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Nancy Grace

Looting and general lawlessness reported breaking out in New Orleans. Can the military restore order? And are these really opportunistic looters or just people trapped in a destroyed city trying to feed their families?

Aired August 31, 2005 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight: Chaos follows Hurricane Katrina. Police report widespread lootings, carjackings and shootings in New Orleans, a city buried in flood waters, massive destruction of property. The law struggles to cope as the National Guard moves in to take over what many call a war zone. Is law and order the latest victim?
Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace, and I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Tonight, to Aruba. Prime suspect in the Natalee Holloway disappearance, Aruban judge`s son Joran Van Der Sloot, back in court today, along with his running buddies and co-suspects, Deepak and Satish Kalpoe.

But first, Hurricane Katrina`s horrific aftermath. The death toll rising by the hour, homes destroyed, people without food, water, even a place to go, and to top it all off, a breakdown in law and order. Armed looters roam the streets of New Orleans, ransacking stores in broad daylight, stealing everything in sight -- electronics, food, clothing and guns -- carjackers attacking vehicles leaving the city, multiple shootings, devastation, people left with nothing, people willing to steal to get a loaf of bread.

Tonight, in Montgomery, Texas, Louisiana state representative Steve Scalise. He helped create a statewide anti-looting law. In Gulfport, Mississippi, Major General Harold Cross of the Mississippi National Guard. In Montgomery, Alabama, Lieutenant Colonel Robert Horton of the Alabama National Guard. In Kansas City, Missouri, Lieutenant Colonel Jonathan Tomes, a retired Army JAG. In Atlanta, defense attorney Renee Rockwell from Louisiana. In Waveland, Mississippi, CNN correspondent and anchor Anderson Cooper. And in Washington, CNN correspondent Jamie McIntyre.

Jamie, what are the feds doing to help?

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, the Pentagon points out that the use of Guard troops in order to perform law enforcement has to come at the request of the governor. These troops are under state control, and while they have thousands, tens of thousands, in fact, more than 100,000 Guard troops available to be sent into these states, they can`t send them in, particularly for a law enforcement function, without this state governor requesting them.

Today, apparently, they got that request, because they announced that 11,000 additional troops are going in, a lot of them to provide security to help enforce the law, restore order. But they won`t be there for the next day or two.

GRACE: Well, is there any indication that the military can actually stop the unrest in New Orleans?

MCINTYRE: Well, you know -- law enforcement is -- you know, in sufficient numbers, can restore order. The question is, you know, what are the priorities. How many people do you have to do that? How important is it to stop the looting versus feed people, versus rescue people?

But what appears to have happened here is that because the communications were so bad, local officials had a hard time understanding that -- the extent of the problem, where they needed to send people, how many people they needed. And because of that, a lot of these troops who could come in and help restore order war just sitting on standby, waiting to be called in.

GRACE: I`m going to go to Major General Harold Cross with the Mississippi National Guard. What is the Mississippi Guard doing in the wake of Katrina?

MAJ. GEN. HAROLD CROSS, MISSISSIPPI NATIONAL GUARD: Nancy, good evening. Mississippi National Guard is spanning out, along with help from other states, other National Guard units that are coming in. We`ve got about three battalions of military police now, and we`re augmenting those with other troops that are not trained military police but are authorized to carry firearms and enforce the law under the governor`s direction in a state emergency.

And we are -- we`re seeing some progress. Although we still have some looting, we are seeing a lot of homeowners coming back and assisting, of course, in guarding their own property. But we are being very effective with that. We continue to have troops arrive to us, and we`re going to have probably two to three more Ba`athist to put in place by tomorrow and the next day.

GRACE: I want -- first of all, Representative Steve Scalise, take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ain`t no PD, the police (INAUDIBLE)

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... no reason...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For no reason.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) walking down the street.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They put their guns in our face!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do we have a gun?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do I look like I have a gun on me?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With no shirt on.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No shoes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No shoes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They took our shoes!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We got us some new shoes!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s why we got new ones.

GOV. KATHLEEN BLANCO (D), LOUISIANA: I will tell you something. We are going to restore law and order. We will do what it takes to bring law and order to our region. We`re not going to put up with petty criminals or hardened criminals doing their business. This is not a time or a place for any of that behavior. And I am just furious! This is intolerable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Tonight, with us a special guest, Representative Steve Scalise with the Louisiana House of Representatives. He co-authored this bill on looting. Welcome, sir. It`s an honor to have you on the show. Question. I`ve been watching this looting, and there`s a big difference between people taking advantage of this disaster and making off with a -- 25 VCRs, as opposed to people coming out of the Walgreen`s with diapers and chips and drinks. How do you differentiate in your law?

