this new suspect. I`ve heard him named Freddy. He`s the guy that takes pictures for what`s called the "pimp gang." Three young ladies have been identified as potential victims of date rape. One has given a statement, Two are reluctant because of this publicity.
I think the combination of all that is where we got today. Now, this guy Freddy, he won`t be allowed to have a lawyer for several days. He`s the guy they got to question. But you can`t go in there and threaten him, like the psychologist says, to try to get a statement. It`s not going to be a very good statement if you threaten a guy. You have to make it somewhat voluntary for it to be meaningful.
GRACE: CNN still trying to confirm that the arrest of the fourth suspect is in connection with the Natalee Holloway case.
To Helen Lejuez. I know there are no juries in Aruba. There`s a panel of judges that make the decisions. But when it comes to confession or admitted -- or any type of admission, you guys don`t have, for instance, Miranda warnings. Everything a defendant, a suspect, says can come before this panel of judges, correct?
LEJUEZ: Yes. They -- before they are being heard by the police, they are informed that they have a right to remain silent. And if they are not informed of that, they cannot use that -- the declarations.
GRACE: Very quickly, to Jossy Mansur with "Diario" newspaper. Jossy, where were the Kalpoe brothers when they were arrested? Were they together? And please tell me they`re not housed in the same jail cell tonight.
MANSUR: You know, from what I understand it, they were arrested at home. They were both at home.
GRACE: And are they in the same cell tonight?
MANSUR: I think they are going to isolate them. Whether they have already isolated them, I don`t know. But the intention is, I understand from police sources, is to isolate them in different cells.
GRACE: OK, if the Aruban police are watching tonight, I know you get Headline News. Tip: Separate cells this time, OK? No handcuffing all the defendants together for a nice drive through the country so they can cook up a story.
We`ll all be right back. We are live in Aruba. Headline: Kalpoe brothers and another suspect arrested this morning.
Now to "Trial Tracking." Sandra Bieber -- remember her, the day care owner accused of killing a 1-year-old baby boy with a fatal dose of cold medicine? She takes the stand in her own defense, denying she force-fed the children cold medicine to make them shut up and take naps. Not only were drugs found in baby Dane Heggem`s system, the same drugs were found in the diapers of other children who went to the same day care. If convicted, Bieber faces 60 years behind bars.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Breaking news out of Aruba. Deepak and Satish Kalpoe back behind bars in connection with the disappearance of Natalee Holloway.
Very quickly, to Harris Faulkner. Please tell me these guys are not in the same facility with Joran Van Der Sloot and somehow communicating?
FAULKNER: Well, from what I understood earlier today, when I talked with my police sources, they`re going to be housed in the jail first and then possibly moved to prison. And you want to talk about letting them sit there for a while -- Nancy, I interviewed those two black security guards when they were first picked up, and they told me when they got out, they said, Harris, jail is bad. Prison is much more civilized. You have a much more government-like-run institution. Jail is pretty bad. So to let them sit there all day, kind of get reacquainted with the idea of, Oh, my goodness, look at this...
GRACE: Harris -- we`ll be right back with you, everybody. We`ve got to go to commercial break. We are live in Aruba. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SOPHIA CHOI, CNN HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR: Hello, I`m Sophia Choi, and here`s your "Headline Prime Newsbreak."
Hurricane Katrina has claimed seven lives in Florida and left parts of the Sunshine State under floodwaters. Forecasters say it could reach Category 4 status before coming back again somewhere near Louisiana or Mississippi.
One lucky family in Florida is doing well tonight after a dramatic rescue. When Edward and Tina Larson and their three kids didn`t turn up from a boat trip, friends called authorities. The family was located and rescued today by the Coast Guard. The whole family is now reported to be in good condition.
President Bush`s popularity has sunk to the lowest levels of his presidency, and that`s according to the Gallup poll. New poll results put the president`s approval rating at 40 percent. That`s the lowest figure in his presidency. The same poll gauged overall satisfaction with the way things are going in the U.S. at 34 percent, the lowest since 1996.
That`s the news for now. I`m Sophia Choi. Now back to NANCY GRACE.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, MOTHER OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY: We`ve known from day one...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Most probably a crime had been committed...
