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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Hurricane Ophelia Strikes Carolinas; Residents of New Orleans Suburbs Return Home; Consumers Warned of Fraudulent Charities; Judge Rules Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional; Judge Roberts Answers Questions on Some Legal Issues
Aired September 14, 2005 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you, Wolf. Good evening, everybody.
Tonight, a major new hurricane threat. Millions of people on the eastern seaboard are in the path of Hurricane Ophelia. We'll have the latest reports for you. And the director of the National Hurricane Center will join us to give us the latest on the hurricane's direction and course.
Also tonight, a new warning about contamination flood waters in New Orleans. The water heavily polluted by dangerous levels of bacteria and toxic chemicals. A live report from New Orleans, coming up.
And an astonishing ruling by a federal judge on the Pledge of Allegiance. That federal judge declares the pledge is unconstitutional in public schools, even though the U.S. Supreme Court dismissed a case challenging the Pledge last year. We'll have that special report for you.
Two weeks after Hurricane Katrina, North Carolina tonight is taking a direct hit from Hurricane Ophelia. Ophelia remains a Category 1 hurricane, sustained winds of 85 miles an hour. But tonight, it is gaining strength and speed. As these new satellite pictures demonstrate, Ophelia is now a fully formed hurricane, some 240 miles across. And it could well linger off the North Carolina coast through tomorrow.
And a hurricane warning is up tonight for virtually all of the North Carolina coastline, where more than 50,000 residents have lost power.
Susan Candiotti is on the Outer Banks, where this storm is expected to make landfall.
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Lou -- but not until probably later tonight or the early morning hours of tomorrow do we expect to feel some strong effects from the storm.
So, so far here, people appear for the most part, in Dare County, Nags Head, to be staying in place for this Category 1 storm, although they're very much aware of what happened with Hurricane Katrina. And certainly, they're not drawing any direct comparisons. But it certainly has made them more prepared, they say, for this storm, perhaps than in the past because they're certainly used to them here. Flooding is going to be a problem, and beach erosion. Take a quick look up the shoreline here and you can see the sand dunes are built up and probably go up 20 to 30 feet. During Hurricane Isabelle, it sliced -- two years ago this week, sliced off a 30-foot drop on some of these sand dunes that you're looking at.
And the houses that you see off in the distance as well, surprisingly to me, not boarded up, but the locals say they generally don't do it for a Category 1 storm.
Swinging back around, we can also show you a pier that was built in the 1950s here in Nags Head. During Hurricane Isabelle two years ago, it took some damage, but the pilings stayed in place.
So people here are prepared, bracing themselves for a real soaking, because they are getting a real pounding down in Atlantic Beach. So they know what lies ahead.
Lou.
DOBBS: Susan, the storm is obviously starting to demonstrate some strength there, even though it is hours away. When do you expect it, as that hurricane moves north/northeast to, to hit Nags Head?
CANDIOTTI: They're talking about late tomorrow, tropical storm- force winds. Hurricane-force winds during midday tomorrow, especially on Hatteras Island. We were there earlier this day, where there was a mandatory evacuation order. Most of the tourists left. The locals, still sticking around, Lou.
DOBBS: Susan, thank you very much. Susan Candiotti reporting.
Governor Mike Easley of North Carolina has been quick to point out that more than 250 FEMA workers are already in his state to deal with this powerful storm.
Governor Easley was making every effort to ease residents' concern about the federal government's disaster response after the delayed response to Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans and the Gulf Coast. And the governor is warning his residents to take the flood threat from this storm very seriously.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. MIKE EASLEY (D), NORTH CAROLINA: If you have been asked to evacuate, please do so, because these floods are going to be worse than anticipated yesterday. And some are under mandatory evacuation, some are under voluntary evacuation. But either way, once the high winds come, we cannot get in and get you out, cannot get there by boat, cannot get there by helicopter, cannot get there by plane.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Governor Easley also said a North Carolina National Guard team of 50 troops is already moving into place. Later in the broadcast, the director of the National Hurricane Center, Max Mayfield, joins us to give us the latest assessment of Ophelia's direction.
Stunning images tonight from NASA, revealing the devastation of Hurricane Katrina on New Orleans. This is a picture of New Orleans taken before the flooding, five years ago from a NASA satellite.
The next image you see was taken just yesterday. The dark blue areas remain flooded tonight. The boundary of the flooding on the left side is the failed 17th Street Canal. The gray areas are parts of New Orleans that were flooded and are now dry.
Health officials have issued tonight a new warning about pollution in the flood waters, saying the water contains dangerous levels of bacteria and chemicals. Meanwhile, officials today allowed residents of three New Orleans suburbs to return home.
Jeff Koinange reports from New Orleans. Jeff?
JEFF KOINANGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Lou. And we must mention at the top of this that those results are preliminary, the EPA results. And they were only gotten -- the samples were only gotten in areas which were accessible, unlike where I'm standing right now, where water levels are somewhere between six and seven feet in this northern part of New Orleans.
So again, very preliminary. There were traces of lead and E. Coli in some of those waters. Officials at the end of the day saying despite the fact that they are preliminary results, they are not as bad as feared.