STEVE SCALISE, LA STATE REPRESENTATIVE, CO-AUTHOR OF LA LOOTING LAW: Well, it`s very clear. I mean, of course, law enforcement has the ultimate responsibility. But what you`re seeing is not just people trying to provide for their families. It`s people that are -- disgusting activity, people that are taking advantage of a situation, going out, trying to take TVs, trying to take guns from stores. They`re taking jewelry.

These people need to be dealt with harshly. We have new laws on the books that make it tougher, and the police can put people in jail for a long, long period of time. And we`ve got the video footage. I think we need to go back once all of this is over and make sure that we go and find the people that are doing this and see to it that they`re enforced -- punished to the fullest extent of the law. And the law does give the law enforcement the ability to put them away for a long time.

GRACE: But how is it distinguished between someone making off with a flat-screen TV -- and I saw a guy with a grocery cart full of VCRs...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: You go ahead.

SCALISE: The district attorneys have the ability to use their discretion. And I think you`re seeing law enforcement -- they`re spread very thin right now. Of course, their top priority is saving life, and that`s what it needs to be. They`re also trying to block the floods in our dams, so that we don`t have our neighborhoods flooding and they can start pumping the waters out. So you don`t need law enforcement to have to be spreading their resources so thin to do this.

But at the same time -- and our governors called for it on down -- we need to have the National Guard in there, out there enforcing the laws and making sure that looters are off the streets. There`s no reason for anybody other than emergency personnel to be on the streets right now, and anybody else should be dealt with very harshly.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAUL MCHALE, ASST. SEC. OF DEFENSE FOR HOMELAND SECURITY: If, for some reason, and it does appear, the level of the criminal threat exceeds the immediate capability of civilian law enforcement, the National Guard in state status, under command and control of the governor, not under command and control of the secretary of defense, can work side by side lawfully with civilian law enforcement agencies, police officers, to maintain public order.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: To Lieutenant Colonel Jonathan Tomes, retired Army JAG. Sir, thank you for being with us. Explain to me who`s in charge right now. I mean, this is one of the first times in American history that we see military patrolling the streets in tanks with guns over their shoulders. Explain to me the state of emergency, particularly in various parishes across Louisiana.

LT. COL. JONATHAN TOMES, RETIRED U.S. ARMY JAG: Well, first of all, while I agree that there haven`t been a lot of tanks in the streets, in more than 100 occasions since the founding of our country, we have had the military come and help civilian authorities maintain good order and discipline. For example, the Los Angeles Rodney King riots. For example, some of the integration of the colleges in the South.

But to get to your question, there`s sort of a range of how these things are handled. And they`re handled initially like is going on here, where the state believes that it can handle the situation...

GRACE: Right.

TOMES: ... with federal assistance. There can come a point where the state laws cannot be enforced effectively by civilian control, where the local commander, or the president, more properly the president, may order martial law, and the military then...

GRACE: Right.

TOMES: ... can entirely take over from the civilian authority.

GRACE: I understand. To Jamie McIntyre, CNN correspondent. What`s the likelihood that`s going to happen?

MCINTYRE: Well, it`s not very likely that you`re going to see these forces come under any control other than the governor of the state. I mean, there`s a well established process. The military supports the law enforcement. They work side by side. But the local law enforcement, the state authorities, are the ones in control. And the governor is essentially the commander-in-chief, working through the adjutant general of the Guard in that state. That process is pretty well established.

The U.S. military is not interested in taking the lead role in law enforcement or bee seen as taking a lead role...

GRACE: Right.

MCINTYRE: ... but they are interested in doing whatever they can to help the law enforcement do their job. And they do have trained police officers with experience, MPs who know how to exercise judgment and who are familiar with that role. And I think that`s what you`re going to see.

I think the question here is, Why weren`t they there sooner in order to be more effective? Why are they just coming in now, essentially, almost five days after the disaster.

GRACE: To Lieutenant Colonel Robert Horton. He`s with the public affairs office, Alabama National Guard. Sir, thank you for being with us. You know, it`s difficult when you know some people are breaking into a grocery store to get diapers, to get bread, to get food, cigarettes, and others are breaking in to get VCRs, TVs. In fact, the entire gun department at Wal-Mart -- where was that, in New Orleans? -- south of the garden district, totally cleaned out.

