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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Crisis in Louisiana
Aired September 08, 2005 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, HOST: Wolf, thank you. Good evening, everybody.
Tonight, New Orleans mayor Ray Nagin is giving hurricane survivors who refuse to leave their homes one last chance. Police and troops are trying to convince people to leave that city voluntarily. The next step, forcible removal.
It's not altogether clear whether local, state and federal agencies have the legal right to forcibly remove people from their homes. We'll be examining this critical issue tonight.
And on Capitol Hill, the highly partisan fight over who's to blame for the failure to respond quickly to this disaster is escalating. We'll be taking a look at one left wing group that is at the center of what is increasingly a partisan battle.
Senator Jon Kyl says this disaster makes him less certain that the United States can respond effectively to a terrorist attack against this country. Senator Kyl is our guest here.
And I'll also be talking with a hero of 9/11. Former New York City police commissioner Bernard Kerik will be talking about the responsibilities of local governments in terrorist attacks and natural disasters.
Tonight, there is word that a new hurricane is now charging toward the coast of Florida. We'll have the very latest for you on what is now Hurricane Ophelia.
Tonight, health officials in New Orleans are desperately concerned about the safety of as many as 15,000 hurricane survivors who remain in that city. Those people face critical health risks. Rescue workers are making a new effort to convince remaining survivors to leave the city.
Officials are also expressing new concern tonight about the rising number of fires in the city. There were four more fires today, 11 fires yesterday. The hard pressed New Orleans Fire Department has now been reinforced by 800 fire fighters from three states, New York, Illinois, and Maryland.
The cost of this massive relief effort is escalating rapidly. The House of Representatives today passed an emergency spending bill for $52 billion of additional money. President Bush also announced new government incentives to help the hundreds of thousands of people who have left their homes and have no money.
We begin our coverage tonight with a report by Jeff Koinange in New Orleans.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If they bundle me up and carry me off, there will be gunfire.
JEFF KOINANGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Austin Adway (ph) has been holed out in his house in a wealthy New Orleans neighborhood for more than 10 days. And he says he's done this without anyone's help. He insists he's not worried about the outbreak of disease from stagnant, corpse-infested waters.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why do they think that I am any more susceptible to disease than the soldiers that they've ordered to come evict us?
KOINANGE: He's not alone. Grady Hardy (ph) has been looking after his neighbor's houses while they fled from Katrina. But if it comes to a forced eviction, he said he'll have no choice but to leave.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Of course not. I can't resist armed force. I will verbally protest, absolutely.
KOINANGE: Meanwhile, a few blocks away, James Favreau (ph) is returning to inspect his home for the first time since the hurricane left much of his city submerged. He's been staying with friends several hundred miles away and is worried his multimillion-dollar home may have taken a big hit.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I've got an open window up here. I'm going to have to go shut that. God knows what kind of water got in there.
KOINANGE: Bob McClesky (ph) is Favreau's (ph) neighbor. He, too, is returning home for the first time and is pleasantly surprised his house is largely intact.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No windows blown out. I mean, it's just amazing.
KOINANGE: Both McClesky (ph) and Favreau (ph) say they're leaving again now that they know their houses are OK. They say New Orleans is no longer where they want their families to be.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Open door.
KOINANGE: There's a visible armed police presence everywhere in these streets. Some of these troopers come away from California and New York. There are literally thousands of National Guard troops in just about every corner of the city. A macabre reminder of a city in a state of emergency.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When they come with the M-16s to the house with their hands on the trigger, I'm not crazy. I will go.
KOINANGE: As the patrols intensify and with time running out, the city's remaining residents find themselves with two choices: leave or be forced to leave.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KOINANGE: Lou, bottom line people don't want to leave this city for two basic reasons: one, a lot of them have pets. If they leave town they don't know whether they'll be allowed to take their pets with them.
Two, if they leave town, they don't know whether their houses will be safe if they are left unattended -- Lou.
DOBBS: Jeff, thank you very much. Jeff Koinange.
Firefighters in New Orleans are stretched to the limit tonight, new fires breaking out across the devastated city. Military helicopters carrying 750 pound buckets of water moving in to battle a fierce blaze in a New Orleans home this afternoon.
One hundred firefighters from New Orleans are now battling those fires with help from 800 firefighters from all parts of the country.
But New Orleans officials say the threat of massive new fires in their city is still very real tonight. One major concern that they have is the threat of new fires from broken, underwater gas lines. And some of the fires, they admit, have been set by arsonists.
And as long as remaining survivors remain in their homes and use candles, officials say there will be a serious threat of accidental house fires.
President Bush today declared Friday, September 16, as a national day of prayer and remembrance for victims of this disaster. President Bush also announced two major new government initiatives to help survivors.
Dana Bash reports now from the White House -- Dana.
DANA BASH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, first on the national day of prayer, the White House unfortunately is well aware that the American people are likely to see in the next few days and hear about more and more stories of bodies being recovered.
Part of calling for prayer is to make sure Americans see the president understanding what's going on on the ground and also preparing Americans for more grim news and perhaps outrage among the American people about what went on.