Speaking of those three neighborhoods, we're talking about Westwego, Lafitte and Gretna. That's in the southern part of the Mississippi River. Residents in those areas allowed to go back for the very first time, Lou.
A lot of positive changes going about. But at the same time, Lou if you look at the scenes behind me, it looks apocalyptic at best. That was a gas station back there and a fast food restaurant. This is going to take forever to drain, Lou.
DOBBS: Jeff, thank you very much. Jeff Koinange, reporting from New Orleans.
Rising concerns tonight that scam artists are trying to cash in on the huge relief effort for victims of Hurricane Katrina. Criminals are using fake Web sites to steal money that millions of Americans want to send to the survivors of the victims. And prosecutors are concerned about possible fraud in reconstruction contracts, as well.
Lisa Sylvester has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Katrina has brought out the best in people, with generous donations pouring in.
But it has also brought out the worst. This Web site reads, "Share you good fortune with Hurricane Katrina victims," but Florida's attorney general says it's a bogus charitable group. The state has since shut down the site.
Federal investigators are looking at 2,100 questionable Web sites, seeking Katrina relief services. About 60 percent of them are from overseas, a possible red flag.
CHRIS SWECKER, ASSISTANT DIRECTOR, FBI: We're working with a whole host of agencies, including and especially the Department of Justice, in trying to ferret out these scams and deal with them very quickly and get some very visible deterrents out there.
SYLVESTER: Donors should check out charities before giving, or stick with reputable agencies.
DANIEL BOROCHOFF, AMERICAN INSTITUTE OF PHILANTHROPY: The American Institute of Philanthropy at CharityWatch.org has identified top rated groups. These groups tend to get 70 percent or more of their cash budget for charitable programs and aren't spending more than $20 to raise each $100 raised.
SYLVESTER: But charity scams are not the only type of fraud the government is worried about. When the hurricanes hit Florida last year, dozens of residents and businesses filed false government claims -- rent paid for those who didn't need it, funerals covered by the government, unrelated to the hurricanes.
REP. KENDRICK MEEK (D), FLORIDA: We had a number of claims of individuals that weren't even affected by the storm, some $31 million worth of money. They heard that FEMA was giving out money. They applied for it; FEMA gave them to them.
SYLVESTER: Democrats are asking for an oversight commission to review how FEMA spends $60 billion in hurricane relief aid.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: The Department of Justice is establishing a task force of law enforcement officials to investigate Katrina related crimes, including Internet fraud, identity theft and false government claims.
Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you, Lisa Sylvester.
Still ahead here a second day of tough questions for Supreme Court Chief Justice nominee Judge John Roberts. A leading member of the Senate Judiciary Committee.
Also tonight, a federal judge challenges the U.S. Supreme Court by declaring the Pledge of Allegiance to be unconstitutional in our public schools. We'll have that special report for you.
And live update on Hurricane Ophelia's escalating threat to millions of people along the East Coast. And the director of the National Hurricane Center joins us to give us the hurricane's direction and its expected force. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The Pledge of Allegiance was declared unconstitutional today by a U.S. district court judge in San Francisco. The judge's ruling makes it almost certain that the U.S. Supreme Court will for a second time take up this politically charged issue of church and state separation.
Casey Wian reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I pledge allegiance to the flag...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I pledge allegiance to the flag...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I pledge allegiance to the flag...
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In a ruling even he admits will satisfy no one involved in the debate, Federal Judge Lawrence Carlton says the reciting of the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools is unconstitutional. His ruling is the latest twist in a five-year legal battle by Michael Newdow, the atheist father of three California school children.
Even though those children are only required to listen to but not actually recite the pledge, the Carter-appointed judge ruled children have the right to be free from a coercive requirement to affirm God.
ROBERT BOSTON, AMERICANS UNITED: This ruling isn't going to be very popular with the American people, I'm sure, but I think the judge made the right call. This is such a controversial issue, and it comes at a time when we're already struggling with so many divisive culture war issues. But in a way, this is really just throwing more gasoline on those fires.
WIAN: While U.S. currency and the chambers of the U.S. Senate both contain the words "in God we trust," the words "under God" were added to the Pledge of Allegiance by Congress in 1954.
For now the ruling only applies to three California school districts. Religious groups plan to appeal to the Ninth Circuit. And if it's upheld there, it's likely to end up in the Supreme Court.
Some say the ruling makes John Roberts, a strong opponent of judicial activism, a lock for chief justice.
MATTHEW SPALDING, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: This is a very surprising ruling coming down as it does this very moment. It's on some weak legal grounds, but I think in the end, what it tells us is that John Roberts will be the next chief justice of the United States. This just reminds people of the kinds of judicial things that are going on.
(END VIDEOTAPE) WIAN: The assumption is with John Roberts as chief justice, it's almost unthinkable that the Supreme Court would rule the Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional, Lou.
DOBBS: And the district court judge, Casey, made it clear he was following what he considered to be the law as set forth in the rulings of the Ninth Circuit Court, is that correct?