Now, that`s scary! So what does the National Guard -- what do they hope to achieve, Lieutenant Colonel Horton?

LT. COL. ROBERT HORTON, ALABAMA NATIONAL GUARD: Well, as the gentleman pointed out earlier, the National Guard is going to be there to support the civil law enforcement officials. Things that the National Guard can do is help secure areas, to help impose curfews and to provide perimeter defense, to keep people from coming into restricted areas. So there`s various ways that the National Guard can support the law enforcement officials.

GRACE: You know, that`s -- what an idea. One day, you`re sitting there as a bank teller or a CPA or a lawyer looking up a real estate title. The next day, you`re tromping down the streets of Louisiana with a gun slung over your shoulder, trying to figure out what to do with a looter. Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`ve really seen people acting not nicely, so -- and they know we`re tourists and they know you got money. You know, so we got nowhere to go!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Renee Rockwell, I recognize that accent. What are you hearing from friends and family at home?

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, I just got off the phone with Eddie Knoll (ph). He is a former prosecutor from central Louisiana. He`s married to a supreme court justice, Jeannette Knoll (ph), and they literally have over 70 people in their homes now that have come from New Orleans. I asked him, I said, How long are they going to be there? He said, As long as they want to.

It`s incredible. It`s devastating. There is no more New Orleans. The New Orleans that we knew is gone, Nancy. Incredible.

GRACE: Renee, your family, many of them, are in Baton Rouge. But regarding the city of New Orleans, at a time like this -- as you`re saying, the city of New Orleans is gone as we know it. There was a child in the door of a store there, a child, and when the police came up, the child started yelling out, "86, 86." Renee, you know what that means. That is cop talk for "the cops are coming," and then everybody ran out of the store with loot.

ROCKWELL: OK. If we could just address this looting -- this new looting law? You can have -- you can be prosecuted for criminal trespass, simple burglary, aggravated burglary. But this brand-new law, which is looting, if convicted -- and I`m sure that the state or the government`s going to differentiate between someone running in and grabbing some potato chips and some water and somebody else going in and getting a plasma TV, Nancy, which can`t help anybody right now at this time. If convicted of looting, it`s $5,000 to $10,000 fine and 3 to 15 years in a penitentiary without probation, parole, suspended sentence. That`s a tough law.

GRACE: We`re talking about three years behind bars for looting.

I want to go back to Mississippi National Guardsman, Major General Harold Cross. General, in this case -- in this particular case in Louisiana, it`s not just looting anymore. Shots have been exchanged. There have been actual gunshots. There are carjackings, cars where -- vehicles where people are trying to leave the city, they`re getting carjacked. And the National Guard is in a position of taking civilians and asking them to go into a situation where there are armed looters. I mean, how do you do that?

CROSS: Well, it`s a difficult situation, Nancy. Remember, we`re down here to also save lives and do search and rescue and get people water and food before they get into a desperate situation, more than they are already. When we find looters, we deal with them very harshly, and we know the difference between somebody getting a case of water and getting into commercial businesses. And what`s worse is getting into other people`s homes. We will deal with them very harshly. We already have, and we continue to do that.

But we also keep focused on our initial mission, and that is to get relief to the people as quickly as we can. We`re not going to get in a situation where we`re indiscriminately shooting people or getting people`s lives in danger that don`t need to be placed in danger.

GRACE: You know what? You`re so right. I wish you could see our monitor right now. These poor people have absolutely nothing. They don`t even have shoes! In our country! Look at this! Very quickly...

CROSS: Well, this is America, and America comes together in a disaster. We`ve got help coming from a lot of different states tonight. As a matter of fact, I can just barely hear you because I`ve got C-130s taxiing by me with additional help.

But we`re there night and day, and when we find looters, we`ll deal with them. When we incarcerate them, there`s a problem with putting them somewhere. Jails are blown down. We can put them in holding pens, but that just adds to our problem. We will deal with them at the place of their crime, based on the seriousness we feel like of their crime.

But our troops are with a trained law enforcement officer, and we`re going to deal with them as we have to. We`re going to stop and get control of the law enforcement situation in Mississippi, and we`re making very much progress with that. I think we`ve got a different situation in Louisiana.

GRACE: You certainly do, a drastically different situation in Louisiana.

Everyone, we`ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s bad around here. People trying to eat and survive, just, you know, trying to take care of their family. I got about six, seven little grandchildren and everything. People are just trying to eat around here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. Let`s quickly go to Anderson Cooper, before we lose him. He`s joining us from Waveland, Mississippi. Anderson, welcome, friend. What do you see?