Now, on the initiatives you talked about that the president announced today, first of all he said that every household who has been displaced ,they will get $2,000 from the government. And he also talked about the initiatives he said to cut through the red tape, primarily to make sure that those getting federal benefits like Medicaid, Medicare, unemployment will still get them.
But also made clear that people need to be patient.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We have much more work to do. But the people that have been hurt by this storm know that -- need to know that government is going to be with you for the long haul.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: Now, the big question here is how to actually confront that long haul monumental task of relocation and all of the things that the federal government is going to have to do that could take six to nine months, even longer.
The president had a flurry of meetings about this today and all week. He also met with some members of Congress, Republicans, to talk about what legislation could be needed.
And some Republicans here, Lou, came out of a meeting with the president and said that they told him that it's very important to get an outside official, somebody who's going to be down there, somebody who's very influential, who can deal with the task for the long term -- Lou.
DOBBS: Suggesting that the officials that are appointed by the government, Homeland Security Chief Michael Chertoff, FEMA Director Michael Brown, are not adequate to the task?
BASH: Well, that's certainly the question that we asked, and the answer was that they are people who have their work cut out for them in the jobs that they are doing now and that this is going to be such a huge task where you're going to need a presence, a leader on the ground for so long, that they think that somebody should be out there. No names we've heard floating around Washington, Rudy Giuliani, Colin Powell. The White House says that this is definitely something that's on the table, but they haven't made any decision yet -- Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, Dana Bash, from the White House.
President Bush today sent Vice President Dick Cheney to tour the disaster area. The vice president, now in New Orleans, inspected flood damage and the damaged levees.
Earlier, Vice President Cheney was in Gulfport, Mississippi, where he declared that emergency workers are making what he called significant progress in their search and recovery operation.
Many evacuees are in Houston. City officials today ordered a lock down at the Astrodome, however, as people started rushing to get to those new debit cards that quickly became chaos. The chaos was so great and extended that officials were forced to shut down the operation.
Betty Nguyen is live at the Houston Astrodome with the story -- Betty.
BETTY NGUYEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT/HOST: Lou, we've been under a temporary lock-down today because (AUDIO GAP) into Reliant Park to get their hands on these. It's an American Red Cross debit card. It allows up to $2,000 per family for many of these evacuees, and so many folks rushed in here to get their hands on them and wait in long lines.
Lines span all the way down the side of the building at Reliant Center. People waited for hours on end. And there was a lot of confusion over whether these cards would be available and if they're the same thing as the FEMA card.
Plus, to make matters worse, people from other shelters were coming in here when this is only supposed to be designated to evacuees at the Reliant Park area.
On top of that we have learned, though, despite the chaos, some 1,400 evacuees were given a process at least so that they would be given these debit cards today.
Now, but because of all the chaos, Lou, FEMA has decided to rethink these debit cards, which they were planning to distribute tomorrow. We have learned that, indeed, they will continue distributing debit cards tomorrow: $2,000 per family here in the Houston area at the three -- or the four main shelters.
But outside of this Houston area we've learned from a regional officer with FEMA that they've decided to rethink that, and they're going to go with electronic funds, transferring. Basically saying that they're going to electronically put the money in bank accounts or send evacuees checks.
So they've learned lessons from the chaos today and because of a lock down and they've changed the method in which they're going to use these debit cards. But as for now, all the evacuees here in Houston will be getting the debit cards. And that starts at 8 a.m. tomorrow.
One last thing: amid all this chaos, people are still looking for family members and we have a gentleman who came to us yesterday looking for his daughter. He, in fact, did find her. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE PARKER, FOUND DAUGHTER: Everyone is fine now. Everyone is located and everyone is fine and I am fine now that I know where my daughter is and she's safe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NGUYEN: That's right. That was George Parker. So excited to hear from his daughter. Indeed, she is in Arkansas, of all places.
They were in New Orleans when the water started rising in their apartment. They were luckily able to get out. Her husband had to undergo surgery, though, but they are all alive, and he is so thankful for that, Lou.
DOBBS: And Betty, that is hard -- the horror that has been Hurricane Katrina and its aftermath in which not enough attention is probably paid. And that is in addition to everything else that these victims of this hurricane are going through, the separation from their families is certainly a critical part of that. And at least in this instance, a happy ending.
Betty Nguyen, thank you very much from the Houston Superdome (sic).
Tonight there is a new hurricane threat to this country. Tropical Storm Ophelia has strengthened into the seventh hurricane of the season. It is now off the coast of Florida.
Rob Marciano is in our weather center with the very latest -- Rob.
ROB MARCIANO, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Lou, very close to the coast line of Florida, as a matter of fact. Only 70 miles now east northeast of Cape Canaveral Florida. So right about there, 70 miles this way and there you've got it.
An explosion of thunderstorms and an expansion of the cloud canopy today and the recon aircraft in there earlier this afternoon, indicating that yes, winds have now gotten to 75 miles an hour. That makes it a Category 1 storm.
Problem is it's stationary, sitting over the Gulf Stream with waters of 85 degrees plus. So that's one of the reason it has strengthened and it's one of the reason that that could be some more strengthening here in the next day or two.