B. TWITTY: Deepak and Satish Kalpoe are way deeply involved in this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He said no, no, no, no, mama. We didn`t do anything.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My client maintains his innocence.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I should have been worried, yes.
GEORGE "JUG" TWITTY, STEPFATHER OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY: I don`t understand why it`s taking so long for them to break these boys.
B. TWITTY: Just desperate for answers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He said his name was Deepak. He said he was here for the missing girl`s case.
B. TWITTY: Deepak and Satish say they last left and saw Natalee and Joran.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Deepak was waiting in the car.
B. TWITTY: Deepak and Satish Kalpoe, that the beach trip, that never happened.
DAVE HOLLOWAY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S FATHER: All of them know more than they`re saying.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you sure? Are you sure? Are you sure you guys didn`t do anything?
B. TWITTY: He was telling me the lie.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I should have been worried, yes.
B. TWITTY: That he couldn`t even face me at the Internet cafe.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was arrest. He was arrest.
HOLLOWAY: They know what they did with Natalee.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Joran Van Der Sloot had been lying, had been lying, had been lying consistently.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She has no case against the Kalpoe brothers.
B. TWITTY: They all have been involved in this.
J. TWITTY: They do whatever they want to with the boys.
B. TWITTY: I`m not giving up.
J. TWITTY: They`ve arrested Satish and Deepak. Beth and I are very, very happy. That`s what we wanted.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I should have been worried, yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Will there be justice for 18-year-old Natalee Holloway? Natalee set to start classes, full scholarship, this week. That scholarship still being held open for her at University of Alabama.
This morning, Deepak, Satish Kalpoe rearrested in connection with the disappearance of the 18-year-old girl. Very quickly, to Helen Lejuez, an Aruban attorney.
Helen, why this morning? What pushed the case over the edge that made them, in the early morning hours, grab these two, roust them out of bed, and put them behind bars?
LEJUEZ: It`s a normal procedure that when you -- when the prosecutor goes after someone, they get them in the early morning hours from the bed. That`s a very normal procedure for prosecutors.
GRACE: To Eleanor Dixon, Eleanor, to make the move to actually re- arrest is a very bold move, especially for the Aruban government who, as we see, is slow as molasses. What`s your take on the new evidence?
DIXON: I assume there`s something that -- well, obviously, that they`ve gotten a piece of new evidence. And I would guess that it`s somebody talking, somebody finally making a statement. It could be from wiretaps or it could be from one of the Kalpoe brothers even telling another friend, and not necessarily a wiretap.
But I`m thinking it`s a statement made rather than a piece of forensic evidence, which we haven`t seen so far in this case.
GRACE: I think you`re right, Eleanor.
And Joe Episcopo, of course, here in the United States, a case cannot be brought simply on a confession. There`s got to be more than that. There`s got to be something to back it up, but I`m not so sure that`s true in Aruba.
EPISCOPO: Well, I think they have a statement from a young lady -- I think she`s 17 -- who was willing to come forward. The other two were not because of all this publicity.
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, I want to stick specifically with this case. I`m guessing, based on the interval that`s gone between, that these two have been yakking the whole time, not just to each other, but to other people, too, to make this case, Joe.
EPISCOPO: Yes, I agree with that. And I also think that, if they had let Joran out, he would have talked, too, and we would have had some information on him. But I do believe there are other witnesses involved that they`re protecting, and I believe they are victims who have been subjected to something by this gang.
GRACE: To Renee Rockwell, Renee, you and I both had cases where there was no body before, of course, on the opposite sides of the fence. How hard will it be to prove a case, if Natalee is never found?
ROCKWELL: Nancy, it would seem you`d have to have more than just the statements of all the co-defendants that are going to be involved. Remember, in Aruba, there`s no such thing as a deal. There`s no death penalty, but there`s no such thing as a deal.
You can`t say, "OK, Deepak, if you testify against Joran, we`re not going to charge you." They don`t do that in Aruba.
GRACE: They certainly do not. And of course, you know -- Renee, you know how much I hate to get co-defendant testimony. But sometimes you got to hold your nose to do it. You got to go to hell sometimes to get the witnesses to put the devil in jail. Doesn`t work like that in Aruba.