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Well, Nancy, I actually have been in Waveland all day. I just moved over to Bay St. Louis. You know, it`s just -- it`s devastation, Nancy. And I don`t want to sound like I`m just repeating myself, but you know, every community you go to, it just gets worse and worse, street after street and home after home.

And you know, you`ve been talking about looting tonight. Even in small towns here in Mississippi, there`s looting going on. I was with some FEMA troops, some search and rescue officers, and they needed protection because they were intimidated by what was going on around them. And we`re seeing that all over here in southern Mississippi. It`s a very tenuous situation. And when the night is falling like it is right now, Nancy, it gets real scary.

GRACE: Anderson, what did you do last night? What happens as night begins to fall?

COOPER: Well, we actually -- we drove about 40 miles and found a hotel that -- they didn`t have electricity, but they let us stay there, let us camp out there. They had some running water, which was a real luxury. And so we stayed there the night. We woke up early, and we spent the day searching for bodies with some urban search and rescue personnel from FEMA. We found six bodies in their homes in this small town of Waveland, Mississippi.

GRACE: Anderson, why couldn`t they have been evacuated?

COOPER: Well, I`ll tell you, one of the neighbors I spoke to of one of the families -- there was a family, a man, a woman, two children who we found dead, who had been in their homes for 48 hours, rotting inside their homes. Their homes were boarded up. They didn`t want to leave. They didn`t want to evacuate because they were afraid of looters. They were afraid of looters coming to their homes once they evacuated.

Of course, there is looting going on. They chose to stay in their home, and they died as a result of it. A 20-foot wall of water came. They drowned in their homes, Nancy.

GRACE: Anderson, I`ve never heard anything like that. They drowned in their own home?

COOPER: Yes, they drowned in their homes. They collected salt and pepper shaker figurines, and in their home, I saw their home, their bodies were in there, and as I just said, they`d been in there for 48 hours, boarded up in that home. And when the windows were opened, you know, the entire neighborhood could tell that those people were dead. Those salt and pepper figurines were untouched in their homes. Their home was destroyed. They had drowned, but all their salt and pepper figurines were sitting lined up on their shelves. It was the eeriest thing I`ve seen in a long time, Nancy.

GRACE: Anderson, that`s what I was talking to you about last night, people refusing to evacuate. And I understand it. You don`t want to leave your home because you think looters will come take everything you`ve ever worked for! And now -- you said there were two children in there?

COOPER: Yes. In fact, they were -- their neighbor described them to me as mentally disabled, and so, you know...

GRACE: Oh!

COOPER: Yes, I know. It`s...

GRACE: And another thing, Anderson...

COOPER: It was just horrible.

GRACE: When we say Evacuate, evacuate -- what about people that don`t have cars? They don`t have a way to evacuate? What about them?

COOPER: Yes.

GRACE: Like...

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: Right. I mean, we all -- exactly. We all assume, Oh, well, they can go stay with friends in another city, they can drive out. No, they can`t. I mean, these are very poor areas that, you know, are hardest hit. These are housing complexes, public housing. And you know, they`ve got nowhere to go. And they don`t want to leave their homes. They don`t want to get it looted.

GRACE: Anderson, please try to stay with us. We are having a difficulty, through our satellite, getting to Anderson. He`s in Bay St. Louis, Mississippi. Everybody, stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: This is just one shot of many, people trying to escape, tragedy -- Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana.

Quickly, back to Anderson Cooper. He`s joining us live from Bay St. Louis, Mississippi. I`m thinking about that family you told me about, the two mentally disabled children, the parents in a housing project. Anderson, when you tell them, Evacuate -- how? Where? How can they leave? They couldn`t leave!

COOPER: Yes. In fact, this woman who died in this family, she had actually called her neighbor -- her neighbor`s name was Sally Slaughter (ph). She`s -- a neighbor actually found her. She called her neighbor right before the storm hit, just to check up on her neighbor because she was worried about her neighbor. And you know, it`s 48 hours later, her neighbor realized, Wait, I haven`t from this woman from this family, went to check on them, broke into her house and saw them right there. I mean, literally, you know, they drowned to death in their home. It`s...

GRACE: Anderson -- Anderson, you`ve been all over the world. You`ve seen it all. Have you ever seen anything like this in our country?

COOPER: No, I haven`t. This is -- I`ve never seen anything like this in the United States.

GRACE: Anderson...

COOPER: The closest I`ve seen...

GRACE: I`ve got to go to break.

COOPER: ... to this is the tsunami.