This is the forecast track out of the National Hurricane Center. It is stuck. It is not moving anywhere right now, which makes it extremely difficult to forecast until we get some sort of movement.
Right now the forecast is for it to pick up a little bit of steam and head towards the northeast as a Category 1 storm for the next couple of days and then maybe even do a loop, which is not unheard of, but certainly rare, especially when you have winds -- winds as weak as they are right now.
Key areas that the National Hurricane Center has not issued a hurricane watch or warning yet. Tropical storm watches and warnings have been issued. A tropical storm warning means that tropical storm conditions expected in the next 24 hours.
But because they haven't issued a hurricane warning, in any case, they're pretty confident of this thing not jogging too far to the west to give the coastline hurricane strength conditions, at least for right now, Lou.
So we'll watch this thing where it's sitting right now and it continues to strengthen. And it could very well be a threat to the coastline of the U.S. before it's done.
Back to you. DOBBS: Rob, thank you. Rob Marciano, news that none of us wanted to hear but which we have to pay great attention to. Thank you, Rob.
Still ahead here, New Orleans residents have one last chance to leave their homes before New Orleans police force them out. I'll be talking with our senior legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin, about whether police and other authorities actually have the legal power to remove them from their homes.
And the blame game on Capitol Hill: why Congress is unable to put political bickering and partisan advantage seeking aside as they try to help disaster victims.
And the man who led New York's police response to September 11 says state and local officials are greatly to blame for the failure to respond adequately in New Orleans. I'll be talking with former New York City police commissioner, Bernard Kerik, about the breakdown next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: An extraordinary example today of how the hurricane disaster could be used by highly partisan groups on both sides of the spectrum to win political advantage.
"USA Today" reported that the liberal group MoveOn.org planned to use images from the disaster to criticize Supreme Court nominee Judge John Roberts. But MoveOn.org later insisted it never had any plans whatsoever to produce such an ad.
Kitty Pilgrim has our report -- Kitty.
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, it's really interesting how these 527s and political action groups are steering the national debate.
Today MoveOn.org, a political action group, organized a rally outside the White House with victims of the hurricane. They were chanting "shame," and their fliers read, "President Bush stop blaming the victims of Hurricane Katrina and get to work helping them."
Well, a story in "USA Today" claims that MoveOn.org was planning on running ads next week opposing judicial candidate John Roberts that would feature hurricane victims. MoveOn.org denied that story. They say, "We have no plans and have never had plans to produce such an ad."
Well, then you have the head of another group, the Family Research Council, calling a press conference, saying, "I am outraged that MoveOn.org would exploit the suffering of the people of my state and the gulf region in their ongoing campaign to destroy Judge Roberts"
Well, we spoke to "USA Today," the reporter, Mark Nemmet (ph), and he stands by his story. He finds it odd that MoveOn.org would tell him about the ads on Wednesday and then deny them on Thursday. But ad or no ad, these political groups are using the hurricane for their own political message.
DOBBS: It's extraordinary. It is unseemly on both sides of the political spectrum, we should point out, whether conservative or liberal, radically left or radically right.
It's beyond distasteful. It is -- it's lacking in civility. It is treating the American people like they're fools, as if labels are adequate to project a reality. This is absurd.
PILGRIM: It seems very transparent and certainly, the American public is capable of seeing beyond this, I think.
DOBBS: And "US Today" stands by its story?
PILGRIM: They absolutely do, and the reporter does, too.
DOBBS: Well, I thought if one, certainly the other.
Thank you very much, Kitty Pilgrim.
As politicians argue about who is to blame in the inadequate response to this disaster, as many as 15,000 New Orleans residents are tonight being ordered to leave their city or face forcible removal.
Many of those residents are stranded. But many, if not most, simply refuse to leave. Those residents are living without power. They do not have jobs. In some cases lacking refrigeration and all of the necessities of life. They remain. The threat to their health, however, is rising by the hour.
But can New Orleans or any other government entity legally force them to leave their property? We asked our senior legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin, to examine the question and he joins me now.
Jeffrey, are these authorities acting according to the law?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: They certainly are. Although, as always with the law, there are varying interpretations. But there is a specific statute that allows the governor and the mayor to do what they're doing. Maybe I could read it and we can say what it says.
It says the governor can direct and compel the evacuation of all or part of the population from any stricken or threatened area within the state if he or she deems this action necessary for the preservation of life or other disaster mitigation, response or recovery.
That would seem to cover what's available...
DOBBS: What law is that?
TOOBIN: That's just a New -- that is a Louisiana state statute on disaster relief. DOBBS: And the fact is that the talk of a mandatory evacuation order, did they also have that power before Katrina hit?
TOOBIN: They did. This was a law that was on the books before.
DOBBS: One wonders why it was not used? That is the responsibility of the mayor or the governor or both?
TOOBIN: Each. Both have separate authority. Those statutes are somewhat different, but they're basically -- offer the same power to each official.
DOBBS: Now, General Honore, the man in charge of the military down there, says his people aren't going -- his troops are not going to -- his soldiers will not be participating in forcible removal. Is that also within the...