WIAN: That is correct. And this issue has been to the Supreme Court before, but they didn't rule on the merits of the case. They threw it out, because the plaintiff did not have legal custody of his daughter. So they've added a couple other families to this suit and now it looks like it will end up in the Supreme Court to be ruled on once and for all, Lou.
DOBBS: And the Ninth Circuit Court, considered to be the most liberal of all of the appellate courts in the country, and also the one most often reversed.
WIAN: Absolutely.
DOBBS: Casey, thank you. Casey Wian.
In our poll tonight, we want to know what you think about this ruling. Do you believe the two words "under God" render the Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional? Yes or no? Cast your vote at LOUDOBBS.com. We'll have the results coming up.
Supreme Court Chief Justice nominee John Roberts today assured senators during his confirmation hearings that if confirmed, he will not decide court cases according to his personal views and beliefs.
Judge Roberts attempted to ease some fears that he will decide cases on the basis of ideology, while at the same time refusing again to reveal his issue -- his views on those key issues.
Joe Johns reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOE JOHNS, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Day two of the Senate questioning. Judge Roberts was still going strong and being careful, especially on sensitive legal questions, about the beginning and the end of life.
SEN. TOM COBURN (R), OKLAHOMA: Would you agree that the opposite of being dead is being alive?
JUDGE JOE ROBERTS, SUPREME COURT CHIEF JUSTICE NOMINEE: Yes. Again.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pulled it out of him.
ROBERTS: Don't mean to be overly cautious in answering.
JOHNS: Both sides agreed the federal appeals court judge has a vast knowledge of the law, but he often refused to expose his own views. One Republican senator urged him to keep it personal.
SEN. MIKE DEWINE (R), OHIO: Great justices are more than just legal automatons, legal technicians. They're more than just that. And though they lose their individuality when they put on a black robe, great justices never forget who they are.
JOHN: Democrat Joe Biden was blunt, telling Roberts the Senate was being asked to roll the dice on him.
SEN. JOE BIDEN (D), DELAWARE: So you've told me nothing, Judge. With all due respect, you've not -- look, this is -- it's kind of interesting, this Kabuki dance we have in these hearings here, as if the public doesn't have a right to know what you think about fundamental issues facing them.
ROBERTS: Judges don't stand for election. I'm not standing for election. And it is contrary to the role of judges in our society to say that this judge should go on the bench, because these are his or her positions.
JOHNS: Still, Roberts did shed light in some areas. On the right of local governments to take and bulldoze private property and turn it over to private developers, a controversial case just decided by the court, Roberts said it should be up to the Congress to decide what the law will be.
ROBERTS: Legislative bodies in the states are protectors of the people's rights.
JOHNS: On a federal court ruling Wednesday, banning reciting the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools because it contains the words "under God," Roberts said the court should...
ROBERTS: Redouble its efforts to try to come to some consistency in its approach.
JOHNS: And on the issue of media access to cover the Hurricane Katrina disaster without government interference, he seemed to side with the press.
ROBERTS: If it's a situation in which the public is being given access, you can't discriminate against the media.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
JOHNS: There had been some hope that the committee could wrap up its questioning tonight, but it does not look like that's going to happen. Democrats do have some questions that could spill over into tomorrow morning. Republicans on the committee have said they're going to withhold further questioning in the interest of moving this process along.
Lou.
DOBBS: And that apparently bodes well for Judge Roberts' confirmation chances, does it not? JOHNS: It certainly seems that well -- way. Talking to a number of even Democrats, they say it's been very difficult to lay a glove on John Roberts. He's very good, they say, on technical issues, answering questions, very skillful, in fact.
DOBBS: Right.
JOHNS: Republicans think he's the right guy for the job, Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, Joe Johns from Capitol Hill.
Our senior legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin, joins me now with his insight into today's hearings for Judge Roberts.
Jeffrey, I was struck, first of all, by the civics lesson, if you will, that Judge Roberts gave Senator Biden on an independent judiciary. Were you struck by that?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, yes. And that exchange really summed up, I think, the frustration of the Democrats here.
And you can see both sides of the argument, because, you know, Joe Biden was saying, come on. You're going to be one of the most important people in the country for the next 30 years, and we're not learning anything about you.
And Judge Roberts said, well, that's just the point, is that we are not running for office. We don't have a platform. All you're entitled to know is that we are fair and, you know, are within the mainstream of American judicial thought.
Both points are good. The Republicans have the votes.
DOBBS: Senator Lindsay Graham, Jeff, who will be my guest here later in the broadcast, said really it's a test here of whether or not Reagan conservatism is mainstream. Do you concur?
TOOBIN: I think there's a lot to that that. You know, he's a conservative. And you know, the country's pretty conservative. There are 55 Republicans in the Senate. He's going to get all of their votes and then some. That is, you know, the mainstream.
We used to talk about the 2000 election, that the country was divided right down the middle. Well, the country's not divided right down the middle anymore. The Republicans have a slight but a real advantage, and that's why he -- Bush is president and that's why Roberts is going to get confirmed.
DOBBS: And that's why we have elections, as they say.
TOOBIN: Indeed.