GRACE: I`ll be right back, dear.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SOPHIA CHOI, CNN HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR: Hi there, I`m Sophia Choi. Let`s get to your "Headline Prime Newsbreak."

President Bush says the recovery from Hurricane Katrina will take years. He flew over the destruction caused by Hurricane Katrina earlier today and is now urging Americans to donate money to help with the recovery effort. He`s also assembling a special cabinet task force to coordinate relief agencies.

Thousands of people in New Orleans, in the meantime, could be dead. That`s according to the city`s mayor. Among survivors, many remain trapped on rooftops and are now waiting to be rescued.

Meantime, plans are under way to bus the thousands of refugees inside the Superdome 350 miles away to the Houston Astrodome.

In some other parts of the country, long lines are now forming at gas stations amid fears of a gas shortage. Those fears are creating price gouging complaints, with gas stations as far away as Atlanta charging $6 for a gallon of gas.

That`s the news for now. I`m Sophia Choi. Now back to NANCY GRACE.

GRACE: One of the many scenes of the devastation across the southland, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana. Very quickly, to Anderson Cooper with CNN.

Anderson, have you taken a look at your paycheck lately? You see what the feds take out, every other week? Where are they? Why aren`t they there?

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, Nancy, I have heard that question asked to me so many times today from people who have just -- you know, are standing in front of their destroyed homes, and they`re looking around, and they`re saying, "Where is the army? Where is the National Guard?"

You know, and I`m not trying to put down -- there are thousands of FEMA workers. There are people here working very hard around the clock. You know, they don`t have the food. They don`t have water, but they`re out there working, trying to help people, trying to save lives. And they`re saving lives.

That being said, people here are really angry and understandably so. I mean, and what they say is, you know, we send troops to other countries. We help other countries in tsunamis. But, you know, where is the National Guard? Where is the Army? Where are the food drops?

You know, it`s been more than 48 hours now. And people, they still don`t have water. They still don`t have food, in my cases. And they have no place to go. And they`re sitting in what`s left of their homes, scared to death, as darkness comes from looters, who may, you know, come and do them harm.

And I don`t have the answer for them. They ask me that question. I`ve gotten that question literally a dozen times today. And I don`t have an answer.

And it`s a question, I think, that needs to be asked to some people, you know -- we knew this storm was coming. You know, the news groups were prepared for mobilizing down here for it. Was the National Guard mobilized ahead of time? Would the Army be called in?

I don`t know the answers to these questions. That`s what people down here want to know.

GRACE: Let`s go to the Pentagon. Standing by, CNN correspondent Jamie McIntyre.

You know, I thought I knew the law before this. What I don`t understand is, you know, we`ve been blessed to be able to send money all around the world when there`s a tsunami, where there is famine, where there is tragedy. But this is our own country, Jamie, and the feds seem to be sitting on their thumbs.

MCINTYRE: Well, I think the answer, it`s two-fold. One is bureaucracy is in the way.

GRACE: Oh, good lord!

MCINTYRE: And the other one is, there was a plan...

GRACE: Jamie, Jamie, Jamie...

MCINTYRE: Yes?

GRACE: ... you said with a straight face "bureaucracy." What do you mean?

MCINTYRE: Well, I mean is that there are systems and processes for responding to these things. And, clearly, they weren`t up to this task.

You know, they have a saying at the Pentagon: No plan survives first contact with the enemy. There was a plan here, but clearly wasn`t adequate for what happened.

And, you know, obviously, things became vastly complicated when the levee was breached and New Orleans was flooded. That changed the dynamic entirely.

But if you`re going to go back and say, you know, why haven`t they been able to respond more quickly? And the military is very geared up now, but why has it taken them this long, and they`re not quite there yet?

You`re going to go back and look at the systems that were in place for deploying all these people, how they made those judgments, and how fast they could respond.

And you know, you may say, well, why couldn`t they just, you know, drop food there, just like they did during the tsunami disaster, when the U.S. rushed to the aid of countries in the Pacific? But even that took time. And even that requires some coordination.

And I think it`s going to be -- and if you go back and evaluate this, after it`s all over, there`s going to be a lot of room for improvement. No one`s going to dispute that.

GRACE: You know, Anderson, talking about hindsight being 20/20, what you`re describing -- and, everybody, Anderson, was there for the tsunami coverage. Anderson has been in Africa just recently covering just horrible starvation. Now, he is there covering Katrina.

Anderson, I was thinking about where my father`s from, Hacote, Alabama (ph). There`s nothing there. And I`m just envisioning people out in the middle of nowhere with nothing.