TOOBIN: That would be within their right. You know, there's a famous old law called posse comitatus, which says that ordinary American troops cannot be used in any sort of police action within the 50 states.
However, the National Guard is exempted from that, and National Guard can always make arrests. So if General Honore wanted to order his troops to make arrests he can.
DOBBS: Jeffrey Toobin, thank you very much for laying out the law and, as always, we appreciate it.
Coming up here next, the blame game over the hurricane. It began long before any organized relief effort was actually under way along the devastated Gulf Coast, believe it or not. It is now becoming increasingly intense. We'll have the special report on that.
And then, the chairman of the Senate Terrorism subcommittee is determined to avoid a similar response in the event of a terrorist attack against this country. Senator Jon Kyl is our guest. That and a great deal more still ahead. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight, charges and counter charges about which official, whether local, state or federal, failed to do his or her part. And the charges and countercharges have become increasingly partisan and bitter.
Federal, state and local officials are doing anything they can now to assign blame, and avoid taking responsibility now for what has been universally described as a slow and inadequate response to this disaster.
Lisa Sylvester reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): After the levees broke and chaos ripped through New Orleans, Mayor Ray Nagin thrashed the federal government for not doing enough in an interview with WWL Radio's Marlin Robinette (ph).
MAYOR RAY NAGIN, NEW ORLEANS: Don't tell me 40,000 people are coming here. They're not here. It's too doggone late. Get off your asses and let's do something.
SYLVESTER: Democratic lawmakers blame the Bush administration for ignoring poor black constituents.
REP. CAROLYN KILPATRICK (D), MICHIGAN: I'm ashamed of America. I'm ashamed of our government.
SYLVESTER: Finger pointing quickly focused on Department of Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff and right below him, Federal Emergency Management chief Mike Brown, a well connected political appointee.
REP. BENNIE THOMPSON (D), MISSISSIPPI: I think Mike Brown has demonstrated that he can't handle the job.
SYLVESTER: The White House was on the defensive.
SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: There's some that are interested in playing the blame game.
This is getting into where someone engaged in a blame game.
The time for bickering and blame gaming is later.
SYLVESTER: By mid-week Republicans started openly shifting the blame to state and local leaders: Louisiana Governor Kathleen Blanco for refusing to sign over control of the National Guard to the federal government; Mayor Nagin for sending his citizens to the Superdome and convention center and not out of the city, and for his failure to move 12,000 busses that could have carried people to safety to higher ground.
REP. TOM DELAY (R-TX), MAJORITY LEADER: The emergency response system was set up to work from the bottom up, and it's the local officials trying to handle the problem. When they can't handle the problem they go to the state and the state does what they can do.
SYLVESTER: Anyone who could have prevented this is being blamed, including Congress for giving FEMA a skimpy budget; Louisiana's federal representatives for funneling Army Corps of Engineers funds to the wrong projects; even the people of New Orleans, those who didn't follow the mandatory evacuation order.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: Republican leaders in the House and the Senate say they plan to investigate what went wrong and who is to blame, but Democrats say there should be a 9/11 type of independent commission. Senate Democratic leader Harry Reid said today an investigation of the Republican administration by a Republican controlled Congress is like having a pitcher call his own balls and strikes -- Lou.
DOBBS: As if it were a game. And unfortunate, if you will, metaphor. Thank you very much. Lisa Sylvester.
Congress today approved almost $2 billion -- $52 billion, rather, in new aid for the devastated Gulf Coast. The eventual price tag for this disaster will certainly go much, much higher. Initial estimates say that it could cost the government as much as $200 billion or more.
All of this as the partisan bickering continues on Capitol Hill over just who is to blame for the slow response to this disaster.
Ed Henry is on Capitol Hill now and has the latest for us -- Ed.
ED HENRY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, to give you an idea of how fast this money is burning, the $10.5 billion relief fund that Congress funded last week has already been spent in less than a week. That's why this $52 billion is needed. It was passed by the House a couple hours ago. It's being passed by the Senate about 7 p.m. tonight Eastern Time.
But today for the first time we started hearing some tough questions by leaders in both parties about how high this price tag will be and whether or not it's a blank check.
You're hearing Republican lawmakers like Mike Pence say they're concerned. They want to see some cuts in other federal programs in order to offset all this relief money.
You're hearing Democrats like Senator Harry Reid say they're concerned that over 90 percent of the money is going to go to FEMA, the beleaguered federal agency that has had a lot of questions about its management raised. Take a listen to what they had to say today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MIKE PENCE (R), INDIANA: Let's figure out how we're going to pay for it. Congress must insure that a catastrophe of nature does not become a catastrophe of debt for our children and grandchildren.
SEN. HARRY REID (D-NV), MINORITY LEADER: First of all, the money for the relief effort goes basically to FEMA, more than 90 percent of it. After everything that has happened with FEMA, is there anyone, anyone who believes that we should continue to let the money go to FEMA and be distributed by them?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HENRY: And Senator John McCain told me that Congress could probably have a better job of finding ways to pay for this if they cut some of the pork out of the recent highway and energy bills, but obviously that's very unlikely to happen -- Lou.