DOBBS: Judge Lawrence Carlton, holding that the Pledge of Allegiance is unconstitutional. Do you feel like we've been here before? TOOBIN: Deja vu all over again. I think, you know, what's happening here is this case will finally be argued on the merits. You know, it was thrown out on procedural grounds, on the ground that the person who brought it didn't have custody of his daughter. But I really think this is going to be put to rest, and the Pledge of Allegiance will remain intact.
You know, the Supreme Court of the United States, they begin each day with the saying "God save the United States and this honorable court."
"In God we trust" is all over our currency.
"Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance is very much, I think, in that tradition, and the courts have upheld all those other nondenominational endorsements. And I think this will be upheld, too.
DOBBS: This judge, this federal judge saying that the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals has really tied his hands, and this is the only way he can decide that case. Is that really the case?
TOOBIN: I think there are other ways it could have come out. But it is true that he is a district court judge in the Ninth Circuit. And the Ninth Circuit is the boss of federal district court judges in Sacramento, where he sits.
Other judges could have come out another way. The real answer is for the Ninth Circuit to look at this issue again.
DOBBS: The most reversed circuit in the country.
TOOBIN: The longstanding title holder of that particular distinction.
DOBBS: God save the honorable court, nonetheless.
TOOBIN: Right.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, Jeffrey Toobin.
TOOBIN: All of them.
TOOBIN: Coming up next, Hurricane Ophelia is coming ashore. We'll have a live report for you.
Plus the latest on how long this storm will be pounding the Carolina coast, where it's headed next. Max Mayfield, the director of the National Hurricane Center, joins us.
And then, did former FEMA Director Mike Brown get a free pass when he was nominated for that agency? Some Democrats who recently blasted his performance as the head of FEMA are now struggling to explain their quick approval of his nomination. We'll have that story for you and a great deal more, straight ahead.
Stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Hurricane Ophelia is tonight charging toward a Carolina coast. Officials have ordered mandatory evacuations in some areas. And FEMA workers and National Guard troops are on standby.
Rob Marciano is in Atlantic Beach. Rob, it looks like the storm has arrived.
ROB MARCIANO, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Absolutely, Lou. It's the worst it's been. We've been getting respites. Actually, we're in one right now. So that's good. They come in waves, as you know, before the eye actually gets here. The eye, by the way, is that way by about 40 miles and heading in this direction.
Earlier this evening, about an hour ago or even less than that, the end of this pier was torn off by the surf. Take a look at the video we shot. This pier, probably 80 or 90 yards long, it goes deep into the ocean. And the end of the pier just ripped apart, probably about a 20-yard chunk of it, and then taken out into the Atlantic Ocean. Unbelievable to watch the power of the ocean and Ophelia tear apart at this pier.
Now, we're on that same pier, yes, but we're all the way towards the sand where it's anchored into the sand dune. We're getting close to hurricane-strength winds at this point. Actually, off in the distance, I can see some roof tiles now being torn off.
Look down here. About an hour and a half ago, we were at high tide. This tide has not receded, which indicates we're getting a little bit of the storm surge and that will continue for the next four to six hours.
What's different here, Lou, as compared to the Gulf of Mexico, is the Outer Banks, most of them have protective sand dunes. You really need a surge of 10 to 12 feet to breach that. So that's not -- that shouldn't be an issue. And we've got an easy access route if we need to get out of here.
Right now, though, it seems like winds are gusting at least close to hurricane strength, Lou, and the storm, the center of it, at least, still about 40 miles away.
DOBBS: Well, Rob, thank you very much for bringing us up to date. And I know that you will be taking good care of yourself. But nonetheless, we're going to add our voice to that concern. Take care of yourselves there and all the best.
The director of the National Hurricane Center, Max Mayfield, joins me now from his headquarters in Miami. Max, this storm, while a Category 1, it looks plenty powerful to me.
MAX MAYFIELD, DIRECTOR: NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER: It is. In fact, Lou, we just had a report in of a gust to hurricane-force at Cape Lookout, which is a little to the east of where Rob is in Atlantic Beach. And you can see the eye wall here on the Morehead City radar. The inner eye wall is just about to get to the Cape Lookout and Atlantic Beach area. And then the winds will actually diminish here, over Rob, for you know, a few hours, and then he'll have the back side to deal with.
It's a slow moving hurricane, and it's really going to take all night and most of the day tomorrow to get through the Outer Banks.
DOBBS: Now, Max, as a Category 1 storm, it is moving slowly, and a foot of rain has already been dropped in that area. It's heading to Nags Head, where our colleague, Susan Candiotti, is posted, as well.
Does this mean we're going to see significantly more rainfall than normally a Category 1 storm would bring with it?
MAYFIELD: You know, it's interesting. There's really no good correlation between the intensity of hurricane and the amount of rainfall. It really has more to do more with forward motion. And as you say, this is moving so slowly that I'm sure we'll have some isolated amounts of up to 15 inches or so.
There's an important message there. The National Weather Service has a program, "Turn Around, Don't Drown." Let's not make the same mistake we made in past hurricanes, having people driving their cars through flooded out roadways, being swept away to their death.