Panel staying in place. We are shifting to another story I`m going to tell you about, the case of 19-year-old Shannon Melendi. Went missing over 10 years ago.
Joining us right now, staff reporter with "The Daily Reporter" in Atlanta, Robin McDonald. What`s going down in that Atlanta courtroom?
ROBIN MCDONALD, "FULTON COUNTY DAILY REPORTER": Well, I think the witnesses this week, Nancy, have been talking about how Butch Hinton, the suspect, was concerned about evidence that might have been left behind. He suggested that there might have been a body that had been burned and that DNA and trace evidence of DNA was something that he would be most concerned about.
That testimony comes from inmates. The defense, of course, has been trying to raise questions about what kind of deals they may have cut. But the jury still has heard that Butch Hinton was quite worried about the possibility of trace evidence and DNA.
GRACE: Well, you know, Robin, when you don`t know a horse, look at his track record. Butch Hinton III has got five other female victims in his past. Starting off, that I know of, when he was 16 years old, attacking a 30-year-old woman.
Then let`s move forward in another state, attacking a 14-year-old girl, binding her, nearly killing her -- as you`ve told me -- binding her, taking her into his basement to attack her sexually. His pregnant wife hears him upstairs. That`s how the girl`s life was saved.
If he took that victim into his basement, Shannon Melendi. 1994, Shannon goes missing. 1994, he burns his house down. How else would this inmate have known to ask that question, to make that statement, that he was worried about DNA in an arson scene, Robin?
MCDONALD: Well, and there was more than just the house burning down, Nancy. What FBI agents found when they went out to do a search of the property was actually one or two burn pits where they did recover latex gloves that a cadaver dog, trained in picking up on bodily fluids, hit on, where they did recover a score book from the softball country club. You remember, of course, that Shannon Melendi was a scorekeeper at the softball country club where Butch Hinton was an umpire.
They also discovered that he had taken a bulldozer and scraped away the entire level of topsoil and filled in those burn pits. In addition, the neighbors had witnessed him in the wee hours of the morning -- two days after Shannon Melendi had disappeared, the neighbors had witnessed him stoking a large bonfire.
GRACE: You know, Renee, I can remember, back in 1994, I was prosecuting, you were defending. We didn`t know which jurisdiction to go to, because there was no trace of Shannon Melendi. But I also recall this guy with a bulldozer. It was on the local news.
And law enforcement, including me, did a back flip. Why else would he go out in his backyard and bulldoze the topsoil?
ROCKWELL: Nancy, of course, here`s another situation where you do not have a body, but you`ve got all the pieces of the puzzle that the prosecution`s going to put forth.
The fact that they found bags with Shannon`s ring in it -- and somebody else is going to probably speak to that -- the fact that they`ve got him talking in jail -- and more people are behind bars right now because they can`t keep their mouths shut. He`s talking to all these jailhouse snitches.
They`re parading in and out of the courtroom talking about what Butch has admitted to, what he`s worried about, whether the demons made him do it. You`ve got situations where the court and the jury is going to hear about two other kidnappings that he`s been involved in, kidnappings which involved sexual attacks. It goes to show you, they just can`t quit their deeds.
GRACE: And I`m thinking, Joe Episcopo, if anything puts him behind bars-- this is a case without a body -- it will be those two similar transactions this jury will hear about and the inmates. Take a listen to this, Joe.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHNNY PLEASANT, FELLOW INMATE: I say, well, you better hope they don`t ever find a body, because, if they do, with this new DNA thing, you`re certainly be in trouble. And then he referred to me, he said, "I`m not worried about them finding a body."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You know, if he were innocent, why would he even be commenting on finding a body, Joe?
EPISCOPO: Well, you`re assuming he made that statement. You know, I see some interesting similarities to hear this and Michael Jackson.
GRACE: Hold on, hold on -- why shouldn`t I assume he made a statement? The man took the stand, swore on the Bible to be telling the truth. Just because he`s wearing an orange jumpsuit, why should I disbelieve him?
EPISCOPO: Because he`s a convicted felon.
GRACE: Oh, he did a little bank robbery.
EPISCOPO: He`s looking to get out. He`s looking to get out.