DOBBS: That is a clearly partisan spin on a straightforward piece of legislation to provide over $50 billion in disaster relief. Is that a Democratic strategy? HENRY: I'm not certain about that. I mean, that's why you heard Republican Mike Pence there also raising questions, in fact...
DOBBS: No, Ed, I asked you is it a Democratic strategy? I understand that.
HENRY: Right. Eleven conservative Republicans voted against it on the floor.
In terms of the Democrats, clearly there have been allegations that they're politicizing this. We heard Harry Reid just yesterday say that the investigation into what went wrong should include whether or not the president's vacation affected the relief efforts.
You know, I don't think it's a specific Democratic strategy necessarily, but clearly, Democrats in terms of going after Michael Brown, certainly that is part of their strategy. They want to put the blame right at his doorstep.
DOBBS: The idea, whether Republican or Democrat, that this country should pay for what it -- for government programs for the disaster relief, war or welfare, is a -- is generally considered to be prudent governance. It has been honored in the breach, obviously, in recent years.
The fact is that this clash between Democrats and Republicans on Capitol Hill, Ed, the Republicans are saying just as eagerly and as quickly as Democrats in my experience here over the last week, that they're not pleased with FEMA or Michael Brown either. What is the sense there in Washington as to whether or not he will, in fact, be fired?
HENRY: I think it's almost gotten beyond Michael Brown at this point. The administration is not really not putting him out there very much. You can see Michael Chertoff and other officials being put out further. And in fact, while some Republicans, like Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist just today said that clearly the federal government, including FEMA, did not do enough early on. You're hearing other Republicans like Tom DeLay, as you heard a moment ago, trying to push it more to the state and local officials. And say that there's been too much focus on the federal government and that this is a shared responsibility, Lou.
DOBBS: Yeah. I don't think -- just for clarity of reporting, I don't think there is any doubt that the inadequate, slow response to this disaster is certainly shared by the federal, state and local governments. That shouldn't be in question. Thank you very much. Ed Henry.
Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean says race was a factor in who lived and died in Hurricane Katrina. Dean made those comments in a speech to the National Baptist Convention of America in Miami. It is one of the largest African-American religious groups in this country.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) HOWARD DEAN, DNC CHAIRMAN: Survivors are being evacuated. And as the order is restored and the water recedes, we sort through the rubble, we have to come to terms with the ugly truth that skin color, age and economics played a significant role in who survived and who did not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Dean also said many people died because in his words the federal government lacked vision. Dean later claimed he was not pointing -- let me repeat this -- he said later that he was not pointing the finger of blame.
Senator Jon Kyl of Arizona is promising to hold comprehensive hearings into just what went wrong in both the planning and the response to this hurricane disaster. As we've reported here tonight, Congress approved nearly $52 billion of new disaster aid. Some Democrats are strongly opposed as we told you to FEMA's role in distributing those funds. Some Republicans also concerned about the price tag.
Senator Kyl joins us tonight from Capitol Hill. Senator, good to have you here.
SEN. JON KYL, (R) ARIZONA: Thank you.
DOBBS: In your opinion this $52 billion, we know it's the first installment, is FEMA the right agency to distribute the money?
KYL: It's the second installment actually. And I think we really don't know whether FEMA is the right agency. But right now the entity that has to sign the contracts that a lot of this money ends up fulfilling is FEMA. That's just the way the law is set up. And so it's going to go through there.
But the House put in, and the Senate agrees, that we need to have inspectors general who will be monitoring this spending as it's occurring. And I believe that that's going to occur. So at least we'll have a good transparency in terms of where the money went and whether it was spent appropriately.
DOBBS: Senator, there has been criticism, much of it partisan in nature, but those who are looking at this response by the federal, state and local governments with clear nonpartisan eyes say that this is sickly an inadequate way for a superpower to respond to a disaster, whether a natural disaster in this case or a terrorist attack. What is your thinking? And what do you plan to do?
KYL: Well, first I have hesitate to prejudge the results of work that's going to be done by members of Congress when they look back and report in February as the speaker and the majority leader have announced. It will be a bipartisan, bicameral commission that will investigate what went wrong, and make recommendations for what needs to be done in the future.
My subcommittee deals with terrorism and Homeland Security. And what I'm going to be focusing on later after the emergency is concluded, is what would have happened had this been a terrorism event. And, indeed, there are terrorist events that could approximate what happened here, from the breach of a dam or a levee to the necessary evacuation of an area the size of New Orleans, for example.
And we're going to find out whether or not we have adequate plans. And if so, we think they can be adequately carried out. My own sense that as a result of what happened here we'll conclude we have a lot more work to do.
DOBBS: As you would -- knowing you, you would not want to prejudge in any way, because you are a careful and thoughtful public servant. But the fact is, if this were a terrorist attack, we're now four years in -- by Sunday it would be four years exactly from September 11 -- what were your thoughts as you have watched this response move forward in New Orleans? And to think it's four years from September 11?
KYL: After about a day-and-a-half, my thought was, that we are not prepared for the kind of terrorist attack that I anticipate will be attempted on us. And that's why I immediately decided we would have to look into this.