DOBBS: And the governor of North Carolina has made it clear to his citizens to take flooding very seriously and to prepare against it as you're suggesting. What is your expectation here? What areas are going to be hardest hit as a result of this storm?
MAYFIELD: Well, the swath of hurricane-force winds will likely be right along the Outer Banks themselves and going over portions of the Pamlico and Albemarle Sound here. But we don't have to have hurricane- force winds to knock signs down, trees down and cause power outages. And likely the tropical storm-force winds will impact this extreme eastern portion of North Carolina.
What we're also very concerned with here -- and we want people to understand this -- the storm surge. I'm sure the people in the Outer Banks have the drill down here. Four, or five, or six feet of storm surge along the Outer Banks here.
But as long has as that flow is on shore, it's going to push water into the Pamlico Sound and up these rivers here. Everything you see here in red, we could have nine to 11 feet of storm surge there. This is the Noose and the Pamlico River.
And then it's also really important, as it moves away from the Outer Banks, when the winds coming out of the north, that would cause some flooding from the sound side over Ocracoke and Cape Hatteras, Hatteras Island.
DOBBS: Max Mayfield, we thank you. And Max, while you're here, I just want to -- all of us want to compliment you on the great job that you and your staff at the National Hurricane Center did just about three weeks ago in forecasting Katrina. You were absolutely accurate and gave terrific early warning to all who would listen.
MAYFIELD: Thank you very much, sir. You're welcome.
DOBBS: Max Mayfield from the National Hurricane Center.
Turning now to the Gulf Coast, which is still struggling to recover from Hurricane Katrina almost three weeks after the storm hit, Louisiana officials say the death toll in that state has now risen again to 474. That's up from 423 -- 423 deaths accounted for yesterday.
Deborah Feyerick joins us now with the very latest status alert. Deborah?
DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the first status alert we're going to be talking about is the Louisiana governor, Kathleen Blanco, getting ready to give a speech an hour from now. She's going to be addressing the legislature. And she'll talk about how she handled the emergency response. She is asking for lots of money from the federal government. We don't know exactly how much yet. But it will to go rebuilding homes, businesses, schools and hospitals.
Status alert, more criminal charges, maybe. The attorney general for Louisiana investigating whether hospitals and nursing homes followed evacuation procedures and did everything they could to get patients to safety before the hurricane hit. Forty-five people were found dead at Memorial Hospital in New Orleans. Staff there without power, food, or water during the entire storm and days after. Yesterday, the owners of a nursing home were charged with 34 counts of negligent homicide after residents there were left to drown.
That tops our status alert. Of course, anyone with any information on an affected area can e-mail us here at StatusAlert@CNN.com.
Lou.
DOBBS: Deborah, thank you very much. Deborah Feyerick.
New controversy tonight surrounds the tenure of former FEMA Director Mike Brown. It turns out many of the very people publicly blasting Brown's performance are the very same people who played a significant, critical role in his winning the job in the first place.
Ed Henry has the story from Capitol Hill.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ED HENRY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Democrats have acted surprised and outraged that the president's FEMA director had next to no experience.
REP. NANCY PELOSI, (D-CA) MINORITY LEADER: He appointed a person to head FEMA who had absolutely no credentials. HENRY: But Democrats were running the Senate when Brown was easily confirmed as FEMA's deputy director in June 2002. The Democrat in charge of the confirmation hearing, Joe Lieberman, declared he would support Brown because of his -- quote -- "extensive management experience."
Only four of 17 senators on the committee showed up for that hearing, which lasted only 42 minutes. With no tough questions about Brown's nine years running an Arabian horse association.
When pressed by CNN about whether he did a tough enough job scrutinizing Brown, Lieberman put the onus on the president.
SEN. JOE LIEBERMAN, (D) CONNECTICUT: The president has earned the right to make the choice of who he wants to serve him. Congress has to decide not whether I would have chosen the person, but whether the person is acceptable for the job. And at that point, he sure looked like it.
HENRY: Lieberman noted Brown's resume suggested back in the late 70s he was in charge of emergency services in a small Oklahoma town -- a claim now in question.
LIEBERMAN: In the aftermath of the last week, I'd say information that it seems to either consciously or unconsciously, there was an element of his resume that was wrongly stated, that suggested he had more background in emergency management.
HENRY: Some senators acknowledged Democrats could have been tougher.
SEN. FRANK LAUTENBERG, (D) NEW JERSEY: The majority did a bad job. That's what I think.
HENRY: Other Democrats defended their level of oversight. But in retrospect, 42 minutes is an easy amount of scrutiny.
SEN. DANIEL AKAKA, (D) HAWAII: That's for one person, that's an appropriate time.
HENRY: Senate Democrats also allowed the president to elevate Brown to director of FEMA without a second confirmation hearing when the agency was folded into the Department of Homeland Security. Lieberman is now vowing to be much tougher.
LIEBERMAN: Needless to say the replacement for Michael Brown will receive quite a hearing.