But you know, the difference between Jackson, where they used credibility problems and prior misconduct, and this case is that nobody likes this guy. People liked Michael Jackson. So maybe he`ll get convicted because they don`t like him and he`s not a celebrity.
GRACE: You know what? I hardly think this is a popularity contest, Eleanor Dixon. The guy`s got two similar transactions under his belt. There`s a lot of other circumstantial evidence in this case. He was there at the softball game the same night Shannon Melendi was. And this is his exact M.O.
And, also, Eleanor, I don`t believe any deals were offered to these snitches.
DIXON: No, there weren`t. And you know what? A leopard doesn`t change his spots. And you`re right. It`s not a popularity contest.
But the fact is, this is a predator who preys on women, who wants to attack women. And the circumstantial evidence points so strongly to him.
And even, like Renee says, they`re putting together -- the prosecutors are doing a great job putting together the pieces of the puzzle. Hey, they may be missing a few of the pieces, but you can still look at that puzzle and tell that he is guilty.
GRACE: Eleanor, you`re preaching to the choir. But what they`re missing is the body.
Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, a body is a source of unimaginable forensic evidence to a prosecutor. But here this is a sexual predator. We already know of two the jury will hear of. Can a sex predator change?
MARSHALL: A sex predator cannot change. They can be contained but not cured, contained by jail.
This guy is what we call a sadistic rapist. The interesting thing about sadistic rapists is they have high levels of social competency. This guy was an umpire. He burned down his house for insurance money. He tried to cover up the crime and malinger mental illness in jail to fellow inmates.
But sadistic rapists, usually, they do not care what age the victim is. They fuse and confuse sex and aggression and they continue to offend throughout their life.
GRACE: I`ve got to take us to a commercial break. We`ll all be right back. Robin McDonald, thank you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LUIS MELENDI, SHANNON`S FATHER: I will make his life miserable, you know? I mean, this is not over for him. If he thinks he`s going to get out and this is over, he`s got another thing coming. I will make his life miserable as much as I possibly can, you know, within the law. But I won`t let this go, no.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That`s Shannon Melendi`s father speaking out. They`ve waited 11 years for justice.
Very quickly to Robin McDonald with the "Fulton Daily Reporter," what is the defense?
MCDONALD: Well, the defense is, we don`t know what happened to Shannon Melendi. Their defense really is more, Nancy, to raise questions about anything that the prosecution offers as evidence, you know, without a body, without lots of definitive ties to Butch Hinton, that`s what their defense is.
But they are going to have a problem because, this time around, the prosecution has something that they did not have, did not test 10 years ago, and that is some physical evidence from the bag and the tape that surrounded the ring.
GRACE: OK. Robin, thank you. We`ll see you again as the case progresses.
I want to switch gears and go to the case of a missing girl, Pam Kinney. In Tallahassee, Florida, Pam`s aunt, Barbara McNair, David Adlerstein, reporter for "The Apalachicola Times."
David, bring us up-to-date, friend.
DAVID ADLERSTEIN, "APALACHICOLA TIMES": Thank you. The sheriff has been pursuing leads and nothing has panned out.
GRACE: OK, there`s got to be more to the story than that.
Tell me what you can, Barbara, when did she go missing? What`s the latest?
BARBARA MCNAIR, PAM KINNEY`S AUNT: Yes, Pam went missing August 14th at 10:00 p.m. on Sunday night. And we`re on a desperate search for Pam. It is completely out of character for her to leave home without letting someone know, a friend, a family member, or someone know where she is at all times.
GRACE: This thing is just not fitting together, David, because she has never gone missing before. She was very responsible, good grades, had a job there at the Subway sandwich shop. Her dad dropped her off in front of the grandparents` home about 10:00 at night.
She was right there at the home with some friends. Suddenly, poof, she`s gone. What do these friends have to say, David?
ADLERSTEIN: They don`t know. There has been some sightings, but nothing that`s credible.
GRACE: Barbara, what do the friends say happened to her? Where did she say she was going?
MCNAIR: She last saw her around 10:00 p.m. that night. And from there, she walked to go towards home. She has not been seen since. We have been getting leads that`s been leading us to a dead end. It is just - - everything we get back is just negative. It has been where we are just on a desperate search for her.
GRACE: Barbara, question: How many friends were with her at the corner?