Because I think we can expect attempts at terrorism. You can easily postulate a kind of event almost -- very, very much like this. And clearly we weren't ready for this.
I think we'll find there are a lot of things that need to be sorted out. For example, the relationship between the local, state federal governments in terms of authority. My sense is the federal government was prepared to move a lot quicker than it did, because you had a local and state response that we rely upon first. Is that appropriate in every case?
These are the kind of things we're going to have to sort out. And not to point fingers and blame people, but to simply constructively understand what we need to do to make sure it never happens again.
DOBBS: Absolutely. Senator Kyl, we thank you for much for being here.
KYL: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: And for moving forward with those hearings. Thank you.
Still ahead, new concerns that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan hurt this nation's ability to respond to this hurricane disaster. I'll be talking with General David Grange about that issue.
And charges tonight that poorly run relief efforts on the Gulf Coast cost human lives. We'll have a firsthand account of the devastation and the response.
To find out how you can help the victims of Hurricane Katrina, please call the Red Cross at 1-800-HELP-NOW. That's 1-800-HELP-NOW. Or for a full list of the charities to which you can donate, please go to CNN.com. We'll continue in one moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: In the wake of Hurricane Katrina, foreign aid has poured in from all around the world. But one country sending a convoy of troops and aid is of special interest. Casey Wian has the report -- Casey.
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, we're about to show you some pictures that would have been unimaginable just a couple weeks ago. This is a convoy of Mexican Army troops crossing the Rio Grande, entering the United States. It's the first time they've been this far north since the Mexican-American war in 1846.
But these Mexican soldiers are unarmed. Some 200 are now in Texas to help provide humanitarian aid to victims of Hurricane Katrina. They've brought mobile kitchens, water treatment facilities and medical personnel.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT MCCORMACK, STATE DEPT. SPOKESMAN: It is very heartening when the United States is in a time of need that our good friends and neighbors in Mexico respond with a very generous offer. I think the fact that this is an overland convoy is symbolic of that close relationship. And we very much appreciate the Mexican people and the Mexican government coming to the aid of those who need it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WIAN: A Mexican Navy ship has also arrived in U.S. waters off Mississippi with helicopters and other search and rescue equipment.
Of course, as we've often reported, the relationship between the United States and Mexico has grown increasingly tense in recent months, mainly over the issue of illegal immigration. But for now, at least, there's a clear spirit of cooperation. We spoke with several lawmakers and other groups who've been sharply critical of the Mexican government in the past. And none of them found anything bad to say about this mission, Lou.
DOBBS: In fact, there's a great deal of good to say about this. The fact is that is a great gesture, a gesture shared by a number of other countries. Any reason why Mexico could not send this aid without sending troops?
WIAN: Not sure why they couldn't send it without sending troops, but they have an elite search and rescue team that proved itself in previous disasters in Mexico. So these were the best personnel that they thought they could send that could be of the most used to the United States -- Lou.
DOBBS: Outstanding. And our thanks go to the government of Mexico. Thank you very much. Casey Wian.
Mexico of course is not the only country sending aid to the United States after the hurricane. Here are just some of the many offers of aid from all around the world.
China has sent 600 gas generators, almost 25,000 bed sheets, and a thousand tents.
France has delivered tarps, tents and food.
South Africa sent a generator to help produce fresh drinking water.
And the list goes on.
The need is obviously great. And joining me now is our Chris Huntington. He's just returned from the coast of Mississippi from Waveland to the west to Biloxi to Pascagoula. Chris, reporting spent a week there covering the devastation, the rescue and recovery effort.
Chris, how would you describe the scene that you've just left?
CHRIS HUNTINGTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I would say up and down the Mississippi Coast the situation is stabilizing, Lou, but it is very severe in certain pockets. And that speaks to the uneven, and I would say even confused -- at times even chaotic command and control situation that's on the ground. You have immense resources that we've been detailing for a week now, flooding into the region, now Mexico sending help.
DOBBS: Absolutely. We focus greatly because the epicenter of this disaster is, of course, New Orleans where the greatest number of victims were, where the greatest number of refugees were created, nearly the entire population is now out of the city. But the entire Gulf Coast devastated.
HUNTINGTON: Talking about an area is that 75 miles in length and in many places as far as two miles inland that is blown away, flattened, or at best uninhabitable. It is an immense area.
And you think of trying to make sense and get systematic about an area that large, that is the nature of the challenge that the response effort is facing. And there are amazing efforts being made by these people. But in many cases they are redundant, they are without a mission.
Literally we asked U.S. Naval officers what is your mission here, and they didn't have a direct answer other than to say we're here to help, but we don't know exactly what we'll be doing.
Now they are finding jobs. Don't get me wrong. These people all willing to help. But the trouble is, consistently from law enforcement coming in from out of state, civilians.
DOBBS: Volunteers.