HENRY: But about an hour before Lieberman made that very promise, his Homeland Security Committee was considering four other nominees, including one who will be crafting labor policy for the Homeland Security Department. Most lawmakers only had staff at the hearing. Many senators themselves, including Lieberman, were absent.
Ed Henry, CNN, Capitol Hill.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: House Majority Leader Tom DeLay today claimed victory in the war on pork barrel spending and efficiency in government. Congressman DeLay said that Republicans have done such a good job in cutting federal spending that there is simply nowhere else for Congress to cut.
Congressman DeLay made his remark as he defended the Republicans decision to borrow money to pay for Hurricane Katrina relief. That borrowing would add to this year's projected federal budge deficit of $331 billion. Certain to go higher, and certainly to be examined in terms of efficiency.
Coming up next here, carnage in Baghdad. A wave of deadly coordinated attacks, Iraq moving closer to civil war. We'll have the special report.
And behind the handshakes, major new tensions in the relationship between the United States and China over the spread of nuclear weapons.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Iraq tonight is on the brink of civil war. Radical Islamist terrorists today killed more than 160 people in a wave of coordinated bomb attacks in Baghdad. Tonight, al Qaeda's leader in Iraq has declared war on the country's majority Shiite population.
Our Jamie McIntyre reports from the Pentagon.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Pentagon officials say they're taking at face value the Internet claim of Iraq's al Qaeda leader Abu Musab al Zarqawi that he's behind a series of more than a dozen deadly attacks. They included a suicide car bombing in Baghdad that targeted day laborers lured by the prospect of work, and the execution-style slaying of 17 men in a village north of the Capitol, who were handcuffed, blind-folded and shot by men wearing military uniforms, according to Iraqi police.
A posting on a militant Web site claimed the attacks, the deadliest since the war began, were in retaliation of the current U.S. Iraqi offensive in northern Iraqi city of Tal Afar, where U.S. commanders say Zarqawi's followers are being routed.
COL. H.R. MCMASTER, 3RD ARMORED CALVARY REGIMENT: So, is Tal Afar secure? No. It's not secure. Is the enemy on the run in Tal Afar? Yes. The enemy is on the run.
MCINTYRE: So far this month, the U.S. military says more than 200 insurgents have been killed in Tal Afar and several hundred captured in an ongoing operation conducted by nearly 5,000 Iraqi forces and 3,500 U.S. troops. But U.S. commanders across Iraq, including in the northern town of Mosul, insist the Zarqawi network's tactic of killing large numbers of civilians is backfiring.
MCMASTER: I will tell you, I've never seen anything like the people's response to it. It was really something that they absolutely were fed up.
MCINTYRE: U.S. commanders say they're getting more help than ever from Iraqis, identifying insurgents. And that many of the bombers and their leaders, who have been captured, are talking.
MCMASTER: One of the great pieces of information we got recently is 80 percent of the al Qaeda network in the North has been devastated. And those are not our figures, those came from the last six leaders in Mosul, al Qaeda leaders that we captured. They informed us of that.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: In fact, the U.S. military says that a letter found after one Zarqawi lieutenant was killed described to Zarqawi the desperate situation faced by the insurgency in the North.
Still, these attacks show that the insurgents are still capable of killing hundreds of people at a time. And Pentagon officials believe that Zarqawi's goal is to try to incite a civil war between his Sunni followers and the Shi'a who are working with the U.S. and the new Iraqi government.
Lou.
DOBBS: This is nothing less than a civil war, is it, Jamie, if Zarqawi is, indeed, legitimately saying that he's taking on the entire Shi'a population?
MCINTYRE: And he's told his followers it's OK to attack women and children in the process as well.
But what U.S. commanders have said -- and we talked to several of them over the last couple days -- is they're really getting a sense of the Iraqi population is turning against that. And in fact, they say they're getting more help than ever, more calls coming in, more people identifying them. They really sense that there's a feeling among the population that the violence is just not going to be tolerated any more. But whether it results in an all-out civil war, the old cliche, time will have to tell.
DOBBS: Well, one would have also thought, of course, that the Iraqi people would have tired of the senseless violence much sooner. Jamie McIntyre from the Pentagon, thank you.
President Bush today focused on the global war on terror during his appearance at the United Nations. President Bush called upon all UN members to introduce laws to stop terrorists and to deny terrorists any refuge.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We have a solemn obligation to stop terrorism in its early stages. We have a solemn obligation to defend our citizens against terrorism, to attack terrorist networks and deprive them of any safe haven, to promote an ideology of freedom and tolerance that will refute the dark vision of the terrorists.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Some UN Members, of course, will pay no attention to President Bush. Both Syria and Iran, for example are, in the view of the US military and State Department, harboring terrorists who are launching attacks within Iraq.
Another key issue facing President Bush in the escalating nuclear crisis with North Korea and Iran. Yesterday, President Bush tried to convince the President Hu of China to support tough measures against both countries, but China refuses to cooperate with the United States.
Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In Beijing today, six-party nuclear talks over North Korea deadlocked, another day without any progress. Some experts say China is playing host, but isn't pushing hard for a solution.