MCNAIR: As far as I know, it was two or three. It could have been more, but I know of two or three was there with her.
GRACE: Barbara, men or women?
MCNAIR: Both.
GRACE: And have they all given statements to police?
MCNAIR: Yes. Yes, they have.
GRACE: Are they cooperating?
MCNAIR: You know, they`ve been feeding back what the police asked them, yes.
GRACE: David, what are police trying to do to find this girl? This girl is just 19 years old. Take a look at Pamela Kinney, missing out of Apalachicola, Florida.
Elizabeth, throw that map up again for those people that are not familiar with the oyster capital of the world, Apalachicola, Florida, right there on the panhandle.
David, what are they doing to try to find her?
ADLERSTEIN: They`ve been pursuing the call-ins and seeing if that pans out. They`ve been scouring through unwooded lots in the area. They haven`t found anything there. They`ve been trying to speak to acquaintances of hers and don`t -- and feel that they haven`t gotten the cooperation that they should be getting.
GRACE: Very quickly, David, is there a tip line that you know of, tip line?
ADLERSTEIN: Is there...
GRACE: Tip line.
ADLERSTEIN: Yes, to call the sheriff`s office at 670-8500.
GRACE: That`s area code 850.
Everyone, I met Pam`s family there in Apalachicola, Florida, last week. They came up to me with all these pictures of Pam Kinney. Please help us find her.
Barbara McNair, our thoughts and our prayers are with you. This is a picture of Pam.
Very quickly, to tonight`s "All-Points Bulletin."
FBI and law enforcement across this country are on the lookout for Adolpho Sanchez. Sanchez wanted in connection with the 2000 murder of his 20-year-old ex-fiance, Jennifer Wiedemann (ph). That was in Illinois.
Sanchez, 32, 5`8", 130 pounds, black hair, brown eyes. His first name tattooed on his arm. He`s got an eagle and a dagger through it. If you have any information on Adolpho Sanchez, call the FBI, 312-431-1333.
Local news next for some of you, but we`ll all be right back. And remember, live coverage Monday of the daycare homicide trial, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, Court TV`s "Closing Arguments."
Everybody, please stay with us as we remember Corporal Christopher D. Winchester, just 23, an American hero.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: What a week in America`s courtrooms. Let`s take a look at the stories and, more important, the people who touched all of our lives.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: Superstar Olivia Newton-John goes public with the highly unusual disappearance of Newton-John`s long-time love, after he goes on a one-night fishing trip. Is McDermott missing? Is he dead? Or is he faking a disappearance?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was obviously having difficulties.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Strange things happen.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He did say that he was having money problems.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... giant squid going to come up and eat him?
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: ... come up and eat him? OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was having custody problems with his ex-wife.
GRACE: All that stardom, all that money, all that recognition cannot help Olivia Newton-John tonight bring home her long-time love.
The search turns desperate tonight for 26-year-old Amanda Jones. She`s nine months pregnant. Where is Amanda?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s my baby. I love her. She would have called. She would have called.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Amanda has Graves disease. And without her medication -- she has to take this medication in order for her health and also for the baby`s health.
GRACE: Dane Heggem, just 1 year old. Did this baby die after being force-fed cold medicine to make the baby take a nap?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You place so much trust with your daycare providers.
GRACE: Tiny Tots owner on trial for homicide.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I never, and I think there`s many parents that still don`t believe it. I don`t know.
GRACE: Baby Dane is one of the most beautiful babies I have ever seen. I just hope this jury can see this picture. He`s just a little angel.
A TV camera crew waltzes right into the jailhouse that is housing prime suspect Joran Van Der Sloot.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They took some pictures of him and tried to ask him some questions.
GRACE: His lawyers up in arms trying to make sure the world never sees the jailhouse footage.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What NBC has done was to try to tarnish the name of our client.
GRACE: How is it maligning Joran Van Der Sloot? No comment on whether I think he`s involved or not.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: Everybody in the control room has something to say. Good-bye and thanks for being with us this week. Thank you to all of my guests, but my biggest thank you is to you for being with us this whole week, inviting us into your homes.
Coming up, headlines around the world, Larry on CNN. I`m Nancy Grace, signing off until Monday. Good night, friend.
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