HUNTINGTON: Volunteers coming in from out of state. They're showing up and asking who's in charge. And that answer is often very delayed in coming. I'll give you a specific example that we were standing right next to a sheriff from Lansing, Michigan you see the insignia on the cars and we flagged these guys and we asked them what they're up to. Advanced scout for a convoy of relief supplies trying to find out who they could report to and where they could set up. Encountered a Biloxi police officer, asked that question. The answer not immediately forthcoming. Not that the answer doesn't exist, but they couldn't find the guy who knew where the other guy was that was in charge.
The most pointed thing that we encountered in terms of -- speaks to the disconnect that's happening throughout the region, FEMA came in to a distribution center in Biloxi and basically big footed the operation and said we want to run it and we want this to be the distribution center and people are going to come here. And the locals with local knowledge said wait a minute, folks can't get here. They can't -- we've got folks five miles away, they're not going to walk. We've got folks who have no gas, they can't drive. We need to go out to them. We know where they are. And there was an argument that we're told lasted the better part of a day about how that operation would distribute its goods.
DOBBS: Well, that's a shame. And hopefully we're beginning to see some considerable improvement in that. Certainly, we've been able to report on substantial progress. The shame is that the organization -- and as you put it, command and control has not been in place from even before the strike by Hurricane Katrina.
Chris Huntington, thank you very much.
Search teams are tonight stepping up their efforts to rescue abandoned pets in New Orleans as well. Rescue workers saying time is running out to save thousands of pets. Those pets have been without clean drinking water for more than a week, without food. They say dogs are now roaming the streets in packs looking for food.
Animal rights groups say pet rescuers were not allowed to begin their work in New Orleans until late Sunday. And they say rescue teams should have been able to move into the area much sooner to save those cats and dogs.
Still ahead here, the man who led New York City Police during September 11, a hero of September 11. I'll be joined by the former New York City Police Commissioner Bernard Kerik. We'll be discussing what the hurricane response tells him about our nation's disaster preparedness. Also, our nation's energy crisis. The price of gasoline has stopped rising, but it isn't falling. And it may take weeks for motorists to see major relief at the pump. Our special report is next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Lots of criticism tonight about the response of this hurricane at all levels of government. One major issue is whether we have enough troops to adequately respond to disasters. General David Grange joins me now to tell us in his judgment whether or not that is the case.
General Grange good to have you here. Is it or is it not a valid issue?
GEN. DAVID GRANGE, (RET) CNN MILITARY ANALYST: It is a valid issue. When you're deployed around the world at the same time, you have a major troop requirement in your homeland. And sure it's a concern. And the troops are stretched thin. But there are enough troops available to handle a disaster like this if they're employed correctly.
DOBBS: Have they been, in your judgment, deployed correctly as you put it? Because this -- it took a long time by anyone's imagination -- I know we're going to have congressional hearings, we're going to have bipartisan hearings, the fact is, this was not a super power's response to a natural disaster.
GRANGE: I believe it's a poor response. And I think the issue is you cannot force federal troops as an example on local government. You cannot force a governor to mobilize National Guard. You cannot force a neighbor states to send troops to another state unless a governor wants that.
And so it really does come from the bottom up. And you need to prepare early. You need to be prudent on early decisions.
DOBBS: General, you acknowledge that it did play a part. yet At the same time well, we heard the Defense Secretary and the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff say, not a problem. Why can't we get candor and directness in what is patently obvious to anyone?
GRANGE: Well, it's -- this mission is a national mission from local, state and federal levels. And everybody needs to respond immediately and understand their role. And it is a disconnect between -- you see a lack of candor, I think, all the way around. And that's really kind of shameful for the United States of America.
DOBBS: All I can say is amen, brother. General Grange, thanks for being here.
GRANGE: Thank you.
DOBBS: Bernard Kerik, one of the heroes of 9/11. As New York's police commissioner, Bernie Kerik helped lead the response to the terrorist attack. A response that set a standard the city of New Orleans did not meet in the wake of Hurricane Katrina.
So how much responsibility should local and state officials have in such catastrophes? Bernie Kerik is with me now.
Bernie, good to have you here.
BERNARD KERIK, FRM. NYPD COMMISSIONER: Thanks.
DOBBS: Your reaction -- there's great focus on FEMA director Michael Brown. FEMA did not distinguish itself. The federal government has not distinguished itself. Nor have the state and local governments it seems to me, at least, in the wake of this hurricane. What is your -- what are your thoughts?
KERIK: Well, I guess I would agree with the president in, you know, in saying that the response was inadequate, if you will, the federal response. And the president took action immediately to fix that. But I think the rest of the country, the entire country has to realize, an event like this, that primary responsibility lies on the local and state government. People tend to forget, they keep saying, well, what about New York, what about 9/11? I was a municipal police commissioner. Rudy Giuliani was the mayor of New York City, but he was the leader. He was the manager. We need to manage an event like this. And we had that in New York City.
DOBBS: What would have been your reaction? Reports that hundreds of New Orleans police officers simply ran from this tragedy.
KERIK: You know what, Lou, I would hope that wasn't the case, and I don't know if that's a true statement or not. We didn't see anything like that on September 11th, and I got to give the members of the New Orleans police and fire departments now that are out there working on a daily basis, they've got a tremendous job to do, a difficult job to do.