PETER LEITNER, CTR. FOR ADVANCED DEFENSE STUDIES: China is doing what China wants to do. And China is pursuing its own course, its own foreign policy. It has its own view of the world. It's accommodating US interests to the extent that -- to the minimum extent that it needs to.
PILGRIM: Smiles and diplomatic niceties when President Hu met President Bush in New York this week. But read between the lines. President Hu spoke of a nuclear weapons-free Korean peninsula. The word weapons is key. The Bush administration wants North Korea to have no nuclear projects at all, civilian or military, simply because North Korea can't be trusted.
On Iran, again no Chinese support. The reason why -- China is cutting deals for its own oil supply all over the globe. China imports some 15 percent of its oil from Iran and wants to step up imports of Iranian natural gas. Experts say for that reason, and others, China may try to block the IAEA from referring Iran to the Security Council over its nuclear projects.
HENRY SOKOLSKI, NONPROLIFERATION POLICY EDUC. CTR.: If you depend entirely on China, you're going to fail. It just comes at a time that is embarrassing, because the president is trying to get the matter of North Korea resolved through six-party concurrence, which includes the Chinese. And in the case of Iran, he needs the Security Council and Chinese to vote with us. And it looks like he's not going to get that.
(END VIDEOTAPE) PILGRIM (on camera): Now the Bush administration says neither Iran nor North Korea should have nuclear programs to generate power. Both countries are insisting. The US negotiator in the North Korea talks says there are not too many other ways I know how to say no. The Chinese, however, are not willing to say no to either North Korea or the Iranians.
DOBBS: Well, there was some good news today, President Hu promising President Bush that he too thinks the trade imbalance with the United States is a difficult problem and a source of potential and real friction and he's willing to work with the United States. Kitty, thank you very much.
Back in this country, two of the largest airlines today have filed for bankruptcy. Both Delta and Northwest have been struggling with rising fuel costs and competition from discount carriers and outright mismanagement. They join United Airlines and US Airways, both of which filed for bankruptcy after the September 11 terrorist attacks.
These new filings mean that four of the nation's top seven airlines -- more than half -- are now operating under bankruptcy protection, and the airline industry in significant trouble, obviously.
Coming up next here, Judge John Roberts appears headed for easy confirmation following a second day of testimony before the Senate Judiciary. Senator Lindsey Graham of that committee joins us next.
And then "Red Storm Rising". Hundreds of billions of dollars of counterfeit Chinese goods are flooding into this country. The White House promises to take action. We'll have that special report. Hold your breath and stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: My next guest, Senate Judiciary Committee member Senator Lindsey Graham, says he admires Judge Roberts more than ever after these hearings for the way come in which he's handled himself. Senator Graham joins us tonight from Capitol Hill. You said Judge Roberts, Senator, has refused to - quote -- "bargain his way out of the Supreme Court." He didn't really have much choice, did he, if he were going to get on that court?
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: Well, what he's refused to do is commit to any senator on either side of the aisle that I will give you an indication of how I'll rule on your pet legal project to get on the court. He's maintained his judicial independence. He's answered questions in general, but hasn't taken the debate to tell us how he'll decide an emotional case, and I think he's right to do so.
DOBBS: Senator if I may say, your statement at the beginning of these confirmation hearings, addressing your colleagues as well as Judge Roberts, talking -- taking responsibility for the Republicans' overly vigorous partisanship during hearings when the Democrats were in control -- I thought that a good antidote to that today was to put forward a man of Judge Roberts' obvious talent. He gave Senator Biden a civics lesson, did he not, on an independent judiciary?
GRAHAM: I'm going to apply for a master's degree in constitutional law after these hearings. We've had 18 hours-plus. He's testified longer than Justice Breyer. He has the most brilliant legal mind I've ever personally known. It has been a pleasure and a joy to watch him operate in the committee. And I'm very proud of the way the Senate has conducted itself.
Our Democratic friends have been tough and probing, but I think they've been fair. And Justice Roberts -- soon to be Justice Roberts is an amazing man.
DOBBS: As you say, some people do deserve a master's degree in going through this and certainly, you would qualify, I'm sure, if any is to receive one. But this confirmation, you've said that these hearings are really more about the fact that -- the negative aspects at least are about the fact that Judge Roberts served in the Reagan administration. Is that enough for any senator, any of your colleagues to vote against him, solely on that basis?
GRAHAM: Well, I believe that Ronald Reagan is in the mainstream of America still, and that Reagan conservatism is certainly a legitimate point of view to have and that Justice Ginsberg, who sits on the court today, was the general counsel for the American Civil Liberties Union, not high on the conservative food chain.
But she is a brilliant, well-educated legal mind and a good person, so it's good we don't hold political philosophy or clients against potential candidates. Justice Ginsburg deserved 96 votes. She's a talented person. I think Judge Roberts deserves overwhelming confirmation. And working for Ronald Reagan is a good thing in my opinion.
DOBBS: And a federal district court judge you know ruling unconstitutional the Pledge of Allegiance because of the two words "under God." What do you think? What do you think of that?