COOPER: You know, Nancy, my dad`s actually from Quitman, Mississippi, which is just south of Meridian, which I drove through two nights ago. And a CNN crew just happened to be driving down the road in the height of the storm and were helped by some people on the side of the road with chainsaws who were cutting down trees, because no one else was out there.

And just, in the weirdest of all coincidences, they turned out to be my cousins who were out there on their own, literally. And they said, "Who do y`all work for?" And they said, "CNN." And they said, "Hey, our cousin works for CNN." You know, the world is a very small place.

But this is what it boils down to. It boils down to people, you know, taking a chainsaw into their own hands, because there`s no one else with chainsaws around here, and they`re doing it themselves.

But, you know, the gas has run out. The chainsaws don`t work anymore, and they need some help.

GRACE: You know, Anderson, I came in tonight with all my statutes about looting and the penalties and what we were going to do to stop it. And when I see these pictures and hear you talking, people are drowning in their own homes, they`re starving.

Elizabeth, can you put up the number for UMCOR? This is the United Methodist relief corps number, 1-800-554-8583, 1-800-554-8583.

Anderson, looking at these pictures, tell us, how does this compare to what you have seen all around the world? And this is in our own backyard.

COOPER: That`s what`s so strange about it. I mean, it literally -- the scenes are straight out of the tsunami. It`s very much like what I saw in Sri Lanka.

You know, the bodies are the same bloated bodies, the same -- you know, water does terrible things to a person. And they`re unrecognizable.

And I saw something today which I`m never going to forget. We came upon a woman -- I think she was a woman, it was hard to tell. Her body was so decomposed at this point. She was laid out in a street with a blanket over her, and she had been left there by her neighbors, because they took her out of the home where she drowned. They deposited her in the street.

Forty-eight hours later, these FEMA guys, who are working really hard, went by, photographed her body for identification purposes, but they couldn`t even take her away because there`s no place to put her. There`s no coroners around.

And so, you know, as I go to sleep tonight, I`m going to be thinking about that woman. I don`t know her name. I don`t know if her loved ones know that she`s passed away. She`s laying out on a street tonight, and God knows what`s going to happen to her overnight.

And that is what I`m going to be thinking about when I lay in a bed tonight, if I can get there. You just don`t expect to see this kind of thing in the United States.

GRACE: Anderson, is it getting better at all or is it getting worse?

COOPER: You know, honestly, Nancy, I don`t know. I`m in such a small little world here. You know, it`s getting better in some places. You know, some people are getting water, no doubt about it.

I saw some people getting ice today. That`s a huge thing here. You know, there are people working really, really hard, and I don`t want to take anything away from their efforts.

There are literally thousands of people here, a lot of them volunteers, you know, just working their heart out. They`re not getting paid much to do it, I can tell you. And it is gruesome, grisly work.

That being said, as each day goes by, you know, it just gets dirtier and there`s -- I mean, it`s just dirty, and smelly, and unpleasant. And in that way, it just gets worse and worse.

I mean, you know, there`s a certain adrenaline that takes you through the first couple days. But the second night, the third night, when you got no place to sleep, adrenaline doesn`t get you through that.

And, you know, yes, in the big picture, maybe it`s getting better. And let`s hope it is. And I pray to God it is. But, you know, try telling that to the man I just met down there whose home is destroyed and, you know, doesn`t know what to do with his life.

I mean, yes, I guess it`s getting some better, but it sure doesn`t feel like it right now.

GRACE: Thank you, friend. Anderson Cooper joining us from Bay St. Louis, Mississippi.

Very quickly, I want to take you to tonight`s case alert, some good news. Twelve-year-old Jodie Collie disappeared from Rocky Mount, North Carolina, last Friday. She`s been found alive and well during our show last night, at the very moment we were appealing for your help.

Just as Jodie`s grandmother said hello to you, she burst into tears. She had received news police had located her granddaughter far away from North Carolina in Des Moines, Iowa.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We need your help. A 12-year-old missing girl out of North Carolina taken from her bedroom.

We may have good news about Jodie Collie. Breaking news. The 12- year-old girl, who we believe was taken by a convicted sex offender -- I`m hearing in my ear, we may have found the girl. And the grandmother has just been apprised of this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Just hours ago, the FBI caught Phillip Denkler, convicted sex offender, all the way in Colorado. Denkler charged with Jodie`s kidnap.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVE HOLLOWAY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S FATHER: Someone out there in Aruba knows something, and we`re hopeful that they`ll come forward and give us that clue that will, you know, break the leg on the table, so to speak.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. We are live in Aruba. And the latest in the Natalee Holloway missing girl case.