I don't understand that. You know, we had people in the hole at ground zero, all the death and destruction at ground zero, there was a time, the third day in I had to force Joe Donn (ph), my first deputy, Joe Esposito (ph), my chief of department -- I had to force them to go home for four hours to get some sleep. I don't -- I don't know if -- I'm -- hopefully that wasn't the case. If it was, I don't understand it.
DOBBS: Did you ever think you would see -- let's talk first about FEMA. Michael Brown, been calls for his resignation or his firing. How much accountability should there be?
KERIK: Well, I think there has to be accountability all the way around. I mean, from the state, local and federal level. And as somebody mentioned earlier, one of your guests said, you know, there will be hearings. Take it from me, there will be hearings, and people will Monday morning quarterback and judge this for the next 10 years.
I think every aspect of this has to be looked at. FEMA, DHS, the federal response, state and local response. Everything has to be looked at, and then the people that's responsible will make the decisions appropriately, as we would in New York City.
DOBBS: Did you think you would ever see something like this?
KERIK: You know what, Lou, it's a disaster that nobody thinks you would see. I mean, the damage, the devastation, the death. You know, but it demonstrates how important preparedness is. In a post- 9/11 world, personally my opinion -- my opinion only -- I think there were many, many things that could have been done to prevent this.
DOBBS: Bernard Kerik, as always, straight-talking. We thank you for being here.
KERIK: Thank you.
DOBBS: Another major question tonight is what has been the impact on President Bush as a result of this disaster. We asked our senior political analyst Bill Schneider to take a look into this, and Bill, what have you found?
BILL SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST: We found a big hit for President Bush's image. He's done what his father did. He went from a record high after 9/11 to record lows in his current job approval ratings. And in particular, he's taking a hit in his image as a strong leader. That was very powerful after 9/11, and now Americans haven't seen much leadership, just as Mr. Kerik said.
There's also been a shift in the agenda. Americans now give priority to domestic issues, over the war on terror, for the first time since 9/11. And that's why Democrats are coming out with the new aggressiveness because they're saying, this is our agenda now.
DOBBS: Bill, the fact is, in these polls, he is in the lowest point in nearly every poll -- I think every poll in point of fact taken recently...
SCHNEIDER: Yes, yes.
DOBBS: He's at the lowest point of his presidency. What does he do now?
SCHNEIDER: The president obviously has to show he's in charge. He has to get this situation turned around as quickly as possible, and convince Americans that he's in charge. Instead, what we're seeing in Washington is very demoralizing. Both sides are saying, we will not play the political blame game, we demand bipartisanship, and what are they doing on both sides? They're blaming each other. What kind of sense does that make?
DOBBS: Assuming that wasn't a rhetorical question, Bill, I will answer it. None whatsoever.
Bill Schneider, thank you.
SCHNEIDER: OK.
DOBBS: Still ahead, no relief for Americans at the gas pump tonight. Americans still paying more than $3 for a gallon of gasoline. We'll have that special report for you next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: AAA says gasoline prices are falling again. They say the national average is now $3.03 a gallon, that's down just about a penny. And Americans all across this country aren't expected to feel any major relief at the pump any time soon. Bill Tucker has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The good news is that our energy infrastructure is recovering, and gasoline prices are beginning to come down. But it may be a few weeks before consumers get some real relief at the pump.
MANTILL WILLIAMS, AAA: Prices will probably stabilize. They'll probably be at $3 or around $3 for self-serve regular unleaded for a while. I think before we get back to those pre-Katrina levels, it probably won't happen until around December or so. I mean, that's sort of our best in a crystal ball sort of guess.
TUCKER: More than half of the oil produced in the Gulf of Mexico remains out of production, while recovery of natural gas production is only slightly better. Six refineries in the region remain shut down, with the biggest refinery, Chevron's Pascagoula plant, not expected to be back up and producing for months.
There is some hope that refineries in Norco and Saint Rose may return to production before the end of this week. Two of the shut down refineries are back up, and they're running, in Combit (ph), Louisiana and Serevin (ph), Alabama.
The bottom line is that it will cost more to keep warm this winter, whether you heat with natural gas, electricity or home heating oil. But the Energy Information Administration does expect gasoline prices to decline.
HOWARD GRUENSPECHT, ENERGY INFORMATION ADMINISTRATION: Our medium recovery projection for gasoline is about $2.60 a gallon for the fourth quarter, which sounds a lot by historical standards, but by the prices I saw today, many people would probably welcome that. For next year, we're looking at an average of about $2.40.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: Now, who would ever thought that $2.40 a gallon would have sounded good. A lot of that scenario depends on how quickly those refineries can get back online, and Lou, Chevron's Pascagoula plant is severely damaged, and they don't know when that's coming back up.
DOBBS: $2.40 a gallon, that sounds pretty optimistic right now. I think everybody in the country would sign up for it. Bill Tucker, thank you.
Finally tonight, Pulitzer Prize winning "New York Times" reporter Judith Miller has been in prison now for 64 days for protecting her confidential sources in the White House CIA leak case.
Thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us here tomorrow. For all of us, good night from New York. A special edition of "ANDERSON COOPER 360" starts right now -- Anderson.
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