GRAHAM: It's a gift from the political gods for us, because it highlights what we're trying to do here is to put strict constructionists on the court who will protect us from the government imposing a religion upon us, but not take -- declare war on all things religious. I think it's an absurd ruling most Americans will find to be unbelievable and the Supreme Court will eventually straighten it out. And I hope Judge Roberts is there to be part of it.
DOBBS: Lindsey Graham, we appreciate it. Senator, thank you very much.
A reminder now to vote in our poll. Do you believe the two words "under God", render the Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional? Yes or no. Please cast your vote at LOUDOBBS.com. We'll have the results coming up here in just a few minutes.
Just ahead now, skepticism about China's promises to crack down on intellectual piracy -- a special report. And a shocking free trade offer from President Bush. We'll tell you about his latest promise to countries that want to export their goods into this country. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight, the presidents of the United States and China have promised to cooperate in cracking down on rampant piracy in China. In Beijing, the Bush Administration's new anti-piracy czar is demanding that China do more to enforce intellectual property rights. The promises and the tough talk are being met with justifiable skepticism.
Christine Romans reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Chinese President Hu Jin Tao is promising he will protect intellectual property rights. He's got a lot of work to do.
DICK D'AMATO, U.S. CHINA COMMISSION: It's become a central part of their economy, and particularly for the provinces that rely on whole factories that actually reproduce the goods, everything from American cars to toothpaste, high technology, movies. Ninety percent of all copyrighted materials in China are pirated. So I don't know whether Hu Jin Tao can do it.
ROMANS: Software, movies, drugs, any product designed and made by American companies is knocked off and openly sold in China and exported all over the world. The U.S. trade representative estimates Chinese piracy costs U.S. business $250 billion a year, and may file a complaint with the World Trade Organization. China has promised reform before, but enforcement is weak.
MYRON BRILLIANT, U.S. CHAMBER OF COMMERCE: We're seeing, certainly, more public recognition of the importance of cracking down, but that recognition has got to translate into specific deeds and actions at the local provincial level. We haven't seen that yet.
ROMANS: The Chamber of Commerce calls Chinese piracy an epidemic. It wants more criminal convictions of intellectual property violators. Another trade group laments that China can round up and jail thousands of members of Falun Gong in a day, but economic crimes go unpunished. Indeed, China's fines for piracy are so small they're seen as simply a tax, the cost of doing business.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS (on camera): American business calls this the number one issue in Chinese relations. Ironically, it's American business that's hungry for this growing market -- lobbying on behalf of China in Washington, moving manufacturing facilities there, laying off American workers by the thousands in favor of cheap Chinese labor. A bit of a disconnect when they complain about piracy. DOBBS: The Chamber of Commerce has suddenly awakened to some of these issues. The National Association of Manufacturers, meanwhile, tens of thousands of jobs being lost, and no one's noticed that $250 billion are being ripped out of our economy? I mean, good grief.
ROMANS: The United States might file a complaint.
DOBBS: I think that is just so courageous on the part of this administration. Plaudits to them across, universally. Thank you.
More evidence that President Bush is a true believer in free trade at almost any cost. Speaking at the U.N. General Assembly, President Bush offered to drop U.S. trade barriers to countries that would do the same. This country, by the way, on its way to a $700 billion trade deficit.
Bill Tucker has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): It was the trade equivalent of you show me yours, and I'll show you mine.
BUSH: The United States is ready to eliminate all tariffs, subsidies and other barriers to free flow of goods and services, as other nations do the same.
TUCKER: But there's a serious flaw in the president's reasoning.
JIM SCHOLLAERT, AMER. MANUF. TRADE ACTION COALITION: The effective tariff in the U.S. is already a very low 1.6 percent for an average of all industrial goods. The average for the rest of the world is much higher. And we could start out by telling the rest of the world, first of all, come on down to our level and then we'll talk.
TUCKER: In other words, we've been showing ours all along. Bush made his proposal before the UN General Assembly, saying that free trade is the surest way to enrich developed economies and lift workers out of poverty in developing countries. Critics quickly point out that model is false.
ROBERT SCOTT, ECONOMIC POLICY INSTITUTE: It has completely failed to do that. In Mexico, we've seen real wages for working people fall since NAFTA, despite the growth of the economy. In the U.S., we've lost over a million jobs just due to growing trade deficits with NAFTA.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER (on camera): Rather than negotiating agreements for the good of other countries, trade critics say we should be negotiating agreements unapologetically, Lou, which protect our own national interests.
DOBBS: How unevolved of them. Don't they have a broader concern? My goodness. What a radical idea. Operating in the interest of Americans. Goodness. Bill Tucker, thank you. Maybe the idea will catch hold somewhere.
The results of our poll tonight, split down the middle. Half of you say the two words "under God", render the Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional. The other half of you say, well, not so.
We'll be right back. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: As of tonight, "New York Times" Pulitzer Prize-winning reporter Judith Miller has been in prison for 70 days, 10 weeks, for protecting her confidential sources in the White House CIA leak case.
Thanks for being with us tonight. For all of us here, good night from New York.
ANDERSON COOPER 360 starts right now. Anderson?
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