Today, D-Day, Joran Van Der Sloot, the chief suspect in the case, a judge`s son, back in court along with his running buddies, the Kalpoe brothers. Tonight from Aruba, "Diario" reporter Giovani lane. In West Tampa, Florida, Joe Episcopo. Also with us, CNN correspondent Susan Candiotti and Renee Rockwell joining us out of Atlanta, defense attorney.

To Susan Candiotti, bring us up-to-date, Susan.

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Nancy, a busy day in court today. In fact, they were in there practically the entire day. And this day, Joran, along with the Kalpoe brothers, were questioned together by the judge.

The judge trying to decide whether Joran can be held beyond that 120- day limit. The judge must decide by September the 4th whether the prosecutors have enough, quote, unquote, "new evidence" to keep him behind bars while the investigation continues.

Now, during their presentation, prosecutors presented about 300 pages of evidence. Key among them, statements from Joran, as well as the Kalpoe brothers, that they allegedly had sex with Natalee Holloway.

And they also entered into evidence that gardener`s statement -- this is the man who said that he saw the three of them in a car parked by the pond the night that Natalee disappeared, but at a time that would call into question where they were when they said they were at that particular hour of the night.

And then, Nancy, something else was introduced into evidence, that the defense attorneys claim is not new, has been in the file for two months, and they can`t understand what this has to do with Natalee`s disappearance. And I`m a little uncertain about that, as well.

It involves another young man who law enforcement tells me has nothing to do with Natalee`s disappearance, who took some photographs of a 14-year- old girl, described as of a provocative nature, while Joran supposedly watched, as well as Deepak and a couple other young girls. Again, I`m not clear what this has to do with the case directly.

GRACE: OK, I think I may know. Susan, does this guy, this fourth suspect, does he live anywhere near Joran Van Der Sloot, or did they know each other before this?

CANDIOTTI: He`s described as Joran`s best friend, according to the defense attorney.

GRACE: OK, all right. I think I may have cracked the mystery.

To Joe Episcopo, this guy, FEZ (ph), is charged with taking photos of a 14-year-old girl. Hello, she`s got on a bikini. She`s not nude, all right, although they`re saying the photos are provocative. Clearly, he knows something about the case. So they arrest him on these photos and squeeze him to tell the truth?

JOE EPISCOPO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Clearly, he knows something about the case because of that? I doubt it.

GRACE: I`m asking you to divine why this guy is arrested and in the files is connected to this case. Let`s put on our thinking cap.

EPISCOPO: Yes. I`ll tell you why. They`re trumped-up charges because they can`t prove the primary case. They`re arresting people on suspicions because they can`t plea bargain, they can`t grant immunity. They`re not going to solve this case they way they`re doing it.

GRACE: OK, that helps.

Let`s go to Renee Rockwell. Got a theory?

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, the only thing that I have is maybe Joran and the Kalpoe brothers have been involved with some other young girls, doing other things, and maybe they`re just afraid that this guy`s going to come forward and talk about it, trying to get himself or explain himself out of these pictures of these young girls. Only thing I can think of.

GRACE: And, thereby, turn into a witness, not necessarily a suspect, in the Natalee Holloway case.

Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAULUS VAN DER SLOOT, FATHER OF JORAN VAN DER SLOOT: He wants to go home. He feels he hasn`t done anything wrong. He is maintaining his innocence.

And, you know, he has been deprived of his freedom for almost three months. He misses his home, his parents. And he want to go home. So that this, I believe, you know, what broke him down a little bit.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Joran Van Der Sloot shed a tear, said he wants to go home? I sent this to his family last night. Now this one`s for you, Joran Van Der Sloot. You`re crying? What do you think Natalee`s family has been through?

Renee, not that it`s the first time I`ve been burned in effigy at a courthouse before, but take a look at this.

Got that video? There you go. Ouch!

ROCKWELL: Nancy, is there any such thing as bad publicity?

GRACE: Well, I don`t know about that, but, you know, the truth hurts. And instead of holding up posters about me and CNN, you`d think they`d be trying to find Natalee Holloway and trying to find the truth of this case.

ROCKWELL: Is this to me?

GRACE: Yes.

ROCKWELL: Nancy, let`s talk about Aruba just a little bit. We know a couple of things. They don`t have juries. They don`t have the death penalty. Like Episcopo said, they don`t have deals, no immunity.

What you have a situation is where you`re going to have a panel of judges looking at everything that`s been gathered up. They can look at the fact that they`ve changed their story so many times. They can look at the fact that maybe he`s going to plead silence right now and not explain it, but then compare other stories that he`s contradicted himself.

I know one thing, that Deepak`s attorney has said that there`s no new evidence against Deepak. Therefore, he should be released, like he was released last time. But then you have Satish`s attorney, who said that something Satish said has contradicted statements that Joran and Deepak have said. So, therefore, they`re all back in court trying to straighten the story out. Just doesn`t look good.

GRACE: To Giovani Lane with "Diario" newspaper. Giovani, she`s right. There was another conflict in the three statements today between the Kalpoes and Joran Van Der Sloot. The judge brought them back in to ask them about it.

Do we know what the conflict was, Giovani?

GIOVANI LANE, "DIARIO" REPORTER: Well, the lawyers didn`t say anything about it. Only thing I know is that Zeppenveldt, one of Joran`s lawyers -- I mean Satish`s lawyer, sorry -- he explained that the police had probably forgotten that Joran must not have been taken away from the court.

So, because at the last part of the case was that the three guys would have been confronted with each other. So, at first they were questioning them individually.

And the last part of the whole day was going to be that all were going to be together in court. And the police had to go back and get Joran and bring him back and his lawyers. That`s why his lawyers came back.

One thing Zeppenveldt said that was a little -- I noticed, he said that the girl from the picture had said that Satish was not there during this shoot, you know, was not on the picture, was not one of the guys.

But he did not say if one of the other guys was mentioned by the girl. And that`s one thing we want to try to find out.

GRACE: Quick break, everybody.

Very quickly to tonight`s "All-Points Bulletin."

FBI and law enforcement across the country on the lookout for John Patrick Addis, wanted in connection with the `95 kidnap and murder of Joanne Albanese, 39, in Nevada.

Addis, 54, 6`1", 190 pounds, light brown hair, blue-green eyes. If you have any info on John Patrick Addis, call the FBI, 702-385-1281.

Local news next for some of you, but we`ll all be right back. And remember, live coverage of an accused wife accused of killing her husband, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, Court TV.

Please stay with us as we remember Sergeant Damion Campbell, 23, an American hero.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: We at NANCY GRACE want very much to help in our own way, solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Take a look at Eric Alexander, just 24 years old, in a car with his girlfriend, January 2004, Richmond, Virginia.

Stopped at an intersection, driver in front gets out and shoots. Police still have not found Eric`s killer. If you have information on Eric Alexander, call the Carole Sund Carrington Foundation toll free, 888-813- 8389. Help us.

Very quickly, back to Giovani Lane with Diario. Giovani, how is Jossy Mansur?

LANE: Well, he told me specifically to say hi to Nancy for him, and he says he`s going to be on tomorrow for sure. He`s kind of a little tired. He`s busy with other stuff, you know, also the case in court and his job. He has to handle certain things, but he`s going to be tomorrow on your show.

GRACE: OK. Tell Jossy, we want to see him -- you`re great -- but we want to see Jossy in the flesh.

Very quickly to Susan Candiotti with CNN correspondent on the case from the beginning. Susan, please tell me I`m wrong about this -- I`ve gotten information from a source -- but that the new Dutch interrogators, the new technique is to be nice to the Kalpoes and Joran Van Der Sloot. That`s the secret weapon?

CANDIOTTI: Well, that`s possible. We don`t really know. This is simply according to a couple of the people who have been picked up and/or re-interviewed by these people. For example, Steven Croes, the deejay, told us that, this time when he was interviewed by the interrogators, they were, in his words, much nicer to him than they were the last time.

Also, we heard that, this time, when the Kalpoe brothers were re- arrested just last Friday, that, instead of being rousted from their sleep and dragged off to jail, this time, they were allowed to get dressed, et cetera, et cetera, before they left.

You know, Nancy, I don`t know what the new strategy is, but it`s an observation, anyway.

GRACE: And very quickly, Susan, when do with we get a ruling on whether Van Der Sloot can be kept longer?

CANDIOTTI: You would think it would have to come by Friday at the latest, because the clock`s ticking.

GRACE: OK, thank you, friend. Susan Candiotti joining us.

I want to thank all of my guests tonight. But my biggest thank you, to you, for being with us, inviting us into your home.

Coming up, headlines from all around the world, Larry on CNN. I`m Nancy Grace, signing off for tonight. Hope to see you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.

END